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176 comments

No big loss (5, Insightful)

colinrichardday (768814) | about a year ago | (#42574761)

Not that I wanted Windows RT

Re:No big loss (5, Insightful)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about a year ago | (#42574915)

This makes complete sense.

Why should Samsung expend resources to push a platform that will likely have the third best market share in Mobile OSes. They need to concentrate on keeping Android the best mobile platform.

Re:No big loss (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575115)

"Why should Samsung expend resources to push a platform that will likely have the third best market share in Mobile OSes."

They don't want to sell to a bunch of Hicks and Rednecks who prefer buying assault rifles for hunting.

Re:No big loss (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575505)

They don't want to sell to a bunch of Hicks and Rednecks who prefer buying assault rifles for hunting.

That way they can focus on morons from all over the rest of the world... !!!

Windows RT is the useless result of Microsoft getting a huge woodie after seeing the Apple App Store. (30%... 30%, rub, rub, rub...)
They swooned and said, "I want some of that!" They then ran out and eviscerated the worlds largest and most entrenched desktop OS to optimize it for use only on handhelds instead of trying to bring the raw, powerful usability of the desktop to the handheld market.

Idiots... Attention makers of desktop OSes: Huge strategic opening here! Get busy!!!

Re:No big loss (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575893)

Finally, the opening that Hurd has been waiting for!

Re:No big loss (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576515)

Just think it will only take them 20 years or so to port a working display driver.

Re:No big loss (4, Informative)

aaarrrgggh (9205) | about a year ago | (#42575269)

Arguably, this is not true. Samsung has a vested interest in being the brand consumers associate with mobile products; the more they build up any one OS, the less their individual brand grows. They need to balance the risk that Google poses with Motorola with their association with Android.

However, Microsoft doesn't offer them any improvement over developing their own platform, since they can't create a Samsung "look and feel" on that platform.

Re:No big loss (5, Insightful)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#42575369)

I am sure they will sell Windows tablets just not Windows RT tablets.

You got to look at it this way. Windows RT exists only as a way for Microsoft to be price competitive and hopefully squeeze Android out without being seen as cannibalizing their higher priced higher margin product Windows. Microsoft biggest fear is droid or some Linux variant successfully moving "up market" and being sold on anyone's top line hardware because if the market place embraces it well, the value of the Windows property declines sharply.

Samsung lives with this reality.

They have customers who *need* windows for compatibility reasons, a large portion of those would not be served by WinRT anyway.
They have successful Android product lines they have already done the startup investment in so margin is higher
The "tablet PC" space were Windows (proper) lives from a cost of production standpoint is likely going down while prices remain much higher than the "tablet" space.

All sinking money into Windows RT would do is eat into their Droid products market. Their is no reason to do it.

Re:No big loss (1)

Tridus (79566) | about a year ago | (#42576027)

There is nothing made for Windows RT right now that is even remotely price competitive with Android. It's barely price competitive with the iPad.

Re:No big loss (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576485)

Oh, it's a lot simpler than that. They don't want to lose money trying to sell these things.

Re:No big loss (5, Interesting)

hairyfeet (841228) | about a year ago | (#42575313)

Actually its such a failwhale I seriously doubt it'll even get third, more likely a distant fourth. first will be either iOS or Android 4, next will be the one of those two who doesn't have the top spot that week, followed by Android 2.x which while starting to finally die out still has a pretty good share, and finally MSFT WinRT. Honestly if you count the Symbian units still being sold most likely MSFT would make fifth since the sales of Surface are so bad they had to cut their order in half [bgr.com] and it looks like they sold less than a million units for the fourth quarter, that is just terrible numbers.

Seriously how many negative indicators is it gonna take for the board to put down the crack pipe and fire the Ballmernator? The man has wasted something like 40 BILLION in the past 6 years on failed ventures, his few successes certainly haven't even wiped all the red ink from his bad moves, much less made a profit, honestly they would have had a better return with no strategy at all, just putting the money into T-Bills or blue chip stocks. When even Forbes is calling the 00s "MSFT's lost decade" and naming the Ballmernator worst CEO, how much more proof do you really need? the man is an unmitigated disaster and I bet if you compared how much money the Pepsi guy lost for Apple with what Ballmer has blown on harebrained ideas like Zune, Kin, Sidekick, Bing, etc Ballmer would make the Pepsi guy look like Steve jobs, he is THAT bad.

Re:No big loss (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575551)

push a platform that will likely have the third best market share in Mobile OSes.

Third place? LOL RIM will take that place. Windows Phone OS will be either 4th or 5th and then cancelled.

Re:No big loss (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575845)

Except RIM has been on the decline for some time now, while windows phone has been growing. Take a look at Gartner's quarterly unit sales over the past year. BB10 still isn't out, and if it reversed rims fortune at all, will take many months to do so.

Re:No big loss (2)

Tridus (79566) | about a year ago | (#42576039)

Given that Samsung is going to be pushing Tizen, the gospel that Windows will be third "because it's Microsoft" is really pushing it. It's a non-factor right now.

Re:No big loss (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576331)

Except RIM has been on the decline for some time now, while windows phone has been growing. Take a look at Gartner's quarterly unit sales over the past year. BB10 still isn't out, and if it reversed rims fortune at all, will take many months to do so.

Except RIM still holds about 11% of NA marketshare compared to about 2% for Windows Phone. And as we've seen Windows Phone isn't exactly growing.

"third best market share in Mobile OSes" - no way (2)

CdBee (742846) | about a year ago | (#42575637)

Pretty sure it'd be at best 5th. RIM and Symbian might be dying but WinRT was stillborn

Don't put new wine into old wineskins (5, Insightful)

Marcion (876801) | about a year ago | (#42575071)

Until very recently computing has all been utilising the benefits of this year's more powerful and more resource hungry x86 processor. Relatively cheap laptops are more powerful than supercomputers 15 years ago but the user experience is not particularly more responsive because software gets increasingly bloated.

ARM devices are really a different proposition, on the plus side they have no moving parts and a long battery life, however they are a very different architecture to x86, and making the OS perform well requires lots of differences. Linux (and therefore android too) was always built to be a modular system and one thing it does well is support different platforms with many compatible but swappable components at every level. The world's top supercomputers and the £25 Raspberry Pi both happily run Linux.

Windows is very different. It is a set of very tightly integrated libraries, which has its benefits, but they all need to be scaled down to work on ARM, you cannot just swap out some resource hungry component for some open source project because the system is so interdependent. Scaling down software is much harder than scaling it up.

Therefore I am not suprised that Samsung found Windows' ARM version slow and resource hungry. Just because Windows dominated the x86 era, it does not mean it will be suitable for the new and disruptive ARM age.

Re:Don't put new wine into old wineskins (1)

dc29A (636871) | about a year ago | (#42575265)

Until very recently computing has all been utilising the benefits of this year's more powerful and more resource hungry x86 processor.

Yes, indeed. That explains why the TDP of processors is constantly going down: 125W to 95W to 77W.

Oh wait ...

Re:Don't put new wine into old wineskins (4, Insightful)

dimeglio (456244) | about a year ago | (#42575567)

During the last 10 years, there was this ghz race. Processors were built with inefficiencies (power consumption) over raw power and time to market. With the (re)birth of ARM, Intel likely came to realize that raw power might not work for everyone. So they are now engineering their flagship processors the way they should have in the first place.

Re:Don't put new wine into old wineskins (3, Insightful)

fermion (181285) | about a year ago | (#42576493)

My intel I7 computer has no moving parts. And it can run in 128 GB of mass storage. Three years ago it ran on 64GB.

Windows has lot of bulk, some might call it bloat. As a result it does not lend itself so much to a solid state device, which is where computers have heading for 50 years.

The mistake that Windows has made it to label both these devices WIndows. Apple labeled their legacy OS Mac OS X and their tablet OS iOS. The consumer is going to see these as separate devices.

Some of the problems are going to unavoidable, like the netbook. People are going to be looking for a cheap computer, and then complain that it does not run windows, and demand a return. But other problems are avoidable.

I am sure that some of the problem is that MS is playing the money game, like it has done with Windows for a long time. Supply an arbitrarily limited OS that can be sold on inexpensive computers. Then they demand additional monies to unlock the full feature set of the WIndows OS.

And we have seen this hardware issue with MS Vista. Contemporary computers being sold as MS Vista ready. when they weren't. MS has put themselves in the position in which consumers assume that every computer sold today is going to be able run the MS Windows sold today, and the OEM is going be held responsible if it doesn't. Does it surprise anyone if Samsung does not want to deal with the consumer backlash.

Re:Don't put new wine into old wineskins (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576547)

Windows is very different. It is a set of very tightly integrated libraries, which has its benefits, but they all need to be scaled down to work on ARM, you cannot just swap out some resource hungry component for some open source project because the system is so interdependent. Scaling down software is much harder than scaling it up.

I am not a fan of WinRT and some of the decisions made, but this is total bullshit.

With every year that passes, there is more and more distance between the performance of current machines (even ARM ones) and the performance of those that Windows NT ran smoothly on when it was first introduced in 1993. The performance of the base operating system and its core user mode components on low-end hardware is not the problem. The problem is the shitty, incomplete, half-baked tiled thingy they put on top of it, and the decision to cripple its available APIs in a feeble attempt to copy Apple's iOS brain damage. That part was produced in 3 years by some not very capable people. (I used to work at MS and I know some of them.)

I heard... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42574767)

I heard they'd cost an ARM and a leg...

interesting... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42574781)

Funny the Slashdot community skipped right over the news Microsoft sold 60 million licenses so far. this place really is the fox news of tech.

Re:interesting... (5, Informative)

sribe (304414) | about a year ago | (#42574811)

Funny the Slashdot community skipped right over the news Microsoft sold 60 million licenses so far. this place really is the fox news of tech.

Because:

1) That's actually a low rate for Windows adoption;

2) More importantly, it provides no information at all on sales of Windows RT tablets.

Re:interesting... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42574863)

Funny the Slashdot community skipped right over the news Microsoft sold 60 million licenses so far. this place really is the fox news of tech.

Because:

1) That's actually a low rate for Windows adoption;

It is exactly the same as Windows 7 in same time after launch. And that was following Vista.

2) More importantly, it provides no information at all on sales of Windows RT tablets.

This is true.

Re:interesting... (4, Insightful)

ClaraBow (212734) | about a year ago | (#42574965)

And Windows 8 licenses are NOT Windows RT licenses! This confusion between the two different operation systems is really going to bite MS at some point!

Re:interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575435)

Like when Samsung decides not to ship a Windows RT tablet in the US due to customer confusion between Windows 8 and Windows RT?

Re:interesting... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575013)

The few people actually using Windows 8 are those who had it shoved up their ass as a mandatory corporate upgrade, or other similar situations.

Now is the perfect time to be against MSFT and AAPL, because both corporations have nowhere to go but down. Though at least Apple gan get away with claiming that they're stuff is higher-end. Microsoft just shoves money up peoples' ass to upgrade and blitz ads, but its credibility is so laughable that not even that will reassure people that everything that flies out their doors is crap.

Plus, I had sex with a menstruating woman last night. Had her knees on my shoulders and a towel laid out. Was quite surprised when i went to take a piss this morning and found a big gob of blood on the crotch-area of the toilet seat. You're not a real man until you ride the red road.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:interesting... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575107)

man it up ethanol fueled. Man it up

Re:interesting... (3, Interesting)

Cinder6 (894572) | about a year ago | (#42575329)

Mandatory corporate upgrade? I haven't heard of any corporations that are moving all of their users to Windows 8, but I guess they may exist. It's my understanding that corps like to wait it out and make sure that everything works before moving over (thus why many are only now moving to Windows 7).

For myself, I bought Windows 8 because it was less than a third of the cost of Windows 7, and Internet hyperbole aside, it behaves basically the same way as Windows 7 in all the ways that actually matter. I actually prefer it over 7 (if you care enough to know why, it's in my posting history...somewhere...).

Re:interesting... (1)

dimeglio (456244) | about a year ago | (#42575601)

Even those who hate Windows 8 can see there are some improvements. However, the reason to actually upgrade is less that Windows 7 sucked than Microsoft wanting you to get into not-Metro.

Re:interesting... (0)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | about a year ago | (#42574997)

1) That's actually a low rate for Windows adoption

Windows 7 sold as many licenses in the same period (ref [softpedia.com]). According to IDC, the PC industry in Q4 2012 sold 89.8M units worldwide (ref [zdnet.com]). IDC also claims in Q4 2009, the PC industry sold 89.6M units (ref [appleinsider.com]). So between 2009 and 2012 we see no growth and the same sales... we can see Windows 8 is selling at the same rate as Windows 7.

Re:interesting... (1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about a year ago | (#42575339)

The majority of licenses are bundled in with computers and people have little to know choice in what they get. Compare that number to the number of PCs sold in the same period and you're going to find a very similar number. Windows 8 adoption rates can really be measured when that computer arrives and the user pulls out their win7 CD from their last computer and installs it.

Re:Those are OEM sales (5, Informative)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year ago | (#42575391)

OEM buys the licenses beforehand.

All MS has to do is say "Ok, instead of having 1 months supply of Windows 8 licenses I need you to buy 5 months ahead of time!"

Then MS releases a press release saying "OMG DEMAND FOR WINDOWS 8 WENT UP 500%!" Intentionally, exgerated of course but that is my point. We all know the accounting tricks of Vista numbers where people and businesses bought them but wiped them and downgraded to XP.

Online website counters are the real way to predict adoption. If anyone is interested in the real number of people *actually using* windows 8 click here [statcounter.com] from statcounter who checks millions of websites each day? Windows 8 was 2% the last I looked. In comparison Windows 7 jumped 3x more in the same time period 3 years ago!

In otherwords it is a dud.

Re:Those are OEM sales (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | about a year ago | (#42575643)

2.89% as of today. According to stat counter, windows 8 is growing at about the same rate windows 7 was growing in the month leading up to oct 26 (a little faster actually). Since oct 26 windows 7 has been declining. So much for the theory that everyone is buying windows 8 machines and downgrading. These stats also include all the hundreds of millions of computers sold since 2009, growth in internet traffic, as well as iPad and android stats. So how many machines is 2.89%? We don't know. But it's clear windows 8 is growing and growing steadily, no matter the naysaying here on slashdot.

Re:Those are OEM sales (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575705)

Wait, what?

Does that orange line look like "declining" to you? [statcounter.com]. And Win8 is lumped together with "Others" at 3%.

Dude, I can see you're an MS zealot from your posts history, but at least try bullshitting about something less easily verifiable.

Re:Those are OEM sales (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | about a year ago | (#42575909)

Yes, it is has been declining since Oct 26. Here is how the data looks on a daily basis: http://i.imgur.com/hNPSv.png [imgur.com]

The blue line is before Windows 8 launch, the red line is after. Windows 7 was at an all time weekly high the week of Oct 26, when Windows 8 was launched. It's been going down steadily since then (minus some distortion due to holidays, but it's now just about back on the original trajectory started on Oct 26).

As for Windows 8, the stats are broken down when you download the CSV data.

Re:interesting... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575757)

Yes once again we have Microsoft slapping Windows 8 COA's on all new PC's while likely 80% of the systems are shipping with Windows 7 Preloaded. Microsoft counts the Licenses sold, not the OS loaded on the system.

They did this with Vista and Windows 7 when they came out.
I am never one to jump on Microsoft's bandwagon first, this time I did. And I can say windows 8 is truly a time wasting productivity breaker. I am a Microsoft customer simply because it is a standard. But it is getting really old to have every single version of Windows and Office change interfaces and feature setting locations.
And REMOVE Branding LINKS. I do not want the Start Screen displaying a large XBox banner on the screen for Video and Music. The last thing anyone in a Business environment needs to see on an employee's screen is XBOX!

Re:interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576897)

Real businesses don't use machines purchased at Wally World.

Re:interesting... (3, Interesting)

Tridus (79566) | about a year ago | (#42576051)

Because of the large numbers of those that are immediately downgraded back to 7 by corporate customers?

8's actual usage is pathetic.

Re:interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576631)

It's about the same rate as Windows 7 in its lifecycle.

Re:interesting... (4, Informative)

Kenshin (43036) | about a year ago | (#42574821)

How many of those licences are installed on computers currently sitting in warehouses and on the shelves at Best Buy? They're in the channel (on all new PCs, whether people want it or not), not necessarily in the end user's hands.

Re:interesting... (4, Insightful)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | about a year ago | (#42574909)

Isn't that the same argument that was made when they sold 40M? Presumably, if there were still 40M licenses sitting on shelves, OEMs wouldn't buy 20M more to further sit on shelves.

OEMs try to keep as little inventory as possible. They only buy as many as they think they can sell. So how many exactly are in consumer's hands? Less than 60M and more than you care to admit.

Re:interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576541)

The computers haven't been built yet, but the OEM's get the volume discount, which goes down over time. This gives them a clear incentive to buy a lot of licenses early and is a good marketing move for MS.

Re:interesting... (1)

Patch86 (1465427) | about a year ago | (#42577085)

Technically that could imply only that 20m have been sold- that 40m were purchased, half of which have been sold an restocked. Or a number of other inscrutable arrangement of the numbers.

Frankly, we're not going to know the state of things for Windows 8 for a long time yet. Windows spokespeople (plus fanboys) insisted Vista was doing well right up until Microsoft put a bullet in its brain and launched Win 7. It's going to take at least 6 months to a year before the "pipeline effect" can be considered wiped out, and it's going to be a couple of years (until Windows 7 begins to make its way to end of life) before we know how it compares with its rivals, and it'll be until Windows 9 comes out before we know if Microsoft considered it a successful approach or whether they beat a hasty retreat.

Re:interesting... (4, Interesting)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about a year ago | (#42574933)

A better statistic would be to find out what percentage of new PC purchasers would pay a bit more for a Windows 7 downgrade.

C'mon, Microsoft. We dare you to make that offer. The statistics would be helpful, even to you.

Re:interesting... (1)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about a year ago | (#42574963)

How many of those licences are installed on computers currently sitting in warehouses and on the shelves at Best Buy?

Many of them are not even on the shelf yet. To inflate the perception of Windows 8 adoption, Microsoft has included licenses sold to manufactures for computers that haven't even been built yet.

Re:interesting... (1)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | about a year ago | (#42575005)

Microsoft has always included that number in their licenses sold statistic, even with Windows 7, which sold at the same rate.

Dumping (4, Interesting)

symbolset (646467) | about a year ago | (#42575587)

If you dump mass licenses of W8 to OEMs with W7 downgrade rights this is going to happen. They save up millions of licenses and bring down their costs - they have to to remain competitive. But this has nothing to do with which version of the software gets delivered to the customer, nor how popular it is.

Go to dell.com or HP.com and look at their premium desktops. Windows 7 gets top billing still and Windows 8 is an option. In HP's case there are more preconfigured options with SUSE Linux than Windows 8. In Dell's case not one system comes with Windows 8 by default.

No surprise (5, Informative)

blind biker (1066130) | about a year ago | (#42574803)

You don't become the leading smartphone manufacturer by being a sucker.

Re:No surprise (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575453)

Yeah, you do it by knocking off Apple like everyone else does! Gnar-gnar-gnar! Go Lunix, save Aaron, some other meaningless slogan of the week!

Not clear? (1)

gtirloni (1531285) | about a year ago | (#42574813)

I thought it was clear enough that Windows RT is to be the Windows version for ARM tablet devices that will compete directly with iPad and Android tablets.

What's not clear about it. Looks like Samsung is strong-arming Microsoft for something else.

Re:Not clear? (2)

Iceykitsune (1059892) | about a year ago | (#42574849)

Thunk about the non tech-savy people.
"What do you mean it's not Windows 8? It looks the same!"

Re:Not clear? (1, Insightful)

gtirloni (1531285) | about a year ago | (#42575311)

You don't buy something for your Macbook and expect it to run on your iPhone "because it's all Apple, look, it's similar"

You don't buy something for Android and expect it to run on your Linux desktop "because it's all Linux underneath, right?"

You don't buy something for your Windows 8 desktop and expect it to run on your Windows tablet. IMHO, Microsoft has the advantage in that it's going to deliver a tablet with actually Windows 8 x86 capable of running those apps "grandma bought".

Anyone, perhaps I see what Samsung is saying (not much information)... they could always skip Windows RT and concentrate on Windows 8 x86 for tablets anyway since Intel seems to be doing some progress on the power efficiency front.

Re:Not clear? (3, Informative)

realityimpaired (1668397) | about a year ago | (#42575827)

You don't buy something for your Macbook and expect it to run on your iPhone "because it's all Apple, look, it's similar"

iOS and OSX look completely different.

You don't buy something for Android and expect it to run on your Linux desktop "because it's all Linux underneath, right?"

I've never seen a Linux distro with an Android-like UI out of the box. The closest I've seen are the tablet UI's for KDE or Enlightenment e17, but neither of those are enabled out of the box, either, and it'd be difficult to mistake either one for Android even if they were.

You don't buy something for your Windows 8 desktop and expect it to run on your Windows tablet. IMHO, Microsoft has the advantage in that it's going to deliver a tablet with actually Windows 8 x86 capable of running those apps "grandma bought".

Oh wait. I can't make the same argument, here. The two UI's are virtually identical in this case.

You're not thinking like a user.

Re:Not clear? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576019)

You don't buy something for your Macbook and expect it to run on your iPhone "because it's all Apple, look, it's similar"

Why would I. MacOS X and some version of iOS - different operating systems.

You don't buy something for Android and expect it to run on your Linux desktop "because it's all Linux underneath, right?"

Android or some unrelated non-Android operating system. No reasonable expectation of compatibility.

You don't buy something for your Windows 8 desktop and expect it to run on your Windows tablet. IMHO, Microsoft has the advantage in that it's going to deliver a tablet with actually Windows 8 x86 capable of running those apps "grandma bought".

One has a Windows operating system, the other has a Windows operating system. So yes, I have good reason to expect the desktop app to run on the tablet. Unless they don't share an architecture, of course. But do I know about architectures?

Re:Not clear? (1)

Tridus (79566) | about a year ago | (#42576071)

"iOS" and "Macbook" don't have anything in common in names.

Compare to "Windows 8" and "Windows RT". See the problem here? Particularly since there's also going to be a Windows 8 tablet, the source of confusion is obvious.

Re:Not clear? (4, Interesting)

bfandreas (603438) | about a year ago | (#42574971)

Windows RT is anything but clear

I'm actually interested in a Tablet PC ecause I'd ike to run windows binaries on that form factor without recompiling myself. Which I can't.
But every tablet device is advertised and reviewed so lazily that it is hard to tell if it is runing Windows 8 or RT. RT is a whole new eco system to invest in. Currently I'm running Android, Windows and Linux. I do not want another OS in my life.

This RT/non RT thing will confuse people for another few years. How would you market a 10" super thin tablet with 8hrs+ battery life and x86 architecture running Windows 8? How would you distinguish it from the hordes of Windows RT devices?

The name "Windows" has become diluted beyond belief. This has to be the most bone-headed marketing move ever.

Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (4, Insightful)

raymorris (2726007) | about a year ago | (#42574993)

Grandma bought Microsoft Office and it says right on the box "designed for Windows 8". She bought a Windows 8 machine from you. Explain to grandma how she didn't just get ripped off. Remember she has no clue what "x86" is.
Further, explain to ANYONE why they should spend $400 on a WinRT tablet that's less functional than a $180 Android tablet.

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575067)

Grandma can take Microsoft Office back for a refund because it is already included in RT

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575075)

How did she get ripped off? She can use office on her windows 8 machine just fine.

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (3, Insightful)

DavidD_CA (750156) | about a year ago | (#42575181)

Except that Windows RT comes with Microsoft Office, for free, already installed.

I get your point, though. But the same argument can be made for so many other things.

Grandma bought $app (for Mac OS) because she has an iPad and knows that it's made by Apple.

Grandma bought $app for her Android (v1.23) tablet because she knows that it runs Android. Except it is only supported on v4.56.

Yes, there is a lot of confusion in the marketplace. But Microsoft does not have the monopoly on it.

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (2)

UnknowingFool (672806) | about a year ago | (#42575589)

Except that Windows RT comes with Microsoft Office, for free, already installed.

First of all it's not the full functional Office that you would expect. It is Office for RT which has reduced functionality which is somewhat understandable given the difference in UI and architecture.

Grandma bought $app (for Mac OS) because she has an iPad and knows that it's made by Apple.

Apple clearly distinguishes iOS and OS X. There are separate app stores for both. MS has blurred the lines with Win 8/RT. This has the same makings of the Vista Ready/Capable disaster. It is rather impossible for her to install an OS X app on her iPad and vice versa.

Grandma bought $app for her Android (v1.23) tablet because she knows that it runs Android. Except it is only supported on v4.56.

Not the same. This goes beyond a version problem. Windows RT cannot run legacy x86 apps not that newer RT programs won't run on an older OS. There are no legacy apps for RT. Microsoft should not have named it "Windows" at all to avoid the confusion. That's the point.

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (1)

Sepodati (746220) | about a year ago | (#42575925)

I wasn't clear what "reduced functionality" there is in Office RT, so I searched it out for my own information. This page from MS lays out the differences pretty clearly.

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/home-and-student/office-home-student-rt-preview-FX103210361.aspx [microsoft.com]

Yes, there are obviously some things missing (for now?), but it seems like it'd be pretty functional overall. The "commerical use" restriction (if obeyed) is probably the largest restriction, imo.

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576001)

> Except that Windows RT comes with Microsoft Office, for free,

NO, it is definitely NOT 'for free'. It is included in the price of the device. One of the reasons that Samsung cannot make a competitive RT tablet is that they have to pay MS for the RT licence (somewhere between $70 to $95). Some of this is what MS is paid for Office RT. When profit margins are added by wholesalers and retailers the end user may be paying $100-$140 for WindowsRT + OfficeRT. Some Android tablets are not much more than that.

Note also that Office RT is only for non-commercial use. If you want to use it in anything that makes money you need to buy a commercial licence for it.

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42577063)

Yeah, they just have the monopoly on shitty products, hence no one other than the fucking army wanting to buy them. And I'm guessing the army is only contracting Microsoft because some shithead congressman told them to, not because it's a good idea.

Why don't you wander back to Thurrott's site and suck Ballmer's dick where it's nice and safe?

Re:Tell your parents that Win8 won't Win8 programs (4, Informative)

swillden (191260) | about a year ago | (#42577087)

Grandma bought $app for her Android (v1.23) tablet because she knows that it runs Android. Except it is only supported on v4.56.

Then she didn't buy it from the Google Play store or any other decent Android app store. They check compatibility.

Re:Not clear? (1)

CdBee (742846) | about a year ago | (#42575675)

"I thought it was clear enough that Windows RT is to be the Windows version for ARM tablet devices that will compete directly with iPad and Android tablets"

To make this sentence accurate I need to shorten it: "I thought it was clear enough that Windows RT is to be the Windows version for ARM tablet devices". There, nothing laughable in it any more..

Re:Not clear? (1)

Noughmad (1044096) | about a year ago | (#42576045)

I thought it was clear enough that Windows RT is to be the Windows version for ARM tablet devices that will compete directly with iPad and Android tablets.

Clear enough for a nation that has to put warning labels on microwaves so that buyers know not to dry pets in them?

Re:Not clear? (4, Insightful)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | about a year ago | (#42576425)

I thought it was clear enough that Windows RT is to be the Windows version for ARM tablet devices that will compete directly with iPad and Android tablets..

End users don't grok these differences that seem obvious to you and to me. Here's a snippet of conversation I've had multiple times:

User: I've been thinking about switching to Mac.

Me: I really like my Mac, but you need to think about how you use your computer. Do you have any Windows-specific software you need to run?

(Clarification about what that means)

User: Yeah I've got Program X that I need for my work.

Me: That wont run on a Mac. There may be Mac-based alternatives, or you could probably buy virtualization software and run it that way.

User: Why does a Mac need different software? ...

Windows 8 sucks worst than Vista (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42574827)

Win 8 is Microsoft's doom, Apple is closing up their machines, will Linux finally rise to the desktop occasion and save us all?

Re:Windows 8 sucks worst than Vista (3, Interesting)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#42574899)

Someone big needs to jump into the desktop area with both feet and Linux will win.

Look at virtually every other computing market: servers, mobile, embedded, etc. Linux dominates.

Re:Windows 8 sucks worst than Vista (1)

Omestes (471991) | about a year ago | (#42575735)

Someone big needs to jump into the desktop area with both feet and Linux will win.

Not really. Linux still lacks 3rd party support, and without that, no matter how big the push, it will fail. Yes, more use would spur 3rd party development, but without 3rd party support getting more use would be a nasty uphill battle.

Also, no matter how much /. users rant about Linux being usable now, it still doesn't really compete with OS X or Windows 7-8 in that arena yet. I install various flavors of Linux every year just to see if they are ready to replace Windows (and previously OS X, before I retired those boxes), at least on our non-business computers (no Lightroom or Photoshop, no go for me, nothing 100% comparable with Office, no go for my girlfriend), and non-gaming computer. Linux has made improvements, but it still isn't ready. I still have to dip into the CLI from time to time, I still have to use software designed by programmers, for programmers (ugly, horrible UI, no concept of user-friendly, or differing work-flows), I still had to edit some configs to get basic sound to work and to set up network sharing with a diverse LAN (sharing between Linux boxes, with different distros, three Windows boxes with different versions, and an OS X box/htpc). The biggest distro, and biggest DE took massive steps to kill usability (Bigger than Windows 8, even), and the other major DE is so arcane than I still haven't figured it fully out in 10 years.

Yes, there are other DEs and Distros, but this confuses most people. They don't want to bother with spending the first month getting their computer functional.

Worse is the community. Yes, thanks to Ubuntu there some nice Linux nerds out there, but you still get elitist wankers telling you to RTFM, or "learn the hard way". Far more than there are in Windows or Mac land, at least.

I wish Linux was there. But the only thing that would ever make it get there is to basically kill itself and is ideals. It needs to take away some freedom, it needs to simplify and focus not on engineers and programmers, but slick form-and-substance applications, it needs to settle on a standard UI, and a standard distro. That UI and Distro need to stop giving a shit what Linux users want, and how RMS feels about things. It has to stop caring about "freedom" at the expense of usability and compatibility. All of this would cost money, so it also has to stop caring about being free, probably. Open Source ethics would be a liability too, since it scares the nice capitalists who make computing useful.

Re:Windows 8 sucks worst than Vista (1)

Richy_T (111409) | about a year ago | (#42576007)

Now that Steam runs on Linux, imagine an x86 Android with Steam games. It wouldn't take much more than that to steamroller things since Microsoft lowered the bar so much with 8.

Poor naming (3, Informative)

EdZ (755139) | about a year ago | (#42574841)

heavy investment to educate the consumer on the differences between windows RT and 8

I still think it was an absurdly foolish decision not to make Windows 8 and Windows RT obviously and distinctly separate products. Call it Windows Tablet or something. Even for people who do know the difference (8 = 7 with a wider start menu, RT = locked down tablet OS), you often need to drill down to the 'tech specs' page when looking at tablets in order to tell whether it has a useful OS or not.

Re:Poor naming (5, Funny)

DMiax (915735) | about a year ago | (#42574931)

you often need to drill down to the 'tech specs' page when looking at tablets in order to tell whether it has a useful OS or not.

Can't you just check if it says "Windows" on the cover?

Re:Poor naming (2)

bfandreas (603438) | about a year ago | (#42575011)

Yep. This is beyond idiotic.

When I buy a device that's running Windows I want to be able to run the stuff on it I already own. I'm not interested in repurchasing everything again.
It is a completely separate eco system. And I'm already invested in Android.

Also reviews and product tech specs are often done so lazily you can't even be sure which one of these are running on the device. I predict lots of returns by confused customers.

Re:Poor naming (0)

DavidD_CA (750156) | about a year ago | (#42575149)

How many of your Android tablet apps will run on your desktop/laptop?

Every Windows RT app that I've bought works on both my Surface RT and my two Windows 8 machines.

And the purchases and settings are automatically sync'd.

Re:Poor naming (2)

0123456 (636235) | about a year ago | (#42575203)

How many of your Android tablet apps will run on your desktop/laptop?

My desktop and laptop don't run Android.

Every Windows RT app that I've bought works on both my Surface RT and my two Windows 8 machines.

Yeah, great.

Out in the real world, we don't buy a new version of Windows (sorry, I guess it's Window now since it's all designed for full-screen apps) so we can run new apps on an old version of Window, we buy a new version of Window to run old apps from old versions of Window and DOS on the new one. If those apps don't run, there's no reason to pick Window over a more robust and user-friendly operating system.

Microsoft astroturfing is really getting lame.

Re:Poor naming (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576025)

> When I buy a device that's running Windows

I saw adverts for Lumia phones that clearly stated 'Windows 8'. They meant 'Windows Phone 8' but even the copywriter was confused.

Re:Poor naming (1)

mcgrew (92797) | about a year ago | (#42575333)

I still think it was an absurdly foolish decision not to make Windows 8 and Windows RT obviously and distinctly separate products.

I thought the whole idea for W8 was to have a single interface for different devices? So having two distinct, largely incompatible products that look the same sounds like insanity to me. I just don't get it. Why RT at all?

Re:Poor naming (1)

Sepodati (746220) | about a year ago | (#42576053)

The interface is still the same, even if not all programs will run or be available on all versions.

Pretty sure the culture here will damn MS no matter what they do. If they ignored ARM, they'd get shit for that. If they released "just another Windows" on tablets, they'd get shit for not doing anything new. When they do something new, they get shit for it being different.

Re:Poor naming (1)

Jeremi (14640) | about a year ago | (#42575569)

Call it Windows Tablet or something.

AFAICT there are two separate facts that the brand name 'Windows' conveys to the consumer:

1) This product will be compatible with the ubiquitous Win32 ABI, so you can go into BestBuy (or whatever), purchase any "Windows compatible" software box, and have it install and run.

2) This product has a user interface with windows in it (i.e. little GUI rectangles with widgets in them that the user can drag around, minimize, maximize, place in front of each other, etc, as seen in all previous "Microsoft Windows" products)

Is Windows RT described by either of these? If not, I agree, calling it "Windows" only sows confusion.

No tablets.... (1)

abigsmurf (919188) | about a year ago | (#42574969)

Now how many convertibles were there? Every big store I've been too have about as many convertible windows 8 machines as they do other 10" tablets. If you're charging $680 for Core i tablet, you may as well make it $700 and add a foldable or detachable keyboard.

From what I gather, the budget x86 Windows 8 tablets having been waiting on the new low power atoms

Why would Samsung release RT elsewhere either? (4, Interesting)

unixisc (2429386) | about a year ago | (#42575139)

Actually, aside from the US, why would Samsung even do an RT tablet anywhere, when they have one of the most successful Android products in both the Galaxy phone & the Galaxy tab?

If they wanted, it might make sense for them to do an Atom/Fusion based Windows 8 tablet, and that would probably be the only good platform for Windows 8 in that it will be able to run Wintel apps as well.

Windows RT will be an even bigger fiasco than either Windows NT on RISC (Alpha, MIPS) or Windows Server 2008 on Itanium ever was.

Re:Why would Samsung release RT elsewhere either? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575267)

Windows RT will be an even bigger fiasco than either Windows NT on RISC (Alpha, MIPS) [...] ever was.

Clearly, you've just demonstrated that you don't know shit about the origin story and lineage of Windows NT. That's just embarrassing.

Re:Why would Samsung release RT elsewhere either? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42576963)

So tell us how WinNT/Alpha was a ringing success. Go ahead, we're waiting.

Re:Why would Samsung release RT elsewhere either? (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year ago | (#42575349)

People who may want to run Office for one?

As people become more familiar with METRO they will tolerate them more and will start to be familiar with the UI. I suppose it is not too bad on a tablet even though it blows on a desktop.

Windows RT is a fraction of the cost of full Windows 8 which is an advantage to consumers too who just play angry birds and want to edit some office docs at home or on the road.

We should all encourage a healthy ecosystem and not just have 2 on the block to choose from? We will get better prices and innovation the more platforms we have. I would not want an Android monopoly more than the Microsoft one we had over 10 years ago to ruturn.

Re:Why would Samsung release RT elsewhere either? (1)

Tridus (79566) | about a year ago | (#42576101)

We should encourage a healthy ecosystem if that ecosystem is something people actually want.

I don't hear a whole lot of people screaming for Metro and touch desktops, yet Microsoft decided their ecosystem should be based on that. If it died a horrible flaming death, this would be no big loss to PC users everywhere.

Re:Why would Samsung release RT elsewhere either? (1)

DMiax (915735) | about a year ago | (#42576237)

Because if you are the size of Sammy, you know to keep every door open. In this case it means being able to churn out a Windows tablet in case the OS is an unexpected success. They don't need to actually market it, just ensure that their hardware runs it with minimal modifications and have a small userbase to iron out the biggest bugs.

Why go with RT when you can have the real thing? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575205)

I recently purchased a Samsung ATIV Smart PC at Best Buy for $699.

It has an Intel Cedar Trail processor and runs full Windows 8.

It's very fast, has amazing battery life and it can run literally **Millions** of programs.

For $200 more, it's a no brainer.

Re:Why go with RT when you can have the real thing (1)

ClaraBow (212734) | about a year ago | (#42575359)

$200? The average selling price is $799. Yeah, you can get it at AT and T for 100 dollars less with a two year contract! They are not cheap!

Re:Why go with RT when you can have the real thing (1)

colinrichardday (768814) | about a year ago | (#42576961)

Should you use the term "no brainer" to describe a computer? Doesn't that defeat the point?

Or Apple (1, Interesting)

Billly Gates (198444) | about a year ago | (#42575307)

Samsung is not bringing the latest Galaxy either because of Apple. Sometimes losing is cheaper than fighting in court as Apple are frankly assholes who already sued and won $ 1,000,000,000 judgement already. The shareholders will not put up with that anymore.

If this is not proof that Apple is far more evil than MS I do not know what is. At least in 2013 my anti-MS zealotry I had 12 years ago is gone. I used to post comments opposite of what I write today about the evils of MS.

But today I want to see more WindowsRT tablets to keep Android, IOS, and Webkit in check for a healthier marketplace. I doubt MS will be what it once was with this competition but I believe we all benefit even if we are loyal IOS or Android users.

A shame as Samsung made fine phones and tablets

Re:Or Apple (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575607)

Oh, you stupid Microsoft shill. When will you learn that you're a dumbass.

Samsung thinks that (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42575879)

Samsung thinks that Americans are too stupid

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