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SolusOS Forks Gnome 3 Fallback Mode

Soulskill posted about 2 years ago | from the will-now-attempt-to-fall-forward-or-to-the-side dept.

GNOME 162

An anonymous reader writes "Linux distribution SolusOS has forked the GNOME 3 'fallback mode' that the GNOME Project decided to scrap with the upcoming 3.8 GNOME release. According to SolusOS, the fork, named Consort, can 'maintain an experience virtually identical to GNOME 2, but vastly improve it with no need for hardware acceleration such as with GNOME Shell or Cinnamon.' It 'will bring back all the old features, such as right click-interaction on the panel, GNOME 2 applet support, creating desktop launchers, etc' and 'allow Python GNOME 2 applets to run natively on consort-panel.'"

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Good luck ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629715)

... ever getting on the mainstream desktop.

Re:Good luck ... (0)

jedidiah (1196) | about 2 years ago | (#42629807)

On the "mainstream desktop" you are stuck eating whatever rancid poo your proprietary OS vendor wants to feed you.

Good luck with that.

Re:Good luck ... (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#42630319)

But that rancid poo usually still works better than the Linux desktop of the month version 0.1.

Re:Good luck ... (2)

Gordonjcp (186804) | about 2 years ago | (#42630483)

... ever getting on the mainstream desktop.

What makes you think the goal is making Linux a "mainstream" desktop? Windows is perfect as the mainstream desktop - it lets the non-technical masses post pictures of fluffy puppies to all their friends on the fashionable social media site of the month, and indulge in rambling flame wars about the relative merits of "Cool Ranch Flavour" versus "Nacho Cheese Flavour" on their favourite World of Cornchips forum, and maybe play some fun little games. The rest of us are happy with our non-mainstream OSes that we use to get real work done.

Can you imagine if OSes were like vehicles? Of course, it's okay for *me* to drive a 32-tonne truck to the shops for my morning paper, but can you imagine if *everyone* did it? Madness...

Re:Good luck ... (1, Insightful)

davydagger (2566757) | about 2 years ago | (#42632041)

have fun in windows 8 with a DE you CAN'T replace.

at least we have a plethra of options to run to when devs decide to fuck us.

you have nothing.

Why bother (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629749)

People who have real work to do are already using XFCE.

Re:Why bother (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629781)

Have you ever used Gnome3, you dumb fuck?

Re:Why bother (3, Insightful)

HaZardman27 (1521119) | about 2 years ago | (#42629853)

I tried GNOME 3 when it was still pretty new, didn't like it very much, and switched to another desktop. I've heard it's improved a lot so I'll probably give it another shot in the near future, but it's not a big priority for me because XFCE is already extremely usable and configurable.

Re:Why bother (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630481)

Yeah, it's a waste of resources, space, and time.

Re:Why bother (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631195)

Have you ever used Gnome3, you dumb fuck?

Apparently it makes you retarded...

Re:Why bother; Just Fork Gtk3. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42632795)

Those Gnome developers have f>kup the entire desktop experience, and their vision of an UN-configurable, no-options, hidden-menus, "just Works" by magic philosophy will only create dumber users, so Gtk3 should also be forked and let "Gnome 4.x" wither and die.

Re:Why bother (3)

rsborg (111459) | about 2 years ago | (#42629863)

People who have real work to do are already using XFCE.

Did you ever consider that some folks who cut their teeth on Gnome 2.x UI are just vastly more productive using that interface? For those folks, this is a big draw.

Why should I change my comfortable UI habits just because some OS Distro (ie, Microsoft, Canonical, etc) wants change for change's sake? I'm sure there's as much to hate about XFCE as Gnome2. To each their own.

Re:Why bother (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629965)

And yet there's less to hate about both of those put together than there is to hate about Gnome3. At least this new Consort thing is being done by people concerned more with usability than with "must get rid of everything old! must do everything different, even if it makes it unusable!"

It's Just What People Are Used To (0)

reallocate (142797) | about 2 years ago | (#42631439)

>>"... just vastly more productive using that interface?"

It's just what they are used to. They confuse familiarity born of experience with better design and intuitiveness. That leads to entirely bogus rants about how the Gnome devs are supposed to let biased online anecdotal rants plot their course.

The differences between all of the desktop GUI's -- Gnome 2, Gnome 3, KDE, XFCE, OS X, Windows, etc., are minor. In all and each of them, we type on keyboards, move on on-screen cursor, and click on icons. Gnome3 does away with cute little icons in panels and deprecates minimization and people freak out as if those two things were the only way to do anything. People rant about Windows 8 because it is different than what they know. Yet, wait until Microsoft replaces Windows 8 with something entirely different and people who have used nothing else but Win8 will be ranting about how wonderfully easy, productive and intuitive it was.

  Some people are so conservative and so rigid that they can't muster up the ability to deal with new software on its own terms, instead bitching because it doesn't work like the old software they know.

Re:Why bother (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631621)

XFCE would be perfect if it used Gtk3. Unfortunately it does not, and it does not look like it is going to any time soon. The same thing goes for MATE actually.

UI's do help... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629763)

It's good to see that there are people out there taking up the good fight in developing *good/usable* user interfaces that just work. If the Gnome 3 developers didn't literally have their heads up their arses, this necessity wouldn't be happening. Though...Windows 8 actually makes Gnome 3 look somewhat usable...that's not saying much.

Re:UI's do help... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629883)

i was reading the coments on the original article ... there is no real need for this fork. Both the maintainers of gnome-session-fallback and metacity want to give theri projects to somebody else to continue development without being limited by GNOME's goals. So the people at SOLUSOS cold take both projects and continue development without forking them.

Literally! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630029)

If the Gnome 3 developers didn't literally have their heads up their arses, this necessity wouldn't be happening.

And by "literally", you mean "figuratively, but with strong emotion!". That is, unless there have been some bizarre death scenes among the Gnome 3 devs I haven't read about yet.

Re:Literally! (1)

drankr (2796221) | about 2 years ago | (#42630127)

Nitpicking on people's grammar when they're in distress, tsk, tsk!

Re:Literally! (1)

yahwotqa (817672) | about 2 years ago | (#42632817)

Not on their grammar, rather on their understanding of basic words.

Re:Literally! (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | about 2 years ago | (#42630173)

If you used Unity you would understand that he very well have some intimate knowledge of the design process.

Re:Literally! (2)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | about 2 years ago | (#42632987)

I have tried to use the Unity interface, and I it definitely feels like someone has literally had "intimate knowledge" of it in the biblical sense.

vs MATE? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629797)

So what are the actual differences? Does the fallback mode use GTK3 or something? It sounds like everything promised is exactly Gnome 2.

Re:vs MATE? (1)

krammit (540755) | about 2 years ago | (#42629933)

I'm sure someone will politely correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that MATE is largely tied to GTK2 with a transition to GTK3 planned as a major milestone for the project. This could provide a gnome2-like experience without the major hurdles the MATE developers find themselves facing. As with everything involving desktop Linux at the moment, it'll be interesting to see if this gains traction/viability.

Re:vs MATE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630137)

You're right. The biggest problem with MATE is that they forked the entire of GNOME - the file browser, the text editor, the configuration panels. That's fine, but it's a really huge project to undertake. Forking just the panels seems like a much better idea, since there isn't really very much wrong with anything else.

Re:vs MATE? (5, Informative)

UltraZelda64 (2309504) | about 2 years ago | (#42630063)

Sounds like the same concept of MATE and Cinnamon, with the main differences being:

--GNOME Shell is the atrocity most people think of when they think GNOME 3. For the most part, it *is* the official GNOME 3.
--MATE really is just GNOME 2--GTK+2 and all. Creaky and old, not exactly modern, but with a few programs renamed to avoid conflicts with the official GNOME versions and to allow it to exist on a machine with GNOME 3.
--Cinnamon is a GNOME 2 clone written in GTK+3 on top of GNOME 3, requiring all the extra crap GNOME 3-proper does; for example, 3D hardware acceleration.
--Consort sounds like yet another environment based on GNOME 3/GTK+3, but being based on the deprecated "fallback mode" it will bring a GNOME 2-like experience without the need for 3D hardware acceleration.

Beyond that, I honestly have no clue which one is better, they're all relatively new and probably under heavy development. I'm not sure if MATE or Cinnamon have made it to the point where they are free of annoying bugs (in other words, usable), but last time I tried them they definitely had some problems. But they're all probably much better than the crap that the GNOME Project officially provides.

Once they've all stabilized and have become good to use, I would assume that your hardware (3D acceleration or not) and your desire for nice integration of the latest GTK+3 programs will become some of the most obvious differences. I'm not sure if MATE will eventually port the desktop to GTK+3 or not... if they do, assuming all of them survive, that will likely make the choice even more difficult.

Re:vs MATE? (1)

luther349 (645380) | about 2 years ago | (#42631655)

yes mate has become stable and works pretty well but enough of the forks we all know unity and gnome 3 suck.

The Linux UI wars, Retread 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631661)

As someone who uses a Linux box to do real-work and escape from both the proprieterty lock-in and security nightmare of Wimdoze I am fed up to the very back teeth with the stupidity and arrogance of the UI Gang.

Be it Gnome or KDE it is too much, I have to spend 30 minures turning off the latest greatest slowing kitsch and I have to use tripwire, not the documentation to tell me where the config went so I can script it.

Hint, KDE, I don't want to wait 5 seconds while you slowly fade-in your startup page, I do not want to feel sea-sick every time I move a window.

Finally is it too hard to produce an rpm/deb for each major release so I don't have to hand craft one.

More generally for this stuff, why bother with a _64 build on Intel 86, you don't need the address space and you pull silly sizeof(int) != sizeof(void *) bugs from hell and gone. Just build the 32 bit version.

MFG, omb

Re:The Linux UI wars, Retread 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42632139)

Not everyone wants to run an entire multilib environment just because you're scared of 64-bit pointers, you know.

Re:The Linux UI wars, Retread 4 (1)

Anne Thwacks (531696) | about 2 years ago | (#42632997)

Don't know what that means but the GP is right - most of us don't want our computer to look like a games machine, we want to do some work.

PS my laptop says: "Get off my lawn"

Re:vs MATE? (2)

mathew42 (2475458) | about 2 years ago | (#42633041)

I've been running LMDE [linuxmint.com] for the past 12 months and find that Cinnamon is usable. Stability has definitely improved with Update 5 & 6. I wouldn't say it is perfect, but having previously used Gnome 2, it lets me get work done.

You forgot the new upstream option (1)

olau (314197) | about 2 years ago | (#42633073)

Fallback mode is going away in GNOME 3.8. But recognizing that some people miss the functionality provided by the old panel, there are going to be some official extensions to emulate some of it [worldofgnome.org] .

No, it's not going to be exactly the same. So those who like to complain can still do that.

Re:vs MATE? (2)

ssam (2723487) | about 2 years ago | (#42632759)

MATE is a quick functional fix. The GNOME2 code may have been old but it was not broken. it was working well for many people. MATE just took the existing code, and made sure that it was still installable on a modern distro. due to the way GNOME3 had been done this entailed renaming everything. (GNOME devs really did not want to to be easy to have GNOME2 and 3 installed together).

This meant that in 2011 and 2012 people could easily keep using a GNOME2 style desktop. So for the people that value that, MATE is great.

Some people think that a DE must be written in the latest libraries, as so are working on GNOME2 style desktops using GNOME3 tech. You could call GNOME3 fallback the first attempt (though it lacked many features), cinnamon is another, and now consort. Also MATE is gradually moving to newer libraries. I guess one of these will be the winner, but for now (from my point of view) MATE is in the lead.

GNOME devs are so blind (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629801)

How can they not see the destruction of their ecosystem right in front of them? They worked so damned hard to make GNOME 2 the best damned environment, and it grew like a weed with Ubuntu. And then sometime around 2009 everyone just lost their damned minds and destroyed it all for no good reason at all.

All they've done is make all of the users unhappy, removed and broke functionality. They're too busy cutting off their own limbs to fix actual problems anymore. How do the leaders in GNOME not see this happening? It's a damned shame.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630103)

i for one found gnome2 great. with some caveats.

1. i already had removed the bottom bar, using virtual desktops + alt-tab for my window switching. (closer to gnome3)
2. the panel was full of glitches (icons jumping around, misbehaviour when switching resolutions, etc...good riddance).
3. laggish menus everywhere.

i find gnome3 to be a bit more usable. still the bottom bar is a bit glitchy (they dont yet know how to present programs to the user in a useful manner). (app menu is a bit disorganized, finding a program if you dont know what you are looking for might be problematic). but these issues are being addressed as far as i know.

notification has improved greatly.
integration with connectivity has improved too (not that i use it, but its there).

what is the REAL problem people find with gnome3? give real life examples.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (3, Interesting)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#42630381)

The glitchiness that you talk about really creeps me. It seems that Linux desktops usually can't reach the last mile to do the proper quality assurance to iron that crap out. No matter what DE we are talking about, this problem affects them all more or less.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630507)

I've had 0 problems with LXDE, after switching from XFCE because it destroyed itself somehow.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#42632033)

Just recently, in Lubuntu 12.04 I experienced a bug where the window minimization animation flew into the center of the screen instead of the taskbar.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | about 2 years ago | (#42630207)

And with the abomination that is Windows 8, they picked the worst possible time to do it. I loved Gnome 2 ... it was damn close to perfect. I gave Unity a shot. It was slow, buggy, and generally deficient. I gave Gnome-shell a shot. I liked it to a degree, but found I needed lots of extra fiddling to make it work the way I wanted. Things frequently crashed. The developers said that they didn't think people should be installing extensions or even themes. With an attitude like that, I was obviously headed for an eventual incompatibility with Gnome. I use KDE now (although I like Xfce on my older machines as well).

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#42630413)

Heh. I found Unity OK from a usability standpoint, but its probably the slowest desktop I've ever used. Windows 7/8 run circles around it, while MS used to be the bloat king a decade ago.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630509)

Unity Fallback cleans up most of the issues with Unity proper (notable the 3d composition stuff.)

I ran it on a neighbor's laptop with an RV370 (ATI X600) chip in it and even at 1920x1200 it ran alright. XFCE/WindowMaker flew in comparison however, but the kid liked it, so I left it as it was.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | about 2 years ago | (#42630921)

I use KDE now (although I like Xfce on my older machines as well).

I have a P4 that runs KDE *acceptably* - though boot times from power on to a functional desktop are glacial. Though I upgraded the RAM because of a bug in the intel graphics driver that would claim too much shared memory.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630209)

How can they not see the destruction of their ecosystem right in front of them? They worked so damned hard to make GNOME 2 the best damned environment, and it grew like a weed with Ubuntu. And then sometime around 2009 everyone just lost their damned minds and destroyed it all for no good reason at all.

All they've done is make all of the users unhappy, removed and broke functionality. They're too busy cutting off their own limbs to fix actual problems anymore. How do the leaders in GNOME not see this happening? It's a damned shame.

The world is full of idiots, some places just have more of them.
The Gnome project is a sink, it attracts most idiots in town.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630273)

Gnome 3.12 = Gnome 4.0 = Gnome-OS. Coming to us in March 2014.
They don't care about the Distro community, they want to go up against Android.

http://www.slideshare.net/juanjosanchezpenas/brightfuture-gnome/ [slideshare.net]
Slide 18 up .

They have been deliberately breaking Community themes and extensions, because of their "brand" image.
Blog with links for those who are interested.

https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes// [wordpress.com]
Anon.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | about 2 years ago | (#42631223)

This has been tried and failed with Maemo's Hildon. (Though it has been ported to GTK+ 3 in the form of Cordia-HD)

Nokia decided that Gtk+ was such a dog's breakfast (perhaps due to the difficulty of porting it to Symbian) that they'd go out and buy Trolltech and base their offering on Qt. Which was starting to show promise in the N9. Its legacy lives on in Ubuntu mobile, Sailfish, KDE Plasma Active, BB10, open webOS - which are all Qt based.

What exactly does GTK+ 3.x bring to the table that will catapult it ahead of Qt 5 offerings? Have gnome developers commenced porting their apps to be touch-friendly? (as with Plasma Active.)

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630279)

I'll tell you why.

There are too many "designers" and not enough "developers".

Firefox project has the same issue. Fire the designers!

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (1)

arth1 (260657) | about 2 years ago | (#42630305)

How do the leaders in GNOME not see this happening?

There's a word [wikipedia.org] invented for this.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (2)

dbIII (701233) | about 2 years ago | (#42632127)

It looks very much like those earlier devs are gone and newer ones with little experience on a *nix platform have wandered in and decided to put their own stamp on things. They've managed to bring the equivalent of DLL Hell to *nix for the first time and broken things so badly that you've got a choice of all gnome2 or all gnome3 and not a mix of apps. Getting the new version of gimp to run with an old version of gnome may be solvable, but not in any obvious way so it's easier to run the thing in a virtual machine! That's how badly they've broken it.

Re:GNOME devs are so blind (2)

jbolden (176878) | about 2 years ago | (#42632805)

From the perspective of the Gnome group how exactly is that broken? They've made it hard for you to use a product they want you to switch away from. That sounds like they are accomplishing their objective, you just dislike their objective.

As for .DLL hell and Linux. Linux has always had "DLL hell" that's why distributions caught on so quickly vs. configure / make / install. The only system without .DLL hell funny enough is Windows XP and newer since they did a lot of work to avoid it.

Another fork for control (0)

robmv (855035) | about 2 years ago | (#42629803)

Instead of helping GNOME to modernize fallback mode (it used deprecated GNOME technologies like Bonobo, etc) as they were saying they didn't have the manpower for that, these people forks, no matter there ir already another fork Matte (that I think could be avoided if people helped modernize GNOME fallback mode)

Fallback mode was scrapped because no one wanted to maintain deprecated and ugly things like orbit and Bonobo, if someone volunteered to udpate GNOME Panel to new technologies, including GTK3, I wouldn't have happened

Re:Another fork for control (4, Insightful)

geek (5680) | about 2 years ago | (#42629839)

Instead of helping GNOME to modernize fallback mode

GNOME didn't want to modernize it. They abandoned it.

Re:Another fork for control (2)

Etherized (1038092) | about 2 years ago | (#42632059)

Abandoning fallback mode is such a dreadful mistake.

I love GNOME 3, but the reality of current driver support on Linux is that many systems which aren't even very old are incapable of running GNOME 3 properly. Not to mention, remote desktop software such as FreeNX is incapable of 3d acceleration at all, and so a solution that does not require hardware acceleration is vital for that use as well.

I can certainly understand the desire to kill off fallback mode in the long run, but hastening its demise will just hasten the exodus of GNOME users. It's sad to me that the GNOME developers seem to have chosen the most abrasive transition strategy possible, ignoring critical use cases and the users who require them.

All that said, I don't see how a fork of fallback mode really makes a lot of sense at this point. Mate is already out there, and it seems to fill the same niche.

Re:Another fork for control (1)

fnj (64210) | about 2 years ago | (#42631869)

Would you mind repeating that in English and without the misconceptions and non sequiturs?

Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (4, Insightful)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#42629829)

Maybe it's the cynicism growing on me but I don't get the constant bitching and moaning over desktop decorations. Back in the day I used KDE3.x and it was fine. Then I used Gnome 2.x and it was fine. Now I use Unity and it is just fine too. On my low-end tinker-boxes, I use Openbox and Fbpanel. And it's all fine. Alt-f2, Alt-tab, Alt-f4, and Alt-Space work everywhere. Focus on your applications, fellas; that's what's important.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629955)

So long as you're just opening a web browser to post cat pictures to Facebook, sure, all of them are fine. When you actually have real work to do, the new shiny UIs suck ass.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (3, Informative)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#42630025)

Not sure what your definition of "real work" is but I somehow manage to get a few things done here and there with pretty much equal ease switching between Gnome 2.3 on my Debian box, Unity on my Ubuntu clad laptop, and Openbox pretty much everywhere else. What is it specifically that is giving you so much trouble if I may ask?

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (2)

ichthius (198430) | about 2 years ago | (#42630585)

What is it specifically that is giving you so much trouble if I may ask?

Typical environment, with several apps open (firefox, chrome, filezilla, terminal x 2, nautilus x 2, vi x 6)

Gnome2 has a task-bar with one tab per process. To switch to, say my makefile, I just click on the task/tab that is labelled "Makefile". Or maybe just "Makef" if I'm on a small monitor.

With unity, these tasks get grouped into apps. So, all my vi tasks become one. Then, these apps added to the bottom of thel list of apps the left. All *my* apps are noew concertina'd together at the bottom. So, mouse over the squashed "vi" app, and the concertina jumps about. I move my mouse to the new location of the "vi" app, and it moves again. Only on the third attempt to play "whack-a-mole" can I actually click on the thing I want.

Then, it shows me six minaturised text windows - which all look the same. I need to move my mouse over each of them in turn, to see which one is called "Makefile".

This inability to switch between tasks easily is why I ditched ubuntu for mint on my home machine.

BTW - why is the menu is hidden when not in use. It's not as if Unity puts something else in its place. It is just gone. So, instead of moving your mouse to the menu item you want, you have to move it to the "menu area", wait briefly for the menu to appear, and then select the menu item you want. An extra mouse movement every time I want to use a menu.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#42631071)

I'm more of an alt-tab (and for that matter, I use a gnu screen for multiple vi instances) kind of person rather than clicking on the taskbar so what you're going through there isn't really an issue for me. FWIW though, when I get 10 or so windows open on my desktop I start to appreciate the task grouping behavior. I checked to see if you could turn grouping off and it doesn't look like it. If it's really killing you just install fbpanel and run it ignoring the Unity panel.

BTW - why is the menu is hidden when not in use.

Makes it so you can see more of the window title. When you need the menu, mouse to it. I dig it when I'm browsing with a bunch of tabs and want to see the entire tab title at a glance. But that's just me I guess.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42632513)

Gnome3/Unity breaks alt+tab too, it's even worse than breaking the taskbar.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

jbolden (176878) | about 2 years ago | (#42632811)

Just a quick suggestion. Do "man screen". If you are just talking about VIM sessions then you can use the 1980s multitasking built into an individual terminal.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

fnj (64210) | about 2 years ago | (#42629973)

Alt-f2, Alt-tab, Alt-f4, and Alt-Space work everywhere

The hell they do.

Focus on your applications, fellas; that's what's important.

We can't because shitty abortions like Gnome 3 and Unity make it almost impossible to get to them.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#42630073)

Alt-f2, Alt-tab, Alt-f4, and Alt-Space work everywhere

The hell they do.

Sure they do [die.net] .

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (3, Informative)

unapersson (38207) | about 2 years ago | (#42630105)

I'm using GNOME3 right now and my applications are right here in front of me and the DE is out of my way. How does that make them impossible to get to again? I'm seeing less DE chrome than I used to with GNOME2.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

drankr (2796221) | about 2 years ago | (#42630201)

When you manipulate GS via the keyboard the DE makes all the sense in the world. Using the mouse, it's a mess, it gets pretty much disorienting, and I'm not surprised people who are used to working that way totally reject it.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

ssam (2723487) | about 2 years ago | (#42632781)

Depends. most of the time i am a keyboard person. sometimes i have a mug of coffee in 1 hand and a mouse in the other. In GNOME2 i could do anything easily either with just the mouse, or with just the keyboard. A useful skill to have when dealing with hardware with either a broken mouse or keyboard.

With GNOME3 is seems that some tasks require a keyboard (or you are forced to use a long slow mouse method). Also there seem to be things that are harder to do with the keyboard (maybe just because i have not learned the new shortcuts).

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

ButchDeLoria (2772751) | about 2 years ago | (#42629989)

Eh, it's no less passionate an argument than preferred text editors. Coincidentally, vim > emacs > * > notepad.exe

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

jedidiah (1196) | about 2 years ago | (#42630085)

Logic like that would have us still using Program Manager.

Not everyone is content to just passively accept what is shoved at them. That was true even in the days of Program Manager. Replacements were available and some of us even tried to use them.

The fact that Linux users are less likely to be passive herd followers should be no surprise to anyone.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#42630197)

Logic like that would have us still using Program Manager.

Or it would have us debate these things on actual merit rather than the hysterical hyperbole often seen when the timeless window manager/DE of choice discussion pops up.

Choice quotes on this very page:

People who have real work to do are already using XFCE.

Have you ever used Gnome3, you dumb fuck?

Windows 8 actually makes Gnome 3 look somewhat usable

And on and on and on.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 2 years ago | (#42630447)

Focus on your applications, fellas; that's what's important.

This is a good point to remember us about every now and then. These days, there's huge wanking going around different UIs (not only on Linux) and we forget to concentrate on what we actually do with the computers.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630513)

Unity on the lowend is laughable. Clicking the search button is nearly as much of a kiss of death as the old keyboards with standby buttons on Win98.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#42630557)

Unity on the lowend is laughable. Clicking the search button is nearly as much of a kiss of death as the old keyboards with standby buttons on Win98.

That I can pretty much agree with. They have some minimum requirements [ubuntu.com] but 700 MHz seems a little low to me. Anything under my purview ranking lower than about a 2 GHz P4 gets the Openbox treatment.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

Mister Liberty (769145) | about 2 years ago | (#42630933)

Could it be that you're not really doing much of any interest on your desktop PC.
Yes it could.
So. please don't clutter /. Thanks.

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

oakgrove (845019) | about 2 years ago | (#42631141)

So. please don't mutter [ubuntu.com] /. Thanks.

There now. FTFY

Don't mind me, I'll let you get back to designing that infinity drive powered fusion anti-matter sparko-manoflap thing. Or whatever "important" stuff you and you're computer happen to be doing.

Mod Parent Up (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631451)

He brings teh Funnehz

Re:Less Hand-Wringing, More Get Shit Done (1)

luther349 (645380) | about 2 years ago | (#42631687)

the problem is desktop decorations went from a side project to required. they also went from eye candy to just plain annoying with no real use. and being Microsoft steals all there idea from linux they did this to windows 8 as well and just like on the linux side of things nobody likes or wants it. the devs on both markets simply have gone from listing to what the users likes to we will tell you what you like.

Usual Comments (1)

Merk42 (1906718) | about 2 years ago | (#42629833)

...and already the same old discussion of "I use {inset DE} therefore it is the only good one and all others are dumb" has started.

Re:Usual Comments (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629921)

...and already the same old discussion of "I use {inset DE} therefore it is the only good one and all others are dumb" has started.

Yeah, but this round they're being phrased as "Everyone who's cool, or important, or matters in any way use {insert DE} while everyone else just jacks off to {rival DE's least productive feature as a strawman} like the unimportant anal discharge they are". It's fun, historically, to see how this has progressed over the years.

Re:Usual Comments (1)

csirac (574795) | about 2 years ago | (#42631353)

No, that's the thing. Most Linux users bitch about the fact they've had to settle or compromise on the least-worst DE they could get productive with. I know scarcely few who are enthusiastic advocates for their chosen DE (except perhaps a two or three using awesome or KDE).

I never got along with KDE: been using Gnome since 1.x. I use KDE these days, despite its total utter lack of monitor management (*every* time I dock it forgets how to set my screens), and why would it EVER be appropriate to show only FOUR THINGS in the alt-tab list? Yes, I changed it, but this is a worthless default on my 12" notebook let alone for the pair of 24" screens on my desk. And I despise the K-menu (MORE clicking, BIGGER icons)... obviously, clicking your way to an app is just not the done thing: that's too hard now! Things aren't that simple any more! You're supposed to google your own machine, but do you think the file browser would let you do the same for accessing network resources? No! Somebody thought that the staggering infinity of the internet and countless permutations of local network resources at your fingertips MUST DEFINITELY be clickable from the "Network" location. Manually type a network address? Abhorrent idea! Even if that's what we do in web browsers all day, and even, god forbid, nautilus.

Despite all this, KDE is the least-worst. Well, I preferred XFCE but it had some quirks and limitations with notebook stuff.

Score 0 Redundant (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42629897)

Don't we already have this? MATE anyone?

Re:Score 0 Redundant (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630147)

Nope, this post summarize it very well: http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3392727&cid=42630063 [slashdot.org]

MATE = gtk2 and GNOME2 simply renamed and bug-fixed, this would use gtk3 and GNOME3. When MATE switches to gtk3 (which is an item that appears in their long-term plans I think to remember) then, arguably, it could be seen as redundant ...

Note to the Gnome devs: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630059)

If you get forked 4 times in less than 2 years, you're probably doing something wrong! Unity, Cinnamon, MATE, now this; this is a record IIRC.

Options are good. (4, Insightful)

GreggBz (777373) | about 2 years ago | (#42630093)

Before Gnome 3 and Unity we had KDE, Gnome 2 and XFCE along with a host of other lightweight desktop environments.

The big three all had the same or similar overall UI elements. A "start" menu, icons on the desktop, windowed applications and a task bar.

Now, we have Unity, KDE, Gnome 3, Gnome 2 forks, XFCE, the same collection of various lightweight window managers and desktop environments. Also, apparently, this.

Personally, I'm glad major players diverged significantly from the GUI elements we've all seemed to carry along from Windows 95. It is, in fact, a brave new world with touch screens and tablets. Sure it's arduous, and not cool for desktop productivity but it's only been 2 or 3 years. Maybe it will get better, or maybe some other options will become more popular. The point is, I'm glad I have something new to play around with.

And besides, it's not like you don't have choices if you liked the old way. I was a die-hard Gnome 2 fan, but now I use XFCE and I can hardly tell the difference.

Re:Options are good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631227)

ditto.. But I use Gnome 3. And, although it took a while.. I'm diggin' git.

Re:Options are good. (1)

luther349 (645380) | about 2 years ago | (#42631703)

the thing is most of those so called touch screen friendly ui failed the touchscreen test. kde is smart bought this they do not dump the desktop ui for another but have sepret projects for touchscreens and net-books.

kudos (3, Insightful)

drankr (2796221) | about 2 years ago | (#42630097)

As long as there are people willing to use and fund these forks I don't see a problem. The devs are investing their own time - why should anyone complain?
I even find it poignant in a way, the "bringing back old features" pitch. Trying to revive the past, being nostalgic... but above all, having the skill to actually do something about it instead of just whine - so kudos to whoever is behind this.

Linux loses (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630297)

That's precisely why Linux will always suck on the desktop. When you think Windows, there's ONE. When you think Mac, there's ONE. When you think Linux, there are hundreds.

Re:Linux loses (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42630625)

What happens when the "ONE" Windows desktop sucks? Windows 8 is an abomination that Microsoft is trying to force-feed all Windows users. At least Linux gives some options.

README --- what about Compiz? README -- README - (3, Insightful)

Mister Liberty (769145) | about 2 years ago | (#42630859)

Personnaly I'm sick and tired of all the distro's: Ubuntu, Fedora and
even Mint/Cinnamon.

They ALL spell REGRESSION.
R E G R E S S S I O N.
regression.
Niosserrger... ...backwards, sideways, upside down, mirrored, whatever.

And there isn't a mouse or tablet or gesture or kick in the groin that
will do them any good or correct this wanton purposeful dimwittery.

So, -- for me, compiz, plus cairo-dock, plus emerald, will get my
attention.

Re:README --- what about Compiz? README -- README (1)

ChunderDownunder (709234) | about 2 years ago | (#42631291)

Didn't you get the memo?

Compiz is dead [wordpress.com]

It's all about Wayland now...

Re:README --- what about Compiz? README -- README (1)

luther349 (645380) | about 2 years ago | (#42631769)

lol wasn't that supposed to take over the linux world like 2 years ago.

Re:README --- what about Compiz? README -- README (1)

reallocate (142797) | about 2 years ago | (#42631499)

>> " just vastly more productive using that interface?"

Some of have never like pointless wiggly windows and ugly, gaudy over-large shiny dock icons that look like they were designed by a 1950's middle school art class.

Compiz irritated me for years. Turning it off was always top of my agenda. I like and use docks, but can't stand Cairo. I don't know what taste is, but Cairo has never had it.

Use what you like. So will I. But neither of us gets to equate what we like with what is better.
 

Re:README --- what about Compiz? README -- README (1)

luther349 (645380) | about 2 years ago | (#42631725)

we have always had many distros and uis but the Ubuntu gnome 2 combo was the number 1 choice among users.then gnome decided to blow up a good thing. so ubuntu hates this and well we all did but rather then do the smart thing and fork gnome 2 they come up with the horrid unity.

Beating a dead horse (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 2 years ago | (#42631061)

Gnome 2 was a good companion that was dragged to the street and shot in the head without a emotion by its devs, since there has been a handful of forks and workalikes. I cant find anything on these except opinion and dont have time to sit down and fiddle fart installing DE's to find out what the differences, quirks, and compatibilities are.

There is just not enough signal in the noise on the gnome 2 wannabe's IMO

10 years stagnation on Linux Desktop (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631127)

I observed 10 years of stagnation to bring Linux Desktop closer to actual mass adaption, because the desktop GUI being fragmented, with every new fork . . . . never really gaining any momentum. And any fork trying to re-implement the very same again and again, over and over . . . (facepalm)

Gnome 3 broke multiheaded displays (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631279)

There are many meanings of multiheaded mode, but Gnome 3 broke the most use style: 2 seperate screens. This was the most usable form, but instead on Apple/Microsoft learning what actually is usable, the gnome folks went the horrid Apple/Microsoft way (one large display spread over multiple screens).

I want each of my monitors to have seperate desktops and when I switch to the other desktop, leave the old on alone doing what it was doing (refreshing my network management web page, showing output from a compile in xterm, whatever). Both desktops should have independent virtual screens (1x8-12, none of this 2x2 sillyness of Microsoft/Unity).

What are these gnome 3 developers thinking when they destroy very good and useful functionality. Why wobbly windows, why such 1-2 seconds of my time doing silly animations of unreadable wiondows. Sliding windows are not too bad, you can start to lock in on what you want during the slide. Wobble is just plain out.

Fragmentation is bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631459)

At least in this instance, I think fragmentation is showing that GNOME has made some very serious mistakes. During GNOME 2.x I can't recall any time when there were discussions of forking GNOME. While it was not held above criticism, it seemed to have been widely enough accepted by people that GNOME 2 did what it was designed to do well enough not to precipitate a fork. It just wasn't worth it. GNOME 3 has spawned MATE, Cinnamon, maybe one or two others, and now a fork of the deprecated fallback mode. It just keeps spawning controversy and losing support from developers (or at least it looks that way from the outside).
 
Meanwhile, KDE is chugging along quite happily and XFCE's userbase appears to be growing.

Re:Fragmentation is bad (1)

luther349 (645380) | about 2 years ago | (#42631749)

that's because xfce does not try and change the desktop. the eye candy etc can all be turned off. no need for a fallback mode because your box has a weak gpu or needs drivers installed.

Choice is good (2)

sensei moreh (868829) | about 2 years ago | (#42631775)

Personally, I like the fact that more DE options are appearing. Given that many are Gnome forks, I think it shows that the Gnome developers have gone off in a less-than-satisfying direction for many long-time users. So be it. I don't pay them to develop for me; I'm perfectly ok with letting them scratch their own itches. I don't like Gnome-Shell, I don't like Unity, and I haven't tried Mate, but Cinnamon seems pretty agreeable to me. I'll give Consort a shot - who knows, maybe I'll like it.

fate (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42631823)

funny, I happen to have replaced solusos2 with mint14 today as, after 6 months of common use and very little tinkering, I lost sound and a proper office suit (it refused to update libre office for some reason, and openoffice wouldn't work either). Youtube videos also played fast forward plus some minor issues with my status-bar icons.

i thought solusos was mainly the work of one man, funny to see it appear on /.

Turd polishing (1)

dutchwhizzman (817898) | about 2 years ago | (#42632467)

Imagine you have a nice and shiny turd. It looks okay from a distance, but when you get closer, you realise it smells rather bad and you can't use it for anything more useful than throwing it at the primates watching you in the zoo. Then take all the shine off it, let's call it a fall back turd. You are left with an ugly stinking turd. Why would you want to polish it? Gnome3 fall back mode is all the bad parts of the gnome3 shell, without all they eye candy. It's bad for productivity and usability, no matter how much compositing you throw at it. I can't think of a single argument why you would want to fork just the bad interaction design bit of it. Someone needs to take it out back behind the barn and put an end to it's suffering. It'd be the humane thing to do to all the users and developers wasting time on it.
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