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Fedora 18 Installer: Counterintuitive and Confusing?

Unknown Lamer posted about 2 years ago | from the hub-and-ow-my-eye dept.

Linux 458

An anonymous reader writes "Igor Ljubuncic, former physicist and current IT Systems Programmer and blogger, reviews Fedora 18 with its new installer. In his role as alter ego Dedoimedo, the self proclaimed 'king of everything', Igor's Linux distro and DE reviews are often wry and biting and this review is no exception: 'You enter a world of smartphone-like diarrhea that undermines everything and anything that is sane and safe. In all my life testing Linux and other operating systems, I have never ever seen an installer that is so counter-intuitive, dangerous and useless, all at the same time.'" The non-linear installer interface does look like kind of confusing, at least from the screenshots posted.

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I must agree (5, Informative)

Omnifarious (11933) | about 2 years ago | (#42653473)

I am also extremely disappointed in this Fedora release. The installer is confusing and exhibits seemingly random behavior. I was so overjoyed I managed to get it to install it the way I wanted just once on a VM that I went and tried to install in a number of other places. No go.

And after you install, a lot of things are kind of buggy and seemingly incomplete.

Of course, since the installer didn't really work at all until you got to release candidate 4 or so, I can't really expect any other part of the system to have been decently tested.

This is a horrible release and should be skipped. If Fedora continues to go in this direction, I will have to abandon it, despite the fact that the only other decent alternative is Ubuntu, and I despise it. I've been an RH/Fedora user since 1999 or so.

Re:I must agree (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653531)

You know what? If Igor thinks can do it better, then he should fork that thing and roll his own distro.

Lots of people have something to complain about, but very very few pitch in and try to help or change things.

Re:I must agree (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653647)

No. Just no. It's perfectly fine to have an opinion, even a bad opinion, and not doing anything past the expression of the opinion. It's not his job to fix Fedora. It's not the job of the users to fix Fedora. It's the job of the team working on it. If someone wants to contribute, good for them, but to each their own. The whole "It's open source, so fix it yourself and shut up" is getting really old. I love open source, but I hate people with your attitude.

Re:I must agree (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653747)

No. Just no. It's perfectly fine to have an opinion, even a bad opinion, and not doing anything past the expression of the opinion.

Absolutely agree here.

It's not his job to fix Fedora. It's not the job of the users to fix Fedora.

True.

It's the job of the team working on it.

Do you think this works just like a team in a corporation where tasks are assigned to them by a central authority?

 

If someone wants to contribute, good for them, but to each their own.

That's the makeup of the team working on it. Even the corporate-contributed and corporate-maintained Open Source code is no more or less usable to said corporations than it is to anyone else. The individual contributor who writes code in his spare time is on level ground with them. None of them have an obligation to participate.

The whole "It's open source, so fix it yourself and shut up" is getting really old.

No one said that. Other than you.

To note a qualitative difference between people who complain because they dislike something and people who contribute because they think they have a better idea, well that's an opinion too. See how that works?

Re:I must agree (5, Insightful)

UltraZelda64 (2309504) | about 2 years ago | (#42653843)

Don't worry, this same thing exists in proprietary/commercial software, where you are not only paying just for the privilege to even use the software, but you have to hope that their vision doesn't stray too far from you consider appropriate. See Windows 8: If someone slams it and the Metro interface, or even just changes to the way the traditional desktop itself functions, you can guarantee there will be people around to bitch because you're using your right to free speech to criticize a product... that you have to pay an arm and a leg for in the first place!

Fuck them. If someone or something deserves a reality check in the form of a good slamming, then that's exactly what they should get.

Re:I must agree (-1, Redundant)

Wandy Koay (2820877) | about 2 years ago | (#42654059)

Its true "In all my life testing Linux and other operating systems, I have never ever seen an installer that is so counter-intuitive, dangerous and useless, all at the same time.'" I also working with linux operating system Its more secure...... http://is.gd/KM70vR [is.gd]

Re:I must agree (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654137)

Congratulations. Linking to your little spam-nest on this site is pretty much a guarantee that your server will be a steaming puddle very shortly thereafter.

And logging in with your G+ account, so we can easily find out where you live. Oooh, smart.

Re:I must agree (5, Insightful)

quantaman (517394) | about 2 years ago | (#42653653)

You know what? If Igor thinks can do it better, then he should fork that thing and roll his own distro.

Lots of people have something to complain about, but very very few pitch in and try to help or change things.

'Shut up or fork it' is a criticism I regularly hear directed to people complaining about an Open Source project, and it's a really stupid criticism.

The fact you can fork or even patch doesn't mean you lose the right to complain if you don't.

Complaining offers feedback, it tells the devs what the issues are, both issues they didn't know existed and issues they didn't know were a big problem.

The ability to fork is more of a check on the devs then a regular threat. It stops devs from doing really stupid things that might create a fork or drive people to a new one, and it sometimes lets two projects go in different directions to better serve the userbase.

Remember, users are not the enemy, if you treat them like they are the enemy, well then you won't have enemies for long.

Re:I must agree (5, Insightful)

atomican (2799855) | about 2 years ago | (#42653795)

Remember, users are not the enemy, if you treat them like they are the enemy, well then you won't have enemies for long.

This is more insightful than you think. It's also pretty damn obvious (but not to discredit you writing it, as it's still a good point as it's apparently not that obvious to a lot of people).

If you treat your users with contempt, they will not deal with you any longer than they have to. Once they can find a way to live without you, they will piss off at the first opportunity. Unfortunately there are many people in the open source community who do think their users are idiots and treat them as the enemy when they complain about the direction some software is taking (GNOME 3, Ubuntu, etc). Not just the developers but OTHER USERS in particular treat people as the enemy because they don't agree with them. Why the fuck? Linux users are the minority species in the first place - the last thing we need is needless fighting amongst ourselves.

Sometimes all a person can do is complain, but that doesn't mean the complaint is baseless. It has a use if it's part of a culmination of complaints as it shows user dissatisfaction. And that can be enough of a sign that things are going down the wrong path in itself.

No contribution = whining about a gift (-1, Troll)

raymorris (2726007) | about 2 years ago | (#42653837)

True, but when you can submit patches and don't submit even one, it's kind of like complaining that you're own house is dirty. You could do something about it, but you choose to do nothing and expect other people to take care of your problems for you. That's okay, you can do that. It kind of weakens the complaint, though.

Compare to if you pay someone to make a product to fit your needs, and they prevent you from making changes or submitting patches. In that case, the complainant is on more solid ground - they paid for development, they aren't trying to freeload; and there is nothing they are allowed to do to help fix it.

When I author Linux software, I write it mainly to do what I need it to do, while also trying to make it useful to you. I then give it to you free. You have no standing to demand that I spend my time fulfilling your preferences. If you hire me, donate, or contribute code THEN you're part of the community where we all work together. If you neither donate, nor contribute code or documentation, nor hire me to do what you need done, you are NOT part of the team. You are the recipient of a gift we give you.

"But I'm not a programer!" Okay, so translate the documentation into your native language, or help out on the forums, or maybe even consider feeding the programmers lunch while they work with a $20 donation. Otherwise, you're bitching about a gift.

Re:No contribution = whining about a gift (5, Insightful)

Kenshin (43036) | about 2 years ago | (#42653911)

So basically what you're saying is that in order to have any right to complain about open source software you have to have knowledge, experience, and skill in programming? Because when you say "Why don't you submit a patch?", that's what you're implying.

Newsflash: Not every user of FOSS software knows how to program. Nor should they need to know. Unless you want it to turn into some sort of exclusive little club, in which case the worldwide share of Linux would drop by a good 99%.

Users aren't complaining because they want to be whiny or difficult. They're complaining because they see a flaw. If you want your software to be widely accepted, listen. If your software is just coding for self satisfaction, and you don't care about user adoption, then don't listen.

Re:No contribution = whining about a gift (4, Insightful)

quantaman (517394) | about 2 years ago | (#42653915)

Even when both user and dev are programmers of the same skill level there's a huge gulf in knowledge. A 5 hour patch for the user might be a 5 minute job for a dev since they've already learned the code. So I generally use my dev skills to give a really good description of the problem and test cases. Usually the only times I write a patch are when it's a feature specifically for me, or I've gone into so much detail finding the bug I already found the fix. I consider that to be a good contribution to the community and on projects I've managed in the past I really appreciated users who gave good bug reports.

Tone is also a big factor of course, I find general nagging to be more acceptable for a large project where the individual devs have less personal stake in the project (and are more likely to be paid). Ragging on a one person hobby project is just kinda pointless.

Re:No contribution = whining about a gift (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653949)

Nothing is a complete gift. Recently I tried to install Linux on my laptop, having been told how easy that would be and how much better it would be. I spent hours trying to get the thing to install, and hours more after people urged me to try a different distro. All in all I think I spent a complete workday just installing with zero result.
If you put something out there, it includes an unstated promise, namely that it will work and be useful enough to invest the time in.
Also, people's complaints aren't weakened if they don't contribute. The strength of a complaint derives only from the facts brought to the table; who made the complaint is irrelevant and your post is an example of the logical fallacy of poisoning the well.

Re:No contribution = whining about a gift (4, Insightful)

mewyn (663989) | about 2 years ago | (#42654061)

Why is providing feedback whining to you? I find it to be more helpful than random patches or other contributions.

Thing is, I don't want everyone and their brother submitting patches to a project I work on. I prefer the coding to be done by a core group of people I've vetted and know they are willing to maintain what they submit. I'd much rather get feedback to see if my ideas are headed in the right way my userbase wants it to be headed. Sure, I don't always go in that direction, but it's helpful to see what they want. And it way beats a poorly written patch submitted by someone who doesn't want to maintain it.

Re:No contribution = whining about a gift (2)

seebs (15766) | about 2 years ago | (#42654253)

I don't think I buy that "analysis" (using the term loosely). I mean, ultimately, the point of the gift is to be of use to people. If your gift isn't useful to people, you need to know that -- so you need those complaints.

Which is to say: The complaints are a contribution, and in this case, one desperately needed.

Re:I must agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653655)

That's unfair - it obviously takes a team of developers to put together a distro and maintain it over several release cycles. It's one thing to tweak or spruce up the GUI, it's another to respond to all the various hardware configuration and compatibility issues.

Too bad Red Hat doesn't seem the business merit of re-establishing its consumer distro with a full-time team of developers. They would probably dominate the Linux desktop market pretty quickly, if they had people doing even a halfway decent job.

Or submit a patch or two (4, Insightful)

raymorris (2726007) | about 2 years ago | (#42653685)

You know what? If Igor thinks can do it better, then he should fork that thing and roll his own distro.

Or, instead of forking, contribute a patch or two to improve things.
I thought I could improve RAID in the Linux kernel, so I did. Patch accepted, so now when I download a new version of Linux, it includes my fix and thousand of improvements others have made. I thought I could improve Apache, so I did. Patch accepted. I thought I could improve Moodle in a half a dozen ways. Half a dozen patches accepted. I thought I could improve Linux:LVM. I'm now the maintainer.

Forking is the last resort, when no reasonable patches are accepted. If you don't like the way something works in OSS, contribute a fix.

Re:Or submit a patch or two (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653741)

I thought I could improve Apache, so I did. Patch accepted.

Dude - you are the King of Everything!!! [dedoimedo.com]
(Looks confused)
Wait... how can there be *two* Kings of Everything?

Re:Or submit a patch or two (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654221)

Wait... how can there be *two* Kings of Everything?

Everything is like ideas, I can take your Everything and yet you still have it.

Isn't Everything wonderful?

Re:Or submit a patch or two (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654095)

I've got a patch in Apache but it's not like I expect everyone to be able to do that. You do realize only a select set of people are competent enough to do this right?

Re:Or submit a patch or two (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654325)

Show off.

No seriously: I wish I was this good :(

Re:Or submit a patch or two (3, Informative)

Jesus_666 (702802) | about 2 years ago | (#42654349)

And when you can't write a patch (for example because you're unfamiliar with the codebase and/or languare or aren't a programmer), complain constructively. If possible this means writing a detailes bug report. If you can't do that you'll have to find some other way to get the devs' attention without becoming rude.

Case in point: I'm not a C++ developer and entirely unfamiliar with the Chrome codebase but I found and reported a rendering bug in Chrome. The devs agreed that it was a bug and it's been fixed in the trunk recently.

Re:I must agree (1)

Isaac Remuant (1891806) | about 2 years ago | (#42653751)

I believe this is called user feedback.

Re:I must agree (2)

Itsallmyfault (1015439) | about 2 years ago | (#42653997)

This is the same flawed mentality that has prevented Linux on the desktop from becoming more popular/usable. Instead of listening to criticism and using it to improve the software, it's disregarded/discarded because it's the easiest option. "So and so doesn't know what he's talking about. Meh." Thousands of beta-testers over the years have been completely ignored because a small handful of geeks have been able to manually fix the crap that didn't work, after the fact, and just don't care to put the time in to make it work out of the box. Being a Linux Developer is meaningless if the product they put out is crapware.

Re:I must agree (1)

geminidomino (614729) | about 2 years ago | (#42654331)

This is the same flawed mentality that has prevented Linux on the desktop from becoming more popular/usable. Instead of listening to criticism and using it to improve the software, it's disregarded/discarded because it's the easiest option. "So and so doesn't know what he's talking about. Meh."

It's only gotten worse the past few years, since it's worked for Apple, and it's really starting to feel like everyone from GNOME to Microsoft wants to be them now. Too bad the philiosophy fails to take into account the "peculiarities" of Apples ecosystem.

Re:I must agree (1)

Omnifarious (11933) | about 2 years ago | (#42654023)

I've actually contributed a bunch to Fedora in the form of detailed and useful bug reports. I've also contributed code patches to other areas of the distro. I also have some code (some of it fairly non-trivial) in other Open Source projects that Fedora ships. I'm not someone who is just sitting back and complaining. Heck, I contributed a detailed bug report and a patch to btrfs last week.

It is sorely tempting to dive into current GUI technology so I can re-write Anaconda to actually be reasonable. But, of course, it would take months of effort. And I'd end up getting bored and abandoning it because while this stuff is incredibly irritating when it's done badly (and I can list out exactly why it's done badly if someone actually cares enough to listen) I don't actually care enough stay interested unless I'm getting paid.

That's why every single person doesn't write their very own personalized copy of Linux. We all have different strengths. And it's why we sit and argue and complain and try to work the best way. It's so we all can maximally benefit from each other's work.

Mint a good alternative for traditionalists (4, Insightful)

caseih (160668) | about 2 years ago | (#42653687)

For those of us fed up where with where distros are going these days, it's looking to me like Linux Mint is probably the place I'm going to end up. I want a system I can understand, manipulate and use. Crap like this installer, the new systemd stuff, I just don't need or want. Sadly it looks like Microsoft has little to fear as we're doing a good job of taking ourselves out of the game and market without them having to do much.

Given that the installer is so dangerous, I cannot recommend F18 to any non-expert. Who knows what it will do to your existing windows or linux installs. Maybe F18 should be considered VM only?

Re:Mint a good alternative for traditionalists (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653827)

But my keyboard only goes up to F12... What gives?

Re:Mint a good alternative for traditionalists (2, Insightful)

fast turtle (1118037) | about 2 years ago | (#42654003)

Screw Linux Mint. if you want a true traditional system then go with Linux from Scratch and roll your own. Alternatively, go with Gentoo and have more control then any of the other distro's offer.

My personal reasons for using Gentoo was the fact that it was actually the closest to what the Floss/Oss standard actually said while ensuring that you the user had the needed control to roll your own kernel when Debian had already made it damn difficult and the attitude on the forums/lists was RTFA NOOBIE. Sorry but if I understood the fine manual, I wouldn't be asking someone to clairify things would I and from the beginning the Gentoo Community was far more responsive and willing to help folks learn instead of $rm-f / as some idiots thought was funny to tell a new debian user to do.

I'm a piss poor programmer but I've started learning what I can of python just to revamp portage in "C" as I feel that a python dependency in the base build is stupid to say the least and if I'm successful, I'll be moving to LFS (linux from scratch) to roll my own. Something like Slackware but with emphasis on "what I want" from my system. That's the real beauty of Linux. I can do that and I can share my toys with anyone who wants to play with them.

Re:I must agree (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653731)

I could not disagree more. I have my /home directory on a separate hard drive which I always instruct the Fedora installer to mount but not format. It took me approximately five seconds to configure the installer to do that. Selected the packages I wanted (admittedly, this has gotten far less flexible than the previous version of Anaconda). Installed. The resulting installation was exactly as I expected. It really was not that hard. I skimmed through that "review" and I found it rather self-indulgent. It really just sounds like he's trying make himself feel superior but by being overly critical of someone else's work.

Even assuming the installer is not up to snuff, which is not unreasonable considering it's young age, lambasting the entire release is an irrational claim and does not follow from the installer issues. The release is par for the course compared to Fedora's history. And I've been using Fedora since Fedora Core 1 when they had their repos broken down into core and extras.

Re:I must agree (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653935)

Considering Linux is over 2 decades old, one has to wonder why the installer is re-written every other year. Slackware seems to have been the only distribution to get this stuff right. If it ain't broke, don't fucking fix it!

Re:I must agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653941)

This is the first rewrite of the Anaconda installer in at least a decade.

Re:I must agree (2)

Omnifarious (11933) | about 2 years ago | (#42654071)

So, after I got a working install, mysteriously all of my windows end up blank. It seems to be some sort of weird font issue. I got them to show up correctly once, but they don't anymore.

And I have 5 or ten partitions scattered over 4 disks. I have three separate btrfs volumes, and a smattering of other things. It was nearly impossible to get the install to do something reasonable. I ended up telling it to use the one disk I had that I could wipe most stuff out on.

And then, after I got it installed I tried to move it to where I really wanted it. Unfortunately grub2 has a very obtuse configuration, and it was really hard to get everything booting again after I moved the data around to the partitions and subvolumes I created after the install was over.

I too keep a separate /home, and have done ever since I started running a version of Unix at home in 1992 or so. And no, I wasn't willing to let the installer anywhere near that partition. So I had to point it at the right /home after the install was finished.

Oh, and the logout button went away if you don't have other users or windowing systems. Of course, you know, maybe I want to log out in order to re-read a configuration or something. But no, I have to do a bunch of googling to figure out how to even turn the stupid thing back on.

*sigh* I"m really fed up with this. I've spent a total of 5 or 6 full days worth of my time fighting with installer issues on various systems. If I can't install something, it's worthless to me. And I'm certain that a lot of the other little issues I'm seeing have to do with the fact that they likely had 25%-50% the number of people looking at it pre-release because the installer is so bad.

The only thing I've really liked is that the nouveau driver appears to have fixed a couple of irritating display corruption issues.

Re:I must agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654329)

I'm willing to admit that a brand new installer isn't perfect or even good enough, but you've got to admit that you're a corner case. Most users (even advanced ones) don't have ten partitions lying around on four different disks. The foundation and core functionality seems to be in place and now they just need to iterate. From what I've read, it sounds like the overhaul was justified because the aging nature of Anaconda was making maintenance and improvement a tedious affair. And at some point they have to release. They do need to hear feedback like yours if they're going to improve it.

I've found that with grub 2, it's easiest to tweak /etc/default/grub and then use grub2-mkconfig to regenerate the main grub config file and then tweak that (although I rarely have to). grub2-mkconfig is usually pretty good at detecting other bootable operating systems. Admittedly, switching from grub 1 to grub 2 does involve a learning curve.

Re:I must agree (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653867)

Yes, and that's to say nothing of the horrible performance regression in gcc/glibc that results in a 5% slowdown for general software and somewhere near a 40% slowdown for computational programs using mathlib. That is much more important than the crappy installer IMO.

PS: Whose bright idea was it to have a slide-to-unlock screen on a DESKTOP operating system?

Re:I must agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654027)

slide-to-unlock

Doesn't Win8 have that?

Re:I must agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653923)

I'm a Fedora/RH user too. I was just about to upgrade to F18 but had considered either cent os/scientific linux to avoid re-installs every six months, or alternatively Arch (or some other rolling release).

After reading the article and some of the comments here, Fedora isn't an option anymore

Re:I must agree (5, Funny)

pepsikid (2226416) | about 2 years ago | (#42653971)

I don't see what was wrong with the old installer. It was straightforward and covered all the bases. This new one was like a frustrating chose-your-own adventure, and left me fearing that I'd skipped over part of the process. I felt like it was fighting me when I wanted to erase various vista, ubuntu 10.10 and dell diag partitions and just give it the whole drive. I asked myself "they delayed the launch 3 months for THIS?". However, I'll probably stick with F18 for now since I'm reading that F19 will not have fallback gui. I use the fallback exclusively since I don't have to install any further guis and gnome 3's vino vnc server sucks rancid goat balls when I'm trying to remote into the desktop.

Re:I must agree (3, Funny)

caseih (160668) | about 2 years ago | (#42654207)

Mate runs on F18 and presumably F19 as well. And the fork of Gnome fall-back is likely to have packages for Fedora as well. So the desktop itself shouldn't really play much into your decision whether or not to stay with Fedora, and some version of Fedora. Lots of other things definitely play into this unfolding story.

Seems like devs are chasing mythical "normal/beginner" computer users and in the process leaving those of us who are a bit savy and use Linux in the lurch. In the end, they will have no users at all. Everyone I know is pretty happy with Windows 7, or more likely, Apple.I honestly can't offer them much with Linux anymore, unless they are a programmer and want the sweet development tools Linux can host (Qt and cross-compiling!). But I digress.

Why is he acting so surprised? (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653481)

I thought wasting your time configuring useless shit was a key element of the Linux experience?

Re:Why is he acting so surprised? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653957)

Only when you first install, eg in grub.conf:

title Microsoft Windows

root (hd0,1)

savedefault

makeactive

chainloader +1

What FUD (-1, Flamebait)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#42653483)

First off you want geek non intuitive for non-geeks look no further than Debian or sysinstall with FreeBSD?

It is for geeks. We all know what those screeenshots mean. So in a sense Fedora is for IT pros but not unix hardcore elitists who know what a wifi chipset is or what it means when a disk is full.

No I would not recommend it to my Mom who just freaked out at her IPAD being sooo hard to use to today when she couldn't figure out something for the millionith time. But I bet if such a dumb oriented distro existed it would be bashed here as being crippled for wusses but the same people who prefer distro X.

For the record Fedora/Cent is my favorite Linux distro, but I tend to prefer Windows 7 now these days and still feel Unix was better than Linux in most areas for servers GO FREEBSD 4.12!

Go play with a debian when it mentions all sorts of of archaic things like subnet masks to noobs. My mom still does not know what an IP address is and would freak in comparison.

Re:What FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653571)

I'm a geek, I'm a *contributor* to the anaconda installer suite at various times, and even I think this nonsensical, out-of-order, and improperly labeled attempt to object orient what is actually a straightforward flowchart simply blows goats.

Re:What FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653931)

As someone who's never contributed to Anaconda, I found it quite easy and intuitive. It only too me a few minutes to step through everything including custom partitioning. I didn't lose any data or other operating system installs. It's not nearly as hard or difficult as everyone is making it out to be. It really isn't.

Re:What FUD (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653577)

How is Debian non intuitive? You just go through the flow and answer the questions. Even my most junior IT employees don't have trouble with it. With the new Fedora, it's a maze of twisty passages, all alike. There is no flow. There is no wizard. There's just a bunch of nonlinear roundabouts in a hub and spoke model. It's less like the Debian method of driving from point A to point B. It's more like the Roman model where all roads lead to Rome, and you have to return to Rome to get to anywhere else. That's why technical people hated the confused roundabout, illogical mess that the Fedora installer has become.

Re:What FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653615)

It's not that debian is getting harder (it used to be the easy one!) it's that people are getting dumber.

Re:What FUD (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 2 years ago | (#42653629)

We know what that means.

The fact is Fedora is even easier than Debian so WTF is this guy talking about when he says saying a disk is full is waaay too advanced. Yes, for my Mom she doesn't know what that means and is too advanced for joe six pack. But for the geek crowd it makes sense.

I have not run Fedora 18 yet but I plan to this weekend. The screenshots look similiar to earlier versions so I assume it is just that. I do not see the big deal with anaconda. It talks about disk space, some packages online, then reboots but goes into another setup after a reboot (just like Windows 7) where it asks for a user account. Then done.

Re:What FUD (4, Insightful)

sjames (1099) | about 2 years ago | (#42653903)

It doesn't look like FUD exactly. That bit about two HD icons with identical model names side by side in no particular order isn't a geek vs. non-geek issue, it's a bad UI decision.

No auto login isn't geek vs. non-geek either, nor is having to root around on the fs to find the installer.

Things like that are just broken for geeks and non-geeks alike. It's a big step backwards from the old installer.

Re:What FUD (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 2 years ago | (#42654273)

So in a sense Fedora is for IT pros but not unix hardcore elitists who know what a wifi chipset is or what it means when a disk is full.

WTF? Any "IT Pro" in my org who didn't know what those things were would not be working there long if I had anything to do with it.

Oh... I get it. You're trying to get us to believe that an "IT Pro" is a product manager or some other variety of tie-caddy. And that a "Unix elitist" is what most of us would think of as an "IT Pro".

Which to me demonstrates that you are probably an idiot.

who gives a shit? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653487)

Fedora developers don't give a flying fuck what this guy thinks.

4 links are definitely necessary (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653491)

I guess Dedoimedo's page rank just shot through the roof.

Not a review (0)

stephanruby (542433) | about 2 years ago | (#42653503)

Why does the review have more about the reviewer than the software being reviewed?

Re:Not a review (1)

Baloroth (2370816) | about 2 years ago | (#42653713)

Probably because, from a quick glance, the only thing worse in his review than the new installer is the review itself. Seriously, he should stop trying to be funny, because, well, he isn't. I particularly love how he has no less than 3 screenshots of an option called "full disk summary and options" in a section complaining about how it doesn't display the full information about the disk (seems he never bothered to click on it). True, he shouldn't have to click on it, given the design of the installer, but clearly the basic installer screen didn't like his setup, so the fallback option seems logical.

shunky3 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653509)

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We can call it Canonical syndrome (2)

mrmeval (662166) | about 2 years ago | (#42653527)

Do all the cool touch screen wicked BITCHUN shit but do it for the wrong system in the wrong way with the wrong tools and make them happy Magic Kingdom goers GAG on it.

stone age (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653547)

People still use Fedora?

Re:stone age (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653855)

Huh! Distrowatch [distrowatch.com]

Ubunto is for beginners-Neanderthals.

fedup (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653557)

worked great for me.(It upgraded from Fedora 17 to 18)

non-linear installers are good, at least in theory (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653603)

Quoth the Fedora wiki [fedoraproject.org] ,

With the change to a hub-and-spoke model rather than a linear wizard model, the new UI allows users to entirely skip screens that they aren't interested in interacting with, streamlining the install process to only those screens that are most essential for installation to proceed.

So, it's like the Debian installer, only less powerful and more confusing!

/me runs away

Re:non-linear installers are good, at least in the (4, Insightful)

sjames (1099) | about 2 years ago | (#42653977)

Agreed. Debian got it right. Installation is a mostly linear process. There may be some steps that can be skipped in some cases, but the order will not really change. You never install the base system before partitioning the drive, etc. I am an expert and I very rarely have any need or desire to go out of order with a Debian installation.

I appreciate that Fedora wants to accommodate those rare cases, but doing away with all concept of a linear order isn't the way to do it. I can't imagine what they're thinking with Fedora.

Re:non-linear installers are good, at least in the (1)

mewyn (663989) | about 2 years ago | (#42654093)

> So, it's like the Debian installer, only less powerful and more confusing!

Well, yeah, but it's a lot of new code for this release. I'm hoping in Erwin's Kitty they will have an advanced button that will help out. If nothing else, at least have a way to get more package granularity.

Try OpenSuSE! (5, Informative)

Negroponte J. Rabit (2820825) | about 2 years ago | (#42653609)

A beta of Fedora 18's installer completely wiped my hard drive. I told it to partition the drive. It partitioned it, installed Linux fine, and ALSO formatted every NTFS partition to a fresh EXT4. Even for a beta, this is a sign there's something seriously wrong. After using SuSE for years, then Ubuntu for years, then a very brief love affair with Fedora 17 KDE (mainly, delta RPM updates), I returned to OpenSuSE after 10 years away and probably will never switch away again. As far as integrated admin tools and the installer, OpenSuSE's have always been exceptional. Also, my reason for switching from DEB to RPM-based distro was it seems Debian's core package management tools haven't seemed to evolve much in years while RPM appears to have improved quite a bit. The delta-compressed updates is a huge deal for me, but also the general speed of the tools. OpenSuSE's zypper tool also gives a bit of freedom in installing 'unmatched' later versions of libs but if things go wrong, it's easy to trace and downgrade. Also, the package management tools integrate with btrfs snapshots and there's a powerful tool called 'snapper' which gives you quick access to rollback or version diffs.

Re:Try OpenSuSE! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653813)

Couldn't get it to boot...unfortunately I'm one of those charlatans that made the fatal mistake of buying a computer with UEFI and no way to turn secure boot off (HP p6-2142), I can't get it to boot anything other than Windows 7, Ubuntu or Fedora. And I was hoping to use FreeBSD...

Re:Try OpenSuSE! (2)

jdeisenberg (37914) | about 2 years ago | (#42654163)

I used SuSE in the past and really liked it, but broke away from it when Novell/SuSE got in bed with Microsoft. I'm curious to what extent OpenSuSE and Microsoft are connected, if at all.

Re:Try OpenSuSE! (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about 2 years ago | (#42654315)

Satisfied SUSE/OpenSUSE user here, since 2004 or so.

Fedora 18 would not install on my... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653639)

new Lenovo desktop, keps complailing about 'boot partition' eve thou i clearly spare a 500mb /boot partition.

i gave up finally.

Re:Fedora 18 would not install on my... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654301)

Half a gig for /boot? What are you keeping in there--an aircraft carrier?

Glad I'm not the only one. (1)

rex_s (2562299) | about 2 years ago | (#42653651)

I'm what I would consider a 'normal' Linux user, if that exists. I'm comfortable in Linux and with the terminal. I tend to freak out during partitioning anyway, because most of my systems are dual-boot with ntfs and ext partitions. I do not like the new partition creator. FWIW, after the install I went back to beefy miracle, but for issues more related to legacy hardware than anything else.

Sticking with Slackware (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653667)

I'll stick with Slackware and its sane (if a bit dated) installer.

Tails Linux version 0.16 - Warning! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653673)

Tails Linux version 0.16 - Firewall Disabling Script Waits For Exploitation

If youâ(TM)re running Tails version 0.15 or 0.16, please locate and delete the following file each session: /usr/local/sbin/do_not_ever_run_me

The file, if ran with correct permissions, will completely disable your firewall! So much for the idea that Tails always routes everything through Tor! Where this news has been posted and comments allowed, mysterious âoeanonymousâ users have expressed their low brow intelligence leaving comments such as, âoeWell you need to be root to run it so it doesnâ(TM)t matter, if you have root you can do anything!â

First of all, a file called âoedo_not_ever_run_meâ shouldnâ(TM)t be on a Linux system. If it should NEVER BE RUN, and that means by anyone, root or user, local or remote, it SHOULD NOT BE INCLUDED IN THE DISTRIBUTION!

Any current or future exploit which targets this file will âoedrop the shieldsâ for the Tails user.

Perhaps Tails itself in its next version, 0.17, should be nicknamed, âoedo_not_ever_run_meâ.

Another questionable decision by the Tails developers is to place the following line within the torrc file (located at /etc/tor/torrc):

## We donâ(TM)t care if applications do their own DNS lookups since our Tor
## enforcement will handle it safely.
WarnUnsafeSocks 0

Oh, really? We donâ(TM)t care? Who is we? Itâ(TM)s not me! As the man page for Tor states, this is set to 1 by default, yet Tails sets it for 0! So if something âoeleaksâ, you will never know it? Each session, delete this line or comment it out so the default is 1 like it should be for a Tor session.

What else can we find in this anonymously developed distribution? Iâ(TM)m glad Iâ(TM)m not driving a car with software made by this group of developers.

What happened to you Linux... (4, Interesting)

atomican (2799855) | about 2 years ago | (#42653703)

I don't understand what's happening with Linux these days. Buggy installers, crappy UIs in an attempt to change the "GUI paradigm" for whatever reason, unstable software (particularly compared to that in, say, Windows 7), kernel/power regressions, etc. I was interested in Linux because it was (at some point in time) more robust and stable than Windows, that it was technically superior. Now I'm not so sure anymore.

NB. I'm talking about desktop use; I'm sure Linux is superior in many ways for servers and embedded devices - the desktop experience as a whole still seems rather immature still unfortunately.

Re:What happened to you Linux... (3)

bmo (77928) | about 2 years ago | (#42653821)

I'm currently using Precise Pangolin with KDE 4.9.5 as the desktop.

It's spectacularly stable and useful.

--
BMO

Re:What happened to you Linux... (2)

atomican (2799855) | about 2 years ago | (#42653889)

KDE seems nice, but it's also the anti-GNOME - GNOME has too few functionality, KDE has too much. Nothing against a lot of functionality (I definitely prefer more to less), but when it gets to the stage where you have a dedicated checkbox in KDE which allows you to toggle between a tick or a cross for the Checkbox style, I think it becomes a bit too much. Makes it harder to find the actually useful options you want to fiddle with.

Having said that, the KDE team doesn't appear to be interested in destroying what they've built by chasing the touch phantom, so I guess there's that.

Re:What happened to you Linux... (3, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | about 2 years ago | (#42654039)

The KDE team has a touch interface. It's pretty good.

It's called Plasma Active

http://plasma-active.org/ [plasma-active.org]

They just keep it separate from the Desktop interface, because you know, desktops and handhelds are different things.

I wish Microsoft knew this.

--
BMO

Re:What happened to you Linux... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653839)

What is happening is that the marketing people are calling the shots. Same thing with Apple. Surface before substance is their raison d'être.

Re:What happened to you Linux... (1)

atomican (2799855) | about 2 years ago | (#42653897)

I'm no Apple fan but I've used the occasional Apple product and can certainly see and feel the quality of the design that goes into them. It just so happens that Apple are good at both design AND marketing. They wouldn't be worth as much as they are without at least some decent products.

Re:What happened to you Linux... (1)

Rebus B (2820895) | about 2 years ago | (#42654145)

Sorry, should have said "Same thing with Apple -recently-".

I am actually a big Apple fan. Have always found their OS to be superior to Microsoft's offerings and the *nix based systems I have used over the years for the reasons you site. The latest releases are slipping, though, in the design department; suffering from app/OS bloat with some really poor UI choices (for the desktop anyway.) They are going against their own Human Interface Guidelines and again it is about the surface (literally since they are moving the iOS paradigm into osX) appealing to the general consumer audience at the expense of a powerful system unburdened with fluff for the professional users. In other words, that great balance between quality design and effective marking is skewing in the wrong direction.

The lesson that both marketing and development should take away is that tablets and touch devices are different than desktops. That the people who create stuff on computers for a living have different needs than the people who use them primarily for entertainment. Don't cripple my workstation OS to make it more like my smart phone.

Re:What happened to you Linux... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654339)

It just so happens that Apple are good at both design AND marketing.

Good at design? Tell me about the Dock, that jumbled, jiggling, orderless mess of icons through which people hunt and peck for the app they want to use. Ooops, note how it changes dimensions as you move your mouse over the expanding icons!

Re:What happened to you Linux... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654025)

You must have had bad luck/not tried Linux on the desktop in a while. My desktop (ha, it's actually a laptop I use as a desktop) has approx. a shit ton of browsers windows/tabs open. VM running XP for an IDE I need, and ton of other insignifigant things like IRC client, editor, etc.

Uptime 47 days, load .21 .22 .22 -- last reboot was for kernel

My parent's comp has Win 7. (side note: I'm not one of those slashdotters who trys to force his OS choice on other people, and they know (more or less) how to use Windows, so great). I don't hear many complaints about it, and the little I use it it seems fine, but I donno if I could get similar stability out of it.

P.s. I'm not in some uptime competion, I just don't need to reboot so why do it?

Re:What happened to you Linux... (1)

atomican (2799855) | about 2 years ago | (#42654211)

The last time I tried it was last week (Linux Mint 14 running MATE). I ditched it because of a big issue when trying to use the USB 3 ports on my desktop - maybe 1 out of 10 attempts would the ports actually work when you plugged an external HDD in. A known issue with this particular USB 3 controller (Renesas uPD720200) and it's a big issue as I use the USB 3 ports to backup and shift large volumes of data every few weeks, and it would take many many hours longer to try to do so using any other method (and wouldn't' be as easy). Works perfectly in Windows 7, fails in Linux. Don't care if it's bad vendor support or whatever, it's merely the facts.

I guess my point is that try as I might, I honestly cannot find something on the desktop that Linux can do which Windows cannot (and generally the opposite is more common when ti comes to device and software support). I wish it were not so, but I wish a lot of things.

But I must be severely brain damaged, for I still enjoy using Linux and continue poking with desktop distros every so often, even though logic dictates I should have given up ages ago...

Re:What happened to you Linux... (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | about 2 years ago | (#42654351)

Fedora was always buggy as hell, it's officially a test platform for RHEL so I don't know what did you expect. If you want stability use Centos or a Debian based distro.

Only Sane full DE option is (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653709)

Kubuntu... (or debian+KDE)

KDE is the only sane feature rich DE, and ubuntu/debian is the best base distro with the widest support.

So.... kubuntu ftw.

Too bad. (2)

ezakimak (160186) | about 2 years ago | (#42653715)

I haven't used RH in over a decade--but do remember years ago they had a decent installer that would even pull up a tetris game to occupy you while it copied files. Sad to hear it's gone downhill. (Or am I recalling Caldera's installer?)

Re:Too bad. (1)

caseih (160668) | about 2 years ago | (#42653789)

Caldera is what you are remembering.

... so I rebooted. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653729)

rebooting a live distro and hoping it fixes the problems is what i call really stupid.

Re:... so I rebooted. (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 years ago | (#42653861)

He obviously comes from the Windows world, where rebooting actually sometimes fixes random behaviour.

Takes a while to learn that it ain't so with another OS.

Re:... so I rebooted. (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 2 years ago | (#42654135)

why not, mint 11 would though all sorts of errors on boot, the seconds boot a whole new set of errors, keep rebooting and it would eventually unfuck itself, and thats why I quit using mint

Not so bad (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653757)

Granted I was using it when it was in beta, but I didn't find the installer so bad, in fact I thought the UI was pretty good. I appreciated that I was able to do things a bit less linearly than with Anaconda. The only issue I had was with partitioning. I was trying to do some non-standard things there and it was more difficult that with previous versions. As I said, I was using the beta version, so it may be a bit different now, but that is my two cents.

Avoid it on ATI video laptops (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653773)

If you're on a laptop using some ati chipsets, beware of F18. The video hardware won't resume after a suspend so you have to hard reboot it when resuming to get control back. I can't believe they last that bug go thorugh.

And don't get me started on the stupidity of /tmp as tmpfs...

Re:Avoid it on ATI video laptops (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654277)

This seems to be a kernel level power management problem, that happens with several distro. This happened with the latest version of Mint I tried and with the version of OpenSUSE I've currently got installed too. There's a few bug reports in various distro forums you can find if you google about it.

Installer Needs Improvement, Especially Kickstart (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653849)

Look,

I just finished testing my fully automated installation of Fedora 18 with PXE and kickstart. Was it a pain to get it to work, and are there installer bugs, yes, and yes. I worked on getting a functional network built system, because Fedora 18 provides the best GNOME 3 experience to date. They need to work on the installer, but this was the first cut. Feedback will make it better, and it was a big deal to prolong the release to get a barely functional new anaconda. I Installed the released version manually 4 times before automating the whole process. I did it because it is better, YMMV.

Is it the Windows 8 disease? (1, Interesting)

Opportunist (166417) | about 2 years ago | (#42653877)

A while ago, everyone tried to copy Apple's "intuitive" interface. The idea was, mostly, to make it confusing for geeks so it has to be intuitive for non-geeks, or at least they have to feel on equal footing, at least it seems that way from the usual results.

Now the source for ideas is Windows 8, the "everything must look like it's for a tablet" experience?

Re:Is it the Windows 8 disease? (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 2 years ago | (#42654127)

yea linux has been doing this bullshit for a couple years now, and continuing to make the whole system worse ... pretty sad that ubuntu 8 is the current high water mark

Yep (4, Interesting)

markdavis (642305) | about 2 years ago | (#42653905)

I installed Fedora 18 (KDE Spin, of course) on Friday and "counterintuitive and confusing" was a pretty good description. And the partitioning- yeesh, what a mess- please just give me the option for something nice like gparted. I was very disappointed. 17 was much better. Both were still better than Ubuntu. Neither is as good as Mandriva/Mageia.

There has to be a balance between streamlining vs. asking questions vs. expert mode. There is little balance in Fedora 18. I have a feeling it will be revised quite a bit for 19 (at least I hope it will).

Seems alright to me (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42653991)

I thought the installer (while not really much of an improvement) was pretty good. It installed the OS properly and even made creating a LUKS/LVM setup easy. Maybe I just got lucky but all in all it seems like a solid step in the right direction.

Windows (1)

Bensam123 (1340765) | about 2 years ago | (#42654055)

Dare I say this is why people use Windows and not Nix? I'm sure you could recompile the mess to your liking though... Just get g'ma to do that.

http://cryptome.org/2013/01/tails-exploit.htm (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42654077)

21 January 2013

Tails Linux version 0.16 - Firewall Disabling Script Waits For Exploitation

A sends:

Tails Linux version 0.16 - Firewall Disabling Script Waits For Exploitation

"If youâ(TM)re running Tails version 0.15 or 0.16, please locate and delete the following file each session: /usr/local/sbin/do_not_ever_run_me

The file, if ran with correct permissions, will completely disable your firewall! So much for the idea that Tails always routes everything through Tor! Where this news has been posted and comments allowed, mysterious âoeanonymousâ users have expressed their low brow intelligence leaving comments such as, âoeWell you need to be root to run it so it doesnâ(TM)t matter, if you have root you can do anything!â

First of all, a file called âoedo_not_ever_run_meâ shouldnâ(TM)t be on a Linux system. If it should NEVER BE RUN, and that means by anyone, root or user, local or remote, it SHOULD NOT BE INCLUDED IN THE DISTRIBUTION!

Any current or future exploit which targets this file will âoedrop the shieldsâ for the Tails user.

Perhaps Tails itself in its next version, 0.17, should be nicknamed, âoedo_not_ever_run_meâ.

Another questionable decision by the Tails developers is to place the following line within the torrc file (located at /etc/tor/torrc):

## We donâ(TM)t care if applications do their own DNS lookups since our Tor

## enforcement will handle it safely.

WarnUnsafeSocks 0

Oh, really? We donâ(TM)t care? Who is we? Itâ(TM)s not me! As the man page for Tor states, this is set to 1 by default, yet Tails sets it for 0! So if something âoeleaksâ, you will never know it? Each session, delete this line or comment it out so the default is 1 like it should be for a Tor session.

What else can we find in this anonymously developed distribution? Iâ(TM)m glad Iâ(TM)m not driving a car with software made by this group of developers."

aka: Tails 0.16 lower shields

src: anonymous

reply: no, throwaway acct

SELinux (1)

ChrisMaple (607946) | about 2 years ago | (#42654123)

It looks like there's an option to disable SELinux, which I consider a screaming pile of excrement. Previously, installing SELinux couldn't be prevented and disabling it caused the boot process to fail. I'm delighted that there's now an option to turn it off, if that works.

Too bad I rely absolutely on one computer, and can't afford the risk involved in a botched install of F18.

F18 upgrade observations and whining (2)

WaffleMonster (969671) | about 2 years ago | (#42654173)

I don't know what I was thinking to enlist in redhats beta program (AKA fedora) .. I never admitted to having a brain.

Starting from Fedora 16.

Put F18 disk in drive and boots new UI. My immediate thought was oh great more ultra modern zombie interface bs.

I was confused do I just click next and continue? Where are all the options/upgrade settings and all of the old raid/enterprise? Will it just be smart enough to work and upgrade my system?

What scares me the most is that I'm 95% sure it would have auto-installed itself had I clicked continue with NO prompting and no scary messages of any kind. I say this cause I later spun up a VM with F18 and when you click continue on the main screen if its not shadowed out thats it.

Then I give up and RTFM check wiki apparently you can't upgrade from anything earlier than 17.

Okie so previous attempts to use the yum repo approach always ended in disaster...burn DVD... upgrade 16->17 from DVD runs flawlessly as ususal.

I'm now running F17. Wiki says I need to install fedup to upgrade to F18... alright do that.

Reboot and the fedup fedora icon keeps blinking on screen as if it is doing something but nothing happens..ever.. I waited an hour and it was not even touching the disks... hit escape to check for any useful hints messages or errors...none...of course.

So much for fedup... fedup with fedup just way too obvious.

Next reboot to F17...hey I know I'll type yum update and ah try again..yea thats it... it downloads tons of patches and I reboot to an instant kernel panic.. apparently a regression..so I spend the next 20 minutes trying to figure out how to change grub to prefer the old kernel version that still works. The files I found had an annoying nack for being auto generated with comments pointing to stuff only relevant for previous versions of grub. In hindsight uninstalling the bad kernel package would have been a lot easier.

So next I try fedup again after clearing out its data and surprise the same problem.

So much for F18 I'll try again with F19 and hope for better luck.

If linux distro folk are looking something actually broken to improve here are a few ideas:

So once installed the UI's look really nice...lol love KDE's windows 7 gadgets knockoff down to the exact behavior and configuration icons.... but still linux fonts suck, low quality, poor selection, too big, too aliased.

Try replacing a failed disk in a raid1 intel matrix fakeraid setup with a drive of a different (larger) size... WTF.. honestly.. its f'in impossible. or mirroring an existing system without reinstalling. Also impossible. In windows it takes 20 seconds and a few clicks of a mouse.

Replace ping with a version that works with both address families like all of the other operating systems and all of the other network utilities.

Please keep at the least the basic x86 libraries by default on 64-bit systems so we can run the same commercial stuff without going thru unecessary hoops.

Preupgrade (1)

FrankDrebin (238464) | about 2 years ago | (#42654189)

Presumably the bad installer has no impact when upgrading in place. Any field reports from those running preupgrade on F17?
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