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After A Year, Emacswiki Alternative Shutting Down

Unknown Lamer posted about a year ago | from the oddmuse-shall-reign-supreme dept.

Open Source 127

About a year ago, someone decided that EmacsWiki was outdated and unorganized, to the detriment of the Emacs community. So, he started a new wiki (WikiEmacs, choosing Mediawiki instead of Oddmuse, and attempting to give it a saner organizational structure). In the end, his project failed to grain traction, and it's shutting down for the greater good of Emacs: "I want to extend a big public apology to Alex Schroeder for my harsh criticism of EmacsWiki. One year later I see that stewarding documentation projects and nurturing a healthy community around them is much harder than writing software. I’m but a humble software engineer and you’ll have to forgive me for my misguided actions. I hope that something good has(will) come up from all this drama. At the very least I urge everyone who cares for EmacsWiki to try and clean up, extend and improve at least a couple of articles on subjects that are of importance to him. I know that’s something I’ll be doing from now on."

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127 comments

The "emacs community"?? (2, Insightful)

Viol8 (599362) | about a year ago | (#42724337)

Is this serious? Its a fscking editor for gods sake. Is there a "vi community"? Who the hell cares enough to even bother? Or perhaps I'm misguided and there are thousands of people out there who find editors the most fascinating programs ever written. Is there an "ls" or "rm" community just out of interest?

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724357)

Well, there's a VIVIVIth community and it worships the devil.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724399)

Heretic.

Jus an editor?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724395)

Wrong, it's an OS!

Re:Jus an editor?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42735439)

It's just missing a kernel and some stuff.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

slim (1652) | about a year ago | (#42724413)

Is this serious? Its a fscking editor for gods sake. Is there a "vi community"?

Emacs is an operating system, that just happens that the text editor is its highest profile app. M-x tetris loads another one.

I never grokked Emacs. Perhaps if I'd joined the community?

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724535)

I never grokked Emacs. Perhaps if I'd joined the community?

Either you arrived after the time when using a computer meant you had to login via a terminal, or, you were never a sysadmin.

Only when constrained by a single, text-based session can one truly grok emacs.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724675)

What's wrong with screen?

Or in other words: what can I do with Emacs that I cannot do with multiple tabs in screen?

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42725343)

Be a text editor elitist, though you'd be disqualified if you've been laid already.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (3, Interesting)

slim (1652) | about a year ago | (#42724719)

Aha, you want terminal war stories.

On my year out from university in the early 90s, I worked for a big IT multinational. We didn't have direct internet access from the office. To reach my university's newsgroups, I had to telnet across the Atlantic to a gateway machine, log into that, then from there telnet back across the Atlantic to a university server, and run the tin newsreader there. There was a minimum lag of a couple of seconds, and every few minutes there would be a lag of 20 seconds or more, during which all my keypresses would buffer up.

That's where I learned vi, probably to a higher standard than I've retained. Under those circumstances vi cursor movement is a real boon. You do not want to hit the arrow button 20 times to move 20 characters. You want to type '20', or '3w' to move 3 words, etc.

On about three occasions I've sat down to do an Emacs tutorial, but it never makes sense. I forget which key is "Meta" and which is "Ctrl"; I forget the long command names; I give up and return to the safety of vi. There's always been `screen` for running multiple shells in a terminal.

I don't tell other people what editor to use. I've just never wrapped my head around Emacs, while Vi made sense pretty much straight away.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724793)

Vi is an editor - emacs is a religion.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42725961)

Control u 20 Control f
Control u 3 Meta f

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

s4ltyd0g (452701) | about a year ago | (#42726323)

No sysadmin worth his salt uses EMACS.

cheers
p.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

kqs (1038910) | about a year ago | (#42729909)

Any unix sysadmin worth their salt can use ed, emacs and vi, and knows when to use each one. Any sysadmin who cannot find a use for one or more of them needs to be tossed back into the sea for more maturing and experience.

Religious arguments are fun, but when the systems are crashing and the backups are not restoring, you better be able to use every tool in the toolbox, not just the ones you think are "worthy".

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

s4ltyd0g (452701) | about a year ago | (#42734549)

Sorry emacs doesn't get to sit with vi or ed. even on Linux and FreeBSD, you'll see nano before you'll ever see Emacs there to help you rescue/setup your system. But true the rest of your statement about sysadmins needing to know many tools.

regards

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

smed (252644) | about a year ago | (#42730363)

No sysadmin worth his salt uses EMACS.

cheers
p.

Don't you have a bridge you need to get back to? ;)

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

jellomizer (103300) | about a year ago | (#42726553)

I had to login via a terminal and I have worked as a sysadmin.
Emacs just too too long to open, and I was better off with smaller lighter text editors, such as vi, however I tend to prefer jed which had many of the emacs commands but was a text editor not a mega system, but jed isn't part of a normal distribution, so I would fall back to vi.

With Unix and Linux systems you can still crl-z
to suspend your program and open an other one and do a fg to get back. There was also a split command that was widely used.

The Unix design was best for running a lot of small applications together to create a bigger functionality. EMacs just barfed on that methodology, by giving you this big heavy program to run that duplicated the efforts of your many commands that were defaultly installed into your OS.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

slim (1652) | about a year ago | (#42728353)

I am not an Emacs user, but I can recite the Emacs user's response to all of this.

Emacs takes a long time to start up - but once it's running, you don't close it for ages.

Emacs *does* embrace the UNIX methodology of running lots of small applications together -- but Emacs is the host for all these small programs. Let Emacs be your shell - and from there spawn all the seds, greps and sorts you want.

(But I use Vim)

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about a year ago | (#42733891)

> Only when constrained by a single, text-based session can one truly grok emacs.

Ah, that explains it then. I started with BSD and had job control almost from the beginning, so wasn't constrained by a single text-based session, despite being confined (at first) to a VT100. By the time we were forced by business interests to bring SysV into the machine room, (which did not have job control) these things called Sun workstations had become available.

I did have to *support* emacs, but never felt the need to actually use it. I'm a little surprised it still exists. But I guess there are still people out there using PDP-11s.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (5, Funny)

Rik Sweeney (471717) | about a year ago | (#42724415)

Is there an "ls" or "rm" community just out of interest?

There used to be an "rm" community, but it got deleted :P

Re:The "emacs community"?? (2)

vlm (69642) | about a year ago | (#42724439)

There used to be an "rm" community, but it got deleted :P

I'd link to the wikipedia article, but those deletionist aholes got to it first

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

obarthelemy (160321) | about a year ago | (#42724605)

There is even an xxcopy community :-p I've tried time and again to stop using it, but I just can't find a GUI way to do the same things.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42725093)

this made my morning! haha what good humor!

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

lucm (889690) | about a year ago | (#42729505)

Is there an "ls" or "rm" community just out of interest?

There was a "fork" community but they forked so many times that they did not qualify as a community anymore.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (3, Informative)

guacamole (24270) | about a year ago | (#42724457)

Well, the issue is that vi or rm, however dear to their users are mostly viewed as a tool, a damn good one but still a tool. But Emacs really does have a caring community around it. For example, most people in the Lisp/Scheme community use Emacs, and not by coincidence. Emacs is really a miniature programming platform for developing applications written in a version of Lisp, complete with a compiler, interpreter, debugger, and a virtual machine. Emacs's text editor itself is a Lisp application. As you can imagine, Lisp people take a special pride in this.

Next, it was already mentioned that Emacs is more than a text editor. It's almost a complete work environment. In a typical emacs session you can have multiple windows, buffers, frames open for editing multiple files, running shells, interpreters, build scripts, info sessions, etc all running at the same time.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (2)

Viol8 (599362) | about a year ago | (#42724477)

"It's almost a complete work environment. In a typical emacs session you can have multiple windows, buffers, frames open for editing multiple files, running shells, interpreters, build scripts, info sessions, etc all running at the same time."

I'm sure that was useful in 1980 before X Windows came along. But when I can have a dozen xterms open on my screen why on earth would I bother doing it all inside an editor?

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724669)

I suppose you could view is as an alternative to Gnome/KDE in that sense.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (3, Informative)

jrumney (197329) | about a year ago | (#42724703)

But when I can have a dozen xterms open on my screen why on earth would I bother doing it all inside an editor?

When I can have a dozen ttys open on virtual consoles, why on earth would I bother doing it all inside X?

Or more seriously, if I run a shell inside Emacs, then I have all the editing commands of Emacs at my fingertips. shell-command-on-region is an obvious one that saves a lot of head this/tail that to narrow down the part of the previous command that I want to operate on for the next command in the pipe.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about a year ago | (#42725677)

"When I can have a dozen ttys open on virtual consoles, why on earth would I bother doing it all inside X?"

Umm, so you can see them all at the same time.

"if I run a shell inside Emacs, then I have all the editing commands of Emacs at my fingertips."

Newsflash - most shells have had vi and emacs style line editing commands built in for decades.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

cduffy (652) | about a year ago | (#42726547)

Newsflash - most shells have had vi and emacs style line editing commands built in for decades.

But they don't capture output, so you couldn't use them for the exact example the parent gave that you were supposedly refuting.

There are many reasons to use M-x shell (3, Informative)

tamyrlin (51) | about a year ago | (#42724705)

Because there is a nice integration between the other buffers and your terminals. For example, say that you want to run a few commands in the same directory that the file you are editing exists. In that case you just type M-x shell to start a shell in that directory. (Note that this also works if you are working with a file on another computer via ssh. Your shell will then automatically start over an ssh session.)

If you are running commands that outputs a lot of text in the terminal the search capability of emacs is really useful as well.

Another use case is the integration between macros, text buffers, and terminals. Consider a use case where you are editing an HTML file and want to ensure that all images referred to in IMG tags are available at a remote location. It is then easy to create a macro in emacs that finds all IMG tags, extract the file name and copy the file name to a suitable scp command that you can paste into the terminal window.

However, I must admit that I still have a few xterms open, but I find myself gravitating towards running shell commands in a shell buffer in emacs, especially when programming. Also, there are of course other ways to solve all of these issues (scripting, file redirection, etc), but for myself I usually find myself preferring to use emacs in most of these cases.

Re:There are many reasons to use M-x shell (1)

Unknown Lamer (78415) | about a year ago | (#42728177)

The big shame here is that ... the reason we need Emacs is that X (well, and UNIX) sucks. All of these things should work everywhere.

A Lisp listener and UNIX shell are roughly equivalent; except the language provided by the Lisp shell is far more expressive. Instead of hundreds of blobs you call with arbitrary switches, piping around streams of bits disguised as strings... you have a library of tens of thousands of functions, with a sane calling convention, that document themselves interactively, etc. It just completely breaks down the barrier between programming and using the machine.

Re:There are many reasons to use M-x shell (1)

doom (14564) | about a year ago | (#42730635)

For me it's a matter of access to my registers, rather than just "the clipboard". I've got custom commands to do stuff in dired like stash the path in register p and the current name in register n, so I can switch to a sub-shell and use those in commands without re-typing them.

It's also nice to have access to the full kill-ring rather than just the top of it (non-emacs people: you do understand that it's silly you can only put one thing in the clipboard, right? Inside emacs you've got a stack to work with, not just one location).

I also like to save shell buffers to files, then emacs auto-save can take over, keeping a record of everything I do.

Web browser? (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about a year ago | (#42731947)

Does emacs have a built in web browser? I think they should toss in both elinks and GNOME Web (for Xemacs). Have a key that would toggle between what are Windows or tabs in Chrome, Firefox or IE. Have an RSS reader as well. Once all this is there, one can browse /. from a good ole vt100 terminal

Re:The "emacs community"?? (4, Insightful)

water-and-sewer (612923) | about a year ago | (#42724493)

Is this serious?

YES.

Is there a "vi community"?

YES.

Who the hell cares enough to even bother?

Anybody who uses these powerful and complex applications. Both apps are capable of highly complicated things, and somewhere out there are talented people who know how to do them. I'm not one of them, but I'm getting there. From custom syntax highlighting to macros, scripts, and more (hell, you can use emacs to read email and/or Usenet, etc.).

As for you, you can keep using whatever other software you like.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Viol8 (599362) | about a year ago | (#42725579)

"Both apps are capable of highly complicated things,"

Ok, so what - apart from editing - can they do better than other tools? Programming? No thanks, i'll stick to python and C++. Games? Don't make me laugh.

So what exactly?

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

fatphil (181876) | about a year ago | (#42726243)

I'm not one myself, but a lot of my fellow emacs-using work colleagues use emacs as their mail client.

I do, however, use emacs' GNUS as my preferred usenet client. I first used it very briefly over 20 years ago, and have tried at least 20 other clients since, and every one has been significantly inferior to GNUS in some way.

I also use it as my preferred wrapper around gdb. And that ``M-x gdb'' leads you to a debugger that can debug C++ programs. And python debugging is no further than ``M-x pdb'' away. That you think emacs is somehow incompatible with C++ or python shows that you really don't know enough about emacs to sensibly criticise it.

However, I will grant you that it is a bloaty pile of crap, so much so that I refuse to upgrade beyond v21 due to its exponential bloating. However, due to its modular nature, almost nothing you don't want is loaded at load time, you need to specifically request its loading in your .emacs. It just pulls in too many dependencies "just in case" and I don't want tons of shit on my hard disk.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about a year ago | (#42724519)

Is this serious? Its a fscking editor for gods sake. Is there a "vi community"? Who the hell cares enough to even bother? Or perhaps I'm misguided and there are thousands of people out there who find editors the most fascinating programs ever written. Is there an "ls" or "rm" community just out of interest?

Emacs is so complex and featureful program that it merits for a community. The other programs that you mentioned (vi, ls, rm) are so simple that any discrete community is not necessary.

Obligatory XKCD (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42725751)

http://xkcd.com/378/

Re:The "emacs community"?? (5, Funny)

Sockatume (732728) | about a year ago | (#42724521)

Emacs is somewhat more sophisticated than simply an editor. If there can be communities trading tips and advice for Microsoft Office there sure as hell can be communities for Emacs.

As a vim user I naturally don't have to talk to a community because this superior editor gives me telepathic powers and a glossy, easy-to-brush mane.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724779)

Wait, Emacs is an editor? I thought it was an OS but I couldn't find a decent way to edit text files so I switched back to Linux.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42725043)

Dear people of Earth,
Everyone who knows about Emacs has heard this joke. You do not need to tell it to people, unless you're telling them about Emacs for the first time. And no, no one on slashdot is hearing about Emacs for the first time.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

Darinbob (1142669) | about a year ago | (#42734741)

Emacs is a programmable system designed primarily as an editor. As such it is highly customizable in a relatively straight forward way (certainly more straight forward than changing how Eclipse works by rewriting it). Most users may not do more than change default keybindings or changing some configuration settings, but some users create custom editing modes for languages not supported (and it's more powerful in this regard than vim's language mode). Because it's programmable you can do what you want, use it as a shell window perhaps.

Most users stick with emacs because they're used to how it works. The keys are hardwired in their brains and it's too clumsy to relearn something else. Users who start a new job who say "I don't care, tell me what editor to use and I'll follow along" are not the sort to be using emacs anyway. I haven't seen any other editors or IDEs out there that can really replicate Emacs, except maybe for some superficial bindings. I haven't seen anything anywhere that did incremental search.

The wiki is handy. Though I agree it's a bit of a mess and isn't using one of the new fangled blogging-oriented wiki frameworks like some people want.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42735299)

Are there seriously MS Office communities?

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724539)

Don't know about Vi, but there is definitely a Vim community.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724551)

Sure there is an Emacs community.

There's even a Prince of Persia 1 modding community, even though that games is from 1989/1990. :)
http://www.popot.org/ [popot.org]
http://forum.princed.org/ [princed.org]

There will always be small communities about things, even if they are old and long forgotten by most people.
Like Perl communities. ;)

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724563)

Is this serious? Its a fscking editor for gods sake. Is there a "vi community"? Who the hell cares enough to even bother? Or perhaps I'm misguided and there are thousands of people out there who find editors the most fascinating programs ever written. Is there an "ls" or "rm" community just out of interest?

I'm a power user of emacs, but I must admit, i never visited EmacsWiki... One super package I use on a daily basis is org-mode - a todo list system which works great, especially being easily customizable using emacs-lisp. Some people start an emacs instance when they come at work, and do everything in it - e-mail, surfing, a shell here and there...

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

CRCulver (715279) | about a year ago | (#42724613)

Some people start an emacs instance when they come at work, and do everything in it.

And these people need to acquire new skills to stay employed. Emacs has already grown so large that eventually it will achieve sentience and be capable of performing any work that can be done within its buffers.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (1)

Paradigma11 (645246) | about a year ago | (#42724785)

Some people start an emacs instance when they come at work, and do everything in it.

And these people need to acquire new skills to stay employed. Emacs has already grown so large that eventually it will achieve sentience and be capable of performing any work that can be done within its buffers.

But then it will need minions.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724589)

It's not an editor, it's an environment, there's practically nothing you can't do with emacs.

As incredible as it sounds, different people have different requirements...

Re:The "emacs community"?? (2)

SirGarlon (845873) | about a year ago | (#42724671)

Emacs is more like a text-based IDE than "a fscking editor." People write plugins (called "macros") for it in Lisp. Back in the acoustics lab, we had several folks who had written macros for code formatting, LaTeX formatting, and the like (we had several custom extensions to the beloved matlab-mode!). We used to trade macros around, modify them, help each other troubleshoot and improve them ... good times. So yes, Emacs users are a community, and the folks who are still in that lab are probably still part of that community. I use Eclipse now, but in the late '90s, emacs was the best (only?) zero-cost IDE out there.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724879)

You're an idiot.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42732089)

Simple answer: Autism.

Re:The "emacs community"?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42735333)

Its [sic] a fscking editor for gods [sic] sake.

It is a programmable editor, you ignorant.

There are very few things that you can do with "ls" or "rm" in a shell pipeline, but programmable text editors like Vim or Emacs are capable of way more than so called "IDEs", even if this text editors are not capable of displaying sophisticated UIs conveniently. I can't speak much about Emacas, but the #vim channel on Freenode is one of the most populated of the network, there are thousands of add-ons, and several sites devoted only to it.

Too bad I had never hear of WikEmacs before... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724359)

It's true that the "good old" EmacsWiki looks way too old. But to be honest I didn't even know that WikEmacs existed.

I probably, like many, did miss the memo. That's too bad because I just took a look and it looked much better.

Re:Too bad I had never hear of WikEmacs before... (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | about a year ago | (#42724595)

I'm in the same boat. I love EmacsWiki though, and reference it often.
Did work with headless, virtualized Linux nodes accessed via RDP into a Windows server. Everyone's all whining about the security policies, and all.
I slap in a PuTTY distro and Emacs, fix and environment variable, and I'm in there via Tramp Mode [emacswiki.org] like it won't nothin' but a thang.
The other biggie is Org mode [emacswiki.org], a full outlining tool that is mainly driven by the tab key. For doing admin work, it pays heap big dividends to take a lot of notes.
I will admit to using Aquamacs [emacswiki.org] on OS-X.
And yes, for you vi girls, Emacs does have emulation modes. *sigh*

emacs's dead... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724385)

...vi won. Move on, pals.

Re:emacs's dead... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724511)

>> ...vi won. Move on, pals.
Darn nobody told me, ...
well...
META-ALT-CTRL-SHIFT-regexp-ignore "vim* users"

Re:emacs's dead... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42726375)

*UNKOWN COMMAND*

I think you forgot something:

Hyper-F12 to put you into ignore-mode
Esc-Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift-regexp-ignore "vim* users"

) you forgot this! (3, Funny)

lemur3 (997863) | about a year ago | (#42724469)

ok now i feel better..

i hate missing parantheses!

Oh, thank you! (1)

Schmorgluck (1293264) | about a year ago | (#42724531)

Yeah, seriously, it makes me wince each time it happens. Most of the time I'm too lazy to edit Wikipedia pages, but when it comes to parentheses, I feel utterly compelled to.

And I even changed the title of this answer so that there isn't an excess closing parenthesis.

Midnight Commander is the true text editor (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724491)

Emacs and Vi both suck, Midnight Commander is the true text editor.

Improved everything except the owner's motivation. (5, Interesting)

vovick (1397387) | about a year ago | (#42724529)

Shutting down in less than a year because the project got too little attention is foolish as it takes years for most users to discover you. I had no idea it existed, if I knew, I would have tried it as I do believe that EmacsWiki has a fair amount of problems. Shutting down and dragging down all content and time that users were willing to contribute is just ridiculously irresponsible. EmacsWiki may not be perfect, but it has been around for years and I am fairly confident that the owner will not decide to shut it down tomorrow or next year on a whim like this guy.

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (2)

SirGarlon (845873) | about a year ago | (#42724603)

Don't be so harsh. It's perfectly reasonable to shut down a project if it doesn't succeed on the schedule the organizer wants. It would be more foolish to continue to invest in the forked project after realizing it was a mistake at the outset.

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (5, Informative)

bozhidar (2827439) | about a year ago | (#42724657)

I'm not shutting down the project on a whim, a lot of thought and discussions with members of Emacs community are involved in it. The content will be preserved on EmacsWiki and I'll continue to work with Alex and the other members of the EmacsWiki team to (hopefully) improve and clean it up.

Maybe it just needs to become known (1)

ciaran_o_riordan (662132) | about a year ago | (#42724945)

I'm sad to hear that this wiki (that I didn't even know existed) is shutting down.

I've never even heard of WikiEmacs, but I wish I had. A MediaWiki site about Emacs sounds like a perfect match. Maybe lots of other Emacs users would become contributors if they knew it existed. Of all wiki systems, I've found MediaWiki sites to be much more likely to become well maintained and navigable.

I hope WikiEmacs doesn't shut down. I'll probably become a regular contributor.

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (2)

vovick (1397387) | about a year ago | (#42725091)

I dug more deeply into your posts and see now that you planned your wiki as a temporal experiment from the very beginning (and quite explicitly said so). It's great that you intend to preserve the user-created data as well, so nothing of value will be lost. Still, I think your project would have grown much more popular in a few years if you didn't give up and gave some sort of a pledge that it won't be shut down in a year or two. Anyway, thank you for your attempt in improving this valuable source of information.

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42726249)

You tried and failed. The lesson is, never try.

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42726569)

You're a faggot.

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42726873)

WikiEmacs failed because it was garbage. You and your contributors were just duplicating effort for the sake of doing something to pass your boring lives I wager. EmacsWiki maybe a mess but it works...

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42730765)

If it works, then why aren't I using it?

Could you move the content to LibrePlanet? (1)

ciaran_o_riordan (662132) | about a year ago | (#42733411)

Maybe the pages could be moved to the libreplanet.org wiki that FSF hosts.

It's a Mediawiki site, and there's already a community of contributors and a big portion are surely Emacs users. How about it?

Re:Improved everything except the owner's motivati (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724661)

If emacs only died as quickly as this wiki, we'd all be better off.

Same in business (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42725479)

It takes about a year or two for most businesses to break even. Unless your product is life-altering (most aren't), you have to work hard to get an audience. That's why it's quite an achievement if a biz stayed longer than that if you ever talk to any business owner.

EmacsWiki problems? (1)

doom (14564) | about a year ago | (#42730571)

"'... EmacsWiki has a fair amount of problems ..." Actually, I don't think it has any problems at all compared to a lot of other wikis out there. My big complaint is that it doesn't seem to have any google-juice to speak of, so if you do a websearch on a problem you're not immediately steered to the right EmacsWiki page.

Netcraft confirms it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42724755)

It is now official. Netcraft has confirmed: emacs is dying

        One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered emacs community when IDC confirmed that emacs market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all used editors. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that emacs has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. emacs is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive editor test.

        You don't need to be the Amazing Kreskin to predict emacs's future. The hand writing is on the wall: emacs faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for emacs because emacs is dying. Things are looking very bad for emacs. As many of us are already aware, emacs continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

      GNU/emacs is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departure of long time emacs developer Richard Stallman only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: emacs is dying.

        Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

      GNU/emacs leader Stallman states that there are 7000 users of GNU/emacs. How many users of Gosling emacs are there? Let's see. The number of GNU/emacs versus Gosling emacs posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Gosling emacs users. Notepad posts on 4chan are about half of the volume of emacs posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of Notepad. A recent article put GNU/emacs at about 80 percent of the emacs market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 GNU/emacs users. This is consistent with the number of Gosling emacs Usenet posts.

        All major surveys show that emacs has steadily declined in market share. emacs is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If emacs is to survive at all it will be among vim dilettante dabblers. emacs continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, emacs is dead.

    FACT: emacs is dying

Salvo (1)

vulcanrob (835984) | about a year ago | (#42725213)

Of course the emacs wiki is outdated and disorganized - it has to reflect its editor and its users. We here in the organized, efficient and beautiful vi community just sit back with a condescending chuckle. We're actually quite good at that and do it often. :wq

trOll (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42726139)

usersl. BSD/OSw Fuck The Baby

The problem here... (3, Interesting)

pongo000 (97357) | about a year ago | (#42727467)

...is the decision to go with MW. Seriously. Look at WikiEmacs [wikemacs.org], then at EmacsWiki [emacswiki.org]. The main problem with WikiEmacs (the MW version) is that you are forced to read the content in order to find what it is you need. Compare that to EmacsWiki: Links are clearly defined, not embedded in a lot of cruft, and describe exactly what it is that the link points to.

I've said this before: MW is overbloated and has a horrible UI, to the point where navigating most MW sites are excruciatingly painful. Anyone who thinks that MW is actually a user-friendly experience that promotes quick and easy navigation and drill-down is obviously a glutton for punishment and knows nothing about proper UI design.

Re:The problem here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42733681)

You know you're talking out of your ass, right?
The EmacsWiki style front page could have been reproduced exactly using MediaWiki. Why the author of WikiEmacs chose not to do that is beyond me, but you've got to recognise that what you are talking about is a content problem and not related to the wiki software.
I'm guessing the author of WikiEmacs went with MediaWiki because its syntax is slightly less bad, but on the whole Oddmuse and MediaWiki are very similar and the EmacsWiki front page could have been just as bad. As a matter of fact, it isn't, but that's despite Oddmuse, not because of it.

mod 04 (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42728999)

themseLves to be a be treated by your

Dude... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42734665)

Gotta hand it to you. You sure know how to eat crow! My hat is off to you. Wish you the best of luck, as you've learned a tough lesson the hard way.

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