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Does US Owe the World an Education At Its Expense?

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the only-the-parts-that-have-oil dept.

Education 689

An anonymous reader writes "'Right now, there are brilliant students from all over the world sitting in classrooms at our top universities,' President Obama explained to the nation Tuesday in his pitch for immigration reform. 'They are earning degrees in the fields of the future, like engineering and computer science...We are giving them the skills to figure that out, but then we are going to turn around and tell them to start the business and create those jobs in China, or India, or Mexico, or someplace else. That is not how you grow new industries in America. That is how you give new industries to our competitors. That is why we need comprehensive immigration reform." If the President truly fears that international students will use skills learned at U.S. colleges and universities to the detriment of the United States if they return home (isn't a rising tide supposed to lift all boats?) — an argument NYC Mayor Bloomberg advanced in 2011 ('we are investing millions of dollars [actually billions] to educate these students at our leading universities, and then giving the economic dividends back to our competitors – for free') — then wouldn't another option be not providing them with the skills in the first place?"

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We have the same... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742271)

in France.
They come, study, get a diploma...
And go away :)

For all that time, free university, free medical expenses...

F*ck socialism, it killed my country.

Re:We have the same... (4, Insightful)

HuguesT (84078) | about a year ago | (#42742407)

Meanwhile, they learn the local language and culture. They are more likely to do business with you. They are more likely to buy your products because they know them. International students are often more motivated to study, lifting the general class level.

Re:We have the same... (4, Insightful)

Psyborgue (699890) | about a year ago | (#42742511)

This all depends on whether they assimilate or not. Some might very well be internally hostile towards their host country, or at least unwilling to adopt compatible values. In such cases, in a way it's even worse if they stay. This is most not often the case in the US, however. I'd wager most who gain an education here want to stay here and contribute. They should be allowed to.

Re:We have the same... (3, Insightful)

cayenne8 (626475) | about a year ago | (#42742795)

Hey, all I know is if we had limited the foreigners coming into college when I was there....I might have had a fighting chance to get a physics lab instructor (grad student) that I could have understood when he spoke.

I was so frustrated, I mean physics to me was hard enough to try to grasp and learn...but having to try to translate what the teacher was saying made it doubly difficult.

I had to drop and retake a couple of times before I got a grad student who was teaching the class that didn't have an accent so thick that you could ice skate on it.

Re:We have the same... (1)

icebike (68054) | about a year ago | (#42742655)

Meanwhile, they learn the local language and culture. They are more likely to do business with you. They are more likely to buy your products because they know them. International students are often more motivated to study, lifting the general class level.

If they do in fact go home, (highly questionable), they more likely start selling stuff into your country, taking jobs away from locals. Buying stuff from France, (or wherever they were educated is usually not economically possible.

Re:We have the same... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742707)

They're stealing yer jerbs!

Re:We have the same... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742437)

You're confused. Sarkozy killed it.

Re:We have the same... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742805)

No fuck you, I would stay here if I could and integrate. It is your damn laws that stop me from doing so.

racist racist racist (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742275)

Racist! Racist!

Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (5, Insightful)

sco08y (615665) | about a year ago | (#42742277)

Oh, wait, we do.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (4, Insightful)

morcego (260031) | about a year ago | (#42742317)

Or make it attractive (and possible) for them to stay in the USA.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742487)

There is nothing atractive about the us

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742647)

Tell that to the brilliant students from all over the world sitting in our classrooms. I guess you didn't get into Harvard, so you're a little bitter, huh?

I could ask if the Community College in my town accepts foreign enrollments - I'm sure they'd be happy to work something out with you.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (0)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | about a year ago | (#42742675)

There is nothing atractive about the us

If you believe that, then you have never seen the "Jenna" channel.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742543)

Or make it attractive (and possible) for them to stay in the USA.

Concerned US citizen here with a question for you: why would we want to do that?

Just askin'.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (3, Insightful)

rnturn (11092) | about a year ago | (#42742757)

What would they do here? It's not like the education they've received is appreciated by American businesses. I just saw an ad for an IT internship that required a Bachelor's degree (Master's degree preferred!). Not working toward the degree... actually had the degree. (My favorite example is the car rental agency that insisted on a four-year degree as a requirement to work the counter at the local agency; I'll bet those grads were glad they busted their tail in college for that plum job.) American corporations are seriously delusional nowadays.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (4, Insightful)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about a year ago | (#42742807)

Not delusional - they just have the advantage. They can afford to ask for overqualified candidates, because there is a surplus of applicants at all qualification levels, scrambling over each other in the frantic rush to grab a job - any job at all, so long as it pays the rent.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (5, Interesting)

MrEricSir (398214) | about a year ago | (#42742359)

In fact we charge them outrageous tuitions in many cases. I went to a state university, and our department actively recruited students from India and China because they brought in the most cash.

For the same reason, there was no outreach to the community college just down the street.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742727)

Anyone who pays full price like this is silly. It would be cheaper for them to stay in the country a few years (maybe work some dead end minimum wage job) and then go in and pay resident tuition prices.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742385)

Raise the prices for non u.s. citizens to cut the number of students down.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (1)

rish87 (2460742) | about a year ago | (#42742483)

Not necessarily. For undergraduates, yes, international students pay a ton of tuition. For Graduate students in these STEM fields, most of them are not paying a dime for school (fellowships/assistantships). However, they are then providing cheap academic labor.

yep (5, Interesting)

mozumder (178398) | about a year ago | (#42742523)

International students are the ones that are paying full price for our universities, and they're the ones that keep our universities funded.

Universities court international students like it was nobody else's business.

A good part of the US GDP can be traced to actually selling higher-level education to international students. Consider that each international student brings in $50k+ to the US GDP, and multiply that by the number of students per year. It's easily a bigger industry than Hollywood.

I'm surprised that Government doesn't allow more sales of education to international students. Our economy could use that money.

Foreign money really does grow an economy. Consider also that in the 90's, the immigration door was wide open. Millions of people came to America. Now consider that each one needs to buy a house, at $100k+ each... you could pretty much explain the incredible GDP growth back in the 90's by our open border policy back then, and you saw how it hit our economy when we closed the borders after 9/11.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742629)

Yes, that is the essential bit missing from these "oh no we are doing the world a favor" types. We don't owe anything to anyone but they are not here on charity either and hence they don't owe us anything -- they don't fucking need to "assimilate".

They don't bother you, you don't bother them, live and let live and shove this "assimilate" crap up your collective asses where it belongs.

Re:Couldn't we just charge them tuition? (4, Interesting)

clong83 (1468431) | about a year ago | (#42742787)

For undergraduate degrees, yes, we do. But the main point is for advanced degrees in STEM. For graduate students, yes, tuition is still charged. The university gets paid whether you are international or not. The question is: Who pays?

It may surprise you that most STEM graduate students don't pay for their own tuition. In fact, most get paid out of some grant money somewhere. So, in effect, the American Heart Association, or the National Institutes of Health, or the National Science Foundation, etc, etc, will pay a professor at a university to study a problem. The professor then hires a graduate student to work on said problem. The professor takes the grant money and pays the student's tuition and a small salary. So, in effect, US organizations and taxpayer dollars fund an overwhelming amount of international students. This is fine, the professors, universities, and various agencies want to attract the best talent, and it's a worldwide marketplace.

Now, the real kicker is that after they graduate with a masters or doctorate, we make it difficult for them to stay here if they want. There should be an easy path in place for recipients of advanced degrees at US universities to stay here if they want. There's not. An awful lot of them are sent back home against their will. So I ask you: What is the point of bringing someone to this country, funding their education, and then demaning that they return home?

My View (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742279)

For every immigrant that comes over here, we send the "donor" country back one of our citizens. We get an engineer, and they get a TV talk show host or a Senator. Seems like a good trade to me.

-- MyLongNickName

Re:My View (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742815)

For every immigrant that comes over here, we send the "donor" country back one of our citizens. We get an engineer, and they get a TV talk show host or a Senator. Seems like a good trade to me.

-- MyLongNickName

No, the point is that they're not immigrating here, they're just visiting long enough to get the degree, then going back home. So we'd be getting all those talk show hosts and Senators BACK when they're done, and they'd have all these new stories about foreign lands to make bad jokes about. They'd come back WORSE! You fool!

Judging By the Title (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742281)

Yes and here's a freebie

Does the US Owe the World an Education At Its Expense?

Re:Judging By the Title (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about a year ago | (#42742541)

Not to mention that it should be "Does the USA owe the world an education at its expense?". Otherwise it's being read as "Does the us" as in "Does the we".

I've never understood why english titles capitalize every word either.

Re:Judging By the Title (1)

Antipater (2053064) | about a year ago | (#42742671)

I've never understood why english titles capitalize every word either.

Well, not every word. [xkcd.com]

Re:Judging By the Title (1)

icebike (68054) | about a year ago | (#42742747)

Yes and here's a freebie

Does the US Owe the World an Education At Its Expense?

Actually, Betteridge [wikipedia.org] suggests the answer is automatically NO.

Education for free? I think not (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742293)

I think paying in the order of $10k dollars a year in tuition, then additional injections of cash to the local economy in housing and sustenance hardly counts as free...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CollegeTuitionsUsCanada1940to2000.png

Re:Education for free? I think not (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742495)

The context of these remarks is immigration reform. I think the point is, "if they come here for an education, we should focus on attracting those people so they STAY here, and contribute to the US economy." They come here, pay thousands of dollars in tuition, and then take all the valuable skills and knowledge they've acquired, and leave the US... which doesn't really help the US expand its economy - they're not starting companies here, paying taxes here, and creating jobs here.

US immigration policy is, first, last, and only, for the benefit of the US. No country knowingly adopts and keeps immigration policy that is actively harmful to its interests, and President Obama is suggesting that US policies are harmful to us, and so need to change.

As far as "a rising tide lifting all boats," when Reagan said essentially the same thing, it was called Supply Side Economics, and Trickle-Down economics, and "Voodoo Economics," and it was roundly dismissed as foolish bullshit. Since TFS uses the phrase... I'm curious what relationship it has to President Obama's proposed policy?

not providing them with the skills in the first .. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742299)

Do you have any idea how empty that would leave our campuses? (Not to mention our faculty offices ...)

BTW: I teach at University level.

Re:not providing them with the skills in the first (1)

casings (257363) | about a year ago | (#42742657)

Then maybe we should figure out why that is, and fix it, rather than continuing to import the droves of internationals who take university positions away from residents of this country.

Keeping internationals here for the sake of Academia is such a biased and stupid opinion to have. In engineering you are literally only relevant until people graduate. You should not be dictating policy for your sake alone.

If I can't get a job in Europe because they have to prove that there is no national qualified to do the job, then I don't see why our country should do the opposite.

Re:not providing them with the skills in the first (2)

kelemvor4 (1980226) | about a year ago | (#42742763)

Do you have any idea how empty that would leave our campuses? (Not to mention our faculty offices ...)

BTW: I teach at University level.

That is a nice thought - we can only hope it would play out that way. Currently kids either have to come from some serious wealth, have truly exceptional high school records, or be part of a minority group to get into most Universities. BTW: I have kids in high school and have been looking into it lately.

Hey, if it also emptied out faculty offices then it could help solve our unemployment problems a bit as well!

At whose expense? (2, Insightful)

kervin (64171) | about a year ago | (#42742313)

Just a cursory fact check should inform the "editors" of this article that international students are cash cows in many universities and actually keep many colleges open.

Ironically the burden is directly the other way around. International students help fund the programs that local residents benefit from.

Re:At whose expense? (1)

gstoddart (321705) | about a year ago | (#42742515)

Just a cursory fact check should inform the "editors" of this article that international students are cash cows in many universities and actually keep many colleges open.

Yeah, no kidding. My first thought is that the reason the US is investing billions in bringing in foreign students is because the tuition is lucrative.

Every university seeks out international students -- it's not like the government is paying for their education, they're all paying tuition.

On the contrary, those students have to buy housing, food, clothing ... and more than a few I knew when I was in school had parents of some means, so they often had cars and disposable income. And they payed several times more in tuition than any local did.

At my school, there was at least 15-20% foreign students, maybe more.

Something about this assertion sounds like it's been spun to make a point.

Re:At whose expense? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742519)

Just a cursory fact check should inform the "editors" of this article that international students are cash cows in many universities and actually keep many colleges open.

Just a cursory reading comprehension check should inform "kervin" that the article isn't about tuition, it's about how the immigration laws are hostile to keeping these educated students in the US as employees and employers so they can continue to contribute to our country rather than sending them home to build companies that contribute to some other country while competing against US companies.

Re:At whose expense? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742625)

Just a cursory fact check should inform the "editors" of this article that international students are cash cows in many universities and actually keep many colleges open.

Just a cursory reading comprehension check should inform "kervin" that the article isn't about tuition....

Just a cursory reading comprehension of the article should inform the AC that it isn't about Obama's speech, but about the question "Does US Owe the World an Education At Its Expense?"

No (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742321)

Wait... the end of the summary and the subject line have the opposite meaning... I see what you did there....

My guess (-1, Flamebait)

Sparticus789 (2625955) | about a year ago | (#42742327)

I estimate that the word "racist" will be used about 149 times throughout the comments to this post.
"socialist" will be used 204 times.
Any reference to the United States liberating another country will occur 9 times.
Any reference to above country not wanting to be liberated will occur 9 times.
And at least 28 Ron Paul supporters will show up to support US isolationism.

Re:My guess (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742561)

can i take the over on "socialist"? for $20

and ill take the under on ron paul supporters for $20 as well

Re:My guess (1)

ilsaloving (1534307) | about a year ago | (#42742569)

Bob, I'd like to bid.... *looks over* I'd like to bid... 205!

This should come as no surprise (1)

BlackTriangle (581416) | about a year ago | (#42742331)

"International Students" (no matter where you are, and no matter where the students are from) are a huge cash cow for Universities. Far from being 'free,' they tend to pay a small fortune .

Yes. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742339)

Yes.

The money would be better spent educating the hundreds of millions of people already here. We're barely in the top 20, now in terms of average intelligence.

How many people in your neighbourhood can tell you how to spell neighborhood?

So... let's tax it. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742341)

Why not place a tax on providing education to non-US citizens, whether residing international or domestic, and earmark that tax toward an appropriate program of creating scholarships earned by merit by US citizens. Just saying.

Yes. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742347)

Yes. A very stupid option, but, yes, it is another option.

Idiots (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742361)

"If the President truly fears that..."

He fears no such thing, the man is a serial liar and is speaking only that which he believes will advance his cause; allowing more illegals to enter the country and become Democrat voters, this is truly all they want.

Re:Idiots (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742397)

Libertarians do tend to be consistent....

Re:Idiots (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742423)

"If the President truly fears that..."

He fears no such thing, the man is a serial liar and is speaking only that which he believes will advance his cause; allowing more illegals to enter the country and become Democrat voters, this is truly all they want.

What do you mean 'become' Democrat voters? I was under the impression most of the illegals already voted. Requiring ID to cast a ballot would be racist, remember?

Re:Idiots (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742635)

wow, the subject heading here really matched the comments, Idiots indeed.

Fund US Students to create US Jobs! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742373)

How about funding school for kids in our own country who test high enough. My broke ass parents couldn't pay for school and now I have to sit and watch idiots go to college for bullshit degrees.

I could take an $80,000 loan and let sallie mae rape me for 10 years... No thanks.

Networking (4, Insightful)

Antipater (2053064) | about a year ago | (#42742389)

The best way to avoid a fight with someone is to be friends with them. The first step in becoming friends with someone is actually meeting them.

Competition between international businesses is much preferable to war between nations.

Keep them, stupid (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742401)

The idiot solution is "stop training them"

That approach only perpetuates the severe labor shortage for highly skilled workers.

The smart solution is "encourage them to stay once they graudate"

For example, provide a simple path to citizenship for US-educated graduates, at least in high-demand subject areas.

Another idea - since foreigners pay much more for tuition (you knew that, right?) offer them refunds on some or all of the cost differential, payable as a small annuity over several years *after* they become a citizen.

The dumbest thing you could possibly do is the current state: train them, then kick them out. Yeah, bright.

Ok (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742415)

So you won't have those who chose to stay. Problems solved indeed!

Where do you get word "owe" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742417)

I didn't realize anybody was we saying owe international students anything.

In fact a lot of universities encourage international students because they owe full tuition.

New Low: Publishing Troll Submission (5, Insightful)

cmholm (69081) | about a year ago | (#42742419)

The way this submission is crafted invites a flame war, but ok, let's tackle it.

The submitter is evidently not aware that the vast majority of international students pay full freight and then some when they attend a US school. So, in the small picture, that's why US universities market to them, at a time when US students are having difficulty ponying up (for a variety of reasons), and state legislatures are cutting funding for the public institutions.

Bigger picture, yes, we're educating the competition, but we're also familiarizing the next world elite with US culture much as the British used to, making the world ever more US-centric. Given the economics for the schools, believe me, these students are going to come. So, we might as well make it easier for them to stay AFTER we've educated them, and thus allow them to add value to the US (culturally, economically) over the long run. If we create the brains, why encourage them drain back out into the world?

Re:New Low: Publishing Troll Submission (1)

Ichijo (607641) | about a year ago | (#42742627)

the vast majority of international students pay full freight and then some when they attend a US school.

They pay the "full" tuition, but are you sure their tuition isn't subsidized by taxpayers?

Re:New Low: Publishing Troll Submission (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742775)

Adding onto this, one industry that seems oddly thriving in America is higher education for people who aren't Americans. If those students weren't coming here and learning in our classrooms, would our classrooms be full enough to keep the school budgets healthy? Would there be there enough demand for higher education in America, if we were to only invite Americans? I suspect a number of schools are as grateful to immigrant students for their tuition, as the students are for their education.

Missing Benefits and the Bigger Picture (3, Insightful)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | about a year ago | (#42742421)

Two problems with this outlook:

1. It misses the benefits of having foreign students in the US, and having our own students exposes to students from other countries without needing to travel (so those who can't afford the time/money to travel still get more exposure). These benefits are far reaching. If we became a country with world class universities closed off to non citizens - we'd rapidly feel a diplomatic bite, and face more insidious harm long term.

2. A college education is more than just job training, and the perspective and growth it provides are only allocated to a small portion of the populace. We need to be talking about making college as universal, free, and affordable (for society) as high school. Then we'll see some real progress.

Re:Missing Benefits and the Bigger Picture (1)

schlachter (862210) | about a year ago | (#42742619)

At the graduate level...most of these international students get a full ride. At least that's how I've seen it done. Nothing wrong with that...let's just make sure we keep them here to make the USA stronger rather than give them the boot.

It goes both ways (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742425)

Loads of brilliant people who've gotten educated overseas move to the US. Their home countries have "paid" for their education. The US benefits, it goes both ways.

Lets change things around: When a brilliant highly educated person moves to the US - they US should have to pay that person's home country.

What silliness.

Subby's is a shortsighted view. (1)

doubledown00 (2767069) | about a year ago | (#42742435)

Obama is playing longball. By doing it Obama's way it's a two-fer because we would drain the smartest and most motivated from our competitors and then use them in *our* workforce.

Think of it in evolution terms as injecting new competitive genes into the genepool.

Re:Subby's is a shortsighted view. (0)

crypticedge (1335931) | about a year ago | (#42742761)

The American right wing doesn't understand the long game. It's all profits across the next 2 years or cut all funding to anything and everything to ensure those profits over the next two. Never mind that in 6 years it will mean bankruptcy, those 2 years of profit are there now!

Meanwhile, the smart business man, and smart leader will be saying "we can play the short game, like everyone else and we'll get x benefit and profit, or we can reinvest in us now, and it'll pay off in 10 years 1000x"

Blaming foreigners for our own problems (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742465)

They are earning degrees in the fields of the future, like engineering and computer science

If we're talking about degrees from competitive universities, then this indicates a failure of US students to compete for those opportunities.
If we're talking about degrees from non-competitive universities, who cares if they go back home?

You can't blame foreigners for our own failures in high school education and promoting a culture of learning.

Sending 'em home isn't all bad (5, Insightful)

Cyrano de Maniac (60961) | about a year ago | (#42742477)

The current situation does inure some benefits to the U.S., but in not easily measurable ways which is why they're not talked about all that much.

My observations when I was a college student was that international students would gain a perspective on the U.S., Americans, our life, and our culture which was different from what they expected when they first arrived. I assume when they went back home that this new perspective would cause them to evaluate their own local press and government statements about the U.S. in light of their first-hand experiences and knowledge. I had lab partners from Saudi Arabia, Ghana, and mainland China, all of whom I was able to talk with about perspectives and impressions of the U.S., and I have no doubt that each of them had a more nuanced and healthier view of the U.S. after having lived here.

If you want to stabilize relations with China and various Muslim areas of the world I think we'd be well served to invite far more of their students to study here so that when they go back home they can correct the thinking of their friends and family. Likewise the Americans who have a chance to study with them will realize that by and large "people are people", dispelling the simplistic "us versus them" mindset we seem to be afflicted with.

Grammatical Error (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742479)

Should be "Does WE owe the world an education?"

Re:Grammatical Error (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742715)

Should be "Does WE owe the world an education?"

Haha, no.

It depends on how you phrase the question (1)

guanxi (216397) | about a year ago | (#42742485)

If you ask it this way: "Does US Owe the World an Education At Its Expense?"

No.

Perhaps there are other ways of looking at it ...

Illegal pandering -bs (1)

sdinfoserv (1793266) | about a year ago | (#42742499)

Jobs are created in foreign countries because 1) THEY ARE CHEAPER!! Anyone remember when HP (under carly fiorina) fired 30,000 programmers who made an average of $75K per year and outsourced to India at $400 / month! Do the math! 2) Intellectual Property - China respects no IP laws. They take, steal, replicate and sell back to us and we look the other way. also the parasitic nature of copyright trolls in the US is killing business innovation. 3) Environmental Laws - The US doesn't have or tolerate people bathing and washing clothes in rivers with decomposing dead bodies floating as a common occurrence, nor do we have community outhouses hanging over these public waterways like India. China is seeing a spike in illness because of large portions of the country have become toxic. We have laws that make manufacturing more expensive by not polluting. 4) Health Care - the rest of the WORLD has state health care. In the US companies flip the bill for a bloated, inefficient and horrible system. One that rates near the bottom of the industrial world and grows at 17% annually in cost. Bottom line is it's not a talent shortage or education shortage. The above listed items create an unfair playing field that should - SHOULD - be balanced with tariffs. Talking about amnesty or HB1’s will NOT solve the problems. .

Re:Illegal pandering -bs (1)

Kittenman (971447) | about a year ago | (#42742659)

Kinda of a rant but in part I agree. Obama seemed to overlook the outsourcing as well. If graduates do stay in the States, and then become CEOs (eventually...) then market dictates will suggest that they 'rightshore' the jobs off to China/India/Egypt.

Maybe trading prices could factor in the floating bodies in the streams, worker safety, human rights, pollution levels... but if it doesn't have to, then it won't. And it doesn't have to.

As the hamburger jockey said the buddhist who asked for his change, change must come from within. If the Chinese population want their industry to stop polluting, it's up to them to force the issue. And good luck to them with that.

Re:Illegal pandering -bs (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742813)

I'd rather have college educated foreigners become citizens than random dudes that snuck in by fraudulent means. Besides they already pay a much higher tuition to attend our universities. They keep some of our schools afloat. I hope they keep their money and their motivation here in the USA. Though there is some benefit to these intelligent people having been exposed to our culture flying themselves home and telling everyone how good the USA is. We should be happy their here.

Now if we could only get more of our smart kids into college despite the (lower than foreign but still) high tuition costs.

If you want to go that way... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742513)

If you want to go the "does $country owe the world an education at its expense" way, certainly you would also want to discuss if foreign professors, scientists and technicians should be educating the US and giving US citizens the tools to start businesses elsewhere. After all, those professors, scientists and technicians happen to have been educated elsewhere, at other taxpayer's expenses, and now the US is benefitting from this brain drain caused by its (formerly) strong economy.

How about letting them start companies here? (1)

CptNerd (455084) | about a year ago | (#42742525)

Maybe instead of standing in the way of entrepreneurs (no matter where they're from) why not remove as many obstacles as possible from business start-ups? Maybe an "incentive visa" for starting a company and hiring Americans, with a fast track to citizenship?

Why does "immigration reform" always mean "making illegals legal by fiat"?

US US US Woot! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742529)

FUCK YEAH! US #1-o motherfucker, fuck yeah fuck yeah fuck yeah fuck yeah fuck yeah! Were the most edjucated tops beat that you socialisst Europusies! Lol

Posted from my iPhone fuck yeah!

I hate these kind of arguments (1)

fredmosby (545378) | about a year ago | (#42742551)

If the President truly fears that international students will use skills learned at U.S. colleges and universities to the detriment of the United States if they return home ... then wouldn't another option be not providing them with the skills in the first place?

It is if you think less education and less freedom in the world is a good thing.

I think this is the wrong question (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742555)

Why wouldn't we want to fill our country (speaking as an American) and thus surround ourselves with smart and motivated people? Would we not all be better off? I feel like there's a degree of protectionism inherent in the question, which is fine (who really wants to compete with smart and motivated people?), but probably a bad idea as far as raising the standard of living is concerned.

There's a separate argument somewhere in there about the growing wealth disparity in America not translating into a rising standard of living for everyone, but that's a different fight...

Sorta related to this point, though, is: why assume that these people *want* to stay? Don't they have the option of returning to their home countries if they so choose? Wouldn't retaining them also prompt the USA to try and become a more attractive place to live in general? If they're worth keeping here, aren't they that much more valuable to their home countries?

Keeping and retaining smart, motivated people means that the country as a whole gets better, for everybody. We should strive to do this and welcome people who want to be a part of making this happen.

C

decline of the american empire (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742559)

Wow, you "true" american became so fat, lazy and stupid that you have to rely on immigration to get education and create jobs. We are truly assisting to the decline of the american empire.

Wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742571)

'They are earning degrees in the fields of the future, like engineering and computer science...We are giving them the skills to figure that out, but then we are going to turn around and tell them to start the business and create those jobs in China, or India, or Mexico, or someplace else. That is not how you grow new industries in America. That is how you give new industries to our competitors.

My apologies, Republicans.

This man is completely clueless .

Easier paths to citizenship isn't going to make these students stay in the US when they have no intention of doing so, and taking in wheelbarrows full of money from foreign students in exchange for education isn't stopping any American from getting a degree.

Dear Obama: If you want to drive American business, start looking at the insanity of taxes (small and mid-sized businesses get crushed while megacorps who can offshore and have foreign subsidiaries loophole themselves out of the situation) and the cost of our education system itself (which has nothing to do with foreigners).

out competitive advantage... (2)

schlachter (862210) | about a year ago | (#42742573)

It's our competitive advantage that the best and brightest young people from all over the world want to come to the USA to study. It helps us to brain drain the rest of the world for our own benefit. We should do more to keep these people in the USA when they graduate. Most want to stay. Even in cases where they do go back to their own countries, we gain soft diplomacy by exporting our way of life to other parts of the world.

retardation gives me a headache (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742579)

and you people claimed bush was dumb... sheesh.

Giving? (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about a year ago | (#42742585)

They are earning degrees in the fields of the future, like engineering and computer science...We are giving them the skills to figure that out, ...

Mayor Bloomberg advanced in 2011 ('we are investing millions of dollars [actually billions] to educate these students at our leading universities, ...

Giving? Seems like they're paying us, investing in our universities, to study and earn their education. They pay for a service/product US universities are providing. Isn't that how Capitalism works? Sure, we could provide them access to our educational system, but who's going to pay the schools then?

Re:Giving? (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about a year ago | (#42742631)

Sure, we could provide them access to our educational system, but who's going to pay the schools then?

[ Damn it! ] Or, we could deny them access.
[ Sorry, I learned to type at US school... :-)

AMERICA RULZ (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742589)

That title smacks of American dick waving. As usual.

Owe? What are you talking about? Smarter candidates are coming and taking the positions of American students fairly, and then taking their FAIRLY WON education and leaving.

What's the problem?

US Citizens too dumb? Hire a non-US citizen! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742607)

Seems like everyone is implying that US Citizens are too dump to do STEM so we have to train non-US citizens to do the work? I don't see alot of talk of helping US Citizens in getting a STEM degree (financially or otherwise). All I keep hearing is that somehow US Citizens are generally to lazy or dumb so they have to go somewhere else to get smart people. I'm a Ph.D student in a CS program where over half of my fellow grad students are non-US citizens. I'm doing well in the program but feel like I'm going to be looked on by future employers as too dumb because of my citizenship. Also, unlike many non-US citizens who get scholarships, I can only get more loans (fellowships and scholarships being too hard to obtain) and a Teaching Assistantship which eats into my study/research time. I'm staring at possibility of being saddled with over $100,000 in loans to pay off and not particularly liking it. It's too bad no one interested in advocating for helping out US citizens getting STEM degrees.

One other Option (1)

strangeattraction (1058568) | about a year ago | (#42742609)

When they have no future in their native countries due to lack of education, they can turn their skills to violence, criminal activity and terrorism. We can then spend the billions used to educate and spread "OUR CORE" values peacefully to other countries on defense contractors. Fly drones and blow them up them up at home. Thus our economy grows and we keep our values right where they belong, here is the good ol US. Makes sense to me and very Progressive. BHO is making me ashamed I voted him.

Denying education is anti-nerd (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742637)

Denying talented people access to education and knowledge is just about as anti-nerd, anti-tech, and anti-OSS a view as I can imagine. How can anyone suggest that with a clear conscience?

Hey, Slashdot, that old saw about the *IAA needing to adapt or die? It applies to everybody, even the IT and computer industries.

(CAPTCHA: sellout. How appropriate.)

Smelly (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742651)

I farted

Misconception about foreign students (1)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | about a year ago | (#42742661)

At least from my observations, most people think the guys going to college in the states from overseas came here on a raft. In fact, all of the foreign students I met were from well-off to outlandishly rich families (3 Saudis I met of a group of maybe 10). The poor foreigners are the guys doing the lowest-rung work in our economy while the middle class guys are those small shop or restaurant owners. I'd say at least 95% of the foreign students I've met meet my description.

Check the cost of international tuition (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742665)

As someone who has experience paying the international tuition to a US college, I can only say that whoever wrote this has no clue whatsoever. The income from international students is a huge source of revenue for many schools, especially now that state money is increasingly tight. Insinuating that we are giving them a free ride at the expense of US taxpayers is blatantly dishonest. How did this drivel make it past the editors?

over 40% (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742691)

over 40% of ceo in the US are of foreign origins, so good luck COMPLETELY DESTROYING what's left of a economy..
the thing is that most American's aren't even interested in the skillset those migration students are interested in, and most americans are incapable of starting such degrees simply because they lack the math skills...

if you want to reform you should reform the lower-education to include the same kind of math skills kids in russia/china/japan get...
YOUR LOWER SCHOOLS SUCK!!! and are puking out worker duds in a world where there are no industrial jobs left..

Can't do it, universities will go bankrupt (1)

fincan (989293) | about a year ago | (#42742693)

Foreign students pay at least twice the amount of what US, in-state students pay. Also, if you just take a look at any Masters or PHD programs, you will see that they are full of non-US citizens, so in a hypothetical foreigner ban, these programs won't be able to survive with only American students. There are also other advantages such as expanding US culture into other countries/cultures, exposing US students to other cultures, etc. So in other words, US is not giving free higher education to anyone, don't worry.

Balance (2)

vlm (69642) | about a year ago | (#42742697)

There is a balance. We feel free to bomb anywhere on the world, its only fair we provide free .edu anywhere on the world. It balances out, sorta kinda not really.

It is cheaper than invading other countries (1)

miroku000 (2791465) | about a year ago | (#42742703)

If you want to solve the "war on terror" the best way to do it is get as many leaders of extremist countries to chill out and have less animosity towards the U.S. The easiest way to do that is to bring them over to the U.S. when they are 18 or so and introduce them to college life then send them back to their home countries and hope they can influence others.

No such thing as credible free education... (2)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about a year ago | (#42742711)

then wouldn't another option be not providing them with the skills in the first place?"

Spoken like an american who has no clue how good he has it, which is saying a lot given how terrible US education is.

In India, or China or the middle east, assuming the program you want exists there are far more qualified applicants than there are places. So that's the first hurdle. Those spots may be decided by bribes, clan, political connections, or gender. And not 'oh they bias admission to black slightly' I mean 'they don't let you in if you're a woman' kind of bias.

Once you're there you have a problem. All of those political connections, bribes, clan loyalties etc. determine who gets the test questions in advance, and who doesn't. The US system, for all of its faults is relatively honest. If you get a 70% on an assignment then you can be reasonably sure that the identical assignment submitted by someone else should have gotten about 70%. And not 100% for being in the right clan, or 0 for not paying the right bribe to the right person today.

You can't just 'give people skills'. Skills come from practice, honest evaluation and actually being taught something related to the skills you are trying to learn. Those things are work, sometimes hard work, and they cost money. Which is why some places regularly charge a huge amount of money for foreign tuition. You aren't going to become a good programmer by watching youtube videos, and you have no way to prove you know how to program if no one will honestly asses your work. That's why the very best and brightest from a lot of places get sent away: because even their own governments don't trust their own education system.

Do something even better (1)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#42742739)

The problem is not about preparing brillant foreign students. Is not preparing brillant local ones because they can't pay for education, or prefer not to risk owing money for the rest of their lives getting it. Or even worse, preparing dumb, or not motivated enough because they have already their economic life ensured.

Worse than using it in someone brillant from some other place (you probably are enjoying something designed or invented at least in part by someone from other country), is giving it to just a few. Give it for free, if you want just to local students, but in both cases that is not wasting money, is investing it, even if the person go somewhere else.

Anyway, there is no future in education, at least in most constructive areas. Working in the financial or legal sectors is the sure way to be in the top 5-10%.

Oh God NO!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742767)

The world does not need more religious training.

umm (4, Insightful)

buddyglass (925859) | about a year ago | (#42742773)

Hosting top foreign students is about as close to "win/win" as you get, depending on how it's managed. They pay tuition. They do research. They spend money on basic necessities while here (rent, food, etc.). Sometimes, if we're lucky, they stay here after graduating and become citizens. Highly paid citizens who are likely to contribute more in tax revenue and economic activity than they consume in govt. services. That is to say, the exact type of citizen we want to attract.

Someone with a similar opinion:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/10/09/the-20-billion-export-industry-that-the-government-is-holding-back/ [forbes.com]

No (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42742779)

We don't owe the world a damned thing. If anything they owe US for keeping them safe ( at least until this prick got in office ).

Tuition does not cover infrastructure & logist (1)

aristotle-dude (626586) | about a year ago | (#42742799)

To say that international students pay more tuition and therefor pay their own way is overly simplistic as all of the grounds, buildings and other infrastructure were paid not only by tuition but by donations and state/federal funding at some point.
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