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Xbox 720 Could Require Always-On Connection, Lock Out Used Games

samzenpus posted about a year and a half ago | from the through-the-grapevine dept.

Microsoft 592

MojoKid writes "Sony's next-generation PS4 unveil is just two weeks away, which means leaks concerning both it and Microsoft's next-generation Xbox Durango (sometimes referred to as the Xbox 720), are at an all-time high as well. Rumors continue to swirl that the next iteration of Xbox will lock out used games entirely and require a constant Internet connection. New games would come with a one-time activation code to play. Use the code, and the game is locked to the particular console or Xbox Live account it's loaded on. Physical games will still be sold (the Durango reportedly supports 50GB Blu-ray Discs), but the used game market? Kiboshed. If this is true, it's an ugly move on Microsoft's part. Not only does it annihilate the right of first sale, it'll eviscerate any game store or business that depends on video game rentals for revenue."

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Always on = !on (5, Insightful)

ernest.cunningham (972490) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818023)

Always on always turns me off.

The main problem I see with this is the ability to lend games to friends, or have friends lend games to me! This is what hooked me in with COD 4 and the reason I purchased an Xbox. My mate lent me his copy for a day and boom I was hooked.

That wont be happening again I guess....

Re:Always on = !on (3, Insightful)

Kokuyo (549451) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818031)

How was it the reason you bought the console? If he lent you the game without having the console, how on earth did you play it?

Re:Always on = !on (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818161)

Maybe his mate left his console at GPs house - I've done that myself numerous times.

You sir are a pedant.

Re:Always on = !on (4, Insightful)

N1AK (864906) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818203)

If he left the console and the game then the friend could play using his mates xbox live account thus making GPs post a valid point. You sir are wrong.

Re:Always on = !on (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818337)

The fact that he temporarily left it at someone's house doesn't mean he gave it to him permanently.

Re:Always on = !on (4, Informative)

ernest.cunningham (972490) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818303)

I had a mate staying at my house with an Xbox. I used this to play COD 4 and decided to buy my own xbox and COD 4 game.

Re:Always on = !on (2)

luther349 (645380) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818071)

in a time where game company's are going bankrupt making a console like that would flop sony tried the with psp go kinda a test bed for such a model and watched it fail.

Maybe it is the economy, but not how you think. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818481)

Sony's failure with the PSPgo is partly because they had to compete with their own more fully-featured product and partly because they didn't mandate day-and-date digital releases of retail titles.

Whether doing that worked with the Vita is impossible to tell, since that platform's sales numbers are pretty much crushed under its high price (including separate overpriced memory card) and having to compete with mobile gaming (such as it is), and pulling game sales numbers is a futile exercise anyway, since digital sales aren't usually reported, NPD's given the public the finger, and VGchartz's methodology is a disaster.

Looking at how digital sales on retail PSPs did might be better, but that may not be feasible.

And before you go on with "blah blah piracy": The DS was as wide-open as the PSP was. Developers who weren't fans of good-faith efforts used that as an excuse to develop on just the DS, or more likely have fled to mobile or folded. The 3DS is also suffering from the end of the cash-in, but is sort of weathering it because Nintendo. Pick another argument.

CAPTCHA: euphoria

Re:Always on = !on (1)

asmkm22 (1902712) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818165)

I think the idea is that if you want to try a new game, they would rather you just download the demo or whatever instead of borrowing disks. It's becoming increasingly common to get demo access for all kinds of new releases.

So, on paper, I agree with your statement. I just don't think it's as big a deal as people think. Now the guys in the middle of nowhere with crappy internet connections have something to complain about, but their beef should be with their ISP anyway.

Re:Always on = !on (4, Insightful)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818347)

I think their beef should be with DRM. Demos only allow you play up to a certain point.

Re:Always on = !on (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818205)

It's worse than that, because of online activation for multiplayer me and my girlfriend can't both play online with games that use this technique. They expect two people in the same household to buy two copies of the game to both be able to play online even if one of the discs isn't even in use at the time because activation gets tied to your account and we have separate accounts so we can play different things at the same time on each console.

Re:Always on = !on (2, Interesting)

wesleyjconnor (1955870) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818359)

I would imagine this is part of a service where you download your games instead of purchasing discs, so it would want to check in to make sure you haven't tampered with the software.
It would be unrealistic and unnecessary to have a constant internet connection the entire time you are using the device.
Connecting back every day or week is not going to break the lolz

Also who are these people without reliable internet? I used to live in AUSTRALIA, the asshole of the world and even there we had 100mbit cable

Re:Always on = !on (5, Funny)

warrigal (780670) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818439)

I used to live in AUSTRALIA, and even there we had 100mbit cable
I'd like to know where, cobber.
We're on fibre here in 3076-land and seldom see 10MBs. Usually less because of chronic under-provisioning, even when we pay for 100.

the asshole of the world
Just passing through, eh?

Re:Always on = !on (3, Insightful)

flyneye (84093) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818401)

I picture Microsoft stuck with a warehouse full of them until the laughing from their peers and loss of profits force them to change their suckass firmware.
Par for the course for Microshit. Misguided leadership as per usual.

Well... (5, Insightful)

Kokuyo (549451) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818025)

No new console for me then *shrugs*

Re:Well... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818425)

Yep.

I already dropped out of modern console gaming due to DLC bullshit. This just sounds like suicide on their part to me.

Give me PCs and emulators and go fuck yourself until you can provide a good product again, game companies.

Re:Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818543)

Will be the same for me. I will never buy a game that requires internet to install or play single player side of the game. As a result I've had to forgo a lot of games that sounded like fun. At least I put my money where my mouth is instead of bitching about it and still paying like most people do. Seriously people that's the only vote you get with a product, whether you buy it or not.

And for those with a normal... (5, Interesting)

Zemran (3101) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818035)

... unreliable internet connection (most of the world) this will make it unusable.

Re:And for those with a normal... (-1, Troll)

crossmr (957846) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818181)

Where do you live that your connection is so "unreliable"?
The Congo?
Antarctica?
The moon?
If the answer is any of these, then my guess is that you have other things to focus your attention on than an Xbox..if the answer is not one of these then you should be focusing your attention on the company you pay money to and/or slapping yourself for getting service with them.

Re:And for those with a normal... (5, Interesting)

damnbunni (1215350) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818263)

I live in a nation that, despite giving billions to the telecom industry, doesn't even have reliable dialup in every town.

I'm in a town about five miles outside a city of 200,000 people, and the best I can get is 3G cellular. The speed on it is actually okay, but it's certainly not reliable, and it drops out fairly regularly.

I'm half a mile from a school, so it's not like I'm way out in the boonies.

(Technically yes, I could get service with another company. There's satellite, with its dropouts and terrible ping times, there's dialup at 28.8 at best due to the quality of the copper, there's ISDN at $700 per b-channel, or a T1 at $2619.20 per month.)

But then, that's how things are in these United States of America.

Re:And for those with a normal... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818421)

I live in a different country.

Here I have a 1 Gigabit fiber connection to the internet. Never goes down. When they installed it 4 years ago I had a lot of trouble finding a low cost router that would support 1Gig on the WAN side. Eventually the RTX1200 came out. The internet connection costs me about US$60 a month. While I dont really get 1Gig, I do get huge local bandwidth. Definitely 100M+.

I live in Tokyo, Japan, though I am not Japanese. If you believed the press, you'd think Japan is a complete basket case.
But sometimes Government intervention in the market does deliver a better result.

Re:And for those with a normal... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818457)

How the hell does that happen?

I'm really curious because my parents live on a farm that's 13 miles from the nearest town, which only has a population of 600, have internet that's good enough (5 Mb down) to stream Netflix. The nearest city of at least 200,000 is hours away.

What the fuck is wrong with your state/county/whatever that is preventing you from getting decent internet when my parents who live in the middle of nowhere are capable of getting internet service that I would have never imagined that they would be capable of getting.

But to get back on point, I honestly can't see Microsoft doing this or their sales would tank horribly. Someone somewhere has to be aware of the backlash that even the rumor of this is generating and telling the powers that be that there's no way this kind of shit would fly.

Re:And for those with a normal... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818473)

You should start a rural internet co-op. Get T1 service and distribute it to yourself and neighbours. It's an easy sell if things are as bad as you say. I'm actually Canadian (no, I didn't spell neighbour wrong), but it seems to me that's the American way. Coming together and changing things yourself, not bitching about them from your armchair.

Re:And for those with a normal... (1)

spongman (182339) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818483)

Screw the Internet. They haven't worked out trains yet...

Re:And for those with a normal... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818319)

You must be new to this world...

Re:And for those with a normal... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818455)

> you should be focusing your attention on the company you pay money to and/or slapping yourself for getting service with them.

In France, there is a monopoly on physical land lines that gives the DSL connection. If it's unreliable (like in a small town), you're SOL.

Re:And for those with a normal... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818497)

Yes, I will, thanks. I'm with Sky for the record and I've been trying for the last 4 weeks to get them to fix my suddenly-intermittent internet connection that was fine for the last year. I don't even want to say how many hours I've spent on the phone with these idiots. Still no joy. So I'm going to ditch them and get BT Infinity (FTTC) and save money overall. Once I get paid.

Meanwhile, you're telling me I can't play my new console because it's more important to prevent 2nd-hand sales?

Don't pretend this isn't an issue. It is.

Re:And for those with a normal... (0)

asmkm22 (1902712) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818195)

I have a hard time believing that "most of the world" has an unreliable internet connection. At least not the markets relevant to this discussion (console gaming markets).

But sure, I guess it might be death blow for that lucrative gaming market in Uganda...

Re:And for those with a normal... (4, Insightful)

smallfries (601545) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818397)

On slashdot "most of the world" is a synonym for America. It's like, in the faqs and stuff dude.

Re:And for those with a normal... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818517)

Semantics. OP might have worded it better, but the point isn't that you're affected if you have an unreliable internet connection. The point is you're affected if you have anything less than a 100% perfectly reliable internet connection. Take that into account and what's your estimate now of how many people are affected? Unless you live in a Wendy House in a CoLo I suspect your internet fails, from time to time.

Re:And for those with a normal... (1)

equex (747231) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818471)

This is outrageous. this cant be true. Retail sales people are going to get killed over this. Personally I have almost stopped buying games due to DRM like Steam. I have 'the best' internet connection possible, and i still have network issues couple of times a month. nothing huge, but enough to kill an 'always on' feature. Sometimes the router just needs a restart, sometimes my ISP changes my IP, or restart their DNS service (seems like it at least), or firmware update the router. there are any number of reasons to lose a connection. And while my connection is ok most of the time, Steam and similar crap always has some issues as well. Their random outages + my random outages = too damn high frustration rate for a casual gamer. I have absolutely *ZERO TOLERANCE* for faulty products. (any product that does not work when i decide it should)

Burn them all at the stake! (5, Insightful)

Dahamma (304068) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818045)

We don't need proof, unsubstantiated blog entries will suffice!

Re:Burn them all at the stake! (2)

Dahamma (304068) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818067)

And when you RTFA(s) you see that most of the /. summary is just uncited cut and paste from one of the linked sites. Journalism at its finest!

Re:Burn them all at the stake! (3, Informative)

Sockatume (732728) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818545)

The original source for the story - not the third hand one provided here - is Edge magazine. While this seems far fetched, they don't tend to post hardware rumours unless well-substantiated. I don't think they've run a story like this since they got the scoop on the GBA SP a decade ago.

This is a move to stop online piracy. (-1, Troll)

LeAzzholeChef (2576267) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818053)

It's a DICK move, but it is a shove in the direction needed.. They can now start applying the same concept to movies. Locking them to specific boxes, no longer to be rented, copied, pirated. I know this is a violation of freedoms, but its a protection of copywrite. THIS IS A LESSER EVIL in my book

Re:This is a move to stop online piracy. (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818081)

I think it sounds just another good reason to wait till mods are available, maybe a fake MS server. or a reason to stick to pc.

Re:This is a move to stop online piracy. (4, Insightful)

l0ungeb0y (442022) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818101)

So what you're saying is you WANT to have to go out and replace ALL your DVDs, CD and Games every time you buy a new DVD Player or Console?
I can't even begin to describe the amount of utter stupidity you have posted here.

Dick move? Note even close.
Lesser Evil? My ass.

Re:This is a move to stop online piracy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818139)

I can't even begin to describe the amount of utter stupidity you have posted here.

I think he's either trolling or making fun of the absurd things that some copyright shills say. It is very, very doubtful that he's serious.

Re:This is a move to stop online piracy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818245)

So what you're saying is you WANT to have to go out and replace ALL your DVDs, CD and Games every time you buy a new DVD Player or Console?

While I'm not a fan of the idea regardless, if it's anything like Steam it'd be tied to your *account* not *console*, so no you would not re-buy your games if you got a new console.

Of course, this being rumors who the hell knows anyway.

Re:This is a move to stop online piracy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818449)

If it's locked to an Xbox Live account, it's not as bad as you think, and more like Steam.

I think it's all total bullshit myself and I'll never spend a penny on that shit, but I think you'll only need to rebuy when you move to a new console.. or maybe not even that if the next generation is backward compatible (probably not, because people like that and we can't have too many features that people LIKE).

Re:This is a move to stop online piracy. (5, Interesting)

Rakhar (2731433) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818493)

I have a locked XBox Live account with +half a year or so paid on it. Being a yearly subscription, I forgot to update it when I canceled my bank account (due to another bank that I dislike buying out my bank). Instead of cancelling my account, MS left it running for another 4 or 5 months, THEN closed and locked the account for nonpayment. I went out and bought a year prepaid card, entered it in my account. The next day I was locked out again. The response I got from MS? "We don't take time cards as payment for debt owed." I also couldn't get any prepaid credit cards to work with their system.

Their system was more than happy to eat the $50 subscription card and bring my account back into the positive, but still keep me from accessing my account. Customer service told me I was out of luck. My Live account has hundreds of dollars of DLC and games on it. I sold my XBox within a week and haven't looked back. I'm done with consoles.

Re:This is a move to stop online piracy. (2)

c0lo (1497653) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818167)

Poe's law [wikipedia.org] - on /. nobody see your smile (or grin).

Slashdots Moderation System (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818199)

It's a DICK move, but it is a shove in the direction needed.. They can now start applying the same concept to movies. Locking them to specific boxes, no longer to be rented, copied, pirated.

I know this is a violation of freedoms, but its a protection of copywrite.

THIS IS A LESSER EVIL in my book

The above poster is expressing an opinion that most of us (including myself) vehemently disagree with. If he's doing it deliberately just to get a reaction, he probably could be modded "Flamebait" or "Troll"; but the current score of zero also seems unfair to me. I disagree with him, but his post is definitely "interesting" and even perhaps "insightful" (according to the rules [slashdot.org] , "Insightful" means "An Insightful comment makes you think, or puts a new spin on a given story. Examples: an analogy you hadn't thought of, or a telling counterexample."). At the very least even if you don't think it's particularly insightful or interesting, you could select "underrated".

So, a couple of up-mods wouldn't hurt, even if you disagree with the guy like I do (and if it gets TOO high, the cleary "overrated" becomes the correct choice)

Can we please use the moderation system as it was intended?

Re:Slashdots Moderation System (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818317)

I just did. I actually agree with you and had already modded him up as insightful. Just because someone has a vehemently opposing opinion to the general consensus doesn't automatically make them a troll.

-Jaruzel

Re:Slashdots Moderation System (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818417)

The moderation system is worked exactly as intended, thank you very much.

Sounds like a good way (5, Insightful)

mailuefterl (140499) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818083)

to get themselves out of the console business again

Less piracy then? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818091)

Fair enough, but if it stuffs up my gaming experience then I'll be taking it back, my pc is pretty good.

If these rumors are true (2)

rolfwind (528248) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818093)

Valve's Steam Box may give these guys a run for the money.

Of course, these rumors may only exist because of Valve's entrance into the market.

Re:If these rumors are true (1)

ektoplasme (2783567) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818127)

Yeah... Except for the fact that Valve's Steam Box will most likely work the same way: you buy a game that is then tied to your Steam account and you can't resell it, just like now with Steam on desktop.

Re:If these rumors are true (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818201)

But if I buy 10 other computers, I can install steam on all those 10 computers. Then I can burn those computers in a fire, and install everything I own on 10 new computers. And steam will even sync your save files/settings across all your devices if you are so inclined. Plus, steam gives the developers the option of foregoing the drm, in which case the purchaser may fully access the files and do whatever with hem. If I have 2 x boxes (1 for each kid's room, maybe i move between two houses a lot, maybe my old one broke and I bought a new one because of the xbox 720 infamous purple hexaflexagon of death bug, etc...) according to this I need two copies of the game. And if I have a steam box, I can download my games and then install it in, say, a cabin in the woods or a tree house or something, while the xbox requires a constant internet connection even after I have the games installed. So yeah, they certainly seem the same. Admittedly, you can't resell steam games, but in exchange for that they actually provide a lot of benefit.

Re:If these rumors are true (5, Informative)

Sique (173459) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818229)

And then you run afoul the ruling of the European Court of Justice, that allows explicitely for resale, and requires the original seller to remove all hindrances for a resale should the current owner want to.
And don't come up with that "it's only licensed!" stuff, this doesn't fly in the E.U. It's either a sale (and all the usual conditions for a sale apply), or it's a rent (and then the usual conditions for a rent apply).
For reference [europa.eu]

Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right.

Re:If these rumors are true (1)

Sockatume (732728) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818547)

Ask Steam users how much of a difference that has made.

Re:If these rumors are true (2)

asmkm22 (1902712) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818177)

Steam games are already tied to an account, so I can't see how a Steam Box would be any kind of savior here...

Re:If these rumors are true (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818223)

Why? Steam has always had the worst DRM of almost any gaming framework out there.

If anything Steam will be worse as you'll not even be able to play games between systems with multiple people in a household and if their servers go down you wont be able to even start playing new games.

Hacktivism (1)

TemperedAlchemist (2045966) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818099)

Or until someone hacks it with custom firmware so it won't need an internet connection to play games.

Although that seems silly.

I think the worst part is that this may work as a business strategy. I wonder if it opens them up for a lawsuit, though.

Re:Hacktivism (2)

asmkm22 (1902712) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818147)

I can't imagine any legal grounds anyone would have for a lawsuit, in this instance. You can sell or trade or give away your games all you want, leaving the first sale doctrine intact. The fact that the game no longer works for the poor guy who bought it isn't Microsoft's problem since they aren't obligated to provide support for used products.

In reality, there will probably be a way to "unlock" a used game, by paying a fee through xBox live or whatever. It identifies a game disk is already tied to an account, and offers to change ownership for whatever they think is fair for the program (probably pretty close to current retail rather than something trivial like $10). There is built in accountability due to having account information from both the source and destination accounts, and they'll be able to gather a whole crap load of useful metrics about the used games market that they really don't have right now.

Re:Hacktivism (4, Informative)

Sique (173459) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818271)

I can't imagine any legal grounds anyone would have for a lawsuit, in this instance. You can sell or trade or give away your games all you want, leaving the first sale doctrine intact. The fact that the game no longer works for the poor guy who bought it isn't Microsoft's problem since they aren't obligated to provide support for used products.

It won't work in the E.U., given current rulings of the European Court of Justice. It explicitely ruled that making available a permanent copy of a software to a customer for a fee is a sale (independently of the name in the contract, just naming it "license" doesn't make a difference), and thus the First Sale Doctrin applies. The copyright holder is not allowed to oppose such a seal, and technical means to render a resold copy unusable will probably be seen as an opposition of the copyright holder to a sale -- thus making them illegal.
The ruling [europa.eu] goes even further:

Therefore the new acquirer of the user licence, such as a customer of UsedSoft, may, as a lawful acquirer of the corrected and updated copy of the computer program concerned, download that copy from the copyright holder’s website.

Re:Hacktivism (1)

fnj (64210) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818437)

Thank you EU for a beacon of light in this matter.

Re:Hacktivism (3, Informative)

deimtee (762122) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818299)

I can't imagine any legal grounds anyone would have for a lawsuit, in this instance. You can sell or trade or give away your games all you want, leaving the first sale doctrine intact. The fact that the game no longer works for the poor guy who bought it isn't Microsoft's problem since they aren't obligated to provide support for used products.

That won't fly in AU. Goods must be fit for purpose, and second-hand sales do not erase the manufacturers responsibility. A quick reading of the consumer guide seems to say you could buy it second hand and then demand a full refund from the manufaturer if it didn't work due to a manufacting defect. The interesting challange would be to get disabling DRM defined as a fault with the goods.
Link to the guide for those interested: http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/the_acl/downloads/consumer_guarantees_guide.rtf [consumerlaw.gov.au]

Re:Hacktivism (1)

fnj (64210) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818447)

As a citizen of a corrupt coporatocracy, hats off to Australia.

Re:Hacktivism (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818467)

In reality, there will probably be a way to "unlock" a used game, by paying a fee through xBox live or whatever.

Sure - original M$RP.

No surprise (1)

asmkm22 (1902712) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818107)

Everyone complains about changes like this, where games are tied to accounts that can't be resold or traded, but in the end, people will still keep buying the games and consoles. It's basically only going to cause problems for used game shops, like Game Stop. I'm sure they'll work out some kind of method with the publishers and/or manufacturers to sell used games with new activation codes or somethings.

Long story short, the used game market will continue to exist, although it will be a bit less lucrative than before for customers (not that it was ever that great a deal in the first place). The main difference is the manufacturers will see some kickback as a result, and they get to charge an extra fee or tax to the publishers for the feature, which publishers will actually love.

Re:No surprise (1)

Rakhar (2731433) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818523)

If this is true, I highly doubt that MS will work with stores like Gamestop for this. They simply have no reason to. Even if they do, the small local game stores have MUCH better prices on nearly any game, and they are going to be SOL in this matter either way simply because they aren't big companies.

Gamers in general deserve this.. they don't care.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818125)

about users freedom and thus we keep getting shafted.

I'd really like to see more people give a shit and stop buying games that are non-free (and by that I mean there are no sources available to users).

Even Linus is endorsing this insane system.

It makes me sick. Then again Linus never claimed to be a freedom loving fanatic.

I might sympathize with those who play games in that it is hard to resist although when you defend Microsoft/Apple and put down those who are pushing things forward I have no sympathy left.

Thanks, Microsoft (5, Insightful)

Leo Sasquatch (977162) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818129)

Just made the next few months so much easier, because all the hype, specs, leaks, teasers and general media d1ck-sucking can be safely ignored.

You've chosen to release a console that's less powerful than the PC I built 2 years ago, so heavily encrusted with DRM that it will get in the way of playing games I have purchased. Router bounces - say goodbye to your game session. ISP has problems - no games for you, you filthy thief.

Here's a little hint, MS - you are not the only game in town. There has never been such excellent choice in the games and console market. I can run MAME on my Raspberry Pi, or Skyrim at full shiniez on the PC. What do you have to offer that's so unique? Halo? No, that's not looking a bit tired at all. Halo 5? Wow, I wonder what you have to do in *that* game!? (hint: shoot aliens...)

My PC plays anything that needs heavy lifting - my 360, Dreamcast, N64, PS3, PS2 and Saturn all still work, and I have plenty games to tide me over your entire current console lifecycle. Really, what are you offering this time around to make up for all this shit?

Re:Thanks, Microsoft (1)

N1AK (864906) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818235)

so heavily encrusted with DRM that it will get in the way of playing games I have purchased.

I wouldn't be feeling so high and mighty in your position. PC gaming started the trend of restrictive DRM and is starting the trend of requiring always on internet (Sim City for example). Even Steam which is held us as the best there is when it comes to a basis for DRM systems, and generally pretty well defended on here, doesn't allow you to transfer ownership or 'lend' games.

If the DRM on the Xbox is put a one use code in when you buy a new copy and it is locked to your xbox live account then that DRM is no more onerous or complex than any PC DRM system around; it seems very ironic to attack the Xbox for potentially having what PCs have, or will have, while using PCs as the example of a better option.

Re:Thanks, Microsoft (4, Interesting)

slimjim8094 (941042) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818279)

People keep forgetting that the reason people like Steam is because they provide a service in exchange for you giving something up. If you buy your games with a Steam account, you get them integrated with social features, achievements, cloud saves and settings, automatic updates, and most importantly, brain-dead simple moving to new computers.

That's without all the "good faith" things people have come to expect from Valve like frequent deep sales, new platform support, etc.

Meanwhile, you can be damn sure your new Xbox game will be strictly less functional than before, not a trade off. The problem is the one-sidedness.

Re:Thanks, Microsoft (2)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818375)

People keep forgetting that the reason people like Steam is because they provide a service in exchange for you giving something up.

Why give up anything? They could easily get rid of the silly DRM and give people all the other features as well. You could choose whether or not the tie the game to Steam.

Re:Thanks, Microsoft (4, Interesting)

l0ungeb0y (442022) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818247)

Halo 5? Wow, I wonder what you have to do in *that* game!? (hint: shoot aliens...)

And what are they supposed to do? Race Penguins in go-carts? Grow things on their Farm and sell them at the Market? Save a Princess from an Ape?
Don't bag on a franchise for sticking to formula, it's what the audience wants.

I just bought DeadSpace 3 for my PS3 yesterday and love that it's essentially the same as 1 and 2 and hope to see a DeadSpace 5 and would expect it to be the same thing all over again as well. Because. It's. What. I. Want. To. Play.

Re:Thanks, Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818369)

pssst, you do realize they haven't actually released, or ANNOUNCED, anything yet!!?

a day with a packet sniffer and... (1)

technosaurus (1704630) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818131)

it will take about a day for a custom proxy server to spoof the connection, why do they waste their time?

Re:a day with a packet sniffer and... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818281)

The games send a random string and ask the server to sign it with their private key. If you can spoof that you wouldn't have time to play games.
I seriously doubt Microsoft will require Internet or block used as it would decimate there sales but if they do it will stand at least till the hardware is fully rooted.
More likely they will continue to slowly erode used with more and more of the game in single download DLC.

No matter... (4, Insightful)

Onuma (947856) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818149)

...only informed, conscious gamers will be dissuaded by this type of asshattery. CoD kids using their mom's credit card at the local GameStop will continue to purchase the regurgitated crap they've been playing for years.

The pool of gamers (and people in general) who actually give a shit is dwindling rapidly.

Re:No matter... (1)

Dekker3D (989692) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818295)

So when the reveal happens, and it turns out one or both of them do require always-on internet.. perhaps we should just kick up the same kind of mess that got SOPA kicked out of everything. That brings things into public opinion.

Though I doubt we'll have support from as many websites as we did back then.

This will get them sued in the EU (4, Interesting)

gweihir (88907) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818153)

Currently, STEAM is sued in Germany for not allowing re-selling of things bought on STEAM. This will likely be escalated. If MS thinks angering consumer protecion agencies in the EU is a good idea, they may find out that they are wrong.

Re:This will get them sued in the EU (1)

ADRA (37398) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818233)

And you believe that MS wouldn't Kowtow to these people why? Worse comes to worse, they leave resale on for country X, and publishers can choose (as they always have) if they want to allow sales of games in said country. Either the games industry or the country's lawmakers will blink and this non-issue will a bullet point in the history of video gaming, right between paying for online functionality and the death of video game physical media (aka precache).

Misunderstood Intentions (4, Informative)

l0ungeb0y (442022) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818197)

Neither Microsoft or Sony have any interest in eliminating rental companies like Gamefly or resellers like Gamestop. What they do want is what the Publishers want -- Increased Revenue. It's well known that the Publishers have put pressure on Sony and Microsoft to restrict game resales because they don't get a dime of profit from 2nd hand sales.

Yes, Sony and Microsoft will be tying unlock codes to game systems to prevent play from 2nd hand owners. But what they don't tell you is that they will allow 2nd hand owners to BUY an unlock code via the Playstation or XBox stores for either unlimited or fixed duration (rental) game play.

So the question is not whether you can play a pre-owned game, because you will be able to, but whether or not game rental companies and game retailers can remain profitable with the added cost of the unlock codes in the mix.

Gamestop and Gamefly will work with this new system to include activation codes for rentals and pre-owned with the sale to make the customers life easier. I know that I already get all sorts of PlayStation Store redemption codes from GameStop when I pre-order Games or buy added DLC at point of sale. So an unlock code should not be that big a deal, since all it really is is a redemption code anyway.

In the end, I suspect that not much will change other than it might cost a bit more to own that 2nd hand game.

Re:Misunderstood Intentions (5, Insightful)

MetricT (128876) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818495)

But that's just it. Publishers *do* get money from resale.

If I know I can pay $60 for a game when it first comes out, play it for a week or two and then sell it, I'll buy it opening day.

But since I can't resell it, I wait for that sucker to hit the bargain bin before I even consider it.

same as steam (0)

theone2030 (2757195) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818215)

as far as the "used games" , steam uses that system and i don't think they have fail so far nor they will !!! console gamers will have to adapt or start playing on a PC but wait... SAME PROBLEM THERE ....

Re:same as steam (2)

0111 1110 (518466) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818289)

console gamers will have to adapt or start playing on a PC but wait... SAME PROBLEM THERE ....

Citation needed. Only a small percentage of PC games have DRM that is even remotely this draconian. And very few of all the new great games coming out through kickstarter will have any DRM at all. In addition I can't think of a single PC game with DRM that remained uncracked for any significant length of time. So if one finds the DRM too restrictive cracks are just a short download away.

Re:same as steam (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818377)

When consoles have as deep sales as Steam then it will be the same. Name one AAA game that has been on sale for $5 on a console. When you can buy yourself and your friends a copy of a game for less than a single copy on a console, the game being locked to your steam account isn't as much of an issue. Valve has built up a metric shitton of good will with their users, MS and Sony have a long way to go to be the same as Steam.

my guess is (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818227)

that an always-on internet connection won't be *required* but that the next gen sony and microsoft consoles will support, and encourage, the practice of one-time-use serials that lock the purchase to an online account that does require the always-on internet connection; eliminating the resale, lending, or renting of titles sold exclusively in that manner. by making it a 'choice', the console makers can then point the finger and blame the game publishers when the shit hits the fan.

lending, renting, or reselling games is over. even if a lawsuit ruled against the console manufacturers and publishers, the publishers would simply design the games to require an always on connection.. an example of which is about to hit the market: the next sim city game will run some of its simulations on ea-hosted servers, thus requiring an always-on connection even in single player mode, and not on a gamer's local pc.

Dear Microsoft (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818237)

Please read this carefully:
Always-on internet and/or unable to resell or buy second hand games = no deal

I hope I'm clear.
A long-time XBox 360 player

special needs (-1, Troll)

alliemccarthy (2802363) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818239)

http://specialneedsplanning.net/services/ [specialneedsplanning.net] Special Needs Services – We are offering financial help for special needs children via the instruments of government benefit planning, insurance needs analysis planning, and comprehensive financial life term plans. Consult now.

"it'll eviscerate any game store or business ..." (1)

fleeped (1945926) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818241)

The only thing that will eviscarate is their profits from Xbox 720 sales.

Locked to the console (1)

Wonda (457426) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818257)

Great move, so when your console dies (never happens, right?) you get to buy all your games again!
I don't think microsoft would be that stupid, the press would be all over them after the first console had to be returned because some part died.

Re:Locked to the console (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818491)

It will probably be locked to account, which I imagine will lock to console somewhat similarly to the way Windows OEM licenses lock to motherboard. If the console dies, then Microsoft would probably unlock the account so that it can be used on a different console, like the way they already handle OEM licenses for dead motherboards.

So, Microsoft, you're saying just like Steam? (4, Interesting)

AbRASiON (589899) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818267)

You want to make a console like steam, no lending to friends and no used sales?
Well Microsoft, I can deal with that - I buy heaps of things on steam and I buy a heap of things on my consoles, so maybe we can come to an arrangement here,...

Only one problem is, the average price of games I buy on steam would be between 15 and 30$ and the average price of games I pay for on consoles is probably 40 to 50$, Steam games are _very_ regularly discounted to sensible prices.

So if you're willing to drop the prices of console games down to a similar, sensible level, then you might see me participate in this. but don't for a second think I'm signing up for this bullshit at 60$ US a shot for a game (and I KNOW you assholes will region lock it, so as an Australian, I'll be paying - 110$ US per game with no way for American friends to "gift" me the game at US prices and I paypal them)

You wanna have your cake and eat it too? Sure but I'm not participating if so.

Well done Microsoft (1)

rah1m (2835227) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818275)

Microsoft is playing a risky game with the new xbox. They need to make sure that they cater for all markets including the second hand trade because companies like CEX, Gamestation all bring revenues to game industry. If you decide to pull the plug then these companies well go bust and less revenue for the industry. Microsoft should do some homework first before releasing a always internet connected device - not everyone has internet and most people prefer to stay offline to play games and video. I think personally consumer should have more control of what the product can do.

Ripple effect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818305)

I've bought 2 Xbox 360s. The first one was used, the second to replace the used one that failed (after several years of use). I almost exclusively buy used games for my Xbox because I think $60 is too much to pay. I know that the release-night guys will rush out and buy the game, and when they finish it, they'll sell it back to the store because they can recoup a lot of their money and use it to buy another new game. I pick up the used games, which supports that model of spending for the first purchasers.

I can say plainly that if anyone makes a console that only allows new games to be played, I will not be buying that console or playing those games. I also will not be buying used games and then purchasing a new activation code from the publisher. They lose no money from me for my used game purchases, but they may lose upstream money from those release-night purchasers who become more selective because the resale value of their games is lost. They also lose me on the few new game purchases that I make because I enjoyed the earlier used game so much. Think me buying dead space 2 new because I enjoyed my used dead space 1.

How It Used To Work (1)

StoneyMahoney (1488261) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818309)

In the past, our legal rights have coincided nicely with what's physically enforceable. We buy discs / cartridges / tapes with games on, we play them, we sell them. With always-on internet connections comes a method by which the user of a product can be verified before it can be used, so now the letter of the law is at odds with what's practically possible - and people with lots of money (and even more at stake) will make sure that the law is changed (or rather "clarified") to reflect this.

Physical media itself is already far more endangered than many realise and the damage to the first sale doctrine has already been done - by iTunes, Steam and Amazon. They have already proved by their own success that the majority of people don't care about their resale rights when it comes to music, films, ebooks and games. I can see this majority acceptance being used by politicians as leverage to achieve the clarification mentioned above, rather than lawyers trying to argue the case in court - they can't win with the current rules so they'll change them again.

While there is no single console that, out of the box, requires always on-authentication tied to specific people/hardware and has no physical media options, we are steadily moving in that direction. I think the biggest step we've seen so far is actually the Ouya - it may effectively be a repackaged Android phone, but it's marketed as a console with no physical media. As much as I'd love to have one purely for it's Plex client and retro-gaming capabilities, I can't help but be concerned about where this is leading.

It's all Nag-ware anyway (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818313)

I am fed up anyway with the way things are going gaming. I may abandon consoles altogether until all this blows over.

I don't think the manufacturers realise that not everyone can afford t pay £50 per game, without the opportunity to trade in old games against it.
And let's face it; most games these days are in fact just 'nag-ware' which constantly rub your face in the fact you are missing out on all the DLC you haven't forked over for.

Thanks, that's what I wanted from my new game; to be told that it isn't complete and I am missing out unless I pony up the green.

Grim days to be a gamer I say.
And gone are the days of buying a game and having the exact same experience with your friends who have the same game.

How to put a stop to this... (1)

bl968 (190792) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818321)

You have the power here. Remember if you as a consumer refuse to buy a overly locked down console it will fail, and they will go back to the old way of doing business. Punish abusive restrictions on your rights by voting with your pocketbook...

Re:How to put a stop to this... (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818405)

I have no doubt that other people will still buy the console and make excuses for the company (saying, "it's to stop piracy" or "used sales hurt the company"). However, it's not exactly difficult to not buy a game console, so it doesn't really matter. Unlike the situation where bad ISPs have monopolies everywhere in the US, I don't think there's a valid excuse to buy this regardless of what you think of the DRM.

Why do they call it the Xbox 720? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818331)

Because when you see it, you'll turn 720 degrees and walk away.

Always on... newp (1)

Drakonblayde (871676) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818341)

I don't necessarily have a problem with trying to cut out the used games market. It's a dick move, but it's their IP, so I can understand it.

I'd much rather they require online access for first run only. If you want me to authenticate the purchase with a one time code? I won't like it, but I'm ok enough with it that I'm willing to still buy the product.

If they're going to require me to be online just to play? Homey don't play dat, and home certainly don't pay for dat

This is really simple. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818365)

If I can't own it, I'm not buying it.

The only reason why I own a 360 and PS3 is because I feel like I'm buying a game, and I therefore own the disk that it comes on. I can expect that disk to work in any other console, no questions asked. It's mine, and I can do as I please with it- I can play it whenever I want, trade it to whomever I want, borrow it to whomever I want, doesn't matter. It's mine. I paid for it, I own that disk.

Copyright laws be damned, I don't give a flying fuck about what passes for law in the USA these days. I don't care if I don't "legally" own the data on the disks. I don't even care if it's encrypted or not, as long as I can buy a console, plug it into the wall (sans internet), and expect it to work. This has been the case for nearly every console up to and including our current generation of offerings.

If they want to take that away from me, then fuck them.

Nothing irks me more then spending money on nothing. You think you're buying Halo 5 for the Xbox 720? Think again. You're giving Microsoft a wad of cash and hoping that they'll give you something in return, and if they do- that they'll let you play with it for long enough that you don't feel like you're being totally screwed when they inevitably take it away.

So really, me "owning" anything today is a huge stretch- but this kind of shit just iterates how little my rights matter to these corporations. You keep forcefully reminding me that I'm paying you for nothing tangible and nothing that I can permanently keep- damn straight I'm not going to buy into your newfangled bullshit. How do you think everyone would feel if car manufactures had the legal right to break into your garage and take away your car even if you paid full pop for it? I don't think that would fly very well. How come the same thing is OK for gaming?

ps4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818383)

de 4 pour cent de saturation semble jouer ps3 sony quelle vitesse il http://www.ikincielesyaalanlar.info/

Don't buy bad products... (2, Insightful)

Mattsson (105422) | about a year and a half ago | (#42818389)

The easy solution is to simply not buy the product if you think it's bad.

Consoles suck with their constant "updates" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42818513)

So no new consoles to my house then. I already have PC, Ataris, PS1-3, XBoxes and most of Nintendos. Plenty of non-played games on them left. Although nowadays the XBox360/PS3 are just awful to use. Whenever I try to play a quick game, first I am forced to update the game. But in order to do it, the console firmware needs update. So, a 3min download and 15min install. After that, then I can update the game. And usually I just miss the whole time window for gaming and need to do something else.

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