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The Open Source Evangelists Respond

CmdrTaco posted more than 13 years ago | from the stuff-to-read dept.

Linux 252

EconomyGuy writes "Looks like the some big players all got together to respond to Microsoft's recent claims about the GPL. CNet is running a story about it, or you can read the response right here. If names like ESR, Linus, RMS, and Perens can all agree on something to say, then Microsoft's plan to split the community just might back fire on them."

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Must be a full moon (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218783)

Bruce Perens and Richard Stallman are agreeing on something!

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218784)

I prefer my news "from the goat's ass". So I would have accepted your submission.

What they agreed to say (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218785)

All your source are belong to us !!

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218786)

That just goes to show how dumb you are.

Have you seen any slashdot stories recently that wern't festering days old horse shit?

global enthusiasm? Ha! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218787)

You talk as if everyone and their brother is running linux. I think you will find that they are not. Most are using MS products; that doesn't sound like 'global enthusiasm' to me.

How convenient, Bruce. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218788)

You write:
I did not contact BSD folks, Debian folks, KDE folks, and no doubt some other people who would have been included if this was an exhaustive list. Mea culpa.
It looks like Bruce didn't want to include anyone who might have a moderate point of view.

Re:Translation (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218789)

We are your father

microsoft...nobody cares anymore (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218791)

microsoft's own damnable arrogance and consumer-unfriendly software renting schemes will sooner or later drive them into the ground, i swear this to you. Nobody but the most blind microsoft fundy listens to stuff like this and believes that microsoft is serious. it's obvious to anybody with brain cells that microsoft is scared to death of open source because they can't do anything about it, short of putting hits out on the top coders which they have not yet done to my knowledge.

So it's great that some people have shot back at microsoft, but let's face it, it wasn't exactly needed because any reasonable person knows that it was all fud to begin with. how does that old joke go? "How do you know steve ballmer is spreading FUD?" "his lips are moving." damned straight. Linux is looking better every day (and i'm not a leftist.)

ed edwards

Wow (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218792)

ESR, RMS, Linus, etc. It's like a human Beowolf Cluster!!!

We all know who the Real Bruce Perens is... (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218793)

May I have your attention please,
may I have your attention please,
will the real bruce perens please stand up,
I repeat will the real bruce perens please stand up
.....we're gonna have a problem here.........

Ya'll act like you never seen a slash poster before
mouse all on the floor
like mom and daddy just burst in the door
and started whoopin yer ass worse than before
they first had endorsed
buyin' ya a crappy computer (aaaaaah)
It's the return of the...
"awww..wait, no wait, you're kidding,
he didn't just say what I think he did,
did he?"
and Mr. Cray said...
nothing you idiots, Mr Cray's dead
he's locked in my bassment
microsoft women love Sig '11
chicka chicka chicka bruce perens,
"I'm sick of him, lookit him
walkin around, grabbin his GNU know what
flippin' to GNU know who"
"yeah, but he's so smart though"
yeah, I probably got a couple of screws up in my head loose
but no worse than what's goin on in your sister's webcam (eheheheh)
sometimes, I wanna get on ZD and just let loose
but cant, but it's cool for RMS to hump a dead GNU
My mouse is on your link, My mouse is on your link
and if you're lucky, I might just give it a little click
and that's the message that we deliver to little kids
and expect them not to know what a free software is
of course they're gonna know what Microsoft is
by the time they hit 4th grade
they got MS-NBC, dont they?
we ain't nothing but omnivores
well, some of us carnivores
who read other people's mail like crackwhores
but if we can read your e-mail like it's available
then there's no reason that a man can't forge spam from your account
but if you feel like I feel, I got the antedote
trolls wave your penis birds, sing the chorus and it goes........

I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so won't the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up
cause I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so wont the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up

Sig 11 don't got to cuss in his posts to get Karma
well I do, so fuck him and fuck you too
you think I give a damn about my Karma
half of you trolls can't even stomach me, let alone stand me
"but bruce, what if you win, wouldn't it be weird"
why? so you guys can just lie to get me here
so you can sit me here next to Natalie here
shit,Enoch Root's momma better switch me chairs
so I can sit next to trollmastah and Post First
and hear em argue over who modded it down first
little troll, flamed me back on IRC
"yeah, he's fast, but I think he types one-handed, hee hee"
I should download some audio on MP3
and show the world how you released it BSD (aaaaaah)
I'm sick of you little troll and l33t groups
all you do is annoy me
so I have been sent here to destroy you
and there's a million of us just like me
who post like me, who just don't give a fuck like me
who code like me, walk, talk and act like me
and just might be the next best thing, but not quite me......

I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so won't the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up
cause I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so wont the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up

I'm like a head trip to listen to
cause I'm only givin you things
you troll about with your friends inside you rabbit hole
the only difference is I got the balls to say it
in front of ya'll and I aint gotta be false or sugar coated at all
I just get on the web and spit it
and whether you like to admit it (riiip)
I just shit it better than 90% you trollers out can
then you wonder how can
kids eat up these posts like gospel verse
it's funny,cause at the rate I'm going when I'm thirty
I'll be the only person in the chat rooms flirting
cyberin with nurses when I'm jackin off to porno's
and I'm jerkin' but this whole bag of viagra isn't working
in every single person there's a bruce perens lurkin
he could be workin at Micron Inc., spittin on your SDRAM
or in the printer queue, flooding, writin I dont give a fuck
with his windows down and his system up
so will the real perens please stand up
and click 1 of those fingers till you drag up
and be proud to be outta your mind and outta control
and 1 more time, loud as you can, how does it go? ...........

I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so wont the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up
cause I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so wont the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up

I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so wont the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up
cause I'm Bruce Perens, yes, I'm the real Perens
all you other Bruce Perens' are just imitating
so wont the real Bruce Perens please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up

haha guess it's a bruce perens in all of us........
fuck it let's all stand up

It's amazing they could agree on anything (5)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#218794)

It's pretty amazing that those 10 guys could agree on anything. I can imagine them trying to agree on the wording of the document...

O'Reilly: Okay, let's not be too rough with Microsoft here, I still sell a lot of books about Microsoft products.

Perens:Yes, when you're not being a parasite [slashdot.org] on the free software community.

Torvalds: Come on, guys, we're going to try to be positive here. Instead of focusing on bad things about Microsoft, let's look at good things about Linux.

Stallman: You mean, "GNU/Linux [slashdot.org] "...

Bruce Parens? (2)

Wakko Warner (324) | more than 13 years ago | (#218795)

You mean () <-- these things?

Someone named them Bruce?

- A.P.

--
Forget Napster. Why not really break the law?

At the Edge. Let's take a look down there. (5)

Damon C. Richardson (913) | more than 13 years ago | (#218797)

This has taken a long time.

There is not much more that Microsoft can throw at this community. In the years that I've been reading slashdot. I've seen the average age drop. The amount of MS Serf spy's increase. I now have a desktop I don't have to configure with VI. I've enjoyed Oracle on Linux. I fell in love with Java on Linux. Seen Linus go from THE guy on a mailing list to Information Systems Rebel Icon. I've seen OS2 die... Then come back. ( useless interjection ).

Microsoft has accused the community of being a bunch of hackers and failed. Reported Open Source as being buggy only to have software developers around the world installing Linux looking for a stable plateform. Microsoft has givin the vibe that Open Source is not suited for security applications. When Net Admins have favored the security of Open Source for years. (BSD anyone?) Do i need to say anything about benchmarks? This is now the last real volly. We are no longer cannon fodder.

So is that it?

The Open Source sprit wins after decades of floating around?

Not really.

Now come something interesting... Can we get the implications of using open source libs in company applications. What about taking a Function out of a opensource application. Is it okay to just put "Stole from [ProjectName]"? These are the rules that need to be understood by companys. How will using opensource java classes affect my customer? With out the anwsers to these question outlined more then "free like beer" companys will stay away. Lets remember that the Homer in us thinks "Hmm Beer" for about 30 secs after hearing the word 'beer'.

Just my 2 cent's

Re:Life Imitates Segfault (1)

On Lawn (1073) | more than 13 years ago | (#218798)

LWN.net has a list of companies that are successful with open source, meaning profitable on this weeks front page.

"Sleepycat Software has been doing nicely with the Berkeley DB for years.

Digital Creations has built a solid business on Zope, and was briefly profitable before taking a new investment and launching into another expansion phase.

Prosa srl was doing well before its acquisition by Linuxcare, and is now reborn from the ashes of that mess.

Cygnus Software was an open source company way back before most people had heard of free software, and did very well.

Red Hat, which bought Cygnus, is closing in on profitability.

Cybersource has been doing well in the support business for years (see this week's Letters to the Editor Page).

It is not much of a stretch to include O'Reilly & Associates on this list.

Let us express our apologies right now to all of the profitable companies that we left out. "

And yeah, it is like shooting fish in a barrel.


~^~~^~^^~~^

Re:Agreement is unusual? (2)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 13 years ago | (#218803)

Yes but GvR has no reason to love the GPL (the current Python license isn't GPL compatible) and he still signed his name to the article. I would have liked to have seen a prominent BSDer on the list, but that's probably a little over the top. After all, a lot of those guys agree with Mundie's criticisms of the GPL (they would disagree with most of his other points, however).

Might Backfire? (3)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 13 years ago | (#218804)

Mundie's remarks have definitely backfired. Mundie got to speak to one small room of people, and the rebuttals have been seen everywhere. News agencies are falling all over themselves to print lucid, well-written, and oftentimes very biting replies to Mundie's remarks.

It has long been known that GNU/Linux is basically immune to being bought, bankrupted, or stolen, but now it appears that GNU/Linux is immune to FUD as well.

Re:Agreement is unusual? (3)

Jason Earl (1894) | more than 13 years ago | (#218805)

Fah, I need to triple check before submitting, because I agree 100% with what you have said. If Guido would have taken care of the licensing issues before he started work on Python then the whole problem wouldn't have happened.

This is one of the things that the FSF does right. They get all of the legal ducks in a row before they start hacking.

My point was that Python's license is a BSD style license (and not even GPL compatible there for a bit), so it wasn't his software or license that was under attack. He had no need to pitch in with the rest of the GPL advocates. His software is part of the BSD style crowd that Microsoft seems to approve of. He could have done what Ransom Love did and say that perhaps the GPL isn't such a good idea after all. The fact that he didn't do that is heartening, and shows that the rift between GPL advocates and BSD advocates isn't as big as the flamewars on Usenet make them out to be.

Thanks again for your hard work Bruce. Keep it up.

Which community? (4)

sheldon (2322) | more than 13 years ago | (#218810)

"If names like ESR, Linus, RMS, and Parens can all agree on something to say, then Microsoft's plan to split the community just might back fire on them."

Does anybody have links to rebuttals from the likes of Theo da Raadt or Jordan Hubbard?

I went to their websites and didn't see anything. Did they rebut Mundie, or just not think it's important?

When you say Microsoft has an intention of splitting the community. Which community are you talking about?

They certainly never intended to split the GPL community. But they did attack the Open or Free Software community, which has always had a large chasm between GPL and BSD licenses.

Seeing a number of GPL supporting noteworthies agreeing that the GPL license is good does not surprise me. On the other hand, seeing BSD camp members saying Microsoft's attack on the GPL was wrong would be news.

Re:Life Imitates Segfault (1)

Luyseyal (3154) | more than 13 years ago | (#218812)

  • Netscape - Consider the competition. Now consider that AOL is gonna go all Zilla. Now consider that TWTC employees are AOL. AOL isn't stupid, even if I think their monopoly potentiality is just as bad as Microsoft's RIGHT NOW.
  • Eazel - yeah, the file manager wasn't a great way to get services... maybe a groupware app would've worked, maybe something else... hard to say. Personally, I don't think start-ups are a good place to *create* free software. It seems to work better in the context of established business.

$0.02
-l

Slashdot article submission madness strikes again! (1)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 13 years ago | (#218813)

I submitted this a few minutes after I published the document. I got rejected. EconomyGuy's later submission was accepted. I guess it's not real until someone else notices it :-)

Bruce

Re:Parens or Perens? (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 13 years ago | (#218814)

Perens, like the Latin word, not as in parenthesis. "Bruce Perens" is latin for "Traveling Bruce".

Bruce

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 13 years ago | (#218815)

Well, I thought there was some virtue to getting news first-hand, "from the horse's mouth", rather than second-hand, from some other part of the horse :-)

Bruce

Re:Apache and Samba names? (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 13 years ago | (#218816)

Brian must be out of town or otherwise busy, because I got no answer from him. I didn't ask Jeremy or Tridge, just as I didn't ask most of the Linux distributions. Next time, it has been suggested that I just make a web form for public sign-up so that nobody at all is overlooked. You can all be on the list.

Bruce

Re:Ability to add my name... (2)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 13 years ago | (#218817)

Next time. Someone please send me the CGI.

Bruce

Re:Agreement is unusual? (4)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 13 years ago | (#218820)

Guido has been working with FSF to fix the license incompatibility. Apparently it wasn't an easy or comfortable process, but I think it's done. Unfortunately, the fact that the license got messed up in the first place is mostly Guido's own fault, he didn't do his legal homework with CNRI. OK, I've made worse mistakes.

Bruce

Re:BSD Names? (5)

Bruce Perens (3872) | more than 13 years ago | (#218821)

I did not contact BSD folks, Debian folks, KDE folks, and no doubt some other people who would have been included if this was an exhaustive list. Mea culpa. 10 people was enough to manage, especially 10 as forceful and opinionated as them. However, those 10 would defend BSD, KDE, Debian, etc., too. This was not intended to be a slight on any project. The people with the most name-recognition were the ones involved. I have already been told to include Mattias Ettrich or someone like him next time, and I shall.

Thanks

Bruce

...wow, that was cool :) (1)

gmezero (4448) | more than 13 years ago | (#218824)

Spin it again...

Re:Apache and Samba names? (2)

Chris Burke (6130) | more than 13 years ago | (#218828)

Right. Because having RMS, Linus, and ESR sign a document may be impressive, but it will be even more impressive if 15,000 /. users sign it.

Re:Parens or Perens? (2)

mandolin (7248) | more than 13 years ago | (#218832)

Parens is correct. However he mispelled ISR's, Linux's, and PMS's names (respectively). I was in taco's spelling class, where they teach you those finer points of distinction.

BSD Names? (4)

MAXOMENOS (9802) | more than 13 years ago | (#218834)

Wow, that's sure an impressive list of open source advocates. But, just as noticible is the lack of people from the BSD camp who have endorsed this statement. I'm curious: is this because they weren't invited or consulted? Is this because the BSD community thinks this statement is silly? Help me out here.

ObJectBridge [sourceforge.net] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.

Yah, right... (2)

rnturn (11092) | more than 13 years ago | (#218837)

What did the C-Net article say? That the response was ``exactly the sort of discussion that Craig was trying to foster'' (or something like that, anyway; damn my short-term memory problem!). I, for one, quite seriously doubt that Microsoft is interested in any discussions about OSS at all. They have to be wishing that it'll all just go away if they bad mouth it enough.


--

weak...really weak...ammo for M$ weak (4)

mr_burns (13129) | more than 13 years ago | (#218844)

Oh my gosh, what a bunch of spaghetti logic. What these luminaries really should have done is all chip in for a real PR flack, because they just exposed a hand of jokers.

Seriously. The "this is the kind of dialog [paraphrased]" quote says it all. MS employs some of the brightest spin doctors in the biz. The Mundie speech was probably engineered to elicit this very response, so that the spin doctors could get inside the Open Source PR thought cycle.

Now that this watered down, weak screed from inexperienced open media warriors has laid down exactly where they're inept at a media fight, MS now knows exactly how to attack. And their media army is quite more experienced at this sort of thing.

What needs to be done is the assembly of a proficient, professional PR effort. We in no way could outspend them in an attack or a push, but we certainly could employ or at least get volunteer skilled spin people to defend and counterstrike. Part of the MS spin strategy might be to distract or otherwise deplete the heroes of our cause. A third party needs to be esatblished to insulate the media efforts from the actual operations of Open Source.

This "Old monkish coder" as PR flack will only take us so far....and if overextended....maybe painted into a corner.

The points brought up in the article are all very good ones that needed to be expressed. Their delivery, however, was wholly incompetent. We need somebody on this who knows how to craft rhetoric to it's full potential and impact. Something that an 8th grader could read and understand, and bring out the Henry Flemming in all of us.

Re:OSS Religion (1)

Frey (14600) | more than 13 years ago | (#218847)

If the GPL is the gospel for OSS, does that make the BSD licenses heretical Apocryphal gospels?

Re:BSD Names? (5)

JabberWokky (19442) | more than 13 years ago | (#218851)


Bruce... I have to tell you, I nearly had tears in my eyes when I read the first few paragraphs and then slid that down to read the signers.

It's not because the people who signed that are important; if you invited everyone to sign, I think you'd see an outpouring of thousands of developers who had written one or two apps, artists who worked on icons or themes for those apps, and documentation managers and translators who polished those apps into professional solutions. As well as leigons of sysadmins, programmers, and a growing base of "average joe" users who only use open source.

It was proof that we are in competition among each other, but not locked in battle. That we are teams each working hard for the best score, but who can go to a pub afterwards and tell stories together.

Years and years ago, the big rivalry was vi vs. emacs... but (other than grabbing new users), the feel regarding the "war" was that it was a big joke; everyone was aware that they were editors we were talking about. The topic was something that two good programming partners could always razz each other about "Yeah, I ran it through awk/sed" "You know, if you were using a real editor like emacs...". The same went for the Apple/PC/Amiga/etc. groups - sure, they would argue you to death about why their platform was best, but at the end of the day, they didn't really care.

Somewhere along the line, as open source has expanded, we have gotten a thin but vocal layer of religious proponents. This group takes the new "wars" (KDE/Gnome, BSD/Linux, BSD/GPL, deb/RPM, distro1/distro2) as an excuse to call the other side every name in the book. Raw hatred is exposed, profanities are screamed through ascii or html, and ocasionally, real world attacks are made (posting addresses, etc).

But, this letter shows that when all is said and done, we can go to that theoretical pub together, and raise our glasses high to toast each others works, be they technical (KDE, Gnome) or philosophical (GPL, Open Source). It is the mutual respect from the heads of the various camps that moves me... it is their gentlemen nature.

And it puts me in mind of other groups of gentlemen with differing ideas who all banded together - one group in America in the late 1700s, another who got together at at Runnymede in 1215, another who followed a simple man named Ghandi, even a certain thirteen who were around during 30AD... all had a few things in common. They gave to the people around them, empowered the general populace, and they all changed the world.

--
Evan

Re:Translation (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 13 years ago | (#218852)

> "Microsoft, it's time for you to join us."

"Come over to the Dark Side, Microsoft!"

--

Re:Might Backfire? (2)

powerlord (28156) | more than 13 years ago | (#218857)

The whole industry is becoming more resistant to FUD, IMO, even where that FUD is reasonable (iMac not having a floppy drive-- I really like some other Macs, but not that one for that reason). This si very good for open source. Furthermore, Opensource is like an organism-- by the time you see it, it has already reached critical mass and is growing rapidly, IMO.


To use your own analogy, much like an organism, we've been fed so much FUD by MS, that we've developed an immunity :)

We're just one big happy family :) (4)

powerlord (28156) | more than 13 years ago | (#218858)

How often to parents and children fight?

What about siblings?

Cousins?

Now... what happens when someone picks a serious fight with a member of the family?

I think we all agree (at least on some high essoteric level), we just prefer to fight with family :)

"No one can push your buttons like a family member. Of course thats because they installed them!" --unknown

Re:Microsoft Tactics, etc. (2)

jonMC (31085) | more than 13 years ago | (#218860)

This raises an excellent point. A while back I was working at a tech consultancy that really did the bleeding edge stuff everyone talks about. One day we see an article touting this new study by Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) which said basically that wireless was going to be the next big thing. Mind you, this was less than 6 months ago, so none of us at the office thought it particularly newsworthy, nor that it needed to be stated so verbosely in a hundred page "study". We laughed it off as just another example of Andersen being 18 months behind us.

What one of the senior guys pointed out was that we, the geeky tech types, were not the target audience. Instead, Andersen was using this study to prime the pump for its own wireless implementations by planting the seeds in executives' heads. Their name is respected, so CEOs read what they have to say, and then think of them when they finally decide to hop on the wireless bandwagon.

MS is doing the same thing. I was at the Mundie speech with friends and all of us remarked that it was more a press conference than a speech. They're starting slowly on what will be a larger process of "educating" the people who matter. No you, not me, but the people who have the power to make those purchasing decisions.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (2)

spectecjr (31235) | more than 13 years ago | (#218864)

Microsoft deceptively compares Open Source to failed dot-com business models. Perhaps they misunderstand the term Free Software. Remember that Free refers to liberty, not price.

Hmmm... funny... you know, last time I looked at the definition of opensource on www.opensource.org and the last time I looked at the GPL license, GPL'd software and Open Source software were both, by definition, free as in price as well as free as in liberty.

Nice semantic waffling there Bruce.

Although Microsoft raises the issue of GPL violations, that is a classic red herring. Many more people find themselves in violation of Microsoft licenses, because Microsoft doesn't allow copying, modification, and redistribution as the GPL does. Microsoft license violations have resulted in civil suits and imprisonment. Accidental GPL violations are easily remedied, and rarely get to court.

Yes, that's because people were stealing their intellectual property. If you don't want to pay them for their stuff, don't use it. Use something else.

It's the share and share alike feature of the GPL that intimidates Microsoft, because it defeats their Embrace and Extend strategy.

No, I think it's more likely that it's because there's the chance (especially with RMS's push to move away from the LGPL) that at some point in the future, you won't be able to develop for Linux without putting your software out under the GPL as well. Which means you may as well stop running a software business the moment Linux reaches the point where it seals up the market.

Microsoft's Shared Source program recognizes that there are many benefits to the openness, community involvement, and innovation of the Open Source model. But the most important component of that model, the one that makes all of the others work, is freedom.

Different aims -- the MS program allows developers to see under the hood so that they don't have to rely on the docs. That's it. That's all it's for. And frankly, that's all it needs to be.

We urge Microsoft to go the rest of the way in embracing the Open Source software development paradigm. Stop asking for one-way sharing, and accept the responsibility to share and share alike that comes with the benefits of Open Source. Acknowledge that it is compatible with business.

No, it's not compatible with business

By DEFINITION, other people get the right to copy, distribute and publish your work the moment you release it under an open source or GPL license. If your business is based on selling software, that means that the moment you release your work under such a license, you've just lost your revenue stream. Which means that your shareholders have every right to take you and string you up.

Please, Bruce, explain how a license that explicitly says that others can copy your work for free is compatible with a business that sells software.

You don't seem to understand that something can be bad for one business, and good for another. As a developer, I would release my software under the BSD license, or as closed-source software. Nothing in between. Why?

Because I want compensation for my work. The cost of living in today's economy is not zero, no matter what you may have seen on Star Trek.

If I'm going to give it away, I'm going to give it away no strings attached. Which means that others can use my work freely.

Simon

Re:Might Backfire? (1)

Voxol (32200) | more than 13 years ago | (#218865)

I've used my floppy drive, maybe three times in the last 3 years and every time it was unnessesary.

Ever since bootable CDs and ZIP discs I haven't seen much of a use for them.

I believe you were able to buy an external drive if you were a 'die-hard' disc-drive user.

Re:Why do humans only band together... (1)

Voxol (32200) | more than 13 years ago | (#218866)

The (for all I know unintentional) B5 reference aside;

So why does NATO still exist?

One small flaw... (1)

Trumpet (42631) | more than 13 years ago | (#218881)

"How many times have users had to upgrade Office because the Word file format changed?"

As far as I know, the format itself has never changed. I know people still using Word 5 on Windows 95, and while they don't have all the bells and whistles of Word 2000 or Word 2002, it's possible for them to open documents created with the later versions (though some text formatting features specific to the new version may be lost...). Isn't the whole point of the purchase of the "next version" so you get some of those bells and whistles? I hardly think Microsoft has been holding guns to people's heads saying "You must upgrade or else." I know someone will bring up the idea of them not supporting legacy products after releasing new versions - but that is there perrogative. The amount of engineers required to support every version of every product would be overwhelming - even for a huge company like Microsoft. Would you really want the job of sittng around doing tech support for Microsoft B.O.B.?

Another 800-pounder? (3)

Sogol (43574) | more than 13 years ago | (#218882)

So Microsoft [theonion.com] views GPL [gnu.org] as an 800lb gorilla squatting between them and global domination...?
They are right about one thing: Open source is an "intellectual-property destroyer". (They neglect to point out that intellectual-property is an innovation destroyer).

Re:BSD Names? (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 13 years ago | (#218883)

Maybe they were too busy cuttin' code to give a shit about PR?

Open Source Microsoft (2)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 13 years ago | (#218885)

"Microsoft, hmm, sounds familiar, don't they have a project on Source Forge?" Ahhh, that'll be the day.

Re:Life Imitates Segfault (3)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 13 years ago | (#218886)

I dont know if the few hundred thousand web hosting companies in existance would agree that Open Source makes for a lousy business model. Even if Eazel was keeping their source closed and giving away their lame file browser for free in the hopes of selling services it would still be a lousy business model, it has nothing to do with their source being open.

Parens or Perens? (1)

Oniros (53181) | more than 13 years ago | (#218888)

It's all on the subject line :)

Re:Voices amid the Din (2)

Chalst (57653) | more than 13 years ago | (#218892)

The Economist has been running stories about open source responses to Mundies' claims, see last week's story [economist.com] . Idon't think the NY Times is capable of doing a good story on this.

On comparing Open Source to Dotcoms... (1)

szcx (81006) | more than 13 years ago | (#218898)

Microsoft deceptively compares Open Source to failed dot-com business models. Perhaps they misunderstand the term Free Software.

... or perhaps they were addressing their competition -- dotcom's with a vested interest in Open Source software.

You know, like two of the signee's on that press release -- Red Hat [quicken.com] and VA/Linux [quicken.com] .

Microsoft's statement is priceless. (1)

Nutcase (86887) | more than 13 years ago | (#218900)

From the end of the CNet article [cnet.com] :
Late Tuesday, Microsoft responded to the open letter. "We appreciate the dialog on this issue--it's exactly the type of discussion Craig was hoping to foster," the company said in a statement.
So Mundie was hoping to get a large group of well respected technical persons criticizing Microsoft and pointing out their monopolistic practices? Wow. Anyone else find that to be a bit of a strange plan?

Re:yes but look who responded.. (1)

Nutcase (86887) | more than 13 years ago | (#218901)

True... but while some of them are a bit extreme (ok.. most of them), you also have Tim O'Reilley, Bob Young, Larry Augustin, and those who aren't CEO's, but also arent seen as insane, such as Larry Wall and Guido van Rossum. (Does anyone see Miguel de Icaza as insane?)

All of the people who responded, zealot or not, have a strong interest in Open Source, and do represent the closest thing to "leadership" I can think of... at least in the public mind. And that show of unity among the community "leaders" is, IMHO, enough.

Re:Microsoft Tactics, etc. (1)

nublord (88026) | more than 13 years ago | (#218902)

You're right. After releasing statements that refute Microsoft's arguments, we should have sent a pro-GPL speech to the same CEO/CIO bunch. You can'd play second fiddle to Microsoft and win. We'll have to send the message to the CEO/CIO that OpenSource is good and why. Without that the CEO/CIO won't listen to us because we never talked in their direction.

Re:Why do humans only band together... (4)

nublord (88026) | more than 13 years ago | (#218903)

Why? Because humans, from day one, like to form groups. It just seems to be in our nature. There must be an in group, and out group, etc. It starts at birth (older brother or sister missing all the extra attention) and goes on throughout life in everything we do: car, clothes, skin color, political alignment, sports, IQ, career, house style, yard display, etc etc etc.

You will never get away from it. Even if you bring together 20 people who have the exact same thoughts and ideas they will somehow, someway, form groups that not everyone will fit into.

All that happened here was that each of those listed above forgot their special group (linux, OpenSource, GPL, etc) and formed a new group to attack a common enemy. When that enemy is beaten or destroyed they will quickly fall back into their respective groups to wildly hack about at everyone and everything.

Why do humans only band together... (5)

TomatoMan (93630) | more than 13 years ago | (#218906)

...when faced by a common enemy? Whether as hackers banding against the evil forces trying to quash open source, one city's sports fans against another, nations, or multinational alliances, it seems we can only get over ourselves enough to cooperate when we're threatened. Make no mistake, I support every word of this statement and am amazed by the signatures on it - the policies and strategies espoused by Microsoft are a threat to us all and need to be taken seriously. I just wish we could get together more often on things that weren't as directly threatening, with less venom and bile directed at each other (Perl vs Python, Emacs vs Vi, Gnome vs KDE, Red Hat vs. Just About Anybody, ad nauseum), instead of waiting for Big Evil Threats from Outside to remind us that we're all in the same camp.
TomatoMan

Re:microsoft...nobody cares anymore (1)

Jart (100459) | more than 13 years ago | (#218907)

Uh yeah. Rental is better than free. Secrecy fosters understanding better that open communication. Sure.

Because we can afford it (1)

Galvatron (115029) | more than 13 years ago | (#218915)

Friendly bickering is not neccessarily a bad thing in a time of peace. After all, it allows new ideas to crop up that might not otherwise if everyone avoided making waves. If one person didn't object to something vehemently, then he wouldn't bother forming a splinter group to support his views. Thus, we would not have any of those competing projects mentioned above, or their progress would be retarded (as in slowed down) because of lack of focus.

I think, rather than being depressed by how we have a tendancy to compete with one another, we ought to be impressed by our ability to recognize when there is a threat that is larger than all of us.

The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.

Some things money can't buy... (5)

mikeage (119105) | more than 13 years ago | (#218916)

CD-R to burn latest copy of Debian [debian.org] : $.40
Red Hat [redhat.com] 7.1 Standard Edition: $39.95
Micro$oft [microsoft.com] Windows ME: $162.85 [yahoo.com]
RMS, ESR, and Linus agreeing: Priceless

Microsoft really crossed the line this time (1)

vanza (125693) | more than 13 years ago | (#218919)

They even made ESR and RMS agree on something!
--
Marcelo Vanzin

Not all of them (3)

SpanishInquisition (127269) | more than 13 years ago | (#218920)

see [segfault.org] ...
--

Re:Microsoft Tactics, etc. (1)

equitir (142712) | more than 13 years ago | (#218925)

while it would be hard to reach these people and to be heard clearer than microsoft, a chance does present itself:
- the people signed on this response are a well respected and interesting group, joining forces.
- the response itself is well phrased and contains some good points about microsofts strategy and how their words and their actions don't seem to meet.
- after the antitrust trial, the public is more aware that there is possibly something wrong with microsoft.

so, if we're lucky, it could reach the general media. this could then end up actually serving to expose open source and its freedoms to the public and to contrast it with microsoft strategy.

hopefully, they may have set themselves up for something they haven't prepared for... (but let's not underestimate ms marketing/communication/fud skills)

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (1)

itarget (168249) | more than 13 years ago | (#218945)

Now, I realize that more than one person could be sifting through the queue at once and tossing out articles, and that what strikes the fancy of any one of those people could differ with the phases of the moon... but rejecting an article from the author only to post it when submitted by someone called EconomyGuy is certainly without rhyme or reason...

You have to admit it's pretty funny though. =)

Agreement is unusual? (2)

electricmonk (169355) | more than 13 years ago | (#218946)

If names like ESR, Linus, RMS, and Parens can all agree on something to say, then Microsoft's plan to split the community just might back fire on them.

I always thought that they were generally in agreement in all their views. Although, Linus isn't quite the Free Software fanatic that RMS, ESR and Perens are.


--

Re:microsoft...nobody cares anymore (1)

Kosmatos (179297) | more than 13 years ago | (#218949)

I think you are greatly mistaken. The whole Web service model may help you figure it out. That WILL work, IMO. For many reasons, software renting schemes will become the norm, and Microsoft will profit from this. They aren't crazy. Heck, I'm paying to rent software right now... Look forwards too sometime. Today: Cable TV, Music, Games on my cell phone, Games on the Net (Asheron's call, Unltima online, etc.), Games on the cell phone, etc. Tomorrow: Games on my AOL-enabled PlayStation 2, Web services, etc.

Microsoft Tactics, etc. (5)

Alien54 (180860) | more than 13 years ago | (#218950)

There is an excellent recent article [netslaves.com] in Netslaves [netslaves.com] about recent Microsoft Tactics. One of the Major introductory points he makes is:

[ . . . ] when Jim Allchin attacks Linux, he's not going after Linus and the kernel people. He's trying to reach about a hundred CIO/CTO's who can force their company to use Win2K servers on their boxes. All of MS's anti-Linux speeches are designed to get a very small audience to hold the line on Linux growth within the corporation. Of course it pisses you off, but that isn't the point

There is a lot more to it as well in the following paragraphs.

Point Being, the attack and response should not be against each others egos, but for the hearts and minds of the people who really count, who make the high power decisions. I note that

Late Tuesday, Microsoft responded to the open letter. "We appreciate the dialog on this issue--it's exactly the type of discussion Craig was hoping to foster," the company said in a statement.

Somehow it feels like MS is trying to try to trip up the evangistas into being too brash, by seeming to be so reasonable.

And utterly un-repentant.

Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (1)

cnkeller (181482) | more than 13 years ago | (#218951)

Maybe Taco felt that having authored the story, it was a conflict of interest in the submission queue....besides, don't you have enough karma? :-)

Re:Open Source Microsoft (1)

cnkeller (181482) | more than 13 years ago | (#218952)

Actually, I can't believe that no one pulled an April first joke and registred windowsxp.sourceforge.net.....

Actually, I can't believe that no one pulled an April one joke and registred windowsxp.sourceforge.net..., probably get sued by Microsoft for lack of humor on a trademark infringement.

Re:Open Source Microsoft (1)

cnkeller (181482) | more than 13 years ago | (#218953)

Woops, oh well, you guys get the point...damn cut & paste.....

Well written (1)

orcldba (195785) | more than 13 years ago | (#218959)

The main problem with MS is not a technical but mentality. If you see the world through the overgrown ego as they do - expect to have some surprises in life. Their 'Napoleonic' mentality will bring them down. The response is pointing MS to the right direction, but I doubt some how that Bill or Steve are capable of getting it. I just wonder, if anybody worked for them - how mach freedom the developers have in Redmond. dba

Re:Parens or Perens? (2)

sv0f (197289) | more than 13 years ago | (#218960)

Parens or Perens?

I like Lisp as much as (heck, more than) the next guy, but let's keep it out of this discussion, okay? :)

Re:One small flaw... (3)

mgkimsal2 (200677) | more than 13 years ago | (#218963)

When you're dealing with other businesses, and one of them sends you a file in Word97, and you're in Word95, you have to upgrade to (1) see the "extrat" formatting he has in there (by default often) and (2) make the changes you need to and send it back to him looking the same way, with your additions. The average person you're doing business with ain't gonna put up with you hacking their presentation. And saying "Save in Word95 or RTF please" - doesn't work. Word throws errors up warning of formatting stuff that may be 'lost' if you save in an older format. Whether or not your document contains any of those enhancements is beside the point - it warns you, and that's enough to scare people off it. Bottom line - you upgrade to keep up with the others you deal with who upgraded and don't like to be pushed out of their comfort zone.

Translation (5)

bitva (206067) | more than 13 years ago | (#218964)

"Microsoft, it's time for you to join us."

What they really meant to say was:

"Microsoft it's time for you to grow up and stop being a bunch of whiney bitches. All we hear from you is: 'Our product is better, linux sux'. You don't hear people from the Linux community bashing Windows do you?"

p.s. linux 0wnz m$

Re:Might Backfire? (2)

pcidevel (207951) | more than 13 years ago | (#218966)

Mundie's remarks have definitely backfired. Mundie got to speak to one small room of people, and the rebuttals have been seen everywhere

Uhmm.. you underestimate the power of the Dark Side. Mundie spoke to one small room and look how well we have distributed his message. Not to mention that open source advocates look like madmen in the eyes of the CTO's (how can anyone make money off of 'free' software? THEY MUST BE CRAZY!). Mundie got the exact response he wanted. It's called a troll and we (open source advocates) fell for it. We highly publicized Mundies rants and we thought people were listening when we said 'look how crazy he is'. Instead Joe (you know, average Joe) will walk away thinking that Microsoft must be right, after all, look at all that pretty glowing stuff in their coffers (read MONEY).

This is good... (2)

graveyhead (210996) | more than 13 years ago | (#218969)

... but will it get the exposure necessary to make an impact on normal people (ie non Slashdot nerdz)? Surely everyone has heard of Microsoft's little speech, as it was broadcast on many news channels, but will we see the same exposure for this rebuttal? Me thinks not. It sucks, but I can't see MSNBC headlining this...

Well, your fingers weave quick minarets; Speak in secret alphabets;

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (2)

graveyhead (210996) | more than 13 years ago | (#218970)

Agreed. I submitted this [newsforge.com] interview/article about a great fellow in our community, Loïc Dachary, (well ok my community) and it was rejected. I believe my problem was in mentioning the fact that I've worked with him. I guess being an insider isn't all that it's cracked up to be. :-)

Well, your fingers weave quick minarets; Speak in secret alphabets;

Re:Life Imitates Segfault (2)

update() (217397) | more than 13 years ago | (#218974)

Oh, and one more thing before I go home:

Microsoft deceptively compares Open Source to failed dot-com business models. Perhaps they misunderstand the term Free Software. Remember that Free refers to liberty, not price. The dot-coms gave away goods and services as loss-leaders, in unsuccessful efforts to build their market share. In contrast, the business model of Open Source is to reduce the cost of software development and maintenance by distributing it among many collaborators.

Huh? What's happened to all the theology about the distinctions between Open Source and Free Software? The two seem to be used interchangeably. (Maybe RMS was so pleased they said "GNU/Linux" that he let that one slide.) But that slight of hand is important here. They counter the attack on "Open Source" with something about "Free Software" and then jump back to the "business model of Open Source." And then back to Linux (which was largely created before anyone with an "Open Source business model" got involved) and then on to the GPL.

Now, I thought the most insightful part of Mundie's speech was the analogy of free software companies to dot-coms. Both had schemes where they would give away the uniquely valuable things they created (services, content, software) and make money from tangential activities (ads, selling information, stuffed monkeys). Both had plans that seemed awfully silly once the avalanche of clueless money stopped. Sorry, guys, Santa Claus has moved on. People will still make and give away free software but continuing to insist that it's the most sensible way to run a software business is starting to look pretty threadbare.

Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

Life Imitates Segfault (5)

update() (217397) | more than 13 years ago | (#218976)

Recently on segfault.org:

Open Source Advocate Has Yet To Rebut Craig Mundie [segfault.org]

Jeff Parns considers himself a model for free software advocacy: helping out at installfests, answering questions on the Central Kansas Free Unix User's Group mailing list, working in his spare time on a user-friendly graphical interface to cron. Why, then, has he yet to write a long-winded essay rebutting Microsoft exec Craig Mundie's recent remarks about open source?...

Honestly, these Microsoft speeches are really a windfall for open-source advocacy windbags. They're so utterly foolish that responding is like shooting fish in a barrel. (I'm talking about the "Open source destroys intellectual property!" stuff, not the part about it making for a lousy business model, which happens to be entirely true.) The Eric Raymond / Bruce Perens line went over as long as nobody had actually put their theories to the test, but it must be a tough sell to convince companies to follow Netscape* and Eazel into oblivion.

* Yes, Mozilla is _vastly_ better in the 0.9 release. I know that. But in the meantime, the company has still seen it's market share go from nearly half to zero.

Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

Ability to add my name... (2)

HaeMaker (221642) | more than 13 years ago | (#218977)

It would be a nice feature if Bruce could set up a system so that we could all sign our names.

Re:Might Backfire? (2)

einhverfr (238914) | more than 13 years ago | (#218985)

It has long been known that GNU/Linux is basically immune to being bought, bankrupted, or stolen, but now it appears that GNU/Linux is immune to FUD as well.

The whole industry is becoming more resistant to FUD, IMO, even where that FUD is reasonable (iMac not having a floppy drive-- I really like some other Macs, but not that one for that reason). This si very good for open source. Furthermore, Opensource is like an organism-- by the time you see it, it has already reached critical mass and is growing rapidly, IMO.

Nothing like the unifying force... (2)

rknop (240417) | more than 13 years ago | (#218987)

...of a common enemy, out there and openly declared.

-Rob

Re:Voices amid the Din (1)

gdyas (240438) | more than 13 years ago | (#218988)

The open source issue requires not only some knowledge of what software really is and does, but also knowledge of business law, licensing agreements, and the history of not only MS but the whole software industry to have a proper perspective & make a reasoned, analytic judgement. Consider also that everyone knows MS, while most think Linux is something you use to take down Yahoo & EBay, and you have your answer.

In a world where there're much sexier stories, like car wrecks and the death of has-been star's girlfriends, what else would you expect? The real world just wants to go online & buy a book, and doesn't really give a shit about who's monopolizing who. What pisses me off is that MS knows this & most of us seem not to.

Re:Why do humans only band together... (2)

iomud (241310) | more than 13 years ago | (#218990)

Mr. T uses Vi, he won't stand for any of that Emacs jibba jabba! It's just a preference and shouldn't be considered a holy war.

yes but look who responded.. (1)

rebelcool (247749) | more than 13 years ago | (#218993)

probably the worst people. Instead of widely respected businessmen responding, it was a group of zealots and blowhards. Now, if i were the president of a company, who would I listen to more..another company's president, or that sex-tip publishing (shiver) ESR, the ever-increasing radical RMS and co...

Microsoft really doesnt have anything to fear from linux, as m-soft is slowly starting to move more profit schemes into the home-OS as opposed to Server OS (where most of their money came from traditionally)

I wouldnt buy any. (1)

rebelcool (247749) | more than 13 years ago | (#218994)

then again, I would never buy from a company which gives its core (and most expensive) product away....

no, genius (1)

rebelcool (247749) | more than 13 years ago | (#218995)

its about giving your most expensive product away for free. Webhosting companies tend to charge for their services. (aside from geocities, and the few others, which can only survive as subsidiaries of huge conglomerates

Are you alive? (1)

rohar (253766) | more than 13 years ago | (#219000)

I read this Iron John [amazon.com] by Robert Bly at one point. In there he makes a comment that 'American Man needs an enemy, or he isn't sure he is alive'. It appears to me, that since the Cold War, Vietnam, The Gulf War, etc. have come and gone, all there is to do is hype Microsoft into the Evil Empire, so that everyone can have a Just Cause and try and Defend The Free World.

IMO... The Cold War at least made better movies (Call me Bond... )

Apache and Samba names? (1)

Quietti (257725) | more than 13 years ago | (#219002)

Along the same line, I wonder why the Apache and Samba team's names are not there too, given that they are two of the most visible posterchildren of the free software community.

And, yes, good point about BSD people not being there. I wonder why too, although BSD generally has kept a discrete profile, while Linux advocacy has attracted attention. This might explain it.

What happen (1)

Big Brass Balls (257794) | more than 13 years ago | (#219004)

Someone set up us the open source
--
Do I play Hockey? [nhl.com]
Posting at -1 since April 18/01.

Re:Slashdot article submission madness strikes aga (4)

Dancin_Santa (265275) | more than 13 years ago | (#219006)

Please note that your name is not the one mentioned in the writeup.

Poser.

Dancin Santa

Me too... (1)

AnotherBlackHat (265897) | more than 13 years ago | (#219007)

Is there someplace where other people can add their signatures to this document?

Re:MS backing down already? (2)

AnotherBlackHat (265897) | more than 13 years ago | (#219008)

No, I think a dialog is exactly what they are hoping for. As long as people are discussing the issue, the government won't support open source, and especially not GPL which is what had already happened. It's like when big tobacco asks for a dialog on whether smoking causes cancer - they don't hope to win the debate, they just hope to stretch it out as long as possible.

About that logo (2)... (1)

Salieri (308060) | more than 13 years ago | (#219010)

Microsoft, it's time for you to join us.

Quick, someone make a Borg Penguin logo.

--------------------------------

Global vs. global, Linux vs. OSS/FS (1)

melquiades (314628) | more than 13 years ago | (#219011)

(1) That's "global" in the sense of "worldwide", not "universal". Certainly there is worldwide enthusiasm for the idea of free software. And yes, you are right, that enthusiasm is not universal.

(2) No, not everybody is running Linux. Linux != free software in general, however, and this discussion is about free software, particularly the GPL. A great many people are using free software, and virtually everyone on the internet interacts with it.

So, in short "global enthusiasm for free software" is not the same as "everyone and their brother is running linux". Please check your troll at the door.

Software *community* for a change? (3)

melquiades (314628) | more than 13 years ago | (#219013)

A number of the free software evangelists, in informal discussion, felt that the proper response to Microsoft would be to stand together. Mundie's speech shows that Microsoft's strategy is to keep us divided and attack us one at a time, until all are gone.

Right on.

The current global enthusiasm for both free and open-source software amounts to diddly if the proponents of these ideas can't present a united front. When the software community responds to something like Mundie's speech or the DMCA with a thousand flame wars in the underbelly of the Internet...well, guess what: nobody cares. When we respond with consensus -- especially with such a thoughtful, articulate, and nail-on-the-head treatise as this one -- then we have a chance of getting somewhere!

My thanks and respect to this document's ten signers. I wish I could sign it, too, or at least give them all +5 karma.

What "Shared Source" sounds like to me... (1)

SirJimbo (320247) | more than 13 years ago | (#219014)

Share and Share alike sounds just like grade school children sharing their lunches.
Microsoft's Shared Source? Its just the playground bully,
forcing the little kids to "share" their lunches with him.
Sir Jimbo

"Who is more foolish, the fool, or the fool that follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi

A reasoned response (1)

Some Wanker (398209) | more than 13 years ago | (#219017)

I think the best thing about this response is it sounds reasonable and sane and is not rabid anit-Microsoft/IP vitriol. I am really happy to see the open source movement present itself well to the public. (Even if it took a while to write.)

Voices amid the Din (5)

LaminatorX (410794) | more than 13 years ago | (#219019)

I'm curious to see which if any "mainstream" news carriers pick up this story. Craig's letter got coverage in the NYTimes. Will this letter appear beyond CNet, /.,and ZDTV? Maybe with AoL/TW weighing in against M$ CNN might pick it up.
This is what saddens me in the FUD war. When computer science visionaries speak, geeks listen. When M$ speaks, everyone hears.

GPL DUH! (1)

4444444 (444444) | more than 13 years ago | (#219023)

BSD dosen't use the GPL. This about GPL.

Becuase it's about GPL duh! (1)

4444444 (444444) | more than 13 years ago | (#219024)

BSD uses the BSD licences not GPL

Quote: (5)

GFish4 (449161) | more than 13 years ago | (#219025)

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

--Benjamin Franklin, at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.

MS backing down already? (3)

blang (450736) | more than 13 years ago | (#219029)

MS: it's exactly the type of discussion Craig was hoping to foster

So, they're saying is "Craig was only trolling, and you guys ate the bait", but what is stuck in the grey unwashed masses' memory is some unspecified feeling that there is something fishy with free software licences.

Anyways I don't care. I don't give a damm what other people run on their computers anymore. Linux works well enough for me. I won't force the other suckers to get off MS-products, it's their loss. But they better not step on my toes.

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