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Asus Request Feedback on "Cheat" Drivers

CmdrTaco posted more than 12 years ago | from the does-this-really-matter dept.

Games 257

skunkeh writes "Asus have a poll up on their site asking the general public whether or not they would like to see "SeeThrough technology" available in drivers for Asus graphics cards. The technology in question is causing uproar in the online gaming community where the drivers can be used to cheat in games such as Quake III and Counter-Strike. Asus have posted some flimsy arguments in defence of the technology on their product page but they don't appear to be convincing the several thousand gamers who have already posted their comments." I still think this is cool stuff. People are just going to cheat online: drivers don't have all that much to do with it. And if they can't cheat, they'll DoS attack. Maybe I'm just disillusioned, but I have more fun playing with people I know and trust then strangers. Strangers cheat.

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257 comments

Pseudorelevant issue.... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#218526)

On the issue on cheating in online gaming, in my experience with a Q3 based FPS (STV:EF [ravensoft.com]), I've gotten attacked with claims of cheating because of someone else's ineptitude. Maybe they had a laggy connection, and I seemed better than I was, better than I should have been, but they would not let up with their claim that I must be a cheater. Lame.

Re:shouldn't that be... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#218527)

Depends. If you consider "Asus" to be an entity, then the singular form (has) is appropriate. If you consider "Asus" to be a group of people then the plural form (have) is appropriate. And please don't consider your local viewpoint to be universal, this sort of thing tends to vary by region. And the USA is a region, not the planet.

Gamers are being stupid (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 12 years ago | (#218529)

The gamers are being stupid here. People will write cheats and cheat anyways. If the cheats are public and published, as in this case, gaming companies can try to develop technologies that are less cheatable. If they're only distributed in IRC channels to people who want to cheat, the same people will cheat, but we just won't know all the ways how or be able to do jack squat about it.

Security through obscurity is no security at all.

Say what you will about slashdot these days ... (2)

torpor (458) | more than 12 years ago | (#218531)

... but it's comments like this which make the visit worth it:

"Maybe I'm just disillusioned, but I have more fun playing with people I know and trust then strangers. Strangers cheat. " - CmdrTaco, on multiplayer online gaming.

That one goes in the quotebin ...

Actually, my gf rocks hard ... (3)

torpor (458) | more than 12 years ago | (#218532)

... without needing to cheat. It scares me how good that girl is with a railgun sometimes.

Re:Depends on the game, and gameplay. (2)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 12 years ago | (#218533)

Yeah, but basically the bots end up hurting good players. I used to take it as flattery when some idiot started yelling about how I was a bot, but it gets old really quickly to have your hard-won Quaking skills (thank you, college!) credited to cheating.

----

Re:thats the whole point! (2)

Skyshadow (508) | more than 12 years ago | (#218534)

You must have a higher quality of friends than I do -- some of the more shameless cheaters I know are my friends.

Patches that turn opponent's skins completely red or white, occassional-use aimbots, wireframe patches, hardware arms races.

The real kick in playing this way is when you win anyway.

----

Re:Make 'em available (2)

Have Blue (616) | more than 12 years ago | (#218535)

When someone rips a movie, it doesn't affect you watching that movie in any way.

When someone using these drivers beats you 20-2 in UT, especially if he's a lamer who couldn't have done that without cheating, that's a pretty big effect on you.

Ban sniffers and disassemblers... (1)

ydnar (946) | more than 12 years ago | (#218537)

...because all they're only tools for illegal purposes anyway, regardless of their beneficial uses. To be safe, ban VCRs, MD players, CD rippers, DVD burners, stethescopes, lockpicks, cellphones and toothpicks too.

Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. If it matters, don't play against someone you don't know/trust. Besides, your CLQ ranking isn't Life.

OpenGL proxies already allow this sort of thing anyway. It's removed now, but there was a "Matrix" Quake2 opengl32.dll proxy hack that did similar things here:

http://users.chello.be/sf15772/

Somewhere floating around there are screenshots. It intercepted OpenGL calls and replaced all the walls with Matrix-style green character waterfalls and called the real opengl32.dll internally.

y

building in responsibility (1)

Drake42 (4074) | more than 12 years ago | (#218541)

The way to handle cheats is not to prevent cheating, but to make the cheaters accountable. For example, if every copy of half-life sent the players hardware ethernet card ID to the server, it would have a real list of who is who.

In addition to that, every player should be able to mark a please kick vote by every player that pisses them off. When the number of people who want a player kicked is greater than two thirds, the player is kicked and their ethernet card ID is banned. Problem solved, no server admin required.

The two problems with this are people who mod the client to send up a fake ethernet ID. That can be combated through encryption, but not solved. If you want to get really crabby, you could try some kind of trace route and ban everyone who goes through the persons next gateway IP number for 30 minutes. You'd disconnect more people than just the cheater, but there would be enough complaints that the cheaters ISP might do something meaningful, like unplug the guy. More likely, the little brat would just get bored.

The other problem is privacy. Lets face facts. Privacy does not exist in a public arena such as the internet. If you want privacy, log in only from public terminals or don't log in at all. Otherwise accept the fact that a unique ID is a requirement for a modern society. That is why you dont see people running around wearing masks all the time. Your face is your ultimate unique ID and in polite society you are not allowed to hide it. Since I can't see your face on-line, I have to make do with your unique ID number.

Drake42

Re:See-through card? (2)

ewhac (5844) | more than 12 years ago | (#218542)

Precisely, and this is ostensibly what the rendering option is for. It's a tremendously useful debugging tool for rendering engine writers and map makers to see if the bits of geometry they thought they were optimizing away are in fact getting chopped out.

Schwab

I think it's already too late. (1)

lungofish (6224) | more than 12 years ago | (#218544)

For the past few days, I've seen people consistently making blind, aimed kills in situations where you wouldn't expect someone to be. It's one thing to blindly open up on a crate or a door, it's something else to headshot someone running on the other side of a wall.

There was one guy Monday night who was getting AWP headshot after headshot through the walls on every level that we played, until the admin decided that he was cheating and booted him. Someone could've been ghosting for him, but he was doing it even before anyone died.

Though I don't think this is going to be as terrible as people assume. At least for CS, they'll probably have to make more walls and boxes impenatrable (the garage in cs_seige comes to mind) but there's really nothing keeping most people from ghosting as it is, and it gets pretty obvious very quickly when someone's doing something illegal. Though they need to lower the vote threshold to kick players, since CS voting doesn't work the way it stands.

Re:shouldn't that be... (1)

mph (7675) | more than 12 years ago | (#218546)

Yeah, if you want to insist that everyone in the world speak American. Some people are from places like England, where they do not talk it good like we do.

Who the hell moderated this "Informative"?

WTF are you smoking? (2)

Mike Buddha (10734) | more than 12 years ago | (#218549)

Did you even think about this comment before posting or are you just trying to start a flamewar?

WTF are you talking 'bout, fool? Nothing in the message you commented on about starting a flame war!?!? He was just saying that they should make all games cheaterific so that the cheaters would have no advantage.

[flame] This is what happens when you allow karma to go up for meta-moderating. You get a bunch of knuckleheads posting with a +1 bonus who don't even know how to post correctly.[/flame]

Hacking and economics (5)

Aphelion (13231) | more than 12 years ago | (#218551)

So you ask, why don't id software and Valve just add cheat protection to their games? Well, that's the funny part. Because the games use an open standard to render their scenes, they are also succeptible to all sorts of totally unpreventable "hacks." Just like id software loves to hack open protocols and add some error correction to UDP, Asus likes to hack the open protocols and modify the way some OpenGL instructions work. It helps their business, just like it helps id's business.

Is it A Bad Thing? No, I don't believe so. If someone will go to all the trouble to buy a $150+ video card just to see through walls, I believe that they would no less likely spend the five minutes searching to download the superwallhack cheat for Half-Life. Anyone who won't face up to this fact is simply naive.

Regardless, id software and Valve are both in the same boat: by using an open standard to render their games, they are relying on security through obscurity.

Strangers do cheat. (2)

toofast (20646) | more than 12 years ago | (#218560)

Maybe I'm just disillusioned, but I have more fun playing with people I know and trust then strangers. Strangers cheat.

You're not the only one. I'm a pretty nifty UT player, and I *often* get accused of cheating cuz I can run up the walls with the teleporter (and other stunts). You try to calm people down by saying you're not cheating, but the next thing you know, they're sending you tons of ICMP's down your pipe, increasing your latency. Screw it. I only play with friends now. If ASUS comes out with cheat drivers, all the better, maybe us good players will have a bit of competition!

Not really (2)

toofast (20646) | more than 12 years ago | (#218561)

Take care of her, love her, respect her, take time out for her, take care of yourself and your appearance for her.

She won't have a reason to cheat. Just be the same person she fell in love with. Too many guys (and girls) slack off in a relationship.

Re:VOTE IT DOWN! (2)

MarcoAtWork (28889) | more than 12 years ago | (#218569)

spirit of fair play? where have you been playing? I'd like to join you!

Compared to aimbots, client side hacks, spiked models, proxy cheating, rules bending (i.e. using game features in ways they were not supposed to be used to gain an unfair advantage), ping flooding other players etc. etc. these 'cheating' drivers are a drop in the sea...

is it really a question? (1)

htmlboy (31265) | more than 12 years ago | (#218571)

I would think that the gaming community as a whole is against the availability of these drivers. Just like the Quake2 aiming bots and all the cheats that have been found in counterstrike in the past year(s), its existence makes the game less entertaining for those people who play the game honestly. Only cheaters want this technology to be available.

If Asus can find a way to make it game specific and alert the server that the person is using the driver, it might be accepted, but that seems like a silly thing to try and do from a driver.

chris

Re:is it really a question? (1)

htmlboy (31265) | more than 12 years ago | (#218572)

And I suppose game designers, beta testers, and that guy down the street making a killer game mod have absolutely no use for these? That's like saying only drunks have a use for cars. It makes no sense, just because a small group of people might abuse them doesn't mean that they're not valuable tools to many more.

While I don't like the analogy (drunks aren't the primary users of cars), that's an excellent point I'd not considered. The driver could be a valuable resource to developers, but I'm not sure if that's enough to merit its widespread availability. But I guess that's why there's a poll and the ensuing discussion here.

chris

Re:shouldn't that be... (2)

Valdrax (32670) | more than 12 years ago | (#218573)

Actually, I think it should be had now that the site is Slashdotted.

Re:See-through card? (2)

acidrain (35064) | more than 12 years ago | (#218575)

It's a tremendously useful debugging tool for rendering engine writers

Almost all modern cards have an alpha value for each polygon. The idea that a 3d engine writer would need special hardware to debug a 3d engine is silly. They can draw all the verticies, a wireframe overlay or on more modern hardware render the polygon data that fails the z test into another buffer. It's a damn' 3d card... you don't need special hardware to get a different representation of your polys! Sorry.

"It exists" != "Its standard" (1)

Forty-two (40787) | more than 12 years ago | (#218578)

From all the online gaming I have played I can say one thing. I .. HATE.. cheaters absolutly nothing ruins a game more then having a couple people with a patch here or there that lets them dominate. Having see-though-walls that is one of the better cheats if you play CS (not as much in UT and quake but whatever). In CS you can shoot though walls.. I know of someone that had beta drivers a while back that let him see though walls and he completly dominated because of it.

I know that you cannot get rid of cheating.. there will allways be cheating.. but that doesn't mean that somehow making it more easy is fine. If everyone has a option to see though walls in the normal setup then more people are going to use it. The more people are cheating the more regular people hate it.. the more people that are GOOD get fingered as cheaters. I have shot people though walls and doors and had people accuse me of cheating. I wasn't. I just try for it when I see someone duck behind a obstacle and I get a good frag once in a while.

With online games everything possible should be done to make cheating hard. Its not about making cheating impossible, its about making it the exception when playing. If there are good reasons to have see though walls enabled at least have it so EVERYONE can see who has it enabled.. there are hacks and cheats of games that make it fun but that is ONLY when everyone knows what is going on.

Re:*Sigh* (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 12 years ago | (#218588)

How exactly is that giving you the tools to steal? Sheesh, at least get your stupid analogy right.

pfft (2)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 12 years ago | (#218589)

You dont even have to do any tricks to be accused of "cheating". Just have good aim and a steady hand or fast reflexes, or half a brain not to stand out in the open (he's camping!!).

No different than turning brightness way up (1)

trenton (53581) | more than 12 years ago | (#218592)

This really isn't any different than cranking your monitor's brightness or upping the gamma value. They're both less-than-honest ways of doing things, but who ever said online games required honesty? Is it cheating to use a low color depth to get a faster framerate? How about a faster cpu? Or super trick mouse?

If you want a fair fight, join a clan or play against your friends. Or join a server which bans cheats. Or, just get better than everyone else. The skilled players will always rise to the top, regardless of whatever visual or input assistance other players have.

Re:VOTE IT DOWN! (1)

Old Wolf (56093) | more than 12 years ago | (#218595)

Isn't it interesting how some people are all in favour of Open Source in general, but when it comes to something actually relevant to themself, they prefer security via obscurity.

I suppose these people are also hoping Quake etc. stay closed-source, in case someone modifies the source to cheat? Or even remember the DOOM days where you could load a WAD giving clear blood instead of red blood.

Do they also wish Linux were closed source, so that other people can't cheat and get better performance out of their operating system?

Makes you wonder whether these people actually embrace open source, or just jump on the bandwagon in order to sound cool.

Re:What a waste of time (1)

Old Wolf (56093) | more than 12 years ago | (#218596)

That won't help, people will just give their hacked driver the same profile as the real driver
(or also modify the polling function).

I presume the 'problem' with these drivers is that people can set it to make walls see-through?
To solve this problem, the server would need to perform visibility calculations for all players, then -not- send data on a player's location who is invisible, but only send side-effects (noises etc); requiring a fairly decent re-design of the game and using a lot more bandwidth and server CPU.

Re:shouldn't that be... (2)

Old Wolf (56093) | more than 12 years ago | (#218600)

Asus have a poll up on their site asking the general public whether or not they would like to see "SeeThrough technology" available in drivers for Asus graphics cards.

I don't know where you come from, but around here we use:
he/she/it has
they have

Come on People! (1)

ikekrull (59661) | more than 12 years ago | (#218604)

Surely you must realise that any manufacturer who releases their video drivers as Open Source is enabling this kind of cheating to occur, and potentially many other kinds of cheating we haven't yet seen. ASUS isn't open sourcing the drivers, but they are doing the next best thing - giving users the ability to control their hardware at a lower level than before. A consequence of this is the ability to cheat. Would you all bash NVidia if, because they released the source to their GeForce drivers someone hacked the driver to enable transparent walls etc.? So, do you want closed-source, proprietary drivers, or drivers that are free to be modified in any way shape or form, which may, as a consequence, enable cheating.?

Security through obscurity? (1)

Paelon (69063) | more than 12 years ago | (#218611)


People who want to cheat will. In fact Asus allready released see through drivers which are in widespread use. I see people cheating online all the time. If we all had see through drivers it would be easier to prove someone was cheating, and the only real way these people are going to stop is if they get banned from some servers.

Any decent server is going to ban people who cheat, so why get rid of our means of detection?

Information leakage, eh? (1)

Stonehand (71085) | more than 12 years ago | (#218613)

This could only be a problem if the client is aware of (and thus can render) things that the user can't see. That's more the game developer's problem than that of the video card folks, IMHO -- the client receives more information than the player should, ideally, have. Theoretically even without the ASUS driver issue somebody could try to hack up a trainer...

Of course, to fix the underlying problem the server would have to be able to do visibility testing from every player to every player with every state change, perhaps powerups and anything else that's critical to hide. Mostly players -- your client isn't told at all where an enemy is if you can't see him. It'd probably be expensive in an FPS...

Security through obscurity is the state of the art (2)

Narcopolo (77135) | more than 12 years ago | (#218616)

The problem is that the games can't be drawn on your screen by a remote server. Graphics cards are essentially Quake and Unreal accelerators, they know how the engine rendering pipeline works. Unreal uses span buffers and is pretty agressive about overdraw. Quake's VIS sometimes allows the kind of overdraw that these drivers from ASUS are hoping to exploit.

What kind of security are you talking about? There's no security with GPLed Quake, Quake 1 online playing has all but died due to hacked clients. In this case it's not a matter of gamers cheating, it's a matter of selling cheats to gamers that can't be patched or worked around, killing modern games. Security through obscurity is the only kind with games that let rules run on the client. And if you want these games there's no other reasonable choice.

Plus, assuming that playing with strangers has to be a bad experience, CmdrTaco, is pretty ignorant of how the game communities got started in the first place.

Double standard (4)

FattMattP (86246) | more than 12 years ago | (#218619)

<sarcasm>
So now people want to get rid of "SeeThrough technology" in graphics cards because it might be used to cheat by some individuals?

What next? Getting rid of peer-to-peer file sharing because some people might trade copyrighted data?

Yes, let's deny something that could be useful to many because of the actions of a few.
</sarcasm>

Cheating Schmeating (1)

Legion303 (97901) | more than 12 years ago | (#218629)

If you aren't camping you have nothing to worry about.

We already know the drivers exist. Holding them back now only means that someone else will implement it in the near future. Why put off the inevitable? The people who would use this to cheat are the same losers who cheat using other methods anyway.

-Legion

Well first was the poll to add it.. (2)

jon_c (100593) | more than 12 years ago | (#218630)

that was back on May 9th [shacknews.com]

now it's the poll to remove it.

shacknews had talked about this about a week ago [shacknews.com]

anyway it's a pretty big deal. For me, i get to hear about how i'm a "gay4ss l0z3r" using the "wirefr4m3 asus h4ck" when i 0wn everyone in CS [counter-strike.com]

-Jon

Re:Cheating Schmeating (2)

StevenMaurer (115071) | more than 12 years ago | (#218641)

In some games, like CounterStrike, weapons have the ability to penetrate thin walls. Kind of like reality, actually.

Some people lay down suppression fire; this is expected. However, if you use a wall hack, you can easily kill numerous enemies this way.

So no, it isn't just for campers.

See-through card? (1)

AMuse (121806) | more than 12 years ago | (#218643)

That would be damn nifty for bug-testing a zone in live play, if you're not the cheating type. Especially if it's one a person wrote is playing and winning big on. Need to see if they put in cheats that only they'd know about? Go for it!

In defense of the cheating angle, you can't honestly say that cheating isn't a problem now, what with the rocket-jumpers on half-life clearing an entire level in one jump 3 seconds into the game and getting your flag.


------------------------------------------------ --

Cheater Solution? (1)

friscolr (124774) | more than 12 years ago | (#218646)

People are just going to cheat online: drivers don't have all that much to do with it. And if they can't cheat, they'll DoS attack. Maybe I'm just disillusioned, but I have more fun playing with people I know and trust then strangers. Strangers cheat.

so what you need is:
[ a method ] to sort the gems and the crap from the steady stream of [ gamers ] that flows through the pipe. And wherever possible, [ try ] to make the [ gamers ] of the site take on the responsibility.
- paraphrasing of /. Moderation FAQ [slashdot.org]

Moderation, meta-moderation, and karma for gaming communities?

I don't game too much online; what methods similar to /.'s moderation have been tested?

-f

Re:shouldn't that be... (1)

TandyMasterControl (136043) | more than 12 years ago | (#218653)

Yeah, if you want to insist that everyone in the world speak American. Some people are from places like England,

Yup, England ...and Britain, too.

Drivers are already out (2)

Scrag (137843) | more than 12 years ago | (#218655)

Anyone who wants to use these drivers can find them online already, so this won't stop the people who really want to cheat. The people who wouldn't cheat aren't going to use these if they are included, so the conclusion is...
It wont make a difference!

There are so many auto-aim, modelhack, wallhack, bots, etc... that this will make no difference. Just play the game, and ignore the cheaters.

What a waste of time (1)

jailbrekr2 (139577) | more than 12 years ago | (#218657)

Listen, if they are going to cheat, they will find a way. Freely available hacked vid drivers will only make it easier. What we *really* need is for the games to somehow poll the hardware driver list of every client that chooses to connect to a game server.

*sigh* But it doesnt really matter. Where there is a will, there is a way...........

Re:Depends on the game, and gameplay. (2)

EvlPenguin (168738) | more than 12 years ago | (#218665)

Well, I'm more familiar with Q2 (i can't even count how many days i deprived myself of _any_ sleep because i wanted to play "one more map" of CTF or Lith Rail-Only), so I'll use that as an example.

If you're coming up on someone from behind them, and all of a sudden you see them spin around on their axis and fire dead-on (or some other humanly impossible feat), then there are two possibilities: 1) he's cheating 2) he's lucky. If it happens more than once or twice, it's the former.

However, most of the bots I've seen are so poorly designed that just watching them move is a sign. Especially when you notice railgun slugs coming from their back and grenades popping out of nowhere.

If you are just really good, and don't want to be accoused of cheating, find some equal competition. I guess it's a double edged sword no matter how you look at it.
--

Depends on the game, and gameplay. (4)

EvlPenguin (168738) | more than 12 years ago | (#218666)

In a game like Quake II, the ability to see through walls would hardly give you any advantage, because it comes down to your ability to move fast and aim accurately. However, in a game like Counter-Strike, a patch such as the one mentioned above could win you the game.

Anyone who's ever played CS knows the intensity of crouching behind a box, hiding behind a corner or ducking in a vent, waiting to make your move. If your enemy could just look up and see someone waiting in the vents, why not jump in behind the enemy and blow his head off?

Never the less, cheating in any form in a multiplayer game is not only rude and unfair, but you _will_ be found out, and when that happens, you are immediatly discredited. Just try to use a cheat patch or auto-aiming script for more than one round before someone yells "[your name here] is a BOT!!!". Then, hopefully someone in the room has administrative privlidges, and can ban the cheater. Or there could be a voting system in place to kick the cheater (like there is in CS). This is really the only way to stop cheating. It is impossible to prevent, but easy to stop with the right methods.

Cheaters:Online Games::Script Kiddies:Hackers
--

VOTE IT DOWN! (2)

electricmonk (169355) | more than 12 years ago | (#218668)

These drivers are totally ruining the spirit of fair play that exists alongside the fun that people have when they play an online game like QuakeIII or UT. This just helps the people out to ruin the gaming community.


--

Re:VOTE IT DOWN! (2)

electricmonk (169355) | more than 12 years ago | (#218669)

Of course, this is true, but you have to consider that there are many server operators out there who got sick of the cheaters and installed PunkBuster [punkbuster.com] to deal with all of the software cheats. However, actually having cheating occur at the driver level makes detecting any attempt at cheating sketchy at best, possibly banning anyone with a certain model of video card from playing on PunkBuster-authenticated servers.


--

Re:*Sigh* (4)

electricmonk (169355) | more than 12 years ago | (#218670)

Does that mean we should leave bank vaults open?

Actually, that's an incorrect analogy. He's not advocating that game developers purposely make it possible to cheat. He's saying that cheaters should be given the tools to abuse the game and make it miserable for everyone else, much like BUGTRAQ's philosophy that script kiddies should be given tools of destruction to embarass companies into fixing security holes.

Perhaps what you were trying to say was that since people are going to steal things as well, we should sell them C4 and Thermite at the highest prices that they are willing to pay. Which I wholeheartedly support, as long I'm the only one doing the selling and they don't go out to rob my bank.


--

Re:VOTE IT DOWN! (1)

ameoba (173803) | more than 12 years ago | (#218672)

Wankers will be wankers. Even if ASUS stops updating and releasing these drivers, people will continue to use them, even if they're not the newest + best thing, GeForce drivers are pretty much perfected.. no major improvements are going to show up in them.

Open Source Drivers would also be open to this (1)

laxian (174575) | more than 12 years ago | (#218673)

I feel that if open source drivers were more common, then this sort of thing would be way more widespread.

I wonder if a future game could somehow verify whether or not a player was using a "legal" or "game legal" or "original" or "approved" driver ... like with a checksum that it compares to a database or something?

-Christian

Re:Gamers are being stupid (3)

boaworm (180781) | more than 12 years ago | (#218681)

In some way you're right. People will always cheat, at least some of us. To that I agree.

I would not agree though that the result of a cheat being easily publicly available will reduce the amount of cheaters. I'd say the opposite.

Assume some people really want to cheat. They will find some way (wallhack, aimbots etc) and have their fun. Then there are other people who feel "that could be cool to test", and tries it. Not for the purpose of winning the game, just for the fun of testing it out. Those people whould most likely not cheat if it was not easy to access those files.
Then there are those who realize that gaming is more fun when played fair. Those people will not cheat anyhow..

Making it easy to cheat wont reduce cheating frequency, in the same way as making it easy to steal copywrighted material wont reduce piracy.

Strangers BAD. (3)

Mike the Mac Geek (182790) | more than 12 years ago | (#218684)

I agree, but listen to this. At one time, everyone was a stranger. Give some people a chance, they might surprise you. And if they don't, then don't play with them again. You were a stranger once. Remember how much it sucked when people wouldn't play with you?

ut cheats (1)

//violentmac (186176) | more than 12 years ago | (#218686)

The night the 4.0 version of CSHP came out I happened upon an an aimbot tweaked that same night to defeat CSHP 4. For purposes of self-edification I tried it out that evening. It was sad and funny at once. Sad because no on the CSHP4 servers was willing to accept the obvious, that an aimbot was in use; not one person accused me of anything. Funny because my connection was so sad only one out of 5 shots hit even with the aimbot. Come to think of it, maybe that's why no one was accusing me of cheating ;) Cheaters suck for gaming reasons, but I have to hand it to em for technical reasons. They've kept ahead of all the cheat protections, and now the cheat protections are more annoying than the cheaters. Or nearly so. And remember if you suspect a cheater, just duck. The aimbots I'm familiar with can't track crouching targets. Case in point, a low-grav Face server I played that same night (before I researched the aimbot). One guy is shooting my head off without pause, even when we're on opposite sides of the map, floating at high altitude. So on my next flag run I crouch in the air and for the last 30 yards to the base. The guy is standing right in front of me and can't hit me once. I'll have to stop into my bot source tonight and see what new strains of C-coded terrorism they've developed, see if they've done anything about that limitation. Rg PS Who is mad he couldn't cash in on the Mir Special at Taco Bell or the Crouching Tiger Free Fried Rice at the local Chinese place. How is my body going to make enough blood for me to go to the plasma center with so I can get cash for groceries if I can't get some free food? PPS Pint of plasma: $30 Plasma TV: $10,000 Figuring out a punchline that connects the first item with the second: Priceless

Make 'em available (2)

MrTilney (188646) | more than 12 years ago | (#218687)

Hiding an obvious use for something you've already paid money for is just plain wrong.

This is just like copy protection or anything else, someone, somewhere, is going to figure it out on their own anyway. And then it'll just be a lot harder for the rest of us to do it too.

Also, beyond the cheating aspect, there are some pretty cool possibilities for these drivers. Sure, people will cheat, but we really can't stop them. And that's a really lame excuse for hiding something as cool as this.

Very Simple Solution (1)

mikenet (190660) | more than 12 years ago | (#218688)

How about we have games only render objects that will most likely be shown in the scene? Besides making these "cheat drivers" impossible, it would probably increase the frame rates by having the processesor do some of the work(would really speed up NVidia based cards).

Re:thats the whole point! (2)

dstone (191334) | more than 12 years ago | (#218689)

If you only want to play with people you know, you play on a LAN.

Huh? Now I know I'm not the only one that does this... I run a private HL/CS server and play friends and coworkers all the time. But never on a LAN, my friend. We frag each other from the comfort of our respective homes, over DSL and cable.

The best competition (measured in terms of screaming and crying and laughing!) is ALWAYS with friends. Cheat video drivers isn't an issue with friends (we'd find out who is running a card that has cheat drivers available, soon enough). So the cheat drivers won't spoil the BEST gaming at least.

Yes, it makes gaming with strangers less satisfying though. Cause you just never know what the other guy is playing with. Unless there was a gaming standard to broadcast (untampered) HW specs to other players.

Re:is it really a question? (2)

SlashGeek (192010) | more than 12 years ago | (#218690)

... Only cheaters want this technology to be available.

And I suppose game designers, beta testers, and that guy down the street making a killer game mod have absolutely no use for these? That's like saying only drunks have a use for cars. It makes no sense, just because a small group of people might abuse them doesn't mean that they're not valuable tools to many more.

Hmm.. (1)

Gingko (195226) | more than 12 years ago | (#218692)

With open source drivers (by which I mean the source freely available, independant of license), wouldn't this debate then become academic? Since anyone could have access to the source to produce drivers, this feature will make it into somebody's code base somewhere. This would essentially reduce to another Quake-style cheating thing since clients could be using altered binaries without the server's knowledge. Possibly an argument against releasing driver source? Who knows...

The fact that ASUS are touting these as drivers for cheating (rather than just saying that the see-through feature is a 'special effect' or somesuch) leaves a bad taste. Although gaming clearly isn't the most critical application of computing, it doesn't absolve companies of responsibility towards their customers.

Henry

Re:Very Simple Solution (1)

Gingko (195226) | more than 12 years ago | (#218693)

It's already done, to lesser or greater extents. From the time of Quake (and before), many different techniques are used to cut the amount of geometry being processed. With graphics cards as agood as they are now, it's still an issue (maximise bandwidth usage, fillrate etc). A lot of graphics work is an exercise in culling away work at different stages of the pipeline. The key is to do this as early as possible, to maximise the benefits.

Quake makes use of a PVS (Potentially Visible Set), which does just what you describe, making a conservative estimate of the visible geometry at any time, and only drawing that. Fluid Studios [fluidstuidos.com] have a technique to make the estimate near (completely?) exact, but clearly they're not sharing too many details at this point. And of course there's simple frustum culling, which gets rid of objects outside of the field of view. And....

Henry

Cheating (1)

ZeroConcept (196261) | more than 12 years ago | (#218694)

I cheated back in the days of GLQuake with a voodoo card...Its a lovely thing if you have it, and you have a BIG disadvantage if you don't. They will be getting a lot of frustrated players (the ones that don't buy ASUS cards). My vote...this is a no-no

I have those on my system (2)

jchristopher (198929) | more than 12 years ago | (#218696)

My ATI card works the same way. In "half-life" I can see other characters through walls and ceilings.

Only in my case, it's because the ATI drivers suck so bad they won't render the textures, not because I installed a hacked video driver. Does that let me off the hook? :)

Cheating problems (1)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218698)

The problems are not with the drivers, they are with cheaters and a general lack of honesty, honor, and responsibility. It's not illegal to own a gun. It shouldn't be illegal to own DeCSS code. It shouldn't be illegal to own drivers that let you see though walls. It is illegal to shoot people with your gun (in most circumstances). It should be illegal to use the DeCSS code (in most circumstances). It should be [bad word here] to use video drivers to see through walls.

Re:*Sigh* (1)

Spazntwich (208070) | more than 12 years ago | (#218703)

Heh. Now that you mention it, I could've given a better analogy. That's what happens when you've had a rough day, and you see a story on slashdot basically saying "Why bother to try to stop people from cheating?". I'm just proud I managed to pound out a coherent thought :)

I'd love to hear your choice of analogy. :P
---

*Sigh* (3)

Spazntwich (208070) | more than 12 years ago | (#218705)

Ok, let me see if I get CmdrTaco's logic. People are going to cheat, so we should give them the tools to do so.

People are going to steal things as well. Does that mean we should leave bank vaults open?
---

I say release the drivers... (1)

Beatlebum (213957) | more than 12 years ago | (#218710)

We should have learned by now that you can't fight technology, it's better just to roll with the punches. This reminds me of the uproar in the online chess rooms when computer chess programs became powerful enough that cyber opponents were suspected of delegating their moves to a machine. The bottom line is people will cheat and cheaters will get found out. If people want to cheat let them, just move to a different game with trusted players.

Muds are still the best :) (1)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 12 years ago | (#218712)

When playing on-line, I MUD at slothmud. People cheat there, but at least there's ways to get even.

My younger brother got tired of UO, because the method many players employed was to gang up on newbies and take their stuff. When this happens day in and day out, the game ultimately (no pun intended) fails new players. Time to move on when it's not fun anymore.

--
All your .sig are belong to us!

No! Don't get rid of the cheats! (4)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 12 years ago | (#218713)

I can't very well admit that the reason why they keep getting headshots on me has anything to do with SKILL, can I?

A vote against cheats (1)

tmark (230091) | more than 12 years ago | (#218715)

I for one would NOT like to see ASUS continue producing these drivers. Sure, people will always cheat, but I can't see how gamers are helped by having ASUS encourage these people.

In addition, I disagree that playing with friends is better in toto than playing with strangers. Sure, I like playing with my friends, but it can be pretty hard to line up even a few of them to play for a few hours. I *love* being able to log onto the Zone at any given time and be able to play for a few hours with people who are more or less strangers, and indeed the vast majority of my gaming hours are spent playing with strangers.. But anyone who has run into a game where someone is lying in wait with a cheat or a rigged scenario knows that is just no fun and a plain waste of time. Yes, people will continue to make cheats even without ASUS' help. But why should I, as a gamer, buy a primarily-for-gaming video card from a company that is providing drivers that serve only to diminish my own enjoyment of the games themselves ?

Re:Make 'em available (1)

freek_daddy (250162) | more than 12 years ago | (#218726)

The thing is that this *isn't* like a crack. It takes a much more refined skill set to write a driver for a propriatary piece of hardware than to piece together a crack. It seems unlikely that anyone would spend the time necessary to produce a driver which was stable enough for the masses.

And even if they did, at least it would be community created - there would've been the demand which compelled some moron to write it. This isn't that. It's ASUS figuring (correctly) that lousy gamers and jerks will preferrentially buy their product if they can more easily cheat with it.

I, for one, will be sure to bad-mouth ASUS to everyone who will listen. Even after all the other video card producers follow suit.

Life, the Universe and Everything? Or just a game? (1)

bahtama (252146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218727)

It is a game. It is not reality. Get over it or get better. The people I know that cheat still suck. Plus, not everyone will go buy these things. Don't get mad at the company, they are just filling a niche of people dying to be good and be able to say "w00t! I killed you!" Or just change servers!

And I mod that last part (strangers cheat) a -1 Flamebait, just a little generalization there!

=-=-=-=-=

Re:VOTE IT DOWN! (1)

bahtama (252146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218728)

Buying this equipment for your computer is ALOT more expensive then the other software tools out there that are used to cheat, I wouldn't worry about the hardware part of it. Some newbie isn't going to buy something to help them when they can download and/or hack their models to play better.

=-=-=-=-=

Re:Depends on the game, and gameplay. (1)

bahtama (252146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218730)

But if you are REALLY good, say as sniper in TFC, you will almost always get blamed for cheating. If you are killing the other team constantly, you may be banned by the admin or voting system. In this case, you are discredited for just being good.

=-=-=-=-=

Re:Strangers BAD. (1)

bahtama (252146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218731)

So you agree strangers are bad, but you remember how much it sucked when others didn't like you coz you were a stranger? Does this make sense to you? You are only carrying on this nasty tradition...

=-=-=-=-=

Re:WTF are you smoking? (1)

bahtama (252146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218732)

The comment stated that all games should allow cheating so that cheaters can't cheat... Hmm... I guess I am confused. That sound like a no-thought comment to me. Solve crime by giving everyone crack and guns? Solve poverty by making everyone poor? Are those solutions?

And I must congratulate you on your flame, you have excellent form, the jest at html, the enclosing of the flame in tags to signify you are a true geek and the Mr. T reference. All that adds up to a great flame but let us try and stick to the topic.

=-=-=-=-=

Re:The scariest application of this... (2)

bahtama (252146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218739)

You know you can just edit that text file with the scores in it and make it whatever you want. Although putting the time at about 12 seconds for the hardest level will make people a little suspicious.

=-=-=-=-=

Re:thats the whole point! (2)

bahtama (252146) | more than 12 years ago | (#218740)

This is very true. Most people that cheat do it because they are not very good. So even if you have bad players cheating, they still aren't that good. Although when you get good players cheating, that's a pain.

=-=-=-=-=

NO! (1)

AnotherBlackHat (265897) | more than 12 years ago | (#218745)

After all the hard work did making my own cheat drivers, now they want to release the tech. so anybody can do it?
There just aint no justice!

Cheating is fun though! (1)

Spanishlnquisition (322890) | more than 12 years ago | (#218759)

Here's an example:
A friend of mine brought over Diablo one day, and we decided to try out the online multiplayer option.
No more than five minutes of being in the game, some guy approaches us in town and says, "I'm going to kill you" (heh, the art of subtlety). Of course, since I had my trainer running in the background, I was more than happy to humor him.
As we made our way to the chapel, we made small talk. "So, you're going to kill me, huh?".."Yup".."Sure about that?"..."Yup"
Sooo, we get to the dungeon and walk out into a clear area. Next thing you know, he's being nailed with 14 consecutive lightning novas. Well, that's one more smartass taken care of.
He had a friend with him who sufferred the same fate. But at least he tried to run.
They both logged off, no doubt because they got pissed and started kicking their computers or some shit like that.
But, I tell ya. I'll remember that day forever. My friend and I were laughing our asses off.
Since that day, I've never looked back. Cheating is damn fun and I'll never play the game any other way, lol.
Heh, the nerve of some people. ;p~
If they're going to be hardasses, they had better be able to back it up.

--

Multimillion game companies should hire coders (1)

CrazyJim0 (324487) | more than 12 years ago | (#218760)

Seriously how hard is it to write code that doesn't give extra data to the client? And maybe this has been brought up before, but software already exists to cheat. I say let everyone cheat and then suddenly the playing field is balanced. If only a few people cheat then nothing is fair.

This problem is easy to fix... (3)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 12 years ago | (#218761)

All maps in all games will just have to be designed with nothing but see-through walls. Cheaters would have no advantage.

All games will need to come with built-in aimbots, etc. as well...

Here's why this is such a big deal (2)

skunkeh (410004) | more than 12 years ago | (#218765)

Up until 11am Monday morning (when I was made redundant - yet another victim of the dot com crash) I worked for Wireplay [gameplay.com] - an online gaming service provider in the UK. The Wireplay community is truly enormous - our forums [gameplay.com] have nearly 2 million posts and we run a huge array of leagues, tournaments and other competitions.

You may laugh at online gaming but it is an incredibly rewarding hobby. I've been involved with online games for over two years now, having run a 500 player league in my spare time before landing a job at Wireplay. The average gamer in the league I was running would spend 2 or 3 hours a night online doing online gaming related things - playing on servers, talking with their clan mates on IRC or discussing league matters on the forums. Many people are even more commited - one UK clan that started out on Wireplay has now started playing in American leagues which requires them to get a team of 8 or 9 people together for amatch at 3am in the morning.

Online gaming is not just a casual passtime any more. It is a full blown hobby, comparable to real life sports such as golf, football or whatever. Leagues are hottly contested, friendships are forged and a whole internet sub culture has built up around gaming. All You Base is an obvious example of the kind of thing I'm talking about - an in joke fostered by the online gaming community which went on to (breifly) take the net by storm.

Cheating is a huge problem in online games. It destroys trust and means that truly talented gamers are often branded "cheats". It disrupts leagues, ruins people's enjoyment and can kill off entire communities. The new asus drivers are actively encouraging this kind of behaviour. They actually say as much on their site:

Not only will novice players acquire a faster learning curve when playing 3D games with this secret weapon, the professional gamers will also have a chance to test their skills with a new challenge in online gaming tournaments.
Secret Weapon sure sounds like a cheat to me.

I'll admit that the wireframe mode could be interesting, but it seems to me that Asus' primary reason for releasing these drivers is not as an educational tool (the claim on their website saying "It also allows users to learn more about 3D graphics rendering" seems pretty flimsy to me) but as a tool for cheating.

I've ranted enough...

Skunkeh

WTF? (5)

glenkim (412499) | more than 12 years ago | (#218766)

Man, I tried the ASUS see-through drivers on NPRQuake, and it didn't help my deathmatch skills at all! I tried the "wireframe" mode in the sketch rendering mode, and it didn't help me 0wnz anybody! What a scam.

Can't trust it... (1)

Son of KingKong Jr. (413190) | more than 12 years ago | (#218767)

It looks like this just disables z-testing. If you do occlusion culling or something else to reduce the visible set, then the hidden objects won't even get sent down the rendering pipeline, and still won't show up with this driver.

Greed screws up gaming (again) (1)

Supa Mentat (415750) | more than 12 years ago | (#218768)

I wouldn't be able to believe that ASUS is using the fact that you can cheat with their GPUs as marketing material if crap like this weren't so common. ASUS's job isn't making the games we play fun it's selling their cards. That means until gamers get together and collectively do something to punish companies that pull shit like this they're just gonna keep on doing it. There is a petition to ASUS up: ------------ http://www.petitiononline.com/badasus/petition.htm l ------------ That is a start but there will be people who aren't good enough at games to play well without cheating and don't have the moral integrity to keep themselves from buying these products. Here is a better solution ------------ http://www.punkbuster.com/news.html ------------ Punkbuster is a program that keeps cheaters from cheating, if it got popular maybe we could get rid of cheating almost completely. Anyway, I hate it when companies figure out ways to make money that screw the communities that they sell to. Blah.

Well... (1)

Sign42 (443691) | more than 12 years ago | (#218771)

When I first installed UT I had a major issue most of the walls weren't there at all for trying to learn the game it was just awful since you could only tell if there was a wall there if it exploded something you shot at it or you ran into it which made you look like a moron till you learned the map then it was just whoopassing with a 6th sense against them although I don't know what the see through patch would acctually show but some screens would be nice

The scariest application of this... (4)

PYves (449297) | more than 12 years ago | (#218775)

using the see-through to cheat at minesweeper! I played so long to get those high scores and those bastards can see the mines right off!

See-Through Technology (1)

WhtDaUWant (451060) | more than 12 years ago | (#218777)

I think the drivers are cool and people will just cheat on-line weather the drivers are there or not but still the whole concept of the drivers allowing you to cheat and cheating itself makes the game stupid. Where is the challange in a game of Quake if you cheat? Whats the point of playing games at all? My opinion, and people will torch or laud it as they will.

gg cmdrtaco. (1)

h0rus (451357) | more than 12 years ago | (#218778)

"I still think this is cool stuff. People are just going to cheat online: drivers don't have all that much to do with it. And if they can't cheat, they'll DoS attack. Maybe I'm just disillusioned, but I have more fun playing with people I know and trust then strangers. Strangers cheat."

yeah, so let's screw everybody else who actually plays online. after all, you are the only person that matters. your opinion supersedes everybody elses. rotfl, gg dork.

If these are like the x-ray tech..... (1)

CmdrSlack555 (451965) | more than 12 years ago | (#218779)

that I bought with my Sea Monkeys, then I'd have to say it was a hoax. Those specs aren't worth a damn. And those sea monkeys are more like brine shrimp than highly intelligent underwater kingdom-dwellers....
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