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The End Is Near for GameStop

Unknown Lamer posted about a year and a half ago | from the what-is-property dept.

Microsoft 393

kube00 writes "The rumor mill is saying the next generation of consoles might not play used games. What does this mean for retailers such as Amazon, GameStop, and Best Buy? Will gamers flock to the one console that can still play used games? GoozerNation speculates if the Mayan apocalypse draws near for used game sales."

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Gamers tend to be... (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942533)

... idiots. I've watched them give money hand over fist to companies that are screwing them blind. When games went mainstream shit went downhill, the fact that gamers put up with such onerous bullshit because they are so addicted and stupid is why we can't have nice things.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (5, Insightful)

Kokuyo (549451) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942681)

While the wording is pretty excessive, I do not think this post deserves a flamebait mod. Only that it's not limited to gamers.

And I even count myself as one of those idiots... I'm still buying Assassin's Creed games on PS3 even though I've been burned by Ubisoft repeatedly AND there hasn't been an AC game I've truly enjoyed since AC2.

So yeah, I'm pretty dumb. I acknowledge that fact.

What I'm going to do about it, though, is hack that damn console and pirate each and every game. I'm done paying before I can evaluate the quality.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943055)

What I'm going to do about it, though, is hack that damn console and pirate each and every game

Unless your name is GeoHot, no you're not.

And if your name is GeoHot, no you're not, until it's been out already for five years.

I'm done paying before I can evaluate the quality.

No, sorry, that's not how it works. You haven't "truly enjoyed" an AC game since AC2? So you're looking for some deep fulfillment from these games that they are no longer providing? And you think the problem is the games?

Gamers are not idiots ... (5, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943229)

... they are addicts

Gamers act pretty much the same way drug addicts do ...

No matter how many times they were screwed by the dealers, them addict will always go back to the dealers and buy more drugs

Re:Gamers are not idiots ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943297)

Whilst games can become an addiction it is not it's a form of entertainment, and the same happens with movies and television. Whilst you might have been burned by one directory/screenplay writer you might still check out there next movie as they might have done something different, it's this same thing that a player hopes for when playing the next installment in a game series.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (2, Interesting)

RoboJ1M (992925) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943059)

If I can't buy 2nd hand on the xbox I may seriously consider stumping up for a PS4
Dead Space 1 - Awesome
Dead Space 2 - Urgh, really?
Dead Space 3 - Gears Of War with buckets on their heads.

But I'll still buy it because sucker.

Except - SECOND HAND!!! WOO!

Re:Gamers tend to be... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943391)

What I'm going to do about it, though, is hack that damn console and pirate each and every game. I'm done paying before I can evaluate the quality.

No need to hack things to try before you commit to purchase. There's rental services like Gamefly. Additionally, there is some controversy over whether or not game demos hurt game sales. In my experience: They do. [mtv.com] My own anecdotal experience: Same product in different distribution markets, the one without a demo = more sales; I tried again with a different product and switched the markets where the game demo was available... Less sales again in the one with the trial version, so it's probably not just the market; This even holds true for software other than games.

The problem is that we're done with demos. Demos are obsolete. [unigamesity.com] It's hard to make a demo that leaves you unsatisfied enough to buy the game, but not unsatisfied enough to think the game is crap. So, the answer is simple: Refunds. On the mobile software markets like Android If you buy a game and don't like it you can just return it. This is better because it retains more impulse buy sales, takes less time to develop (no need to make a demo version), and is just as risk free as "try before you buy". I guess folks that don't have the money won't be able to play it, but they're not going to buy it anyway, see also your "hack the planet" idea as an alternative for these folks...

The problem is that Console makers don't want to embrace the concept full refunds if you don't like the game. Even on the upcoming OUYA console (if it ever ships) they mandate that all games must at least have a demo (or be free to play) -- The full game can not be purchased from the store, it must be unlocked by in app purchases. Unfortunately their whole market revolves around free to play, so it's basically a hack to make a regular game actually have a demo version and a full version. I haven't heard whether they'll allow full refunds or not, but since they mandate game have a "free" version I don't think you'll be getting the option to refund a purchase if the game doesn't live up to the expectations set by the demo.

Not even Steam allows refunds; Apple's App Store and Canonical's Software Center do have refunds, but you have to contact them and the refunds aren't guaranteed. I wish everyone just used the model Google Play does: Full refund if requested within $INTERVAL minutes. Currently Google has that set to 15, but I wish it were at least 30, or 45 -- IMO, that's the best option.

I feel your pain, and wish there was something us game devs could do. I buy Indie games and do so directly from the game devs' websites. Most indie devs I've dealt with will refund your purchase without question if it's possible for them to do so. Even had one pay me back via Paypal transfer rather than charge back (they were incapable). They typically have demos or alphas and are much cheaper than store-bought AAA games. Full disclosure, I'm an independent software and game developer.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942739)

I'm also pretty sure that the guys who boycotted Sony over PS3 removing the Other OS option and the PSN breach, will still happily go buy a PlayStation 4...

Re:Gamers tend to be... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942843)

... idiots. I've watched them give money hand over fist to companies that are screwing them blind. When games went mainstream shit went downhill, the fact that gamers put up with such onerous bullshit because they are so addicted and stupid is why we can't have nice things.

I can say the exact same thing about people who pay thousands of dollars for metal sticks and special shoes to hit a little ball around a grassy field. Or people who pay hundreds of dollars for the privilege to slide down a snow-capped mountain with two expensive sticks strapped to their feet for a day. Seems all those sports assholes have ruined a free ride for the rest of us.

Entertainment is entertainment. If people want to waste money on something, they're going to, so stop trying to target gamers who give money "hand over fist". They sure as hell aren't the only ones, and are likely on the low end of the scale when it comes to frivolous waste.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (5, Insightful)

VAElynx (2001046) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943105)

You can buy the sticks, shoes and even pieces of wood on the used market for a lot cheaper.
And, sure, there's a markup to make it rentable ,but the price there arises from manufacture - the sticks costing thousands of dollars tend to be made from light, hard alloys with mechanical properties to fit the job.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (4, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942879)

I completely concur. Addicted gamers, unsurprisingly, lack self-discipline enough to make thoughtful decisions even about that which affects them the most.

If someone were to make that part of their legal argument, it could do a lot to convince a jury that all of this game DRM is simply anti-consumer. After all, addicts of various sorts are both exploited and assisted. In many states, a gambling addiction hotline is announced with every lottery ad. We have banned cigarette ads in almost every medium and alcohol ads in almost as many.

People should be 100% entitled to keep the data/media they pay for. This should be required by law. They should be able to save it and hand it down to their kids or donate it to a library or a museum. Our culture and human history is being erased in the future so that people at present can theoretically make a few extra dollars.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943033)

> I completely concur. Addicted gamers, unsurprisingly, lack self-discipline enough to make thoughtful decisions even about that which affects them the most.

Because by the time we start gaming, we have already done our duties and we don't want to continue being responsible when enjoying ourselves, for such trivialities. It does hurt us back, but we'd sooner stop gaming whatsoever than taking responsibility of it.

> People should be 100% entitled to keep the data/media they pay for. This should be required by law. They should be able to save it and hand it down to their kids or donate it to a library or a museum. Our culture and human history is being erased in the future so that people at present can theoretically make a few extra dollars.

Non-games are not different, and when we have indeed bought our music, we aren't allowed to sell it or give it second-hand. Admittedly, the same is not happening with movies: what's rowing instead is we pay every time we want to watch it... When we pay at all, that is.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943103)

Is it so bad where you live?

Here, that *is* required by law (would be translated Right of first Sale of something).

>when we have indeed bought our music, we aren't allowed to sell it or give it second-hand.

We are.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (4, Insightful)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943309)

You all have a short memory. Its not the new gamers or even the new hardcore games that have a problem. There were exactly two industries that signaled the public at large was willing to accept degraded use rights to products in the name on content protection. Games and home video.

This goes back to the 80's, when games came with silly little start up questions like "what is the third word on page 20 of the manual." Games usually had substantial dead tree manuals at the time. Then the started coming with little card board decoder rings and such. After that clever ideas like key disk showed up, were the disk they sent had specific problems on some sectors, or perhaps the FAT had been molested in some unique way; so that in theory if you copied it the problems would not be there. So you had to insert this special broken disk every time you wanted to play; even if you had allocated some of your precious 40meg hard disk to it.

Then everyone mindless bought VHS tapes with macro-vision on them that were difficult to duplicate and had an inferior quality as well; without complaint.

The sad fact is most people don't think about this stuff or care. I am not sure what is to be done about it, but considering all the folks clamoring to get hold of the next walled garden device, be it a phone, game console, whatever and at the same time letting facebook be their personal information manager I think the ship has perhaps sailed a long time ago.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (3, Informative)

heypete (60671) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942999)

While there's a lot of games out there that I admit are a bunch of recycled crap (usually the next cycle of FPS games), there's still quite a few metaphorical diamonds in the rough.

For the money, gaming provides some of the least expensive entertainment around. Sure, paying $60 for the latest Call of Duty title with a 6-hour singleplayer campaign ends up being not terribly worthwhile from a cost-value perspective, but paying $25 for Portal 1 and 2? Well worth it. I find games like the Half-Life, Fallout, and Mass Effect series (to name but a few) to be enjoyable, replayable, and quite cost-effective entertainment.

Am I an addict? Not at all. I just enjoy the more interactive entertainment that gaming provides than a more passive form of entertainment like watching a movie.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (2)

jellomizer (103300) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943011)

However online app stores tend to sell/rent/license new games at a cheaper rate.

Re:Gamers tend to be... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943263)

... idiots. I've watched them give money hand over fist to companies that are screwing them blind. When games went mainstream shit went downhill, the fact that gamers put up with such onerous bullshit because they are so addicted and stupid is why we can't have nice things.

How is paying for entertainment being an idiot? People pay $50-$100 a month to have TV shows to watch. People pay up to $50 for two to go see a movie ONCE. Its not like a smoker who spends $50 a week to kill themselves, or some drinker who spends $50 a week drinking their intelligence away.

I doubt it (2)

Tyrion Moath (817397) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942543)

I'm not an insider or anything, but they seem to be pretty quick on their feet to adjust to the market. They're still going to sell new games and used games for PS3/360 for quite a while even after PS4/720 come out. They're also selling cards for your steam wallet and MS points etc. Probably still in the used system market as well, not to mention the nice margin on off brand controllers. If the end is coming, it'll still be a while yet.

Re:I doubt it (4, Interesting)

FyRE666 (263011) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942567)

I would imagine that people will also look at the other options before buying one of these consoles. Sony and MS (and Nintendo I guess) are no longer the only games in town. Alongside the raft of Android kit that's in the pipeline people obviously have their phones and tablets, and PCs have never been stronger (and in fact PC players buy as many games as either XBox or PS3 players, no matter what Bungie may want you to believe.)

Hopefully this will finally wake people up to the fact that consoles are NOT a good buy, unless you really don't own a PC, and want to game with your thumbs (which I consider to be as effective as playing the piano in oven gloves.)

Re:I doubt it (4, Funny)

jones_supa (887896) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942743)

(which I consider to be as effective as playing the piano in oven gloves.)

Jazz...

Re:I doubt it (5, Insightful)

mangu (126918) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943311)

consoles are NOT a good buy

Consoles are anachronistic by now. They are remnants of an age when there was a TV set in the living room and the family gathered there to watch. Back in those old days, a color monitor was an expensive item, so much that it made sense to use the family TV as a monitor.

Today, when people carry in their pockets a device with a screen that offers much better resolution than the TV screen did, consoles make no sense at all, at least not for the consumer.

There is only one group that benefits from the console system today, the game publishers. Consoles are what enables them to save money in development, because the range of hardware that they must support is limited, while at the same time allowing them to pump the prices up, by using DRM.

Re:I doubt it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943369)

Not likely. The far more likely scenario is that used gamers will suck it up and pay the extra $3-$5 on a new title. They may have to buy fewer games depending on their budget since they won't be able to trade in for discounts either, but they will still continue buying console games for one simple reason. As long as there are games on the console that aren't available on PC, they will continue buying consoles, no matter how powerful their PC is.

People have been saying for years that Windows is dead and Linux or OSX are ready to swoop in and divvy up the user base, but it hasn't happened yet no matter how much some people wish otherwise. Likewise, Android/iOS/mobile phone gaming is not the savior for Gamespot-kind, just as PC gaming has not been able to claim the mantle.

Prices will come down? Hah! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942551)

So the article speculates that the prices of new games will come down if second hand sales become a thing of the past.

Yeah. Right. If you believe that, I have a special deal, just for you, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, you could be the proud owner of the Brooklyn Bridge for the low low price of $1000!

Publishers will sell the games for as much as they think the public will pay. They're not going to oh-so-generously drop the price of their product just because you can't resell it down the road. I guarantee you, prices will stay the same, or go up.

Re:Prices will come down? Hah! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942595)

So the article speculates that the prices of new games will come down if second hand sales become a thing of the past.

Yeah. Right. If you believe that, I have a special deal, just for you, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, you could be the proud owner of the Brooklyn Bridge for the low low price of $1000!

Publishers will sell the games for as much as they think the public will pay. They're not going to oh-so-generously drop the price of their product just because you can't resell it down the road. I guarantee you, prices will stay the same, or go up.

Remember when those same publishers got rid of big boxes, printed manuals and goodies that used to come in normal pc game editions -- with the excuse of going green and lesser price ? Yeah, what happened to those prices ? They went up, up and up. And you ended paying much more for less.
It is GUARANTEED that if second hand games go the way of the dodo prices will not go down.
You'll end up paying much more for even less value.

Re:Prices will come down? Hah! (5, Insightful)

Vaphell (1489021) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942665)

true that, anyone believing the price would fall when the competition gets weaker (2nd hand stuff competes with brand new) is a fucking moron.

Re:Prices will come down? Hah! (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942777)

Their argument against second hand games, is that they want to sell more copies. They will sell more copies, and at the same price.

You know what? I say, go for it. The market evolves, and it will screw them over. Take Steam's console for instance, there's a gap, and they're going to fill it. PS3 was good because it had the Wii and Xbox as competition, PS4 needs to be spectacular.

Re:Prices will come down? Hah! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942827)

With all due respect to Steam, they don't allow second hand sales.

Re:Prices will come down? Hah! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943073)

No, but they do lower prices.

*yawn* (5, Insightful)

adolf (21054) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942557)

The rumor mill is saying that something might happen, and the question is about the possible consequences of this thing that may or may not occur.

This is too many layers of speculation to be useful for anything.

Please call me when someone knows something about anything. Thanks.

Re:*yawn* (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943355)

The point is that console developers and manufacturers are merely FLOATING ideas to see what their customers will tolerate.

If there is no outcry, then games that require "permanent internet connection DRM" (PICDRM) to play will become commonplace.

If there is a mighty hullabaloo, then that too will be factored into their ultimate (commercial) decision.

lolwut (5, Insightful)

tambo (310170) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942561)

> "If none of the consoles can play used games I could see the price of games coming down. AAA titles may come out at $45 or $50 instead of $60."

:lol: Right. Because when publishers eliminate the only legitimate source of price competition for their titles, they will become benevolent toward their customers and cut the price out of... good-naturedness? Rather than, you know, jacking up the rates for Halo XVIII through the roof, because they know that customers would sell a kidney to play Master Chef again?

Re:lolwut (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942785)

cut the price out of... good-naturedness?

No, they cut the price out of their desire to maximize their revenues. You can sell a $2 game to a hell of a lot more people than a $40 game.

Re:lolwut (3, Insightful)

bloodhawk (813939) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942791)

price competition? have you seen the prices places like gamestop put on used games? The only thing positive for the publishers in the used game market is generally the pricing is so high that many people will choose new over used anyway.

Re:lolwut (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942913)

Thanks, "Master Chef" made me giggle, even if it might've been unintentional. An extreme food prep game would probably be way more entertaining than any Halo title I've ever seen.

Re:lolwut (1)

prefect42 (141309) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942963)

You've seen Cooking Mama right? ;)

A headline for the End Times (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942563)

Gamestop is finished!*

*(Provided these unsubstantiated rumors hold true)

Dangerous Game (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942569)

What happens if they succeed in killing preowned sales. Gamestop/EBGames don't make a lot of margin off selling new games and almost nothing selling the consoles themselves. I have seen the precession of independent game stores fold in my town it's not small but not big enough to support that sort of thing, this was before gaming was more mainstream. You kill their revenue you kill the store they start to close the less profitable ones and you get a run on till only the big city stores survive. Then you don't have anyone to sell your stuff.

Sure the big chain stores will carry Gears of Halo: Black XV on launch day but what about the niche stuff and they certainly wont hold a back catalog. I would miss being able to walk in to my local and talk to the people I know there and get my game on the day it launches rather than getting it from some online retailer. Maybe they need to switch to a system where the publisher gets a cut every time their SKU is sold new or old, Gamestop would hate that so they would need to offer something in return. The publisher could sell their new game to the distributor for less. This would give less initial profit and more long term sales. Gamestop would pay less upfront for more initial profit but would lose some traded game revenue.

Re:Dangerous Game (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943085)

The publishers couldn't care less, they want to get rid of the distributors by going download only and pocket the cost savings for themselves.

Mayan Apocolypse (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942571)

That was sooo last Baktun.

End is near for new consoles? (3, Insightful)

guises (2423402) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942577)

I'm sure it's too much to hope that people would just not buy the new consoles...

The smartphone console (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942579)

There is nothing wrong with dumping the console and switching to smartphone and pc/mac games. The smartphone is the new console.

Retailers went too far (3, Insightful)

bluescrn (2120492) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942583)

Developers/publishers *need* to fight back against pre-owned, as game retailers really started to take the piss, and it's really been hurting the people who make the games. This isn't about stopping friends sharing games or selling them privately on eBay, although sadly these users will suffer too.

This is to stop retailers going to great lengths to sell pre-owned *instead* of new copies. Mixing new and preowned stock on the same shelf was ridiculous enough, but Iit's got to the point where you try to buy a new copy of a game, and they're actively pushing pre-owned even at the checkout: 'Are you sure you want a new copy? This pre-owned one is $2 less!'

This directly hurts publishers and developers, who need the new sales and make no revenue from pre-owned. Publishers have been way to slow and scared to respond, they should have clamped down much earlier. After all, it's never happened to this extent with music or DVDs, and I expect that the music/movie industry would be very quick to stamp these sort of practices out if pre-owned sales were being pushed in the same way.

Re:Retailers went too far (3, Insightful)

Kryptonian Jor-El (970056) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942623)

Bullshit. The reason why they can sell games at $60 a pop is because they have the value added to them that they can be resold. If I buy a $60 game and sell it to a friend for $30, then a game that cannot be resold is only worth $30 Being able to sell these games adds a ton of value to the game, so if publishers take this ability away, the price needs to DRASTICALLY fall, we're talking $10-15 for a new game

Re:Retailers went too far (2)

Exitar (809068) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942649)

Yeah sure, because before shops started to sell used games, the cost was $10-15...

Re:Retailers went too far (3, Insightful)

bluescrn (2120492) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942661)

If you had any idea how time-consuming and costly modern console game development can be, you'd understand why games are so expensive.

(Oh, even at $0.99, games bitch and moan about games being too expensive, too... the fun of being a mobile developer...)

Re:Retailers went too far (5, Insightful)

Kryptonian Jor-El (970056) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942731)

Thats not the problem. Make games that people want to buy at reasonable prices, and they will buy. If publishers keep pumping out expensive shitware, then yeah, they're going to be a problem.

And if developers are going to be removing features from games I purchase (the right to resell) then the price needs to be dropped dramatically.

Actually, forget it. Preventing resale will just light a fire under the pirate's asses; they'll crack the DRM in no time, and then publishers will have an even bigger problem than gamestop

Re:Retailers went too far (1)

JakeBurn (2731457) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942857)

If the games are digital download only and the console's hardware will not work unless its connected to the internet, (both things I've heard talked about for new consoles), then pirates don't stand much of a chance at having an impact. If both of those things happen there could still be people modding their consoles but the numbers would be significantly lower than being able to rip a disc.Also, to your point about value added, total bullshit. Steam is the most successful distribution platform on PC, they have zero resale ability and still sell games on release for sixty dollars. A few people will complain but when all the big companies do it, gamers will have to make the choice between not gaming and buying into whatever shit system they are selling.

Re:Retailers went too far (1)

Pubstar (2525396) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942891)

If you're paying $60 for a new release on Steam, you're doing it wrong. Here is what I've paid for new releases on Steam:
Modern Warfare 3 - $45
Borderlands 2 - $36
Brink - $30
Black Ops II - $42
Deus Ex:HR - $45

If you can't be bothered with finding coupon codes, you can always just wait 2 months for the -Insert Season- Steam Sale, and get it for 15-30% off.

Re:Retailers went too far (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942807)

If modern console games were actually games rather than crappy B-movies with the occasional interactive segment, they wouldn't cost half as much.

Yeah, it's great that you spent $100,000,000 hiring Hollywood actors to record those voices that I skip over because your dialogue is boring, repetitive and pointless when I just want to know where the bad guys are so I can shoot them.

Re:Retailers went too far (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943295)

If you had any idea how time-consuming and costly modern console game development can be, you'd understand why games are so expensive.

Then can you explain to me why simply going from 480p to HDTV somehow adds 20% to the price of a game?

Wii was the only console that didn't support HD, and it was the only one with new games with an MSRP of about $50. Now that the Wii U is HD, they too have jumped onto the $60 bandwagon.

Re:Retailers went too far (1)

VAElynx (2001046) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943185)

Hahaha nope.

Bullshit. The reason why they can sell games at $60 a pop is because they have the value added to them that they can be resold. If I buy a $60 game and sell it to a friend for $30, then a game that cannot be resold is only worth $30 Being able to sell these games adds a ton of value to the game,

This is completely correct. However.

so if publishers take this ability away, the price needs to DRASTICALLY fall, we're talking $10-15 for a new game

however, this does not follow. A manufacturer will sell their product for as much as their consumer base is willing to pay, and unless nonresellable games at current retail prices will end up being complete commercial failures due to widespread gamer rejection, they won't take the prices down (and even if they do, they'll creep up over time).

Re:Retailers went too far (1)

antifoidulus (807088) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942631)

Um, what do you think most of the people who sold the retailers those used games do with the money they get? I would imagine(though obviously hard data is hard to come buy) that the vast majority of them *gasp* buy new games with the cash, or just trade them in directly for a new game. You know, like basically every car dealership ever....

Re:Retailers went too far (4, Insightful)

docmordin (2654319) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942653)

Developers/publishers need to fight back against pre-owned, as game retailers really started to take the piss, and it's really been hurting the people who make the games. [...] This directly hurts publishers and developers, who need the new sales and make no revenue from pre-owned. Publishers have been way to slow and scared to respond, they should have clamped down much earlier.

By this logic, you should be all for contractors demanding and receiving a percentage of the sale price for any building they constructed, car companies forbidding the use of any second-hand vehicle, and all other sorts of wonderful nonsense.

Re:Retailers went too far (2, Insightful)

bluescrn (2120492) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942713)

You rarely get a car dealer saying 'no, you don't want to buy that NEW car!... buy this used one instead, for just $50 less!'

It's not a great comparison, though, as there's extra risks/costs associated with buying a used car. With used software, the used copy is exactly the same as the new copy (assuming the disc is undamaged)

Re:Retailers went too far (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942719)

In the Asian Markets China/HK etc, loss of first sale doctrine will be used to assert copyright does not exist , and churn out players with all the games preloaded. Be interesting to see what Germany does.

Re:Retailers went too far (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942781)

yeah, a real shame for retailers to think about their customers, and not just push whatever is best for their suppliers to the customers!

Re:Retailers went too far (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942905)

...Mixing new and preowned stock on the same shelf was ridiculous enough, but Iit's got to the point where you try to buy a new copy of a game, and they're actively pushing pre-owned even at the checkout: 'Are you sure you want a new copy? This pre-owned one is $2 less!'

This directly hurts publishers and developers, who need the new sales and make no revenue from pre-owned...

Ironically, this exact scenario plays out across the entire nation every single day. In used car sales lots. And in pawn shops. And in clothing thrift stores.

Why is it I don't see Ford lobbying against every single used car dealer, demanding they "outlaw" the sale of all used Fords?

Why is it I don't see Abercrombie and Fitch pissed at the fact that their $40 T-shirt sells for $10 at Platos closet, threatening the sue the entire used clothing chain?

Why is Rolex not demanding that all used Rolex watches be pulled immediately from the market and destroyed, since they're being sold for thousands less than what the MSRP is, crushing their "value" and image?

I'll tell you why. Because these retailers have already got their damn money once, and don't feel they should be paid again. And again. And again.

I fail to understand why you or anyone else thinks the gaming industry deserves this unique honor. As far as them being "hurt", well I guess I'll believe that when I see that multi-billion dollar industry actually start slowing down. Seems the music and movie industry likes to cry poor mouth too while artists and managers wipe their ass with $100 bills.

Oh well (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942585)

Hopefully a resurgence in PC gaming, although, more likely an even bigger surge in mobile app gaming. Yuck.

except..... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942615)

both the US and the EU have some nice legal presidents with regards to the sale of "used" software. So if I buy a game I have an absolute right to resell it without restriction, and if I "licence" it, either through an online purchase or through a cash-transaction-that-looks-suspiciously-like-a-sale I still have the right to resell.

Re:except..... (1)

detain (687995) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942693)

You can resell it all you want, that doesn't mean the console will play it. New games will be activated and tied to only 1 console.

Re:except..... (2)

Sunda666 (146299) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942871)

so if your console breaks you also lose all your games? sweet!

Re:except..... (2)

VendettaMF (629699) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943027)

That would be a clear and definite restriction on the right to resell (Specifically, the deliberate crippling of products to disrupt the standard commercial rights of the purchasers) which would near certainly be a case rapidly lost by the crippling companies in the EU.

American courts, somewhat trickier to call. Precedent, law and logic all say this is unacceptable behaviour, but it's unacceptable behaviour by a rich corporation, so...

Re:except..... (1)

Dog-Cow (21281) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942745)

No one would be blocking the sale; they would just be taking all the value out.

the EU saves the world (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942641)

In the EU and especially in Germany it is allowed to resell used copies of licenses of software and games.
You are explicitly allowed to buy high volume licenses and resell them individually (e.g., oracle and windows licenses).

It's like MS bundling IE and Media Player with Windows in the EU. Either they pay high fines (900 millions or more) or they
comply with the law in the EU.

Re: the EU saves the world (1)

myowntrueself (607117) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943005)

In the EU and especially in Germany it is allowed to resell used copies of licenses of software and games.
You are explicitly allowed to buy high volume licenses and resell them individually (e.g., oracle and windows licenses).

It's like MS bundling IE and Media Player with Windows in the EU. Either they pay high fines (900 millions or more) or they
comply with the law in the EU.

But this is a little different; you aren't even buying a copy of a game or a license. You are buying a 'service'. The 'service' is the streaming of the game to your console.

Re: the EU saves the world (2)

qbast (1265706) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943061)

The only company that streamed game to your machine was OnLive. Just because you download game to internal hard disk instead of having it physically on Bluray does not mean it is not a copy. US is probably screwed, but I don't think EU will allow this.

all hell will break loose (3, Insightful)

sdnoob (917382) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942685)

in the courtroom challenging first sale rights, click/shrink wrap licenses, etc. perhaps also format/device shifting, drm and circumvention of it to preserve customer rights... heck, even privacy and user tracking could be a part of it (that is one reason why the push to online-everything.. it's easier to track and report)

but the case will drag on for so long, that most of the readers here will be so old and arthritic they won't be able to play video games anymore anyway other than things like freecell.

when the supreme court does finally hand down a ruling, though, it _will_ be monumental (for the better, or the worse) and completely change how not only video games are sold, but also other software, digital goods (software, music, movies, books, etc) that are fast replacing physical ones, and the used/lending/rental markets for all of those (including ordinary public libraries and person-to-person lending).

PC gaming revival (2)

sir-gold (949031) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942701)

Hopefully this leads to people (re)discovering the PC as a gaming platform, so PC gamers can stop being held back by these stupid console ports that are written for hardware that was commodity level 6 years ago.

Maybe if enough people switch back to the PC for all their gaming needs, we can finally get Valve to release HL2 Episode 3.

Re:PC gaming revival (1)

PortaDiFerro (1719902) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942799)

Then again, you can't resell your HL2 either since it's tied to your Steam account.

Re:PC gaming revival (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942823)

HL2 doesn't cost $80.

I rarely pay more than $5 for a Steam game because I know I can't resell it.

Re:PC gaming revival (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942855)

I can, I am in Germany :P

Re:PC gaming revival (1)

Pubstar (2525396) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942923)

Steam games are so cheap, does it really matter? GTA Complete Collection (1-4, San Andreas, Vice City, and Episodes from Liberty City) for $20? Saints Row: The Third with all DLC for $17? Codemasters Racing Pack (Dirt 1&2, Grid, and Fuel) for $20? I can live without being able to sell my games at those prices. Hell, I haven't even touched like half the games I own.

Re:PC gaming revival (1)

gallondr00nk (868673) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943165)

Steam games are so cheap, does it really matter?

Yes, it matters.

This isn't about making games cheaper, it's about control and ownership.

I don't understand the goodwill Valve seem to receive from the PC gaming community simply because they have a few cheap deals on. Does it really give them a free pass to lock down PC gaming and take control of our purchases?

Some games might be cheap on Steam, but they come with a very high hidden cost.

Re:PC gaming revival (2)

metalmaster (1005171) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942845)

The whole attraction to console gaming is that it used to "just work" Now there's the BS with internet enabled games and dlc and the like, but guess where that came from? Ya, that idea was brought to you by PC gaming.

The pain with PC gaming is that everyone's PC is configured differently. Games have dependencies that may not exist on your PC. A game may take advantage of a niche feature of a video/sound card that doesnt exist in other cards. A game might work with a specific version of a hardware driver. This list can go on and on. Console developers and users dont have this problem. The hardware is there. The software is there and all of the capabilities are the same. Console gaming just works.

You donn't complain that networks dumb down your tv programming to account for your tv. Imagine if your tv were as complicated as a PC, and you had to account for audio/video codecs, aspect ratios, and framerates. Sure, you may have to do this if you download content from the net, but imagine if broadcast programming were this complicated.

Re:PC gaming revival (1)

Pubstar (2525396) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942907)

Are you still living in 1990? With DirectX, this really isnt an issue. Running on old hardware? I've seen tons of games with a DX9/DX10/DX11 checkbox to change mode to get access to more features. A few of them are F2P games running on custom engines, so it really cant be that hard. Also worth noting that DX9 is old enough (XBox 360 uses 9.0C, IIRC) that it reaches back to old ass hardware that you really shouldn't be using for gaming anyways.

Re:PC gaming revival (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943065)

The "A game may take advantage of a niche feature of a video/sound card that doesn't exist in other cards" problem is caused by the developers utilizing that niche feature and not simply because the hardware exists. Too many developers use this tactic incorrectly in trying to get a leg up on the competition instead of just designing a good stable game that will run on any machine. If games were truly made cross platform then this shouldn't be an issue. OpenGL and OpenAL were designed for this very thing. Just about every video card from the last decade is able to utilize OpenGL no matter the OS. And just about anything you can do with DirectX can be done with GL (it usually takes a bit more programming but it can be done)

So no, do not blame the hardware and peoples different configurations (underneath they are all soundblasters and OpenGL capable anyway) place the blame squarely on the developers who insist on OS locked api's, and their need to utilize the quadraphonic tonsil tickling eye smash super feature of the week. On top of that they prefer to always try and push the envelope with the latest and greatest hardware. They have the same capabilities for development on pc's as they do on consoles. They just don't use it.

Re:PC gaming revival (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943111)

A game may take advantage of a niche feature of a video/sound card that doesnt exist in other cards. A game might work with a specific version of a hardware driver. This list can go on and on, thanks to Dr. Who and his Tardis, which will take you to an era of gaming that hasn't existed for almost a decade.

Fixed that for you.

Bad move I think (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942725)

I think this is a bad move for Sony and Microsoft, and great news for Nintendo. It seems to me that if Sony and Microsoft take this approach, more people will move to the Nintendo Wii U as opposed to PS4 or whatever it's going to be called. I could be wrong, but that's my prediction.

GameStop pivot (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942727)

The last time I was in a GameStop (on Market St. in San Francisco) I was surprised at the near complete transition that had been made. Sure, they sold games. But right in front of the store were a ton of used iPhones, iPads, iPods, Galaxy tabs... And I got the impression they were driving more interest than anything else in the store.

Re:GameStop pivot (1)

EmagGeek (574360) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943175)

Ditto that. The GameStop here is selling used cell phones, new and used PCs, and other consumer electronic goods.

Games seem to be a side business for them.

Apocalyspse? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942747)

So... Just like steam? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942763)

So, it will be just like with Steam on the PC?

Re:So... Just like steam? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943063)

So, it will be just like with Steam on the PC?

Yes, except there won't be an 'everything for $5!' sale every other month.

BEN DOVER !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42942767)

You know you want it !!

Just like you get it !!

Otherwise you would not !!

BEN DOVER !!

The End Is Near for Console Gaming (1)

JohnRoss1968 (574825) | about a year and a half ago | (#42942953)

That is what the title should be.
I do not play any games on consoles anymore. We have 2 XBox 360s but I wont play them. We also have had Wii's, N64s (a fav of mine) as well as other consoles.
I play all of my games on my PC. It has a better selection of games. The games are easier to deal with. Plus I refuse to use controllers when I have a mouse and keyboard that work so much better.
Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot here. They are trying to get the XBox series to be their gateway into your living-room. Imagine the advantage they would have had if the XBox 720 (or whatever its going to be called) was the only console that did not have these stupid anti-consumer restrictions built into it.
Even the Ouya game system is dropping the ball. Sure it doesn't have all of the restriction the big boys have but I have to wonder, since it is powered by Android, why not include the Google store and all of its apps. If it had that I would buy it in a heartbeat. Then all I would need is a way to use Android apps on my Windows desktop.

Re:The End Is Near for Console Gaming (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943099)

Even the Ouya game system is dropping the ball. Sure it doesn't have all of the restriction the big boys have but I have to wonder, since it is powered by Android, why not include the Google store and all of its apps.

My guess? They don't want Google Play and will provide their own store so THEY can get a cut of the revenue. It's all about the money.

Re:The End Is Near for Console Gaming (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943393)

Do you use the keyboard to play racing games? Or fighting games?

Or maybe those kind of games don't happen to interest you. They interest lots of other paying customers, though.

Never fear my friends (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943057)

Just wait untill the box is hacked and modded and all will be well.

Shutdown resale? (1)

daniel.garcia.romero (2755603) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943117)

Really? I think their main idea is to somehow get a cut from used games, let's say 20% for each game sold by consumers. They would have to be REALLY dumb loose this opportunity (not that I agree with, they have no entitlement stuff I buy).

Think Monsanto (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943181)

You cannot prevent someone from selling their property and preventing them to do so by making the consoles not accept such property would land them in shit so deep with the courts they'd need a submarine.BUT ! Monsanto is trying to pull the trick with their so called roundup ready seeds . Bill G is one of their investors . Patterns emerge . We have to wait for the supreme court to decide on Monsanto to see what will happen to the software industry.
My guess is like usual , big money will win and the consumer , and farmers will be screwed. No wonder the republicans are so against consumer protection and try to shut or destroy all consumer protections. Their rich contributors benefit from it . We need to see what the Supreme Court says. I suspect they will side with their rich masters. USA , A government of the people , by the corporations , for the corporations. Thank God i don't live there.

Human - Slashdot Translation Log (1)

fenix849 (1009013) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943209)

Human Written Article (Summation on last line): "Personally, I think GameStop will still be around for years to come no matter what happens to console gaming."

Resultant hypetard Slashdot headline: "The End Is Near for GameStop"

Yep, bout right.

Dear Console Makers.... (1)

Mysticalfruit (533341) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943235)

Dear Console Makers,

Let me be crystal clear. I will NEVER buy a console that is incapable of playing used games, PERIOD.

If I am capable of buying physical media for my console, I should have the right to lend / sell / trade that media with others including companies who may resell it.

If I am capable of downloading games for my console, I should have the right to save those games to external media and play them on other consoles. Not copy them to the other console, but merely play them.

I am fundamentally opposed to the DLC model because it encourages companies to sell games that are incomplete or to sell advantage to those willing to pay for it.

That's my $.03. when it comes to Consoles.

degenerate addicts will do anything for their fix (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943287)

And addicted degenerate gamers are no exception.

They will buy whatever console gives them the best experience and will fork over fistfuls of money for both the console and the games that they can no longer buy or sell second-hand.

There's always one way to get games cheap: (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943301)

Hold out for a price drop or three. Few things depreciate like last year's games.

Re:There's always one way to get games cheap: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42943345)

Have fun playing them all by yourself while all of your friends are buying this year's games.

"the rumor mill" (2, Insightful)

gtirloni (1531285) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943307)

That's redundant, what else is on Slashdot these days? :)

How much of their business is used games? (1)

damn_registrars (1103043) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943361)

When I walk or drive past a gamestop, I seldom see people browsing, even when they are doing a big sale on used games. However they frequently have big banners up telling people to pre-order Halo 17, Half-life 12, or Fifa soccer 2020. It appears that they make more money from the new stuff than the old, from what I have seen from walking or driving past any number of gamestop locations in my area.

There's a silver lining (1)

Teckla (630646) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943385)

As someone that has loaned friends optical discs and gotten them back scratched, I can see a silver lining...

"Sorry, I'd love to loan you this game, but it only plays in my console!"

That being said, I do think making used games unplayable is a greedy money grab.

Contrary to European legislation (3, Interesting)

paugq (443696) | about a year and a half ago | (#42943389)

Depending on how they implement the "no used games" feature, it may be contrary to European law. There was a ruling against Oracle last year saying it is perfectly fine to resell second-hand software:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-09-16/second-hand-software-sales-set-to-soar-on-oracle-ruling [businessweek.com]

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