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'This Is Your Second and Final Notice' Robocallers Revealed

Soulskill posted about a year and a half ago | from the hello-sir-madam dept.

Communications 235

nbauman writes "A New York Times consumer columnist tracked down the people who run a 'This is your second and final notice" robocall operation. The calls came from Account Management Assistance, which promises to negotiate lower credit card rates with banks. One woman paid them $1,000, and all they did was give her a limited-time zero-percent credit card that she could have gotten herself. AMA has a post office box in Orlando, Florida. The Better Business Bureau has a page for Your Financial Ladder, which does business as Account Management Assistance, and as Economic Progress. According to a Florida incorporation filing, Economic Progress is operated by Brenda Helfenstine, with her husband Tony. The Arkansas attorney general has sued Your Financial Ladder for violating the Telemarketing Consumer Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act. The Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services investigated Your Financial Ladder, but the investigator went to 1760 Sundance Drive, St. Cloud, which turned out to be a residence, and gave up. The Times notes that you can type their phone number (855-462-3833) into http://800notes.com/ and get lots of reports on them."

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Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997093)

These fuckers relentless harassed my grandmother in her final days despite my efforts to put her on the do not call list and working with her telephone company to try to identify them.

Take all their money. All of it. Take it all and put it into something that helps the elderly.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997147)

Oh come on, man, you wouldn't have anything on your conscious if you left them to die in the everglades? I mean, think of the poor alligators that would have to eat their rotten fucking flesh.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997541)

Poisoning alligators isn't very nice....

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (3, Funny)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about a year and a half ago | (#42998251)

The real problem is the possibility that they would end up nourishing the invasive pythons that plague the Everglades, further disrupting that delicate ecosystem.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997151)

Well, you've got their address.

Now would be a fantastic time to pay them a visit.

You know what we do to spammers.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (3, Informative)

Frosty Piss (770223) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997179)

1760 Sundance Drive
St. Cloud, Florida 32771

http://goo.gl/maps/9P4BX [goo.gl]

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997243)

1760 Sundance Drive
St. Cloud, Florida 32771

http://goo.gl/maps/9P4BX [goo.gl]

Looks like an easy target for a Predator drone ...

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (2, Interesting)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997377)

Too quick, too painless. People like this need to suffer, death isn't a sufficient deterrent. If your life sucked as badly as theirs, you may even welcome it. The only way to discourage this form of bottom feeding is suffering, lots and lots of suffering. Letting them live, visibly scarred, and in full view of the public may demonstrate that while we will dispose of murderers and rapists, trolls will live as a warning to others in what may as well be an eternity of torment.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (4, Funny)

plover (150551) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997941)

tl;dr - "To the pain."

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997945)

Good news everyone! It is near Alligator Lake!

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (5, Funny)

WWJohnBrowningDo (2792397) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997261)

You know what we do to spammers.

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (-1, Troll)

paiute (550198) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997305)

You know what we do to spammers.

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

a new Christian relationship

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997399)

Yeah, because repeated aggravated rape is so a synonym for justice. I imagine that Browning fellow you're so fond of would do something more merciful, like shooting them.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (4, Insightful)

Mitreya (579078) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997499)

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

In a perfect world, pervasive rape in jail will not be subject of gleeful jokes (it'd be funny if it weren't a common issue). I would like to see spammers go to jail too, but not like this.

Even better, maybe we can fine spammers for "whatever the made + X%" and ban them from using computers for a while. This way they can work off their debt to society with some manual labor - outside of jail would be fine too.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997681)

In a perfect world, pervasive rape in jail will not be subject of gleeful jokes (it'd be funny if it weren't a common issue).

Rape in jail would lead to a perfect world. The best way to right wrongs is through penetration. If you don't create a legal framework for it like prisons, then you end up having to rely on masked vigilantes to serve out justice.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (1, Flamebait)

Gr8Apes (679165) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997713)

Perhaps automatic castration for all prisoners found raping anyone? Sounds justified, and might solve that high testosterone level aggression issue at the same time.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (5, Insightful)

Nidi62 (1525137) | about a year and a half ago | (#42998491)

In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

In a perfect world, pervasive rape in jail will not be subject of gleeful jokes (it'd be funny if it weren't a common issue). I would like to see spammers go to jail too, but not like this.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need prisons, because people would actually obey society's laws and respect the property, dignity, and person of other people.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (5, Funny)

msauve (701917) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997917)

"In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell"...

with a telephone which rings randomly, but at least once an hour, for their entire multi-year term. Anytime they fail to answer the phone, their prison term is extended by a month.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998335)

That sounds like karmic justice to me.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (4, Interesting)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997167)

Kind of extreme.......well, maybe not. My father is elderly and it's like he's under assault by these low life scum. There are so many organizations that live off of these kind of scams. I'd like to see drastic action taken.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997871)

No, extreme is lighting their legs on fire while pumping them full of drugs to suppress the brains natural shock mechanisms. Death is too good for these non-people/non-human ass hats. No one learns while being dead, only extreme agony for days or weeks can do that.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (1)

slick7 (1703596) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997931)

Kind of extreme.......well, maybe not. My father is elderly and it's like he's under assault by these low life scum. There are so many organizations that live off of these kind of scams. I'd like to see drastic action taken.

If it wasn't for the greedy banksters and their bought dog, in the back pocket politicians as well as all the incompetent bureaucratic minions whose only joy is making others miserable, this would be a really nice place. Then I could stop praying to the deity who would listen and erase this piss-ant planet once and for all.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (2)

gmack (197796) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997221)

The magic words are "I have power of attorney" (even if it's not true) once they think that the person they are calling cannot legally agree to anything they usually back off. They don't respect the law, their only worry is if they get payed or not.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (1)

gtall (79522) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997859)

Actually, what you want is "Durable Power of Attorney".

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (4, Informative)

msauve (701917) | about a year and a half ago | (#42998447)

You're assuming they have some sort of internal "do not call" list. They don't.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997235)

Agree. But torture them first.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (1)

eksith (2776419) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997291)

That's horrible. And it's well within their MO; they always target the infirm and the weakest first since they're more likely to fall pray to this. Modern day vultures

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (1)

Lee_Dailey (622542) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997393)

howdy y'all,

this is my fave way that telemarketers are dealt with. well, it's science fiction, but the idea is _delightful_! [*grin*] take a look at the 3rd paragraph here ...
Sluggy Freelance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggy_Freelance#Other_guest_strips_and_crossovers [wikipedia.org]
"Also, the first two novels of Ringo's distant-future Council Wars series have appearances by an irascible, treacherous, switchblade-toting, telemarketer-hating AI in a rabbit-shaped body—created by a long-dead fan of an unnamed 20th-century webcomic."

yes, kill them all. slowly if possible. with lots of screams, recorded and published on the internet for all to enjoy.

take care,
lee

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (2)

smartin (942) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997533)

I'm sorry to say that while the Do No Call List seemed to work well for several years it is now completely being ignored. I guess the telespammers realized that it had no teeth. I really hope that the FCC or who ever runs it takes a company like this and makes a serious fucking example of them.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998469)

That, and the Fair Debt Collections Act are unenforceable in the days of IP telephony. A company can have no presence on US soil but still ring millions of phones. In fact, it is trivial for the phones to ring with any random number.

I remember dreading the time when the average college goob found the telnet port 25 command ages ago... only a matter of time before the offshore boiler rooms start calling with any random number out there.

Re:Break Their Legs and Put Them in the Everglades (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998057)

Americans who care about the elderly should call their congresscritters and tell them not to implement chained CPI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Chained_Consumer_Price_Index

Greetings friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997137)

Do you wish to look as happy as me? Well, you've got the power inside you right now. So, use it, and send one dollar to Happy Dude, 742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield. Don't delay, eternal happiness is just a dollar away.

Re:Greetings friend (1)

beamdriver (554241) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997195)

I'd be happier with the dollar.

Re:Greetings friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997295)

Good Day Mr. Coward,

I am George Smith of Xanphia, New Georgia. My company would like to help you expand your happy business to our country's new exclusive economic development zone. Our industrial/business incubator is currently experiencing explosive growth. We have a growing middle class workforce for whom happiness will be in very high demand. Don't miss out on this opportunity to grow your customer base! All it takes is a monthly renewable business licence, which can be issued without delay, for the modest discounted price of TWO dollars. Don't delay, business success is just TWO dollars away.

graciously yours,
George Smith

Re:Greetings friend (4, Funny)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997651)

Hello, this is Homer Simpson, a.k.a. Happy Dude. The court has ordered
me to call every person in town to apologize for my telemarketing scam.
I'm sorry. If you can find it in your heart to forgive me, send one
dollar to Sorry Dude, 742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield. You have the
power.

FFS (4, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997149)

Why is it that the attack-dog AGs of the world are ready to go when somebody runs wget contrary to a site's terms of service; but people like this are allowed to operate unchecked?

Re:FFS (5, Interesting)

PhamNguyen (2695929) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997199)

I would guess that it relates to a certain way of thinking about the world, where everything an individual does on their own is a criminal matter, and everything a person does for a company is a civil matter.

It probably also relates to the "just doing my job" mentality where something becomes less morally objectionable merely because you're doing it as part of a job.

Re:FFS (1)

eudas (192703) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997639)

Not to Godwin the thread or anything, but "I was just following orders" didn't work well as a defense at the Nuremberg trials. Just sayin'.

Re:FFS (1)

PlusFiveTroll (754249) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997997)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials [wikipedia.org]

Being that only 23 of the god knows how many soldiers Germany had, I'd say "I was just following orders" worked OK for the survivors.

Re:FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998007)

This is America we are talking about, not Germany. See, we can get away with shit like that.

Re:FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997653)

It probably also relates to the "just doing my job" mentality where something becomes less morally objectionable merely because you're doing it as part of a job.

In my mind, it is the exact opposite of that.

Re:FFS (1)

cats-paw (34890) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997751)

just following orders has long been the refuge of scoundels.

Re:FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997207)

Why is it that the attack-dog AGs of the world are ready to go when somebody runs wget contrary to a site's terms of service; but people like this are allowed to operate unchecked?

If you thought a bit about exactly WHO the masters of the AGS are,
you wouldn't need to ask your question.

The US government is run for the benefit of corporations, not for the benefit
of citizens. And the AGs could care less about some poor prole who
is being harassed by some robocall scum.

Re:FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997231)

(Guy who doesn't know the difference between a state Attorney General and a federal prosecutor)

Re:FFS (1)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997333)

Because prosecuting this crime does not attract big money political campaign donors.

Re:FFS (5, Interesting)

Tom (822) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997407)

They do not scam large corporations with deep pockets.

Basically, a good scammer knows to not scam marks that can cause him trouble. You can scam a million people with no resources to fight you and be fine. But go against one mark who does have the resources and you're toast.

Humans might be the top of the food chain in the animal kingdom, but we are the bottom of the food chain in the society we have built. Corporations, criminals, politicians - every parasite in existence preys upon the common citizen first and foremost, because we are the easy targets.

Re:FFS (1)

jcr (53032) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997425)

My guess is the spammers pay bribes.

-jcr

Re:FFS (1)

guttentag (313541) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997765)

Why is it that the attack-dog AGs of the world are ready to go when somebody runs wget contrary to a site's terms of service; but people like this are allowed to operate unchecked?

Maybe it's because they're supposed to be using cURL? Attorneys General have a tendency to get wrapped up in political nonsense.

[ducks]

Re:FFS (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997847)

Apparently you've never been to Florida. It's a haven for the elderly, the mentally incompetent and criminals fleeing cold weather and competent consumer protection agencies in other states. That's a reason the tea-party is so successful there. Everyone else goes back home when their vaction is over.

Re:FFS (4, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997873)

Why is it that the attack-dog AGs of the world are ready to go when somebody runs wget contrary to a site's terms of service; but people like this are allowed to operate unchecked?

Well, when Florida lumps their "Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services" into one agency, you really can't expect much from them except bullshit.

Re:FFS (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998229)

I've noticed that most of these scammers live in Florida. E-mail spammers, fax spammers, telephone robocallers, always seem to trace to Florida. I'm starting to suspect it's an industry. Why would the AG stop something that's bringing jobs and money to Florida? I wouldn't be surprised if they specifically avoid harassing people in Florida.

Based in Florida (4, Interesting)

Huntr (951770) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997183)

To the absolute surprise of no one.

I think fraud is simply in Florida's DNA. I mean, what is Florida in the early to mid 20th century, if not "buying swampland for cheap?" Now, it's the height of US insurance fraud, medicare fraud, mortgage fraud, and identity theft, in addition to the drug smuggling and human trafficking that comes along with major ports of entry into the U.S. It's a crazy, crazy place and reality is far removed from the Mickey Mouse and orange juice that Discover Florida is selling.

And before you blow me up, know that I say all this as a long-time Florida resident...

Re:Based in Florida (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997309)

well, as a nature nut, I'm quite happy with the 40 odd acres swampland I got for cheap.

The rest of it - dead-nuts-on.

Re:Based in Florida (4, Interesting)

Anubis IV (1279820) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997383)

You've identified one form of selection while missing the even more obvious one: Florida, south Florida in particular, is retirement central. As such, is it any surprise that Florida is a location where this sort of thing is happening, given that the elderly tend to be most susceptible to it and the elderly tend to migrate to Florida for retirement? That fact alone would account for the medicare fraud, mortgage fraud, and identity theft that you cited.

Why not base in California? Or Texas? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997583)

That's true but we're talking about telco - they could be anywhere if they wanted to scam old poeple. Why are they in Florida instead of say California? Or Texas? Or Massachusetts? Could it be that Florida law enforcement is lax?

Re:Why not base in California? Or Texas? (1)

feenberg (201582) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997893)

I don't know if it is still true, but in years past the Florida AG had a reputation for ignoring scams where the victim was out of state.

Re:Based in Florida (1)

Huntr (951770) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997813)

That's definitely a factor. But, it's not like retired folks are the only victims, nor are they the only immigrants. I think it's also influenced by the large population living of poor people, people for whom English is a second language, and the fact that so many Floridians are simply from elsewhere and perhaps don't fully understand local rules and regulations.

Forgot to mention the prescription drug fraud earlier, too. Oxycontin smuggling in to Appalachia is pretty much because of Florida and our foot-dragging on the prescription drug database these days.

Re:Based in Florida (1)

Animats (122034) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997463)

I think fraud is simply in Florida's DNA.

South Florida, definitely. It's amazing how many scams come from South Florida. There are whole classes of fraud from there not seen much elsewhere. Timeshare-sales fraud [fbi.gov] , phony DMV fraud, and phony tax-preparer fraud [forbes.com] are examples.

In terms of dollar volume, though, lower Manhattan is way ahead. The South Floriday operators tend to be rather low rent.

Re:Based in Florida (2)

Nimey (114278) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997507)

You forgot that Scientology has a major base in Florida.

Re:Based in Florida (1)

Jaysyn (203771) | about a year and a half ago | (#42998041)

To the absolute surprise of no one.

I think fraud is simply in Florida's DNA. I mean, what is Florida in the early to mid 20th century, if not "buying swampland for cheap?" Now, it's the height of US insurance fraud, medicare fraud, mortgage fraud, and identity theft, in addition to the drug smuggling and human trafficking that comes along with major ports of entry into the U.S. It's a crazy, crazy place and reality is far removed from the Mickey Mouse and orange juice that Discover Florida is selling.

And before you blow me up, know that I say all this as a long-time Florida resident...

We even have a convicted fraudster as Governor!

(also lifelong FL resident)

Re:Based in Florida (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998133)

Don't forget electoral fraud, i.e. dubya twice

Follow the wires (4, Interesting)

PPH (736903) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997225)

but the investigator went to 1760 Sundance Drive, St. Cloud, which turned out to be a residence, and gave up.

But the telco has to know where they are sending these calls. Either a landline, digital service or IP address. Either give it up to the authorities or become a co-defendant in the fraud case.

You download one stinkin' Lady Gaga song and they can find you. Why not now?

Re:Follow the wires (0)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997379)

As pessimistic as this sounds, if you are able to follow the trail, you will find a governer/senator/some high ranking official connected to it

Re:Follow the wires (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997633)

But the telco has to know where they are sending these calls. Either a landline, digital service or IP address. Either give it up to the authorities or become a co-defendant in the fraud case.

The telcos make a killing with these kinds of customers, and wont do anything more than their corporate lawyer says they absolutely have to do not to be held accountable.

And, if your telco (the one of the customer that gets called) sees the number 202-456-1111 coming in over an interconnection link, they simply cannot tell you where exactly the caller came from (assuming the white house does not make Robocalls), so basically they have to backtrace the whole chain, from interconnection to interconnection, and if just one telco in the chain does not cooperate or is outside the US, you're out of luck.

The last resort would be ALL provider to have search for an OUTGOING call to the customers number to find the real caller. This is REAL work, because you are looking for a needle (the call) in a haystack, with tousands of haystacks (the telcos). And thats assuming, the call even originates inside the US.

You download one stinkin' Lady Gaga song and they can find you. Why not now?

Because a complete, working TCP connection is not spoofable. If you want the packet with the Lady Gaga song to reach you, you have to use your real IP adress. With the phone system, the callerid is worth about the same as a sender emailadress...

Re:Follow the wires (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998025)

Because a complete, working TCP connection is not spoofable. If you want the packet with the Lady Gaga song to reach you, you have to use your real IP adress. With the phone system, the callerid is worth about the same as a sender emailadress...

Tor...

Re:Follow the wires (1)

CrashandDie (1114135) | about a year and a half ago | (#42998367)

Their address is in the cloud! How do expect them to be traced?

Shameful (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997241)

It looks as though things in the US are the same as over here in little Britain: it's absolutely impossible to defraud people unless you provide a fake name and address.

Wouldn't it be nice if at least one of the two countries could manage to pay somebody a living wage to actually check company registrations before they're allowed to trade at all, and at reasonably frequent but irregular intervals afterwards? Maybe between the two we could manage it? I think we've got about sixpence available from the taxpayer, how about you guys?

All too much to hope for, I suppose. What fuckups we are.

Robocall them back (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997247)

As they publish a new number just hammer their numbers with incoming calls. If they have a 1800 then they will be paying per minute for the call.

Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (4, Interesting)

david.emery (127135) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997265)

I sent my Senator (Mark Warner (D) Virginia), who sits on the relevant committee, a constituent request asking if anything ever happened as a result of filing "Do Not Call" violations. They sent me a Privacy Act form (so they could query the registry using my personal data.)

And that was the end of it. I never heard back.

On a related note, I think the FCC should make Caller ID both required and un-forgeable. (An individual could still choose to not have his Caller ID revealed, and that would be indicated on your Caller ID display.)

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (5, Informative)

MBCook (132727) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997369)

The Do Not Call list works very well for what it was intended to do. It stops legal calls from businesses you have no association with. Do you remember the "would you like to change long distance providers" calls? What if Dish Network could call you every week to ask you if you wanted to switch off cable?

The problem is that the DNC list does *nothing* to stop the following groups:

  • Political organizations - law doesn't apply
  • Charity solicitation - law doesn't apply
  • Surveys - law doesn't apply
  • Scams - they're already breaking the law

Congress chose to allow the first 3 for their own benefit, and no law can stop the fourth, only really tough enforcement and holding phone companies accountable.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997457)

i'm all for drone strikes if they're used to enforce Do Not Call, particularly on the scammers.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998209)

The Do Not Call list works very well for what it was intended to do. It stops legal calls from businesses you have no association with. Do you remember the "would you like to change long distance providers" calls? What if Dish Network could call you every week to ask you if you wanted to switch off cable?

The problem is that the DNC list does *nothing* to stop the following groups:

  • Political organizations - law doesn't apply
  • Charity solicitation - law doesn't apply
  • Surveys - law doesn't apply
  • Scams - they're already breaking the law

Congress chose to allow the first 3 for their own benefit, and no law can stop the fourth, only really tough enforcement and holding phone companies accountable.

The reason why you dont get calls asking if you want to change long distance providers is because there is no money in that.

Go and get a phone from verizon or any cell carrier really and you get to make all the calls you want long distance or not. The concept of long distance calls is dead. So why exactly would people try to sell it to you if they cant make any money? You do realize this is 2013 right and not 1983?

They simply have been replaced with other kinds of calls doing the exact same thing.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997409)

"On a related note, I think the FCC should make Caller ID both required and un-forgeable. (An individual could still choose to not have his Caller ID revealed, and that would be indicated on your Caller ID display.)"

That is how it works in the SS7 layer of the telephony network. But the FCC is only a local authority, it doesn't have the power to enforce this on international telcos, but there is almost no doubt all counterparts of the FCC have rules for operators to identify the caller beyond doubt.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997731)

If a call is coming from overseas, it should be clear from the caller ID. There is no reason that most of us should get international calls from numbers we don't recognize.

dom

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997469)

My Senator is of those: "No government interference", "No regulations or taxes on corporations because it kills business", he probably plays golf with the conspirators.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997505)

I think the FCC should make Caller ID both required and un-forgeable.

The first would be a good idea (force callcenter to present a correct callerid, with SEVERE punishment if they violate that law, so severe that they are permanently out of business if they get caugt once, not the few thousand bucks like today), the second is a technical impossibility. The way callerid works, if you get a callerid as verified into the pstn, ANYWHERE worldwide, there is no way to detect if it has been faked. So, if there is just ONE bad egg that gives the callcenter-scumm an unrestricted PRI, the whole CallerID is compromised, as it factually is.

It's like asking to make UDP packages unspoofable, YOUR provider might be able and willing to filter YOUR link so you can only use your assigned ip, but what about the rest of the world...

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997757)

On a related note, I think the FCC should make Caller ID both required and un-forgeable. (An individual could still choose to not have his Caller ID revealed, and that would be indicated on your Caller ID display.)

We can have unforgeable caller ID now, by doing it ourselves. The technology has existed for more than 20 years. Let's implement PGP in telephones and have key-signing parties like we did in the good old days.

Re:Effectiveness of "Do Not Call"? (2)

maztuhblastah (745586) | about a year and a half ago | (#42998015)

On a related note, I think the FCC should make Caller ID both required and un-forgeable. (An individual could still choose to not have his Caller ID revealed, and that would be indicated on your Caller ID display.)

Or just nix it, use ANI, and make sure that ANI data's sent for all calls.

Your government $$$ (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997289)

Means nothing for you.

If someone hacks something the government cares about then they manage to find that person.

Call around a couple of times and threaten schools and/or officials and they can find you pretty quickly.

A Random company robo dials 1/2 of the continental fucking U.S. and all of a sudden these fuckers can't seem to figure out where they are coming from or what the hell can be done about it.

Re:Your government $$$ (1)

Cali Thalen (627449) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997403)

If someone hacks something the government cares about then they manage to find that person.

Random, usually broke, teenager, can't fight back, so easy to get a win. Also, national security, national response.

Call around a couple of times and threaten schools and/or officials and they can find you pretty quickly.

Criminal, with little hope of skirting that particular law, easy to get an arrest and conviction. Little work, also people's lives are being directly threatened and/or 'think of the children' :P

A Random company robo dials 1/2 of the continental fucking U.S. and all of a sudden these fuckers can't seem to figure out where they are coming from or what the hell can be done about it.

Potentially vague civil law, with a defendant that probably has lawyers and enough money to get more. Not much payback in political or financial capital, so no one who cares about those things will make the effort.

Seriously, great examples of 'the path of least resistance' that most government-types (particularly the elected kind) follow.

Not just in Florida (1)

El_Oscuro (1022477) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997429)

I got 2 of these, both from a Washington state area code. Of course the caller ID could be fake...

Re:Not just in Florida (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997787)

I got called twice as well about some Yaz settlement. I hit ignore for the first call, but less than 20 seconds later the 2nd call came. I listened long enough to hear what it was then hung up.

Checked the web and the reports of that number all existed on the same date at around the same time as my call, so I tried calling back just to see.. first call a fast busy signal. The second call a message about "If you received a call from this number, our number is being spoofed and it's currently being investigated." and to leave a message with any detailed information you could provide. (I just hit up the FCC website and filled out the forms there instead)

Too much money .... and too little risk. (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997431)

There is a lot of money in violating the telemarketing rules. One illegal voice broadcaster was paid over $6 million by just one customer in only 10 months [1]. Large fines against violators are often uncollectible and ignored by scofflaws [2]. Violators often engage in money laundering and brag about their “bulletproof” broadcasting facilities that can’t be traced [3]. I personally received over 300 prerecorded telemarketing calls in some years, and I was able to track down the people behind only a tiny fraction of those calls, despite my concerted efforts in recording calls, filing lawsuits, subpoenaing phone company records, and hundreds of hours of my own time. Anyone who tries to find the source of these illegal calls will find the vast majority lead back to shadowy, untraceable names such as Transfers Argentina, Asia Pacific Telecom, TeleEurope, and Castle Rock Capital Management. Trying to track down a text message spammer is a similar exercise in futility.

        Many studies have show that massive penalties don't work as a deterrent because perpetrators never plan to get caught. What does work is increasing the likelihood of getting caught.

[1] See declaration of Roberto C. Menjivar at 30 (totaling the amount paid to Voice Touch by National Auto Warranty during a 10 month period at $6,013,500). Document 42 in FTC v. Network Foundations, LLC., No. 1:09-cv-02929 (N.D. Ill. 2009).

[2] See Order of Forfeiture, File No. EB-02-TC-120 (released Jan. 5, 2004) (finding Fax.com liable for the maximum fine of $11,000 for each of the 489 fax violations, for a total fine of $5,379,000).

[3] Menjivar decl. at 20–22.

Re:Too much money .... and too little risk. (1)

Aardpig (622459) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997547)

MFW slashdot post with references cited.

Re:Too much money .... and too little risk. (1)

flimflammer (956759) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997809)

And AC to boot. The hell just happened?

Re:Too much money .... and too little risk. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998159)

It seems as though Wikipedia has acquired sentience.

Re:Too much money .... and too little risk. (4, Interesting)

Attila Dimedici (1036002) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997823)

I have found a way that gets me off of these lists. All of the automated calls, sooner or later, connect you to someone whose job it is to take down your information so that they can get your money. I always indicate that I am interested. Then when I start talking to someone, I ask questions indicating that I am interested but don't quite understand what they are offering. If I have time, I keep them on the line as long as possible before telling them I think they are the scum of the earth for being involved with such a scam. If I don't at least have time to talk to a real person, I don't answer the phone. It's interesting that after I talk to someone, it is month's before they call me again. A live person costs them money. They don't like it when you talk to a live person and don't "buy".

Where's the Jennifer Lawrence picture thread?!? (0, Flamebait)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997485)

Ok this is interesting but this is Slashdot, not some consumer forum for ripoff disasterbation hate-ons.

Re:Where's the Jennifer Lawrence picture thread?!? (0)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997513)

Seriously, people. If enough people thumbs-upping submissions is all it takes to make it to the front page, you're gonna end up a TMZ clone at some point.

You will suffer "topic wander drift", slowly pulling in non-nerds as the topics change, who will submit different things, getting to the front page, thus pulling in even less deviant, less nerdlike people. >:-(

Supply-side fraud (4, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997567)

All you dirty hippies who are calling for the heads of these "Second and Final Notice" folks must really hate free-market capitalism.

These are the Job Creators, after all. And anything that's done to stop them is regulation, which is a dirty word.

We need to just let the free market work and these problems will go away, right?

Blacklists work (5, Informative)

zwede (1478355) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997679)

On Android: Create a contact (I call it "Spam"). Click settings->More and add to reject list. Whenever you get a spam call, select "update existing contact", select "Spam" and no more calls from that number. For a home phone, use a VOIP provider (I use and can recommend Galaxy Voice). They should have a web page that lets you add numbers to a blacklist. Also select the "anonymous call rejection" feature which will block all calls where the caller id has been intentionally blocked. By doing the above it is very rare for me to receive a spam call.

Re:Blacklists work (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997817)

The call control app has a community blacklist. I'm thinking of buying it, but I rarely get spam as it is.

Re:Blacklists work (1)

EkriirkE (1075937) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997949)

I use google voice for everything, I don't think anyone knows my real #. I created a contact "Telemarketers" (photo is of a pile of poo) that are marked as "Disconnected" whcih means anyone in that group gets the "doo-dahh-dee. I'm sorry, but the number you have dialled is no longer in service. Please hang up or dial your operator" announcement on loop.

Re:Blacklists work (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998003)

on android: extreme call blocker - block 800* 866* 877* etc.

best money I ever spent

Re:Blacklists work (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998019)

On my phone I attempted to deal with one particular robocall (the one that starts with the fog horn sound...I never got past it to know what it is for). That same contact now has 10 different numbers in it. Never has the same one been used twice.

Re:Blacklists work (1)

Greyfox (87712) | about a year and a half ago | (#42998163)

I installed a whitelist app. If you're in my contacts, your call gets through. Otherwise, you go directly to voice mail. If it's important, I'll call back at my convenience. Most of the time, it's not.

The economics of this crap (3, Insightful)

spaceyhackerlady (462530) | about a year and a half ago | (#42997715)

The sad thing is that there are enough people buying this shit to keep the robocallers and spammers in business.

I routinely get robocalls wanting to reduce my credit card debt. A good trick, since I don't have any. I always wonder how the political polling people can possibly pretend their conclusions have any validity, since everybody hangs up on them.

And so on. A medium that used to be useful has been poisoned by abuse.

I view Do Not Call as intrinsically self-defeating. Like "opting out" of spam, it provides a list of known-good phone numbers. If the robocalls originate from offshore, there is little the local authorities can do about it anyway.

...laura

The secret is... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42997777)

To find a way for it to be unprofiteable. Take away the money and telemarketers, robocallers and such will dissapear completely overnight.

But thats the real trick is how does the government make it so they cant profit? Just blocking them, raiding them, fining them and such wont do a bit of good because they will always find a loophole, some phrase they can say to negate the law and take one down another will arise. No you get rid this of this by making it unprofitable across the board.

We need more modern telephones (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998063)

We need more modern telephones. It shouldn't be that hard. When I get email on my computer, I have a spam filter that weeds out more than 90% of all the crap. I open my mail client, it connects to my ISP and sucks down mail. As its sucking, its automagically shoving stuff into the garbage can. I can browse, but basically all I have to do is click on empty trash, and its all gone. Now with the phone, I have no filter. I can screen calls with the answering machine, but it still rings. What I really want is a phone that has a list of filter numbers. When they call and I don't want to talk to them, the phone doesn't ring, just a light comes on the phone showing the phone is filtering a call, and 2 seconds later the phone automatically hangs up. If I pick it up, I can't hear them, and they can't hear me. When they call me the first time, I push a button on the phone to add them to the list. I can also add numbers to the filter myself. I understand that there are people who abuse the do not call list. The government also plays the 'unsolicited marketing game', and likewise, they consider charities to be 'fair game'. I want a phone that does what I want. It shouldn't be that hard.

Set Evil against Evil (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42998389)

Just make sure that these guys IP addresses are seen to be the ones seeding "Iron Man 3" and at least a dozen top 40 albums and watch real sharks at work.

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