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Kinect Can Detect Clenched Fist

timothy posted about a year and a half ago | from the if-face-red-then-assume-fist-clenched dept.

AI 65

mikejuk writes "Microsoft Research is currently having a Techfest at Redmond where it is showing off a lot of new work. The latest work on the Kinect uses the same sort of machine-learning approach to distinguish between an open hand and a clenched fist. Although there are no details, its general method was to use a large number of images of people's hands and supervised training to distinguish between open and closed hands. The learning algorithm is based on a forest of decision trees, which is the same general method used to implement the skeleton tracking. Being able to detect an open or closed hand might not seem to be much of an advance, and certainly not as good as a multi-gesture touch screen interface, but it is enough to allow the user interface to distinguish a "pick up" or "grip" gesture. So you can move the hands within an image, close both hands to grip the image points and move apart to zoom. You can't get the software at the moment, but it has been promised for the next version of the Kinect SDK for Windows along with the long awaited 3D scanner Kinect Fusion."

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FIST POST (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43105591)

DIRTY!!!

GTA (4, Funny)

meta-monkey (321000) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105593)

I hope the next Grand Theft Auto game is Kinect-enabled for pimpslapping.

A truly immersive interface (1)

Immerman (2627577) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106477)

What I don't get it why isn't there more noise about a wii remote-esque controller for the Xbox? Seems like that would complement the Kinect wonderfully, the one catches posture and absolute position, while the other catches the subtleties of acceleration and orientation of your hands and provides buttons for precision input. Throw in a VR helmet when the Occulus Rift hits the stores ad you'd have all the pieces to take the first steps into consumer-grade VR.

Re:A truly immersive interface (1)

triffid_98 (899609) | about a year and a half ago | (#43111331)

"I love the Power Glove. It's so bad"

Re:GTA (1)

DFurno2003 (739807) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106485)

Since when is Slashdot PC? Can't even say Bitchslapping anymore?

Re:GTA (1)

camperdave (969942) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106689)

Since when is Slashdot PC? Can't even say Bitchslapping anymore?

Slashdot has always been PC... in the sense that it is anti-Apple.

Re:GTA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107407)

Lol anti-apple. I think the only site more pro-apple is probably maclife.com.

Re:GTA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107815)

Translation: I sometimes see pro-Apple (or rather, not-anti-Apple) posts that aren't modded down to -5 on principle, and that makes me angry because I am an insecure little twat.

Re:GTA (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107119)

It's a bitchslap if you use your palm, it's a pimpslap if you use the back of your hand.

Potential applications (1)

The Mysterious Dr. X (1502541) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105603)

I get that this could be great for mimicking the mouse click/drag, or for interactive boxing games. But what about its law enforcement potential? How long until this is used to detect possible domestic violence?

Re:Potential applications (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105669)

You think most domestic violence is done by people who can afford a brand new console and peripherals?

If it ever was possible, people would just leave the room to do that sort of thing.

Re:Potential applications (1)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105837)

You think most domestic violence is done by people who can afford a brand new console and peripherals?

If it ever was possible, people would just leave the room to do that sort of thing.

Well, there have been several recent incidents involving violence by people who weren't allowed to play video games when they wanted to.

Reminds me a little bit of Fredrick Brown's story "The Little Black Bag"...

Re:Potential applications (2)

hedwards (940851) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106027)

Yeah, because it's only moneyless hillbillies that engage in spouse beating.

Re:Potential applications (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106225)

Rihanna called, she wants her kinect back from evidence.

Re:Potential applications (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107363)

wooosh.

Re:Potential applications (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106119)

Years ago, I had a black dude come in with his kids and ask me about xbox at my college job, he was asking release dates or something, and I told him you could find that on the internet... guess what he didn't have. My point is never underestimate people's distortions of priorities.

Re:Potential applications (1)

burning-toast (925667) | about a year and a half ago | (#43113049)

Years ago, I had a black dude come in with his kids and ask me about xbox at my college job, he was asking release dates or something, and I told him you could find that on the internet... guess what he didn't have. My point is never underestimate people's distortions of priorities.

Don't know if you realize that your statement comes off as having a secondary implication, but that same story works great without the skin color being mentioned:

Years ago, I had a dude come in with his kids and ask me about xbox at my college job, he was asking release dates or something, and I told him you could find that on the internet... guess what he didn't have. My point is never underestimate people's distortions of priorities.

If it was intentionally stated, you are a dick. If not I hope I helped.

- Toast

Re:Potential applications (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43105699)

Obamer would love to be able to have that level of spying capabity.

Re:Potential applications (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107715)

Don't kid yourself anon, so would any Rethuglican that got his job. Baby Bush is the one who started the whole spying on civilians thing. The only real difference between the parties is that one is focused on religion, and the other thinks maybe women and non-white people are entitled to the same dwindling rights that the rest of us have. They both love blowing people up and spying on them.

Re:Potential applications (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43108707)

Not long?

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mychen/publication/ChenEMBC08.pdf

Can it detect a middle finger? (4, Funny)

Kenja (541830) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105607)

Cause that would speed up a lot of forum conversations.

Re:Can it detect a middle finger? (2, Informative)

QilessQi (2044624) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105659)

There would be plenty of training data. Users of Microsoft systems employ that gesture frequently.

Re:Can it detect a middle finger? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106065)

There would be plenty of training data. Users of Microsoft systems employ that gesture frequently.

I don't have a Kinect, so if I want my 360 to know when I'm pissed off that it did something stupid I have to plug in a microphone so it can hear me say "Fuck you".

Re:Can it detect a middle finger? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106163)

There would be plenty of training data. Users of Microsoft systems employ that gesture frequently.

I don't have a Kinect, so if I want my 360 to know when I'm pissed off that it did something stupid I have to plug in a microphone so it can hear me say "Fuck you".

Your Xbox isn't sentient, you know. But even if it were, why don't you just throw the controller against the wall. That has always worked for me (and I recommend you keep superglue and plaster handy). There is no better feeling during a rage-quit than the sound of breaking plastic.

Re:Can it detect a middle finger? (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106295)

Your Xbox isn't sentient, you know. But even if it were, why don't you just throw the controller against the wall.

Because Xbox controllers are expensive and fragile. With the NES I could vent my anger by swinging the controller by the cord and bouncing it off the (lino-covered plywood) floor as hard as I could, and then I could go back to playing...

Re:Can it detect a middle finger? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43105727)

It doesn't detect it because it assumes it is a penis. Don't wave it around, because then the software will interpret it as a penis helicopter, which will get you a perma-ban on Xbox Live.

fingers (1)

hresult (902522) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105611)

Can it detect middle finger though? I show it to Kinect all the time, and it seems to be ignoring it.

We're getting closer... (5, Funny)

Antipater (2053064) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105655)

The dream of being able to punch someone through the internet took a step forward today.

Re:We're getting closer... (1)

alexgieg (948359) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105985)

The dream of being able to punch someone through the internet took a step forward today.

This is nothing. Now every sith lord out there will be able to force chocke through the Internet. Much more satisfying.

Re:We're getting closer... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106443)

KHHHHAAAAAAAAN!!!

Re:We're getting closer... (2)

DFurno2003 (739807) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106527)

The dream of getting a HJ through the internet took a step forward today.

Re:We're getting closer... (1)

Zalbik (308903) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106763)

Posting to undo moderation....

I wish I could punch the slashdot moderation developers through the internet....

Somebody +1 funny the parent please!

And yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43105749)

The best they can do is Dancing Slave Leia or Dancing Han Solo? Talk about a technology searching for a purpose.

A huge step forward for Kinect (2)

Graydyn Young (2835695) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105819)

The biggest problem with Kinect controls is the lack of gesturing. This results in users needing to hold their cursor over a control for a couple seconds in order to simulate a click or button press. For obvious reasons, this makes the whole control scheme brutally slow. Even worse was the solution used in Child of Eden, where the user need to push their hand forward, thus making the Kinect controls much more difficult than using a normal controller. Just this one gesture to function like a mouse click will greatly improve the user experience for all OS/menu controls and many games.

Microsoft demoed at E3 this two years ago (2)

YesIAmAScript (886271) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105821)

The did it at E3 2011 where Kinect Fun Labs was showed.

The guy demoing it waved his fists around and it tracked them. When he put fingers out on one hand he was able to draw lines on the screen, it saw the finger out.

In that case and this one too it was clear that this was so close to the limits of what Kinect can resolve that it wasn't going to be reliable in normal use. But it did work on stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jso9r6DI9E&t=3m20s [youtube.com]

MS claimed they would ship this, even named it "Kinect Finger Tracking". But it didn't ship yet. It's likely the current hardware just isn't reliable enough at it.

Re:Microsoft demoed at E3 this two years ago (2)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | about a year and a half ago | (#43107817)

The commercial Kinect cameras are 640x480. Even if that's decent for finger-level tracking close up, a method designed to measure the activities and placements of fingers close to the camera is not going to have enough data to work on hands further away.

That being said, it does appear that the demo in the video you linked has sufficient discriminatory power that a fist should be relatively easy—he's not exactly holding his hand right up to the lens.

Re:Microsoft demoed at E3 this two years ago (2)

Samantha Wright (1324923) | about a year and a half ago | (#43107845)

...and continuing on that point [slashdot.org] , now that I think about it, all that video shows is tracking the tip of a moving object. That's not really the full hand.

Cool but (1)

TheSkepticalOptimist (898384) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105887)

Do you still have to make a gun out of your hand and go "pew, pew" when you play FPS?

They are making money hand over fist! (1)

MmmmYah (1328361) | about a year and a half ago | (#43105889)

I heard the virtual porn industry suddenly took notice.. Kinect the dots..

- Jack Off All Trades

About to get removed in 3...2...1 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43105893)

Just like ALL the other "advances" they added to it.

Pretty sure Kinect was able to do this crap years ago before it came out in the gimped awful form we know now.

Here is hoping they do, the first game I will put up on Kinect is Punch Steve Ballmer in the back of the head.
Wait, the thing he speaks from is the back of his, right?

Chairs or GTFO! (1)

CajunArson (465943) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106017)

Unless it can detect chairs (mid-flight of course), then I don't see it being much use for Microsoft!

"Kinect Can Detect Clenched Fist" (3, Insightful)

John Hasler (414242) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106057)

So it knows when you are about to smash it?

Drone manufacturers should love it? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106069)

Such things have been speculated about as early as 2008 from what I can tell (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/07/wargames/)... I don't think it's actually the case quite frankly, it seems too far-fetched, but the kinds of science fiction that could be written about the idea -- an entertainment company batting advertisments about for their new video game technology, that can detect a closed fist, a concealed weapon, a facial expression that suggests aggression or a lie.

That same article linked to a picture from a British army TV advertisment in which a UAV was being piloted by a soldier...using an XBOX 360 controller. Now again, is MS hardware actually being used that way? Probably not -- but you know just by virtue of how sue-happy the U.S. is that Microsoft knew the controller would be on-screen, that its suggested use would be for piloting a drone...and they thought that, at the very least, it would be a good marketing opportunity? That's the kind of thing that makes most people say, "I wouldn't put anything past them."

Waste of resources (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106071)

Why does Microsoft need a team of researchers to distinguish this? An open hand is what I slap them with, and a clenched fist is what I punch them with.

Re$pect for M$ (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106173)

Kinect is the only thing Microsoft did that impressed me. That and the Metro UI, even if it fell flat, at least is was not a copy from Apple.

Can it read (4, Insightful)

NEDHead (1651195) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106301)

ASL? That might be useful

Re:Can it read (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43111955)

KinectBot: Nice to meet you, NEDHead!
KinectBot: I'm 18/F/$(lookup-city NEDHead)!
KinectBot: How about you?

Careful. (1)

Doug Otto (2821601) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106311)

Your XBox can see you masturbating.

I wonder what other finger gestures it can detect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106561)

I've got one that I tend to use a lot for microsoft products.

Kinect Fusion is already availabe (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43106587)

" long awaited 3D scanner Kinect Fusion"

There are already several open Source implementations in the PCL (pointclouds.org/) so there is no need to wait for Microsoft
to publish an SDK...

Big whoop: Leap Motion can detect a pencil point (1)

DaTrueDave (992134) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106657)

https://www.leapmotion.com/ [leapmotion.com]

And they just announced that they're shipping in May!

If you haven't heard of Leap Motion, check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_d6KuiuteIA [youtube.com]

Once you have that type of precision, I would imagine "learning" what a fist is wouldn't be quite as difficult...

Re:Big whoop: Leap Motion can detect a pencil poin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107641)

But they don't provide users with the point cloud yet, so it is currently impossible to detect a fist with leap so far.
The sensing range of the leap is also much smaller. The Kinect has a range of several meters, the Leap of around 80cm.
So it's not fair to compare their accuracy without mentioning the restrictions.

Finally (1)

operagost (62405) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106811)

We can finally actually punch someone in the face over the internet!

Clenched Fist Activity (1)

ThatsNotPudding (1045640) | about a year and a half ago | (#43106873)

Next up; determining if that clenched fist is wrapped around something and is moving back and forth along the same mainly vertical path.

that's ridiculous (0)

slashmydots (2189826) | about a year and a half ago | (#43107309)

The Kinect can't even tell the difference between me, my roommate, and our couch and it's lucky if it can find my hands. I'm sure under absolutely perfect conditions with proper surroundings inside a subterranean bunker, it could detect a clenched first 10% of the time. In reality, you'd need a 200x more accurate Leap Motion system to do that. Btw, google that. Their website has an epic video.

WTF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107343)

I was part of a coding session, and in 12 hours we came close to doing this with the kinect on Ubuntu without machine learning. We eventually settled for finger stretched out since it worked better and we were on a time limit. Given a week and machine learning, we could have done this in a week.

Turn off kinect before watching porn on your Xbox. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43107825)

Or maybe masturbation will now have achievements and a leader board on Live.

can they bring that to Windows 8? (1)

swschrad (312009) | about a year and a half ago | (#43108125)

when, if the webcam sees a clenched fist and angry, set face, it reverts to Windows XP???

Why Kinect? (1)

qbitslayer (2567421) | about a year and a half ago | (#43108247)

What is so special about recognizing a fist that requires Kinect? A cheap camera with some visual recognition software can do the same and probably better and quicker. Just saying.

Awesome! (1)

elabs (2539572) | about a year and a half ago | (#43108633)

It's not easy to detect fingers at a distance with that type of resolution. I hear the Kinect 2 will have a higher resolution (made possibly by the greater bandwidth of USB 3.0) and lower latency. Kinect continues to rock!

Going to hell for this (1)

Just Some Guy (3352) | about a year and a half ago | (#43109625)

I'm imagining the DLC for "Rock Band featuring Rihanna".

Fist of Comedy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43111735)

Yeah, but can it detect the Fist of Comedy?

Shout out to the Terry, Bill & Steve show.

Hummmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43113609)

And just what might be clinched in the fist as it moves up-down-up-down very rapidly ?

XD

Release the Kraken !

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