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Is Gaming Too Much Skin, Not Enough Good Clean Fun?

timothy posted more than 13 years ago | from the but-isn't-too-much-skin-fun? dept.

Games 339

legLess writes: "Salon is carrying a thought-provoking article saying that 'The soft-porn fixation embarrassingly displayed at E3 is dooming the gaming industry to the nerd-geek ghetto.' It says that the gaming industry, in terms of sales and audience, is much closer to porn than Hollywood. Some great quotes ('[GOD] CEO Mike Wilson decided that preeminence should also involve a lot of cleavage and dwarfs'), and interesting thoughts ('Games should be treated as art, but they are becoming more and more like hamburger')."

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339 comments

Makes Perfect Sense (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#204530)

1. Sex = $ 2. Games = $ 3. Sex + Games = $$$$$$ Why not?

Re:Do girls buy games? Do girls rent porno? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#204531)

Yessireeee Bob, yes to both. 700 million porno rentals last year, half by women. More money is spent on "adult" movie rentals than is spent on the NFL, NBA, and major league baseball combined. And that includes all the tshirts, caps, and other logo junk the pro leagues sell. If you include porno purchases online, you can toss all forms of auto racing onto the other side, and porn is still much more popular. You can even throw all the movie theater tickets and R or less movie rentals onto the other side, and porn still outsells all of it combined.

Sex sells, and especially to women.

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#204532)

nice article. wanna fuck?

Re:Porn and games are similar. (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#204541)

Actually most women don't "view" porno...

They read it.

Big difference.

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

benc (573) | more than 13 years ago | (#204547)

I think you should make it a condition that those you are interested in don't rough you up during sex, rather than not play computer games or use pr0n.

I do think it's kinda icky that guys can get angry-horny from playing Quake III and the like... It makes some of the in-game banter, frankly, pretty creepy.

What no one has mentioned (2)

MichaelKVance (1663) | more than 13 years ago | (#204554)

Is that there were *far* fewer booth babes this year compared to last year. Except for the increasingly ghetto-ized world of hardcore FPS people (ie, the Dallas/Austin crews), I don't think there was terribly much skin happening at all. What skin there was looked as painfully juvenile as one would expect.

m.

Puritan rhetoric, hypocritical one on top of it (1)

Nicolas MONNET (4727) | more than 13 years ago | (#204559)

No matter how hard game designers would try, they'd never get as far as your *average* Hollywood production.

--

Re:Porn and games are similar. (2)

Nicolas MONNET (4727) | more than 13 years ago | (#204562)

Let me translate for you what she really means:

"I'd LOVE to be indepedent and self-sufficient ... however I'm just a dumb bitch who reads trash women magazines, and since I can't do things by myself, I live through my boyfriends, I blame them for what I can't accomplish myself, it's never my fault, it's always boys', in other words ...

I'M A VICTIM!!!!!!"

I wish I was trolling, unfortunately that's really what I think.

--

Re:It's embarassing (2)

Nicolas MONNET (4727) | more than 13 years ago | (#204563)

"As if Lara Croft isn't enough, try reading a gaming magazine in public" It's not the magazines or the ads that are a problem; it's your lack of balls and pride that prevents you from standing up against the stupid moralization of your environment.

--

Re:Wrong! (1)

Glytch (4881) | more than 13 years ago | (#204565)

Could you repeat that in english, please?

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (1)

dwdyer (5238) | more than 13 years ago | (#204567)

Well, yeah. It's irrational, but the # of folks that will gripe about violence in games is smaller than the # that will gripe about "soft-porn" in video games. Sex is bad, violence is iffy.

I suspect the "average family" isn't concerned about fantasy violence nearly as much as they're concerned about fantasy sex, and I'm not talking only about parents.

Imagine Joe Q. Hacker, 35, married. Imagine now that he's playing Quake when the wife walks in. Imagine the range of reactions.

Now imagine that the game he was playing was not Quake, but in fact (the hypothetical) 3D photo-realistic 1st person "shooter", "Leisure Suit Larry, Buttman, and Max Hardcore's European Adventure" (Sierra: please don't sue me!), Now imagine the range of reactions.

He's suprised by this? (3)

landley (9786) | more than 13 years ago | (#204571)

This hasn't changed in 20 years. Anybody remember Sierra Online's "Softporn"?

People who invent ways to escape reality, who are fixed enough on their own fantasies that they can create good believable games, tend not to have the greatest social skills. The most dedicated game fans aren't exactly out there polishing their schmoozing muscles either.

The computer industry is 90% male. Gaming (paper and dice) is 90% male. The primary customer base for the intersection of gaming and computers is teenage boys. Everything from cars to cell phones have "spokesmodels" sitting on them in magazine ads.

As for the computer industry, Comdex IS held in las vegas every year. (Las vegas is like the movie "showgirls", only with more plot and the boring bits don't get as much screen time.)

The article DOES have some decent points it could have made, like cross-over games (from Ms. Pac-man to The Sims), or the general failure of attempts to make "girl-centric" computer games (although not universial, the "barbie" line just about breaks even, I'm told.)

But it doesn't make them, I only know about them from other sources. The author of this article came across as a pedanitc moralist shocked by something he just noticed, and predicting dire things if his viewpoint isn't universally imposed immediately. (Clue: the game industry IS making more money than hollywood. Right now. This has been true since the 80's...)

Sigh...

Rob

Do girls buy games? (1)

geekd (14774) | more than 13 years ago | (#204577)

I guess the real question is:

Do girls buy games on anywhere near the volume boys do?

I would atrribute the success of The Sims to a "crossover" appeal, but how many games do girls really buy?

If the game buying public is 80 or 90% teen male, then hey, go for the boobies. If not, clean up your act.

Seems fairly simple to me.

Where's the entertainment? (2)

anomaly (15035) | more than 13 years ago | (#204580)

I have been a game player for a very long time. I enjoy computer games quite a bit.

I should say that I have played Quake, SOF, and EliteForce recently.

I also have played lots of other games. I love the realism and beauty in the computer graphics, and am constantly mazed at the advances in technology.

Here's where I get stuck: Why can't there be more games like SimCityClassic where there's not gross violence and certainly no sexuality?

Why must the games we play appeal to the more prurient parts of our lives? Being exposed to graphic violence is damaging, and the reason that I play SOF with low violence, and limit the amount of time I spend letting that feed my brain.

Certainly being exposed to pornography has an effect on people, too. It objectifies women, and lowers the value that we place on them as individuals.

I'm all for having games produced that don't glorify sex and violence, and want to be able to play them.

Please, produce more wholesome games, and you'll sell more copies!

The movie industry refuses to produce very many qholesome movies, even though they know that the ones generating the most revenue are never "R" rated. Why is that?

Regards,
Anomaly

PS - God loves you and longs for relationship with you. If you would like to know more about this, please email me at tom_cooper at bigfoot dot com.

Re:Oh No! Not the porn industry! (3)

Frijoles (16015) | more than 13 years ago | (#204582)

So, instead of being like the $6 billion a year hollywood film industry, it will be more like the $10 billion a year (and extremely profitable) porn industry?

This is actually one of the arguments made in the article: that the gaming industry should be compared to the porn industry, not the film industry.

The reason being is that the film industry that they are comparing the sales to is limited to only box office receipts (I believe), whilst the gaming sales takes everything in to account associated with the game. If they were to take in to account all of the toys, gadgets, cereals, shirts, etc that movies produce, then the film industry would be much larger than the gaming industry.

I didn't care much for the article, anyway, maybe because it seemed more like a rant than anything.

Re:It's not just games (2)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 13 years ago | (#204586)

> It's our culture. Everything we do is sexualized. ... How many ads have you seen use sex to sell things?

Didn't I read here just a couple of weeks ago that Salon itself was using s0ft pr0n to lure people to their subscriber-only section?

--

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (1)

Funky Jester (24420) | more than 13 years ago | (#204594)

Exactly. So what does porn have to do with all this, and why is it at E3?

Re:Porn and games are similar. (5)

GregWebb (26123) | more than 13 years ago | (#204595)

This then begs the question of what would be better.

Hypothetically, User #267435 is looking for a new boyfriend via the internet. She wishes to find a male user of internet discussion forums who enjoys neither computer games or pornography.

I foresee a potential problem here :-)

Re:Oh No! Not the porn industry! (1)

nEoN nOoDlE (27594) | more than 13 years ago | (#204598)

Hey, how bout reading the article? It states that the game industry compares itself to the "6 billion dollar movie industry" but they're only counting the box office figures against all game hardware, software, and peripheral sales. So it does closely resemble the 5 billion dollar porn industry.

He makes some interesting points but... (5)

mav[LAG] (31387) | more than 13 years ago | (#204602)

this one had me laughing:

Sierra, for example, which first gained prominence through family-friendly adventure games..

Like Leisure Suit Larry?

And E3 means what? (1)

cisko (35325) | more than 13 years ago | (#204606)

So this stuff happens at E3. So what? I don't buy games based on what goes on there.

I'm not sure what is supposed to happen if E3 becomes more "grown up". Is that the magic step to making games into "Big Business"? Games are already big enough business. Going more mainstream is not going to result in better games.

Tailhook scandal expose', or just Geek bashing ? (4)

drivers (45076) | more than 13 years ago | (#204609)

Excerpt 1:

(Then again, when it comes to erotic self-delusion, the average game boy is probably their peer. "I was all flirting with her and I gave her my business card," said a chunky, fish-lipped E3 attendee, proudly reporting back to his friends. "She said she'd send me some pictures, and call me.")

Excerpt 2:

It's the dearth of women, among other things, that consigns games to their geek ghetto, with no genuine celebrities, or pop-cult recognition outside its narrow subculture. So at E3, you're treated to the sight of hot young developers swaggering across the floor, tricked out in pimp daddy raiment and boy-band hair, whose only groupies are mouth-breathing dudes in "Akira" T-shirts.

Excerpt 3:

It only takes a couple of hours of floor gossip to grasp how deep the social retardation among most game developers runs -- and how not ready for prime time they truly are.


And I won't even mention the number of times that dreaded term "mainstream" was touted as some kind of desirable trait...

For example, in Tomb Raider (2)

devphil (51341) | more than 13 years ago | (#204610)


When you can make an April Fool's joke on your corporate website claiming that the gold CD of TR mistakenly contained code that makes Lara's breasts too big, you might just fall into this kind of category... :-)

<pedantic moralism>
Tomb Raider should spend less time highlighting her breasts, and more time highlighting good, clean fun like... raiding... um... raiding and desecrating tombs and cemetaries... for treasure... uh, nevvamind
</pedantic moralism>

E3 Boothbabe Math (3)

citizenc (60589) | more than 13 years ago | (#204617)

I've noticed that at each E3 event, the number of boothbabes (and amount of clothing they are (or aren't) wearing) at a given booth is inversely proportional to the level of anticipation a game has.

For example, a game like "Space Bunnies Must Die [spacebunnies.com] " had TONS of boothbabes, because nobody gave a crap about the game. =)

---

Wrong! (1)

ffatTony (63354) | more than 13 years ago | (#204619)

Nerds/Geeks are not the only ones who like to see a little skin, ever heard of teenage boys? Perhaps if games contained half-naked images they would stop wasting their time at church bake-sales and play.

It is obvious games are targeted at teenagers as they already have most of the nerd/geek market.

Sex and Violence (2)

Ted V (67691) | more than 13 years ago | (#204622)

Come on folks, it's the perfect combination! Lets see, we have an extremely grizzly new game like Soldier of Fortune 2. How should we market it...

I know! Sex! Sex and Violence are the two great advertisers that send right wingers running for senate sub-committies! I'm sure it's all some plot to piss off congress-critters. And journalists [salon.com] I might add...

-Ted

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

Talaran (70085) | more than 13 years ago | (#204626)

I agree ... was this guy aggressive because he played games and watched pr0n, or did he play games and watch pr0n because he was aggressive? Blaming either for this ex-boyfriend's problems is a tad misguided. I have little doubt you could find someone even more aggressive who played/watched neither. It's kinda like saying you'd never go out with someone who watched Star Trek, because they must be a nerd. Wiser to judge people as individuals, rather than pidgeonhole them like that.

Re:Do girls buy games? (2)

sben (71467) | more than 13 years ago | (#204629)

> Do girls buy games on anywhere near the volume
> boys do?

That's part of the point of the article. Leaving out the question of whether the gaming industry's marketing approach is "right" or "good" or whatever, it's alienating to almost 50% of the potential gaming population (i.e. women). The industry can't grow beyond its current ghetto if it doesn't market to a broader audience.

Re:She doesn't know the half. (3)

technos (73414) | more than 13 years ago | (#204632)

If I ever have a daughter who's a programmer, she's going into databases

Database geeks are worse..

Salon's Envy (2)

Baldrson (78598) | more than 13 years ago | (#204636)

Salon is just jealous that their girly-men "authors" don't have the technical balls that it takes to grab the enormous profits in softcore porn in this age of first-person-shooter 3D interactive media. I understand Salon has their own softcore porn offerings that, I am sure, are about as appealing as anything can be to their girly-men. I wonder if that has anything to do with their consternation at the large piles of cash being acquired by geeks with and their Internetworked rendering engines?

If Salon is so distressed at the market gap in first-person 3D interactive media targeting girly-men and just plain girls as their customers, they have a more than ample supply of the aforementioned primates with which to pursue said market. And as for capital -- didn't Salon go IPO? (snark snark snark)

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

supabeast! (84658) | more than 13 years ago | (#204639)

"I have made it a condition that those I am interested in not play computer games or use pornography."

Women like you drive men like me to homosexuality. I would SO much rather spend all of my time with my hard drinking, game playing, violent guy buddies, and fuck them as well, than to date a waste of flesh like yourself. And unfortunately, far too many women's views are just like yours.

Duh! (1)

_iris (92554) | more than 13 years ago | (#204647)

It doesn't take a freakin' genious to figure this out. Look at the games today. To sum them up in a few words: steep learning curve, acrobatic fingers, overly system heavy, buggy. It's sad when somebody pays 40 dollars for a game that is buggier than an emulator that can play 500+ games faster.

Just Geek Boys? NYTimes says porn is mainstream.. (1)

uqbar (102695) | more than 13 years ago | (#204654)

In Sunday's NY Times Magazine there is an article [nytimes.com] on the size of the porn industry (as much as $14 billion in the US per year) and its consumers (practically everyone). A good read and a strong challenge to those who claim that "community standards" dictate that porn be banned from their towns.

Damned hypocrites! (2)

swordgeek (112599) | more than 13 years ago | (#204670)

I remember some years ago, when Comdex declared that sex was evil and the hard-core porn game companies weren't welcome anymore. They had their own across the street, which is still going on in tandem with Comdex.

I remember when Chips&Bits used to sell said software, and when all of the ZD publications used to advertise it. Then suddenly ZD "Got Morality!" and quit accepting these ads. In other words, they could afford to turn their back on a revenue stream that helped make them the major publisher. That's their perogative, but their supposedly moral stance is bullshit.

Chips&Bits? They don't sell any of the old X-rated games anymore. Of course what formerly were X-rated games are now X-rated interactive DVDs.

So the publishing and reselling industry made their mark by pushing hardcore porn, and now everyone's all getting up in arms over softcore porn? Go figure!

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

palo0019 (120416) | more than 13 years ago | (#204681)

When did catholic schoolgirls start reading slashdot? Oh wait, your email address is @americanwicca.com? Hmm, I figure you'd understand things that are frequently misunderstood and misrepresented...

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (1)

hyperizer (123449) | more than 13 years ago | (#204684)

You've got games where you can frag or blow up humans, mutants, zombies, terrorists, counter-terrorists, buildings, spaceships, starships, elves, dwarves, attack choppers, gangsters, aliens, vampires, hostages, and beings from the Alice in Wonderland universe. And you're concerned about Lara Croft's short shorts?

I think you'd be hardpressed to prove that fictional scenarios like the ones you mentioned above are more harmful than the pervasive objectification of women which results in real-world problems like rape and anorexia.

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (2)

legLess (127550) | more than 13 years ago | (#204691)

Maybe you should read the article before posting next time, Sparky. It's not about soft porn in games, but about real live soft porn at gaming trade shows. So yes, I find that much more concerning than pushing a button and causing a few pixels on screen to be reconfigured as I "kill" a "zombie."

question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes

Coupl'a things (3)

legLess (127550) | more than 13 years ago | (#204692)

First, what the article said is that there's no proof at all that sex does sell games, or even help promote them. Like all those lame-ass dot-com hype parties in San Francisco and Seattle. Who gives a fuck what the product is? Where's the free booze and tote-bag? Most game companies would be better off having the booth babe beta their game for a day instead of waltzing around in butt-floss.

Second, to answer "why so many videogames rely on explicit violence," my HO is that most game companies have no bloody idea how to make a good game. You'd be hard-pressed to find a better-run or more talented game shop than id software, but they're still basically a technology shop. They build engines and write network code. Ever wonder why Nethack is more interesting to play than Quake3Arena? Because design and coding time went more towards gameplay than technology.

The gaming industry seems to be learning a few lessons lately: Half-Life and Thief were fascinating to play, and technologically advanced "enough." But in this industry, pre-release hype counts for not just a lot but nearly everything. With no hype you get no positioning on store shelves, no advance orders, no magazine covers. And what's easier to hype? A couple screen shots with bump-mapped water or a "gameplay features document" that puts most people to sleep?

Even Black & White was hyped mostly for its engine and AI. The gameplay, IMHO, is pretty stunningly boring. Like Starcraft, but with a sidekick; like Dungeon Keeper with a slightly smarter demon. I don't know what the solution is, or if there is one, but most games these days either put me to sleep or annoy me.

question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes

Re:It's not just games (5)

legLess (127550) | more than 13 years ago | (#204693)

Of course it's not just games. I find women beautiful, but I'm still sick and tired of seeing breasts everywhere as the primary focus of advertising. I fully support a women's right to celebrate her sexuality any way she chooses, for self-gratification, money, attention, or whatever. But I think it's sad that so often it's for the financial gain or prurient interest of emotionally-retarded men.

I found the article's comparisons with porn interesting, but I don't agree with the author's premise that games are very far removed from Hollywood. Christ - Hollywood not exploit women? The difference here is audience, and it's a typical chicken-and-egg scenario.

Women go to see Hollywood movies all the time, and not always the notorious "chick flicks." Hollywood takes the female audience very seriously, and panders to it very successfully (just like it panders to everyone, of course; this isn't gender-specific). Porn and games, however, are consumed mostly by men, often young men, so these industries pander to that audience.

Is it lack of focus by game developers? Is it that men are more easily visually stimulated than women (porn), or more competitive (games)? In my experience, women are less apt to want to sit in front of a computer, for any reason. Dunno why :/

question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes

Re:Oh No! Not the porn industry! (2)

bellings (137948) | more than 13 years ago | (#204700)

Go read this New York Times Magazine article on the porn industry. [nytimes.com]

I read the Salon article. I don't have a clue where they found that "$5 billion a year" stat for porn, or why they got the wild idea that $5 billion counted "everything" associated with porn.

The porn industry is quite a bit larger than the hollywood movie industry -- it's certainly much more than twice $5 billion dollars if you count the total revenue from everything. (Real journalists are often as sloppy as the Slashdot toy journalists. Salon journalists are sometimes even sloppier than that. Imagine.)

The game industry will probably blow past the revenues of the hollywood movie industry soon, but they still have a long way to go before they're anywhere near the revenue of the porn industry.

Oh No! Not the porn industry! (3)

bellings (137948) | more than 13 years ago | (#204702)

So, instead of being like the $6 billion a year hollywood film industry, it will be more like the $10 billion a year (and extremely profitable) porn industry?

Boy, it would really really suck for games if they were had higher sales, and a much larger profit margin, than porn.

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (2)

evilned (146392) | more than 13 years ago | (#204707)

Alright, I'll bite on this troll. First of all I have yet to see any study that has ever been able to link pure porn and rape. Its B.S. Hell your best link to rape at least in the college life, is either being in a fraternity or a member of an atheletic team. Now as far as anorexia, take a look at Cosmo, or fashion models, or even better barbie. These are things that women see and read much more than a game or a gaming magazine. I spend more time with my girlfriend saying "you're not fat, those girls in the magazine are just sickly thin", even though she is height weight proportional and quite shapely. She never complains about being fat when she sees me play unreal tournament or quake or anything. She doesnt complain about being fat while she plays The Sims. If you want to complain about the objectification of women, start with the stuff they read, I have a feeling you will find a much better link there.

Have you ever considered this: (1)

Srin Tuar (147269) | more than 13 years ago | (#204708)

Maybe your boyfriend is a freak?

I personally believe any guy who is not interested in video games, firearms, paintball, explosions, or something of that nature to be extremely abnormal.

Men are hardwired to be violent, and that has a lot to do with natural evolution. (The non violent guys just didnt make it)

Video games are a safe and effective way to allow us to vent this. (A good game a counterstrike is amazingly refreshing) Pent up guys are prone to stress- or to take out their anger physically.

Perhaps your boyfriend didnt play enough games...

And who the hell is Salon to point fingures? (4)

Picass0 (147474) | more than 13 years ago | (#204709)

Salon would know a think or two about porn from thier own pay site. [salon.com]

True true true (1)

chinton (151403) | more than 13 years ago | (#204711)

This is an invariable side effect off the acceptance of computers into mainstream society: more people have them, thus more people will be playing games. Your average person is going to play Zork for about 5 minutes, get bored, break that fancy egg, give up and go watch Baywatch.

I have been gaming for 20+ years and the games that I remember are the games like Zork or Deadline or Enchanter, not of Quake or Descent or Tomb Raider.

Sex sells to teenage boys (2)

MattLesko (155081) | more than 13 years ago | (#204714)

Hmm. Is this really so amazing? The primary target for video games is: teenage/pre-teen boys. And the primary target for porn? Well, technically, the over 18 crowd, but if you think every teenage boy isn't counting down the days to when they turn 18, then you obviously weren't a teenage boy (or at least, not a horny one). What's next - people complaining that modern rock (such as light punk, metal, stuff you hear on 'alternative' stations and MTV) is too violent and sexual? Same frickin' people!
You are more than the sum of what you consume.

I want a "Super Gameboy Advance"... (2)

green pizza (159161) | more than 13 years ago | (#204716)

... so I can play the new games on my TV. Seriously. It's the older, simpler, more fun games that I enjoy. My roommates have all of the wizbang new consoles, but we still spend more time playing and enjoying our collection of SNES games. The eyecandy of a new game is only fun for about two days.

Bah. (1)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 13 years ago | (#204717)

"Is gaming too much skin, not enough good clean fun?"

This is bullshit. Gaming is what it is: a delicate, yet perfect, balance between acceptable and unacceptable, between extreme and normal. Gaming is a natural activity of the human mind. Computer games are a natural extension.

I ask you: what does this question implicate, that we attempt to change the nature of games, of computer games, or of all games? And, taking into account the thought that "games are art..." are we then too blind to realize that pornography, too, is art? For crying out loud! There's tons of games with pornographic material, but similar games without. What the hell happened to Nintendo? HELLO?

The choice to employ pornography in a game is a risky one, forcing any number of consumers from a variety of markets to silently, or loudly, boycott the game, and the trade-off is a greater focus on the 'meat' market: teen-age boys. And since when is 'skin' not 'good clean fun'? Religious people are the only ones who think we shouldn't naturally celebrate the naked human body, and I say fuck that.

The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all, is the person who argues with him.

Re:That premise is shot... (1)

The Living Fractal (162153) | more than 13 years ago | (#204718)

heh I love Q.E.D. ever since I read Cryptonomicon... "Quod Erat Demonstratum" right?

The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all, is the person who argues with him.

That premise is shot... (1)

vandelais (164490) | more than 13 years ago | (#204719)

because Angelina Jolie obviously disagrees Q.E.D.

"We are upping our standards ... so up yours." --Pat Paulsen for President, 1988.

It's not just games (4)

schulzdogg (165637) | more than 13 years ago | (#204720)

It's our culture. Everything we do is sexualized. How many trade shows have you been to and not seen booth babes? How many ads have you seen use sex to sell things? The argument of the article is basically: There's a lot of gratuitious sex here and it's keeping video games in the "geek ghetto". But that's not true: All products use sex to sell, especially entertainment. Saying that video games are especially sexually charged ignores the legions of sexually charged movies, tv shows, magazines, etc that are already consumed. Video games didn't grow in a vacum. end rant.

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

EraseEraseMe (167638) | more than 13 years ago | (#204722)

Is it just me or does your ex-boyfriend seem to come up a lot in your posts? Not the more recent ones, but at least 50% of the time, your ex, or one of your ex's is brought up to have done something in the past that affected your outlook on life...Which tells me you either suffer from advanced delusionary schizophrenia with involuntary narcissistic rage, or you still haven't gotten over the poor sod(s).

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

EraseEraseMe (167638) | more than 13 years ago | (#204723)

Hmm, someone moderate this guy down because I laughed so hard I spat coke all over my monitor

Thanks

Re:It's not just games (3)

Medgur (172679) | more than 13 years ago | (#204724)

It's not fair to say "it's our culture," when, the fact remains rampant sex, and/or the suppression of, is found in all cultures throughout the world. A desire for sex, in any medium, is part of our humanity, and may be the one constant in all cultures across the globe and throughout time. Trying to suppress this desire, or attempting to censor any expressions of it eventually creates frustration and anger amongst the affected population. Personally, I don't understand why an effort to suppress and control this aspect of humanity is even made, history shows that it's a hopeless cause (eg, prostitution is humanity's oldest industry, and countless societies have attempted to stop it entirely, yet all have failed).

Now, I'm not advocating rampant sexual media, or even legalization of prostitution. I'd just like to see conservative (harmful) attitudes laid to rest, and maybe then we'll stop seeing such an emphasis on "softcore porn" in gaming (rebellion), and a greater emphasis on character interaction, plot, and story line.

Wishful thinking, I know.

-Medgur

Re:Porn and games are similar. (4)

Medgur (172679) | more than 13 years ago | (#204725)

"we should not stimulate those who cannot handle a heightened sense of awareness and can't resist their desires"
"it is the women of America who really pay for the porn and violence that our menfolk consume"
I hate to cut apart your entire post, but I just wanted to highlight those points, as they seem to speak clearly for themselves. I've gotten the impression that you're advocating that much of the male populace cannot handle such intense emotions without longterm side effects? And, as a result we should do our best to shield them from any intense media in order to protect the interests of the other 51% of society? The problem here is, this is an extremely gender-biased approach to solving some of the most harmful aspects of society towards women (spousal abuse, rape, etc). Perhaps those that do offend are directly influenced into their actions by sexual and violent media, but then again, such violence has been declining in North America (please correct me if I'm wrong) long before such media really existed in such a wide spread manner. Perhaps, instead of blaming porn and violent video games, we should look at unemployment, poverty, racial/gender inequity (gender inequity is not just a problem for women, it is a problem for men as well), and general social frustration.

-Medgur

Re:Porn and games are similar. (2)

jaydub99 (188487) | more than 13 years ago | (#204738)

I dare say, if you're looking for a date, you came to the wrong messageboard... It's a shame too, because you sound very... how shall I put this... female? I think I hear the sound of a million /.'ers crying over their consoles.

Re:Oh No! Not the porn industry! (4)

jaydub99 (188487) | more than 13 years ago | (#204739)

And if all video games had the same (profitable) plot line, and wonderful character development.

"ding dong!"
"I wonder who that could be?"
"Hello, I'm here to clean the pool"
"My, but that's a large pole you've got there"
"Actually, it's a plasma gun. I intend to kill you with it."
"No, no. Please don't. I am very scared."

Cue the electric bass...

Sex sells, auction it. (1)

ThomK (194273) | more than 13 years ago | (#204741)

I can't remember the last time some booth said 'win a palm' and when you win it, you just get to look.
I advocate booth hookers. Auction them off for business cards, watch sales skyrocket.

Different != Bad (1)

Mtgman (195502) | more than 13 years ago | (#204742)

The tone of the article suggests that it is self-evident that these behaviors are wrong. Any woman with a g-string is evil and any man who looks at her needs help. I think we're going to find, as geeks find their influence in society growing with the technology they are affiliated with, a clash between the geek morality and the "traditional" morality.

Anyone who has read the Jargon File section on J. Random Hacker probably saw a lot of themselves in it. Geeks/hackers often have looser morals than the mainstream. This is not necessarially a bad thing, but just like Linux and Microsoft are going head to head because of different ideologies, we're going to see a clash over moralities soon. Geek culture is going to either have to adapt or conquer. Mainstream culture, at least in the US(about the only place Puritan values are considered anything but laughable) is going to clash with geek culture. It's already happening in the schools as more and more "geek" kids get in trouble for following the natural curiosity that is, in my opinion, the defining charastic of a geek. Similarially the geek curiosity makes us want to experiment with different moralities, especially where sex is involved. With a open mind, free of moral paradigms, pornography becomes a non-issue. Behavior is what is important. Individual responsibility and personal growth are far more important than some outdated feelings of "obligations" to current moral standars and the paradigms they represent.

Stay tuned, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Steven

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 13 years ago | (#204756)

perhaps we know different women. The ones that I know that interact with pornography at all view pornography (usually VCR instead of mpegs).

Re:Porn and games are similar. (2)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 13 years ago | (#204758)

And of course no women play computer games, or view pornography.

Perhaps instead of limiting your partners to those that do not participate in computer games or pornography, try to find ones who *can* handle the heightened sense of awareness, while still being able to resist desires...

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (3)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 13 years ago | (#204759)

Then maybe you should turn off your TV, or bomb a local movie theatre, or boyott makeup and skirts.

And god knows the Backstreet Boys aren't objectified by teenage girls the world over...

I would be nice if the comparisons were fair... (4)

Jayde Stargunner (207280) | more than 13 years ago | (#204761)

I mean, really. A guy going on and on about the "ghetto" nature of a few floozies stading at the booths is supposedly outweighing the over-sexxed nature of Hollywood? I think now.

If there's any industry that follows the "Sex Sells" motto, it would be that of the film industry. Sure, it's nice and all to idealistically blame videogames for the proliferation of viloence and sex in today's society, but it does little to explain the existance of the *realistic* violence and sex-laden nature of the movie and TV industry.

I suppose that using Brittney Spears and her hips to sell Pepsi is somehow more justified than having a "Booth Babes." I'm not saying the latter is better than the former, but it is definitly comparable. When following that line, the movie industry definitly carries protrayals of sex to a far more extreme nature than videogames ever could get away with. How many movies released last year had graphic sex scenes? How many videogames? Whatever high number you come up with for movies, you're still comparing it to a big *zero* in the gaming industry.

But, of course... With Hollywood, I guess it's considered "mature" and "artistic"--with games it's "Ghetto" and the "downfall of women."

lots of skin == good clean fun! (5)

Preposterous Coward (211739) | more than 13 years ago | (#204763)

Hey, why is it assumed that sex is somehow dirty and amoral rather than "good clean fun". I say consensual sex *is* good clean (well, sometimes a little sticky) fun! In fact my ex-girlfriend used to call her boobs "funbags", which always made me laugh. But I can assure you there was indeed plenty of fun to be had!

Admittedly, the use of hired booth bimbos smacks of tawdriness, but hey, if you can't get attention for your lame-o game you can probably get some by making a sexual connection. This is hardly unique to the gaming industry, or even to men. Just walk into your local supermarket and take a look at the covers of the magazines by the checkout aisle. It's all "Revive Your Sex Life" and "10 Things Men Wish You Would Do In Bed".

Sex sells. Wow, news flash. Sex sells to horny teenage gamer boys who are not the kind of alpha males who go to prom with the cheerleader on their arms. Geez, I'm so shocked.

There's a much better story, IMHO, in asking why so many videogames rely on explicit violence. Not that I think videogame violence turns our kids into monsters, but I do find it ironic that Americans are so puritanical about sex when we're so forgiving of graphic violence.

I definitely agree... [Troll...] (3)

aussersterne (212916) | more than 13 years ago | (#204764)

In terms of culture, the computer gaming industry is moving more and more toward pure, plotless sex and violence. Hardcore gamers actively make fun of bestselling games which don't involve blood and skin such as Riven or The Sims, even though they appear to appeal to a wider audience.

At least in this sense, I think that the "hardcore gamer" community is largely a collection of adolescent boys and underdeveloped men who live out their aggressive fantasies alone or online in games because they're unable to relate properly to "normal" humans (i.e. outside the tech industry). The tech industry and especially the gaming community seems to be a race of people unto itself, apart from the rest of humanity.

Of course, I say this as someone who owns $2,500 worth of PC and Linux games and was just looking at those butt-floss pictures on the gaming sites yesterday...

But seriously, I do get frustrated with some other gamers and their extreme views and behavior. Some of these guys make me feel downright normal and human by comparison.

On the other hand, if you read the article... (2)

2nd Post! (213333) | more than 13 years ago | (#204765)

You find that Sex does Not Sell.

That the biggest crowds were around Metal Gear Solid II, gawking at Warcraft 3, listening intently to the designers of Sims and other ground breaking games.

Sex causes commotion, yes, but if the game being tied to the commotion holds no appeal, the crowd walks on as soon as the performance ends.

Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]

Virtual Voyeurism (2)

ackthpt (218170) | more than 13 years ago | (#204768)

Lucky me, I live where woman dress attractively (not Kabul) year 'round. If I want to see some nice scenery I just go where people hang out or even the beach.

I've had a sore point with games for years, because there were only so many ideas being rehashed over and over. Same junk just looks better, but the game doesn't hold my attention. Strange as it may seem, I download one of the Apple ][ or C64 emulators and find all sorts of creative, interesting games which never made millions of dollars, but are fun to play, even trying to figure them out.

Updates of some of my favorite old games, I felt have been spoiled by the too-many-cooks "solution." (If a mountain bike is fun, then it should be fun with a blown-hemi, positraction differential, chrome wheels and sound like a Hog!) Uhm, no. It's the idea, if it isn't a fun idea, all the skin, glam, glitz and 5.1 audio isn't going to make it any more fun. Best games are still designed by people with an idea, who put it together. Crummy games are rehashes pushed by companies with shareholders as hungry and interested as a nest of baby birds looking for momma to show up. Seems there was a fun place to look for new developments. www.garagegames.com/ [garagegames.com]

--
All your .sig are belong to us!

Could it be that your female? (1)

BlueCoder (223005) | more than 13 years ago | (#204769)

Sounds like a woman to me.

So? (1)

blamario (227479) | more than 13 years ago | (#204773)

The reason for mor "porn" is simple: the gaming industry, and the computer industry in general, is much more liberal than Hollywood and any other industry. What exactly is wrong with having more sex?

Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (5)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 13 years ago | (#204774)

'The soft-porn fixation embarrassingly displayed at E3 is dooming the gaming industry to the nerd-geek ghetto.'

I find this hilarious. You've got games where you can frag or blow up humans, mutants, zombies, terrorists, counter-terrorists, buildings, spaceships, starships, elves, dwarves, attack choppers, gangsters, aliens, vampires, hostages, and beings from the Alice in Wonderland universe.

And you're concerned about Lara Croft's short shorts? Only in America.

Re:Porn and games are similar. (1)

hdh (230194) | more than 13 years ago | (#204775)

nickel psychology, I love it. I'm sure that if you investigate his behavioral history more closely, you will find that OZZY made him do it and not the porn OR video games, or perhaps Beavis and/or Butthead. Or maybe you're just a doormat. Dr. Laura called, she wants her show back...

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (1)

Magnus Pym (237274) | more than 13 years ago | (#204780)

Whereas you, I am sure, can reference 100 papers written by Women's Studies College Professors to support the contrary.

Magnus.

"Cosmopolitan" and "Glamour" are as bad. (4)

Magnus Pym (237274) | more than 13 years ago | (#204781)

The writer seems to have a major problem with men and boys. They like sex. The horror! However, the fact is, with the exception of a small "non-mainstream" percentage, most women like sex too. Ever taken a look at a "Woman's Magazine" lately? It is full of pictures of half-naked women/girls and explicit advice about sexual matters. Half the content is advice on how to attract wealthy and powerful men, and how to get rid of losers. Just as men rate women on how good their figures are, women rate men on their success, or "alpha-characteristics."

The only difference between Cosmopolitan and Playboy is that Cosmo sells sex from a "Producer" perspective and Playboy sells it from a "Consumer" perspective.

Magnus.

Nothing changed, it's always been like this. (1)

mselby (238376) | more than 13 years ago | (#204782)

Porn (soft or hard) has been and always will be on the forefront of technology because of it's success in the market. The day the game developers get their collective minds out the gutter is the day they start failing to make money. Here's an idea for an article. Research all the games that have been spectacular failures and see how suitable they would be for advertising on PAX.

She doesn't know the half. (5)

3prong (241218) | more than 13 years ago | (#204788)


From the article:

"As it stands, the whole jig is just one disgruntled female employee away from toppling under a sexual harassment suit. Very likely, the "hostile work environment" clause of the code is fulcrum enough to bring the entire embarrassing enterprise down around the industry's ankles."

She is talking about E3, but if she only knew what kind of hostile work environment exists at your average male-dominated game development house....

At one (nameless but could be any) game company a few years back, I remember hearing guys down the hall screaming "EAT MY FUCKING MANGINA, BITCH" repeatedly while playing games. This, at 4pm on a weekday. Also, surfing fecal porn during work hours brought barely a blink from our producer.

If I ever have a daughter who's a programmer, she's going into databases.

It's embarassing (4)

Lawbeefaroni (246892) | more than 13 years ago | (#204794)

As if Lara Croft isn't enough, try reading a gaming magazine in public. Half the ads are silly hack n' slash uberwarriors or near naked fetishized elves or something. Not that that's always bad, but if that's what you want, buy Musclemag or some pr0n. In no way does it ad to a game as far as I'm concerned. It puts me off since is it usually valid to assume, "the game sucks so they need tits and arse to sell it."

"Nerd-geek Ghetto." Ah ha ha. So true, I have many friends who pick up NHL 2001 or Madden just to have it on the shelf to balance out the "nerd-geek" factor.

Chill. (2)

MasterOfDisaster (248401) | more than 13 years ago | (#204795)

So what?
Sex sells. ESPECIALY to the 13-20ish male geeks. That's the demographic these games have.
Face it, we're geeks. We can't get any. If we could, we wouldn't be playing the games in the first place. Will half-naked chicks get me to buy a game? It all depends. Are they in the game? Are they out of the game? Are they hot?
And really, who is a little softcore porn in games hurting? If you don't want to see it, close your eyes. If you don't want your kids to see it? Tough luck, they will one day, no matter what.
and objectifying women? Please give me a break. Anyone who cant tell the difference between a [hooker|porn star|naked chick in a game|insert other sex orianted female profesion here] and an honest to goodness real life woman needs to go out and get a f'ing clue. Thank you. You may go now.

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (1)

Chris Carollo (251937) | more than 13 years ago | (#204798)

It's not about sex-vs-violence, it's about the appropriateness of each, and the degree to which each is pandering to the audience in its marketing.

Sure, games feature violence, but that aggression and violence is what the games are about! Using boothbabes to sell a game that has nothing to do with sex is just insulting, and that's the problem. I don't find the selling of sex in the music industry nearly as insulting, because the music itself is sexual.

It has nothing to do with America's puritanical attitudes toward sex. Using sex to sell a song about making love is appropriate. Using sex to sell a videogame is just pandering, and that's what this is about.

Well now...I wouldn't say that.... (5)

Kibo (256105) | more than 13 years ago | (#204804)

Umm Women rent porn. Girls not so much. However, teenage girls have disposible income on par with that of teenage boys. Yet they don't seem to spend it on video games. There are probably a great many reasons for this, but I'd put my money on the fact it's a lot easier to make a 1st person shooter that preaches to the spear chucking hunter in us males, than it is to make a game that piques the feminin desire to fiddle with reatlation ships. Hell when a female type person asks me "so what are you thinking?" I have no idea what to say, how's a computer going to respond?

They're harder to make games for, I imagine Black and White might appeal to some girls, but there are a lot of other market forces competing for those dollars. Getting girls to shift some of their income to games, might be like getting boys to shift some of their income to nail polish for men (yeah right). In Japan I think the games that really have the attention of the ladies, are the relationship role-playing games which (from descriptions I've read elsewhere) seem to revolve around a girl picking some boy and convincing him to fall in love with her, in a game akin to an old skool pick-a-path adventure.

At the end of the day, it looks like good games are one of the rewards of being born a male. Hand-eye coordination is easier to code for than relationship building.

salon trolling (2)

BryceH (263331) | more than 13 years ago | (#204809)

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/magazine/20PORN. html?searchpv=site02

read this article from the NYT about the porn industry then read the salon article :). might just give gamers a reason to chuckle at how trollish the salon article really is.

Porn and games are similar. (2)

Lover's Arrival, The (267435) | more than 13 years ago | (#204816)

Pornography and games are astonishingly similar - probably why they are liked by the same market segment. They both appeal to the basal emotions, and encourage the user to imagine himself doing thing unnacceptable in real life. In games it is violence, and in porn it is sex (and often violence too). The differences are minimal.

As an example, my ex-boyfriend used to like both porn and sex. However, after viewing both for some time it was as though a change had come over him - he would become very demanding and really quite aggressive. I noticed that when he had been playing Quake III the effects were actually worse than when he had been watching porn. Since he has left me, I have made it a condition that those I am interested in not play computer games or use pornography. Both stifle the imagination whilst heightening emotions. This effect is dangerous - we should not stimulate those who cannot handle a heightened sense of awareness and can;t resist their desires.

I would very much like to see both industries become more responsible. I would not like to see them banned, of course, but I would like to see them consider the consequences of their actions - it is the women of America who really pay for the porn and violence that our menfolk consume.

Re:Have you ever considered this: (2)

Lover's Arrival, The (267435) | more than 13 years ago | (#204817)

I'm sorry, but that is neodarwinian fascist nonsense. Nobody is hard wired to do *anything*. We are all humans, and we all have a choice. We are not automatons, driven by instinct.

My point is that porn and games tend to bring out these instincts you speak of, bot provide an outlet. Some men can be violent, but in the end that is their choice - they have no excuse. Even though games and porn may make it more likely that they be violent, they still have a choice.

Maybe my ideas seem strange because I am scottish and therefore from a really quite left wing and catholic background somewhat alien to american sensibilities, but I do think that where people cannot be responsible for themselves, the wider sommunity should step in. This would seem to apply to porn and violent games, to me.

Salon on Slashdot vs. Slashdot on Salon (1)

dachshund (300733) | more than 13 years ago | (#204818)

It's nice to see a Salon article used as inspiration for a Slashdot story rather than the other way around. I've been noticing that if you check out the Tech and Business section on any given day, you're more than likely to see some article on a subject "ripped from the headlines" of Slashdot.

PS Before I get flamed: I love Salon, and I realize Slashdot has linked to it quite a bit in the past.

Did you read the article? (1)

vondo (303621) | more than 13 years ago | (#204820)

It wasn't talking about porn in the games, but being used to *show off* the game designers at E3.

I think the author had a good point. Unless you want to exclusively market your product to under 30 males, why not have your booth have something to do with your product?

Do you expect to see strippers at the Sims booth? Ok, this is a bit of an exageration, but it makes the point.

Salon just making waves...and splashing slashdot (2)

blair1q (305137) | more than 13 years ago | (#204821)

I've seen about 5 reports on this show in the past couple of days (how did I ever live without TechTV?) in various media and have not noticed any blatant sexism. Yeah, there are tall, skinny chicks in a couple of the fighters, but they kick ass, so it's no tryanny that they're hot, too.

Maybe those outlets are winking at the developers and suppressing the mix. Or maybe Salon.Com--whose print ads include a fake story lead that reads like the top of a racist troll--is just trying to pad their unique-eyeball tally.

--Blair
"You think?"

Troll much? (4)

moronga (323123) | more than 13 years ago | (#204828)

I guess this is more believable and consequently a better troll, but your post earlier this day [slashdot.org] in the Japanese gadgets discussion was much funnier.

hypocrite! (5)

cosmo7 (325616) | more than 13 years ago | (#204832)

yeah, right, Wagner, we should keep sex out of things. so, i guess writing stuff like this [nerve.com] is completely out of the question.

It's an environment thing (1)

Boiling_point_ (443831) | more than 13 years ago | (#204840)

Is it any wonder that bimbettes and games appear often together? Male adolescents playing games are already likely to be struggling for self-esteem and experimenting with pr0n at the expense of forming actual relationships with girls. Sorry to sound like Katz, but doesn't this stem from the poor socialisation of youth in general?

You can't blame marketers for picking the easiest, most-likely-to-succeed option for shifting units. Duke Nukem Forever will sell by the bucketful, esp. now that 3DRealms spent long hours coding that g-string dancer at the end of the preview movie released recently.

It isn't the gibs or girls I play games to see. Sure, seeing blood on a wall is handy for seeing if you've hit your opponent. I can't explain the value of tasselled b00bs in the same way. Once you develop some social skills and a mature attitude to other human beings, all this skin just becomes an obstacle to avoid when you're trying to have fun.

Who whining now? (2)

6EQUJ5 (446008) | more than 13 years ago | (#204843)


So a bunch of ugly, dumb moralists are upset again... Good. Sex is finally being accepted by NORMAL people. You can't call people perverts just for living their lives anymore. More sex the better -- in games, movies, tv, ... and real life.

A Possible Solution (4)

6EQUJ5 (446008) | more than 13 years ago | (#204844)


Let's only have disgusting, unattractive characters from now on. We'll replace Lara Croft with Rosie O'Donnell. Will that satisfy the Tipper Gores of the world?

NO!? In other words, basically nothing will make them happy, because they enjoy preaching and making people feel bad. It has nothing to do with their cause; if they actually got what they wanted they'd still bitch just as loud.

I don't see what the big deal is... (1)

kypper (446750) | more than 13 years ago | (#204846)

Our culture has made soft-porn. We feel the body MUST be covered, and so we're attracted to what we can't see. Look at Europe, where any actress will casually strip for a movie where it is REASONABLE to be naked in the plot.
Stupidity leads to stupidity.
Oh and by the way... if all of our kids were looking at porn and not doing anything violent, this world would be a better place :op

The animal in us all (1)

ProbeAD (447759) | more than 13 years ago | (#204847)

While it is a sad commentary on life, the fact still remains that this is our society. Video games in general(at least for males) are all about competition. Video games are no different than sports in this aspect. So it is natural for your testosterone to rise while playing a video game. The gaming industry knows this all too well, and you better believe they will exploit it for thier own profit. SEX SELLS. Is this news? I actually find it easier to accept sex selling video games, rather than sex selling soft drinks. Welcome to America! Where up is down and down is up ;)

Sex is not a problem (1)

DrunkenMoNk (449926) | more than 13 years ago | (#204850)

Who really cares if theres sex and violence in video games? If there is do you have to buy it? The only reason that there is because it sells, if people didn't really want it it wouldn't be selling now would it? If I've heard right so far, the only industry that thrives on the internet is porn... Maybe it's cause people actually *gasp* like sex... though everyone in the world is trying to stop you from it...

Re:Porn and games are similar. (2)

shut_up_man (450725) | more than 13 years ago | (#204852)

> Pornography and games are astonishingly
> similar ...They both appeal to the
> basal emotions, and encourage the user to
> imagine himself doing thing unnacceptable
> in real life.
Uh... no. :) Some games portray the unacceptable, some don't. Tony Hawk Skating may portray the *phyically impossible* for most of us, but not the unacceptable.

Different games also affect different people different ways. Maybe your ex really sucked at Quake III, and that's why he was angry when he was done. Maybe he would've been happier playing something else (Bust-A-Move maybe?).

shut up man

The writer is just out of touch... (5)

Chasing Amy (450778) | more than 13 years ago | (#204853)

Not to mention the fact that any hack who would use the word "cock-tease" in an article about alleged over-sexedness in an industry can be safely ignored. That in itself is proof that we live in a day and age when sex has mass appeal and is not considered by most to be impropriety when used like this. The majority of society--not just geekdom--is accepting of sexuality as an everyday part of existence, not something that needs to be kept private but something to be used as any other tool and any other type of appeal. This writer is just out of touch, and believes all the out of touch statements by old and out of date people like Sen. Lieberman and the others who are trying to close the gate after the horse has already left the barn.

Gaming is not a market for the old. It is a market for the young, the bulk of the industry aimed at teens through 30. As such, it is natural that the gaming community should reflect the values of its audience. And those values include treating sexuality openly. When the writer speaks of "the industry's dogged unwillingness (or inability) to join the mainstream," he's being ignorant of the fact that the behaviour he is denigrating is actually the mainstream.

It's ironic that at the same time old throwbacks like Lieberman who want to return culture to the 50s, are complaining that Hollywood is marketing sex and violence to teens, that this writer is ignorant enough to try to try to separate Hollywood from the gaming industry based on the gaming industry's wealth of sexuality and violence that is exactly akin to a typical Hollywood blockbuster. When he complains that gaming is an industry "with no genuine celebrities, or pop-cult recognition outside its narrow subculture" he conveniently ignores the fact that any given teen or twentysomething, and many older folks, can list their fvorite games just as they can their favorite films, and list their main characters just as they could list film stars. The lack of flesh-and-blood gaming icons outside the hardcore community is merely a reflection of the fact that people don't star in games--computer generated characters do, at least so far. So that's the fair comparison to make. Whether Mario or Lara Croft or Frogger, mainstream people know these characters and their games just as they know Hollywood stars and their movies.

The writer is just out of touch.

Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)

Re:Who whining now? (1)

gethane (451907) | more than 13 years ago | (#204855)

Many of the posters are saying "YAY! more sex! people should have more sex. Sex is being accepted." And you know what? I agree with that statement. I'm a female and guess what? I like sex too. BUT.... Normal, healthy sex between consenting loving adults is NOT what these games are displaying and its not what the article is about. The problem is not with sex, its with objectifying women only as sex objects and with partnering that meaningless sex WITH violence. I'm all for sex. You want sex? Go develop a relationship with a real live girl. Do the horizontal boogy all you want. I'll cheer you. I do it too. But please, I'm tired of my avatars running around looking like she stepped off the stripper stage.

Re:No, (1)

Looge is GOD (454287) | more than 13 years ago | (#204860)

Most of today's gamers are 15-21 yr old males. Does this not explain why games with scantily clad women are so popular? Of course Looge is older, but he'd never shy away from the chance of a sight of some babe's skin, oooh no.

Re:Concerned about SOFT PORN?!? (1)

Looge Over All! (454290) | more than 13 years ago | (#204861)

You'd me more hard-pressed to prove your point though.

Luckily I know the answer, Looge told me.

Re:Yawn... (1)

Looge Over All! (454290) | more than 13 years ago | (#204862)

Don't worry about it, Looge will make it all better.

He feeds on your apathy thereby becoming a greater force for good.

Nope: Definition of good varies according to morals but weed is always good.

Re:So? (1)

Looge Over All! (454290) | more than 13 years ago | (#204863)

If the gaming industry is so free and liberal why don't more game charcters smoke, drink alcohol (or even exist in an environment where such are available) or have religious beliefs?

Because publishers won't allow these things. They're naughty.
Nudity's okay though seemingly.

I'm waiting for the first game company to try an take advantage of the Looge phenomenon.
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