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Ask Slashdot: Mac To Linux Return Flow?

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the come-back-to-the-penguin's-loving-embrace dept.

IOS 965

jasnw writes "I'm one of apparently many people who moved to OS X from Linux in the early/mid 2000s for their desktop system, keeping Linux boxes around for the heavy lifting and server work. I may also be part of a large segment of that group now considering a return because of all the iOS-ification of OS X, despite the fact that the Linux desktop still falls short in the 'it just works' area. I'm angry enough at Apple, and wary enough of Linux, that I might just go to using Windows 7 for the desktop (not Win8, however). What is the feeling/experience of other 'traitors' who run OS X for the desktop and Linux for everything else?"

cancel ×


Windows 7 (2, Interesting)

efitton (144228) | about a year ago | (#43164985)

I actually feel like KDE and Gnome were the traitors, not me. If Windows 9 is anything like Windows 8 I'm going to have a huge problem.

Re:Windows 7 (1, Troll)

ickleberry (864871) | about a year ago | (#43165021)

KDE tried to copy Windows as much as they could - when I saw their annoying Windows-esque dialogue when you connect a USB mass storage device I was done with that. Then Gnome chased the "everything is going Web 3.0 and mobile" dream so this leaves me with only sensible window managers like XFCE and LXDE. Any other ones I should try?

Re:Windows 7 (3, Informative)

cjpa (796302) | about a year ago | (#43165093)

Now that Windowmaker ( has been picked up again, you might look at that one. That's the one i always ran before switching to OSX.
And i'm pretty sure it's going to be the one i'm running when i move back since i already decided that my next laptop won't be a macbook anymore.

Re:Windows 7 (4, Interesting)

noh8rz10 (2716597) | about a year ago | (#43165345)

@ submittor: if you don't like OSX 10.8 (Mountain Lion), why not just go back to snow leopard? It's stable as a rock. My personal opinion is I like the additional usability in mountain lion, but obv ymmv.

Re:Windows 7 (1)

Goodyob (2445598) | about a year ago | (#43165101)

OpenBox maybe?

Re:Windows 7 (1)

arisvega (1414195) | about a year ago | (#43165249)

so this leaves me with only sensible window managers like XFCE and LXDE.

Any other ones I should try?

Fluxbox- do-it-yourself!

Re:Windows 7 (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165263)

I've had great success with cinnamon on Linux Mint 14, give it a try

Re:Windows 7 (1)

kobach (803388) | about a year ago | (#43165289)

of course I wasn't logged in when I posted, why would anyone pay attention to that...

Trinity Desktop Environment (KDE 3.5 fork) (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165349)

After having tried all the others (best liking XFCE of those), I am back to KDE3.5. An update should be out shortly once heavy internal restructuring is completed, then the lo0Oong 'feature freeze' should be over for KDE3. *joy*

Re:Windows 7 (1)

cmdr_tofu (826352) | about a year ago | (#43165425)

I use both OSX (only very recently) and Linux desktops and always felt that the Gnome 2.0 desktop (abandoned by Ubuntu, but still the default for Debian stable for the moment), was the best desktop ever. It was the Ubuntu 8.04 LTS desktop that got be to "betray" my simple and straightforward olvwm solution and now I don't want to switch back to olvwm.

So I'm using LXDE on my Ubuntu desktop (only because I don't want to reinstall with Debian stable). It is OK. I like it more than OSX GUI, but not more than Gnome 2.0. I run OSX on my MacBookAir, but mostly I spend my time in a Debian VM which uses Gnome 2.0. Honestly having only just started using MACs really, and am not part of the group that abandoned Linux in the early 2000's. But Gnome 3.0 etc to me feel like a nudge away from Linux. The wonderful thing about Linux desktops though is the diversity of options, so if you don't like desktop X, you can use desktop Y or dekstop Z.

Hmm while writing this I just did a web search for virtual desktops in OSX (the major feature I miss from Linux when I'm on my macbook air) []

So OSX might be OK. I still like gnome-terminal and lxterm more than OSX terminal program. And left click should mark stuff, middle mousebutton (or chordmiddle) should paste!

Re:Windows 7 (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165051)

What KDE did was silly. Gnome doing it was insanity, given their failure to learn.
BUT.... KDE is now back where it was, and Gnome+Cinnamon is usable.
Meanwhile, XFCE is a great alternative.

Re:Windows 7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165059)

My guess is Windows 9 will be to Windows 8 as Windows 7 was to Vista.

Microsoft is putting up a straw-man to tear up with a future release. It's amazing how much better Windows 7 looked when compared to Vista. They couldn't have pulled off the same miracle had users upgraded directly from Windows XP to 7.

Re:Windows 7 (2, Insightful)

AaronLS (1804210) | about a year ago | (#43165125)

As Windows XP was to Windows ME
As Windows 98 was to Windows 95

It's like every other version is the experiment, followed by the practical application of it.

Re:Windows 7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165111)

I actually feel like KDE and Gnome were the traitors, not me. If Windows 9 is anything like Windows 8 I'm going to have a huge problem.

Old software doesn't suddenly stop working when a new version comes out... At least when you use Linux, you have a chance to continue patching the old version to resolve bugs instead of being forced to use something worse.

Re:Windows 7 (2)

man_of_mr_e (217855) | about a year ago | (#43165381)

Assuming you a) have the skill and b) have the time and c) give a flying fart and d) don't want to commit seppuku by the maze of patch dependencies.

Re:Windows 7 (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165119)

Okay, the Distro's got it horribly wrong with their move the KDE 4. KDE said version 4.0 was only for developers and all the distro's pushed it out anyway.

I started using KDE around 4.7 or 4.8 when Ubuntu pushed out Unity that was utter crap, and the Gnome had gone to their 3.0 crap-fest. I have found KDE 4 awesome.

On lower powered compy's I've install Xubuntu. Way easier to install than Windows XP or 7. Wipe drive, format, and load Xubuntu. Worked without any screwing around with drivers or anything. I was mega impressed.

Re:Windows 7 (0)

ChrisSlicks (2727947) | about a year ago | (#43165287)

Windows 9 will be Windows 8 with a selectable start menu. It will out-sell Windows 8 ten-fold.

Re:Windows 7 (4, Informative)

sjames (1099) | about a year ago | (#43165329)

It's worth considering MATE. It's a fork of Gnome2 that intends to develop into what Gnome 3 would have been had they not drunk the cool aid.

Ubuntu (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43164991)

It runs just fine on the recent MBAs

Grow Up (2, Insightful)

turgid (580780) | about a year ago | (#43164995)

Use your brain, chose an OS, learn to use it.

Re:Grow Up (2, Interesting)

craigminah (1885846) | about a year ago | (#43165071)

Windows 8 is pretty good if you install a third party Start Menu program that allows you to skip the Metro start screen at login. With Windows 8 sales lagging, I bet MS will add something like Start8 to Windows 8...overall Windows 8 is better than Windows 7 in all aspects except Metro (on anything that's not a phone or tablet).

Regarding Linux, I'd go with any Distro that uses Cinnamon or KDE.

Re:Grow Up (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165135)

Microsoft adding Start8? Isn't that a bit like retrofitting a V8 engine into an original Volkswagen?

Re:Grow Up (4, Insightful)

yurtinus (1590157) | about a year ago | (#43165327)

I think it's more like putting the handle back on the spoon.

Re:Grow Up (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165195)

I have Windows 8 and I do not find it as annoying as people claim it to be.

Re:Grow Up (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165271)

Regarding Linux, I'd go with any Distro that uses Cinnamon or KDE.

I like Unity. I actually do.

Re:Grow Up (5, Insightful)

cheater512 (783349) | about a year ago | (#43165369)

Its funny that Windows 8 is starting to sound like what Linux was a few years ago and Linux is far closer to 'just works' now.

"Windows 8 is great! Now after you install it go to this link, download the app and follow the instructions. That will make your computer usable."
Sound familiar?

Avoid ubuntu (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43164999)

Seriously. Their distribution is turning to total shit.

I prefer Fedora. I hear good things about Mint, but can't provide firsthand experience. Also, if you don't like the default window manager (Gnome3, whatever else), do the world a favor and quit bitching and just learn to use your distros package manager to install one you do like.

Quality entertainment (5, Funny)

dyingtolive (1393037) | about a year ago | (#43165005)

This thread will be good. I expect well-reasoned and rational comments from all sides, naturally.

*Munches popcorn and waits*

Re:Quality entertainment (5, Funny)

bobdehnhardt (18286) | about a year ago | (#43165083)

Popcorn? You're munching popcorn?

Hmph. Everyone knows corn nuts are the best snack for well-reasoned and rational comment watching!

Re:Quality entertainment (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about a year ago | (#43165247)

"Hmph. Everyone knows corn nuts are the best snack for well-reasoned and rational comment watching!"

Which is why you may not see any. Corn doesn't have nuts.

Re:Quality entertainment (3, Funny)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | about a year ago | (#43165353)

Great news.

Now, will you give me an insight regarding "Almond Milk". I can't find almond udders - even with a magnifing glass.

Re:Quality entertainment (0)

R3d M3rcury (871886) | about a year ago | (#43165301)

Ridiculous. Everyone knows that for well-reasoned and rational comment watching, a vegetable platter or cheese and crackers, served with a nice Merlot, are the best.

Corn Nuts?! Please. Perhaps you should also guzzle some pork rinds and budweiser.

Linux just works... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165007)

& Windows doesn't.

Re:Linux just works... (4, Informative)

toygeek (473120) | about a year ago | (#43165175)

That just is NOT true anymore. Windows 7 has been stable from the word go. Uptime measured in days and weeks for a DESKTOP computer that is only interrupted by important updates and other administrative tasks that require a reboot. Otherwise, it Just Works. This coming from a guy who LOVES Linux- on servers.

Re:Linux just works... (5, Informative)

Windowser (191974) | about a year ago | (#43165351)

That just is NOT true anymore. Windows 7 has been stable from the word go. Uptime measured in days and weeks for a DESKTOP computer that is only interrupted by important updates and other administrative tasks that require a reboot. Otherwise, it Just Works. This coming from a guy who LOVES Linux- on servers.

That's the first problem with Windows : there is so many things that needs you to reboot it is ridiculous. And the freakin updates that FORCES me to reboot. Only thing you can do is tell it to postpone the reboot for 4 hours. Then 4 hours later that fu***n thing pops-up again requesting you to reboot. And the worst : if you are not in front of you machine when it pops, after about a minute it will decide that it can just reboot. So you come back, your computer is at the login screen and you just have to re-open everything to get back to work. Who the f**k decided this was a good idea ?
Now I don't have that problem anymore. I installed Mint on my work computer and the only time I need to reboot is when I upgrade the kernel. After the upgrade there is a popup that tells me it needs to reboot to fully apply the update. If I click postpone IT WILL NEVER BOTHER ME AGAIN.
Also, I measure uptimes in months, not days and weeks. In fact I have an internet-facing server that is up for more that 5.5 years.

Re:Linux just works... (1)

yoshi_mon (172895) | about a year ago | (#43165385)

A decently managed XP box could do the same. Hell a well managed 95/98 box could keep highish uptimes as well. The 95/98 still were not in the same league with *nix at the time but still.

I say this as a fan of *nix and someone who is no fan of MS's policies/politics but having worked with their software I feel old now...too long they have done OK on the desktop as far as it goes. The idea of setting up some end user back in the day with a Slackware install vs 98? Yeah I know there were the hardcore who forced it on their friends/relatives and they "managed" to get buy. I still doubt were as happy as they would have been with a 98 install AND its faults.

The who trend of pushing smartphone/tablet UI's on to the desktop is the current problem. A bad one that is self inflicted by in large.

Re:Linux just works... (2)

jellomizer (103300) | about a year ago | (#43165313)

I have seen more Linux crashed than windows crashes from XP on.
However the stability is really based on the hardware and drivers more than the actuall OS now adays, having running windows on good hardware and Linux on cheap hardware isn't really a fair test. But compared to the mess of the DOS based windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME. It is rather stable.

Re:Linux just works... (1)

cheater512 (783349) | about a year ago | (#43165407)

If you compare 2001 Windows with 2001 Linux then yep.

2013 Windows vs 2013 Linux? It really starts leaning in the opposite direction.

Just start collecting livecd (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165011)

There is a livecd of each and every desktop available for linux. Try them, choose one, get things done.

We Salute You (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165015)

What is the feeling/experience of other 'traitors' who run OS X for the desktop and Linux for everything else?

We salute you.

Mac OS X is for liberals and gays.

You are joining the ranks of the freedom fighters.

-- roman_mir

MasterTroll (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165017)

Your trollcraft is strong, you named every OS, praising it whilst simultaneously deriding it. I give you 32 troll points for what will likely be highly polarized responses and self-sustaining conjecture and disagreement.

Re:MasterTroll (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165129)

Every OS? What about Be?!

Re:MasterTroll (1)

Vancorps (746090) | about a year ago | (#43165321)

BeOS was MacOS done right, it was perfection, or at least the closest thing to date in 1999ish. R5 was pretty damned impressive too.

You and me both (5, Insightful)

mwfischer (1919758) | about a year ago | (#43165031)

Linux is a great kernel. Linux has never had a good or stable GUI environment. Ever.

OS X and iOS QA has gone to shit. They're toys from China that break a lot now.

Windows 8 is a LSD trip. Windows 7 is the new Windows XP. However the Microsoft people will say Windows "next version" will be super better!!!! (since about Windows 3.11) like a broken record.

What's wrong with paper again?

Re:You and me both (2, Interesting)

Immostlyharmless (1311531) | about a year ago | (#43165167)

I have to admit, I really like Windows 7. I've tried various distros of *nix and they all left me in the cold when I realized that I had to hack a bunch of files to get my video/lan/wireless/modem working, and then pray like hell that what worked for one guy on a forum someplace would also work on my machine but never did. Windows 7 is the first version of Windows that I haven't felt like I needed to reinstall every 4-8 months just to keep it running stably with some snap. Hoping to eventually stick it on all the machines in my house. I haven't tried Windows 8 yet, but...with as well as 7 seems to run, (at least for me.) I can't see the need to 'upgrade'.

Re:You and me both (2)

Drinking Bleach (975757) | about a year ago | (#43165233)

Linux has never had a good or stable GUI environment. Ever.

I beg to differ. GNOME 2.32 was about as close to perfect as a desktop has ever been achieved.

(GNOME 3: you can still get the old UI back, but it's hidden as being a possibility. The 3.x Panel does work better with screen resolution changes (what games often do) since applets are snapped to left, center, or right instead of being freely placable (it's a good thing actually).)

Re:You and me both (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165377)

Waists trees ;)

      Xfce is pretty stable, fast and a fairly stock layout. These GUI's get in trouble because they try to add too much 3d graphic affects. Much like games they can bring the system down if there are any serious bugs. Every time they do a radical change (which is way too often) in layout and modules/plugins, you re-introduce new bugs.

Answer=FreeBSD (3, Informative)

cyberspittle (519754) | about a year ago | (#43165037)

You already have FreeBSD safe hardware. Linux is great, but FreeBSD would be easier for a Mac user. Personally, I would suggest Debian if you want Linux.

Re:Answer=FreeBSD (2)

David Hughes (2865305) | about a year ago | (#43165105)

FreeBSD? On a desktop? It's do-able, but if the OP thinks that Linux falls short in the 'it just works' department, he/she's not going to enjoy the FreeBSD desktop experience.

Re:Answer=FreeBSD (4, Informative)

adri (173121) | about a year ago | (#43165171)

PCBSD is getting there. I still run FreeBSD-9 and FreeBSD-HEAD on laptops. But I've used PCBSD on netbooks and laptops - when the hardware support is there, it's actually rather pleasant.

The only hardware support issues have been video and wifi. I can fix the latter, I can't fix the former. :)

Re:Answer=FreeBSD (1)

ottdmk (1376807) | about a year ago | (#43165229)

I've been using FreeBSD & KDE as my main desktop since 2002. I find it just works...for me, anyways. I certainly prefer it to Linux, but it's probably just because I'm used to it. I'd take Linux any day over MacOSX or Windows.

There and back again (5, Insightful)

spasm (79260) | about a year ago | (#43165061)

I went linux -> mac in about 2004, and mac -> linux in 2009. Basically got sick of the extra hassle required to get stuff that runs out of the box on linux running on mac. eg a mysql/php/apache stack that actually matched all the linux servers I administered; qgis, grass gis, inkscape, scribus,.. And by 2009 linux-on-the-desktop was a lot more 'just works' than it was in 2004. In short, the extra time I spend getting my mint linux setup working as I want from fresh install to doing work is much shorter than the amount of time spent doing the same on osx. But that's just me - my particular software needs are dictated by the kind of academic work I do, and what you do with your computers may make your experience different.

Re:There and back again (4, Interesting)

Tom (822) | about a year ago | (#43165185)

2009 must've been a different year.

I installed a PostGIS, Apache, PHP, QGIS, mapserver stack on both a Debian server and my OS X desktop. Getting it to run on Debian required moving the entire server to unstable, but after that it was easy and painless. Getting it running on OS X required a few manual downloads, but no other troubles.

I mean, if you're happy then all is good. I'm just saying. Because I just did the mostly same thing.

I found much the same thing (3, Insightful)

kawabago (551139) | about a year ago | (#43165259)

OSX is a prison that keeps getting smaller. Linux on the desktop is wonderful. Stable and easily configurable .

Re:There and back again (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165391)

Apparently you missed a project called macports. Or you know, using a proper testing environment in a VM before shipping off to production

Linux is better than AppleAnything (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165095)

You are an idiot. Linux comes to you in a dream as a Mac Luser and it scares you.

What is the point here? (4, Insightful)

stefaanh (189270) | about a year ago | (#43165109)

I just cannot figure out what this "question" is all about? You *apparently* *might* be part of a *possibly* large group of OS X people who *might* want to go using Windows?
Well, I just might not feel like answering this. My experience is that this type of questions are apparently suggestive, and only meant to be so.

since you asked... (3, Insightful)

Tom (822) | about a year ago | (#43165115)

You can have my Mac when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. :-)

I'm not going back. I'm exactly as you describe - my desktop runs OS X and my mobile devices run iOS, but my servers run Debian.

Neither of which is going to change. Specifically, you would have to shoot me before I use Windows as my work environment. I'm happy that I can run a very similar environment on my OS X and Debian machines, which makes development just so much easier. I boot Win7 once a decade or so when I want to play a windows-only game, though mostly I pick games available for OS X (Guild Wars 2, League of Legends, yeah!). Every time I have to use windows for anything other than launching the game I want to play, I cringe. It's just so... words fail me. I don't understand why it's not considered a violation of human rights.

You wanted emotions, there you got em. OS X is the best desktop I know. Debian Linux is the best server operating system I know. Windows is the best reason to shoot someone.

Re:since you asked... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165341)

You can have my Mac when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. :-)

I'm not going back. I'm exactly as you describe - my desktop runs OS X and my mobile devices run iOS, but my servers run Debian.

Neither of which is going to change. Specifically, you would have to shoot me before I use Windows as my work environment. I'm happy that I can run a very similar environment on my OS X and Debian machines, which makes development just so much easier. I boot Win7 once a decade or so when I want to play a windows-only game, though mostly I pick games available for OS X (Guild Wars 2, League of Legends, yeah!). Every time I have to use windows for anything other than launching the game I want to play, I cringe. It's just so... words fail me. I don't understand why it's not considered a violation of human rights.

You wanted emotions, there you got em. OS X is the best desktop I know. Debian Linux is the best server operating system I know. Windows is the best reason to shoot someone.

What exactly is so bad about Windows? To describe using it as torture, you must have some rational well considered reasons, which I am sure everyone would benefit from hearing.

Re:since you asked... (4, Insightful)

Geeky (90998) | about a year ago | (#43165379)

I just can't get that emotional about an OS. I ran Linux on the desktop from the late 90s until about 2006, when I started getting seriously into digital photography. I reached a point where I needed Photoshop and real colour management, which left me with the choice of Windows or Mac. I already had the PC hardware, so I went with Windows.

Every now and then I look at the latest iMacs and think... maybe. When I really think about it, I just can't justify the price difference. Windows XP just worked for me. Windows 7 just worked. I'm now using 8, and it just works. I have WAMP to get a nice simple stack for web development, I use perl and imagemagick for some batch processing of files, but get to use Lightroom and Photoshop for the real work. If I wanted a real command line I'd stick cygwin on.

The OS is just a launcher. OK, the metro start screen is a bit clunky, but most of the time I'm on the desktop with a few apps and a browser running. It makes absolutely no difference to me which OS I'm using at that point, as long as it runs the applications I need. Since Windows does it cheaper, I use Windows.

Re:since you asked... (1)

TrekkieGod (627867) | about a year ago | (#43165389)

You wanted emotions, there you got em. OS X is the best desktop I know. Debian Linux is the best server operating system I know. Windows is the best reason to shoot someone.

I'm not harping on you, because I believe taste is relative, and there's no right and wrong. Personally, however, I fall into the same camp as the submitter. OS X Leopard is the best desktop I know. It started getting worse with Snow Leopard, and by the time Lion came along, iOSsification had already made it unbearable.

When the second best choice, gnome 2, got dropped in favor of unity and gnome 3, Windows 7 got upgraded to best available option. Then Microsoft had to go all Metro on us. There's pretty much no current version of an UI in any OS that is acceptable to me anymore. The best you can do is KDE after spending a whole lot of time customizing it, because the default KDE is pretty awful as well.

End user control could be Linux' end-user entree (5, Insightful)

guanxi (216397) | about a year ago | (#43165121)

Disclaimer: This is a very speculative long shot ....

But it used to be that differences between platforms in terms of end user control were a matter of degree. Now with commercial operating systems moving rapidly away from that, with more closed systems, restricted app stores, secure boot, locked devices, disregard for privacy, etc., Linux has a much larger opportunity to distinguish itself on that feature (as well as the security that goes with it).

Don't wait for users to tell you they need it; that will be too late. Though privacy and control aren't so 'cool' now, I find it hard to believe that suddenly human beings will have permanently stopped caring about them. The pendulum could swing back, and if that happens you want Linux firmly associated with end user control and privacy in people's minds.

Plus, Linux could educate them simply by presenting an alternative. Few end users understand the value of end user control and openness.

Just stop it (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165123)

What you do with the tools is more important that the tools themselves.
You gave us no real idea what you got going on with your computer aside from some comment made about "heavy lifting and server work." If you can use any of the platforms just decide on one. I have a boot camped rMBP that I use and I'm more than happy with it. I'm not exactly sure what the iOSification of OSX is suppose to mean but it sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
BTW: My personal experience is that people who claim that they need a machine for "heavy lifting" just don't know how to make a reasonable computer do what they need it to do. Unless you're talking storage and if you're really using a full functioning computer for storage then you're just lost right out of the gate.

Win7 6to4 (0)

Jager Dave (1238106) | about a year ago | (#43165131)

If you go back to Win7 - make sure you disable the Microsoft forcibly-installed 6to4 adapter (just google it - there's plenty of posts about it) - because if you don't, and you're running an IPV4 home network, your linux box(es) will do nothing but complain.... I have an iPad, and two laptops - older of which I use primarily as a file server running Ubunti... when I went to Win7, I suddenly got crawling file transfer speeds, despite being on a hardwired full-duplex 100mbit network... once I disabled 6to4, it got happy again...

Re:Win7 6to4 (1)

Jager Dave (1238106) | about a year ago | (#43165147)

*Ubuntu - before some troll jumps on that. :D

iOS-ification? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165137)

First of all, I don't see a problem with iOS. Nor the incremental changes in OS X which give both a similar look or feel.

Adding an applications list with "folders" via expose is hardly iOS-ification.

Have I missed anything?

Re:iOS-ification? (3, Insightful)

tsa (15680) | about a year ago | (#43165257)

I also don't see the problem. A few changes to the UI and people scream and shout as if the world ends. Grow up, choose the tool you need and get to work.

There's only one choice for you in the long run (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165141)

You're leaving the Mac platform because you don't like the direction that platform seems to be headed, right? That's certainly an okay reason to try your luck elsewhere.

But you've already indicated with your "not Win8" comment that you ALSO don't like where the Windows platform is headed.

Windows 7 may be further from the hated future of the Windows OS than the current Mac OS is from the hated future of the Mac OS, and so Win7 may seem nicer for a while because of that. But in less than a decade Win7 will be orphaned for security updates and you're going to have to jump ship again to an OS you don't hate, and the only OS it looks like you're going to want to consider at that point is Linux.

It's time to dive into Linux and start learning what you like and how to make it work for you. Better now while you've got some lead time than in a few years when it becomes an emergency.

I don't understand... (1)

David Hughes (2865305) | about a year ago | (#43165143)

When Mac and Windows users complain that Linux doesn't work, I really don't know what they mean; my experience of late has been that I have fewer annoyances and more things just work, with little-to-no need for configuration when using Linux. (Computers in my household running a mixture of Win 7, 8 and Debian at the moment.)

A delight (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165145)

I went from OS X to Linux Mint with Cinnamon and, aside from some initial tearing in videos due to compositing, it has been a delight. Linux is great as long as you don't mind the occasional debug session.

I don't feel like a traitor (4, Insightful)

gnoshi (314933) | about a year ago | (#43165149)

I have used both Linux and Windows pretty extensively for my desktop system, and for servers (not always my choice). I love using Linux servers (specifically CentOS) - they perform well for the tasks I use them for, and they are rock solid.

I miss Linux on my Macbook Air probably about as often as I miss having Windows on my Macbook Air. There are plenty of things I don't like about Apple: expensive hardware often lagging on the performance-features front (e.g. USB3 took a while), their 'our way or get lost' approach, how truly awful Finder is (and it is truly awful), and all of the bollocks about 'It just works' (it mostly works). However, I can use the apps I need on it (e.g. Photoshop: and no, Gimp is not a replacement; MS Office: and no, OpenOffice is not a replacement). The touchpad functionality is brilliant (multi-touch, swiping, etc). Menu bars always at the top of the screen is genius, as it turns out. I don't need to deal with installing GTK+, QT, etc etc - although this is mainly just an artifact of the packaging system.

So in essence, I don't feel like a traitor. I feel like I'm using different OSs for different things based on their match to my needs. Mind you, I revisit Linux fairly regularly to check on how it is going as a desktop OS (and was one of the weird folk who didn't mind Gnome 3), and it is certainly getting better, but I always wind up back on OSX (or Windows, prior to that).

If I stop being able to install apps without the app store, or they all need to be digitally signed and approved by Apple, then you'll see me switching to something else faster than you can blink, but that's a ways off yet.

iOSification? (5, Insightful)

Kenshin (43036) | about a year ago | (#43165153)

The "iOSification" of OS X is overblown hyperbole at the moment. Yes, Apple's simplified some of the core apps like iPhoto. Yes, Apple's made the Calendar app fugly. They added the "Launchpad", which you never have to actually see unless you invoke it, and they added the Gatekeeper security feature, which you can switch off with a few clicks of the mouse.

They also recently got rid of the guy who was responsible for some of that stuff, so we may see a roll back on the nasty skeumorphic nonsense.

The core OS, and its UX in general, are still excellent, and every single app distributed outside of the App Store still have as much freedom as they used to.

Re:iOSification? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165297)

Fuck it man, Apple is putting their fruity arse iOS shit right in our faces now, when before we could remove a lot of it.

It's over, I returned my machine to 10.6.8 and moving to Windows 7

Gatekeeper and krAppStore are just more nails in the Mac's coffin they can have all of a few who like living in Disney World crap.

Windows 7 is a nice OS, mature looking and almost secure enough

Re:iOSification? (1, Informative)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about a year ago | (#43165337)

"The "iOSification" of OS X is overblown hyperbole at the moment. "

"Overblown hyperbole"??? They changed their whole UI to make it more iOS-like.

They made the scrollbars smaller, less colorful, and they actually disappear! They took the color out of Finder sidebar icons. They took visual progress feedback out of Mail. They took away some gestures that used to be there. And so on. I could go on for a while.

And *ALL* of those changes were both (A) intended to make OS X more like iOS, and (B) directly contrary to known computer-human interface principles.

The problem with Apple's approach is that instead of making iOS more like OS X, they decided to be bass-ackwards and make OS X more like iOS. Which is a STUPID approach. The idea is supposed to be to improve your new OS until it is as good as the old one, not to drag the old (and successful!) OS down to the level of some goddamned hand-held thing.

If it were "overblown hyperbole" you would not have people threatening to quit OS X over the issue... but quite a few have, and I have been tempted myself. I just may, if Apple doesn't pull its head out and start actually improving OS X again, rather than tearing it down.

Re:iOSification? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165417)

> and every single app distributed outside of the App Store still have as much freedom as they used to.
Once you learn how to disable that annoying security message. And learn to live with the popup that launches on the first launch of any app outside the app store. My worry is: they already stripped out X11 and made it a separate download, how long before they do the same to the terminal, bash, NFS, etc. You know, all the stuff that keeps it just appealing enough to geeks.

Well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165155)

I went from Linux to OS X around ~2006 and really haven't looked back. I use BSD / Linux for most server stuff but there is no way in hell you can make me go back to Linux to deal with messing with things to work, dealing with dependency hell and everything else. No gracias.

However, if Apple keeps trying to make it more iOS like I'll probably bitch and complain and I'll still use it because it'll still work out of the box and support far more on the desktop then Linux ever will. And yeah yeah, throw the Ubuntu blah blah blah out there and claim it works just as good as OS X in a desktop environment but I've been waiting for Linux to make a dent in the desktop arena since 1999 and I've given up on it and haven't looked back since. It's great for everything else, but it's not suited for the desktop yet and I doubt it ever will be.

if you are not happy with linux desktop os (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165159)

Do yourself a favor and get xubuntu. simple menus, ubuntu repositories. Looks like older mac os with the quicklaunch bar at the bottom and menu at the top.
install xubuntu-restricted-extras, VLC, virtualbox, gimp and libreoffice.
You got everything you need.

FIFY (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165173)

I'm angry enough at Apple, and wary enough of Linux, that I might just go to using PC-BSD for the desktop

Has a bigger troll ever been posted? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165179)

I may also be part of a large segment of that group now considering a return because of all the iOS-ification of OS X

What. The. F***.

despite the fact that the Linux desktop still falls short in the 'it just works' area

So usability aside...

I'm angry enough at Apple, and wary enough of Linux, that I might just go to using Windows 7 for the desktop (not Win8, however). What is the feeling/experience of other 'traitors' who run OS X for the desktop and Linux for everything else?"

you are looking at other operating systems for emotional reasons...
and people who use OS X as a desktop and other OS's for other reasons are "traitors" *roflsnort* WHAT?

This will not have any meaningful discussion, I promise you.

Same boat (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165197)

The iOSifcation of OS X is real frustrating. I run as many machines as I can on 10.6 (the best OS X version IMHO) for the time being and am not sure if I am going to move on to newer versions. However, for the average end-user the iOSification doesn't seem to matter as much. Sucks for me but they don't seem to mind. Managing a mixed environment can be a pain but JAMF's Caspar Suite (which is running on a Debian box) makes that relatively smooth. A move away from anything non OS X will anger a large user base of mine. Really, it's not our decision of IT alone to determine what we should run. It needs to coincide with the business vision and align with the finance departments foreseeable budget.

anger and fear are the enemies of good decisions (3, Insightful)

NemoinSpace (1118137) | about a year ago | (#43165205)

You're too smart for OS X. You're not geeky enough for Linux. Windows is just right for you. Be smart enough to ignore the lunkheads that can't figure out how to 7ize windows 8. It will make upgrading to Windows 9 that much easier. You can only hope that Microsoft doesn't totally screw up their cloud initiative. They've had plenty of time to learn from others, and they should be ready to roll. Office 365 is actually not as bad as I thought it would be. p.s. keep your old Linux box plugged in just in case. You will need it sooner or later.

The true cost of GNU/Linux is 'learning' (2)

ikhider (2837593) | about a year ago | (#43165215)

GNU/Linux is rewarding if you are willing to learn how the OS works. Rather than focus on a GUI, I would suggest you learn the command line which is the underlying system in any GNU/Linux distro. Once you know the command line, you can run Gentoo, Ubuntu, Slackware, whatever. Even if your GUI fails or gets glitchy, the command line will save you. Another benefit of GNU/Linux is that whenever a friend (who does not have a lot of money) gets a computer virus, an install of Ubuntu really sets them on the right track and they get amazed at all the cool, free software and pretty interface(s) to pick from. Not all people like learning or have the patience (it was frustrating for me the first year) but it paid off in the long run. I am not rich, but have all this great software for free and am doing things I never dreamed. I never thought I would edit audio, or design album covers because I cannot afford the industry standards. But software like Audacity, Gimp, Inkscape, Scribus gave me opportunities to do amazing things. I ran a record label and music distro biz on a shoe sting budget thanks to GNU/Linux. Apple/Windows still hold the industry standards, but free software seems to be catching up. So it really comes down to; do you want to spend money or time/patience? If you go with the latter, you may be the better off for it.

Fsck off Apple forever. MacBuntu + Linux Mint? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165223) []

Windows 7 for the commercial junk until support drops in 2020

Ubuntu Unity, OS X 10.7/10.8 and Windows 8 totally suck ass.

Touchscreen UI's do NOT belong on the desktop, neither do fingers on the screen, except on a tablet or phone.

Apple, Microsoft and Shuttleworth are all a bunch of baboons.

Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165227)

What does this mean, "iOS-ification"?

What are you looking for in a desktop? And where does the Linux desktop fall short for you?

I made the switch to full on Linux (from windows) in 2005, and never looked back. Fedora is my flavor of choice, and every year it gets better. I have had my fill of issues, and there have been some less then favorable fedora releases over the years. But overall it has given me an acceptable desktop environment for everything I do accept gaming. Both Apple and Microsoft pigeonhole you in doing 'it' there way; Apple too a much greater degree. And ultimately that's why I don't use those OS's.

Windows is for good-consumers who like shinny buttons. OSX is for "really cool" good-consumers that like shinny buttons. Linux is for men.


not a problem for me (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165231)

I moved to osx (from linux) about 2 years ago (home desktop; at work I'm still forced by the government to use Linux, unfortunately).
I don't see this "iOS-ification of OS X" as a problem. Most of if (if not all) you can simple avoid and use the old fashion way. What exactly bothers you so much? Still, the main reasons I don't use Linux as my desktop: Logic Pro, iMovie, iWeb. The "just works" is a big bonus too.

Toolsets (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165235)

Many years ago I participated in an interesting debate between a bunch of tekkies who were discussing the pro's and con's of Windows and Unix. One person made the comment that they liked that Windows had a common look and feel for everything, and so that once you'd learned how to perform a given task in one application, you could apply that knowledge elsewhere really easily. The counterpoint was that Windows was a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None", and Unix was described as "like a toolbox of small, sharp and well-honed tools that do precisely what is expected of them; no more, no less."

With hindsight, these still seem pretty valid today. Unfortunately, the OP doesn't really expand on their needs or the uses to which they apply a desktop machine. If their limit is email and basic office applications, then this isn't really an issue, is it? [ No shortage of tools on OS/X, Windows or Linux. However, if the OP needed to do exceptionally high quality photo editing, or highly precise desktop publishing, the the decision of the OS starts to simplify. Here we go back to the "small sharp tool" analogy.

So... Forget about recursive discussions on the relative merits of different OS platforms. Before you get there, you need to have a really good think about what you are going to need to do on the desktop, and go from there. I respectfully think that you need to start with your Business Requirements before you can get into Solution Design...

subject, subject, subject. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165261)

Apple should have died along with the other motorola hardware.

Stay with OS X (1)

thirdpoliceman (1350013) | about a year ago | (#43165265)

I started using OSX in 2010, and like you I still use Linux. For the most part, I use Linux to develop software and for data munging. I'm still good with OS X. If they get rid of Terminal then I am done. Until then, I can do most anything I need on OS X that I can on my Linux box. The difference being, I don't have the same ease of use for all the Open Source projects on OS X that I do on Linux.

I'm fine with OS X moving towards an iOS interface. So far they are maintaining the ability to work around the interface. I have yet to encounter any limitations that cannot be bypassed. I also use OS X because it works without me having to maintain it. When I was in high school, I had days to spend screwing around with Slackware, and I learned a lot doing it. But, I no longer want to mess with setting things up just so I can get to the point where I start doing my actual activities. Which is one reason I moved away from Slackware to Ubuntu.

I've used Ubuntu on the desktop, and it is fairly good. But, there are still problems. A number of times I would have to kill the Synaptic Update system and do a manual apt-get update apt-get upgrade. Not sure why the GUI version wasn't working, and these days I no longer care. I don't have time to figure that out. As well, my network card would not alway be enabled when I booted my Lenovo R61 Thinkpad. This was in 2011. I bought the Thinkpad in 2007. Its hardware is old enough that it should just work at this point. To fix it, I would have to reload the card's module. There may be other issues I had. I can't remember any right now though.

My point is, I want my personal computer to turn on and work. I don't want to spend time configuring it. I realize I am betraying, in some sense, the Stallman Free Software ethic, that, in large part, is responsible for the programming skills I enjoy today. I have contributed to an Open Source project recently. And, I intend to do so in the future. But, I have become a pragmatist rather than an idealist in my thoughts on Free Software.

As for moving to Windows, I see no sense in that. Unless you want to use Cygwin or something like that, and those projects may be more mature now, but Windows is so far removed from the Unix philosophy that it is painful to use. At least in OS X, I can still pipe individual programs together to generate something useful.

My PoV (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165293)

I switched over from linux to OSX, here's what I found out:

Apple wins at:
- Setup is way longer in Linux (No surprise). OSX was pretty quick thanks to google integration and good defaults (i.e for the trackpad).
- Applications. Work uses Go2Meeting and others, so I'm a bit stuck with that. I don't like dual booting, so OSX was my best shot.
- The hardware is really good. I do not regret having paid the price for a retina, since I use it a real lot, on the go and at home. This isn't really about OSX, but I wouldn't mind having an Apple laptop with Linux as the main OS. That's if the price isn't too much of a problem, I guess.

Linux wins at:
- Compliance to my development work. Rarely have any problems installing anything from source. With OSX you can expect a problem whenever you try that.
- Linux, in my experience, is much less buggy. OSX works in very narrow setups, but will recklessly bug everywhere as soon as external monitors are involved with my laptop.
- Customisation, if you're that kind of guy.

Now, if you're a developer or other IT professional, I recommend some good flavor of linux nowadays (Arch, Debian, Gentoo...)
OSX is good, but it's in decline if you ask me. They aren't doing any real improvement that will matter for me, and we see more and more software being ported to Linux, so it only gets better. The stuff is all locked-in to iCloud and iOS, and even having an iPad, I don't want that. I much prefer having my notes on Evernote or google for example, rather than using the very limited Apple solutions. Whenever you get a bit serious in any usage, you'll see apple falling short quite often.

Drafts being saved in like 40 duplicates by default on google? Check
Same for notes? Check.
Reminders only sync on iOS? Check
Calendar randomly resets own settings as it syncs up to Facebook while I specified it shouldn't? Check.
iTunes missing many audio formats? Check

That's the tip of the iceberg. I'd rather choose my own solutions rather than being bloated with completely useless software that I can't delete.

Could you tell me more about the iOS-ification? (1)

TwineLogic (1679802) | about a year ago | (#43165335)

I've been thinking that I might like to own a retina Macbook. My reasons are: the good screen, the BSD-based OS, a professionally-made desktop environment.

What is this "iOS-ification" of the Mac you write about? Is Apple making changes to close the platform to non-Xcode development?

Tell me more.

Applications (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165367)

It really is about Applications. Linux does not have them 'All'. .... or putting it in more plain terms, Linux can't run ANY software that is available from the retail (or online) stores.

Have it ALL: VMs (1)

BoRegardless (721219) | about a year ago | (#43165371)

Use whatever you want when you want...

I did come back (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165373)

I switched from Linux to OS X in 2003. I switched back in 2011. My reasons were (roughly in order of importance):

- The package managers suck. Yes, all of them. Compiling packages from sources is a huge waste of time, and at least back then, the management of the Mac package manager projects was amateurish at best (read: stuff breaking all the time).

- I needed a new computer, and at the time Apple didn't make one I liked.

- Apple's generally worsening "our way or the highway" attitude; Everything Just Works as long as your needs line up neatly with what Apple provides. When they don't, you're better off in Linux where you can at least more easily tear open and patch anything you need to.

I'm using Arch Linux now. Not because I enjoy tinkering with my OS, but because I don't. It was a pain in the ass to set up (who the fuck decided it was a good idea to get rid of the installer altogether?), but now I have everything working pretty much exactly the way I need it to, and as long as I take a few minutes to read about major system changes every few months or so, it's rolling smoothly. I've had nothing but bad experiences with the supposedly user-friendly distros.

I use both...and am looking for a better option! (3, Interesting)

Midnight_Falcon (2432802) | about a year ago | (#43165375)

Brief background: I've been using Linux since Slackware '96, with kernel version 1.0.0. I prefer using Linux for servers, but often have used Windows in cases where it presents some advantage (like using Active Directory so I can govern Windows desktops, etc)., and most environments I've worked in have become mixed Linux/Windows environments. Still, I am known much moreso for my *nix talents and content to leave Windows to the armies of Windows sysadmins out there.

For a while now at work, I've been using Windows 7. Using KiTTY (or PuTTY) I can generally work well with unix systems, and the Windows system gives me an environment like a normal user, which helps in reproducing issues, etc. The downside is, well, it's still Windows and prone to quirky issues, e.g. problems caused by Windows update, wanting to reboot more often than I'd like..

At home, I use Mac OS X rather than Windows 7. I run a custom-built hackintosh pro system (built late last year, i7-ivy bridge type). Using Mac OS X, I can still interact with systems I need to (using CoRD for Windows Remote Desktop), and it runs all the other programs I need elegantly. It also doesn't need reboots very often and is quite a stable system.

However, I too have been looking for a solution now that Apple is moving in the iOS-y direction for OS X, in terms of a system that lets me keep the awesome BSD power of Mac OS without being confined to Apple's walled garden of App Store restrictions etc.

Linux doesn't work as a Desktop environment for me for a lot of reasons, despite the fact I love Linux. It requires too much overhead to install software (packages, dependencies, etc), often doesn't run software I need (and/or open source equivalents fail to install on my distro, etc etc), and the end-user experience in X windows is generally clunky and not nearly as elegant/streamlined as Mac or Windows. A lot of open source products that do work are second-best to the product you could use on a desktop -- e.g. Microsoft Word on Mac and Windows vs OpenOffice on Linux. It'll work most of the time, but sometimes, it'll be a problem. I'm not a one man team and I work with people using Windows and Mac -- so I have to accomodate. In order to work in Linux, I'd have to have a VM running Windows or Mac -- and that kind of defeats the purpose of Linux.

So, in short, I am searching for an operating system that has the nice interface and POSIX-compliant backend of Mac OS, the openness of Linux, and runs all the software Windows can. Will a solution ever exist? :)

Found a better iTunes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165387)

When I went back to Linux I found Miro, which has been much better for me at organizing videos and podcasts than iTunes ever was.

Even though visually Linux isn't as beautiful as OS X, there are pleasant little surprises once you really get into Linux.

Tried to migrate TO OS X... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165393)

I have tried to migrate TO OS X a couple of times (from Linux) actually. The first time was right after Intel CPU change over. Bought a MacBook Pro. By far, things didn't "just work" on Mac OS X then. Finally gave up after a couple of months and sold the machine for a $700 loss.

A year ago I got my job to buy a MacBook Pro. Had it around for a few months. Things were better in the just works department, as far as browsing, e-mail and Netflix went. However, a lot of things that I needed as a developer (Java, Python, Web) were a hassle on OS X. There just wasn't a good enough reason to switch to OS X. Then I changed jobs and returned the MacBook Pro. No regrets.

Apple Anger (3, Insightful)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about a year ago | (#43165397)

Hold fast to your Apple anger. It is liberating.

I divested myself of Apple shares in early 2012 to finance my daughter's education, and now I'm comfortable wishing ruin upon them without fear.

The choices they make are anti-consumer, anti-competitive and anti-free market. It pleases me that they've lost nearly 1/2 of their value.

As someone who was a great fan of Apple computers going back to before the first Macintosh, I find their current direction extremely disappointing and destructive.

What doesn't work? (2, Interesting)

HangingChad (677530) | about a year ago | (#43165413)

I've used a Ubuntu desktop for years and make my living working online. I use it because it just works. Once I get my desktop setup right it stays that way.

Maybe someone could explain what's not working so I know what I'm missing.

Windows (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43165415)

Microsoft has done a great job improving the reliability of Windows over the last decade. Windows Vista and 7 now just work fine after a few years of service packs. With Windows, little things like cheaper printers, scanners, and wifi just work. There is lots of commercial software, including video games, out there that works. Changing screen resolutions and sound are easy. For a Desktop Environment that just works at the end of the day, Windows on a quality, lower performance intel box is a good, affordable way to go.

But, when I want to get coding done and don't care about sound and scanners, Linux it is.

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