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Voyager Eulogy

timothy posted more than 13 years ago | from the so-long-farewell-now-beam-down-my-clothes dept.

Television 333

Chris DiBona writes with his "Voyager Eulogy" (below), commemorating (if not exactly celebrating) the end of the series that took the Star Trek world from the 25th century into the 21st. He does warn the reader regarding spoilers: "I do mention some, but they are clearly delineated."


When Voyager first came out I sort of considered it the red-headed stepchild of the franchise. It's premise, that the Voyager had been thrown 70k light years into the Delta Quadrant by "The Caretaker" and that it would take 75 years to return, was in my mind contrived and inconsistent with the model of physics that the Franchise had embraced. (There is no way it would have taken that long to return using high warp, remembering the restriction of high warp speeds was enacted by the federation only after Voyager was deemed lost).

So, like many, I ignored the show until much later in the franchise's lifespan. (It wasn't a coincidence that I started "catching up" with Voyager only after I purchased a Tivo.) I figured, what the heck, and put a season pass on the show. After watching it, I noticed that, like many of the Star Trek series, it had just needed to get its legs and have its characters get comfortable with the roles and the mixed bag of writing that came from the incredible hunk of crap that is Berman/Braga's idea clump (I won't grace them by saying they have brains).

That said, I started to enjoy Voyager, and I even came to like and look forward to watching it. I still do look forward to seeing the episodes I missed, as I'll just continue to exercise my denial over what the evil bastards at Paramount have done to the franchise to service my need to watch starships blowing stuff up. (Something DS9 served well in it's later seasons).

Seeing the season finale, I realize now that while I enjoy the series, I wish you could thumbs down particular ideas in the Tivo. Specifically, I'd like the ability to make it impossible to watch any Star Trek show that has anything to do with:

  • Time Travel
  • The Holodeck
  • Super Smart/Psychic characters
  • The Doctor getting reprogrammed by the nebbish aliens.

What happened to the writing that brought us The Wrath of Khan, for god's sake?

My beef with modern Star Trek aside, what made this particular episode of Voyager so disappointing? The use of time travel in the season finale, combined with reminding us of the logically inconsistent existence of the Borg Queen (played by the really great and terrifically creepy Alice Krieg, from First Contact), and frankly a lazy approach to ending the series, having the characters do things counter to their established ethics and morals to bring the ship home and wrap up the series.

Slight Spoiler
Also, the use of advanced weapons of the future to make it easy to deal with the borg was like playing Doom in god mode, pretty but boring, and in the end, pathetic.
End Spoiler

A pretty concise description of the poorly titled Endgame can be found here on the LogBook.

In the end, you'll feel like Voyager deserved a better ending and the Franchise, a better show. I think the tombstone on the series should read "Selectively enjoyed, despite itself." I'm afraid the same will be said about Enterprise, 7 seasons after its debut.

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Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#194548)

933.4 times the speed of light == warp 933.4

Unfortunately warp speed doesn't work that way ;) In the Trek universe Warp speed is exponential. According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia warp factor 9.99 is 8.48 Trillion Km's per Hour... at that speed, to travel 10,000 lightyears takes 1 year... (At that speed they could've been home in 7 years - but we all know that Voyager can barely push that speed, let alone sustatin it!)

A normal cruising speed for the current vessels is about Warp 8 - which makes it roughly 10 years to travel 10,000 lightyears... Using that 70 years or so seems about right.. (That is of course, if they decided to keep going in a straight line.... Sure they might get home quicker - but who'd be watching it?)

Oh and slightly off topic - if you enjoy Trek (and especially a good laugh) be sure to check out ev Trek [sev.com.au] - the best Trek Parody around..

Rotating egg on Shiny Thing (1)

Iffy Bonzoolie (1621) | more than 13 years ago | (#194553)

Well, when you use the Infinite Improbability Drive, occupying every point in the universe simultaneously often does strange things like converting missiles into a bowl of petunias and a large sperm whale. So I could imagine it turning you into a giant lizard, too.

Re:TNG and DS9 vs VOY (1)

Radnor (4434) | more than 13 years ago | (#194560)

If the Federation develops time travel, then there's nothing to stop their peaceful existence, and there's nothing left to drive Star Trek.
The Federation supposedly does do this-- it was shown on Voyager in a few episodes. Captain Braxton and his Time Traveling Adventures! Time travel is very confusing, so I hope they stay away from it unless they settle on a concrete method of explaining things to the average star trek viewer.

I now understand Robert Beltran... (1)

Radnor (4434) | more than 13 years ago | (#194561)

I've been reading up on how Robert Beltran, the actor who played Chakotay, pretty much didn't care much for his role on Voyager. I frankly expected a lot more from the finale episode. An episode which was supposed to tie up all the loose ends. If anything, it left more loose ends than we had before!

I quote Mr. Beltran from an online transcript of one of his appearances, talking about the episode in which Kes returns (read here [robertbeltran.com] :
"...it was just the same old indication of
our writers and producers having their head firmly up their collective ass."

Re:Die Star Trek Die (1)

LWolenczak (10527) | more than 13 years ago | (#194574)

TOS was not made by Paramount, it was made by Desi-Lue (spelling?) studios.... the same people that brought you "Lucy... I'm home...".

Re:i just watched it (1)

Jen_nifer (13609) | more than 13 years ago | (#194580)

Neelix left in the third-last or second-last episode. He stayed behind to act as an embassador for the Federation in the Delta quadrant at a planet where there were other Talaxians (sp?) living.

Janeway gave him the push he wanted to stay with the Talaxians by saying that now, since they were in contact with the Federation while in the Delta quadrant that an embassador would be wanted by the Federation.

Re: Dyson Sphere size (1)

Gilmoure (18428) | more than 13 years ago | (#194581)

From what I remember of Larry Niven's writing (inventor of the Ringworld), a Dyson sphere's interior surface would be about three billion times that of Earth's, if built at Earth's orbit. The Ringworld was only 100,000 (?) miles wide (width of surface, not overall diameter) and had a surface area of three million Earths. I read Niven's essay on extreme space stuctures about 10 years ago so my numbers are likely off.

TNG, 7th season, 'Force of Nature'... (1)

GI Jones (21552) | more than 13 years ago | (#194583)

Some people have explained the nature of this episode [caltech.edu] that forced warp restriction. Clearly an environmental message, this was an episode where an alien scientist committed suicide to prove her seemingly improvable theory that warp-fields were damaging space and would eventually create sub-space rifts (AKA: holes in the ozone?). The debate was that nothing could be proven and more research would have to be done before the galaxy begin to abandon technology that support their way of life. Anyway, after the enterprise is trapped in the sub space rift created by the scientist (and their obligatory narrow escape), bans were placed restricting warp usage in heavily trafficked corridors of space. There may have been other episodes that dealt with this issue, but I saw this one last week and it is fresh in my mind.

Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (1)

someguy (23968) | more than 13 years ago | (#194585)

I believe the warp levels work out like the ratings for earthquakes do. Each successive full rating is 10 times more extreme than the previous. So warp 7 would be 100 times faster than warp 5, etc.

Final Episode (1)

jrs (27486) | more than 13 years ago | (#194586)

If the 26 year later janeway came back in time to help the current crew get home earlier with 26 year later technology, wouldn't this not happen with the current crew getting home earlier?

Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (1)

BRTB (30272) | more than 13 years ago | (#194588)

Not sure which scale that is, but on the real one warp 933.4 kinda doesn't exist =]

The warp scale used in TNG and beyond [princeton.edu] is exponential, where warp "1" is equivalent to light-speed (c), warp "8" is [1,024 x (c)] and warp 10 (which requires infinite energy and makes the traveller occupy all points of space at once, btw) is an infinite speed.

The 75-year timeframe either assumes a cruising-without-engine-damage speed of warp 8.x, or a higher travelling speed above warp 9 but factoring in regular maintenance stops.

Ya know, maybe I should stop those IRC startrek sims and get some real work done, lol... ::shuts off the holodeck and returns to helm duty::
BRTB

Thanks... great review, I appreciate (1)

kazuma (53699) | more than 13 years ago | (#194594)

Except that you shout tell TiVO to even remove all the episode where Voyager has been saved by 'superwoman-janeway-i-know-everything-i-do-everyth ing-i-fix-everything". Sometimes she really had the bad attitude...

At one point, during Endgame, I wondered myself why the rest of the crew was still on board. A ship with two Janeway was absolutely impossible to defeat, or even attack... You think that the weapons of the future eas like playing Doom in God Mode? No, I think that having two janeway wor even more cheating than that... hehehe

But I think that if you remove from the series your 4 points, and mine, there are very few remaining episodes...

The big challenge for them will be the new Serie "Enterprise"... will see.

Thanks again, man, great review !

Re:Final Episode (1)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#194599)

If the 26 year later janeway came back in time to help the current crew get home earlier with 26 year later technology, wouldn't this not happen with the current crew getting home earlier?

Shh!

The Borg queen might hear you!

Re:Galaxy Class Starships (1)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#194600)

Was it me, or were there too many galaxy class starships (Next Generation Enterprise NCC-1701D type)? I thought there were only 2 made: the Yamato (which was lost in a TNG episode) and the Enterprise. In the final episode there were a few more to greet the Voyager...

I'm pretty sure the Galaxy class starships would have had a USS Galaxy as their class ship. :-)

Re:The day I realized Trek sucked (1)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#194601)

It was that episode of Next Generation that guest starred Jimmy Dewhan (Scotty). In the climax scene, Scotty and Laforge were trapped on a space ship being crushed by these huge doors.

I couldn't buy the "the Dyson Sphere builders must have abandoned it because of the solar flares" explanation.

If someone had the technology to build that kind of structure in the first place, that would be like abandoning a new house because the furnace's pilot light needed adjustment.

Re:Come on... (1)

LRJ (71361) | more than 13 years ago | (#194607)

and every single episode ended up with Kirk getting the hook-up with some freaky alien chick.
This is exactly what makes the first series the best to me. Kirk didn't mess around with negotiations and peacful resolutions - 'BLAST them and take their women' was his moto.

The day I realized Trek sucked (1)

selectspec (74651) | more than 13 years ago | (#194609)

It was that episode of Next Generation that guest starred Jimmy Dewhan (Scotty). In the climax scene, Scotty and Laforge were trapped on a space ship being crushed by these huge doors. The Enterprize rushes in to save them. The only things keeping Scotty's craft in one piece are the shields. The Enterprize then BEAMS Scotty and Laforge throught the shields onto the saftey of the Enterprize. Now, the golden rule of Star Trek from day one, was "You Can't Beam Through Shields". They made up some bullshit reason why they were able to beam through the shields but it didn't matter. My heart was broken, and I never watched an episode since.

Come on... (1)

Wind_Walker (83965) | more than 13 years ago | (#194611)

You can't honestly tell me that the original Star Trek was that great. I mean, come on!. It was incredibly cheesy, and every single episode ended up with Kirk getting the hook-up with some freaky alien chick.

I think that what's happening is people are remembering with too much nostalga the old Trek series. It's kinda like whenever I watch Wargames or Tron. Those movies SUCK. Still, though, I get a lot of kicks watching them and I watch them as often as possible.

It's one thing to say "The old series was much better", but it's another thing to say "The old series was better because that's how I remember it".

------
That's just the way it is

Re:I'm ashamed to admit it (1)

TummyX (84871) | more than 13 years ago | (#194612)

How did you get 3 insightful?

The warp 5 limitation was cause warp drives were tearing the fabric of space time.

Going at high warp speeds doesn't send you back in time. Going faster than warp 10 theoretically would (in the star trek universe).

Re:TNG and DS9 vs VOY (1)

dwj (91832) | more than 13 years ago | (#194619)

In First Contact, the Borg do indeed head straight for Earth. Unfortunately, they forgot to time warp to the Cochran era first before any Enterprise showed up to follow them. That sucking sound I hear must be a Plot Hole.

Agree to disagree.... (1)

Pedrito (94783) | more than 13 years ago | (#194621)

I will have to disagree with a lot of what's been said. I started watching the original Star Trek when I was a young kid. My step-mother was a fan, and she turned me into a sci-fi nut introducing me to both Star Trek and Asimov.

When TNG came out, I was pretty disappointed. In fact, I think I skipped the entire first season after Mission to Farpoint.

Something happened in the second season, though. The characters seemed to find themselves and a balance. The stories improved. I was hooked. When I moved to Mexico, I had almost 100 episodes of TNG on video tape with me. I watched at least 3 episodes a week while I was there.

Shortly before I left for Mexico, the first season of Voyager was wrapping up. I had pretty much ignored it until the season finale and the first episode of the second season. Then I was hooked. I'm no catching up on the episodes that I missed while I was in Mexico.

I admit, the season finale was incredibly disappointing. I was pretty put off. Still, though, I enjoy a lot of the rerun episodes that I catch, and I'll continue to watch them while they're on.

I can't say the same for DS9. Something about it just doesn't really do it for me. I can't put my finger on it. I watch it occasionally and even enjoy it occasionally, but TNG and Voyager were by far, superior.

TNG had a great final episode, and I guess that added to the disappointment of Voyager's last episode. What I didn't like about TNG, though, were the motion pictures that followed. The characters, particularly Riker, Data, and Troi, don't seem to take it seriously at all in the motion pictures. It's almost like they're just there to party and get a paycheck. Sorry, that spoils it for me.

I have to say that the premise for Enterprise doesn't really appeal to me. Like Voyager and TNG, I'll probably watch the first episode or two, and then wait for things to come around in the second season.

Maybe I'll be pleasantly suprised, but right now, I'm doubting it... Sorry, but I had to throw in my $0.02.

Promotions... (1)

Snowbeam (96416) | more than 13 years ago | (#194626)

Why is it that every captain so far has become an Admiral within 20 years? I remember when they had the ranks of "Commodore", which was lost from ST:TNG onwards. I am sure there are several other ranks whihc they skip past an dit demeans the rank of Captain to being a lowly rank and that of admiral as easily attainable.
---------
- [Darth] Snowbeam

Re:When is this likely to be shown in the UK? (1)

emir (111909) | more than 13 years ago | (#194633)

goto #freevideo on efnet and get it from there :) they have it usually in divX format

Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (1)

IAmSancho (119617) | more than 13 years ago | (#194640)

Hmm, let's see : 70000 light years, 75 years to return, 70000/75 ~= 933.4 times the speed of light == warp 933.4 in the Star Trek model of "physics".

The Warp Scale for measuring speed is a log scale, similar to the Richter Scale for measuring earthquake intensity. I.E.: the difference between Warp 9 and Warp 8 is significantly greater than the difference between Warp 1 (the speed of light, c) and Warp 2.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (1)

bergee (127122) | more than 13 years ago | (#194643)

It was in one of the later Next Generation episodes (called Force Of Nature) that they came up with the limit of warp five. Check out http://www.startrek.com/library/episodes_tng_detai l.asp?ID=68628 [startrek.com] to see a description.

Why were characters always "possessed"? (1)

Greg151 (132824) | more than 13 years ago | (#194644)

My complaint is that main characters would become "Possessed", and then flake out. This plot device was used in TNG, DS9, and Voyager. How many times did Data act irrationally, only to find out that something had taken him over and he was not responsible for sodemizing the warp coil. Same with the other episodes. Whichever writer came up with this deserves to be "Possessed" by some angry fans.

Re:Galaxy Class Starships (1)

elving (133577) | more than 13 years ago | (#194645)

<geek> The Galaxy, Yamato, and Enterprise were the first Galaxy class starships and were constructed at roughly the same time. However, a number of Galaxy class starships have been built since then. </geek>

i just watched it (1)

digitalsushi (137809) | more than 13 years ago | (#194649)

i just watched a tape i made of it again... now, they started the thing at 8 pm, cause it was a double episode. i always thought it was really stupid for them to do it, cause EVERY SINGLE TIME they do that, I miss it. I think it would have been much smarter to start at 9 and go til 11. Sure, kids watch it, but the kids that watch it can stay up til 11. Or if they have to go to bed, at least they still wouldn't have missed the first hour. So I only saw 44 minutes of it, or whatever it trickles down to after commercials. You know what? I still haven't seen the first half, and I don't think it mattered at all. Short of wondering where Neelix was after seeing the last half TWICE (yeah, he musta been a favorite of mine) I think had the first half figured out within the first 15 seconds. I still don't know what happened in the first half, so if someone wants to tell me I actually missed something, please.

ever get sick of something and give up? (1)

digitalsushi (137809) | more than 13 years ago | (#194650)

I could liken how I imagine the producers/writers felt to living up here in the North East... You get a giant blizzard (I believe the local term is "No'Eastah'byGod"), getting dressed up, shoveling the walk to get to the driveway, shoveling the driveway, and making it all the way down the last 8 feet til the street starts. You give up, hop in your car, and gun it backwards down the driveway. The car gets stuck, ALMOST all of the way through. You climb out through the sun roof, see that the car isn't going to get hit by oncoming traffic, declaring out loud "Ah forget it!", and walking back into the house so that you can feed your kids Ramen Noodles. Umm.. and stick some time travel in there. That makes my point sound a lot better. Thanks

DO NOT CLICK ON LINK (1)

compupc1 (138208) | more than 13 years ago | (#194651)

This guy is a troll. The link reveals a picture of two naked guys giving anal and oral sex to a toy barney doll. Sick, if I may say so. I suppose if this sort of thing makes you happy, go for it, but personally I wish I haden't clicked on it.

Re:DO NOT CLICK ON LINK (1)

compupc1 (138208) | more than 13 years ago | (#194652)

Anybody with the least bit of restraint will not click on it. I would rather be warned. Fortunately, it has now been modded down.

Moral Conflicts (1)

coolgeek (140561) | more than 13 years ago | (#194654)

I disagree with Chris re: the characters doing things they were against their established morals . Sure, Janeway disregarding the Temporal Prime Directive appears to be in conflict with her previously established morals, yet I believe she would defer to the wisdom of an older self come to visit from the future. Harry Kim allowing the future Admiral Janeway to embark on the mission in the first place is consistent with his established morals; he previously time-travelled to rescue Voyager from being buried on the ice planet.

I do agree though that the writing seemed somewhat flimsy. I was disappointed by them actually returning home, I felt there would be good opportunities for Voyager movies if they left the ship in the Delta quadrant. I guess in the next 20 years, we'll get some more TNG movies, then it will be only "Enterprise". I have always been willing to watch Star Trek series from the start until they get up and running and get good. I am not so sure I will want to watch Enterprise. In my mind, its kind of like going for a ride in a `55 Chevy after being used to a `95 GTI. Sure, it's a cool ride, but I like my power windows and air conditioning.

Re:Menagerie? (1)

coolgeek (140561) | more than 13 years ago | (#194655)

Yeah dude, and Number One was HOT! I think Majel is much more attractive as a brunette.

Re:My take... (1)

coolgeek (140561) | more than 13 years ago | (#194656)

DS9 was a much better finale in terms of closure.

Re:Gotta add my $0.02 worth (1)

mobius_stripper (144347) | more than 13 years ago | (#194658)

Now that I've become used to the characters, it's kind of dissappointing that the next series will be set two hundred years before Voyager... guess that leaves out any option for cameo appearanes, with the possible exception of Q. Oh, well, time goes on.

There's always time travel. ;)

Krishna

For what it's worth.... (1)

vandelais (164490) | more than 13 years ago | (#194671)

Thank you, Robert Picardo. Your efforts were appreciated.

Re:similar solutions (1)

de Selby (167520) | more than 13 years ago | (#194678)

How about "reverse the polarity" or "match the frequency"... That got annoying.

And what about the improvements they kept making to the sheilds and weapons to counter specific foes; but only existed in single episodes? Why not keep the changes and continue with them?

Re:It's only ENTERTAINMENT! (1)

DarrylM (170047) | more than 13 years ago | (#194680)

Two words:

Thank you! :-)

Re:I'm ashamed to admit it (1)

duffbeer703 (177751) | more than 13 years ago | (#194684)

Dude,

you know waay too much about this.

Re:TNG, 7th season, 'Force of Nature'... (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 13 years ago | (#194697)

Mod up! It was this episode. I recall warp 5 is the hightest speed allowed unless in emergencies stated by the federation.

Re:Galaxy Class Starships (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | more than 13 years ago | (#194698)

The borg nearly wiped them out all of star fleets vessels. After this I assume they rebuilt there whole fleet and invested in huge ships to defend themselves agaisnt another attack.

Science Fiction benefits technology... (1)

percey (217659) | more than 13 years ago | (#194707)

I watched voyager off and on during the span of the series. I happened to have thought that DS9 had superior writing and actors. The problem with voyager, besides the writing, was the saturation of Star Trek during its run. Additionally if it weren't for Star Trek, I'm sure that Palms would look a lot less like communicators. The problem with Star Trek is this, and perhaps this is a product of the times (local, not stardate) that each series has occured in, but the show used to be more about a utopian government, enabled through technology, and now it has just degraded into nothing deeper than explosion scenes, and shots of 7 of 9. There was always something underneath the surface in the first two shows, and although critics would say that its just flashy graphics and a waste of time, I could say no, and that there was always a moral to take away from the shows. And I wonder if the changes don't have something to do with our recent technological growth. After all what we have now in some cases surpasses even the technology of the enterprise. Sure there's no phasers and no photon torpedoes, but where's their AIM? Definitely our communications channels are much, much better. Video conferencing and all. Okay, so our android technology only reaches that of Battlestar Galactica (i.e. that robotic dog from sony) but in a few years... I always respected the old series for its sense of awareness of social problems in the country at that time. I hope the new series has more of that. What I'm trying to say is that I feel that the idea that this could possibly be our future (which is a premise of this type of science fiction) well it just seems more and more far fetched with each series, and therefore its more and more difficult to suspend disbelief and get into the show. If you add that to the fact that there were no "heroic" characters in Voyager that you could really respect its no wonder why the show is probably the least favorite of all the Star Trek shows.

High Warp Restriction? (1)

mojo-raisin (223411) | more than 13 years ago | (#194714)

What is this "restriction of high warp speeds... enacted by the federation."

Was this from DS9? What was the reason?

Re:High Warp Restriction? (1)

MrBlue VT (245806) | more than 13 years ago | (#194722)

You can never go faster than the speed of light, no matter what point of view you have. Imagine two particles of light heading straight towards each other. Each of them sees the other particle moving at only the speed of light. Read Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time for a much better explaination of why this is so.

Re:Just enjoy it... (1)

aronc (258501) | more than 13 years ago | (#194724)

I can, and often do, set aside picking nits to enjoy a good romp through space, or fantasy, or action sequences, or whatever. But Voyager had problems far beyond the nits. The writing was some of the worst on TV this side of the WWF. I tried for all 7 years of it's run to like it. I really did. And, yes, there were a few good episodes here and there. On the whole, however, I couldn't even finish watching most of them. Sadly the finally fell into that catagory.

Voyager: Unimaginative; STTNG: Thought-Provoking (1)

PM4RK5 (265536) | more than 13 years ago | (#194727)

I honestly have to disagree with this. I will say, first, that I really disliked the voyager series. Part of it was that after the first episode, the whole idea of getting blown 75,000 light years into the Delta Quadrant was a little much to swallow. Something like that would never have happened in the STTNG series.

Personally, I preferred the personality of Picard, Riker, and the rest of the TNG crew much better. What I didn't like about Voyager is since they were constantly moving home, they never really visited the same place twice. At least from the original to TNG, they kept some similarities such as Vulcans and Klingons to name a few. Also in STTNG, if you watched the series, places like the Neutral Zone showed up multiple times. But in Voyager, with them getting blown into the Delta Quadrant, there was nothing like that; you never saw the same place twice (or at least it was rare).

Overall, Star Trek: The Next Generation was by far a better series than the newer Voyager. I hope that Enterprise is a better series for the survival of the Star Trek 'Franchise.' If they crank out another cheesy series like Voyager, I still won't watch, and I'm sure many people will begin to loose interest as they did between STTNG and Voayager.

Re:When is this likely to be shown in the UK? (1)

bigbadwlf (304883) | more than 13 years ago | (#194731)

As a matter of fact, it is available in DivX.
No idea where to get it though, nosiree.

Re:Moral Conflicts (1)

bigbadwlf (304883) | more than 13 years ago | (#194732)

I thought the same thing for a while. After giving it some thought, it may not be so bad... after all, they'll still be using today's technology for the special effects. Keeping that in mind, I won't dismiss it just because it's about an era 100 years or so before TOS.
Besides, it should be neat to see some of the transition from Cochran's Phoenix to Kirk's Enterprise.

Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (1)

Nitewing98 (308560) | more than 13 years ago | (#194737)

Ok, I admit I'm old enough that I remember the original series (TOS) and owned several of the model kits (including the cheesy Enterprise with the lights inside -- the lights were so bright they shone through the plastic instead of the windows...). That said, and not that I'm an authority, I recall the actual warp formula was n^3 x c (the warp number cubed time light speed). This puts warp 9 at 729 x light speed and warp 10 at 1000 times c. This would put the distance involved within the correct parameters. Now that we've cleared that up, I enjoyed the final episode, but not near as much as "All Good Things" the final TNG episode. I thought that Kate Mulgrew did a wonderful job of differentiating the older and younger Janeways, with the older one authoritative, hard bitten, and cynical and the younger more idealistic and unwilling to call down her older self until she could no longer avoid it. From a character standpoint, it was well-written, I thought. That said, I believe that the ST product (I'm not so starry-eyed I don't know it's a product) is part of our modern mythology, and will continue until such time as we find something to replace it. I have enjoyed most of the series' and am not such a fanatic that I've seen every episode of any of them. (My personal fave aired today, the TNG episode where Wesley evolves to become like the Traveler). Yes, it's just TV. But it's also a reflection of our culture/society. Think about it...everyone had computers, commucators and PDA's! It either forecast those items or helped to shape them.

K/S Ladies' Links (1)

Sweetwind (398578) | more than 13 years ago | (#194743)

My favorite hot links:

The ASCEM Golden Orgasm Award winners posted at http://www.geocities.com/ASCEMGO/ [geocities.com] -- I especially liked "Morning Dew", and you can skip right down to chapter 16 for the naughty stuff.

http://geocities.com/cc_ssd/ [geocities.com] -- Heavy on the Pavel Chekov, but who wouldn't like "The Taming Of The Shrew"? And plenty of other hot slash.

Ooops, I'll try to bring this back to the topic of Voyager by citing Tommyhawk's slash page at http://www.leatherdog.com/~tommyhawk/startrek.htm [leatherdog.com] which is all Chakotay/Paris.

--A Dirty Old K/S Lady

Series Good but Endgame disappointing (1)

vbprgrmr (411532) | more than 13 years ago | (#194749)

I enjoyed the Voyager series, certainly more then DS9, but the last episode was disappointing.

It began with what might have really happened afer such a long voyage. Crewmen and friends dead, others wounded. A saddened and seasoned Janeway and crew, because of those losses and the battles it took to get home. So I thought the writers had shown courage and the two hours would explore how that happened.

Instead we get the wishful thinking syndrome, the thing we go through when we suffer real losses in our lives. What would we have done to change those failures and losses. And of course we don't have time travel to repair our losses and they probably won't in the future.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (1)

shobadob (444535) | more than 13 years ago | (#194753)

It's not exponential, it's sort of hyperbolic. If you take the left side of the equation y = (1 / x), then that is what a graph of warp speeds would look like. Remember how 9.92 is something like 3x faster than 9.91, and as you get closer to ten, the faster the increase is (by A LOT). Warp 10 is infinitely faster than warp 9.9999999999. Of course, the left side of y = 1/x would have to be squished horizontally to fit between the line x=10 and the y-axis, and "negative infinity" would actually be at the origin, because an infinitely slow speed is no motion at all. (you can't go at negative speeds, of course).

Re:Final Episode (1)

viva1917 (451406) | more than 13 years ago | (#194757)

Ah, but if this did not happen, then Voyager would still be 26 years away from Earth. Therefore, the 26-year-later Janeway would go back in time and help the crew get home.

You can probably see the circular reasoning that develops when you involve time travel in a plot. It's just an easy way out, and it ruins otherwise good sci-fi.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194766)

That's where he's got it totally wrong. The introduction of the "warp speed limit" was introduced shortly after a certain TNG episode where the Enterprise helped come to the realization that old-school warp drives were slowly damaging subspace. The variable pitch warp nacelles, like the "folding" ones used on Voyager, were designed to negate the warp speed limit by negating all damage that warp drives do to subspace.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194767)

That, also, would be completely incorrect. I'm probably wrong on this note, but 70,000 light years being equivalent to a 75 year travel time would only be correct if the starship was limited to Warp One. As it's exponential (like the Richter Scale, Warp 2 is 10x as fast as Warp 1, while Warp 3 is 100x as fast as Warp 1, et cetera), the time it would take Voyager to travel home at cruising speed of Warp 6 would be much much MUCH less than 70 years (though I'm not sure what it would be).

Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194768)

One thing you have yet to realize is that the Warp Speed measurements are exponential. Warp 2 is ten times, not two times, the speed of Warp 1. As Warp 1 == the speed of light, Warp 9 != 9x the speed of light.

Re:The day I realized Trek sucked (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194769)

That's because they DROPPED the shields of the ship that Scotty was on.

Re:Even more ashamed (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194770)

1. The Dominion didn't need DS9 other than as a base, like the Federation did, to guard the wormhole. Don't forget that DS9/Terok Nor (original Cardassian name) was pretty much the only stationary object between anything and the wormhole. The Dominion needed to hold DS9 as a base of operations to ensure that their reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant got through without interference.

2. Q introduced the Federation to the Borg as a "wakeup call" to the Federation, and Picard in particular.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194771)

Yes, I have that one. It also illustrated the differences between the TOS Warp scale and the revised TNG warp scale.

Then again, I have about four or five tech manuals, plus a load more of other stuff strung out around my room. It helps when writing Star Trek fanfics. :)

Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194772)

Though we may have different ideas on how it works, I'm quite certain it is exponential.

Until you hit warp 9.

Then I believe it's a quadratic curve to infinity, where, as you said, it takes infinite energy to go at infinite speed and occupy every point in the universe simultaneously.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (1)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194773)

It was Warp 6.

Voyager (1)

Anna Gram (455420) | more than 13 years ago | (#194775)

There are many anagrams of "Voyager". Here are two of the most fitting: GAY ROVE GRAVE YO

Just enjoy it... (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#194781)

With all TV sci-fi shows, I have finally decided to just enjoy them, and stop nit-picking them. Anything fails under microscopic scrutiny, even reality... I have found that when I just let go and enjoy them, I am far happier with the experience than tearing them apart. Just my 452 pesos.

Re:The day I realized Trek sucked (2)

Alan (347) | more than 13 years ago | (#194782)

Actually IIRC this rule was broken a couple of times (don't remember the specifics). They explained it by saying something about matching shield harmonics allowing them to beam through.

*shrug*

Re:Last episode mirrored structure of STTNG (2)

emerson (419) | more than 13 years ago | (#194783)

Totally. I caught the same thing, but somehow couldn't explain to the people I was watching with that what SHOULD have happened is that the "future" ship would race up to it the first time, and shoot their little tachyon beam into it just as it disappeared into nothing. Which would, of course, make the plot resolution impossible, but would have made SENSE at least.

Of course, the whole time-travel premise of the show is moronic -- if the issue is that the evil growing-backwards thingie will have made it so humans never existed, then humans never existed to make the growing thingie appear in the first place and so therefore did exist and around and around and around.

Same with the Voyager bit. Since the future Janeway got Voyager back early, and therefore everything was happy and Tuvok didn't go nuts and so forth, suddenly the future Janeway had no reason to go back and change things and around and around and around.

Caveat Scriptor: time travel is a cheap and easy way to bamboozle your readers/viewers in place of actually entertaining them.
--

Re:High Warp Restriction? (2)

chrisd (1457) | more than 13 years ago | (#194788)

Oh, I didn't know that. Still, I think that the 70k = 75 year travel time is incorrect. Correct me though if I am wrong.

Chris
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Co-Editor, Open Sources

It's only ENTERTAINMENT! (2)

!Xabbu (1769) | more than 13 years ago | (#194789)

Good lord people. Its a TV show. Its meant to do nothing more then entertain us. Why is it that people these days are jaded by technicalities? The Sci-Fi genra was created by people who wish to push the limits of our imagination and 'go where no man has gone before' (sorry).

Sit down... watch the show and enjoy it for what it is. A story. It doesn't need to be realistic. It doesn't have to follow a set of rules throughout the season saying that you can't do this because in show 42 so and so did this and that therfore making the thought of time warp using potatos and lemon juice is impossible.

Whatever happened to the time when we watched a program/play/movie with no thought for minor inconsistancies or outlandishly cool toys like holodecks.



- Xabbu - Sysop: clockworkorangebbs.org
- Tradewars - LoRD - FidoNet and much more!

Re:It's only ENTERTAINMENT! (2)

dangermouse (2242) | more than 13 years ago | (#194790)

You'll notice that nobody's complaining that Voyager had torpedoes made of photons (or whatever), or that there are holographic projections that can be touched... they're complaining that consistency is not maintained. And they're right, that's distracting and annoying, and tends to make a story uninteresting.

Science fiction and fantasy rely on a suspension of disbelief to keep the audience engaged. Well-written sci-fi establishes a world that may contain things that are impossible in the real world, but as long as internal consistency is maintained such things are easy to accept and aid the story rather than hinder it. If that is lost, well, so is the audience's attention, because the author has clobbered them with unimportant details.

For instance, say on page 50 of a certain book it is explained that one can travel backward in time, but not forward. You, the reader, choose to accept that for the sake of the story. If on page 130, however, a character who could really use some forward time travel suddenly hops in a Time Car and zips ten years into the future, or discovers a Future Travel Particle, well...

I'll grant you that some people take it too far, and go *looking* for inconsistencies that might otherwise have gone unnoticed and never bothered anyone. But as a rule, once a writer establishes some ground rules, he should stick to them.

Re:TNG and DS9 vs VOY (2)

sheldon (2322) | more than 13 years ago | (#194791)

Umm... I've seen every episode of TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager. As well as every movie, and even the cartoon series.

TNG was by far the worst of them all.

Or don't you remember Wesley Crusher, or the Black Ooze that got rid of Lt. Yar?

Bleah, perhaps 10% of the episodes of TNG were any good and those mostly included the Borg.

Did you even watch it? (2)

Syberghost (10557) | more than 13 years ago | (#194796)

Chris, your essay makes me wonder if you have even watched the show.

Oh, you're spot-on with your criticisms of the writing, especially the over-reliance on time travel, but you're so far off on the premise that I hardly know where to begin.

But I'll take a shot:

1) The "warp speed limit" was set in The Next Generation, which went off the air in 1994. Voyager didn't air until 1995. The "speed limit" was set in an episode that aired in November of 1993, "Force of Nature", long before Voyager got lost.

2) 75 years to go 75,000 light years is not at all inconsistent with the physics of the show, even if we assume (which we can) that the speed limit isn't being followed, either because they fixed the problem or because they just don't care. (Paramount's web page says they fixed the problem, in the case of the Intrepid class, with those funky folding warp nacelles.) Unless you think that the ship can maintain 100% engine output constantly for decades, the 75/75,000 number translates out to about Warp 8, which strikes me as a pretty good cruising speed for a ship which is only intended to go three years between refits.

If you're gonna complain, complain about the REAL technical problems, not stuff that you simply don't understand fully.

-

Re:DO NOT CLICK ON LINK (2)

dillon_rinker (17944) | more than 13 years ago | (#194799)

And now that the parent has been modded down, it seems that you are referring to Chris DiBona's link.

:)

Re:Last episode mirrored structure of STTNG (2)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#194812)

somebody explain why the ship that got janeway BACK in time, couldn't take the whole crew forward again?

I think that was the reason she had Doctor Bob - excuse me, "Doctor Joe" score a couple grams of that experimental anti-chronon radiation drug (assuming again a few kilos for Voyager's crew was not available).

And why the "healthy as the first day the doctor saw her" Janeway couldn't wait a couple more years for Deus Ex Machina Industries to come up with a sturdier time machine, that wouldn't burn itself out going one-way.

Re:Last episode mirrored structure of STTNG (2)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#194813)

But, if it was growing backwards in time, why was it bigger 5 minutes in the future between the time they visited and saw nothing and Picard's realisation?

it was a "paradox".

So you're not allowed to analyze it. :-)

I know people don't want to hear it (2)

evilviper (135110) | more than 13 years ago | (#194820)

The truth is, Voyager and DS9 are the worst of the bunch, essentially turning the Star Trek series into a soap opera in space. At least the original had some very out-of-this-world characters. The truth is, Farscape is closer to the original Star Trek than the Star Trek series is.

---=-=-=-=-=-=---

Re:Just enjoy it... (2)

Lozzer (141543) | more than 13 years ago | (#194821)

That sounds like a person who has given up programming and moved over to the dark side of management :-)

Re:Last episode mirrored structure of STTNG (2)

shokk (187512) | more than 13 years ago | (#194824)

Shuttlecraft. Too small.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (2)

davejhiggins (188370) | more than 13 years ago | (#194825)

I think I remember reading somewhere that the rotating nacelles on the Voyager were supposed to be part of a new technology to limit that damage, making it one of the first ships allowed to randomly break the warp 6 restriction since it was imposed.

Voyages of Voyager (2)

batwingTM (202524) | more than 13 years ago | (#194827)

I Loved voyager, fromn the word go, the first few season where a bit stiff, but there were still good episodes amoung them, towards the end of season 3 (After future's end) it really started to gain momentum. 9 times out of ten a *bad* Voyager ep is better than a *good* DS9 episode, IMHO

(There is no way it would have taken that long to return using high warp, remembering the restriction of high warp speeds was enacted by the federation only after Voyager was deemed lost)

The warp 6 restriction has been enacted for some time, it was mentioned in TNG a few times (Pricard was authorised to exceed warp 6 on a few occasions)

Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 101 (2)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 13 years ago | (#194828)

... "It's premise, that the Voyager had been thrown 70k light years into the Delta Quadrant by "The Caretaker" and that it would take 75 years to return, was in my mind contrived and inconsistent with the model of physics that the Franchise had embraced. (There is no way it would have taken that long to return using high warp," ...

Hmm, let's see : 70000 light years, 75 years to return, 70000/75 ~= 933.4 times the speed of light == warp 933.4 in the Star Trek model of "physics". Even assuming Voyager can go faster than warp 9-point-something, it's awfully faster than any conventional ST vessel.

It seems to me there is no way it would have taken that *short* to return using high warp :-)

"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash

Re:TNG and DS9 vs VOY (2)

KevinMS (209602) | more than 13 years ago | (#194829)


Regardless of how insightful your very long post may be, calling andromeda "another great show" made it lose all credibility with me.

Also, the "thinking" shows of all the treks we're almost always the worst ones, because "thinking" usually made characters and drama take a back seat to the eureka of the last 15 minutes. I believe trek, in all its forms, was best with large scale drama, like wars, or spies, or secret weapons. In this type of framwork there's plenty of opportunity for drama, suspense and characters.

Also, in other opinions, "earth, final conflict" is also horrible, but I still watch it for a small sci-fi fix. Farscape can be a very good show but for a while there it took a serious nosedive, must have changed writers or something and they didnt know the characters anymore. Lexx has been pretty good the last season with the fire and water planets, but its not really sci-fi, but then again, you could just have the robot head start babbling about transphasic fields or tetrion emmissions for a few minutes and it would have as much science as trek. Stargate is by far the best sci-fi series there is now, its got lots of drama, cool wormholes, good and evil, mythology, honor, intersteller politics, babes, guns, explosions, a pinch of timetravel, great characters and good humor. Can you tell I have Tivo :)

Even more ashamed (2)

MeowMeow Jones (233640) | more than 13 years ago | (#194831)

Why did the Dominion need the DS9 to get to the alpha quadrant? They don't care about federation Regulations.

And when Q introduced the Borg by spinning the Enterprise into the Delta Quad (way before the warp six limit) they acknowledged that the introduction took place a hundred years before it should have.

I know it's all stupid anyway, why am I talking about it?

Trolls throughout history:

haha (2)

Beowulf_Boy (239340) | more than 13 years ago | (#194833)

All you people remind me of the Episode of the Simpsons where Homer played the Dog in "Itchy and Scratchy"

"Mister, when itchy ripped Scratchy's ribs out and played them like a Xylaphone, he struck two different ribs, but they played the same note, What is with that?"

Gotta add my $0.02 worth (2)

tulare (244053) | more than 13 years ago | (#194834)

I, too, ignored Voyager until later on (Kinda hard to watch anything on tv when you have no power or running water, much less cable). Once I did, I was fortunate to be near a local station that plays reruns every weeknight, so I got to watch pretty much every episode that aired. It sure was irritating at first to see Kate Mulgrew mugging the camera(Patric Stewart she isn't) as the music swelled just before some inane commercial took over the display, and even more recently, I thought the idea of 7 fighting The Rock was a desperate publicity stunt to boost ratings, but all in all, it was fun to watch the actors becoming comfortable with the roles, and to disagree with the author of this story, I thought the premise the series was based upon was interesting, and brought up things to consider.

That said, I felt let down by the finale. (spoilage warning: I won't give it away if possible, but still want to air my gripes) The overall plot could have just as easily have been another weekly episode. Also, the last couple of episodes have felt kind of rushed. Why was Neelix so abrupt when he left the ship? It really wasn't like him to even discuss his plans with a very suddenly grown-up Naomi. IMHO the finale, for that matter, could have used an extra hour to flesh out some of the complications and twists they threw in there. Why not a two- or three-parter, instead of crowding everything into ninety minutes (show-commercials=@90minutes)?

The "big" ending of it all was worse than anticlimactic. There was simply not enough time to finish the job. Now that I've become used to the characters, it's kind of dissappointing that the next series will be set two hundred years before Voyager... guess that leaves out any option for cameo appearanes, with the possible exception of Q. Oh, well, time goes on.

Re:Last episode mirrored structure of STTNG (2)

ryants (310088) | more than 13 years ago | (#194849)

The real difference was, the STTNG episode was one of the best episodes they ever made ...

I'd agree, except for one glaring error in the final moments of the final episode:

When Picard realised that the "thing" (whatever the hell it was) was growing backwards in time, they raced back to its origin and lo-and-behold, there it was.

But, if it was growing backwards in time, why was it bigger 5 minutes in the future between the time they visited and saw nothing and Picard's realisation?

I caught that right away and it kind of ruined the whole show for me.

Oh well.

Ryan T. Sammartino

Ummm, didn't they... (2)

cellophanecookie (455414) | more than 13 years ago | (#194853)

Didn't they mention in the episode that there were like 6 of those Hub's in the galaxy (not to mention how many might exist in the universe?) Also isn't the idea of the borg distributed. The queen should live on shouldn't she?

Re:The day I realized Trek sucked (3)

Squid (3420) | more than 13 years ago | (#194854)

That episode also ruined Trek for me too - but not for the same reason. It was the first time I realized there's such thing as fanwank. Scotty is cool and seeing him interact with the 1701D crew was cool, and the retooled Old Enterprise bridge on the holodeck was cool, but aside from that, the episode was a particularly low-rent Next Generation dealing with an abandoned Dyson sphere and not a damn thing else. It wasn't a BAD episode per se, it just... by having Scotty there, it should have been a masterpiece, a classic, like "Best of Both Worlds" or "City on the Edge of Forever". Instead it was an ordinary episode disguised as a classic by Scotty's presence. Some fans can't tell the difference. But eventually I noticed the difference - and the episode became "less real" as a result.

My take on the death of the Trek series... (3)

Trumpet (42631) | more than 13 years ago | (#194858)

There are a lot of reasons why Trek is in the state that it's in, but the main ones are Rick Berman and Paramount itself. In some ways, the death of Trek started in its own popularity.

Trek is a massive cash cow for Paramount, a major franchise for them. Because of this, they were far less likely to do anything that would cut off that revenue flow. Basically, they couldn't take risks whith the story, because that might cause people to stop buying Trek stuff, and take a few precious pennies away from Paramount.

Rick Berman is equally afraid of losing that income, because it would mean him losing his job. Now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps this is because higher-ups have tied his hands. He's not the kind of person who can revitalize the franchise.

By far, the best thing to do was to end Voyager gracefully and end the Trek franchise for a while. Bring it back with new blood in a few years, and bring it back to the spirit of the original, episodes and characters that actually take chances and make the audience think. Then, maybe, Trek can get back to where it should be.

Re:Come on... (3)

Velox_SwiftFox (57902) | more than 13 years ago | (#194859)

You can't honestly tell me that the original Star Trek was that great. I mean, come on!. It was incredibly cheesy, and every single episode ended up with Kirk getting the hook-up with some freaky alien chick.

He was just obeying his Evolutionary Prime Directive.

Re:Gotta add my $0.02 worth (3)

OmegaDan (101255) | more than 13 years ago | (#194862)

Thats exactly how I felt -- anticlimactic -- The show faded end showing voyager coming home ... I was thinking "god, what are we gonna do for the next 2 hrs if they got home in the first 60 seconds?" ...

They should have cut the (lame) subplots -- the romances -- the baby -- and had a 10 minute "coming home ceremony" scene at the end where the crew was honored with medals and stuff :) this might have given that sense of accomplishment you seek ... -- that would have cost ALOT of money to do that correctly -- lots of extras -- lots of matt paintings -- lots of difficult effects shots -- and I don't think they wanted to spend on the last episode.

Re:The day I realized Trek sucked (3)

Pxtl (151020) | more than 13 years ago | (#194864)

While that was also the day I realized Trek sucked, because they took a Dyson sphere and made it into a little 1-episode filler thing with a neat guest star. I hate in when writers read about some cute little concept, say oooooh, lets make an episode about that, and then not follow through with the research. The Dyson sphere would probably have enough surface area to remap every inhabited planet in the Federation and beyond onto its surface. I remember someone saying that the size of the earth to the sun is like a single pea 80 feet from a 3 foot beach ball. Imagine replacing that pea with an 160-foot sphere, and you can realize the scale of this thing.

And they made it a little side trip. Those bastards.

I'm ashamed to admit it (3)

MeowMeow Jones (233640) | more than 13 years ago | (#194865)

But it's not a federation restriction, it's allegedly a physics restriction.

Allegedly, high warp speeds send you back in time (see Star Trek IV: Save the Whales) just like light speed would mess you up without wormholes. So then they invented the trans-warp bullshit which is to warp as warp is to normal space.

Trolls throughout history:

Re:Warp drive silliness : somebody skipped math 10 (3)

Salieri (308060) | more than 13 years ago | (#194868)

Actually, it's not exponential, it's a hand-drawn function that has an asymptote at 10, where it takes infinite energy to go at infinite speed and occupy every point in the universe simulatenously.

That was the model until Voyager's Threshold, which establishes that going at warp 10 simply makes you turn into a giant lizard.

--------------------------------

25rd? (3)

bwandrews (322370) | more than 13 years ago | (#194870)

What's the 25rd century again? :) Ben

Re:I'm ashamed to admit it (3)

Pyrion Celendil (455058) | more than 13 years ago | (#194871)

You're thinking of the "slingshot around the sun" effect warp has on the spacetime continuum, not the Warp Six limitation the Federation imposed on all space travel within the Federation's territories.

The Warp Six limitation that the author mentions was the result of a TNG episode that demonstrated that old school warp drives and their warp fields slowly damaged subspace at speeds greater than Warp Six. The "folding" nacelles on Voyager were the result of the development of a new design of warp core, the M-ARA/II, which became standard on all Federation starships. In order to get the correct warp field for an Intrepid-class starship, its warp nacelles had to be modified to "fold" upwards during warp travel, to alter the geometry of the warp field. Ships later designed around the M-ARA/II warp drive, like the Prometheus, Defiant, and Sovereign, don't have this requirement as they already have a newer design of warp nacelle to control it automatically.

Re:High Warp Restriction? (4)

chrisd (1457) | more than 13 years ago | (#194872)

I don't remember exactly which one, but the reason was that any warp travel and exceptionally high speed travel especially, caused irreperable harm to the fabric of space time, and the federation decided to limit the speed starships could cruise at the warp 5 or something. I'm sure somoene reading about this knows a bunch more than I do about this.

Chris
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Co-Editor, Open Sources

Last episode mirrored structure of STTNG (4)

OmegaDan (101255) | more than 13 years ago | (#194873)

The last episode of Voyager was an omage (or ripoff:) to the last episode ot STTNG ...

If you recall the last episode of STTNG, Picard was struck with some syndrome, and was operating in 3 time periods ...

The voyager finale was kindof a low-power copy of that same structure -- Janeway operating in 2 time periods simultaneously, TUVOC was sick (as opposed to janeway/picard).

The real difference was, the STTNG episode was one of the best episodes they ever made ... the Voyager episode was such a hack its obvious the writers weren't even trying -- they tucked in the loose ends with a sledgehammer -- manufactured drama -- and tried to end with a bang by destroying alot of the borg which you know will come back eventually in some episode/movie/series -- and ALL done while relying on their "techno babel" ... somebody explain why the ship that got janeway BACK in time, couldn't take the whole crew forward again?

TNG and DS9 vs VOY (5)

SMN (33356) | more than 13 years ago | (#194875)

I don't think I've seen anyone who's seen all of Star Trek and doesn't think that Voyager was the worst of them all. It certainly doesn't compare to TNG and DS9, because those were thinking shows.

In TNG and DS9 (excluding the first few DS9 seasons) -- and now Andromeda, another great show -- most episodes consisted of a problem which was usually overcome by wit, intelligence, or skill from the crew. For instance, in TNG, the Borg were always these physically invincible enemies, and the crew had to come up with some intricate plot to overcome them. DS9 also made viewers think, usually using displomatic issues (the various alliances formed by the various races) or religious ones (the role of the prophets, as God or fate, affecting the lives of the characters). DS9's resolution of the many, many plot arcs in the last 7 episodes showed great planning and the great character development throughout the series, and it was a very fitting sendoff that ended the series in the proper spirit.

TNG and DS9 also relied heavily on continuity of certain plot arcs. In DS9, this is obvious. In TNG, it was a bit more subtle, but after rewatching most of the series and reading through the Star Trek Encyclopedia, I think that realizing the small way in which each and every episode was somehow connected to the larger themes makes the show seem even better. And the TNG and DS9 characters showed growth and development while still remaining consistent to what we knew of them.

Voyager abandoned all of this. The only concerted effort to maintain a story arc, with Voyager and the Kazons, was abandoned three seasons into the show. The rest of the series was just isolated episodes -- I could miss any one, and not care at all because it had no bearing on the larger outcome of the series. There were a few small attempts at bringing back some old characters toward the end, such as Lt. Carey and the aliens who blackmailed the Doctor in the next-to-last episode, but only fans who truly followed the series (especially online) noticed these links, and they were not at all important to the plot of the individual episodes.

Voyager also abandoned continuity by completely forgetting about their limits on shuttles and photon torpedoes. I found several sites online a while ago tracking those, and they lost the amount they started with many, many times over. Characters -- except the Doctor -- almost never developed, either, as an experience in one episode would be forgotten the next (this was fixed a bit in the last season).

Worst of all, Voyager was not a "thinking" show -- every episode was solved by what many call the "particle-of-the-week." Every time Voyager was in a seemingly inescapable predicament, they didn't come up with a witty solution like in TNG -- they just inverted a new particle, or pulse, or weapon. This formula was used in 90% of the shows, including the finale. Chris DiBona picked up on this a bit in his review -- the producers have made the Borg weak and feeble with the paradoxical Borg "Queen," weapons from the future, and a magical Borg-killing virus. Whatever happened to TNG's Best of Both Worlds, when one Borg Cube took out the entire Federation fleet? The Enterprise solved that with intelligent characters outwitting the Borg systems (Data "hacks" in), not powerful uber-weapons.

The largest continuity issue with the Voyager finale was that they were able to take a transwarp conduit right home to Earth -- if the Borg could do that, why didn't they transport right to Earth in The Best of Both Worlds? The Borg are no longer menacing; they're weak and stupid.

Voyager's finale also exploits the worst lapse of character yet. Janeway's always been a goodie-two-shoes since episode one, opting to follow the Prime Directive while her people suffer and die. Why is it that she's now willing to accept help from the future? If the character refuses every opportunity to get home with even the slightest repurcussions, why is it she's willing to accept such a blatant violation of her own principles in this episode? The future Janeway in this episode showed that she had changed and developed enough to accept this, but the past Janeway has totally abandoned her character. Finally, the series has backed Star Trek into a corner. There's little chance of another future series, because Voyager keeps inventing magical technology to solve everything. Worst of all is Time Travel -- as soon as one race gets time travel, they can just go back and do what they like. If any race beats the Federation to it, they'll go back and take over history. And there are many races more advanced than the Federation; if not, the ships would face no challenges and the show would have no premise. If the Federation develops time travel, then there's nothing to stop their peaceful existence, and there's nothing left to drive Star Trek. That's why they need to go back in time now; I just wonder what they'll do after the new series.

Re:Red Dwarf is a much better show (5)

icemind (191210) | more than 13 years ago | (#194876)

Correction, Red Dwarf WAS a much better show. From the start it just got better and better until we got the countless superb episodes of Seasons 5 and 6. And then, season 7. And Kochanski, who isn't funny and can't act her way out of a paper bag and just ruins the whole damn show. It was great when it was the 4 of them, they were each unique and played off each other superbly. Now we have Kochanski who is a pointless and even detrimental addition to the show, clearly a desperate attempt by the makers to add something "new" to a show that didn't need it. And don't get me started on the even more pointless addition of the rebuilt Red Dwarf and its entire crew (of which we've mostly seen the unfunny Captain Holister and not much else). Red Dwarf reached its peak when they were flying around in Starbug which offered so much opportunity for creative and funny situations, and very quickly hit rock bottom when they came up with the lame story lines of season 7 onwards. It's almost tragic.

One of the writers, Rob Grant, basically stopped writing episodes (he only did one in S7) and it's clear he is the talented one able who actually came up with original and funny jokes and episode ideas. Seasons 7 and 8 have, if they're lucky, one or two mildly funny jokes per show, the and premises just aren't nearly as original. Legion, Inquisitor, Wax World, Quarantine, Demons and Angels, and of course the hilarious Gunmen of the Apocalypse. Each of these episodes is more memorable than season 7 or 8 in their entirity, not the mention the fact that they're so desperate for ideas that they are stretching single episodes into three instead. It's a deep shame that I have to say this, but I'd rather they ended what was once a superb series that I adored and watched almost religiously rather than continue to milk it and further tarnish its image. Star Trek is, IMO, average, switch-brain-off-and-kinda-enjoy-it TV viewing, and while it's not doing the world any good it ain't doing any harm either. Red Dwarf, unless you're watching a series 1-6 re-run, is now almost unbearably bad.

Die Star Trek Die (5)

localroger (258128) | more than 13 years ago | (#194877)

Star Trek was a great idea for its day, but let's face it, its day ended before 1970. Paramount did many stupid things during the course of the original show which caused it to deteriorate and finally die prematurely; they foolishly did not bring it back until the entire craft had matured beyond the premise of the original series.

Is there really anything in the Star Trek universe worth saying that has not been said a dozen times in each series, five dozen times total, and at least twice in a movie? The pseudo-physics of the ST universe suffered the same fate as the pseudo-technology of Dr. Who, snarled up in contradictions and failures of vision that kept turning everything into metaphors for modern events. However, while Dr. Who dealt with its 20-year albatross of a history with tongue in cheek and a certain amount of wit, ST is so deathly serious about everything that it has ended up looking ridiculous.

Let's remember, kids, that the original concept was Captain Hornblower in Space according to Gene Roddenberry himself. Anybody remember Captain Hornblower? Let's just say that the number of episodes where Kirk and Spock end up in a dungeon stripped to the waist was in theme.

So we've lost the charming elements that made ST such a hot item with the K/S ladies and replaced them with, hmmm, let's see, androids instead of Vulcans. Boy that is so imaginative. And now we have the technology to show the Holodeck (always in the specs, not filmable in 1967) and the Earth (from the original ST bible, according to David Gerrold: we do not show the Earth, that's why we have starbases). But what has really been added? NOTHING .

No more series, no more episodes, no more movies. I'm sorry to say it but, while ending ST in its original incarnation was a premature mistake, bringing it back has turned out to be a much, much, much bigger mistake. Let's bury this dog before it completely skeletizes and think of something new.

My take... (5)

Salieri (308060) | more than 13 years ago | (#194878)

Deus ex machina is a phrase referring to a plot device in Greek drama. The various characters would spend the whole play getting tangled up in conflict. In the end, instead of the characters finding a way to right things themselves, a god would come down and make everything right, since gods can do that without consequence. Today, we use deus ex machina as a derogatory term for a drama, and refer to the use of some contrived, improbably force to come down at the end and provide a cheap way out of the conflict.

Spoiler warning. After seven years, that's how Voyager ended, in my opinion. Did the crew use their years of experience with the Borg to get past them? No... they were blessed with a visitor from the future, who brought weapons to make them invincible to every enemy. They were then free to use Borg transwarp conduits (which didn't bother me as much since they've been established since season 6 of TNG).

Put another way, what did you want to see out of the finale? Here's what I've been imagining for seven years:
  • The crew arrives home
  • Emotional farewells between crew members and uncertaintly about their future
  • Commendation or other acknowledgement by Starfleet
  • An investigation into the psychological effect of unexpectedly seeing one's loved ones after seven years of isolation
  • Will Seven of Nine be accepted by humanity and be able to live alongside billions of humans?
  • What role will the Doctor play in liberating repressed sentinent holograms, as referred to in recent episodes?
  • Whatever happened to Kim's fiancee?
  • etc.
The producers, however, assumed that I had only one question, and wrote the entire episode under that assumption:
  • Will they make it back?
I wanted an hour or more in the Alpha quandrant providing closure to the series. But instead they held out the contrived suspense to the very last minute, giving us only one single shot of Voyager approaching Earth. Completely unsatisfying end to seven years' anticipation.

I mean, all in all, it was just another episode. How many episodes were there that had them spend an hour getting REALLY REALLY CLOSE to getting home and then be thwarted? This episode was about getting REALLY REALLY CLOSE for two hours, and then being successful. I didn't want to see another episode about getting really really close. I wanted to see an episode about returning home!

Sigh... well, it's not important enough to get too worked up over. But still, their priorities were in the wrong place. It's that kind of substitution -- giving us more phasers, nebulae, and "transphasic torpedoes" instead of human drama, that makes Star Trek suck today compared to the days of TOS and TNG.

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