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Wayland/Weston Gets Forked As Northfield/Norwood

timothy posted about a year ago | from the same-number-syllables dept.

GUI 252

An anonymous reader writes "Weeks after Canonical announced Mir, Wayland's display server protocol and Weston compositor have been forked. A contributor to Wayland found differing views with the project over desktop eye candy and other technical decisions to the X11 successor, which resulted in forming the Northfield and Norwood projects. The developer, Scott Moreau, has been outted from the project but has provided a lengthy explanation why the fork was needed to advance the Linux desktop."

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Just what we need... (2, Funny)

QuietLagoon (813062) | about a year ago | (#43313995)

... yet another flavor of Linux that is going to take the desktop by storm.

Re:Just what we need... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314039)

Yeah, a diverse marketplace of ideas is never beneficial.

Re:Just what we need... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314363)

I'd rather take one solid piece of software than 10 which are broken in different ways.

Re:Just what we need... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314799)

I'd rather take one solid piece of software than 10 which are broken in different ways.

I believe this distribution [microsoft.com] is what you're looking for.

Re:Just what we need... (4, Funny)

lister king of smeg (2481612) | about a year ago | (#43314839)

I'd rather take one solid piece of software than 10 which are broken in different ways.

I believe this distribution [microsoft.com] is what you're looking for.

he said solid not unstable or unusable

Re:Just what we need... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314049)

And for some of the forks that damage open source, at least they have a reason that they can articulate instead of just a mess of rambling nonsense.

Re:Just what we need... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314693)

Forks never damage open source. They only make it stronger.

Re:Just what we need... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315005)

Forks never damage open source. They only make it stronger.

True but only if you have enough developers to carry the fork through and through.
Which to be honest doesn't seem to be the case in this situation. 1 developer ? And he's going to tackle what a bunch of other developers haven't been or not willing to do in sevral years ? I don't get my hopes up just yet. This is just squandering resources.

Re:Just what we need... (1)

BarfooTheSecond (409743) | about a year ago | (#43315093)

Stronger... and unused.

Re:Just what we need... (2)

sheehaje (240093) | about a year ago | (#43314091)

Umm, how is a display server and compositing window manager a flavor of Linux?

Re:Just what we need... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314295)

Umm, how is a display server and compositing window manager a flavor of Linux?

The same way a window manager ALONE apparently constitutes a flavor of Linux (Ubuntu vs Kubuntu vs Xubuntu, Mint Mate vs Mint Cinnamon vs Mint KDE vs Mint XFCE...).

Re:Just what we need... (4, Insightful)

lgw (121541) | about a year ago | (#43314411)

If an ordinary application can't be written once to look fine on both, then really it is a new flavor. If the application writer doesn't have to know or care, then it's not.

This fork happened over the difficulty in adding candy to the UI, so in theory all the apps that aren't the shell shouldn't care, but in practice, well, time will tell.

Re:Just what we need... (3, Interesting)

marcello_dl (667940) | about a year ago | (#43314367)

It's interesting how many people are interested in the desktop.

I just care about MY desktop instead. I prefer to edit some configs (which clearly is rocket science) and experiencing some inconsistent look and feel among applications, than using MS or Apple solutions and submit to whatever their management think is a good idea to stick on MY desktop to make their system more difficult to migrate from.

People want to replace xorg (a fork itself)? best wishes, not a problem for me. Problems would arise when xorg replacements are used to introduce incompatibilities, push one distro ahead of the others, render old software/hardware obsolete. It's not easy to pull such stunts by staying free as in GPL, though.

Re:Just what we need... (1)

buchner.johannes (1139593) | about a year ago | (#43315245)

It's interesting how many people are interested in the desktop.

I just care about MY desktop instead. I prefer to edit some configs (which clearly is rocket science) and experiencing some inconsistent look and feel among applications, than using MS or Apple solutions and submit to whatever their management think is a good idea to stick on MY desktop to make their system more difficult to migrate from.

Using open source desktops you are also at the mercy of upstream. Forking a desktop and maintaining updates is just too time-consuming for an individual. If upstream abandons your favorite desktop (e.g. old versions of GNOME1 and KDE3), you are pretty much screwed, because your system will become outdated and incompatible with everyone else who is moving on.

Re:Just what we need... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314381)

This is not a new distro you retard

Re:Just what we need... (1)

MessageApprovalMan (2871053) | about a year ago | (#43314647)

The point is, it's another attempt to use a GUI to make Linux palatable enough on the desktop for _ANY_ distro to be successful.

Hasn't happened yet, but Ubuntu was close until they fucked it up. My current money is on Mint.

Re:Just what we need... (0)

jayrulez (2794643) | about a year ago | (#43314783)

You might as well cut your money up into tiny little pieces and flush it down the toilet.

Re:Just what we need... (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about a year ago | (#43314661)

No shit!!! Wayland has barely hit version 1.0 and is not fully functional in most environments, and already it has a fork. That too, w/ only 1 guy!

Re:Just what we need... (1, Interesting)

sidragon.net (1238654) | about a year ago | (#43314977)

Absolutely freaking correct. The state of open source duplicity is simply embarrassing these days.

X11 lives! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314001)

I expect it will still be used quite a bit for decades to come.

Footlong brown snake (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314011)

Dropped on your momma's chest.

Ugh... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314017)

Meh, bought a MAC, FCK IT too much drama...

Re:Ugh... (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314483)

Meh, bought a MAC

You bought a Media Access Control? How much did it cost?

When are they going to use motion sensing and 3d? (0, Flamebait)

elucido (870205) | about a year ago | (#43314057)

It's about time the entire desktop go 3d. It's 2013 and video cards can do it easily. Instead of windows why not just use rotating cubes?

Re:When are they going to use motion sensing and 3 (0)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#43314147)

If you want to troll you need to be less obvious.

I give it a 1/10 for trying.

Gnome 3 is EDUCATED STUPID! (2)

Thud457 (234763) | about a year ago | (#43314231)

ghod, plz DNT mk X11 go all TIMECUBE on us!

Re:When are they going to use motion sensing and 3 (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about a year ago | (#43314307)

That's an excellent question.

Re:When are they going to use motion sensing and 3 (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314373)

It's about time the entire desktop go 3d. It's 2013 and video cards can do it easily. Instead of windows why not just use rotating cubes?

You can easily do that without some fancy display driver or even 3d glasses. Just strap together 6 monitors into a cube shape and fashion a suitable base that will let it rotate in 3 axes (probably best to put the CPU inside the cube so you only need to provide power to the cube). Then to change desktops just flip the cube in the appropriate direction.

Re:When are they going to use motion sensing and 3 (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314575)

I know this is a troll, but KDE has had that functionality for years. Both in mouse-rotatable cube with windows that 'pop out' and have depth, and it's even head-tracker compatible for maximum nausea!

Capcha: Southpaw (which I am)

Help, I'm being triggered! (0, Troll)

l0ungeb0y (442022) | about a year ago | (#43314071)

You said "forked"!!!! Why does this sight have to be so offensively sexist?
We need Valerie Aurora and Adia Richards to come to the rescue!

Re:Help, I'm being triggered! (0, Troll)

Entropius (188861) | about a year ago | (#43314095)

(or vagina)

Re:Help, I'm being triggered! (1, Redundant)

dclozier (1002772) | about a year ago | (#43314175)

That's my trigger! Please wait while I get my dongle out. ;)

Re:Help, I'm being triggered! (-1, Troll)

epyT-R (613989) | about a year ago | (#43314521)

yes, those poor women so 'empowered', yet so oppressed by a simple joke.. the answer to this paradox is to jail every bloke.

Survival of the Fittest (4, Insightful)

jarich (733129) | about a year ago | (#43314089)

I'd never do it myself, but I'm looking forward to seeing which projects survive and how they change the landscape in five years. X11 was difficult to use for years... let's see what a little competition can do for innovation and usability.

Re:Survival of the Fittest (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314201)

The guys developing Wayland are the core developers of X11.

Re:Survival of the Fittest (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314719)

The guys developing Wayland are core developers of _some parts_ of X11. Truth to be told, real Wayland commiters (e.g. Kristian, Pekka) aren't X developers. Others, like Daniel are mostly talking instead committing.

Re:Survival of the Fittest (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315151)

wierd since Kristian wrote AIGLX and DRI2 which are X. Scott is that you?

Re:Survival of the Fittest (2)

ALeader71 (687693) | about a year ago | (#43314219)

Agreed. Open Source was never meant to be a top-down heiarchy. Its history will tell you that. Some of RMS' rants speak volumes about how Open Source, like life, tends to break out and do its own thing. I'm all for competition in this category. The major distros will adopt one or the other, or both! The two projects may merge (un-fork?) and become stronger than either could alone. In the meantime, we have Xorg and it works well enough.

So let the strongest triumph over the weaker project. We could have a Street Fighter style "Finish Him" video to hail the end of the lesser. What do you think?

Re:Survival of the Fittest (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314343)

Some of RMS' rants speak volumes about how Open Source, like life, tends to break out and do its own thing.

And some of his other rants speak volumes about when Open Source stops posting code upstream and tries to make a profit off their own alterations of a prior branch, that it is time for an extinction event.

What's the open-source equivalent of introducing rabbits to Australia?

Re:Survival of the Fittest (4, Insightful)

SolitaryMan (538416) | about a year ago | (#43314427)

The good thing about Open Source is that if two contributors strongly disagree on something, both are given an equal opportunity to prove their point. In the end, society wins.

Re:Survival of the Fittest (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314773)

No. Instead of working together to resolve their differences and taking the best technical ideas from both groups to enhance the core product, they have a whiny bitch fest, split the development teams, create two products which end up lesser than the original, create an artificial need for more developers, reduce the advancement of the state of the art, and cause people new to the area to spend twice as long researching which products they should use.

In the end, society loses.

Re:Survival of the Fittest (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315261)

Truest comment ever. Such a shame that most people won't realise this.

I love open source, but the splintering, fracturing, NIH is a huge problem.

Re:Survival of the Fittest (3, Insightful)

epyT-R (613989) | about a year ago | (#43314547)

blasphemy! if you're going to use a game analogy, make sure you use the right game. shao-khan will collect your geek card and then enslave your soul.

Re:Survival of the Fittest (1)

TheReaperD (937405) | about a year ago | (#43314563)

We could have a Street Fighter style "Finish Him" video to hail the end of the lesser.

Umm... don't you mean Mortal Kombat?

Re:Survival of the Fittest (2)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | about a year ago | (#43315361)

X11 has never been difficult to use. The drivers have often been incomplete or unavailabne which made things hard to use for particular hardware, but this would have been a problem with no matter what window system, the driver situation would have been the same. Nearly all problems people have had are driver relelated and that has nothing to do with x11 itself but rather the lack of driver support for major hardware vendors. The driver issues have nothing to do with x11 itself so its improper to blame x11 for that.

And the reason Linux remains hostile to average users revolves around drivers. People want their hardware to just work and that means drivers are needed for hardware and Linux really should not be so hostile to hardware vendors that provide binary blob drivers.

Hahah (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314189)

I think this is hilarious. Heh heh. Hopefully people will realise that X11 is really the best, and that if we are to advance desktop linux, what we really need is X12 or something, rather than some stupid reinvention of the wheel.

X11 FOREVER!!! !!! !!!

Yet more fragmentation (1)

atomicxblue (1077017) | about a year ago | (#43314195)

What is Canonical doing? I am still not 100% convinced we need to replace X, and that Wayland is the best form for that replacement. After doing this, will they still be compatible with the majority of Linux distros?

I wouldn't be surprised if they replace the kernel next because the entire thing wasn't written in the past 2 years. It's not cutting edge, right? *rolls eyes*

Re:Yet more fragmentation (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314625)

You dumbass. Canonical has nothing to do with this fork. Secondly, how the fuck would you know if Wayland is the best form for replacement? With two of the largest companies (Red Hat and Intel) involved in open source projects, each raking in over a billion dollars in revenue every year, still, after 5 long years, haven't produced anything ready for mainstream consumption. It's time to get their asses in gear.

Re:Yet more fragmentation (1)

us7892 (655683) | about a year ago | (#43314683)

I couldn't believe revenues of Red Hat topped 1.2 billion! Where does it all go?

Re:Yet more fragmentation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314821)

Salaries.

Quick back of the envelope calculation: $1.2 billion gets you 12,000 employees at an average cost per employee of $100k. For salary + insurance + office space, that's just about right.

Now, RedHat only has half that number of employees. But those numbers are still in the right ballpark, I think. When you add in executive compensation and all the extraneous costs involved with drumming up more revenue, it all adds up to being not very profitable at the end of the day. Red Hat is probably just squeaking by. I seriously doubt that there's much room to cut costs.

Re:Yet more fragmentation (2)

Motor (104119) | about a year ago | (#43315379)

Hookers and blow... obviously

Re:Yet more fragmentation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315297)

Red Hat hasn't contributed developer time to wayland since Kristian left to go to Intel. This may be changing.

Re:Yet more fragmentation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314751)

Distros will keep X for a long time; there is too much of dust around Wayland without anything useful to show or use. Someone will argue how gtk got wayland backend, so what; it has html backend for some time and I don't see that is used by anyone.

Re:Yet more fragmentation (1)

tqk (413719) | about a year ago | (#43315223)

I wouldn't be surprised if they replace the kernel next ...

It's been done. I know of at least two distros that offer the FreeBSD kernel instead of Linux.

More information (5, Interesting)

Darxus (12285) | about a year ago | (#43314205)

Everybody involved with the wayland project is happy to see weston (the reference display server) get forked to be developed into a more usable desktop environment. That's basically what it's for, and this is far from the first (ubuntu forked it, ADWC was another fork).

This entire article argued he couldn't do what he needs with a plugin alone, which is not relevant to his problem with the wayland community. The problem was his refusal to use the existing mechanism to retain protocol compatibility by copying the existing protocol code into a new extension and modifying in there: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2013-March/008172.html

In four pages, he didn't address why he didn't feel like doing that.

Re:More information (3, Funny)

lytles (24756) | about a year ago | (#43314749)

nothing he said in there was anything worse than what linus posts, or many open source projects. you could have said "scott - i choose not to make the changes that you'd like. you're free to fork things". instead, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth - claiming that you were being accommodating and then stonewalling him, kicking him when he called you on it, and pretending that he's a bad egg for forking things

if you're going to bad-mouth someone for forking, then you're just playing politics

Re:More information (1)

Darxus (12285) | about a year ago | (#43314933)

Linus' behavior is also shameful.

Nobody is badmouthing him for forking. And I never claimed anybody was being accommodating - the wayland project is handling new contributions badly, and a fork was exactly the right way to handle the situation.

We did say he's free to fork things. He still is. We're all still happy he's doing the work he's doing. He's just obstinately insisting on doing it in a way that breaks compatibility with no stated reason.

He's not a bad egg for forking things. He's a bad egg for being constantly abusive to everyone involved in the project for the last year, which he has admitted.

Why was he banned? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315031)

I read some of the mailing list threads about it and saw no abuse, from either side. It all seemed very civil and focused on technical matters.

If Phoronix is right that he's been kicked from the Wayland mailing list and IRC then something else must have happened. Got any links?

I hope Wayland isn't one of those projects overrrun by back-patting fanbois who ganged up on him and voted him to be blocked simply for having a different view.

Re:Why was he banned? (1, Informative)

Darxus (12285) | about a year ago | (#43315201)

--- Day changed Tue Mar 12 2013
12:28 I DONT GIVE A SHIT what you ignorant people think about attitude, politics and a bunch of crap that doesn't even matter ...
12:32 soreau: FYI, not giving a shit about people is exactly your problem.
12:32 Darxus: You're a fucking idiot

Also:

http://www.chaosreigns.com/wayland/soreau.html

Just a couple nice, recent examples.

Re:More information (4, Insightful)

slack_justyb (862874) | about a year ago | (#43315015)

Because that solution just sounds silly.

The whole point of Wayland, and I could be wrong on this one, is to avoid the mistakes of X. From your solution, we just go back to the days of hack around the core.

The core protocol is flawed and the project shouldn't be afraid to make some sort of shift when there is a pretty good reason for that change. If dude was purposing change for just change sake, yeah I would get it. But the protocol doesn't implement basic window management within the core, and makes it insanely difficult at the plugin level. I, for one, think dude has a point.

That is exactly what happened to X. Everyone was afraid of changing the core protocol, afraid that it would break older stuff. Look where that got it. About a bazillion extensions. At some point backwards compatibility breaks the baker and I know that is hearsay in the OSS community. I know there has been a lot of boneheaded change for change sake forks, but I really don't see this as falling into that category.

Re:More information (3)

Darxus (12285) | about a year ago | (#43315187)

Nobody is asking him to keep it out of the core forever. Just making his modifications in an extension so they can be cleanly added to the core (or his extension can become the core), instead of breaking things as he changes it.

Re:More information (2)

slack_justyb (862874) | about a year ago | (#43315279)

I'm skeptical that would work. I think it would find its way into perpetual back-burner project. However, that just my subjective $0.02. Some teams are pretty good at keeping themselves out of sand traps, not many though.

I have movies on my mind.. (1)

nanospook (521118) | about a year ago | (#43314269)

Sounds like a merged sequel for Brokeback Mountain and The Matrix!

Standards (5, Funny)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about a year ago | (#43314341)

Standards [xkcd.com]

"Advance the Linux desktop..." (5, Insightful)

Torodung (31985) | about a year ago | (#43314359)

"Advance." You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means.

What is needed, before "advancing" anything, is to advance acceptance of the Linux desktop, and IMHO this ain't helping.

Re:"Advance the Linux desktop..." (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314761)

Spoken like a true Red Hat toadie.. Any threat to Red Hat dominance in all core Linux technologies must be eliminated!

Re:"Advance the Linux desktop..." (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314941)

The window to advance acceptance of the Linux desktop came and went during the Vista debacle. Damn shame, but didn't happen. (I blame lack of full-service printing drivers myself. _Everybody_ I converted, had to reboot into XP to check ink and clean heads. It was the killer app. They all went to W7 when it arrived.)

Advancing acceptance on the desktop doesn't bloody matter anymore. If Linux is going to have a large mainstream acceptance it must be on touchscreen portables. That's what most people are going to use, and if Linux doesn't have a big footprint there then it'll never gain respect on the rapidly reducing desktop slice either.

I'm not happy about it. I'm old. I don't like touchscreen mobiles. I like my mouse and w98-style desktop. But that doesn't make it less obvious that the world is moving away from a tech I like again. Linux needs to make the jump, or die as yet another 'good old days' software to wax about.

Re:"Advance the Linux desktop..." (1)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | about a year ago | (#43315317)

What I have to say about touchscreen devices: these people are walking into stores saying "I'd like to trade in my desktop with its 20" screen, fullsize keyboard, mouse, surround sound, for a weak, puny device with a 4" screen and an on screen chiclet keyboard". That is sheer insanity. Touschscreens portables are a niche market, desktops are for people who do real work. Even a laptop is not equivalent to a desktop in ergonomics and comfort.

Re:"Advance the Linux desktop..." (2)

thegarbz (1787294) | about a year ago | (#43315057)

To advance acceptance we need to provide features that people want, and marketing to show people can get those features. See Ubuntu.

There is no way in heck Debian was going to advance acceptance of linux on desktops due to certain design decisions that make Debian Debian.

In some cases the forks really do help.

Re:"Advance the Linux desktop..." (1)

fa2k (881632) | about a year ago | (#43315111)

Why? The good thing about the Internet and open source is that projects with 0.01 % market share or less can have viable communities and be useful to many people. Desktop Linux is a lot bigger than that, and it's doing its job for millions of people around the world

Protestant connection (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314375)

There's much similarities between these OS projects for linux and the 500 year old protestant movement when it comes to unity.

Re:Protestant connection (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315377)

:-)

I think an even better analogy would be the Monty Python's Life of Brian "Judean People's Front" and " People's Front of Judea"

While the emerging display servers fight it out... (5, Insightful)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | about a year ago | (#43314389)

While the emerging display servers fight it out, I think I'll just stick to the tried and true X11.

Re:While the emerging display servers fight it out (4, Informative)

ewieling (90662) | about a year ago | (#43314711)

This is what people did when Sun's NeWS, Display Postscript, Berlin/Fresco, and Y Window System were released. You are in good company..

Re:While the emerging display servers fight it out (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314769)

+1

Re:While the emerging display servers fight it out (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315105)

I think I'll just stick to the tried and true X11.

Of course it's tried and true, that's why X11 is the current standard graphics system for the free/open source community.

But the topic here isn't the current system, it's about the next one. X11 works very well and is mostly stable, but it's also extremely crufty, hard to maintain, low on performance and features, and the code is just plain gag-worthy.

A next generation replacement for X11 is long overdue, with backwards compatibility so that all those X11 clients continue to work, locally at least. The project should really have started 10-15 years ago, but better late than never.

Re:While the emerging display servers fight it out (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315175)

How noble and wise of you... especially you taking the time to tell us all the fucking obvious.

Explanation (5, Funny)

Alex Belits (437) | about a year ago | (#43314551)

Once Wayland components developers started trying to implement something practical, they discover, one by one, that they need those "unnecessary" X features after all, however there is no way to explain it to the rest of developers, who still believe that removing everything they don't immediately use in their narrow area is a great design practice.

Re:Explanation (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314883)

+1

It's obvious to anyone looking from the outside in.

They should've just went for X11R8, or X12. That is, just fix the real problems. And reset the clock on best practices by discarding the libraries and interfaces that everybody could agree needed to go.

Unix has it's problems, too. Plan9 proved that there was a much better way to do things. Most new features on Linux are half-assed because of the need to maintain some semblance of backwards compatibility. For example, namespaces---Plan9 executed namespaces perfectly; Linux namespaces are an abomination. And yet... they're good enough. Because reinventing the wheel just isn't cost effective.

Open source doesn't help, here, either. Back in the day it made more sense to reinvent everything, because the code for the current state-of-the-art was usually closed source. You usually had to break stuff if you wanted to fix problems.

But in the land of FOSS, you can actually go around and fix everything, and while much less sexy, it's usually the smarter move.

Re:Explanation (1)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | about a year ago | (#43315129)

No need for X11R8. Just a protocol extension using the extension mechanism that was built in particularly for the purpose of extending X for these reasons.

Re:Explanation (2)

Eravnrekaree (467752) | about a year ago | (#43315197)

Many of these comments are really off from what I have seen having an in depth knowledge of X and Linux programming. It seems like many just say things without knowing what they are talking about. There are no useless libraries or interfaces in the X standard. You could use the core X graphics primatives to develop an application. Though, there are newer ones that do more. The old ones need to be there for backwards compatability, but the do not get in the way of addign new features. The 2D X graphics primitatives co-exist with DRI apps, and the 2D X graphics primatives can be ported to use the DRI backend by means of a DDX driver that uses DRI as its backend, which will help improve the interoperability of everything. Its the same with Linux itself, there are new APIs that have been added for new functionality but that older APIs can be easily supported without difficulty with good engineering. Adding extensions and new APIs while maintaining backwards compatability is essential to have a useable OS for real, actual users.

Re:Explanation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315265)

I'm sure you're just dying to tell us why that fabulous 1980s client/server arch of X11* is really the correct design - especially since you need to it connect your motif app to your webserver once a day via a 1200/75 baud modem... and couldn't POSSIBLY do it any other way.

So go ahead.

* You know the design that makes X slow locally; slow remotely compared to Windows solutions, impossible to maintain and improve... not to mention modern apps that look and run like hammered shit.

Massachusetts Towns? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314593)

Who came up with these names anyways...

Next Woburn/Billerica (4, Funny)

us7892 (655683) | about a year ago | (#43314673)

I hear that Woburn/Billerica is the next fork of Wayland/Weston, while Wellesley/Southboro is the next fork of Northfield/Norwood. Coming on the heals of Woburn/Billerica is the Provincetown/Gloucester fork. And they're really planning a breakout with a Providence/Cranston fork....

Re:Next Woburn/Billerica (3, Funny)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about a year ago | (#43314699)

I'm waiting for the Wayland/Yutani fork myself.

Re:Next Woburn/Billerica (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315217)

My thought was to play bingo with a board consisting of Intel processor core names. We're pretty close to "Northwood" which was the original P4.

Re:Next Woburn/Billerica (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314735)

Allston/Brighton as well

Re:Next Woburn/Billerica (2)

dccase (56453) | about a year ago | (#43314833)

Allston/Brighton as well

I don't know.
In theory, being able to render good cheap food and live music sounds great. But it will attract way too many hipsters.

I hope there will be fewer headlines about Wayland because I live there and always click before remembering.

Keep on forkin' (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43314701)

Keep on forkin', never finish anything, and fragment the fuck out of everything. Make sure to give the enduser the conundrum of choice. The year of the linux desktop should be just around the corner.

Another fork? (2)

SplashMyBandit (1543257) | about a year ago | (#43314725)

Yet another fork of display technology projects for FOSS?

Are they trying to solve the problem by parallelizing the problem: break it into lots of little pieces and work simultaneously on them to arrive at a solution sooner?

Or is this a case of egos, where "those guys don't know anything I'll start anew and do it right"?

What matters is delivered stable technology. It doesn't have to be perfect or massively extendable: just stable, performant and delivered.

Re:Another fork? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315219)

Are they trying to solve the problem by parallelizing the problem: break it into lots of little pieces and work simultaneously on them to arrive at a solution sooner?

Maybe if they parallelized on a different dimension. Just give each display tech a small piece of your screen...

And, still, nobody seems to believe me. (0)

sidragon.net (1238654) | about a year ago | (#43314917)

We have redundant efforts with databases.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3590191&cid=43301755 [slashdot.org]

Redundant efforts with web browsers and phones.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3420641&cid=42739283 [slashdot.org]
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3457941&cid=42884767 [slashdot.org]

Then waste heat on anachronistic projects.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3469697&cid=42931869 [slashdot.org]

And now we have redundant efforts on display servers.

Doesn't anyone else the damn pattern here? As long as this nonsense continues, open source platforms are going to be inconsistent, slapped-together, lack-luster trash heaps without any clear focus or direction. All the while playing catch up to where desktops were over a decade ago, in an age where the desktop is rapidly diminishing into irrelevance.

Sigh.

Have fun with your fork, guys.

Re:And, still, nobody seems to believe me. (1)

gbjbaanb (229885) | about a year ago | (#43314981)

Even commercial software has the same problem, though the bigger products do tend to become a single entity simply because no-one else has the resource to work on it.

eg. look at Microsoft's data access technologies - ADO, RDO, ODBC, Jet, DAO, OLEDB, LINQ2SQL, EF3, EF4.

Then look at commercial companies - you want a DB, you can have Oracle, SqlServer, DB2, just to name the 3 most popular.

The "trouble" with FOSS is that there are enough people who want different things and can modify what exists rather than work with the existing teams, but also that the existing teams think they know best and have an arrogant dismissive attitude to others. Mind you, that also applies to the new contributors who think they know better than the "morons" currently managing the project.

I guess we all need a better sense of professionalism in the industry, but until that matures to the point where continually churning technology is seen as a good thing, we'll just have to put up with the way things are and let evolution decide which product becomes the one everyone uses.

Eye Candy!!! (0)

Mister Liberty (769145) | about a year ago | (#43315049)

X never bothered with that since it's got nothing whatsoever todo
with a display server.

These guys, whether Woeland, Murk, or Backwood, have got their ego's
where their heads uses to be, and the latter,... - well you know where.

ROTFL.

Sent from my X11 display server.

Northfield + Weston (3, Funny)

AaronLS (1804210) | about a year ago | (#43315087)

Shouldn't someone create a couple more forks with names like Eastcoast and Southwood so we can have all the cardinal directions covered? Then we can have programmer gang wars.

Re:Northfield + Weston (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315329)

uh.. we have those already......

vi vs emacs

star trek vs star wars

windows vs mac

perl vs everything ;p

Someone Forgets History (1)

christurkel (520220) | about a year ago | (#43315127)

Wayland is Linux specific because...

One of the things that went wrong with X was that we tried to pull too much of the OS into X so that we could run on every old platform out there. Or to put it more bluntly, bending over backwards for fringe platforms
He seems to forget that Linux was once a "fringe platform". Sigh.
https://archive.fosdem.org/2012/interview/kristian-hogsberg [fosdem.org]

If it's good enough for EFL, GTK and KDE... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315235)

If it's good enough for EFL, GTK and KDE it's good enough for everyone.

Especially Enlightenment... It literally does EVERYTHING. I could understand Gnome and KDE... But what could you possibly change that the EFL guys didn't feel worth changing ?

What worries me is this farce following the Ubuntu\Unity\Mir debacle... This trend to abandon or fork projects in late development even before hitting stable is not normal. Just how many people are working on Wayland ? Two dozens ? Three ? And how many are writing code for it ? A few dozen more... There's just not enough to go around...

It just needs to run GTK+, Qt, maybe EFL, FLTK (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315267)

Now that it is 2013, we now know that most of the GNU/Linux software will use GTK+, Qt, and some use EFL and FLTK. Make something that supports that supports only those 4 toolkits. This is GNU/Linux, not Windows. GNU/Linux is not permanently wedded to any one display protocol.

what's wrong with X? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43315353)

Can Wayland:
1. allow ssh -X?
2. write to any window (assuming permissions are okay) needing only a display and a Window id?

I guess what I'm really asking is what's wrong with X?

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