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Zuckerberg Lobbies For More Liberal Immigration Policies

timothy posted 1 year,12 days | from the old-immigrants-vs.-new-immigrants dept.

United States 484

An anonymous reader writes "Mark Zuckerberg, along with other notables such as Google's Eric Schmidt, Yahoo's Marissa Mayer and Reid Hoffman, co-founder of Linkedin, has launched a new immigration reform lobbying group called FWD.us. In an editorial in the Washington Post, Zuckerberg claims that immigrants are the key to a future knowledge-based economy in a United States which currently has 'a strange immigration policy for a nation of immigrants.' As expected, they are calling for more of the controversial H-1B visas which reached their maximum limit in less than a week this year, but those aren't the only things they're looking to change."

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484 comments

FWD.us? (5, Funny)

QRDeNameland (873957) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424823)

Facebook's Wealth Demands unlimited slaves?

Re:FWD.us? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424877)

Pretty much. This H1-B VISA push is called "in-sourcing" by the trade; you bring a bunch of folks from overseas and then you pay them less than what the local talent would want and you push the market down. Then you can hire local talent as well at a discount. If a large number of major corporations want something you'd be right to be suspicious.

Re:FWD.us? (5, Insightful)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424949)

The great thing about it is that once you artificially drive down wages with H1B's, then you get to advertise more fake jobs for those low wages. And when you don't get enough applicants, you complain that you need even *MORE* H1B visas, driving down wages even more. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

Re:FWD.us? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425031)

Are H1B visas artificially driving down wages or are protectionist immigration policies artificially driving up wages?

Re:FWD.us? (4, Insightful)

JDG1980 (2438906) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425155)

That's precisely the point – there is no "natural" state of what things "should" be, since the entire structure of the "free market" is itself the product of government intervention. (Multinational corporations are a direct creation of government, they sure as hell don't exist in a state of nature. Same with IP laws. And in a state of nature, you only control as much property as you and your friends/family can defend with armed force.) So the question then becomes: why should we structure the market to benefit billionaires like Zuckerberg instead of ordinary working programmers?

Re:FWD.us? (3, Insightful)

retchdog (1319261) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425269)

Multinational corporations are a direct creation of government, they sure as hell don't exist in a state of nature.

that's true only insofar as the government funded most of the information age (this is either because the market wasn't smart enough to do it by itself, or because there's a nefarious plot to force people to rely on the state, depending on your ideology).

in a world with as much communication technology as we have now, multinational corporations are sure as shit ``natural."

clue the second: multinationals do defend their property with armed force, in countries where they can't rely on the military and police to do it for them...

Re:FWD.us? (5, Insightful)

briancox2 (2417470) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425349)

The sworn purpose of the United States government is to act in the best interest of its citizens and their protection. Letting a company the size of Facebook effectively design immigration policy to the disadvantage of US citizens is actively working against that purpose. That's fraud.

Re:FWD.us? (5, Interesting)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425353)

What bullshit. "Protectionist" my ass.

The U.S. is the ONLY economy in the world where government *doesn't* work to make sure that their own citizens are first in line for jobs. Just try to emigrate to the U.K. Try to emigrate to Canada.

Somehow we have a majority of people that are willing to parrot the corporate position on issues. Protecting your citizen's job first is not "protectionism," it's doing what the god damned government is SUPPOSED to do.

Re:FWD.us? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425095)

As I know people on H1B can't be paid less than their US colleagues because you wouldn't be able to get H1B if they offer you smaller salary than average for this position. True is that it's not easy to change the job and if you are fired you will be deported so those people usually work harder (but working harder leads to promotions and bonuses in most well known technical companies)

Re:FWD.us? (1, Flamebait)

QRDeNameland (873957) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425113)

I also thought this was particularly galling:

"Given all this, why do we kick out the more than 40% of math and science graduate students who are not US citizens after educating them?"

Wait a sec...*who* educated them? Does the US gov't typically pay a foreign student's tuition, or do they have to either pay their own way or manage a grant/scholarship? My guess would be the latter case would be the overwhelming majority, with the only role of gov't in most cases being to grant a student visa. It's one thing to suggest that maybe 'we' should have program to help convert student visas to work visas, but to say we are "kicking out" people who were granted visas solely for education because they finished their education, which it is dubiously implied that "we" paid for, is simply dishonest.

Re:FWD.us? (1)

aristotle-dude (626586) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425217)

I also thought this was particularly galling:

"Given all this, why do we kick out the more than 40% of math and science graduate students who are not US citizens after educating them?"

Wait a sec...*who* educated them? Does the US gov't typically pay a foreign student's tuition, or do they have to either pay their own way or manage a grant/scholarship? My guess would be the latter case would be the overwhelming majority, with the only role of gov't in most cases being to grant a student visa. It's one thing to suggest that maybe 'we' should have program to help convert student visas to work visas, but to say we are "kicking out" people who were granted visas solely for education because they finished their education, which it is dubiously implied that "we" paid for, is simply dishonest.

Right, so while there are in the US, they are not using all of the infrastructure of your country for an extended period of time? Do you think all of the infrastructure on the university was paid for by student tuition alone?

Re:FWD.us? (0)

QRDeNameland (873957) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425303)

Right, so while there are in the US, they are not using all of the infrastructure of your country for an extended period of time? Do you think all of the infrastructure on the university was paid for by student tuition alone?

And how is that different than when I paid for my own education as a citizen? Despite whatever taxes paid for the country's and university's infrastructure, I would certainly not entertain the idea from someone like Zuck that "we" educated me.

By the same logic, we could claim that "we" paid for the vacations of foreign tourists as they use our infrastructure and go to museums that are tax supported. And it would be just as absurd an assertion as Zuck's is here.

Re:FWD.us? (1)

tangelogee (1486597) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425221)

Wait a sec...*who* educated them? Does the US gov't typically pay a foreign student's tuition, or do they have to either pay their own way or manage a grant/scholarship?.

No, we pay for it. With the taxes that go to the public school system.

Re:FWD.us? (1)

ackthpt (218170) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425335)

Pretty much. This H1-B VISA push is called "in-sourcing" by the trade; you bring a bunch of folks from overseas and then you pay them less than what the local talent would want and you push the market down. Then you can hire local talent as well at a discount.

If a large number of major corporations want something you'd be right to be suspicious.

Hi, this is the 1990's calling. We want our captialist ploy back.

Re:Ban H1B; Greencards instead (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425041)

If these people are truly needed in the United States, then get rid of H1B indentured servitude. H1Bs may only work for the company that brings them here and that company is free to threaten them - "we'll send you back" type stuff.

If they are really needed as much as they are portrayed (I honestly have no idea), then let them have a green card so that they can go to other businesses within the border.

If that happened, then their prices would come up and - gasp - they'd no longer be needed.

Re:Ban H1B; Greencards instead (5, Informative)

rgbscan (321794) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425167)

Choice quotes from a recent article on H1B visas I read over at Cringley...

"There is a misconception about the H-1B program that it was designed to allow companies to import workers with unique talents. There has long been a visa program for exactly that purpose. The O (for outstanding) visa program is for importing geniuses and nothing else. Interestingly enough, the O visa program has no quotas. So when Bill Gates complained about not being able to import enough top technical people for Microsoft, he wasn’t talking about geniuses, just normal coders."

and on later......

"Last year, nearly half of the H-1B visas went to companies like Infosys and Wipro, not marquee companies like Google and Microsoft. Companies such as Infosys are the workhorses of Silicon Valley, large IT firms that churn out the industry’s unglamorous connective tissue: things like boilerplate coding, user support, and network maintenance.

So, why does the US need to import labor for this lower-skilled work? Matloff says it has to do with wages and immobility. He argues that since employers sponsor H-1Bs visas, foreigners have a limited ability to negotiate higher salaries or switch jobs. If they do manage to change employers, it means they must restart any green card applications. Matloff says these realities “handcuff” H-1B visa holders to their employers. "

and further on...

"There are a number of common misunderstandings about the H-1B program, the first of which is its size. H-1B quotas are set by Congress and vary from 65,000 to 190,000 per year. While that would seem to limit the impact of the program on a nation of 300+ million, H-1B is way bigger than you think because each visa lasts for three years and can be extended for another three years after that.

At any moment, then, there are about 700,000 H-1B visa holders working in the USA.

Most of these H-1B visa holders work in Information Technology (IT) and most of those come from India. There are about 500,000 IT workers in the USA holding H-1B visas. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, there are about 2.5 million IT workers in America. So approximately 20 percent of the domestic IT workforce isn’t domestic at all, but imported on H-1B visas."

Re:FWD.us? (3, Interesting)

gutnor (872759) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425191)

Facebook is big enough to have branches where they want. They can get their slave anywhere in the world, having them in the US to pay taxes is certainly a better option.

Re:FWD.us? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425223)

Mark Fuckerberg can, well, go fuck himself. He's not entitled to that.

I immigrated here first! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424831)

Now everyone else please stay out.

Re:I immigrated here first! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424951)

If H1B workers were immigration, that would be an apt comparison. They're not. It's indentured servitude.

Re:I immigrated here first! (2)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424995)

If you're really pro-immigrant, then you would want them coming here as free men and women, not as indentured servants. These immigrants aren't being offered a leg up, they're being used and exploited.

Please, spare me. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425153)

Now everyone else please stay out.

This has nothing to do with folks who want to move to the US because: they want religious freedom or to escape tyranny or because they want to live in the Western Hemisphere for health reasons.

You see, this is about exploitation., for one. And this is also about labor market manipulation. Increase supply of workers while demand stays the same and what happens?

As has been said many times, the wages of developers and other IT professionals do not indicate a shortage of any kind. Wages haven't gone anywhere in over ten years and if you factor in inflation, they have gone DOWN.

If any employer is having a hard time finding qualified people, then there is something horribly dysfunctional in their recruiting process. Either they are not getting the word out to attract the right candidates or they are unrealistic in regards to the qualifications or salaries for said qualifications that they demand - hence the market manipulation with H1-Bs and immigration reform.

If they were trying to get a Ph.D in some esoteric CS field that very few people study, then I would possibly buy into that maybe they need a foreign born worker.

But for a developer? Please, spare me.

And the funny thing is, the biggest noise makers are folks out in Silicon Valley. Hello! Lockheed just canned a bunch of folks - very talented and qualified folks - who are looking for work. Folks that have worked on things that make your pathetic little "social networking" software look like child's play - so don't BS us with the "they don't have the skills"!

Have you thought of moving out of the high tax state of California and move to the low cost South? There are folks here just as smart as you folks who can make a nice living on $70,000 doing whatever you need.

God! You people kill me!

Democracy + Money (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424835)

Let's see how successful the biggest industry is at getting the laws they want implemented in government.

Re:Democracy + Money (2)

gl4ss (559668) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424885)

Let's see how successful the biggest industry is at getting the laws they want implemented in government.

what's the usual opinion then on the street? "we don't want european immigrants" ? yet the border is flowing with manual labor immigrants? why is it so easy to be an illegal alien but hard to be a tax paying legal alien?

Re:Democracy + Money (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424967)

Let's see how successful the biggest industry is at getting the laws they want implemented in government.

what's the usual opinion then on the street? "we don't want european immigrants" ? yet the border is flowing with manual labor immigrants? why is it so easy to be an illegal alien but hard to be a tax paying legal alien?

Being an illegal alien just means you dont file tax forms, but more often than not the employers of illegals (using false identities) still pay taxes as a way to appear legal. Plus, illegals do jobs that are pretty shitty. Legal immigrants, on the other hand, move for jobs that are higher paying (i.e. sought after) and therefore serve to deflate the labor market (as if it could get worse than it is).

For the supply side of labor market, more visas (or pushing more of them to higher paying jobs) doesn't make any sense. For the demand side (i.e. giant corporations seeking to cut every penny while retaining profit) it sounds great.

Pretty simple, really.

Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (5, Interesting)

briancox2 (2417470) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424863)

Perhaps Zuckerberg could explain what the indienous population of the US is not capable of knowing that immigrants know. If this is the "key to a future knowledge-based economy", what is it I cannot know as a US citizen that you need, Mr Zuckerberg?

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (0, Flamebait)

ScottCooperDotNet (929575) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424899)

Perhaps Zuckerberg could explain what the indienous population of the US is not capable of knowing that immigrants know.

How to spell? :P

Americans generally do not want to do STEM degrees, which many other cultures value more highly than we do.

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (4, Insightful)

jbolden (176878) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425045)

Americans are happy to do STEM degrees when they lead to lots of high paying jobs with good job security. Bring back long term contracts for STEM employees at high wages and watch how quickly Americans churn out STEM degrees.

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (1)

localman57 (1340533) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425237)

The best STEM people don't do it for the money. We'd do it for half what it pays, because we love the work. There's something to be said for enjoying more of your life than just nights and weekends...

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (1)

jbolden (176878) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425329)

First off I don't agree. I think there are lots of people who are good at many things and would do them if they paid well. And I think there are lots of crappy jobs that are able to attract works through high wages. Lets assume I agree and so lets exclude the "best STEM people". Zuckerburg was talking about a shortage. So what about the 2% or so who don't care about wages. The rest do care a great deal and can be attracted.

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (4, Interesting)

JDG1980 (2438906) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425091)

Americans generally do not want to do STEM degrees, which many other cultures value more highly than we do.

But which came first, the chicken or the egg?

It's hardly surprising that most Americans aren't interested in STEM degrees when these jobs are constantly under attack by H-1Bs and offshoring. Whenever businesses bitch about wages going up in STEM, the government steps in to bring in more indentured guest workers. In contrast, medical school graduation has remained constant since the 1980s [nytimes.com] at about 16,000 a year, and physician wages have consequently remained very high and continued to outpace inflation. Given the choice, why should an intelligent young person in America select STEM over medicine or business? Somehow the central tenets of our capitalist religion – like the notion that you get more of what you incentivize – seem to be forgotten with all this BS about "worker shortages".

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425159)

Americans generally do not want to do STEM degrees, which many other cultures value more highly than we do.

I'm an American grad student in a STEM Ph.D. program right now. It's not hard to see why Americans don't want to do STEM degrees. There's little to no employment opportunities, and what little jobs there are don't pay significantly more than what you could get with a non-STEM bachelor's degree. I've lost count of how many friends I've seen get their STEM Ph.D. and then go into jobs like bartending, retail, fast food, etc. or, at best, community college teaching because there were almost no post-docs or research positions available and their Ph.D. made them "overqualified" for jobs that would have been more of a lateral move. In fact, they only got the jobs they did by omitting the Ph.D. from their resume.

I'm strongly considering just dropping out with a Masters' degree, because several students who did that (because they failed a qualifying exam) left and had no trouble finding jobs that paid well--though even some of them had to omit the Masters from their resume.

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425187)

Not when all of their hard work is going to be made undesirable by employers like Mark Fuckerbag who import indentured slave labourers to work in a sweatshops and just be happy they are out of the slums of Calcutta.

I am a software developer making a good living while I can. This field is the last thing I'd want for my children. When my son asks me what he should do for a living I will respond with "something that can't be exported or devalued by Zuckerfucker and his cronies with their slave labourers -- but son, unfortunately I don't know what that is".

The end is near. The Corporations will kill us all and the government are so willing to help them do it.

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (1)

jeffmeden (135043) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424979)

Perhaps Zuckerberg could explain what the indienous population of the US is not capable of knowing that immigrants know. If this is the "key to a future knowledge-based economy", what is it I cannot know as a US citizen that you need, Mr Zuckerberg?

If I told you, I would have to hire you.

Sincerely,

Mark Z

Re:Indigenous vs. Immigrants? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425195)

From Wikipedia:
Thus, 1.7 percent of all people in the United States identified as American Indian or Alaska Native, either alone or in combination with one or more other races

I don't think 1.7% is enough to work the future economy with indigenous people alone. Perhaps if we were to automate more jobs they would have a chance.

Let there be NO underclass... (4, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424869)

Immigrants are great, but only so long as they have the same rights as the guy that wants to import/exploit them.

Re:Let there be NO underclass... (2)

Bob the Super Hamste (1152367) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425179)

This kind of tracks my thoughts but I would go much farther. If these H1B visa holders are so critical to a company then it would only seem to make sense that they should be the highest compensated (total compensation including benefits, company provided transportation, stock options, golden parachutes, etc) individuals in the company. Make that law and then we can see how many are actually needed.

education (5, Interesting)

schneidafunk (795759) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424881)

I guess they've given up on the American education system when making this statement: "Immigrants are the future of a knowledge based society"

Re:education (2, Insightful)

explosivejared (1186049) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425201)

Immigration is good for everyone, though especially for immigrants. Immigrants experience massive wage gains just by stepping over an imaginary line. Nations that receive immigrants receive solid overall growth benefits.

H1-B visas never fail to bring out the nationalist grief on /.. There is a fallacy that there is a set amount of technology work to do, and if you increase the labor supply, that makes everyone worse off. The labor supply is actually endogenous to the demand for labor. More skilled labor allows people to be able to rely more on skilled labor. It's counterintuitive I know, but it absolutely is.

Population growth is also endogenous to technological advancement. Increasing the amount of people integrated in a society, increases the chance that we advance.

Endogenous growth theory [wikipedia.org] , Paul Romer is going to win a Nobel prize for it one day. Learn it. Free movement of labor has been crucial to the advancement of humanity.

Sometimes I wonder.. (5, Insightful)

Xenkar (580240) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424889)

Wouldn't it make more sense for Zuckerberg to lobby the US government to restrict the amount of H1B visas going to overseas outsourcing firms? Because if they just raise the limit these overseas outsourcing firms will just gobble up more H1B visas and Zuck and company won't be better off for it.

Re:Sometimes I wonder.. (5, Insightful)

jedidiah (1196) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424969)

Yes. Quite. Blacklisting 4 Indian companies would leave plenty for everyone else.

Immigration (2, Interesting)

Stargoat (658863) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424891)

My sister-in-law has been living in the United States for the past six years. She has a pair of masters in Mathematics and Economics and after graduation 2 years ago a good job, making about 50k a year. Yet she stands a decent chance of deportation because she is now in a lotto for the H1B. Why exactly are we kicking out people with masters degrees and good jobs?

This is insanity. She had a good portion of her schooling supplemented by the US Government. She is now paying taxes and is a law-abiding citizen. So they kick her out. Insanity.

How about we start by giving every masters' degree candidate an H1B and go from there? Rather than the inane 20000 then 65000 pool that exists today. Utterly inane.

Re:Immigration (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424975)

Why give them an H1-B, tied specifically to an employer. Just make them a green card?

Re:Immigration (4, Insightful)

hackula (2596247) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425033)

The thing that stands out to be from your statement is that your sister has 2!!! STEM based MAs and still only makes 50k. All sympathies for her, but I can understand why someone might complain that the market is being diluted and driving wages down.

Re:Immigration (2)

Stargoat (658863) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425123)

Folks outside of major metropolitan areas make a little less. She wanted to live in a rural environment for her health and took a trade-off.

Heh. When she was in China, she was dying. Literally dying from the pollution / environment. About 82 pounds when she came over and losing weight every year. Came to the United States to a rural university, living as a grad student without two cents to rub together, and still put on weight.

Pulled herself up by her bootstraps. And now she's likely to get kicked out.

Re:Immigration (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425293)

Unmarried? Fix it quick - no deportation then.

Re:Immigration (1)

Jiro (131519) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425059)

Since when do law abiding citizens (or even non-law-abiding citizens) get deported?

Re:Immigration (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425103)

" She is now paying taxes and is a law-abiding citizen. So they kick her out. "

Except she's NOT a citizen. That one flew right over your head didn't it?

Re:Immigration (1)

Stargoat (658863) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425137)

whoosh. A law-abiding student visa holder. Heh. You know what I meant.

Re:Immigration (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425253)

Then SAY it, jackass. There's a definite distinction there that you didn't state- and it WAS implied that you believe one equates to the other with the way you said it.

Re:Immigration (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425129)

Someone born and raised in the US probably got overlooked for a place in said school and the in her following jobs because she had them. Theres two sides to the problem, or the problem wouldn't probably exist. While it's a bit daft, do you have a solution that'll help the immigrants while not screwing those who were born in the country? I do not. You essentially need to pick a side. If I was american, I guess I'd be opposed to the one trying to depress wages while owners and top level managment make more money that they ever really be able to spend.

Re:Immigration (1)

penglust (676005) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425139)

How about we not supplement immigrant education and put that money towards our own citizens. Maybe then they would not need so many student loans and could afford to work for less wages when they graduate.

The Universities are pricing themselves out of the market.

Re:Immigration (2)

spire3661 (1038968) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425145)

Because we have americans who have masters degrees that can take that job. It amazes me who people who werent born here feel they have a right to come and go as they please and any hinderance is 'stupid' and 'doesnt make sense'.

Re:Immigration (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425151)

The thing is your sister took up a slot in two master's programs that may have been available to a U.S. citizen.

How about she goes home and starts her own business, thereby improving your country?

Re:Immigration (4, Insightful)

gbjbaanb (229885) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425197)

This is insanity. She had a good portion of her schooling supplemented by the US Government

I agree, subsidising foreign nationals' schooling is insanity.

because (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425213)

your filthy beaner/zipperhead cousin took a real american's job.

do you not understand the fucking law? are you beaners/zipperheads that fucking stupid ? You claim your sister is smart and went though higher education, yet her cunt fucking face can't begin to grasp the the basic's of American law. just because she has some stupid piece of paper does not make her a greater human being than 1000000 other illegal pieces of trash. You don't understand, the law doesn't play favorites, especially when it comes to outright breaking it. Fuck your sister.

If she's that fucking stupid, then she deserves to be deported.

Claim she's Hispanic and start collecting welfare! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425251)

THEN she'll be allowed to stay.

Re:Immigration (1)

dj245 (732906) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425347)

My sister-in-law has been living in the United States for the past six years. She has a pair of masters in Mathematics and Economics and after graduation 2 years ago a good job, making about 50k a year. Yet she stands a decent chance of deportation because she is now in a lotto for the H1B. Why exactly are we kicking out people with masters degrees and good jobs?

This is insanity. She had a good portion of her schooling supplemented by the US Government. She is now paying taxes and is a law-abiding citizen. So they kick her out. Insanity.

How about we start by giving every masters' degree candidate an H1B and go from there? Rather than the inane 20000 then 65000 pool that exists today. Utterly inane.

I'm not sure what you are arguing here. You imply that you are living legally in the US with the use of "we". I would imagine that you are a citizen even, since you did not mention otherwise. Therefore, your brother should also be in the US legally. Then, your sister-in-law has a legal path to a green card through marriage. In fact, marriage is one of the fastest and easiest paths to a green card. Much faster than any employment-based path to a green card.

If we gave everybody with a Masters degree an H1B or a green card, I can easily imagine lots of questionable "colleges" popping up and handing degrees out like candy for a fee. Arguably that is already happening to some extent. The rules in place are there for mostly good reasons. The US has some of the most lax immigration laws in the world, permitting all sorts of shenanigans including anchor babies, playing games with student visas, immigration of non-Canadians with Canadian permanent residency into the US with preferred status (since Canada is our buddy), etc etc. Few other countries allow such foolishness.

Re:Immigration (1)

interkin3tic (1469267) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425359)

Why exactly are we kicking out people with masters degrees and good jobs? This is insanity.

You immediately answered your own question.

Headline correction needed (5, Insightful)

dkleinsc (563838) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424893)

"Mark Zuckerberg Lobbies for Cheaper Programmers Who Can't Quit"

Re:Headline correction needed (1)

Jiro (131519) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425169)

I am honestly puzzled and hope that someone could explain. Supposedly there were some reforms in the process around 2000 which fixed most of the problems with H1Bs. I am led to understand that they did not, but it's hard to find a good explanation of exactly why those reforms didn't help enough. Wikipedia has a vague explanation of "However, many people are ineligible to file I-485 at the current time due to the widespread retrogression in priority dates" which I find completely incomprehensible. Can anyone explain exactly what the problem is with those reforms?

Cheap labor FTW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424903)

Nice try guys, but anyone who is paying attention knows what the true motive is behind the tech immigration reform. Starts with a P and ends with a T.

Shocker (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424915)

Zuckerberg et. al. want more H-1Bs to drive down wages of tech workers, both of native workers and those tied to a company by the H-1B sponsorship. That whole cartel has already had problems with their "gentleman's agreement" not to poach eachother's workers, thereby driving up wages.

S.T.E.M. Education (5, Insightful)

MatthewNewberg (519685) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424919)

It would be nice if these companies would be putting this time and effort into pushing for / funding more S.T.E.M. education in the US.

Re:S.T.E.M. Education (1)

Dishwasha (125561) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425209)

If I had some mod points I'd up you. This is one of the more insightful posts I've seen in a while.

Re:S.T.E.M. Education (1)

SirGarlon (845873) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425225)

That costs more money than lobbying Congress to change the rules in their favor. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders *not* to fund education if there is a cheaper way to fill up the cube farm.

The cap should be lowered (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424925)

Less immigrants should be hired.

In a parallel universe (4, Insightful)

Spy Handler (822350) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424933)

Zuckerberg didn't start his own company, he graduated college and got a job as a software developer.

Zuckerberg PU: "Corporations lobbying the government to import cheap labor from the third world is unethical. It amounts to indentured servitude and it does nothing but lower wages for the local workforce. It is but a scheme to let the rich grow richer and reduce the middle class to menial labor serfs."

Re:In a parallel universe (1)

TheSpoom (715771) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425343)

Yeah, but in that parallel universe, Zuckerberg wouldn't be a job creator and thus we shouldn't listen to him. /republican_strawman

Playing the "it's still not so bad here" game. (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424953)

The system leeches from the few productive people and redistributes the production to the bankers.
Most smart people eventually figure this out, which is a major disincentive to be productive.
So, the system runs out of productive people. Since it's still not as bad here compared to many other countries, they can bring in people from other worse-off areas and get them to be productive here... for a while anyway.

How about we incentivise local people to be more productive instead?

By the way, "it's still not that bad here" is a slippery slope thinking. We're not that far off from falling anyway.

The step after profit! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424955)

1. Steal idea.
2. Develop human Skinner Box.
3. Profit
4. Attempt to influence government to enhance profit.

Benefits to the Wealthy of Overseas Countries? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43424965)

In these articles they talk about fast-tracking graduates to US Citizenship, etc, but the funny thing about graduate students: Some of them are just cash-cows for universities--this is particularly true for business schools, and "IT" type degrees when they focus on the Masters/MBA level of education. The people they are bringing in have money, not necessarily the best talent world-wide. Offering these folks extra benefits just benefits the wealthy of foreign countries.

Cheaper than teaching how to fish (1)

TCTTR (2884023) | 1 year,12 days | (#43424991)

Globalisation was meant to end wars by allowing a country's production exces to be sold elsewhere for a fair price, but when applied to humans at what point does it become slavery or geopolitical body shopping?

As someone who employs programmers... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425003)

I can say that they are generally arrogant and get paid too much. I welcome some normalization of the profession with hopefully a sizeable influx of fresh talent.

Re:As someone who employs programmers... (1)

MatthewNewberg (519685) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425185)

If "programmers" were overpaid and arrogant wouldn't a large group of people want to go out and become programmers because it is easy and highly paid. That hasn't been the case for the last 10 years and that is why salaries are going up. The market is now just adjusting itself,people are realizing Computer Science could be a good field to be in. If salaries do not stay that way, then people are going into other fields. http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/print-edition/2012/01/27/number-of-computer-grads-on-rise-after.html?page=all [bizjournals.com] Software development is a profession, it takes years of education and experience to do an effective job, and should demand a higher salary.

Do what the Manufacturers are doing (1)

ShopMgr (1639595) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425009)

Move the plants there! The talent is there, the wages are cheap, the regulations are minimal. So, take your company and get the fuck out!

not surprised (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425037)

Just more proof of autistic, liberal, jewbookery.

How about taxing them too? (5, Insightful)

retech (1228598) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425051)

No doubt Zuckerberg wants more slave labor to pay the tax base that he and his corp. are evading. I have a better idea Mark, move your ass and everyone else to an impoverished nation. No doubt you'll enjoy the infrastructure, benefits, gov't, and protection that all affords you.

Re:How about taxing them too? (1)

Dishwasha (125561) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425193)

I agree. I say for every tax evading loophole a company uses, the fewer H-1B visas they are allowed.

The Need for H-1B Debunked (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425085)

It's all about the Benjamins. Check out this article from ComputerWorld: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9238180/Career_Watch_A_debunker_of_H_1B_claims [computerworld.com]

Re:The Need for H-1B Debunked (1)

Dahamma (304068) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425331)

Debunked my ass. A different article from the SAME source claims in the US "it's near full employment for software developers, whose unemployment rate falls from last year to 2.2%".

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9238266/Unemployment_rate_for_electrical_engineers_soars [computerworld.com]

As a software engineer, I appreciate the scarcity that has caused salaries in the Bay Area to rise more quickly in the last couple of years. But as someone who has interviewed endless streams of unqualified people, the industry really does need a larger applicant pool. (Lets face, it, the percentage of current software engineers who are just plain bad is well above 2.2%, so that's about as close to full employment as it will get).

I agree with him (0)

fustakrakich (1673220) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425147)

All the borders must be torn down, so people can move as easily as capital, and put the slave traders out of business. Every border is a "Berlin Wall".

I have no problem with immigrants (2)

Endo13 (1000782) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425177)

Provided they're legally and actually immigrating, and not just stopping by temporarily to make a quick buck. Our enconomy is already hurting and unemployment is high, we don't need leeches stopping in to steal our jobs then running off to spend the money elsewhere.

My 0.02.

Ah, the cycle of life.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,12 days | (#43425183)

It's so much easier to ignore the education problems of Americans, while paying international people less and less for the "privilege" of becoming the same Americans who will be discarded the same way once they become citizens.

H1-B is very problematic, but (2)

Omnifarious (11933) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425199)

I consider H1-B's to be very problematic because of how dependent they make someone on an employer. I think there's a real risk of the employer employee relationship becoming too coercive and akin to slavery.

But, I have no problem with more immigration if the result is full citizens with the same rights as everybody else.

Perhaps we should have an accelerated citizenship process for people who've been here on an H1-B visa for over a year. That, in combination with actually reducing the number of H1-B visas granted would be something I could get behind.

The main negative effect I see from my proposal is that it reduces these large corporations incentive to improve the educational and vocational rehabilitation system to create the workers they need from our existing citizenry.

Overqualification (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425301)

Please explain how we have no one from this country qualified to do these jobs and our H.R. departments are continuously throwing resumes away because the candidate is "overqualified."

Greed, plain greed (3, Insightful)

Squidlips (1206004) | 1 year,12 days | (#43425351)

The corporate weasels who are pushing this just want to be able to pay their workers less so they can get bigger bonuses at the end of the year. This is bad for the economy and bad for workers.
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