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Jolla Ports Wayland To Android GPU Drivers

timothy posted about a year ago | from the cross-platform-the-hard-way dept.

Graphics 90

An anonymous reader writes "A Jolla Sailfish OS engineer has ported Wayland to run on Android GPU drivers. The implementation uses libhybis with the Android driver so that the rest of the operating system can be a conventional glibc-based Linux operating system, such as Mer / Sailfish OS. The code is to be LGPL licensed. The reported reasoning for making Wayland support Android GPU drivers was difficulty in ODM vendors not wishing to offer driver support for platforms aside from Android."

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Jolla Sailfish can suck on my shell (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43427513)

Boooya!

Profitz (1)

girlintraining (1395911) | about a year ago | (#43427735)

The reported reasoning for making Wayland support Android GPU drivers was difficulty in ODM vendors not wishing to offer driver support for platforms aside from Android."

Why support yesterday's phone when you can just tell your users to buy tomorrow's? This kind of progressive thinking hurts profits. Profits are people. Therefore, you should be arrested. :/

Re:Profitz (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43428073)

The reported reasoning for making Wayland support Android GPU drivers was difficulty in ODM vendors not wishing to offer driver support for platforms aside from Android."

Why support yesterday's phone when you can just tell your users to buy tomorrow's? This kind of progressive thinking hurts profits. Profits are people. Therefore, you should be arrested. :/

I am glad Wayland has been ported to Android. Now there's another platform I won't be using it on!

Seriously, Wayland is a solution in search of a problem and seems damned determined to repeat the mistakes of Windows. Cleaning up the X code would be so much better for everyone.

Re:Profitz (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43428169)

I love reading the same, predictable, butthurt impotent whining, every single time a wayland story comes up.

Keep whining, you butthurt nitwit. It does not do anything. Nobody cares if *you* personally think wayland is a solution in search of a problem or not. You are a nobody with no idea, and you are just parroting what other nobodies with no idea have told you.

Re:Profitz (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43428719)

You post is a weird form of recursive insult.

Your post is EXACTLY what you accuse the op of.

Congratulations. You just GNU'd your self.

Re:Profitz (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43429275)

Are you retarded, or just a nincompoop? I said I love reading those posts, and I love insulting the morons who make the posts too. I'm not whining about anything.

And it's "yourself", you sub-chimp-IQ idiot.

Re:Profitz (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43429429)

Funny, how everyone but you can see that those insults are actually, how you see yourself, and how those comments are away to vent your self-hatred.

If you got raped, seek professional help. Self-hatred isn't going to solve it.

Re:Profitz (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43430165)

Keep crying impotently about Wayland. Also, learn how to use punctuation; you write like a fucking imbecile.

Re:Profitz (1)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#43429667)

Its coming from the company that is making alternative OS for cellphones, the kind that could use existing, already in market cellphones, to expand their userbase giving ways for people to install it on them (if Sailfish runs in Wayland, anyway), without having to wait for other companies to bundle sailfish with their phones or to them to be available in all markets (the announced ones so far were targeted for China or India, i think)

Eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43427755)

Who ported what for why?

Re:Eh? (5, Informative)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43427825)

Jolla is a bunch of x-Nokia engineers continuing the work Nokia was doing on MeeGo. The name of their version of MeeGo is Sailfish. Wayland is a next generation display manager similar to Aqua on Mac that is currently looking to replace some of X11's functionality. Jolla ported the Android drivers over to Wayland so that Sailfish can run on GPUs designed for Android. This allows Jolla to buy off the shelf (cheap) GPUs and run Sailfish on it i.e. keep hardware parts costs down.

The use of inexpensive hardware means that Jolla is not going to be only at higher price points. They are producing a mainstream phone and there had been debate about that. This is important because we now for sure that Sailfish is going with Wayland unlike MeeGo which used a more primitive direct system.

In short
a) Wayland is cool
b) Sailfish is cool
c) Jolla is cool

So all around a classic /. news for nerds story.

Re:Eh? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43427881)

I see. So basically the takeaway is that nothing will come of it then.

Sailfish (2)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43428065)

Sailfish runs Android apps and has a better interface. I could see Jolla being bought by Motorola or HTC or Sony as a way to get back into the game against Samsung. I could also see Samsung buying them if Tizen doesn't work out for Samsung.

If I had to guess 25% Sailfish is picked up by a mainstream brand by 2018.

Re:Sailfish (0)

snadrus (930168) | about a year ago | (#43428341)

Sailfish doesn't run Android apps. It runs Qt-based apps (KDE apps). It now can run them on Android hardware.

Re:Sailfish (5, Informative)

preflex (1840068) | about a year ago | (#43428563)

No, Sailfish does run android apps. [jollablog.net] . IIRC, they licensed Alien Dalvik [myriadgroup.com] .

Re:Sailfish (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43428875)

As preflex pointed out, yes Sailfish does run Android as well as several forms of Qt apps.

Re:Sailfish (1)

MrMickS (568778) | about a year ago | (#43432053)

Sailfish runs Android apps and has a better interface. I could see Jolla being bought by Motorola or HTC or Sony as a way to get back into the game against Samsung.

Why would Google (Motorola) buy them? I think someone has missed an important development.

Re:Sailfish (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43432193)

Why would Google (Motorola) buy them? I think someone has missed an important development.

Good point, that's a different situation. I wasn't think about Google issue.

Re:Eh? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43427907)

Thank you my man. Yes, I could have googled that information (actually I did after posting), but I wanted to make the point about how incomprehensible the summary was as posted. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks Jolla, Sailfish and Wayland aren't exactly household names.

Re:Eh? (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43428045)

I agree. If you aren't following both phones and LInux that summary had undefined vocab. And even if someone understood what the works meant it wasn't clear why the port mattered.

Re:Eh? (2)

AvitarX (172628) | about a year ago | (#43428077)

Wayland is pretty heavily represented here, but Jolla and sailfish I remember only seeing once, and it was a while ago, and I didn't remember.

but, I personally like this site because I don't need to wade through parenthetocals while reading summaries of tech stories, I would of benefited from context here, but It's the price I pay for all the countless times I benefit from lack of such.

Re:Eh? (4, Interesting)

Carewolf (581105) | about a year ago | (#43427949)

In short
a) Wayland is cool
b) Sailfish is cool
c) Jolla is cool

So all around a classic /. news for nerds story.

And
d) They just made Mir even more redundant.

The only thing Mir had going to it was that it was Wayland with Android drivers.

Mir (2)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43427995)

Agreed. Jolla is way ahead of Canonical. And their people know a lot more about the phone business. I'd need really good odds to put money on Mir in that fight.

Re:Eh? (3, Funny)

girlintraining (1395911) | about a year ago | (#43428033)

a) Wayland is cool
b) Sailfish is cool
c) Jolla is cool
So all around a classic /. news for nerds story.

I really only have one question... why are all these open source projects named after ex-girlfriends?

Re:Eh? (4, Funny)

wierd_w (1375923) | about a year ago | (#43428087)

While the last two clearly sound like stripper/porno names, like "candi", .....

Seriously, you had an ex girlfriend named... Wayland?

Did "she" have stubble too?

Re:Eh? (4, Informative)

girlintraining (1395911) | about a year ago | (#43428587)

Seriously, you had an ex girlfriend named... Wayland? Did "she" have stubble too?

Google for "Susan Wayland" sometime, when you're not at work. When you're done wanking, come back and tell me about that 'stubble' she has.

Re:Eh? (2)

wierd_w (1375923) | about a year ago | (#43428909)

Sadly, as an asexual I don't wank off to anything..
My first reaction? "Wow, she could take an eye out with those." Followed by "actually, it looks like she has a butt on her chest."

Overall, she does pull off the skin tight latex fettish look quite nicely though.

Still, in regards to "Wayland", the other names are all first names, while in this case, it's a last name. As a first name "Wayland" is usually used for males. Hence the reference.

(Also, unlikely that anyone here that isn't really a CEO posting as AC could claim Ms. Wayland as an "ex girlfriend" anyway. ;) )

So, in my mind, I saw this:

Wayland (aka, "lola" from the song), with bleach blondes "Jolla" and "Sailfish" doing their original "dance stage sensation" on the stripper pole with dollar bills whirling around, as Wayland does his female impersonator gig as Whitney Houston, and the other two undulate provocatively on the two brass stripper poles on stage, doing backup vocals.

I have a overactive imagination, and it wasn't a particularly attractive mental image.

The latex queen is much better though, thank you.

Re:Eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43429457)

Then get a therapy. A hormone therapy if necessary. I mean you yourself say "sadly". So you really are not who you want to be. I think in this day and age, that's not a problem anymore, and you can be whoever you want. So go ahead! :)

Re:Eh? (1)

wierd_w (1375923) | about a year ago | (#43429525)

You misunderstand,

I said "sadly", because wanking off is what is considered to be normal, thus my lack of impulse to do so is intrinsically "abnormal".

It isn't that I hold regret about this, merely that being of a sexuality type that is often considered to be abnormal has certain undesirable social consequences, which is what I find sad.

I simply have no sexual reaction to such imagery. This can lead to akward social situations. That is what is meant by "sadly."

Re:Eh? (1)

Whalephant (216999) | about a year ago | (#43432853)

Thanks for the tip, Susan is gorgeous. Jolla should use her in their advertising campaign.

Re:Eh? (2)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about a year ago | (#43432523)

While the last two clearly sound like stripper/porno names, like "candi", .....

Wait what? Sailfish is now a stripper/porno name? I've clearly been out of the loop for too long. Out of interest does she work with Marlin?

Re:Eh? (4, Funny)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about a year ago | (#43429395)

You had a girlfriend called Sailfish?

Ummm... OK.

Re:Eh? (2)

wierd_w (1375923) | about a year ago | (#43429623)

(Groucho marx voice)

"Ain't nuttin wrong with that tuna, I'l say!"

[Too easy. Sorry.]

Re:Eh? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43428297)

Medusa is cool too. Don't be a bitch and forget about Medusa.

Correction (1)

snadrus (930168) | about a year ago | (#43428305)

Correction:
They ported (wrote a new backend for) Wayland to sit atop Android drivers (which will sit atop Android hardware).

Your conclusions are right: Linux apps (on toolkits with Wayland ports) can now run on this.
This has nothing to do with running Android apps. Though getting a great display manager on Android hardware is a good first step if that's where you're going. You'd still need the whole Android subsystem with adapters (AudioFlinger APIs in Alsa or whatever sound subsystem they use, SurfaceFlinger APIs on Wayland).

Re:Correction (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43428865)

I agree this is about Android hardware.

To the best of my knowledge Sailfish already has the Android runtime subsystem same as BB10, I think it just runs them full screen only. But these are independent projects.

Re:Eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43430857)

Actually, MeeGo's "more primitive direct system" was X11. You could ssh -X into a Linux box and start LibreOffice. Unfortunately, the interface didn't quite work with remote X apps (no keyboard), so it wasn't all that useful. But it was X11.

Re:Eh? (2)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43430985)

I think the graphics were handled by the Qt framebuffer driver. Obviously it could run X11, the way you can on an Mac, but that's different than saying X11 was the primary display system.

Re:Eh? (1)

evandrofisico (933918) | about a year ago | (#43432013)

On Meego (specifically the N9 ) the whole enviroment uses X11, not as an option, but as the primary display server.

Re:Eh? (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43432163)

Do you have a link for that?

Re:Eh? (1)

ladoga (931420) | about a year ago | (#43432835)

From my Nokia N9:

~ $ ps -A | grep Xorg
  553 root     244:41 /usr/bin/Xorg -logfile /tmp/Xorg.0.log -core -background none -logverbose 1 -verbose -1 -nocursor -noreset -novtswitch -s 0 -sigstop
17005 user       0:00 grep Xorg

~ $ dpkg -l | grep xserver-xorg
ii  xserver-xorg-core                                              2:1.9.5-meego2121+0m8                                          Xorg X server - core server
ii  xserver-xorg-input-evdev                                       1:2.6.0-1-meego1042+0m6                                        X.Org X server -- evdev input driver
ii  xserver-xorg-input-mtev                                        0.1.14+0m6                                                     Multitouch XI2 input driver
ii  xserver-xorg-video-fbdev                                       1:0.4.0-264+0m8                                                X.Org X server -- fbdev display driver

Re:Eh? (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43433047)

You see the xserver-xorg-video-fbdev. That's the X11 framebuffer device. Typically it used to emulate X11 onto a device that doesn't support it. This is how for example X11 works on Aqua.

I'm not an expert on X11 and this is going to go over my head rather quickly but I think your listing is proving the opposite of what you think it is proving.

Re:Eh? (1)

ladoga (931420) | about a year ago | (#43434133)

I don't know For what it's worth, here's the package description for xserver-xorg-fbdev:

Description: X.Org X server -- fbdev display driver This package provides the driver for TI's OMAP 3 SoCs with a POWERVR SGX graphics core.

...and drivers being loaded:

~ $ zcat /var/log/Xorg.0.log.0.gz | grep driver
[ 11.461] (==) Matched fbdev as autoconfigured driver 0
[ 11.461] (==) Assigned the driver to the xf86ConfigLayout
[ 11.462] (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers/fbdev_drv.so
[ 11.474] (II) FBDEV: driver for framebuffer: fbdev
[ 11.505] (II) FBDEV(0): [DRI2] DRI driver: pvr2d

Re:Eh? (2)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43439501)

Exactly you are running X11 against a framebuffer. Which means X11 is writing to memory and someone else is handling putting that on the screen.

Re:Eh? (4, Informative)

wierd_w (1375923) | about a year ago | (#43427843)

Wayland is an alternative windowing system for *nix OSes; a counterpart to Xorg, Xfree86, X11, and pals. While the others are all based on the original X windowing system, Wayland is simply different in that respect.

The story is about successfully porting the Wayland windowing system to be able to work with android flavored GPU drivers, presumably because many SoC makers only target Android as a platform.

Why?

Suppose you want to build a custom *nix flavored tablet distro to run on these smexxy new atom and arm cpus hitting the market, and the SoC solutions look attractive. "Oh noez!" You shout in exasperation "they won't gives me duh sourcez codez! I cannuh compile native kernal driverz an shitz!"

With this hybrid mashup, this port of Wayland can use the vendor created android drivers out of the box, making the tight fisted "no, our precious can't be shared! Bad Linuxesss.. Bad!" Behavior coming from nVidia and Broadcom in respect to this issue, much less of a showstopper, and more of just a petty annoyance.

Re:Eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43427913)

I can see a reason to run an X-Server on top of quartz or other Windows or Android, but I don't see a point in running Wayland in between. If I want a fancy GUI it is already there in native. If I want useful networking abilities Wayland doesn't deliver.

Re:Eh? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43428397)

Well, just from the summary it says they ported Wayland to run on Android GPU drivers, so I assume that the point is not to run Wayland on Android but to use Android's GPU drivers for Sailfish OS. That would make sense because trying to persuade hardware vendors to make a whole new driver branch for a yet-unproven OS is not something most developers would look forward to. At least that's just my impression - I'm off now to go read the fine article.

Re:Eh? (2)

snadrus (930168) | about a year ago | (#43428417)

To run a C++ (native) app on Android hardware (because that hardware is cheap to buy) supported by only closed drivers:
- Using Android's SurfaceFlinger API means your apps use Dalvik, fail.
- SurfaceFlinger is a bit basic to extend.
- X11 isn't getting ported, Difficult?
- Wayland shows more promise, (and sends fewer network packets with FreeRDP than X forwarding).
- Ubuntu Mir is trying something similar.

Then write an X11 server in Java (1)

tepples (727027) | about a year ago | (#43429307)

Using Android's SurfaceFlinger API means your apps use Dalvik [...] X11 isn't getting ported

Unless your X11 server uses Dalvik. This exists [google.com] .

Re:Eh? (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43428911)

X11 couldn't possibly run this GUI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-lVkBCUrAY [youtube.com]
X11 does not support touch. X11 does not support theme based icon recoloring.
X11 does not support 1/4 sizing screens
etc..

Re:Eh? (2)

akanouras (1431981) | about a year ago | (#43429619)

X11 supports touch [x.org] , as does Wayland of course.

The amazing GUI you saw in that video is built on Qt, and can be run on any platform supported by it with some minimal effort.

"theme based icon recoloring" is implemented in the GUI toolkits.
"1/4 sizing screens" is a job for the compositor, in either system.

The biggest user-visible difference between Wayland and X11 will be tear-free display in all circumstances, provided the application's developer has half a clue.

The biggest differences for developers will be the sane (for today's requirements) architecture and vastly simplified API (a big deal in itself).

Come on - we are not stupid (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#43429679)

I haven't looked at the first link (it's a bit rude for people to make points with videos which could be a link to something NSFW for all I know), but your second point is worthless since it's not bare X11 but window managers, which have been doing such things since before slashdot existed (E16). The third point could be done with the window manager as well (once again E16 desktop snapshots in the pager were doing that before this site existed).

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43431015)

I haven't looked at the first link (it's a bit rude for people to make points with videos which could be a link to something NSFW for all I know)

The link is youtube it is censored.

As for Enlightenment once Tizen which uses X11 gets those features working then it is fair to say Enlightenment supports them. Supporting them on a desktop ain't the same thing, desktops don't have to use hardware which is power efficient.

As for the Enlightenment pager that's new to me. Whose pager are you talking about?

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#43438911)

Raster did it in about 1995-96 - interactive snapshots of the current desktops at reduced size at specified intervals. You could drag windows from one desktop to the other in those little images (of arbitrary size) of the desktops even with the hardware back then - so your third point was solved in a window manager around 18 years ago, thus it's no big deal if the unmodifiable WM embedded into Wayland can do it.
Just like the last effort where you tried to fool people with a pointless block diagram and just wave away internal complexity you are showing that you are going out of your depth with your comparisons.

It would be far more convincing if you took the line "look at what Wayland can do today" instead of the childish and pointless "X sux and Wayland will bury it once it's ready".

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43439489)

I think it is a pretty easy question. Whose pager. Who made this supposed pager?

And the arguments over Wayland have always been over future directions. As for X11 sucking. If X11 was good there wouldn't be a Wayland project in the first place. There is nothing childish about it. X11 failed at delivering a system for Linux comparable to what exists on Windows and Mac. X11 failed at delivering a system for phones. At the thing everyone claims X11 is designed to do really well, remote applications it also fails in practice.

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#43439793)

I think it is a pretty easy question. Whose pager. Who made this supposed pager?

As I tried to point out above, Raster's pager in the Enlightenment window manager version 0.16 (or earlier) in 1995-96. You should be familiar with Raster if you know anything at all about Wayland since he's done a major widget set for it.

X11 failed at delivering a system for phones

I've got it on my Nokia N900, it's on Kindles - there may be better for such situations but it has certainly delivered so that's yet another example of you not knowing what you are talking about.
Some advice - just write what you know about and don't make things up to fill the gaps. When you don't it means people like me have to come in and embarrass you by pointing out that you are lying to the kiddies.

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43440475)

As I tried to point out above, Raster's pager in the Enlightenment window manager version 0.16 (or earlier) in 1995-96

Oh I see you aren't talking about an actual GUI pager but something for Englightenment. Well I don't know much about Enlightenment but what I do know is they have tied themselves to Tizen continuing the Framebuffer approach of MeeGo. It has gotten Enlightenment specific but Enlightenment in general isn't running against raw X11 but rather against Evas which handles many of the primitives that X11 normally would. X11 is a supported subsystem.

So while I have no idea what you are talking about. I do know the Enlightenment guys don't agree with your rosy assessment of how well Enlightenment worked with X11 which is why they are building entirely new layers in EFL to avoid X11.

So who exactly is lying to the kiddies here?

I've got it on my Nokia N900, it's on Kindles - there may be better for such situations but it has certainly delivered so that's yet another example of you not knowing what you are talking about.

Maemo was not a shinning success. And why wouldn't Kindle use X11? That's a text base operating system. If you mean in graphical mode then no, it is using Android.

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#43443943)

Are you pretending to be stupid now or just forgetting your three assertions above? Please look at them once more and try again if you want to understand where the pager stuff came from. As for putting words in other's mouths - well you did it with Keith Packard before so I shouldn't be surprised you are doing it now with people you've only just heard of (depressing, since in an earlier thread I asked you what could Wayland deliver that Evas can't already do - you never bothered to find out did you and instead just spat out lies).
Also you are confusing different models of kindles - many have X11 and are eink, others are colour android tablets - yet then you pretend you know what you are writing about after even making such a newbie mistake!

I'm sure the developers of Wayland would be better off without a clueless fanboy waving his turgid ignorance around while cheering for them. It's counterproductive. I'm disgusted that I fell for your trick of pretending you know about the system when it looks like you haven't even read the FAQ. Your "text base operating system" mistake is a bit of a clue that whatever you know about, it's most definitely not graphical interfaces to computers. Why not be a fanboy for something you actually know about instead of just clueless rants about how X sucks and how something you cannot begin to understand is going to be magically better some day? If you want to help Wayland just post links to stuff written by people with a clue instead of utterly stupid lies created to hide your ignorance.

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43443977)

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. What I do know is that you came into this thread making pretty strong claims about Enlightenment and X11 that the Enlightenment developers completely disagree with. Your name calling doesn't change anything.

Re:Come on - we are not stupid (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#43444161)

I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

That is my entire point - you started out with some assertions that were incorrect but you don't know enough about the subject matter to be aware of that and refuse to listen or find out for yourself.

Re:Eh? (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | about a year ago | (#43430883)

X11 couldn't possibly run this GUI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-lVkBCUrAY [youtube.com]

Of course it can. Have you never seen a Nokia N9?

X11 does not support touch.

Huh? Now you're claiming that neither the N9 nor event the N900 exists.

X11 does not support 1/4 sizing screens
etc.

Once again - never seen a Nokia Maemo or Meego phone?

Re:Eh? (1)

jbolden (176878) | about a year ago | (#43430981)

Of course it can. Have you never seen a Nokia N9?

Yes I have and the N9 didn't use X11. It used the Qt framebuffer driver.

Re:Eh? (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | about a year ago | (#43431183)

Of course it can. Have you never seen a Nokia N9?

Yes I have and the N9 didn't use X11. It used the Qt framebuffer driver.

Ok, my bad. Didn't realise the rot had set in so soon :)

Re:Eh? (1)

ladoga (931420) | about a year ago | (#43433771)

Well, I don't know what N9 you guys are talking about, but my Nokia N9 (RM696) definitely uses X11 as default.

~ $ Xorg -version

X.Org X Server 1.9.5
Release Date: 2011-03-17
X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
Build Operating System: Linux 2.6.32-5-amd64 arm
Current Operating System: Linux rm696 2.6.32.54-dfl61-20121301 #1 PREEMPT Mon Apr 2 14:14:32 EEST 2012 armv7l

and

~ $ pstree
init-+-Xorg
|-Xsession---sleep
<snip>

Re:Eh? (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | about a year ago | (#43439193)

Yes, that's what I thought, but I don't have my N9 any more and jbolden (176878) sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

Re:Eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43434023)

that youtube link needs flash to be installed ... fail

Correction - not *nix - linux only (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#43429647)

Wayland is an alternative windowing system for *nix OSes

It's linux only due to some design choices that rely on other things that are only found in linux. I think the idea was that by not having the portability, configurability or extendibility of X they could get things done more quickly.
I thought SVGAlib was cool too so best of luck to the Wayland people - but there's not much point comparing it to X just now, especially since they don't have much to demonstrate actually running yet.

I used to be down with the free software kids (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43427775)

But now I'm just thinking "you ported what to the what now?"

Thats more of a Netbsd thing (0, Troll)

CdBee (742846) | about a year ago | (#43427837)

'cos I really need source compatibility between my toaster, my phone and my PC

Wait, wut is going on here? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43427847)

Is some software being ported to run on Android or is Android being ported to run on some hardware?

I've lost track of all these obscure words that could be a new compiler, a hunk of hardware, or a social media meme.

And no, I refuse to RTFA

I've been whooshed! (1)

camperdave (969942) | about a year ago | (#43427857)

I read through the title, and the entire summary, and I still haven't got a clue what the story is all about. Jolla? Wayland? ODM Vendors? Yes, I could google, but come on! These are not common terms. Throw us a bone.

Re:I've been whooshed! (2)

Yebyen (59663) | about a year ago | (#43428107)

You could read the article.

I'm not gonna. Just sayin.

Re:I've been whooshed! (1)

camperdave (969942) | about a year ago | (#43428311)

I read the article. It didn't help much. Neither did the link to Jolla (mind you, I didn't sit through the two hours of intro video).

Why should I? (1)

dutchwhizzman (817898) | about a year ago | (#43430021)

The guy has a point. Unless I already know everything about what's written here (and I probably already read the news elsewhere) I wouldn't be triggered to read the full article. It just doesn't appeal to me at all since none of the words used trigger my curiousness. By putting in just a bit more information in the summary, or even just the title, the editor/submitter would have gotten many more people interested. This is bad editing slashdots' part.

How about "Intermediate driver for X ported to Android hardware. Accellerated X now possible on all Android phones" as a headline? Then something like "The makers of Sailfish, an alternative phone OS that is spun off from Nokia's Meego, has ported Wayland to the Android graphics drivers. This means that any linux distribution that wants to run on android hardware only has to include a driver for Wayland graphics, not for every phone or tablet they want to support" for the summary? That way, people that just want a snippet will actually get the message without having to go through google or clicking the link (TL;DR never gonna happen) and people that didn't already read but are interested, will have an idea what sort of link they are going to click on. Probably over 99% of slashdot readers aren't going to click on a link, of for that matter visit a website, that promises them the content is going to be something they'll never understand and could just as well be in a foreign language they don't master. Summaries like this are just that, a good reason why people don't come here anymore.

Re:Why should I? (1)

Yebyen (59663) | about a year ago | (#43451687)

I actually did go ahead and read the article, and I got the idea, so maybe I'm slashdot's (editors') target audience more than you.

I think your proposed headline states too much. What's not clear to me from reading is, does the driver running in an Android system get usurped to make a Wayland display happen, or does the Wayland display take over as part of init such that Android is no longer the running system (other than the driver needed to bootstrap Wayland on this crappy hardware)

I don't think that "on all Android phones" fits in anywhere

I also don't think it's going to make it easier to run "any Linux distribution" on Android hardware. Lack of supporting Xorg is one of the things that makes me take Android less seriously (and at the same time, it makes it a ton more usable for me, since I spend less time figuring out drivers and command line switches, and more time pressing the button on the bottom right to switch between running apps.)

Re:I've been whooshed! (4, Funny)

caseih (160668) | about a year ago | (#43428315)

Been away from Slashdot for a while? Wayland has Benn in the Linux news a fair bit recently. And Jolla has been mentioned quite a few times.

But if you really don't want to read the article then I can fill you in. Wayland is the planet where the emperor hid his cloning cylinders and other artifacts he accumulated during his reign.

Re:I've been whooshed! (1)

Patch86 (1465427) | about a year ago | (#43430467)

In brief:
Jolla = A company formed by ex-Nokia employees to carry on their Linux development after the switch to Windows Phone.
Sailfish OS = Their Linux distro for phones and tablets derived from Nokia's Meego, via a community project called Mer.
Wayland = A potential replacement for the venerable X11.
Android = Linux-based mobile OS which is very popular.
ODM = Original Design Manufacturer. A company which designs and makes a product based off of another company's reference material and branding- so Samsung is an ODM of Android phones.

Jolla have ported Wayland to work with Android GPU drivers, in order to remove an obstacle for ODM companies to make Sailfish phones- Wayland being a core part of Sailfish.

Got it?

It's even simpler than that (4, Insightful)

Wesley Felter (138342) | about a year ago | (#43427875)

The reported reasoning for making Wayland support Android GPU drivers was difficulty in ODM vendors not wishing to offer driver support for platforms aside from Android.

ODMs don't know how to write software, so you're better off not asking them to; the result would just be garbage anyway. All the GPU drivers are actually written by the GPU IP vendors (Qualcomm, Imagination, ARM, etc.) and they only provide Android drivers. You could try to pay them to write KMS/DRM drivers, but they'd probably quote you a price in the millions which minority platform wannabes like Jolla could not afford anyway.

Re:It's even simpler than that (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43428835)

Your right- except for your last comment about "minority platform wannabes". That wasn't warranted.

This is seriously cool (1)

staalmannen (1705340) | about a year ago | (#43429815)

I do hope that community distributions will pop up leveraging the work of CyanogenMod/AOSP but rather than Android on top of the custom kernel, Sailfish. I for one would love to flash my "old" Android phone (SGS+) to Sailfish (Currently on CM10). Doing that move would perhaps also break the catch 22 of users-vs-products, since (some) nerds will be happy to switch their phones from Android to "MeeGo++". The Qt on Wayland demos look sweet.... so it seems nice :) BTW: Why is Sailfish going to run on glibc? For embedded OSes I thought uClibc or musl would be a better fit.

The most interesting thing is left out (4, Interesting)

SilenceBE (1439827) | about a year ago | (#43429837)

From the authers blog

Earlier this year however, I discovered that a well-known company had taken the code - disappeared underground with it for several months, improved upon it, utilized the capability in their advertisements and demos and in the end posted the code utilizing their own source control system, detached from any state of that of the upstream project's. Even to the extent some posters around the web thought libhybris was done by that company itself.

That kind of behavior ruined the initial reason I open sourced libhybris in the first place and I was shocked to the point that I contemplated to by default not open source my hobby projects any more. It's not cool for companies to do things like this, no matter your commercial reasons. It ruins it for all of us who want to strengthen the open source ecosystem. We could have really used your improvements and patches earlier on instead of struggling with some of these issues.


http://mer-project.blogspot.fi/2013/04/wayland-utilizing-android-gpu-drivers.html [blogspot.fi]

Canonical being Canonical

Re:The most interesting thing is left out (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43430233)

"But, I will say that their behavior has improved - they are now participating in the project, discussing, upstreaming patches that are useful. And I forgive them because they've changed their ways and are participating sanely now."

You left out that bit of the blog post.
 

Re:The most interesting thing is left out (2)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year ago | (#43431971)

It doesn't sound like they actually did anything wrong. Most licenses in the wild today do not require source releases without distribution. If the developer wanted to prevent people from disappearing underground with his code, he should have put in an open repo clause. Then no one would use his software, and the problem would be solved.

Too bad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43430323)

At the end of the day it's still wayland.

We really need some competent people working on graphics, soonish. The Xorg bunch just aren't cutting it.

Let's try to explain the technology (5, Informative)

Bostik (92589) | about a year ago | (#43430347)

Phoronix article is quite low on information, and even the original post at http://mer-project.blogspot.fi/2013/04/wayland-utilizing-android-gpu-drivers.html assumes some technical knowledge of graphics stack. The basic idea is actually pretty simple. I'll try to break it down.

  1. The SoC vendors are willing to target only Android
  2. Android GPU drivers are built against Bionic libc
  3. The GPU drivers talk to hardware, and expose themselves via EGL and GLESv2
  4. EGL is basically a common API for GPU memory management, buffer (region of memory used for rendering) allocation and display updates
  5. GLESv2 stands in for the functionality we commonly associate with OpenGL
  6. GPU drivers form a combination of EGL and GLESv2 libraries, each GPU vendor providing their own

This is where libhybris comes into play. The GPU driver libraries don't work without Bionic libc - so libhybris, while running on top of regular linux (and thus [e]glibc), keeps a private Bionic libc open for the GPU drivers' use, and redirects all the EGL/GLESv2 calls to the GPU driver libraries. These libraries run in their own Bionic universe, and tell the actual display hardware what to do.

The new part about Wayland support is just a logical extension of the same behaviour. Wayland already depends on EGL for buffer management, so "all" it really needs is a native display handler. Now as it happens, the native Android display structure can be mapped to the Wayland-EGL display structure. It's not trivial, but it's certainly doable. Thanks to libhybris, the Wayland libraries see a correct native display type and operate on that, while the Android GPU libraries see their respective native display type and thus can drive the hardware as ever before. After all, it's still the SAME hardware regardless of what operating system we may be running. Registers are registers and memory is still memory. From the GPU drivers' point of view nothing has changed.

So what has happened? In addition to just redirecting graphics stack calls to Android drivers, we are now also translating the display subsystem between two somewhat different systems.

If all of the above sounds eerily familiar, you are correct. In networking this kind of design is called a proxy, or if we're talking about link layer, it would be a multi-protocol label switch. Logically there's not much difference.

Re:Let's try to explain the technology (1)

Bert64 (520050) | about a year ago | (#43430837)

So what performance impact does all this have?

Re:Let's try to explain the technology (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43430893)

From "nothing works" to "it woks"... someday in somewhere, someone will run some benchmarks to compare. Until the day, we don't know.

Re:Let's try to explain the technology (1)

Bostik (92589) | about a year ago | (#43431047)

That is a good question.

My answer hovers between two choices, "not a lot" and "no idea". The reason for this is that the translation code should be generally rather straightforward. There is a bigger cost for buffer allocation and destruction, and a smaller cost with frame update.

Each time a buffer is created or destroyed, libhybris will need to do some internal bookkeeping to match the Wayland buffers with Android buffers. Some of the under-the-hood memory allocations may be more expensive than others, so I can't say where the bottlenecks will be. For frame updates, there should be little more than simply copying and re-associating geometry values and memory handles (basically integers), since the actual buffer holding the visual content is not touched.

At least that's how I understand it. I trust we'll get benchmarks eventually.

Re:Let's try to explain the technology (1)

OdinOdin_ (266277) | about a year ago | (#43447523)

I looked over the libc API calls used by graphics drivers once and it wasn't anything special. Maybe less than 25 symbols.

The point of this claim is that there is probably no need for a bionic reimplementation (bugs and all) all that needs to happen it struct layout conversion across the APIs calls. I would guess only 5 or less API calls are affected the rest follow same or similar ABI constructs for both bionic and glibc.

The overhead, if there are no bugs/quirks to manages then next to nothing, you are copying one data layout to another data layout in those calls that changes. Since the values are all probably in the CPU cache (due to cache lines being recently references/zeros/accessed) to cost is not worth being concerned about. This is only the libc calls like to open files and read them.

The Open GL APIs themselves could follow the exact same ABI.

Maybe I should get back to that porting Android to Raspberry Pi (this is the reverse situation, where drivers exist linked to glibc as part of debian raspian but require an ABI and API that conforms to Android). Raspberry Pi don't really want their fine device being labeled Android as it may detract from the educational focus of the device and also the performance may not be as good as an Android user expects.

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