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FBI Considers CALEA II: Mandatory Wiretapping On Every Device

timothy posted about a year and a half ago | from the putting-it-gently dept.

Privacy 318

Techmeology writes "In response to declining utility of CALEA mandated wiretapping backdoors due to more widespread use of cryptography, the FBI is considering a revamped version that would mandate wiretapping facilities in end users' computers and software. Critics have argued that this would be bad for security (PDF), as such systems must be more complex and thus harder to secure. CALEA has also enabled criminals to wiretap conversations by hacking the infrastructure used by the authorities. I wonder how this could ever be implemented in FOSS."

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Time to clean house... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761811)

Given how well the intelligence agencies have 'protected' us these last two decades...

Isn't it time to get rid of these assholes? Or at least save some money on our fake no help agencies?

You could cut half of the people at the FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, FEMA, TSA, DOD, And several others i can't think of...

And we wouldn't notice any difference at all. None..

Re:Time to clean house... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762025)

I suggest merging & optimizing the letters used for agencies. All those agencies could be covered with just the letters A.S.S.H.A.T.S.

Re:Time to clean house... (5, Funny)

colinrichardday (768814) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762249)

American Security State/Homeland Anti-Terrorists System?

Sheesh (5, Insightful)

trifish (826353) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761823)

This is where a true police state begins. An ear and eye in every device. Wake up before it's too late.

Never allow laziness of police forces to erode your civil liberties and freedoms.

Re:Sheesh (4, Insightful)

durrr (1316311) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761841)

But what about your off-device life? Clearly, a camera mounted in your forehead and bedroom is needed too.

Re:Sheesh (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761945)

Google Glass anyone?

Re:Sheesh (4, Insightful)

oPless (63249) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761955)

Solved. Google Glass, and Microsoft Kinect, and that camera in your laptop (but I guess you have some control over that for now)

Re:Sheesh (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762545)

Solved. Google Glass, and Microsoft Kinect, and that camera in your laptop (but I guess you have some control over that for now)

A lot of televisions have cameras as well:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/03/21/2117236/new-samsung-tv-watches-you-watching-it
http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/12/04/18/0312206/spoiler-alert-your-tv-will-be-hacked

Re:Sheesh (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761975)

This is where a police state ends. The begin is far behind us.

Re:Sheesh (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762035)

This is where a police state ends. The begin is far behind us.

No, you have no idea what a police state really is. Ask the East Germans for that.
Mandatory wiretapping in consumer devices (with the outlawing of FOSS because it simply wouldn't be able to comply) is where the State of Law ends, and the police state begins.
And incidentally democracy dies definitively once and for all.

Re:Sheesh (2, Funny)

Kwyj1b0 (2757125) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762663)

And incidentally democracy dies definitively once and for all.

There are plenty of democracies in the world. I doubt a bunch of power-hungry lunatics can destroy a system that has been tried repeatedly for more than 2000 years.

Re:Sheesh (3, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762005)

CALEA II: Brought to you by Intel and AMD Trusted Computing Platforms.
Coming soon to an ARM chip near you.

Re:Sheesh (5, Interesting)

rotovator (837725) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762335)

The police state began some time ago. It began, for example, when hollywood started to make you americans, belive you lived in the land of the freedom, while the government was driving the nation in the opposite direction. A lie told a thounsand times becomes a truth. And your truth is (and you want it to be) "we live in a free country", but that is "YOUR" truth, not the truth.

We, europeans see you like living in a police state, much like the movies show about nazi germany, soviet russia, etc. You live in the type of country your army and your parents once fought (Hitler Germany). But The European government is going in the same direction and I'd like you to stand up against your tyranny, because I still see the american people as brave and having a sense of fight for freedom, much more than we europeans. So I expect the real spirit of your founding memebers make a comeback someday but only the american people can bring it. 15 years ago, I met a computer researcher who was giving a conference at my university. He took out his wireless mouse to connect it to the laptop, and suddenly he realized he wasn't in his country, he quickly switched it off and asked for permission or ifnormation because he didn't want to break any law regarding radiofrecuency emissions due to his mouse being from other country. During some seconds I felt he was worried about the time he had had it switched on. While I admire the eduated behaviour of americans, I really got sad to see how afraid of the system you can go at any simple, naive action of your daily life.

Life in America is much worse nowadays than most of the rest of the world. But your TV keeps you entertained and narcotized, and like muslims do when worshiping their god contiuously not to be misstaken by an infidel by the rest of the belivers, you americans worship your country not to be taken by a antiamerican-terrorist-comunist-anarchist- etc. The same lybia you bombed to the grounds to "liberate from tyranny" had on average a better living standar than your beloved america (this sounds strange, I know, but have you ever been to libya? or is it just that you've been TVBRainwashed ?) But 99% of americans were efectively driven to think they were in the free rich world, and Lybia was in the poor tyrannized world. Don't you ask yourselves how can the CIA be helping alquaeda en Siria while the FBI is considering wiretapping every device in America? Is your governmetn fighting the terrorism to protect you? Or is it fighting you to protect them?

Re:Sheesh (4, Informative)

heypete (60671) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762441)

Good points, though I felt it necessary to comment on the wireless mouse issue: RF-related laws do differ from country to country and there can be serious consequences (not just legal consequences) to breaking them.

While there's wide international agreement on certain bands, like the 2.4GHz ISM band, not everything is so unified. I'm an American living in Switzerland. One of my fellow Americans here in Switzerland had brought a Skype-capable cordless phone from the US and had used it for a few weeks. Eventually, some Swiss government officials with direction-finding equipment showed up at his house and requested entrance to his home. He allowed them in and they homed in on the phone. It turns out the frequencies used in the US for certain types of cordless phones are used, in Switzerland, by the Swiss military and his phone was causing interference. They gave him a ticket saying that there was no penalty this time, but if he continued to use the phone he would be fined 10,000 Swiss francs (about $10,000 USD/8,000 Euro).

While the use of a wireless mouse isn't likely to cause enough interference to bother anyone, it's still a good thing to check first to ensure it is appropriate to use.

Re:Sheesh (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762453)

Yes we really need conspiracy theorists to protect our democracies. Go live in one of those dictatorships you love so much.

Re:Sheesh (2)

swalve (1980968) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762705)

The mouse thing wasn't fear, it was respect for the laws and customs of a foreign land, and courtesy. That mouse works fine in the US, but how was he supposed to know if that frequency wasn't being used by something important?

Americans' version of freedom is something like "if I'm not obviously breaking a law, leave me alone." And for the vast majority of people, that's true.

Re:Sheesh (5, Insightful)

swalve (1980968) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762535)

That's just it. You can't blame a dog for licking you. Law enforcement wants every tool it can have to do its job. They aren't necessarily bad or jack booted thugs, just trying to do what they do. If I was a signals intelligence person, of course I'd want to be able to tap ALL the phone lines. I'd only want to do it legally, but that wouldn't stop me from demanding the option was there. And I'm sure law enforcement/intelligence, more or less, wants to do the right thing. Unfortunately, giving power to the government when you trust it means they have that power when you don't trust it.

I mean, look at this stupid IRS scandal. All the people screaming about the abuses of power are very closely intersected with the people who wanted ACORN investigated. If we allow or demand that the IRS investigate the entities we don't like, that means they have the power to investigate whoever they want, depending on the political winds.

The trouble is in Congress for their lack of oversight and forethought. Compromise is supposed to more or less cancel out partisan lunacy, but instead they just act like children and "Casablanca" inspectors. Shocked, they are, that abuse is going on.

Re:Sheesh (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762607)

You can't blame a dog for licking you. Law enforcement wants every tool it can have to do its job. They aren't necessarily bad or jack booted thugs, just trying to do what they do.

I expect humans to be a fair bit more intelligent than dogs. I expect humans to care about things such as rights and privacy.

It appears that my expectations are unrealistic in this day and age.

Re:Sheesh (0)

fuzznutz (789413) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762699)

ACORN should have been investigated; as should the IRS. You judge a group not by the "best" good they do, but by the "worst" bad they do. And if some of the allegations about the IRS that I have read are true, someone should go to jail. To wield that kind of governmental power and arbitrarily train it on groups you do not like is unconscionable. And it's starting to look like the AP phone records grab is the same kind of crap.

I voted for Obama and the shit coming from his "administration" is enough to make ME want to join the Tea Party.

FBI boogeyman (1)

For a Free Internet (1594621) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761827)

Try and extract meaning from this Slashdort post, I dare you!

Once upon the brans it froloked og pilogonof funky jamjam pills. To you, I salort!

Attention Slashdort: It has come to my atention that recently, I died.

In case any of you believe in that religious hooey, I can categorically confirm that there is no afterlife, so give up already!

Re:FBI boogeyman (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762191)

Once upon the brans it froloked og pilogonof funky jamjam pills. To you, I salort!

Wants pawn term, dare worsted ladle gull hoe lift wetter murder inner ladle cordage...

FOSS (2)

TheSHAD0W (258774) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761833)

I wonder how this could ever be implemented in FOSS.

The same way anything is implemented in FOSS. It'll be written into the source. Lots of people will modify the code to disable the backdoors. People will post versions of the software with the backdoors missing, many of which actually still have them or have different backdoors installed. Governments may lead an automated search for software without the backdoors, or may simply ignore it uniless they have a reason to target the individual using it.

In other words, what a fucking mess.

Re:FOSS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761947)

But what happens, if it's implemented in Hardware?

Re:FOSS (4, Insightful)

gweihir (88907) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762051)

Easy solution: Lifetime imprisonment for anybody that disables this. And the death penalty for anybody that instructs others how to disable it. After all, these people are dangerous privacy-terrorists that want to keep things from the government!

I am quite serious. The idea at all is the last stage of a surveillance state, where nobody gets any privacy, the government is the final arbiter of what behavior is acceptable and what is not, and though-crime becomes real. They can then threaten, remove and kill anybody they do not like at their leisure. Low-tech versions of this have existed before, namely in the 3rd Reich and in Stalinism. Say something the authorities do not like? Go to the KZ or Gulag. Quite a neat solution to a population that may have its own ideas on how it wants to be ruled.

Re:FOSS (4, Informative)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762237)

Thre is already a name for it - totalitarianism, the involvement of the state in all aspects of life.

FBI? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761861)

Why is the FBI considering anything? Isn't something like this in the realm of the elected politician?

Re:FBI? (3, Insightful)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762215)

No, it's in the realm of those who launder their dirty money through campaign 'contributions'. All policy originates from them.

Re:FBI? (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762601)

Why is the FBI considering anything? Isn't something like this in the realm of the elected politician?

they're considering it because they view the possibility to eavesdrop anyone they want as their lawful right that they already have. the problem is that they were given that right long ago... and if they have that right, then logically they view that they should have that right forever - damn the consequences.

I'm In Favor Of This Actually (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761871)

We live in a world today that has stronger cryptographic tools that law enforcement and government authorities can break. I don't think this is a good thing where drug dealers, terrorists, pedophile and assorted evildoers can commit their nefarious activities without impunity.

I think having these wiretap backdoors is a worth the tradeoff of my liberty in favor of a better and safer world. This solution is better than the current no solution. Just my honest opinion.

Re: I'm In Favor Of This Actually (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761893)

Wow, you're quite the coward.

Re: I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

scarboni888 (1122993) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762031)

Or quite the troll.

Re: I'm In Favor Of This Actually (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762093)

I like how you think an opinion that you don't agree with is a troll. You must be quite the debater.

Re: I'm In Favor Of This Actually (1)

cheekyjohnson (1873388) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762669)

I think he's just a bit too optimistic. Surely no one is idiotic and naive enough to trust the government with so much power? Sadly, such people do exist.

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

interval1066 (668936) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761951)

I think having these wiretap backdoors is a worth the tradeoff of my liberty in favor of a better and safer world.

And Thomas Jefferson continues to spin aces in his grave.

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

Skapare (16644) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761969)

And what about the scammers that will be using this back door to control you phone and run up your bills. Is this the cost you are willing to pay, literally? How about just having the evildoers put in jail with less strict requirements on what the evidence needs to be ... like maybe catching them in the act.

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

CFBMoo1 (157453) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762043)

Nice back door on your device there, shame if someone put something on there that would incriminate you for something you didn't do. Oh but you feel safer right?

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

AHuxley (892839) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762057)

The problem is once you start mapping drug dealers, terrorists, pedophile and assorted evildoers some strange stuff starts happening.
The real evil people go dark understanding they have to change methods quickly, tipped of by tame experts and corrupt officers.
Support for 'freedom fighters' by the CIA becomes tricky.
Local courts are flooded with telco intercept cases and slowly most people of interest work out a phone, VoIP, computer, nav system is not so healthy to have around.
Thats why the GCHQ and NSA hate press like this. Now the FBI sees good PR, fame, new budgets and all the new hardware to roll out.
Easy cases at first with tracking, recoding via a remote turned on phone, key loggers in any consumer OS.

Moderation Abuse (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762061)

Why is the parent comment rated -1? You might not agree with it but that is not a valid reason for moderating it down. It is on topic opinion, not flamebait or troll.

This is censorship, plain and simple. I see how how moderation is used to enforce the groupthink here. Shame, for shame.

Re:Moderation Abuse (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762393)

I'd say you must be new here, but you recognize the problem. Hell step into any pro-Google story, find a comment that is critical of Google, and find it modded down as "Redundant". WTF? I've called it the Slashdot echo chamber.

Re:Moderation Abuse (2)

colinrichardday (768814) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762457)

It's modded troll because Slashdot doesn't have a Stasi/KGB mod.

Re:Moderation Abuse (2)

dmbasso (1052166) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762515)

And that's what you get when the technology allows it. But not in the case of the backdoors. No, the government would never abuse its powers...

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2, Insightful)

gweihir (88907) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762071)

Here is news for you: "evildoers" will basically not be affected, as they will just work around these devices. It is ordinary citizens that are the target, as they do not have this opportunity. "Evildoers" will just experience a slight increase in the effort needed to do business. ON the other hand, this will create a nice set of possibilities to extort said normal citizens (sheep as yourself).

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762317)

Here is more news for you: you have just been trolled. You are the one who is the sheep, you little bitch. I just made you look like an utter and complete fool, boy. I win 2-0. Checkmate.

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

qbast (1265706) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762127)

As non-American I am also very much in favour - this should be huge boost for IT sector everywhere outside US.

Re: I'm In Favor Of This Actually (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762351)

That is a reprehensible idea. Rooting for the subjugation of others for.personal gain. Disgusting.

Re: I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

silviuc (676999) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762519)

It is disgusting. Yes indeed, however the US of A have been doing it to other nations for quite a while. Karma...

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762195)

I don't think this is a good thing where drug dealers, terrorists, pedophile and
assorted evildoers can commit their nefarious activities without impunity.

Wow! You probably don't know this, but depending on which U.S state you're in, depending on how
you express your love to your legally married wife/husband, you could be engaging in a felony.
Yupper, many of those "laws" of behaviour are still on the books and though not currently enforced,
you could be in serious do-do if you're caught.

Allowing something like that on a device is just plain stupid.

CAPTCHA = 'reform', it getting close to that time!

terrorists, drug dealers, pedophiles.. (3, Funny)

decora (1710862) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762225)

you mean the CIA and the Catholic Church?

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762323)

I think having these wiretap backdoors is a worth the tradeoff of my liberty in favor of a better and safer world

I think that most of us would also gladly trade your liberty for a better and safer world, since that would kill two birds with one stome. :-)

Re:I'm In Favor Of This Actually (2)

colinrichardday (768814) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762437)

I don't think this is a good thing where drug dealers, terrorists, pedophile and assorted evildoers can commit their nefarious activities without impunity.

Would you prefer that they commit their nefarious activities with impunity?

Astoundingly bad idea (2)

Shavano (2541114) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761877)

We had this argument years ago when they were talking about putting encryption engines in everybody's phones, but they'd have back door keys and NOBODY WANTED ONE. They still won't. All this will do if passed is prevent anybody from buying a new phone until they have a method in hand to turn off or change the back-door codes so nobody can hack them.

Re:Astoundingly bad idea (4, Interesting)

mlts (1038732) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762631)

I remember this with the Clipper Chip, and FBI Director Freeh. It is understandable that they want this -- makes their job a lot easier, and makes a lot more material to sift through.

However, there were the same issues with this wiretap stuff as with the Clipper Chip:

1: Bad guys getting access to the backdoor, just like back then, bad guys getting access to the LEAF (law enforcement access field, part of the key escrow mechanism.) When (not if) this happens, every single endpoint is wide open, and this becomes a national security issue when companies start getting hacked wholesale and there is nothing they can do except power off and unplug.

2: Abuse. Of course, this would allow anyone with access to this a lot of material they can scoop up, and sell.

3: There would be -billions- spent by rogue nations, criminal organizations, and others to get at those master keys. When the money is at stake, it will turn into a game of finding out what people are even close to the master keys, and kidnapping their family. The billions spent on compromising an update repository in order to get backdoored programs into the target would reward the rogues with trillions.

Securing the master keys is one thing. Keeping them secure while in use for massive eavesdropping and protecting them from leaks is a very difficult task. Someone in the chain can be compromised eventually, which leads us to point #1.

Plus, we already have a shitload of ways that an endpoint can be compromised. A lot of software updaters send a unique computer ID. It doesn't take much to have a certain ID get a slightly modified signed update while everyone else gets something else.

What? (5, Insightful)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761881)

Why do critics need to argue anything? A simple no, get lost, should suffice. You don't need reasons to refuse law enforcement access to your communications, they need reasons to access them in the first place.

Re:What? (1)

interval1066 (668936) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761965)

Right. That's why we have warrants. This move to streamline law enforcement into all our lives is the truly scary part.

Re:What? (1)

gweihir (88907) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762075)

Ahem, that is what they want to change?

Re:What? (1)

Jesus_666 (702802) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762357)

The reason is that they are law enforcement agencies and you can't prove that you aren't a terrorist. Since anti-terror efforts supersede conventional law up to and including the constitution that means they have a perfect argument and you are suspicious for disagreeing.

Re:What? (3, Insightful)

Chris Mattern (191822) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762401)

You don't understand. They aren't going to ask you. They're going to ask the people who make your communication devices. If they get their way, every one who makes phones, computer, and so on will include backdoors for law enforcement because they are required to. And they will not be removable by the user.

Re:What? (1)

silviuc (676999) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762583)

  • Here's a few:
  • Think of the children!
  • Pressure cooker bombers
  • 9/11
  • other Boogie Men

All they need is to scare the people into believing them and taking their side.

If they do this however, I'm quite sure all the big tech companies will set shop anywhere else. They are already "international" and manufacturing mostly in Asia. They will still sell modified tech to the gvt. but anyone else won't get anything because it will not comply with the law. That is a scary scenario indeed. Actually, I would say that it's exactly because of those companies and their lobbying that such a law will fail hard.

Re:What? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762593)

The IRS doesn't need warrents. Posting as AC for obvious reasons...

No possible way this goes anywhere (2)

kcornia (152859) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761883)

This is such a wildly inappropriate idea that if it gets any legs at all the reasonable powers that be will jump on it and squash it good.

I cannot allow myself to believe we as a country are willing to seriously consider implementation of anything like this.

Re:No possible way this goes anywhere (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762121)

This is such a wildly inappropriate idea that if it gets any legs at all the reasonable powers that be will jump on it and squash it good.

I cannot allow myself to believe we as a country are willing to seriously consider implementation of anything like this.

That's the exact thing I said with all of the illegal wiretapping and privacy eroding laws they've been passing. The fact that someone thinks it's a good idea is scary enough.

Re:No possible way this goes anywhere (1)

fnj (64210) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762261)

Funny, I was never at any point in my life tempted to say that about any of the erosions of my guaranteed rights. Maybe because I have never been a naive fool.

Re:No possible way this goes anywhere (1)

Microlith (54737) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762155)

Nonsense.

Apple and Microsoft will happily comply. After all, they've already take away the end-user's control of their mobile devices.

Re:No possible way this goes anywhere (1)

dead_user (1989356) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762653)

Nonsense.

Apple and Microsoft will happily comply. After all, they've already take away the end-user's control of their mobile devices.

After all, they've already attempted to take away the end-user's control of their mobile devices.

sci fi laws to not mean reality (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761903)

it is literally impossible to implement, the FBI is losing its war against the worlds populations which it considers are terrorist suspects, you, me, and averyone else in the whole planet, let them cry all they want, we all know they will never achieve it but for those of you located in the land of your laws, harras or fire your politicians out of those jobs and put new ones that know what they are doing, or else, become slaves in the new era of the nazi state modern usa, where you need you papers with you to make sure you are not deported to another country that you have never been to

As long as it is open source (2)

Skapare (16644) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761919)

Otherwise I have to oppose the idea entirely.

Re:As long as it is open source (2)

wbr1 (2538558) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761997)

Otherwise I have to oppose the idea entirely.

You are willing to allow it if it is open source? You are willing to trade freedom and privacy for FOSS?
May I ask why? If it is because you have the technical know-how to remove or disable it if the source is available that is a self-centered and elitist view.
What about people who do not have this ability? In this view the techno-crati and the rich and powerful have nothing to fear as they can sidestep the loss of freedom.
The plebes however still get stepped on, more and more. This is the antithesis of what FOSS should be about. It is about enabling freedom and openness, not sociopathy.

Re:As long as it is open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762099)

Otherwise I have to oppose the idea entirely.

You are willing to allow it if it is open source? You are willing to trade freedom and privacy for FOSS?

no. If it's open then I can go mangle the wiretapping components and reclaim my freedom and privacy.

Re:As long as it is open source (2)

WindBourne (631190) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762101)

Because with OSS, you can remove it.

Re:As long as it is open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762125)

I can remove it perfectly fine if it's closed source. If it's open source, I can give it also to people who do not have this ability. Asking for it to be open source is exactly the opposite of self-centered.
But it will never be open-source: if everyone could choose a version without this feature, it would be voluntary instead of mandatory.

Re:As long as it is open source (1)

Skapare (16644) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762157)

Reread what I said very clearly. Apply logic. I never said I would accept it as open source. I only said that if it is not open source, I would oppose it.

If it turns out to be open source, I have the confidence that it would end up opposing itself by exposing its own absurdity directly. It is not a matter of whether I can disable it, or just not include it. It's not about the people without the ability to do this. What will become clear and obvious is that the evildoers the LEAs want to target will be able to disable it, or just not include it.

Actually, this *IS* what open source is about ... to, among other things, expose absurdities. Open source is about knowing what's inside, and having control. That opposes this idea. You and I both know they will never actually make this open source. You and I and they all know that making it open source just makes it so clearly absurd.

Now reread my post once more and you should see by logic that I am saying I am fully opposed.

Re:As long as it is open source (1)

wbr1 (2538558) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762449)

Your original comment was written with the implicit indication that you would accept is, at least in theory if open source.
Regardless, I still disagree, if it is mandated, it does not matter if the source is open. It has the force of law, and if you are found to be circumventing, your freedom can be just as curtailed as by using it and being found to be doing something illegal or impolitic.

Re:As long as it is open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762325)

Your tongue is obviously in your cheek.

That said, as alarming and disturbing as this contemplated atrocity is, it is really less about speech or privacy than about beer. It's about reining in the web and conglomerating wealth into the hands of Wall Street's favored few. Billy Boy, Apple, the TwitFace plex, an so on. Google could go either way on this-they make a lot of their money servicing small vendors and publishers, but I believe they will fall into line at some point. Inevitable given the ultimately consumerist model of Internet commerce, but apparently not inevitable enough for the FBI's handlers.

So, fibbies, if I say fuck you, and the horse you rode in on, please don't take it personal. Kindly wake the fuck up, though, please.

It's an arms race (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43761929)

If this were implemented it would just encourage people to adopt higher-level protocols, encryption is one but also speaking in coded messages ("The weather is nice in the Black Sea this time of year, Alexei") and replayed/automated versions of the same.

What the US gets we all get (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about a year and a half ago | (#43761961)

If this passes, do people think the US will get special "US chipped" networked devices made in China and then cheaper units for the rest of the world?
The US will lobby the world to ensue a level export market for its expensive compliant hardware.

Re:What the US gets we all get (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762015)

Calm down dude, its not even before congress and likely would not pass. Stop hyperventilating.

Re:What the US gets we all get (1)

dotHectate (975458) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762053)

It's even further a problem for the import/export market than just sourcing. Other countries will demand unique products to ensure that their big brother friend the USA can't spy on them freely - while probably requesting permission to do just that as well to their own people. Now you have a breakdown where markets are fractured and nobody will want the "USA-compliant model", costs rise and thus so do prices, and in the end no problems get solved because all the truly dangerous ones are so paranoid anyway that they're not going to trust our current options much less something that they know is rigged.

What problem with FOSS? (1)

gnasher719 (869701) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762003)

What problem do you see with open source software? If there is a legal requirement that software behaves in certain ways, then that is independent of whether it is open source or not. The only difference is that with open source, you might be able to veryify that the mandated behaviour is there.

Of course, open source software that behaves according to some law can be modified by anyone with the source code and the necessary expertise to break that law. If creating such software is illegal, then the person doing it would do something illegal. But that has nothing to do really with open source.

Re:What problem with FOSS? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762089)

Fuck your laws. Fuck you GOD DAMNED GLOBAL RELIGION.
You need to be destroyed somehow.

Re:What problem with FOSS? (2)

ACluk90 (2618091) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762161)

No, but I guess any development team with non-US members will have a strong problem with that. Or to put it more simply: how should this whole thing even be enforced? Non-US developers do not have to comply with US law and will not contribute to this surveillance - the only option is to make using such software illegal in the US (something else that cannot really be enforced). Additionally, this will push people away from software written in the US as it would violate the requirements of any company not willing to expose their entire internal information to the US economic espionage.

Re:What problem with FOSS? (1)

Skapare (16644) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762199)

With the open source, some people will "mess" with the system. They will have to sift out all the "noise". Of course they do fully understand this. So it will never be an open system. It might be a chip, but that will be so easily defeated with encrypted apps that don't use the traditional dialed number phone network.

there are 190+ countries (1)

decora (1710862) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762205)

and only one of them is under the jurisdiction of the FBI.

meanwhiel, most FOSS is developed cross border by people in various locations

What could POSSIBLY go wrong?!?! (4, Interesting)

Smerta (1855348) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762019)

I'm really saddened and angered by the continuous erosion of our civil liberties. I've seen this decline for a while 9/11, but it keeps getting worse & worse. And sadly, it really seems to be independent of the party in power. Total government overreach.

Re:What could POSSIBLY go wrong?!?! (5, Insightful)

Skapare (16644) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762211)

The terrorists have already won.

FOSS? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762039)

"I wonder how this could ever be implemented in FOSS"
How many phones have a completely FOSS operating system????

Re:FOSS? (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762131)

How many phones have a completely FOSS operating system????

None

Re:FOSS? (1)

Skapare (16644) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762243)

Technically true. But there is at least one that is open enough that end-to-end network apps cannot be spied on beyond the IP header needed to deliver its traffic somewhere. Encrypted talk apps already exist. These are end points the proposal would also "require" be backdoored (not just the blob that runs the "telephone" part). These are the apps the evildoers WILL use (after a few of them do get caught).

bastards (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762063)

how exactly would they be able to get that data off a device they have bugged? surely any IT expert would see traffic going to a certain direction and block the hell out of it?! Not a very smart idea. They must think we are all idiots. I think any proposal to install bugging software into devices is yet another weak effort from the fascists who are slowly losing their grip on power. weak.

Too Late (1)

WindBourne (631190) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762091)

Microsoft, Yahoo, and Apple ALREADY have open doors for FBI. About the only clean system will be the OSS, and even then, it is NOT guaranteed unless you have the OSS bios.

implemented in FOSS?? Ask the W3C (1)

bussdriver (620565) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762629)

"I wonder how this could ever be implemented in FOSS"

Ask the W3C how they are going to pull of DRM in FOSS. Different problems but they have a lot of issues in common and neither will solve enough of them.

this can never happen (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762175)

even if it passes, encryption+obfuscation without backdoors will always exist

DoJ is either stupid ... (1)

PPH (736903) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762187)

... or has an endless supply of arrogance. They are about to get their ass handed to them for acquiring AP reporters' phone records without justification. And so they go to work on more powerful wiretapping tools.

They will see no fallout from the AP wiretapping (5, Interesting)

Marrow (195242) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762329)

The most you can hope for is a civil suit. The process and any penalties will be paid by tax dollars to the reporters.
Its over. The entire justification for when we STOLE the states from the king of England was that we were going to live system where the people govern themselves.
But thats over now:
1. The ratio of citizen to congress critter has risen steadily so that they can walk or run away from their constituents
2. The function of the Senate has drastically changed and more decisions are made there, further eroding the power of popular vote. 2 per state/6yr terms
3. The things we used to laugh at the Russian people for: Corrupt press, Corrupt travel restrictions, Reading Mail, Wiretapping, corrupt law enforcement are all S.O.P for our government now.
4. We used to laugh at the Russians for electing their leaders. Both candidates came from the same party and there was no real choice. Which is what we have here now.
5., We used to laugh at the Russians for infiltrating and subverting democracy groups. Thats what we do here now.
6. We used to laugh at the fact that no one there "owned" anything. With the value of everything here based on an arbitrary currency, it essentially the same thing.
7 There is a defacto get-out-of jail free card for every president in office or after term.

I have worked with the people who "watch over us". They are relentlessly dishonest and always convinced they are right. And they have only one lens to view anything: us vs them. And once you are 'them", they have no morality at all.

Try to enjoy your life. Try not to have kids.

eat a bag of dicks (3, Informative)

decora (1710862) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762193)

dear FBI,

a certain portion of your managament are stupid douchebags.

while there are agents risking their lives to stop criminals, you are sitting around jerking off on a whiteboard about pie in the sky bullshit that nobody with two nickels worth of brains would find useful or even interesting

fuck you, fuck your mother, and fuck everything you stand for.

Re:eat a bag of dicks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762567)

Your stupid 'internet activism' isn't going to change a thing.

Cue a boom in people with brains and money leaving (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#43762235)

The US is fast becoming a good place to be from.

As in : "I used to live there".

as if (1)

rccorkum (1752644) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762245)

they will pry my info out of my cold dead slackware box and my firewall. Rosta Ruck. have atter. please. this is unreal

Wonder if one realizes this... (0)

houbou (1097327) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762419)

But all internet traffic is more than likely already monitered and filtered for keywords and word associations. All the FBI is really asking is basically to make it all very legal and a bit more convenient.
Technically, unless you are doing something illegal, it wouldn't matter at this point if your software apps were reporting your activities.

I got exactly two words for you on this subject: (1)

kheldan (1460303) | about a year and a half ago | (#43762683)

..mandate wiretapping facilities in end users' computers and software

And "FUCK YOU" are those two words. I'd also like to add "Eat shit and die", and furthermore "Die in a fire". This shit has got to stop, now!

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