Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

O'Reilly Sez Ask Craig Mundie

Hemos posted more than 13 years ago | from the talking-with-the-man dept.

Microsoft 201

There's a news article up at O'Reilly that hypes their upcoming Open Source Convention and also sets up a forum to submit questions to potentially be asked to Mundie when he gives a keynote at the convention. Should be an interesting, perhaps vitriol-filled morning there.

cancel ×

201 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Re:So... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#165635)

Answer 1.
.Net is like smoking lots of pot while snorting Classic coke from a Playboy model's clitoris while mainlining to the mainframe while being sucked off by everyone you ever looked at while listening to all of the Velvet Underground, Bill Hicks, Kraftwerk, KLF, Radiohead & Yello jamming while completing the original Jet Set Willy & Jet Set Radio while walking in space while knowing everything that ever happened or will happen simultaneously while playing Civ, but with a real planet. In your toilet. Twice.

Answer 2.
To draw an analogy,
Open Source is like this - %
Free Software is like this - ^
Linux is like this - *
GPL is like this - ! [goatse.cx]
Hope that clears it up.

Answer 3.
You're thinking of Craig Shergold. Or Clint Eastwood. Or maybe Clint Mansell. Or Colin Powell. Or maybe the man page for Tom Cruise. Or Captain Hemos. Or Skullkid. Or Shueboy. Or Cyborg Monkee. Or Bojay. Or Spork. Or Bismallah. Or the registry entry for HKEY\Longpig.
Choose Liff.

dumbass (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#165636)


Why are you asking here?

Serious Question for Mundie (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#165637)

Do you get sick of listening to linux bitches raking you over the coals when they themselves can't seem to run a lemonade stand profitably?

Do you get pissed off at the fact that these very same linux bitches who never let up actually use Microsoft products most of the time and actually use IE to pen half of their anti-MS rants?

Re:Question: what about the BSD License (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#165639)

MS has already used BSD software. Most of the network command line utilities and much of the internal networking is based on BSD.

Several people have run strings on the ftp command and it reveals the BSD copyright. You should work that into your question since it points out that MS has benefitd from OSS.

Why give Mundie a forum to troll on? (2)

Andy Tai (1884) | more than 13 years ago | (#165644)

What is O'Reilly thinking? Why should people attending an Open Source conference spend time listen to Microsoft? Get Open Source developers to be educated by Microsoft, or the other way around?

Everything that needs to be said has been said. Can there be anything new from Microsoft?

O'Reilly may as well get Bill Gates in there to re-issue his Open Letter to Hobbyists, to the Open Source hobbyists.

Re:Would you calculate MS's profits using int (2)

sheldon (2322) | more than 13 years ago | (#165646)

Under the .Net CLR, int is 32-bit and long is 64-bit.

Just might want to keep that in mind. :)

Re:embrace & extend - open source (2)

SteveX (5640) | more than 13 years ago | (#165653)

Have you ever looked at their developer materials? They are very good at documenting and encouraging you to use their extensions. Asking him if they plan to open up their proprietary extensions is kind of silly.

Re:Questions (2)

SteveX (5640) | more than 13 years ago | (#165654)

You don't need to have the original CD around to apply service packs, etc. Copy the source CD to your hard drive and install from that, or update the registry afterwards to point to wherever you've put the original files.

Wow, Smart move by Tim (1)

kavi_3 (5872) | more than 13 years ago | (#165655)

This will help boost attendence to that convention.

Re:I got a couple questions for him... (1)

itp (6424) | more than 13 years ago | (#165656)

This is funny?

Whatever.

--
Ian Peters

Re:Craig Mundie (1)

PD (9577) | more than 13 years ago | (#165658)

round covers use a minimum of steel

Re:Would you calculate MS's profits using int (1)

MaxwellsSilverHammer (10318) | more than 13 years ago | (#165659)

No, no. That doesn't go with existing 'standard' convention. You need something like 'MyInt' or 'MSintOLE-2.013'.

Re:Irony? (1)

Taos (12343) | more than 13 years ago | (#165666)

I saw a Nader speech from American University on C-Span one day and when they panned the audience, there was some kid wearing a corvair tshirt. I laughed for a good 5 minutes on that. Then I made a sandwich.

Taos

Innovation and Slashdot (1)

Zico (14255) | more than 13 years ago | (#165668)

Smart tags, wheel/optical mouse, modularizing the web browser engine as just another system component, intelligent menus or whatever they're called, SOAP/UDDI. Well, that was easy.

Of course, now people will whine that those aren't really innovations since they were based on previous work. Well, too bad, everything is based on previous work, and if anyone should know that, it's the typical Slashdot user.


Cheers,

Re:What I'd ask (1)

Zico (14255) | more than 13 years ago | (#165669)

Except that they don't use the BSD stack.


Cheers,

Re:Innovation and Slashdot (1)

Zico (14255) | more than 13 years ago | (#165670)

Please, don't even bring up that piece of crap mouse that you couldn't use anywhere except on a special mousepad. It doesn't even deserve to be mentioned on the same page as the real optical mice that companies make now.

Listen: The web browser engine as just another component instead of having a monolithic web browser is a good thing 99.5% of the time. You can thank Microsoft for that.

Cheers,

Let's be nice and freak him out. (2)

Medievalist (16032) | more than 13 years ago | (#165676)

It looks to me (from some of the memos brought into evidence at the DOJ .vs. MicroSoft anti-trust suit) like Microsoft's employees are generally crude and impolite, as well as being fond of violent metaphors ("let's cut off their air supply" and "we're going to kill [insert competitor name here]"). Not that it's unusual for computer geeks to have poor social skills ;^).
Mundie will probably be ready and willing to deal with the types of questions people are posting here (yes, I understand you're just venting, the real questions are on the O'Reilly site) so let's use a little akido on him and be nice.
He'll come in all combative and we'll show the world how reasonable and well-spoken we are. You can't buy publicity like that. Well, OK, you can, but it's out of Tim O'Reilly's price range.
--Charlie

It's more effective to fight fire with water. Yes, I know this sounds weird coming from me, but consider it strategy.

Re:Closed source apps for Open Source OS's (2)

Osty (16825) | more than 13 years ago | (#165677)

Currently Corel's WordPerfect is the (more or less) standard office product for the Linux world, and I sort of wonder if Microsoft would be willing to challange that dominance, and perhaps gain a (little) bit of good will from a community that it has otherwise sorely alienated (to say the least).

I think that'd be a no-win situation for Microsoft. On the one hand, if Microsoft doesn't port Office (ie, the status quo), they're blamed for tightly integrating it into the OS, and using their OS muscle to move Office units (neither of which are true, as witnessed by the fact that Office runs natively on the Macintosh, and runs well, and sells well even though Microsoft doesn't own the Mac). On the other hand, if Microsoft does port Office, they'll get called down for "trying to expand their monopoly". Not to mention not being able to recoup their developement costs due to the fact that lots and lots of Linux users are of the mind that everything for Linux should be free (wouldn't surprise me if some thought the hardware should be free as well) (note that's free, not Free, which is another can of worms, and I'll leave that for some other time).

That said, Microsoft's spokespeople have said more than a few times that whether or not they port applications to other platforms is a function of the demand for that application (coupled with profit potential, obviously, but that's why they're a business and not a non-profit organization). If you really want to see Office on Linux, start a letter-writing campaign. Rally everybody you possibly can, give them a well-written form letter expressing the desire to see Office on Linux and the willingness to pay reasonable prices, and bury Redmond under a deluge of requests to see Office/IE/Money/whatever on Linux. I'm sure you'll see some results.

What I'd ask (3)

Lumpish Scholar (17107) | more than 13 years ago | (#165679)

Mr. Mundy, you talked about how horrible it would be if software whose development was funded by the U.S. govenment was "Open Source" (presumably GPL'ed). Such software is always public domain, which means there are no restrictions on how Microsoft or anyone else can use it.

Were you just being disingenuous, or did you actually have a point?

(I'd have posted this to ora.com, but it wouldn't accept a request from behind a proxy server.)-:

Re:Craig Mundie (2)

Mike Schiraldi (18296) | more than 13 years ago | (#165680)

11) What is the code to get 30 lives in Contra?

--

Re:Innovation and Slashdot (2)

Surak (18578) | more than 13 years ago | (#165683)

Smart tags, wheel/optical mouse, modularizing the web browser engine as just another system component, intelligent menus or whatever they're called, SOAP/UDDI. Well, that was easy.

Smart tags--what about XML/XSLT?

Wheel/optical mouse: I know a guy who came up with the wheel mouse back in late 80s and I beleive he even filed a patent application (I don't know if it was awarded or not...maybe patents.ibm.com could come up with the answer to that?). He wanted to sue Microsoft, but couldn't get the money for a lawyer

Optical mouse: I remember optical mice as early as about 1986 .... they required a special reflective mouse pad and were much more expensive than traditional mice but they were there!!!

Intelligent menus are also nothing new.

I don't know what SOAP/UDDI is, so I won't answer that one. :)

Re:Innovation and Slashdot (4)

Surak (18578) | more than 13 years ago | (#165684)

Having the webbrowser as an OS component isnt always a good thing

Not a good thing? KHTML is cool, IMHO. It allows many KDE programs to view Web pages right inside their program. This is good.

OF course, if you run Linux you don't have to have KDE, and therefore you don't have to have KHTML. I can't say the same thing for Windows. If I have Windows, I'm pretty much stuck with Internet Exploiter.

Re:Closed source apps for Open Source OS's (2)

powerlord (28156) | more than 13 years ago | (#165688)

While Closed source apps for Open Source OS's is a nice idea, and a viable buisness model, there is a proviso:

It only works, if your product is worth someone paying good money for.

In the case of MS, they definately make products that are considered the de-facto standard. You'd think this would encourage them to make it available on other platforms, however their dominance of the platform AND the app market ("Office Suites") translates into complete control of the industry.

If they released Office for Linux (or BSD) then they wouldn't have the same "tightly integrated development relationship" with the OS developers. They would be forced to compete with others on a much more equal playing field. Plus, I'm not sure if even WINE could make Office compile on Linux, since so many of the "standard" DLLs are incorporated within the product (note that I'm not talking about running MS apps with the DLLs available, but rather compiling a Linux native version of the app).

Lastly, they wouldn't be able to force the upgrade cycle as much, since you could always upgrade the OS, without necessarily upgrading the Office Suite, and vice-versa. That alone is reason it will probably never happen.

Nice Marketing Idea (2)

powerlord (28156) | more than 13 years ago | (#165689)

Whatever else your feelings, the potential of debate and discusion from those Keynote speeches and that panel should be enough to draw a decent size crowd. That should sell conferance tickets/media/etc.

Should make O'reily a few dollars (not that I wouldn't go if I could ::grin::)

Re:Irony? (1)

schon (31600) | more than 13 years ago | (#165696)

Nahh.. more like having David Duke as keynote speaker at an NAACP meeting.

Re:Craig Mundie (1)

schon (31600) | more than 13 years ago | (#165697)

An equilateral triangle 2' on a side uses less material than a circle 2' in diameter.

Yeah, but there's no way you'd get a 250 pound drainage worker to fit through it :o)

Re:Irony? (1)

toopc (32927) | more than 13 years ago | (#165700)

There is irony here, but not like you think.

The irony is that Microsoft is able to use an Open Source conference to further their message. You guys should just go ahead and take some ads out in the NY Times for them and save yourselves the hassle.

Whether you want to admit it or not, they have a good point on the GPL. The best you can hope for is to clarify that their point only relates to the GPL and not Open Source in general. Unfortunetly for you, the Open Source poster child, Linux, get's screwed regardless.

Is Microsoft gonna GPL Windows? (3)

SpinyNorman (33776) | more than 13 years ago | (#165701)

Mr. Mundie, given that Microsoft is so fearful of the GPL yet has the option of maintaining it's own "shared source" business model, does this mean that:

a) Microsoft is considering GPLing Windows, but is worried about the outcome

OR

b) Microsoft realizes it is being out-competed by GPL'd software

P.S. Which swear word does Bill Gates most commonly use when referring to Linux?

Re:Innovation (1)

csbruce (39509) | more than 13 years ago | (#165704)

innovate, vb.: 1. To appropriate third-party technology through purchase, immitation, or theft and to integrate it into a de-facto, monopoly-position product. 2. To increase in size or complexity but not in utility; to reduce compatibility or interoperability. 3. To lock out competitors or to lock in users. 4. To charge more money; to increase prices or costs. 5. To acquire profits from investments in other companies but not from direct product or service sales. 6. To stifle or manipulate a free market; to extend monopoly powers into new markets. 7. To evade liability for wrong doings; to get off. 8. To purchase legislation, legistators, legislatures, or chiefs of state. 9. To mediate all transactions in a global economy; to embezzle; to co-opt power (coup d'état). Cf. innovate, English usage (antonym).

Re:I got a couple questions for him... (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 13 years ago | (#165713)

you couldn't pay me enough.

Re:Would you calculate MS's profits using int (1)

pnatural (59329) | more than 13 years ago | (#165715)

Ah, true. But you could measure the the profits of Sun(tm) using a short.

Re:My question to Mr. Mundie and Mr. Oreilly (2)

Zigg (64962) | more than 13 years ago | (#165719)

And I just want to say -- why not?

One need not love the GPL or Linux to appreciate and advocate open source or free software.

Re:Wow, Smart move by Tim (3)

Zigg (64962) | more than 13 years ago | (#165720)

Tim seems to have a knack for calling controversial folk to the mat. Remember Bezos and one-click?

Re:What I'd ask (1)

matman (71405) | more than 13 years ago | (#165724)

Stuff released under GPL is NOT public domain.

Irony? (2)

WombatControl (74685) | more than 13 years ago | (#165725)

Does anyone else find it quite odd that Mundie is giving a speech at an Open Source conference? It seems to me that's like having Louis Farrakhan as the keynote speaker for a conference on Judiasm.

Still, I suppose they'll get some good press out of it. Hopefully they'll be able to show the PHBs why putting up with a company that rapes you with forced upgrades isn't necessary or wise.

Re:Innovation and Slashdot (1)

Phork (74706) | more than 13 years ago | (#165726)

sun made optical mice long before microsoft did. Having the webbrowser as an OS component isnt always a good thing

Re:Craig Mundie (1)

merky1 (83978) | more than 13 years ago | (#165728)

9) Why are manhole covers round?

It's the only shape that won't fall through the hole.

Re:Craig Mundie (1)

merky1 (83978) | more than 13 years ago | (#165729)

Still could fall in. granted, it would take some actually effort, but could be done.

Governments (4)

AirLace (86148) | more than 13 years ago | (#165730)

You said in one of your previous speeches that Microsoft is opposed to governments releasing source code under the GNU GPL Free Software license. I beg to differ.

Surely if the government has been funded by the taxpayer to develop this software, then it should be placed under a license that requires that it remains free to the funders? If the source code is placed under a less restrictive license such as the BSD license where the code can be integrated into proprietary products such as Microsoft Windows, then the customer will be forced to pay the vendor of the proprietary software for something they have in fact already paid for when they paid their tax to the government. Do you think that this secondary "Microsoft tax" is fair on customers?

For all the Space Ghost Fans (3)

krmt (91422) | more than 13 years ago | (#165732)

So Mr. Mundie...

... what are your super powers?

"I may not have morals, but I have standards."

Re:What .NET is... (4)

blakestah (91866) | more than 13 years ago | (#165733)

Come on, don't spew the company line. Talk in plain English.

.NET is several things to Microsoft. First and foremost it is intended to kill Java and any other competition for internet based apps. Secondly, it is designed to interoperate with Microsoft's new revenue model in which each person pays $100 each year for the privilege of using Office, and varying amounts for other Microsoft apps. Thirdly, it is meant to give Microsoft a stranglehold on all internet based communications. .NET will require Microsoft name resolution, Microsoft SMTP, and just about anything else from Microsoft as well. The internet will be a COMPLETELY different world if you are running Windows than if you are not.

In short, with .NET Microsoft hopes to do to the internet what they did to the desktop in the early and mid 90s - own it and leverage it. It will promise benefits to the consumer but provide none.

Mr Mundie (5)

4of12 (97621) | more than 13 years ago | (#165734)


Sir:

Much controversy has surrounded Microsoft's Shared Source initiative, particularly given the differences between the licensing terms that apply to MS Shared Source and the licensing terms that apply according to the GNU Public License.

Hypothetically, suppose I am a programmer with MS Shared Source in front of me on one hand, and a different GPL source in front of me on the other hand.

Suppose, further, that in both cases I have a brilliant idea, an idea that will substantially increase the feature set, reduce bugs, and increase performance.

For both application programs, each under its own license, describe exactly

  1. the costs (money, time, opportunity)
  2. the benefits (same)
that would pertain to each of three important parties
  1. myself, the programmer
  2. Microsoft corporation
  3. everyone else (public users, other companies, other programmers, etc.)
both in the short term and in the long term if I were to improve the code for the respective application program.

I would most appreciate a ranking of those costs and benefits.

Re:Craig Mundie (2)

Fjord (99230) | more than 13 years ago | (#165736)

That's not entirely true. For example, a 2'x2' square cannot fall into a 2' diameter circular hole. Why do people always thing the lid has to be the same shape/size as the hole? Even manhole covers are slightly larger than the holes (though they are the same shape).

It is the cheapest shape with that property.

Re:Craig Mundie (2)

Fjord (99230) | more than 13 years ago | (#165737)

Actually, even the last statement isn't true, as the cover doesn't necessarily have to be the same thikness, so it could be just as cheap to make the square cover. This depends on whether or not manhole covers are so weighty so that they can stand the cars on top of them, or so they are harder for a lay person to pop off. If it's the first, then it probably is the economics of it.

Otherwise, the round cover is arguably more useful because you can open it in any direction (after rotating the pivot point), and it's marginally easier to close (you don't have to get position and rotation correct). But it's probably more of a case of "round hole, round cover" logic that isn't actually a good reason why, just the reason why.

Re:What .NET is... (1)

egomaniac (105476) | more than 13 years ago | (#165738)

"...best of both worlds by giving you all the
functionality you have come to expect from the Java platform with the added benefit of using languages other than Java (C++, C#, VB, Javascript, VBScript, Perl and a few others)..."

Or rather, it gives me all of the functionality I have come to expect, other than the ability to run on non-Windows platforms, a fantastic component library, a far more capable graphics library, incredible ease of loading and linking new code, and a million other things. .Net has all the disadvantages of Java but none of its advantages.

But, the advantage of .Net is that instead of restricting myself to one good language, I can have my team of programmers writing the project in a half-dozen bad languages, none of which is comprehensible to more than one of them. Woohoo!

Seriously, though, I truly don't consider that an advantage. Try working on a two million line program, chunks of which are written in dead languages nobody around understands, and which only compile in specific old versions of their respective compilers, and *then* tell me that giving a team of fifty people the ability to each use absolutely any language they please is a Good Thing.

Re:What .NET is... (2)

egomaniac (105476) | more than 13 years ago | (#165740)

"Java is write once, run anywhere. This is a major advantage if you are running lots of client Java code on varying platforms. But since most Java development is server based then the fact that a program is WORA loses its charm"

Ummm ... you don't develop server code, do you? You have this backwards. And I say this as a professional server-side Java developer.

Client code is precisely where WORA is irrelevant, because Windows might as well be the only game in town. This is one of the big reasons why Java hasn't exactly taken the desktop by storm -- any sensible person, even a Java fan like myself, will tell you that Java has a number of disadvantages (primarily WRT to the GUI), and the ability to move to non-Windows platforms doesn't generally hold enough attraction to outweigh the disadvantages.

The situation is completely different on the server, where there are tons of different architectures (Solaris, Linux, BSD, Win NT & 2000, AIX, etc.), and clients don't like having to buy and support new servers just to run your software.

So if you want to deal with an AIX shop, you either write highly portable Unix code (a chore in itself) and rule out the Windows/etc. market, or you write Java code. A lot of people have been taking the latter option (and of course on a server there is no concern about Java's poor GUI performance). Java absolutely kicks ass on the server precisely because of its portability.

Re:What .NET is... (4)

Carnage4Life (106069) | more than 13 years ago | (#165741)

In other words, java - without the advantages of java.

Depends on what you mean by the "advantages of Java". The primary advantages of Java are a.) ease of development and b.) cross platform support.
  1. C# is primarily a Java based language that fixes a couple of things Java got wrong (there is now a const keyword, there are out parameters, there is a foreach construct, there are enums, etc) and also has some annoying holdovers from C++ (what's the deal with the virtual keyword?).

    For ease of development I'd rank them about equal. If the development is Windows based then C# beats the pants off of Java since it has access to certain APIs directly instead of having to go through JNI as would be done in Java.

  2. Java is write once, run anywhere. This is a major advantage if you are running lots of client Java code on varying platforms. But since most Java development is server based then the fact that a program is WORA loses its charm. Secondly most Java communication between various platforms is done via RPC mechanisms (CORBA or RMI) and .NET supports an XML based RPC format called SOAP [develop.com] which is as cross platform as you can get since all the other platform needs is an HTTP server.

One place .NET shines over Java is that you are not forced to do all your development in Java but instead can use the right tool for the job in different parts of your project and combine them seemlessly. Utilizing Perl classes from VB or inheriting from C# classes in C++ is very attractive and extremely cool.

--

What .NET is... (5)

Carnage4Life (106069) | more than 13 years ago | (#165742)

What, exactly, is .Net?

Developer View:
.NET is the next generation of Microsoft's component technologies (COM, COM+, DCOM) which incorporates lessons learned from Java. COM is a technology that allows you to interact with components written in different languages transparently and is descended from OLE (Object Linking and Embedding which is the technology that was developed to allow being able to drag an Excel spreadsheet into a Word document) and . The languages that support COM are the Visual Studio languages as well as Object Pascal (Delphi). COM has its own binary format and while works almost transparently from Javascript, VB, and VBScript is a bitch to work with from C++. DCOM is the same as COM but it adds being able to do RPC (remote method invokation for the Java heads) from components irrespective of what language they are written in, kinda like CORBA without the ORBs.

.NET simplifies this by having a Common Language Runtime which is analogous to the Java JVM. COMable languages simply compile to the CLR format instead of to assembly code or a weird binary format. So this should lead to the best of both worlds by giving you all the functionality you have come to expect from the Java platform with the added benefit of using languages other than Java (C++, C#, VB, Javascript, VBScript, Perl and a few others) and transparently interact with objects written in these languages. Because all .NET languages have access to the CLR they can utilize it to extend themselves, e.g. Visual C++ has "managed extensions" that allows for garbage collection via the CLR.

The major goal is then to use this technology to build XML based web services.

Marketting View:
Microsoft .NET is Microsoft's XML Web services platform. This is the next generation of Internet computing, using XML to communicate among loosely coupled XML Web services that are collaborating to perform a particular task. Microsoft's .NET strategy delivers a software platform to build new .NET experiences, a programming model and tools to build and integrate XML Web services, and a set of programmable Web interfaces. [microsoft.com]

PS: Please do not take this as some official MSFT response, I'm merely an intern and in fact this is a reprint of a post [slashdot.org] I made before I got to Redmond.

--

Re:What I'd ask (2)

(void*) (113680) | more than 13 years ago | (#165743)

That which some claim is, in fact, true. Microsoft is wholly wiiling use and admit to using the BSD stack. This shows that they certainly will reuse code that they can legally reuse. But BSD code is free, just like the GPL is free. Then observe that they object to "open-source" pretending that it is GPL and hence "viral". In other words, they have no objection to re-using code that they can reuse, but object when they must share it back.

Re:Would you calculate MS's profits using int (2)

Xpilot (117961) | more than 13 years ago | (#165749)

On Sun, we have long long :)

Re:Questions (1)

EvilAlien (133134) | more than 13 years ago | (#165756)

You see, GPL is a mere cancer on intellectual property, Microsoft is a malignant tumor which has metastastized, seriously compromising the survivability of the entire organism. Or is it the new organism?

How come nobody even defends the right to life of tumors?

Re:What .NET is... (2)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 13 years ago | (#165757)

In my job, I work with both NT and *nix servers, so the ability to WORA is vital, and I can vouch for the fact that java lives up to its promise in this area.

Also, using java, you're not tied to one company - yeah, Sun sets most of the standards (currently), but IBM, Borland, Apache and many other organisations are also involved.

As for SOAP, java can support that as well. I don't think SOAP is the be-all and end-all though, because it is designed to work over http and pass through firewalls. I can't see too many secure sites will be rushing to use it.

Granted, C# sounds very interesting but it seems waaaaay too Microsoft centric for my liking.

Re:What .NET is... (4)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 13 years ago | (#165759)

In other words, java - without the advantages of java.

Innovation (5)

Salsaman (141471) | more than 13 years ago | (#165760)

Microsoft is always talking about 'innovation' in their products. Can you name five M$ innovations which were not copied or stolen from rival products ?

Mumdie's asnwers (3)

Srin Tuar (147269) | more than 13 years ago | (#165762)

To save you the time Ill tell you how he would answer:

Q:What, exactly, is .Net?

A: .Net is Innovation.

Q: And what is the difference between Open Source, Free Software, Linux and GPL.

A: They are all the same

Q: Do you have cancer?

A: No, I do not use open source products.

Re:This Is Not A /. Interview! (2)

_xeno_ (155264) | more than 13 years ago | (#165763)

Unfortunately, the link you gave won't work since it uses the Referer: header to determine where the comments came from. Or at least, it did for me - the page claims this will be "fixed soon," so if it works for you, they've fixed it!

Until then, either set your HTTP client to send Referer:http://oreilly.com/news/mundie_0601. html or simply go here first (the originating page) [oreilly.com] and follow the link that reads "Post your questions to Craig Mundie here, or read what others have to say!" that's on the very bottom of the page.

--

This is great news. (4)

the-banker (169258) | more than 13 years ago | (#165768)

Isn't this what we want? Engaging Mr. Mundie in a controlled debate of the issue definately favors Free Software, IMO. What better way to confront the FUD than face to face.

I also believe that as a community we need to stay focused on what is important and avoid falling into the same headline chasing FUD tactics that Microsoft uses. Competing with MS on their terms is foolish. Remember when Clinton's '92 campaign reverberated 'It's the economy, stupid!'? We need to stick to that same sort of level, but substitute economy with technology and freedom.

Re:Innovation (1)

Karn (172441) | more than 13 years ago | (#165769)

It really depends on how you define 'innovate'..


Dictionary.com's definition is:
Innovate: To begin or introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time.

We at Microsoft have redefined innovate:
imitate^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Innovate: 1. To use or follow as a model.

So, as you can see we have innovated many things..

The GUI..
OLE..
The Web Browser..
The Start Button

So, there you have it.

Re:What .NET is... (1)

elefantstn (195873) | more than 13 years ago | (#165772)

One place .NET shines over Java is that you are not forced to do all your development in Java but instead can use the right tool for the job in different parts of your project and combine them seemlessly. Utilizing Perl classes from VB or inheriting from C# classes in C++ is very attractive and extremely cool.

This is something that's said pretty often and has almost become conventional wisdom, but I take exception to it on two points:

  • Java can do that too. There's no reason other languages can't be written to compile to JVM bytecode, as Jython [jython.org] has. Multiple language functionality is not CLR advantage (although you could make the case that active support for so many languages is a .NET advantage).
  • It's bad programming practice to mix and match languages like that. Take your first example - utilizing Perl classes in VB. What happens if the developer who put your application together leaves? Now instead of finding of Perl developer or a VB developer, you have to find someone who knows both, and even if you do, it's going to be much more difficult for the new guy to get up to speed in a multi-language system.

.NET may have some advantages over J2EE, but I don't think that's one of them. And, as a side note, I think multi-vendorism is the best selling point of J2EE. Right now, I'm building an application using Linux, PostgreSQL, and JBoss (GPL'ed EJB container). If its use takes off, I can very easily upgrade it to Solaris, Oracle, and Weblogic, with almost no code changes.

embrace & extend - open source (3)

maddogsparky (202296) | more than 13 years ago | (#165774)

Microsoft often uses the phrase "embrace and extend" to describe its extentions to existing standards. What are Microsofts plans with regard to opening up its proprietary extensions to other developers, in light of its recent expansion into "open source?"

Closed source apps for Open Source OS's (4)

Lechter (205925) | more than 13 years ago | (#165775)

Does Microsoft have any plans to release binary versions of some of their more popular office applications for Linux or other open operating systems?

After all, apparently Microsoft makes the lion's share of its profits from applications rather than windows. I'm sure there's a decent-sided market for Office for Linux. I use Linux, and I'd certainly like to be able to use Word and Excell nativly - if nothing else then because their formats are the "defacto" standard these days.

Currently Corel's WordPerfect is the (more or less) standard office product for the Linux world, and I sort of wonder if Microsoft would be willing to challange that dominance, and perhaps gain a (little) bit of good will from a community that it has otherwise sorely alienated (to say the least).

Question: what about the BSD License (5)

Lechter (205925) | more than 13 years ago | (#165776)

OK I can see why you mighn't like the GPL, since it doesn't do corporations any good, but why don't you try releasing software, or using software under the BSD license, much as Apple did with Mac OS X? Perhaps that would allow programmers to have a deeper understanding of the workings of your software.

Re:Irony? (1)

sabine (206851) | more than 13 years ago | (#165777)

Well, he asked for "a dialog", supposedly...I can't decide if he's cocky or just REALLY dumb.

They'll make mincemeat out of him.

IMO, of course.

~sabine

Open Source != Public Domain (1)

Planesdragon (210349) | more than 13 years ago | (#165778)

If I take a public Domain work (oh, let's say a work of Shakesphere) and make a derivitive work, I don't have to make my work public domain.

If I were to take a GPL's copy of King's work, I would have to use the GPL.

Or in other words, *you trade the ability to not use the GPL in your work when you utilize GPL code in your project!*

This Is Not A /. Interview! (5)

update() (217397) | more than 13 years ago | (#165780)

All you people submitting questions -- this isn't a Slashdot interview! Ask them here! [oreilly.com]

Every time there's a headline here with the words "interview" or "ask" people start frantically posting questions. I confess I've been guilty of that a couple of times myself... ;-)

(Original subject: First "This Is Not A /. Interview!" Post! Apparently that trips the lameness filter.)

Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

Would you calculate MS's profits using int (4)

Hairy_Potter (219096) | more than 13 years ago | (#165781)

or long int?

We are talking billions and billions here.

Or would you use a real number for the decimal accuracy?

"Shared Source" and the NT native API? (4)

Philbert Desenex (219355) | more than 13 years ago | (#165783)

Windows NT, Windows 2000 and presumably Windows XP had a "native" API that Microsoft never bothered to document publicly. Microsoft has used this on various occasions to aid favored 3rd party vendors (Exececutive Software received access to the native API for "Diskeeper") and to hobble despised 3rd party vendors (Netscape's web server was much slower than IIS, because IIS used the native API, and Netscape used Win32).

Once Microsoft lets people view NT/2000/XP operating system code, the "native" API will be out of the bag. Microsoft won't have semi-secret "native" APIs to barter with.

How much of a force *against* the "shared source" approach was the existance of the "native" API?

Re:Craig Mundie (1)

The Troll Catcher (220464) | more than 13 years ago | (#165784)

No fair answering the question for him!

;)

Re:Would you calculate MS's profits using int (1)

NoOneInParticular (221808) | more than 13 years ago | (#165785)

Funny, made me remember an MS white paper I saw a couple of years ago, discussing how to port the Win32 API to Win64. The thing that really made me laugh out loud was the integer handling. They actually suggested a couple of macros:

INT64

but also

LONG64

both in signed and unsigned variants.

So the question could actually be:

Would you calculate MS's profits in int64 or in long64?

Re:What .NET is... (1)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 13 years ago | (#165786)

Good lord.

COM, COM+, DCOM, OLE, VB, CORBA, ORB, JVM, CLR, XML...?

On top of everything else, it appears .Net is an excellent conversation starter to drop acronyms with...

Re:Offtopic (1)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 13 years ago | (#165787)

Argh. Didn't see that one coming. Don't suppose an editor can change that to tomato juice or something.

Unless coca-cola owns that as well...

Goddamn it.

Microsoft's anti-GPL stance (2)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 13 years ago | (#165789)

Considering that Microsoft has no plans to implement GPLed code into its own products, nor does it plan on sharing its source code with the general public in the same wide and unrestricted (from the point of view of obtaining and viewing) manner as GPLed code, how can MS justify its recent information campaign clarifying its stance on the GPL? MS's opinion on the GPL is as irrelevent as Coke's opinion on orange juice.

Furthermore, the only parallel that MS products and GPLed applications have in common is from the point of view of end-use, NOT further development on the core product, and this does not involve the GPL at all. On the surface it appears that MS is using the GPL, which is a distinguishing feature of one of its major competitors, the Linux Operating System, as a focal point for criticism to gain an edge in the general public's eye, despite the fact that the general public will probably have no need to explore those areas of the competing product which will actually involve the GPL. Given this, once more, how is this information campaign relevent, and how is it ethical?

parrot/o'reilly (1)

grovertime (237798) | more than 13 years ago | (#165790)

will there be much discussion on the parrot language at the convention - i'm lookin for info, where is the best place to go?

  1. is this.....is this for REAL? [mikegallay.com]

Re:What .NET is... (1)

A coward on a mouse (238331) | more than 13 years ago | (#165791)

Actually, the WORA deal is important on the server side, too, unless you are married to your server platform. Having server programs that can be deployed on any server with a compatible VM allows you to take a successful internet service running on big iron and quickly package it up for sale to the intranet market, and vice versa. Unless and until MS actually comes up with an OS that can run reliably on truly large servers, WORA for server applications is the best way to keep your options open.

Re:Closed source apps for Open Source OS's (1)

ClosedSource (238333) | more than 13 years ago | (#165792)

"If they released Office for Linux (or BSD) then they wouldn't have the same "tightly integrated development relationship" with the OS developers. They would be forced to compete with others on a much more equal playing field."

Well, MS Office is the dominant office package on the Mac even though they don't make the operating system, so the "can't compete" argument doesn't hold up.

How many Linux users would be willing to pay for MS Office if it were available? The answer to that question explains why MS hasn't made Office for Linux.

boot loaders (2)

lyapunov (241045) | more than 13 years ago | (#165794)

Why do Microsoft's operating systems do not attempt to cooperate with any other bootloaders, FreeBSD's, LILO, etc... when all of the other boot loaders go to great pains to make sure that all of the information for any operating system is left intact.

It is not impossible to recover from installing a Window's after other operating systems, but it is inconvenient.

This should be will within Microsoft's ability to do, so why hasn't it been done? And I will not accept any cheesy arguments like ours is better than theirs or the others won't work. They work well, and we all know it.

Re:Craig Mundie (1)

tanpiover2 (249666) | more than 13 years ago | (#165796)

Because manholes are round.

Duh.

Re:What .NET is... (1)

rohar (253766) | more than 13 years ago | (#165797)

So this should lead to the best of both worlds by giving you all the functionality you have come to expect from the Java platform with the added benefit of using languages other than Java (C++, C#, VB, Javascript, VBScript, Perl and a few others) and transparently interact with objects written in these languages.

The only real value of Java is the cross-platform ability. If .NET is a Microsoft only technology, it doesn't really mean anything, I might as well continue to use VB/VC++. I also don't see any real improvement in Win2000, (or XP for that matter) above NT4.


Whatcha doooo with those rollin' papers?
Make doooooobieees?

Hypothetical Example for Comparison (3)

Ranolf (255412) | more than 13 years ago | (#165799)

Microsoft appears to believe that the GNU Public License (GPL) presents some kind of danger to "intellectual property" rights, and that in particular Microsoft is trying to warn other companies [and not just software companies] of the danger.

With the exception of software companies, what danger does the use of the GPL really pose to most businesses, given that for them software is means to end and not the thing which defines them as a company? And how does Microsoft shared source offer GPL like benefits without the "IP Liability"?

I would like to offer a simple but specific example to clarify the context of the question: a small widget manufacturer has a production line, which he wishes to automate to stamp the logo of his customer on each widget. He has a database of customers, and a program developed by a large software company which controls the stamping press. He wants to connect the database and the stamping press program to change the stamp pattern according to his purchase orders in the database. This is a very simple adjustment. He cannot however modify the program, because the company which developed it has gone out of business, and he has no access to the source code. GPL software exists which he could use, but at the price of [potentially] sharing the that change with his competitors, but Microsoft also has a stamp press controller which he could buy, and get a Shared Source license for, enabling him to make the change. The question is, why should he choose MS and Shared Source over the GPL code? Is this ability really the core competency of his business, or merely a tool to help him in his real compentency which is making the best widgets? Presumably, if all that distinguished this manufacturer was his ability to stamp logos, how would the MS shared source license accomplish his goal of obscurity? Would MS not be privy to incorporate changes he made, and sell it at later date to his competitors or to make it a feature of MS StampPress? Would the low cost and low overhead of using GPL outweigh his concerns about IP competition? Furthermore, even supposing his competitors did end up using the "custom" code, does the fact that he can now benefit from any improvements THEY make change his decision - and can he benefit from changes other's make if he goes with MS Shared Source?

Re:What .NET is... (1)

Demerara (256642) | more than 13 years ago | (#165800)

You would think, wouldn't you, that ALL that technology would help a body spell properly.

Marketting View:

Market Marketing

.Net .Netting .AbsolutelyNettingAtAll

Re:What .NET is... (1)

Demerara (256642) | more than 13 years ago | (#165801)

Ooops, there you go again!

seem - vb.

appear, look, give the impression

seam - vb.

closure, ridge, line of stitching, joint

From the Macrosift Word 2000 thesarus.

Accordingly, I take it you mean "and combine them seamlessly"

Hove a nice dai

Re:Irony? (2)

ocbwilg (259828) | more than 13 years ago | (#165803)

Well, that was my question too! How the hell do you let Craig "Opensource is evil and stifles innovation" Mundie to be the keynote speaker at an open source conference? Or more to the point, why would you want him to be the keybote speaker at an open source conference? Do you not know what Craig is going to say about open source? Is this not the world's largest troll?

Re:Craig Mundie (1)

Dancin_Santa (265275) | more than 13 years ago | (#165805)

Equilateral triangular lids won't fall into holes either.

Why aren't manhole covers triangular?

Dancin Santa

Craig Mundie (5)

Dancin_Santa (265275) | more than 13 years ago | (#165807)

1) Do you pronounce "Monday" and "Mundie" the same, or do you emphasize the "day" in "Monday"?

2) Before you came to Microsoft, what special talents did you possess?

3) If I were to grep the Windows source code, how many "We'd be totally fucked if our customers knew we did this" comments would I find?

4) Are you wearing a hairpiece?

5) What's your /. ID, or do you troll anonymously?

6) When Bill or Steve makes a joke, does everyone laugh? Is it a fearful laughter?

7) How much Linux code is actually in Windows? Haha, just joking. Windows would be a lot stabler if it had any.

8) If you were a Hostess snack cake, which one would you be and why?

9) Why are manhole covers round?

10) Have you thought about suing tobacco companies and making a quick billion or two?

Dancin Santa

Re:Irony? (2)

r_j_prahad (309298) | more than 13 years ago | (#165809)

Does anyone else find it quite odd that Mundie is giving a speech at an Open Source conference? It seems to me that's like having Louis Farrakhan as the keynote speaker for a conference on Judiasm.

... or like having Ralph Nader as the guest of honor at the Corvair Society of America's national convention.

So... (1)

Ayende Rahien (309542) | more than 13 years ago | (#165810)

What, exactly, is .Net?

And what is the difference between Open Source, Free Software, Linux and GPL.

Do you have cancer?

--

Two witches watch two watches.

Re:My question to Mr. Mundie and Mr. Oreilly (1)

daveuserland (315086) | more than 13 years ago | (#165816)


Right on. Get rid of Mundie and instead have a session on how to do the open version of HailStorm.

Re:Closed source apps for Open Source OS's (1)

lyberth (319170) | more than 13 years ago | (#165817)

Microsoft has given some rather confusing statements from time to time regarding the office suite for linux, but in the end Balmer stated that there was plans for releasing Office for other OSs but definetly not for Linux. I don't remember where i saw the statement, but i did see it.
What other OSs he was talking about was not mentioned in the article.

Re:Would you calculate MS's profits using int (1)

sultanoslack (320583) | more than 13 years ago | (#165818)

No, no. You see "int" and "longint" are too standards compliant. They'd of course come up with something that didn't work quite as well but made it such that no other compiler could compile the code to compute their profits. Maybe "eInt" or ".int" or .

Re:Closed source apps for Open Source OS's (1)

lynx_user_abroad (323975) | more than 13 years ago | (#165820)

Don't get your hopes up.

If you want to see how well a Linux version of Office 2000
[B

Re:What I'd ask (1)

Delirium 21 (336429) | more than 13 years ago | (#165821)

Well there are restrictions in the GPL for how Microsoft could use such software--they couldn't, for instance, incorporate the code into their own product code without releasing the source for the appropriate portions of that product. Some claim that this is one of the reasons for Microsoft's hostility towards GPL software--they can't "embrace and extend" it their way.

Re:What I'd ask (1)

Delirium 21 (336429) | more than 13 years ago | (#165822)

Well there are restrictions in the GPL for how Microsoft could use such software--they couldn't, for instance, incorporate the code into their own product code without releasing the source for the appropriate portions of that product.

Some claim that this is one of the reasons for Microsoft's hostility towards GPL software--they can't "embrace and extend" it their way.

Re:What .NET is... (1)

gupta (413494) | more than 13 years ago | (#165823)

even though i am not fan of MS and windows, i am sure .Net will kick Java's b&#! on Windows. who

what we really want to know (3)

Magumbo (414471) | more than 13 years ago | (#165824)

Mr. Mundie,

Did Microsoft purchase O'Reilly and Associates? If so, will they continue to use *TeX or switch to doing layouts using Word? Also, please leave the 18th century woodcuts alone, we like their distinctive look. Thank you.

--

FOIA (1)

$hotgun (449276) | more than 13 years ago | (#165825)

Ask him which liscense is more like the FOIA.

Background: Politicians passed the Freedom of Information Act, after a LOT of pressure from news organizations, because people wanted to know what their government, which they are paying for, is up to. The government doesn't know who will request what information, but the general consensus is that if anything bad is happening, someone will request the right information and expose it.

Open Source code provides for the same thing to happen with computer programs. Closed source is like a closed government in that people we don't really know or trust are able to do things that we would rather they not with impunity and on our dime.

Again with open source, not everyone will look at the source code, in fact, very few will, but the code is open to review by whoever would request it. If there is something underhanded going on, someone who has not signed a NDA will discover it and proclaim what is found from the mountain tops.

Mr. Mundie, how can the public be assured that Microsoft is not doing underhanded things if no one is allowed to review the code except for Microsoft employees and those hand picked by Microsoft.

Questions (4)

Violet Null (452694) | more than 13 years ago | (#165828)

If the GPL is described as a "cancer", what malignant term does that leave to describe Microsoft's behavior? Microsoft bills itself as "software for the agile business". How does having the XP software force customers to call Microsoft when they change hardware contribute to agility? Similarly, how does having the XP software require the exact same CD that was used for installation be on hand for verification, applying service packs, etc. contribute to agility? Where do you get your drugs, and do you have any to share with the rest of the class? Seeing as how the linux faithful already view Bill Gates as the antichrist, do you have a particular character from Revelations that you would like to be viewed as?

Here's my question: (1)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 13 years ago | (#165829)

I posted this on the O'reilly site (I really would like to hear an answer to this one!)

"Recent remark by Microsoft managers (among others, yourself and Steve Ballmer)regarding Linux, GPL and Open Source have been full of errors. Regarding that fact, which of the two suggestions is correct:

1. The managers of Microsoft are extremely un-informed when it comes to their "biggest threat" (as said by Steve Ballmer). In which case we can seriously question their expertise regarding matters conserning the software industry.

2. Or that the managers of Microsoft have deliberatly lied and spread misinformation regarding their competitors (which of course is completely un-ethical)."

Re:I got a couple questions for him... (1)

10Ghz (453478) | more than 13 years ago | (#165830)

I know it's a foreign concept to Linux companies, but see, Microsoft actually has money to pay their employees. VA Linux might soon be reduced to paying their employees with sexual favors

You are missing the point. Open Source developers don't do it for the money, they do it because they like it ;)

cnet article (3)

ghack (454608) | more than 13 years ago | (#165832)

cnet has an article about the same subject. according to them, Red Hat's Michael Tiemann is going to be in a debate w/Craig Mundie... http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6218716.html? tag=st.lx.1491268.today.1003-200-6218716

Re:"Shared Source" and the NT native API? (1)

SPOC (455611) | more than 13 years ago | (#165834)

I don't think the API will get out of the bag.

As I remember Microsoft will show source only to "selected customers". I don't believe such "special" people will discuss "native" API with their competitors.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>