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189 comments

I can't wait (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848375)

to throw it off a cliff.

fnord (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848393)

fnord

Re:fnord (-1)

magic maverick (2615475) | about a year ago | (#43848405)

I've seen the fnords! I've seen them! They're everywhere! Protect your children! Hide your women and meN! the aliens are coming! The lizards are in control of hte government, and teverything is coming unstucck!! ! ! !

and ym best referal bonus was $5 and a milkshake. that milk shake was good. i set up my brother ! i betrayed hiam>! but i got a mlikshak andd that was the best evevt6y.

Recruiter Commision (5, Informative)

Frankie70 (803801) | about a year ago | (#43848423)

If the company goes through a recruiter, they pay around 20-25% of the employee's annual salary to the recruiter (if the employee sticks around for 'x' months). So this may be reasonable for the company for a job which pays 100K to 150K annually.

Re:Recruiter Commision (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848457)

2-3 months salary is normal around here for recruiter pay (Holland). But recruiters are rather vilified and not trusted. Most companies, large and small, I know don't work with independent recruiters. Don't trust them further than you can throw them.

Re:Recruiter Commision (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848641)

I hope you feel the same way about realtors.

Re:Recruiter Commision (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#43849219)

Everyone should.
They are worse than used car sellers. The only folks worse are home inspectors. Even if you select one yourself, and pay him yourself he will still miss tons of stuff and try to give you the best impression of the house. This is because you are not likely to need future inspections but the realtor is. Also in many/most states they are only liable up to the cost of the inspection.

Making realtors and home inspectors at least as liable for issues with the property as used car salesmen are would be a huge improvement.

Re:Recruiter Commision (2)

CastrTroy (595695) | about a year ago | (#43849453)

I really don't see much wrong with home inspectors, Provided you can find a good one. Ask friends (and possibly your real estate agent, if you trust them) for referrals, and talk to a few before selecting one. While they may not be perfect, they certainly know a lot more than I do about houses, and will know what problems to look for. I'm sure there's plenty of bad ones out there, but you can basically say that about any trade/profession.

Re:Recruiter Commision (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#43849587)

You would be far better served by getting a plumber, a roofer, a HVAC tech, and a general contrator to look at the place. It would not cost you anymore either. The home inspector is just there to rubber stamp the house so you can get a mortgage. Anyone who is not willing to take some liability might as well not look at the place at all.

Re:Recruiter Commision (2)

Big Hairy Ian (1155547) | about a year ago | (#43848737)

Yep certainly had the Agencies cut taken off my agreed salary for three months before (I did complain). No mention of what Language/ALM they work with. Given that I know hundreds of Devs (Some of whom already live in commuting distance) it would be nice to know what skills they are looking for.

Re:Recruiter Commision (5, Insightful)

FreeUser (11483) | about a year ago | (#43849215)

Yep certainly had the Agencies cut taken off my agreed salary for three months before (I did complain). No mention of what Language/ALM they work with. Given that I know hundreds of Devs (Some of whom already live in commuting distance) it would be nice to know what skills they are looking for.

huh!?!

I've worked with recruiters for years, in Chicago, New York, and London to name just three places. I've never, ever, had my pay docked because of the recruiter's fee. Never. And every job I've had beyond the first out of college has been through a recruiter (and they've all been excellent jobs, on both sides of the pond).

The employer should always pay the recruiter's fee. You as an employee/candidate should never see the fee, probably won't know what the fee was, and shouldn't necessarily even be aware of the fee (other than in the most hypothetical sense).

Having your salary docked for three months...that's just crazy. The only instance I know of where that's the norm is with talent agents in the media...a journalist I know at a New York radio station pays n% of his salary to his talent agent, but that's an entirely different can of worms. In technical recruiting, that should never happen. If your employer docked you, I'd say your employer is more than a little suspect and I'd get your CV/resume out. If your recruiter is collecting from you, then you've been suckered into the wrong kind of recruiter.

Re:Recruiter Commision (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849491)

It's like there's a whole world out there, with different behaviors and customs.

Re:Recruiter Commision (1)

wvmarle (1070040) | about a year ago | (#43849701)

The only instance I know of where that's the norm is with talent agents in the media...a journalist I know at a New York radio station pays n% of his salary to his talent agent,

Which is sensible, assuming it is this journalist who asked the agent to get him work. So the talent agent provides their service to the journalist - and the journalist pays. This in contrast to when a company asks a recruiter to recruit someone for them, in that case the recruiter provides the service to the company, and the company pays.

In case of your friend the recruiters fee is definitely included in the salary he asks, if he wants to make say $1,000 and the fee is 20%, he'd ask $1,250. So that after the fee, he still has the salary he wants.

Re:Recruiter Commision (2)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | about a year ago | (#43848787)

The recruiter getting 20-25% of the employee's annual salary matches my experience, from both sides. Referral bonuses of $30,000 is unheard: I've seen plenty of referral bonuses offered of $500 to $1000 in the last year for work involving six figure salaries, including contracting work of more than six months duration.

Both Cambridge, MA and Dublin, Ireland are very expensive places to live with some of the highest developer salaries I've seen offered. My colleagues and I have gotten recruiting calls for both areas with salaries consistently over $100,000/year, even during the recent bank crisis. But if you factor in high housing costs, very high vehicle costs, or the additional housing cost of easy commuting access, they become much less appealing.

Re:Recruiter Commision (1)

Minupla (62455) | about a year ago | (#43848883)

We just doubled our internal recruiting bonus at work. Nothing like 30K but still, doubled.

We find that people who are internally recruited have better retention rates and are less likely to be 'misrepresenting themselves' then candidates from recruiters, generally speaking.

Min

Please Don't Beat the Free Puppies (3, Funny)

happy_place (632005) | about a year ago | (#43848837)

I don't think companies should be free to beat puppies in order to convince employees to join their company. I mean, that's like extortion, "If you don't scrum with us, we'll beat these puppies senseless!"

Re:Please Don't Beat the Free Puppies (2)

Gr8Apes (679165) | about a year ago | (#43848959)

I don't think companies should be free to beat puppies in order to convince employees to join their company. I mean, that's like extortion, "If you don't scrum with us, we'll beat these puppies senseless!"

So the question becomes "Are you willing to sacrifice yourself in place of the puppies?"

Re:Recruiter Commision (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849567)

$150k/year + $30k referral, then put the new employee in a noisy cubicle with a $40 chair and an outdated computer.

Re:Recruiter Commision (1)

tnk1 (899206) | about a year ago | (#43849707)

Part of the $150k they pay you for is the office survival skills where you know to steal the good chairs from the nice conference rooms for your desk. When they complain, if they do, you point out that your crappy broken chair is an OSHA issue and that really, you sit in your desk chair longer per day than anyone that sits in that conference room chair.

If I refer myself (5, Funny)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | about a year ago | (#43848441)

Can I get $30k *and* the job?

Re:If I refer myself (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848461)

If a good friend refers you :)

Re:If I refer myself (1)

mysidia (191772) | about a year ago | (#43848763)

Can I get $30k *and* the job?

What you need to do is find someone else to refer you.

Have your lawyer write up a contract that they will pay you 95% of the referral fee; and/or any amounts paid to them by the company or as a result of you being hired, and that also prohibits them from disclosing the details of the deal, or that there was a deal, or that there was any reason for referring you other than they had evaluated your work in the past.

In exchange, you will allow them to refer you, and you will provide them the details.

So they get $1000 bucks, you get $29000; the employer gets a great developer, who's really happy to work, especially with the extra cash, and boosted ego

Now, this only works if you get hired and stay on for the 120 days.

Re:If I refer myself (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848871)

Well, you don't really get $29,000 since you have to pay the lawyer. Actually you get the chance at $29,000 on the off chance that you are hired. Your co-conspirator gets a chance at $1000 if you are hired. Your lawyer gets his $1,000 (or so depending on his rate and billable hours used) whether you are hired or not. As usual, the lawyer always gets paid.

Re:If I refer myself (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848925)

I won't be referring you then. 95% of $30000 is $28500. If you can't do basic math you probably aren't a good developer.

Re:If I refer myself (3, Informative)

tgd (2822) | about a year ago | (#43848895)

Can I get $30k *and* the job?

While you may have been joking, that was not at all uncommon during the dot com boom. You'd basically negotiate the recruiter's fees into the signing bonus and grab $60-$80k in signing bonuses. If you were a particularly shrewd negotiator, you'd get 1/3 up front, the second 1/3 after 90 days or something and the rest at 6 months.

Those were the days ...

Re:If I refer myself (1)

CastrTroy (595695) | about a year ago | (#43849543)

Well, If they usually pay recruiters, I don't see anything wrong with this. When my friend bought his last house, he didn't use a real estate agent. So very early in the negotiations, he basically dropped the price of the house by 2.5%, because the commission on a house is usually 5% split between the agent of the seller and the buyer, and it's paid by the seller. If they don't have to pay that half of the commission to the other real estate agent, it should be subtracted from the price of the house. Same thing goes here. If the company usually pays $10,000 to a recruiter, and you manage to find the company yourself, the company should give you a $10,000 signing bonus.

Re:If I refer myself (1)

Shados (741919) | about a year ago | (#43849681)

They're called signing bonuses. Happens all the time in the big IT markets (in Cali, Mass, NY...)

If you're actually good, take a job in one of the big cities that house the top employers (even if you don't take a job with them...companies in the area have to compete somehow), and don't get a sign on bonus, you're negotiating wrong (or you're not as good as you think you are).

Wow, $30k eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848455)

My company just dropped its referral bonus from $2,000 to $500.

Needless to say, if I find a good developer I'm referring them to HubSpot.

Re:Wow, $30k eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848591)

But do they even operate in Canada?

Referral bonuses ? Seen them offered. (1)

vikingpower (768921) | about a year ago | (#43848471)

Never seen them awarded. Baked air, most of the time. YMMV, though.

Re:Referral bonuses ? Seen them offered. (2, Funny)

macson_g (1551397) | about a year ago | (#43848541)

I cashed in 5000 GBP for referral once. At the rate the US dollars are being printed currently, it should be equal to the amount mentioned in the article soon :)

Re:Referral bonuses ? Seen them offered. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848603)

I wouldn't make investment advice based on the financial 'insights' of random loonies, a quick check of the exchange rate tells me that the pounds sterling has been fairly steady when compared to the dollar for the last few years.

Re:Referral bonuses ? Seen them offered. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848653)

I think you will find that you are printing money almost as fast as the Americans. Which is why it is so sweet to be a Pommie Aussie right now.

Referral "bonuses" (1)

spamchang (302052) | about a year ago | (#43848479)

Maybe they've loaded the contractual clauses with fine print to help them avoid paying out $30k. Maybe the only bonus is $30k, which might be cheaper than any other headhunter's usual contract. Someone at HubSpot should think about contracting out to Bengaluru or Mumbai.

Re:Referral "bonuses" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848513)

Maybe they've loaded the contractual clauses with fine print to help them avoid paying out $30k

Maybe? Of course they have. There isn't a hope in hell of anyone receiving that bonus, it's just PR fluff to make headlines.

$EMPLOYER has a referral 'bonus' but I Idon't know a single person who has received it. There is always some reason they decline to pay; perhaps the candidate only had 10 years enterprise experience with .Net 3.5 instead of 4.0.

Re:Referral "bonuses" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848559)

That's a wonderful canary (in the coal mine) for when to get out of a company. If they offer their employees large cash bonuses and then weasel out with fine print (as opposed to clear and reasonable reasons), you should thank $EMPLOYER for being so explicit in their messaging to run away from them.

Re:Referral "bonuses" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848535)

...Someone at HubSpot should think about contracting out to Bengaluru or Mumbai.

Someone should probably realize they probably have tried already...and failed to find the talent they need.

The solution isn't always to replace one good developer with ten bad ones just because it's affordable. Time has a cost too.

Re:Referral "bonuses" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848553)

Good point about the contract. If AT&T offered such bonuses for referring developers, I'd refer someone, then tell them that person couldn't start working unless they paid me the $30,000 plus a $0.61 administrative fee.

Re:Referral "bonuses" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848607)

oh come on, you can't have administrative costs that low.

Recruiters can easily cost this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848519)

And I have been in the situation where projects/orders had to to be refused because there just weren't enough people to handle it. If you have a choice between paying 30k so you can accept a 300k project... that is pretty easy.

Mind you, as others have noted, getting these bonuses is usually impossible. Personally I think it is red flag. It is not like developers are impossible to find but the good people tend to avoid the bad companies. If they got to offer this much, just how much do they suck to work for? I betcha a google doesn't have to do this kinda of stuff.

Re:Recruiters can easily cost this (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43848823)

>> 30k so you can accept a 300k project... that is pretty easy.

Yes, it is easy: don't take the project. 10% (basically your profit) burned just to fill a seat. Hopefully you won't ever become a CFO.

Re:Recruiters can easily cost this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849555)

if you're a contractor and this is your foot in the door with a new customer, it's worth burning the profit at times. money isn't the only thing of value. sometimes just getting the contract is worth it on its own, even without the profit.

Re:Recruiters can easily cost this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849563)

I hope you're not in charge of anything, let alone becoming a CFO.

You have no idea what the profit margin would be on his 300k project and if you think a software development project can be handled with a 10% profit margin, you are delusional.

It is nice however how you went out of your way to be an asshole though, your reward is people like me showing what it's like to have some fucktard come along and start insulting you. Of course you asked for it, the AC that you responded to was minding their own business when you responded.

Of course (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848647)

The conclusion repeatedly reached by academic researchers in software engineering is that there is an 'order of magnitude' difference among good and mediocre developers, and good developers are perenially in short supply.

So the answer is yes, it's absolutely worth the money.

Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (5, Interesting)

JaredOfEuropa (526365) | about a year ago | (#43848665)

Yes, good developers are hard to find. Ditto good sysadmins, business analysts, project managers, architects, etc. In larger corporations there's a strong movement to work around that scarcity by compartimentalizing the jobs, turning the whole into an assembly line, also because good people are not only hard to find but harder to manage as well. Not that the people themselves are difficult, but in most cases a group of excellent people will not have a uniform set of skills, so making the most of them requires individual talent management and more complex work planning.

What they end up with is sometimes called "predictable mediocrity". Just like having a mechanical assembly line, you'll have more control, easier planning and a predictable quality, at the expense of flexibility, innovation, sometimes cost, and excellence (your quality will be more predictable but I've rarely seen the average go up or even remain the same). What is also does is breed excellence out of the workplace: experts will be too expensive, they will not enjoy the nature of the work, and you will find it hard to offer a viable career path to talented workers. So I expect real talent to become even scarcer and more expensive.

Re: Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848725)

Unless you work for a Facebook pre iPo or some other hot company where you will get paid a lot via stock options, being a 24 hour working hotshot is not worth it

I would rather spend time with my kids. Even then I've seen people with kids control their hours and once the kids grow up they work more to show off

Everyone has different priorities. Once the 20 something's of today start to get married and have kids in a few years watch all the hot shots vanish and calls for family friendly workplaces to start up again

Learning to do more in 8 than most do in 16? (2)

raymorris (2726007) | about a year ago | (#43848805)

Some would say that if you spend 30-60 minutes per day actively learning, that's the equalivent useful knowledge of adding a new postdoc degree every few years. I could see such a person easily producing twice as much value per hour.

How many times have you had to completely rewrite someone else's code, or spent so much time on it that you might as have rewritten it? The "typical" developer creates enough future problems by poorly thought out systems that their net productivity approaches zero. It's not that hard to be twice as productive as the guy whose code only survives a year or two. Just learn to build systems that a) actually work b) for at least four years between major overhauls.

Re:Learning to do more in 8 than most do in 16? (2)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43848867)

Personally a big red flag for me is when a dev says "I have to completely rewrite this persons code."

Not saying it doesn't happen, but a decent developer should be able to deal with other peoples work.

Re:Learning to do more in 8 than most do in 16? (1)

Atzanteol (99067) | about a year ago | (#43848945)

Sometimes you realize that the long-term maintainability of the re-write is worth it though. Especially if the original is confusing or buggy.

Re:Learning to do more in 8 than most do in 16? (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43849241)

Sometimes... but rarely. Usually (not always) if it is that bad it won't be accepted in the first place. Software is the only system that gets better with time and use. Rewriting from scratch (as opposed to an intelligent refactor) totally negates that, not to mention flushed a companies investment in developing it right down the toilet (not that I really care about that).

Re:Learning to do more in 8 than most do in 16? (1)

Bob the Super Hamste (1152367) | about a year ago | (#43849627)

The few occasions where I have rewritten someone's code has been because it was initially very closely tied to some specific hardware (a couple of times), a tied to specific OS (a couple of times), or is no longer doing what it was originally intended to do (once). It isn't something that I do regularly as it does need consideration but when bringing something over to new hardware or a new OS it is worth looking at the time it would take to make the old code work or restart from scratch and correct the limitations of the original.

Yes, "have to" is different from "most efficient" (1)

raymorris (2726007) | about a year ago | (#43849365)

> Personally a big red flag for me is when a dev says "I have to completely rewrite this persons code."
> Not saying it doesn't happen, but a decent developer should be able to deal with other peoples work.

Indeed there is a big difference between "I have to" (because I don't understand the pattern or idioms) versus "It would be best to rewrite" (because the architecture or data structures are wrong).

Atzanteol mentioned another common case "if the original is confusing or buggy" and in that case a refactor is likely the best option.
I've done major refactoring of my predecessor's code of the type where I didn't attempt to understand the code confusing, buggy code until much of the refactoring was done. Just by mechanically breaking up the 200-line functions with variables like $bob and $fred into 15-line functions with variables named $radius and $scrollheight, the code was made much less confusing and the solutions to bugs were then obvious. That mechanical refactoring process ensured that it continued to work the same way, though, so I wasn't rewriting any logic, only reorganizing it to be more maintainable.

Re:Learning to do more in 8 than most do in 16? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849415)

The way I usually handle it is in two phases:

Phase 1: Make an attempt to maintain and even clean up and optimize the existing codebase. This is a total pain in the ass, but it usually wins a lot of goodwill from the client. If they see some improvement in performance or usability, they'll be happy to keep paying you to do more of it. And that's the hook being set in their jaw. They get "addicted" to that ever-increasing improvement in their software, and they want more. They always want more. And at a certain point, more can't happen. (This holds true even for your own software. Never forget that.) When you hit this wall, sell them the re-write. They'll probably go for it.

Phase 2: Re-write the app from scratch, using all of the knowledge you gained from the old code. This is essentially greenfield development, but on a system you're already somewhat familiar with. You're basically making a v2.0 without having to do the initial development on 1.0. Just don't get too attached, since nothing is "right" until 3.0.

Re: Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43848811)

>> Once the 20 something's of today start to get married and have kids in a few years watch all the hot shots vanish and calls for family friendly workplaces to start up again.

Oh there are always freshly minted grads to exploit... and former 20 something hotshots to lay off.

Hey what'd those all nighters getcha? A nice fat pink slip!

Re: Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (1)

SABME (524360) | about a year ago | (#43848835)

The problem is that a new generation of hotshots will just come along to replace the ones that have grown up and want sane working conditions.

Re: Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848891)

Because there won't be a hot batch of freshly-minted 20-somethings to replace them?

Re: Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (0)

JaredOfEuropa (526365) | about a year ago | (#43848935)

If you prefer a job where your individual talent and contributions matter rather than one where you're doing 9-5 assembly line work, you are more likely to find it in smaller companies. Such companies (especially startups) do tend to place more demand on your time. But there are also some companies where working at a highly individualized job doesn't mean you have to put in extra hours. For the past decade I've always managed to find jobs that were more or less tailored to my particular talents rather than to a generic "developer level x" profile, and while I do put in overtime when needed, on the whole these have been normal 9-5 jobs without any pressure to exceed normal working hours.

Re:Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848933)

One reason why good employees are scarce is that everyone has a different idea of what one is. You may have a clear idea but is it the same as the one your boss has, or your boss' boss? Probably not. Your boss probably wants someone who will make him/her look good, makes conservative project plans and nearly always finishes on time (as opposed to promising the Next Big Thing and finishing six weeks late), is good at training new hires, pleasant to be around, and does not cause problems with paperwork or vacations.

It gets even more complicated with job interviews when multiple interviewers are involved. Each of them has ideas of who would be a good fit and it's not necessarily who would be the best designer and coder in whatever languages and platforms you work with. They're all thinking "do I come to work every day with this person over in the next cubicle"? That's a fair question, but it's not necessarily the same as asking who would do the most for your company's technology or bottom line.

Re:Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (2)

umghhh (965931) | about a year ago | (#43849295)

I salute you Sir.

Not that I am that excellent but I am good enough and I see few of those better than me suffering from insults from below (refuse to improve the product and then scolding because somebody else did etc) all the time as well as from (hopefully only moderate) idiocy of management stuff too.

Re:Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | about a year ago | (#43849375)

I disagree that good employees are scarce. The fundamentals of the marketplace just don't bear it out:
1. There are more unemployed admins, developers, project managers, architects, etc than there were about 6 years ago.
2. There are more H1B visas than ever before, so if there weren't talented Americans there are certainly enough talented foreigners out there.

Now, is it true that the majority of those who are unemployed are probably not that good? Yes. But a few of them likely are really good, and offering a good price and perks and referral bonuses is a good way to get them interested in working for you.

Re:Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849547)

When a company starts giving out big referral bonuses there is usually a reason they cannot find employees. They also display high churn in their workforce. A 30k referral bonus for a good developer at a marketing company says to me that there is a problem with the business model or management that may drive away good employees.

Save The Puppies (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848705)

"Beats a free puppy."

Seriously, who writes this shit?!

one time my apartment complex gave me $50 (5, Funny)

decora (1710862) | about a year ago | (#43848713)

for referring my buddy dave.

turns out dave was doing a shake-n-bake meth lab in the back of his pickup. one night it exploded right there in the parking lot. a huge fireball lit the sky. my next door neighbor, doreen, thought iit was jesus come back for the rapture.

anyways. they wanted the $50 back. i said, i already spent it. i took the ex-inlaw's to the Golden Corral buffet, and at ten dollars a head, well, that money is clean gone.

they said, damnit, that sumbitch dave blew a hole in the parking lot.

i said no problem. i know a guy, ronnie earl, who works on the pothole truck for the city. ronnie knew how to get the hole fixed. he filed a pothole report but he used the name of his rich uncle as the report filer. his uncle, you see, owns 5 chevrolet dealerships and is the richest sumbitch this side of caw valley. (we used to call it squaw valley, until my brother bobby went and married that indian girl... it wouldnt be nice to call it that no more)

anyways. when it comes to referrals, you better get yourself some kinda papers saying they cant get it back if you accidentally misjudge someone's character. like ol' shake-and-bake dave.

Re:one time my apartment complex gave me $50 (1)

arkenian (1560563) | about a year ago | (#43848905)

So, every company I've ever worked at, the employee had to be a successful employee for (usually) about 6 months before you got your bonus. That means both a.) the employee will likely stick around, and b.) they have time to decide if your judgement was worth crap.

Stay away (5, Interesting)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about a year ago | (#43848789)

In my experience, they offer a large referral bonus when they have a bad reputation. The bonus is designed to bribe at least 1 person to say good things about them.

Re:Stay away (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848909)

In my experience, they offer a large referral bonus when they have a bad reputation. The bonus is designed to bribe at least 1 person to say good things about them.

Having just hired someone away from there ... you're absolutely right.

Re:Stay away (1)

BVis (267028) | about a year ago | (#43849407)

Please share. For some reason it's perfectly ok to trash a bad employee, but finding information about a bad employer is difficult.

Re:Stay away (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about a year ago | (#43848999)

Maybe it could be a good approach for someone like me who has no reputation. It would be a fair price to pay for being able to stay off social media.

Great bonus... have fun collecting (5, Informative)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43848795)

I worked for a place that had a great referral bonus (cough cough... BAE Systems... cough). Operation Eagle Eye they called it.

Well I found a developer that fit all the criteria. Filled out the paper work, got him interviewed and hired.... then all of a sudden email went quiet on the issue. Repeated emails to HR went unanswered. So finally I went down there in person to ask about the referral bonus. We'll get back to you. I got back to them (in person). Excuses: oh this facility doesn't participate in that program (so I went into the hall and pulled the poster off the wall and showed it to the HR rep). Oh your hire doesn't fulfill the requirements (so I got the requirements off the intranet site and checked them off). Oh that's right we didn't end up hiring him (he sits in the office next to mine). Finally I subtlety hinted that I would quit.

They then sent me half the advertised bonus... four months after I was supposed to get it... and withheld over half of it in taxes AND deducted my 401K percentage contribution from it (oh sorry that was an error by finance we can cut you a new check on 60 days).

So. Beware if this crap.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43848969)

FWIW HR saved you a headache by deducting the taxes up front and unless you were already set to max out your 401k for the year they did you a favor there too. Can't speak to the rest of the story...

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1, Funny)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about a year ago | (#43848991)

You think that sucks, you should see what happened to the people your products were used on.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1)

Xest (935314) | about a year ago | (#43849089)

Have any of BAE systems products ever actually been used? I tended to think they were in the business of producing ships, planes and vehicles that don't actually have any relevance in the modern world and were mostly just for show and profit like the F35 that barely even flies, the dogfighting Eurofighter for all that air combat we don't have nowadays and the Type 45 destroyers that don't actually have any weapons yet.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about a year ago | (#43849195)

Their missiles and drones do get used...but yeah those fighters and ships are all for the theoretical WW2-style WW3. A Eurofighter was used to escort down a plane recently.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43849333)

Don't confuse BAE Systems Plc (UK) with BAE Systems Inc (US).

While Inc is owned by Plc, they are in effect totally different companies.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43849189)

Some got their picture taken from above, and some avoided IED's. Horrible, I know.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1)

Chelloveck (14643) | about a year ago | (#43848993)

Meanwhile, those of us working for reputable companies have had no trouble getting the referral bonuses for people we've recommended.

Oh, wait... "inbound marketing company" Yeah, you may have a point.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1)

swillden (191260) | about a year ago | (#43849003)

They then sent me half the advertised bonus... four months after I was supposed to get it... and withheld over half of it in taxes AND deducted my 401K percentage contribution from it (oh sorry that was an error by finance we can cut you a new check on 60 days).

Well, the rest of it is crap, as is giving you half the bonus, but the taxes are just reality and it's hard to see why the company would intentionally misdirect the cash to your 401K. It's not like they get any benefit from doing that.

My experience at IBM was that I got paid promptly and in full -- though taxes took a big bite, much of which I got back on my tax return. I expect the same would be true of my current employer (Google), but I haven't yet managed to get a referral hired.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a year ago | (#43849165)

>>Well, the rest of it is crap, as is giving you half the bonus, but the taxes are just reality and it's hard to see why the company would intentionally misdirect the cash to your 401K. It's not like they get any benefit from doing that.

1) they admitted they over withheld taxes, even taking into account additional withholding for bonus pay
2) 401K is a stated coporate policy to not withhold that from bonus pay

The upshot is that they wanted as little $ in my pocket as possible. While it sounds petty and too much trouble for a large corporation to go through... if you have ever worked for BAE you know that this is simply the way they are. And they aren't alone.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (2)

Xest (935314) | about a year ago | (#43849045)

It's because it's one of those things that companies advertise but never actually plan on having to do in practice, so they have no process or procedure in place as to how to file in the accounts that you just gave someone $5k for a referral and admin staff being admin staff figure rather than deal what is to them a relatively complex problem compared to the simple word processing they normally do prefer to make up excuses as to why you can't have it.

I've actually seem companies like this with other policies too, even when it comes to such common place things like bonuses, where they advertise "up to 25% bonus" but don't ever actually pay out bonus regardless of performance simply because they've not bothered to sit down and figure out how it's calculated, how it's paid and what pot it comes out of. The net result being that it's just an advertising scam.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849331)

More like, beware of BAE. It is puzzling how HR would bitch over this like it came out of the staffers own pocket. Sociopaths working in HR there, no? You should probably quit anyways.
In any case, thanks for the heads-up. And yes, taxes withheld is to be expected, but not the 401k deduction of course.

Re:Great bonus... have fun collecting (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849583)

You work for the military industrial complex. Scamming is Job One. If you work on a project that helps kill innocent people, then you got at least what you deserved.

Side Track (1)

Murdoch5 (1563847) | about a year ago | (#43848825)

Funny thing is that most of the "all-star" developers I've worked with actually suck.

Re:Side Track (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849245)

Being called an "all-star" developer must be worse than being called a three-star developer, no?

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreeStarProgrammer

So.. (1)

bytesex (112972) | about a year ago | (#43848873)

You find three people in a year, and then you have to do nothing else?

Re:So.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849085)

One at least now understands the motivation for recruiters to machinegun spam to anyone with a resume that looks remotely technical.

Should be (1)

hsmith (818216) | about a year ago | (#43849035)

Yet again, I get endless emails from lazy recruiters via LinkedIn begging me to refer my friends for their worthless jobs. Hey, how about you do your own job.

Referral Bonus? BONUS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849081)

Ahahahahahaha!

No, seriously, that was a good one.....As if any company is willing to give bonuses to their employees these days. I'd just kill for a reasonable paycheck.

Carrot on a stick (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849107)

My company offers a referral bonus ($3k for any full-time exempt position that is listed on the career site), but they have 100 different ways they can get out of paying it. Just getting eligible for it is a nightmare in and of itself - the candidate has to apply online, and enter your information in the box, and it has to be spelled correctly, and have your correct email and phone - any typos and you lose eligibility. Then, you have to take a vacation day the day the candidate interviews, to ensure you have no contact with them or the interviewers on the day of the interview. Then, if the candidate is hired, there is a 90 day evaluation, which they have to score better than 4.0/5 on (and hardly anyone ever does).

Then, if all of those hoops-of-fire are jumped through, the referrer is invited to submit documentation that they were actually a personal acquaintance of the candidate. If HR is not convinced you actually had a personal relationship with the candidate, you lose eligibility.

Referral Bonuses (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849119)

I can't speak for companies, but my experience in the UK is that recruitment agents NEVER come good on promises of referral bonuses. I know the idea that "recruitment agents are all liars and cheats" won't come as news to anyone but it's always worth repeating.

Pfft (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849321)

For a marketing company they lack imagination.
All they need to do is give my firm a call and we'll put a whole team together for them.
But noooo, they like all of their ilk want little drones to commute into their little offices so the CEO can feel "dynamic".
And guess what, not everyone lives in (or wants to live in) Boston or Dublin.
For solutions they need only look to themselves.

Read that headline wrong (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43849481)

Did anyone else read that as "$30,000 For a Developer Funeral"?

they may get some recruiter BS and or fake people (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year ago | (#43849715)

they may get some recruiter BS and or fake people / resume padding.

Some recruiters do edit people resumes / pad them out.

Not so good (4, Interesting)

Larry_Dillon (20347) | about a year ago | (#43849773)

I left a great job for a lousy one because of a former co-worker at the new place who was singing the new companies praises -- just to get the referral bonus.

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