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Freenet's First Employee

timothy posted more than 13 years ago | from the doesn't-sound-like-a-grouch dept.

Privacy 154

An unnamed reader writes: "The Freenet project's first employee started work today. Oskar Sandberg, one of Freenet's core developers, will be working full-time on Freenet for the next two months, his living expenses being paid for by donations to the Freenet project. Freenet has come a long way in-terms of usability in the last few months, Oskar will initially be working on the next major release, 0.4, which will bring significant performance, security, and usability improvements to Freenet. The original announcement is here." (And here's where you can sweeten the pot, too.)

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Big Question and Waiting for the Big Answer (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#160174)

Why is this "News for Nerds, Stuff That Matters"?

Freenet already had employees in the form of
volunteers, so what's the big deal?

Not waiting in anticipation because I know this will moderated downward.

Thank you.

Important step (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#160176)

Freenet isn't the type of thing that your favorite Big Above-The-Law International Corporation would want to invest in.

The fact that donations can make this happen really demonstrates the desire for people to have, finally, a Free Net.

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

Wakko Warner (324) | more than 13 years ago | (#160177)

|| (parallels)

Um, do we get to throw Napster users to the lions?

--
Forget Napster. Why not really break the law?

Not the same thing, and doesn't look scalable (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160178)

Firstly, this doesn't really address the same problem as Freenet, it is more akin to Mixmaster from what I can see (although Mixmaster has a better pedigree). Secondly, the fact that every message seems to be broadcasted to every peer, forcing them to periodically split the network, really isn't a very scalable approach at all.

These guys would be well-served to investigate the "Dining Cryptographers" problem, which is a way that a group of peers can transmit information to each-other but remain anonymous (within the group) with mathematical certainty. Again, it isn't very scalable, and is subject to DOS attacks, but it does work.

--

Two months (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160179)

The money has already been collected to last two months which is the agreed amount of time he will work.

--

a quibble to your quibble (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160180)

I spoke to one of these guys a while ago, and according to him their problem was that they were not getting the support of the record industry.

--

But can you support your initial assertion? (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160181)

I don't think that splitting the network in two is really a great way to achieve scalability, in fact, it is more accurately described as a way to deal with a lack of scalability.

I would certainly be interested to hear why you think that it is more anonymous and more scalable than Freenet? Nothing I can see supports your claim.

--

Er - no (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160182)

Firstly - on a more general point, all of those "XXX for Dummies" books could be interpreted as being insulting, but most people recognise them for the tongue-in-cheek joke they are, which explains their incredible popularity.

Having said that, the usage guide you point to isn't actually the usage guide at all, the actual usage guide you are thinking of is at http://freenetproject.org/quickguide/ [freenetproject.org] and has been for months, and AFAIK there are no references to "fools" anywhere - so I really don't understand what you are talking about.

--

Re:How's this going to work ... (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160183)

It was turned down by Ian because he thought it was a non-issue.
This wasn't the main reason, the main reason is that Freenet thrives on making new connections, the architecture simply won't work if it can't do this. The 0.4 Freenet node will actually incorporate functionality which achieves the same thing, but without preventing the formation of new connections.

--

But groups inhibit scalability (2)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160184)

From your explanation, it sounds like messages are only broadcast within groups. What if you want to communicate with someone not in your group?

--

Yup, same guy (3)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160185)

Oskar does live in Sweden, and his father is a diplomat.

--

Oh come on! (3)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160186)

Is there anyone who has ever achieved anything who you couldn't accuse of self-promotion? Perhaps you would prefer a world where nobody tried to make anything better lest they be accused of having an inflated ego.

--

It is a voluntary effort (5)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160187)

This is a voluntary project paid for by donations. I don't know how much voluntary work you have done, but the general idea is that you are paid whatever you need to survive, and not much more. Oskar is willing to work for so little because he believes in the project, not because he wants to get rich.

--

Probably not (5)

Sanity (1431) | more than 13 years ago | (#160188)

There is an upcoming North Kentucky Law Journal article which closely examines potential legal attacks on various P2P architectures. The conclusion for Freenet was that it is certainly possible to curtail use of the system, perhaps by shutting down the Internet, but it is unlikely that it would be politically realistic.

Also note that some ISPs, including Earthlink, are refusing to cave to pressure from these self-appointed IP police. In fact, many of these companies are going out of business.

--

Legitimate uses of Freenet... (2)

Zagadka (6641) | more than 13 years ago | (#160190)

Are there any? I see a lot of talk about freedom of speech, but when you look at what the software actually does, it looks like it's really just designed to help people trade warez anonymously. And no, this isn't flamebait. I want to know what genuinely legitimate uses Freenet has.

Re:The End of Intellectual Property? Cool! (2)

Sethb (9355) | more than 13 years ago | (#160191)

I sent in my $10, just hoping others will do the same...

If everyone posts an "I donated $xx" amount message, we can raise money for them at the same time as we break the previous Slashdot postings record. :)
---

Re:Free Advertising! (5)

Sethb (9355) | more than 13 years ago | (#160192)

Wow, I can't believe the amount of cynicism already appearing in this story. I just chipped in $10 towards the project because I'd like to see it be developed further.

That's what separates the people who use Linux because it's free (as in beer) from the people who believe in free (as in speech) software, and are willing to fund further development of it.

Sure, ten bucks isn't a lot, it's about two lunches for me, but hopefully if more Slashdotters contribute a few bucks, they can come out with better FreeNet servers & clients.
---

Re:Probably not (1)

ethereal (13958) | more than 13 years ago | (#160193)

A quibble: they're not really self-appointed, they're getting paid by the RIAA, MPAA, etc. Apparently not enough, though, if they're going out of business. It's not like there aren't enough IP violations out there to keep them going :)

Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

Re:a quibble to your quibble (1)

ethereal (13958) | more than 13 years ago | (#160194)

Huh, I stand corrected. I wonder on what basis they're going after people if they don't have the backing of the original copyright holder? I mean, it's not like I could just start suing people for trading mp3s, could I?

Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

Zico (14255) | more than 13 years ago | (#160195)

Yeah, but it's one thing to code in your free time and not get paid much, or even not at all. But when you're taking it as a full time job? I mean, this puts him below the poverty limit, at least in the U.S. I don't see a whole lot of incentive in taking a full-time job that will still leave me eligible for welfare.


Cheers,

He's working full-time on this? (3)

Zico (14255) | more than 13 years ago | (#160196)

They're only paying him $2500 total for two months full-time work? That's just sad. Doesn't exactly make me want to sign up for a open source project anytime soon.


Cheers,

Re:Not the same thing, and doesn't look scalable (1)

mTor (18585) | more than 13 years ago | (#160197)

Read it again... I just finished reading the whole thing and it does appear scaleable. They split it only when it reaches a certain limit. Mixmaster thing is a minor part IMHO (I'm no expert on either though). They seem to be handling DOS attack stuff by removing the maliscious nodes (I saw that near the end).

Re:But can you support your initial assertion? (1)

mTor (18585) | more than 13 years ago | (#160198)

Well.. you're *the* expert on Freenet so I shall not even try to contest your claims on Freenet :)

From what I've understoon about Cryptobox, I think that it is extremely scalable since the bulk of message passing occurs in small groups. The rest of the messages are 'administartive' and they are exchanged with other clusters. Since it doesn't really matter what the degree of the nodes inside a cluster is (due to the optimizations) they can afford more bandwidth. Also, since they keep cells fairly small (60 nodes in each?) it doesn't really matter how big the whole network is (it can be hundreds of millions of nodes). Finding nodes with Janus is smart.. I never thought of that.

More anonymous since it is totally immune to MITM attack - beyond suspicion (from my memory, Freenet is not). An observer would need millenia to figure out which messages are real and which are fake and can't even figure out whether a node is sending anything useful since it is sending messages all the time anyway.

Anyway, I'm a PhD candidate in crypto and I'm not an expert on networking.

PS: They do mention dining cryptographers but decided against it... my guess is because they have a way to statistically thwart correlation.. I don't know for sure but I will definitely mail them and see whether they will tell me how they do it.

Re:Not the same thing, and doesn't look scalable (1)

mTor (18585) | more than 13 years ago | (#160199)

They're only broadcasting within a certain radius; just like Gnutella does searches, for example. When you don't have routing (and no addressing/labeling for that matter!).... this is the only choice.

You can't compare USENET/Internet with anonymous nets (that's why they are anon in the first place)... it's a whole other ballgame.

Re:FreeNet (or other OSS) Project Critical Mass? (1)

mTor (18585) | more than 13 years ago | (#160200)

First interview should also be on that list... maybe even first VC offer.

Better than Freenet (2)

mTor (18585) | more than 13 years ago | (#160201)

I checked Infoanarchy.org's [infoanarchy.org] queue this morning and this news story [infoanarchy.org] is extremely interesting. Check the sourceforge page here [sourceforge.net] .

After reading the overview of that project, it looks much safer and more anonymous than Freenet (it probably even scales better too).

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

Ledge (24267) | more than 13 years ago | (#160207)

Cost of living isn't horrible in Canada?!?!?!
Maybe if you don't add up all of the taxes paid.

Re:Where's the Web Cam? (1)

AGL (33453) | more than 13 years ago | (#160213)

Oskar was at the O'Reilly P2P conference in San Fran this year. If you went you couldn't have missed him

> pets

A dog I think

> cars

I shouldn't think so

> current contents of his refrigerator

Rumored to be a good cook

> Do they have him hooked up to record vital statistics?

!

AGL

Re:honey.... (1)

e-gold (36755) | more than 13 years ago | (#160214)

I've offered them something else that's yellow...
JMR

Re:The End of Intellectual Property? Cool! (1)

mvc (38569) | more than 13 years ago | (#160215)

All property laws are unnatural. For that matter, all laws are unnatural.

--Moss

This is a .sig.
Now there are two of them.

uprizer (2)

akb (39826) | more than 13 years ago | (#160216)

oh?

Freenet coordinator Ian Clarke's side venture Uprizer says different. He scored
$4mil [newsbytes.com] in April.

Uprizer looks like its trying to compete in the CDN realm. The idea is a good one, Freenet has a number of unknowns in it, ie content expiration, that wouldn't make it suitable for certain business applications. It probably trades off some of Freenet's anonymity requirements for certainity. Similar to the idea of businesses not using the Internet for applications that need guarenteed data rates, they don't use the commodity Internet they buy a dedicated circuit.

Re:Beaujolais for Donations! (1)

MisterBad (40316) | more than 13 years ago | (#160217)

Well, Oskar took the deal. He probably would have done the work for free, but this arrangement keeps someone from snatching him up before 0.4 comes out.

Frankly, I wouldn't work for $2500 either. But then again, I'm not anywhere near as nutso as Oskar is.

Re:How's this going to work ... (1)

MisterBad (40316) | more than 13 years ago | (#160218)

Well, a Freenet node is really a client that happens to be kind of generous with disk space and bandwidth to other clients.

It doesn't really act like, say, a Web server.

Re:Build it, and they will come? (2)

MisterBad (40316) | more than 13 years ago | (#160219)

Hey, when Freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have Freedom. And if that's the case, make me an outlaw, man!

Seriously, it knocks me out when people say stuff like this. If free speech and freedom of the press can be outlawed, then don't we have ALL THE MORE NEED for an alternative publishing system? If you're this concerned, then you need to get Freenet going DAMN QUICK, man.

As to the illegality: there are a number of ways to make Freenet run "under the radar," such as using steganography to camouflage Freenet protocol messages as, say, mail messages, or HTTP pr0n downloads, or anything else.

That's not on the Freenet development roadmap for a while, but it's definitely something that's been suggested.

Re:Is Freenet a Lost Cause? (3)

MisterBad (40316) | more than 13 years ago | (#160220)

So, I'm not going to say that that's not a plausible scenario. But doesn't that mean that people who are sympathetic with information freedom should be INSTALLING and USING Freenet right now?

Freenet has become a fine platform for Web publishing, for example. If you've got a Web site (ANY Website -- even pictures of your cat) you should REALLY REALLY read the Website publishing HOWTO [freenetproject.org] . It gives step-by-step instructions on how to put your site into Freenet.

Remember, back in the day, the World Wide Web and other Internet services had the same outlaw reputation that peer-to-peer systems like Freenet have right now. It was only because many "ordinary" people put their "ordinary" content on the Web that it became an acceptable, in fact indispensible, computing platform.

We can do that with Freenet, if we work at it. But it takes thousands of individual efforts to make it happen. If you think there's a potential for a bad future for Freenet, you need to start helping, rather than resigning yourself to Yet More Totalitarian Bullshit.

Re:The OS Warz? (3)

MisterBad (40316) | more than 13 years ago | (#160221)

So, "Freenet for Fools" was written by a Windows user. I think it was originally "Freenet for D*mmies," but because of trademark issues the name was changed.

Beaujolais for Donations! (5)

MisterBad (40316) | more than 13 years ago | (#160222)

So, as a member of the Freenet development group and a Freenet publisher (check out Pigdog Journal on Freenet, eh? get my keys propagated!), I have to say that I really applaud this move.

I don't know if the future of Free Software projects is really in donation-based organizations like Freenet, but it seems like it gives a nice "push" to projects that are in high-velocity development phases.

I especially think that the hiring of an employee at non-profit wages is a great way to spend the donation money. We all want a better, faster, stronger, more anonymous, less attackable Freenet, and I think this will really help. Not to mention that Oskar is a pretty OK programmer, despite being an irascible grouch. B-)

As per the low wages: I think the wages are just right, actually. They're enough that we keep Oskar on a leash for a few months, but they're not enough that the rest of the developers get jealous and slack off from working.

One more thing: people interested in anonymity should check out EOF [sourceforge.net] , a collection of applications like mail, news, apt (!!), etc. that work over Freenet. Good shit.

Re:Too slow (2)

jasha (42162) | more than 13 years ago | (#160223)

You mean, like freegle [freegle.com] ?

Where's the Web Cam? (4)

jazman_777 (44742) | more than 13 years ago | (#160224)

I want to see this guy working on The Revolution. Is there a bio for him? Do they have a "current life status" describing his computer hardware at home, any pets, cars, friends, and the current contents of his refrigerator? Do they have him hooked up to record vital statistics? I hope they make some pretty charts out of them.
--

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

divec (48748) | more than 13 years ago | (#160225)

But when you're taking it as a full time job? I mean, this puts him below the poverty limit, at least in the U.S. I don't see a whole lot of incentive in taking a full-time job that will still leave me eligible for welfare.
I don't know what the cost of living's like in his area, but here a single person could live on that much quite happily. It would be trickier if you had to support a family; but I presume that's not his situation.

Oskar's first day at work (2)

E1ven (50485) | more than 13 years ago | (#160226)

From the Freenet devl mailing list this morning- I would just like to note that my schoolterm has ended now, so I am starting my fulltime work on Freenet as of today. I plan to work pretty much non-stop until the fall term begins, which is on the 27th of August, making my employment a convenient 2½ months. I would just like to assure everybody that I am taking this opportunity very seriously, and I will work absolutely as hard as I would under ordinary employment conditions (harder actually, since I don't believe in stuff like sleep and weekends when hacking on Freenet). My first priority will be getting back in the loop with Tavin's work on the experimental branch, and getting the remaining necessary features (basically announcement) in and working as soon as possible. After that I will try to balance my time between enhancing and debugging the 0.4 for code for public usability together with the other 0.4 coders and experimenting on the routing and caching modifications that have been discussed here lately. Plans, like always, are subject to revision though. -- 'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?' 'Here,' Montag touched his head. 'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded. Oskar Sandberg oskar@freenetproject.org
--

This message brought to you by Colin Davis

Re:Too slow (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 13 years ago | (#160227)

Oh, you mean like http does?

Re:The End of Intellectual Property? Cool! (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 13 years ago | (#160228)

you mean like those crazy guys over at gnutella?

Re:back to fidonet (1)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 13 years ago | (#160229)

In Australia the national telephone company Telstra planned to detect data calls and charge outragous per minute rates. This would have effectively cripled fidonet. Thankfully someone managed to talk them out of it.

The End of Intellectual Property? Cool! (3)

Louis Savain (65843) | more than 13 years ago | (#160233)

Freenet is a large-scale peer-to-peer network which pools the power of member computers around the world to create a massive virtual information store open to anyone to freely publish or view information of all kinds.

That would really be cool if they can pull it off. Every Slashdot user and anonymous coward should immediately write a check to those people. May the RIAA and other freedom destroyers tremble in fear! May they have horrible visions of empty bank accounts and past due legal bills! May their power to restrict the freedom of others dwindle exponentially! Go Freenet!

IP laws are unnatural. They can only be enforced with the use of powerful police states. Demand liberty! Nothing less!

Paypal. (3)

supabeast! (84658) | more than 13 years ago | (#160237)

Stuff like this is why I love PayPal. A few bucks here and there, takes about ten seconds to actually do the transaction. Very cool. Hopefully more Open Source/Free Software projects can use such a model to fund full time developers.

Depends on where you live (2)

Greyfox (87712) | more than 13 years ago | (#160239)

I worked with some folks from Romania a while back. $1000 a month there is about five times the national average salary there and if you pay them in dollars it goes a lot farther since inflation runs in the 20+% range. In a global economy, you can stretch you dollar a lot farther.

What is Freenet? (1)

ahde (95143) | more than 13 years ago | (#160242)

All i can tell from looking at their site is that it is a webpage for publishing specific political writings and sensational quasi-journalism like Peter (Spycatcher) Wright's and David Shayler's revelations about MI5 that hopes to one day have their own browser.

back to fidonet (1)

Roadmaster (96317) | more than 13 years ago | (#160243)

worldwide information exchange was possible before the internet boom. Let's go back to a fidonet or uucp-based scheme. This can't be stopped, short of banning modems everywhere :)

Re:Probably not (1)

Steeltoe (98226) | more than 13 years ago | (#160245)

Just like the ol' white west, ain't it? IP-Bounty hunters. I'd laugh my head off, if it weren't serious.

- Steeltoe

Re:Free as in FIRE! speech (1)

Steeltoe (98226) | more than 13 years ago | (#160246)

I would add that people should also be more mature about information gathered from Freenet. As the knowledge contained within may be blatantly false. So dumbing it down too much could be considered a "bad" thing, therefore it's important to educate people how to treat such information (most people will probably figure this out in short amount of time though ;).

- Steeltoe

Re:Beaujolais for Donations! (1)

Steeltoe (98226) | more than 13 years ago | (#160247)

Obviously he ain't doing it for the money, but it's nice to have _some_ income and this is perhaps just the beginning.. We'll see how it goes, won't we?

- Steeltoe

Re:He's working full-time on this? (2)

Arctic Fox (105204) | more than 13 years ago | (#160249)

So that's why you work for Loki? ;)

Re:Is Freenet a Lost Cause? (5)

Mr. Sketch (111112) | more than 13 years ago | (#160251)

I suppose all those people using PGP (or GnuPG) must have "bad" things in them. I suppose any sort of encryption must be used for "bad" things now that you mention it.

The fact is that the internet was not designed for privacy and it is only natural that people will want their privacy. I don't have curtins on my windows because I have methlab or something, I just don't want people to be able to look in my house all the time. FreeNet and other encrypted/private communication mechanisms are just a natural extension of the internet: people want to communicate instantly and have instant access to information, but sometimes they want it to be private.

How's this going to work ... (2)

paranoic (126081) | more than 13 years ago | (#160255)

when most isp's/cable/dsl providers prohibit you from running servers?

Too slow (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 13 years ago | (#160256)

I have great hopes for Freenet's future, but the current implementation is agonisingly slow and difficult to find anything with (unless you have a link to it). The project really needs to implement a decent search protocol.

Re:The OS Warz? (1)

Agthorr (135998) | more than 13 years ago | (#160260)

Perhaps you should take into consideration the wildly successful "For Dummies" series of books?

-- Agthorr

Pay by check (2)

Agthorr (135998) | more than 13 years ago | (#160261)

If you're going to make a donation, pay by check if possible. Paypal charges a fee [paypal.com] for receiving money via credit card. Those few dollars here and there add up when you're operating on a shoe-string budget.

Of course, it's much better to donate by credit card, than to not donate at all. :>

Also, please note that your contributions are tax-deductible (at least in the USA).

-- Agthorr

Re:Important step (1)

Drone-X (148724) | more than 13 years ago | (#160267)

I have no idea what "TANSTAAFL" stands for.
HELP ME
I had to look it up myself but it's in the Jargon File [tuxedo.org] .

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

-=OmegaMan=- (151970) | more than 13 years ago | (#160268)

I hear the Crusades didn't pay to well either, and the benefits were shit.

Before this gets modded down as off-topic, lets draw some parallels, mkay? :)

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

-=OmegaMan=- (151970) | more than 13 years ago | (#160269)

I see an incentive...

You'll still be eligible for welfare! *g*

Re:How's this going to work ... (3)

Skuto (171945) | more than 13 years ago | (#160271)

>when most isp's/cable/dsl providers prohibit you
>from running servers?

Good point. There was serious discussion some time
ago on the mailinglist about techniques to allow
setting a node to only accept connections from
trusted nodes. That way it would be impossible
for someone to detect that you were running a
freenet node from the outside, while you still
had full access to the network and your node
could be used for storage.

It was turned down by Ian because he thought it
was a non-issue.

The argument used was that once Freenet becomes
popular enough there is no reason why running
a Freenet node means that you are doing something
suspicious. And Freenet grows easier with fully
operative nodes than with those 'stealth' nodes.
(at least that's what I remember from the discussion)

The problem of course is, that Freenet will never
become popular if ISP's start shutting the servers
down.

Ian's reply to this was:

'It is my experience that when users demand
P2P and Freenet access all ISP's will bend
over backwards to give it to them'

And I think he may be right about that. My own
ISP interpreted the 'server' clause in a way
that you were free to use napster as long as
you set the number of allowed incoming connections
to zero (effectively disabling the server). That
way people cannot upload from you, which is what
was actually illegal about Napster (downloading
is fine as you might own the CD yourself)

The ISP WANTS to offer Napster to people. They
offer broanband services so Napster is a good
reason to switch over from PPP. So they make
sure the customer CAN have Napster.

--
GCP

Re:Better than Freenet (1)

ahem (174666) | more than 13 years ago | (#160272)

It's easier to see the article [infoanarchy.org] if the 'moderator' variable isn't set.

cheers.

The pioneers? (1)

felipeal (177452) | more than 13 years ago | (#160274)

That is a good initiative, but they are certainly not the first one to have it.
Doesn't 2600 use donations to pay their lawyers and legal fees?
What about FSF?

Re:The OS Warz? (1)

Caraig (186934) | more than 13 years ago | (#160275)

So, "Freenet for Fools" was written by a Windows user. I think it was originally "Freenet for D*mmies," but because of trademark issues the name was changed.

If that's the case, I'll mitigate my comments, and note that the person who wrote that should consider that a large majority of users out there who might use Freenet are Windows users, and might not get the subtlity of the humor. =)

---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World

Re:Er - no (1)

Caraig (186934) | more than 13 years ago | (#160276)

Having said that, the usage guide you point to isn't actually the usage guide at all, the actual usage guide you are thinking of is at http://freenetproject.org/quickguide/ and has been for months, and AFAIK there are no references to "fools" anywhere - so I really don't understand what you are talking about.

The link to the /freenet4fools directory was off of their downloads page, and it was being listed as the manual for the Windows version. It may very well be a link they missed to the "real" Windows manual.

As for the name of the book being a takeoff on the "for Dummies" books, I'll buy that; it just seems that 'Fool' is harsher than 'Dummy.' At this point, it's semantics and my personal opinion, so I'll conceed the point. =)

---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World

Re:The OS Warz? (1)

Caraig (186934) | more than 13 years ago | (#160277)

Calling people fools for not believing in your cause is protected speech.
True. Better than burning them at the stake. *rimshot* =)
Asking the creators to compromise their ideals to gain users is entirely your right; just don't expect them to listen. Fool. :P

Ouch. ;) Seriously, a good point. (Glad I worded it the way I had.) No, I can't seriously expect them to jump up and do what I say; Lordy, I would HOPE they wouldn't do that! =)

If it's their ideals that anyone who uses Winders is a fool, well, I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the Internet. =) I was just thinking that, maybe, they would want to get the word out, to get as many Freenet nodes out there, irrelevant of OS, and that if that was the case, then they might not want to alienate some not-as-humor-inclined. =)

---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World

Re:Free as in FIRE! speech (1)

Caraig (186934) | more than 13 years ago | (#160278)

We absolutely need that kind too.

by my comment, I was referring to the old SCOTUS ruling about (to paraphrase) "the right to free speech ends at shouting 'fire!' in a crowded movie theater."

Now, shouting 'FIRE!' when there IS a fire sounds to me like a Pretty Good Idea. =) Shouting 'FIRE!' just to panic people is... well, just what is it? Fraud comes to mind, but it doesn't seem like a 'right' of any sort.

---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World

The OS Warz? (5)

Caraig (186934) | more than 13 years ago | (#160279)

Freenet is a darn good thing, and something we should all support in whatever ways we can. We MUST preserve free speech (not neccessarilly free-as-in-'FIRE!' speech, of course) on the net, if nothing else, and Freenet garauntees it.

I would like to entreat the guiding hands behind Freenet, however, to consider the greater audience out there. Yes, the project is working with Open Source tools, and that's a good thing! However, it must be accessable to everyone. They can't afford to alienate any potential users of Freenet. For that reason, calling the directory that the Windows usage guide [freenetproject.org] in, 'Freenet for Fools,' could be considered insulting to Windows users.

I know, this is /., where anyone who relies entirely on a Windows machine is a chump, and just SO needs flaming change to get on the clue bus, hurled at him at supercavitating speeds. Come on, let's think about this maturely. I hate Microsoft as much as any other person who's had to clean up after BSODs (sometimes I can see a blue residue on the screen after rebooting...) but MS machines are Out There, and people will be using them.

Freenet essentially calling a fair amount of their user base 'fools' to their face will just turn those users away. "Oh, more elitist Linux users," they'll sigh. "If I join Freenet I'll just be exposed to more of that elitist crap. Screw it, I'm not putting up with that." And one more potential Freenet node disappears.

Good riddance to bad rubbish? You miss the point of Freenet. Freenet is Free Speech without harrassment. Free Speech without fear of being taken down by a government. Free Speech without fear of being dragged into a court. (And believe me, there are some courts in this world where you won't even have the courtesy of being ordered to bend over a barrel; a bullet in the back of the head is far more likely.)

Freenet should not involved in the OS warz. Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion, but remember, this is coming from a grey-matta-flambe helpdesk drudge. That's all I have to say. =)

---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World

Re:FreeNet (or other OSS) Project Critical Mass? (2)

sulli (195030) | more than 13 years ago | (#160280)

Don't forget:

  • ipo
  • bankruptcy

Free as in FIRE! speech (2)

sulli (195030) | more than 13 years ago | (#160281)

We absolutely need that kind too. Sometimes there is a fire, and you need to warn people! By comparison, Freenet needs to support a very broad range of speech, even stuff that the powers that be (e.g. political speech in China) find "patently offensive."

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

OverCode@work (196386) | more than 13 years ago | (#160282)

Sure thing, and sometimes it's even justified. If you write good code that someone else finds useful, you SHOULD be proud of it, and it should make you want to write more.

-John

Re:He's working full-time on this? (3)

OverCode@work (196386) | more than 13 years ago | (#160285)

Open source (excuse me, FREE SOFTWARE) programmers don't do it for the money. If you're in it for the money, apply to Microsoft and leave us alone. Free software is about the love of the art, and helping other people with your skills. That may sound cheesy, but it's true, and I think it's damn honorable.

-John

Re:Where's the Web Cam? (2)

sv0f (197289) | more than 13 years ago | (#160286)

I want to see this guy working on The Revolution. Is there a bio for him? Do they have a "current life status" [...]? Do they have him hooked up to record vital statistics?

His name is Nasubi [http] . He seems like a likable if odd fellow.

Re:FreeNet (or other OSS) Project Critical Mass? (5)

cbowland (205263) | more than 13 years ago | (#160287)

Other possible measures:
  • first lawsuit
  • first mention on slashdot
  • first time mom asks about it
  • first time RMS says the proper name is GNU/what-ever-the-project-name-is
  • first FUD attack by large proprietary vendor

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.

Re:Its better than that... (1)

DarkEdgeX (212110) | more than 13 years ago | (#160292)

It is just the Slashdot effect-- I went to the link for donating right when this story was first posted and the last few donations went back a month in time (I believe), with the last one viewable being for $1000 from an Anonymous donation (since it's automatic, I assume this was manually entered into the donations listing).

There had been no donations today (June 11th). It's really great to see so many people donating though (myself included), and it'll hopefully help them if/when they get into any legal troubles. Plus, they might get to add more developers if things keep going the way they have. =)

honey.... (2)

unformed (225214) | more than 13 years ago | (#160294)

is another very good way to sweeten the pot.

Then again, I think I'm talking about a differenct pot...;)

FreeNet (or other OSS) Project Critical Mass? (3)

hillct (230132) | more than 13 years ago | (#160295)

Is this the measure of critical mass for an OSS Project? When they hire their first employee, or is there some other more appropriate measure?

--CTH

---

Re:The End of Intellectual Property? Cool! (1)

bmongar (230600) | more than 13 years ago | (#160296)

all laws are unnatural.

Even the laws of Physics?

Re:Beaujolais for Donations! (1)

NineNine (235196) | more than 13 years ago | (#160297)

I think the wages are just right, actually

Didn't I read $2500 for 2 months? That's about $7.81/hour. That's not going to encourage anybody to do anything, really. If I were earning $7.81/hour, I'd spend about 15 minutes a day working on the project, and 7-8 hours working on my own stuff.

Re:It is a voluntary effort (1)

NineNine (235196) | more than 13 years ago | (#160298)

you are paid whatever you need to survive

YOU could survive on $2500 for 2 months? I know I couldn't.

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

nirvdrum (240842) | more than 13 years ago | (#160300)

There's something to be said for humbleness.

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

nirvdrum (240842) | more than 13 years ago | (#160301)

When you quit your job and then do free software for a living, then you'll earn the right to make such a bold statement. You can't feed a family off valor.

Re:He's working full-time on this? (1)

ardiri (245358) | more than 13 years ago | (#160302)

your obviously not living in Sweden. want to know where swedish peoples taxes go (and how much they pay?) http://www.swetax.com [swetax.com] :) maybe that budget is good for a student :) 25000 Sek ($2500 US) wont get you anywhere.. especially when 70% goes to taxes..

Re:Free Advertising! (2)

Lazarus Short (248042) | more than 13 years ago | (#160303)

Did you read the announcement? He's making $2500 for a summer's worth of work. I made more than that the summer after I graduated from high school!

Forgive me if I don't see a Ferarri in short term future.

--

Re:He's working full-time on this? (2)

baptiste (256004) | more than 13 years ago | (#160305)

Well, perhaps not - but given that many OSS developers code hours ad hours each day for free, anything is betetr than nothing. It is a start!

Time to restart my Freenet node :)

Re:Oh come on! (1)

geomcbay (263540) | more than 13 years ago | (#160307)

I'm not making judgements one way or another. There's a lot to be said for ego and the quest for attention. I believe it helps progress (but not quite to the ends-justify-the-means extent that an objectivist does).

I was simply pointing out that there are reasons other than "love of the code", etc, that people write OS software.

Re:He's working full-time on this? (5)

geomcbay (263540) | more than 13 years ago | (#160309)

Don't forget ego and self-promotion. If you don't think those play a big part for many Open Source developers you are deluding yourself.

Re:Too slow (1)

foogod (264285) | more than 13 years ago | (#160310)

...and difficult to find anything...

difficult??!?! it is impossible.

From the website: No search mechanism has yet been implemented. One of the design goals was to make it impossible to locate the exact place where any piece of information is stored.

Freenet is a great idea, and I will continue to assist in beta and dev work. But people who think that this is the next napster are sadly mistaken.

Think outside the box, and you then have Freenet. Stay where it is safe, and you have communism.

- foogod

Re:Not the same thing, and doesn't look scalable (1)

chuqui (264912) | more than 13 years ago | (#160311)

> Secondly, the fact that every message seems to be broadcasted to every peer, forcing them to periodically split the network, really isn't a very scalable approach at all.

Hasn't anyone learned from USENET? Sigh. Teh concept of sending every byte to every computer everywhere in case anyone anywhere might want that byte is stupid. USENET's proven just how much work and resources it takes to scale that.

Heck -- it's like going on vacation, but having the entire house shipped where you're going, just in case you need an extra pair of blue socks on the trip.

Oskar Sandberg?? (2)

Salieri (308060) | more than 13 years ago | (#160313)

I was best friends with an Oskar Sandberg all through elementary school, before he went back to Sweden (his father's a diplomat).

I've only seen him once since, on a trip to Scandinavia.

Either a small world or a very common name (though switchboard comes up empty). Oscar: If "Red Diamond" means anything to you, email me!

--------------------------------

Is Freenet a Lost Cause? (5)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 13 years ago | (#160315)

There are recent news reports that the IP enforcers are going after individuals who host Gnutella servers by putting pressure on their ISPs to disconnect them.

How long before they hire agents to do traffic analysis on the net looking for heavy Freenet usage. Even though they don't know what's being moved, it must be "bad", or they wouldn't be trying to hide it.

They'll point this out to the users' ISPs, who would in turn threaten to disconnect them. A few well-publicized incidents could prevent Freenet from ever reaching critical mass. So much for the free information utopia.

RIAA... (1)

famazza (398147) | more than 13 years ago | (#160316)

How long will take until RIAA sues Freenet to?

And the best of it. How long will take until we have a contingent plan in case RIAA sues Freenet?


Don't worry. I'm too useless [to|every]day

Re:Build it, and they will come? (1)

blang (450736) | more than 13 years ago | (#160319)

Hey, when Freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have Freedom. And if that's the case, make me an outlaw, man!

I hear you and couldn't agree more. And I agree that we will come up with methods to circumvent the freedom squashers. They won't be able to easily shut down the traffic, but they would still be able to infiltrate the networks, and come knocking on your doors.

Build it, and they will come? (2)

blang (450736) | more than 13 years ago | (#160320)

All the trolls and the goat* bunch. Not to mention the other mysterious elements around here. Oh, and as soon as congress gets a whiff of this, it'll be a federal crime to run freenet software. And it will be fun to see what a U.S court will come up with when dealing with freenet. If nothing else, it'll be good for a slashdot story.

What's the interface? (1)

Tini Kanooo (454672) | more than 13 years ago | (#160321)

This kind of information needs to be disseminated by means that are accessible by laptops, pdas, cellphones, toasters, etc.

Wearable computing for example needs an interface for information retrieval that can be acessed by multiple means. A voice request "compute my portfolio value if I invest $5000 in IBM in 1 hour" would need a complex search algorithm designed to weave multiple threads of information.

Is this the intent?

-TK

Its better than that... (1)

jem.cc (454877) | more than 13 years ago | (#160322)

Seth Bokelman $10.00 Mon, 11 Jun 2001
Brent Eubanks $10.00 Mon, 11 Jun 2001
ProZ.com $25.00 Mon, 11 Jun 2001
Jeffrey Seifert $10.00 Mon, 11 Jun 2001
Matthew Franklin $100.00 Mon, 11 Jun 2001

Of course this might just be the slashdot effect showing up in their donations, but just from the ten values posted so far we've got a >$50/day average...

Re:Free Advertising! (2)

deathcow (455995) | more than 13 years ago | (#160323)

> > How long till his living expenses include a Ferarri? >

You'll have to ask Phillip GreenspIn from ArsDigita...

Re:Important step (1)

adalger (458844) | more than 13 years ago | (#160324)

TANSTAAFL

The fact that donations can make this happen demonstrates that the people who want a Net badly enough will pay for it, allowing hundreds of times more people to use it for Free. This is going to be the new textbook example of the free-rider problem.

Re:The pioneers? (1)

powernoia (459250) | more than 13 years ago | (#160326)

First time used by someone who isn't already being sued.
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