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China Criticizes US For Making Weapon Plans Steal-able, Alleges Attacks From US

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the determining-intent dept.

China 209

Etherwalk writes "Huang Chengqing, China's top internet security official, alleged that cyberattacks on China from people in the U.S. are as serious as those from China on the U.S. 'We have mountains of data, if we wanted to accuse the U.S., but it's not helpful in solving the problem.' Huang, however, does not necessarily attribute them to the U.S. government just because they came from U.S. soil, and he thinks Washington should extend the same courtesy. 'They advocated cases that they never let us know about. Some cases can be addressed if they had talked to us, why not let us know? It is not a constructive train of thought to solve problems.' In response to the recent theft of U.S. military designs, he replied with an observation whose obviousness is worthy of Captain Hammer: 'Even following the general principle of secret-keeping, it should not have been linked to the Internet.'" A few experts think China's more cooperative attitude has come about precisely because the U.S. government has gone public with hacking allegations.

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209 comments

Oh FFS (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916363)

"This is what I was wearing when China stole my weapons schematics. Tell me I asked for it."

Fuck off with your victim blaming, China. Pricks.

Re:Oh FFS (1, Troll)

hawguy (1600213) | about a year ago | (#43916425)

"This is what I was wearing when China stole my weapons schematics. Tell me I asked for it."

Fuck off with your victim blaming, China. Pricks.

Sometimes blaming the victim is warranted. If I park my Ferrari in a bad part of town with the windows open and a buck full of cash on the front seat, I don't have much room to complain when someone steals the cash (and maybe the car).

Likewise, if I have top secret military blueprints that not even an average US citizen is allowed to view, if I don't lock up the data securely, then I really shouldn't whine when someone steals it. I knew the data was valuable, I knew people would want to steal it, so I should have locked it up more securely and the data certainly shouldn't have been available through the internet. Why wasn't the data air-gapped away from the public internet?

Re:Oh FFS (2)

nhat11 (1608159) | about a year ago | (#43916519)

Still doesn't justify stealing it.

Re:Oh FFS (2)

hawguy (1600213) | about a year ago | (#43916703)

Still doesn't justify stealing it.

Entire divisions of intelligence agencies are devoted to stealing secrets from other countries (including "friendly" countries and allies). If the data was readily available, they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they ignored it.

Or are you advocating disbanding all foreign intelligence agencies because no one should be "stealing" any data that's not been made public through official channels?

Re:Oh FFS (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917403)

Entire divisions of intelligence agencies are devoted to stealing secrets from other countries (including "friendly" countries and allies). If the data was readily available, they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they ignored it.

Very true. However they're not supposed to get caught doing it. That's historically been considered a casus belli.

Re:Oh FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916771)

Nobody is justifying the theft of the cash but maybe some victim-blaming can be justified too, if the victim is a fucking moron.

However, when it comes to governmental secrets and espionage games all normal ethics are thrown out the window. The Chinese intelligence agency has to justify their expenditure of taxpayer funds somehow... And wouldn't you be outraged if you found out that our agencies haven't stolen any Chinese secrets? What is right and wrong with ordinary crime is trivial compared with the espionage game where it's justifiable for all nations to have intelligence agencies even though those agencies most likely break the laws of other nations on a regular basis.

Re:Oh FFS (4, Insightful)

LordLimecat (1103839) | about a year ago | (#43916857)

The world is complex enough that multiple people can be at fault. If the Ferrari gets broken into, you are at fault for being naieve and foolish, and the thief is at fault for being a leech on society.

Who gets the blame? Both of them. Is the thief the bigger part of the problem? Sure he is, and the largest portion of the blame goes to him. But you still are responsible insofar as your foolishness left you wide open to being victimized and creating an opportunity for a crime that any reasonable individual could have predicted.

Re:Oh FFS (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916973)

Still doesn't justify stealing it.

He didn't say a thing about justification. Jesus h Christ man, did you not even read what the hell he said?

Re:Oh FFS (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916701)

China makes as much sense as a vial liberal like the ones who hang out trolling on here (yes that's 99% of you). The US needs to man up and stop letting our enemies take our errr I meant "steal" our weapons.

Re:Oh FFS (3, Insightful)

naoursla (99850) | about a year ago | (#43916719)

You have lots of room to complain. If you take away the expectation to complain it give criminals an excuse to commit the crime.

If you saw a Ferrari parked somewhere with a bunch of cash in the front seat, would YOU feel okay stealing it or the car? I would hope not. Stealing is wrong regardless of how easy it is. Why do you give others a pass for something you wouldn't do?

Re:Oh FFS (2)

NatasRevol (731260) | about a year ago | (#43916911)

You can complain all you want.

It's still fucking stupid to park the car there.

Someone is going to steal the car. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it.

Re:Oh FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917043)

Depends on the neighborhood...

Re:Oh FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917263)

They obviously have far too much cash, if they leave it lying about like that. Perhaps they will learn not to keep cash in their front seat.

What if the cash was used to buy bread for my starving family? not so easy of a choice now is it.

Re:Oh FFS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917271)

For added fun replace the theft of state secrets with rape and see how many of these arguments you're still unashamed of.

China is America (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916379)

And America is China

However, the bankers and elite European families who rule both of these countries love to stir the shit to propagate war/conflict for profit.

You are a slave to these bankers who create these conflicts. Keep playing their propaganda game and getting fucked in your butthole like good sheeple :)

Re:China is America (0)

spacepimp (664856) | about a year ago | (#43916443)

You need to lay off the Alex Jones show for a bit. Or is your next anonymous post going to tell us how these elite families are actually Satanic lizard demons? Are you going to say that all hacking has been done by bankers and "Elite European" families to make it seem like a plausible scenario so they could later ignite a profitable cold war between the two nations?

Re:China is America (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916507)

Satanic Lizard Demons like Joel Osteen, or some other kind?

relevant captcha #78: smeared

Re:China is America (1)

michael_rendier (2601249) | about a year ago | (#43916631)

I spend most of my time NOT being in debt up to my eyeballs. No credit cards, no loans, no student debt, no insurance, no drivers license, no mortgage... I can tell you as a casual observer of the world media, and a former soldier, that war is profitable...and if it's not, cleaning up the mess is. Ask Halliburton, and look into their purchase of Boots and Coots bout a week or so before the Big Oozy (gulf oil spill). Ask the schools that they are building in Iraq that fall over in a nominal wind storm. Ask Ray Nagin bout how he helped to spend the Katrina Relief funds on things like a house in Dallas. Most of this world is pissy right now about the inordinate amount of debt in the world, and how everyone is now paying the price for bad business at the top. 40% of the debt in the US is student loans. Who owns you...that is, how much money do you owe to banks, and what can they take from you if you don't toe the line?

Re:China is America (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917009)

Satanic lizard demons

And by Satanic lizard demons you mean "the Joooooos".

Re:China is America (0, Offtopic)

CAOgdin (984672) | about a year ago | (#43916485)

Appropriate you list yourself as a "Coward." Unsubstantiated opinions that fly in the face of logic are cowardly.

Re:China is America (2)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | about a year ago | (#43916931)

And by the same virtue the Democratic Party is the Republican Party and the Republican Party is the Democratic Party in America.

Both serve the corporations.

If it's any help- I think it's too late to do anything about it.

um? (1, Redundant)

etash (1907284) | about a year ago | (#43916389)

Why are such important files internet accessible ? I mean that's security 101 for top secret stuff

Re:um? (5, Funny)

SJHillman (1966756) | about a year ago | (#43916437)

At least we're not Britain. I mean, seriously, what kind of permissions is 007 for a spy?

Re:um? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916505)

As long as the low-order bit is set, he has execute permission.

What's the problem?

mod funny up! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916757)

where's my mod points when I need them.. LUUULZ

Re:um? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917107)

I am root. I don't care about your puny permission bits. bwha haha haha.

Blah blah blah (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916403)

Whatever, its not like its going to start WW3... moving on.

Re:Blah blah blah (1)

Shortguy881 (2883333) | about a year ago | (#43916423)

But it does put us in the midst of a second cold war

Re:Blah blah blah (3, Interesting)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about a year ago | (#43916657)

I do hope that means a second space race. If China seriously looked like they were about to set the first man on Mars, or establish a long-term moon base, I think America would have to devote billions of dollars to doing it first just to defend their national ego. Again.

Re:Blah blah blah (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916809)

I think America would have to devote billions of dollars to doing it first

Nah, we'd just pay China to build everything for us like we do for everything else.

Re:Blah blah blah (1)

NeverVotedBush (1041088) | about a year ago | (#43917437)

You would really agree to fly to Mars for 6-7 months in the cold vacuum of space in a spaceship with a big "Made in China" sticker on it?

Re:Blah blah blah (1)

flayzernax (1060680) | about a year ago | (#43917317)

Perhaps not. If Chinese officials and U.S. Officials all pay lip service to the same corporations, people, dynasties, or whatever...

Re:Blah blah blah (2)

interval1066 (668936) | about a year ago | (#43916715)

But it does put us in the midst of a second cold war

Not even. China can get all butt-hurt if they want, but they'll NEVER put themselves in a position where they can't trade with the US, that would be suicide. China is acting all butt-hurt when we all know they have far more to gain by spying on us than we have to gain by spying on them, economically. We gain by spying on their military strategy, foriegn policy, and disposition of forces.

Re:Blah blah blah (2)

hawguy (1600213) | about a year ago | (#43916449)

Whatever, its not like its going to start WW3... moving on.

If the Chinese use the data appropriately, it can stop WW3 from ever starting by giving them the chance to disable our defenses through software without firing a single shot. They just need to get a Chinese Jeff Goldblum to upload a virus to our mother ship with his Chinese made Macbook.

Re:Blah blah blah (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916499)

Hey, be sensitive. His name is Jerf Gordbrum.

Re:Blah blah blah (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916503)

"Sir, the enemy can disable our defenses with out ever firing a shot."
"Let's just wait them out, private, I'm sure their intentions are nothing but the best."

Another Cold War Almost As Bad (1)

ranton (36917) | about a year ago | (#43916473)

It isn't likely that this would start a full out war, but it has the possibility of starting another cold war between the US and China. Not nearly as many lives are lost, except perhaps people dying in hospitals because the governments are spending more money on defense than on medicare.

Even if all this rhetoric does is give both countries a reason to waste trillions on excessive defense spending, that is already pretty bad.

Economic collapse. (1)

Ungrounded Lightning (62228) | about a year ago | (#43916495)

Whatever, its not like its going to start WW3... moving on.

If relations sour enough that China stops rolling over and buying more US T-bills and starts selling off its holdings, the collapse of the Dollar will drastically exacerbate the US economic collapse. This could easily lead to a WW III situation.

Re:Economic collapse. (2)

elsuperjefe (1487639) | about a year ago | (#43916567)

I don't think China's holdings have that kind of power. If they sell prices would fall, rates would rise. I suspect these events might entice additional demand from other investors causing prices to rise and rates to drop. Also, the U.S. economy is currently growing, not collapsing so there is currently nothing to exacerbate. I would hold off on the bomb shelter for now.

Re:Economic collapse. (1)

hawguy (1600213) | about a year ago | (#43916871)

I don't think China's holdings have that kind of power. If they sell prices would fall, rates would rise. I suspect these events might entice additional demand from other investors causing prices to rise and rates to drop. Also, the U.S. economy is currently growing, not collapsing so there is currently nothing to exacerbate. I would hold off on the bomb shelter for now.

China "owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds [about.com] " -- so even if investors wanted to snap up China's holdings as they sell, they'd have to sell other holdings so it would still have a large effect on the world economy.

Can't fault China on this one (4, Insightful)

Xest (935314) | about a year ago | (#43916445)

Whilst I'm not saying China doesn't do any state sponsored hacking I've pointed out before that China has the largest online population of any nation and has about 1/6th of the world's population. Statistically if you get non-state sponsored hackers in every nation it makes sense that you're going to see more from China than anywhere else.

It's quite possible that it's nothing to do with the US "going public" and everything to do with the fact that a large number of hack attacks from China against the US is pretty much a statistical certainty regardless of state actors being behind it or not.

I think all governments do state sponsored hacking, I certainly think China does, to what extent is unclear but I do think at least the claims against China are probably overhyped.

Which may not inherently be a bad thing anyway though I guess if it gets Western firms to take security a bit more seriously so maybe there's a silver lining regardless.

Re:Can't fault China on this one (4, Insightful)

c (8461) | about a year ago | (#43916497)

Statistically if you get non-state sponsored hackers in every nation it makes sense that you're going to see more from China than anywhere else.

Yeah, but China has a firewall. Surely you're not suggesting that non-state sponsored Chinese hackers have figured out how to get around the national firewall?

Heh... actually, that wouldn't be a bad official response. Puts the Chinese in the position of either accepting responsibility for hacking, or admitting that their state firewall is actually pretty porous.

Re:Can't fault China on this one (5, Insightful)

ranton (36917) | about a year ago | (#43916521)

Heh... actually, that wouldn't be a bad official response. Puts the Chinese in the position of either accepting responsibility for hacking, or admitting that their state firewall is actually pretty porous.

I doubt they care very much that there firewall can be compromised by people skilled enough to hack into government and corporate computers. The main point of the firewall is to assert control over the general population.

Re:Can't fault China on this one (2)

dunkindave (1801608) | about a year ago | (#43917319)

China has implemented the Great Firewall of China, both to monitor and control their citizens, as well as to limit the ingress points into China (three major ones if my memory is right) so they can more easily monitor and cut the lines if attacked. Compare that to the United States which has so many major lines running into/out of the country that it would be nearly impossible to block an attack from outside (not that inside versus outside is truly a big difference). Since these attacks are coming from behind the firewall, and little or nothing is being done to stop them, it is easy to conclude that the government is choosing to allow them to happen. Compare this to the news stories of Chinese citizens being arrested, tried and executed for hacking internal Chinese companies.

Now consider the philosophy difference between the Chinese and Americans, where the Chinese people are raised to believe they have a duty to perform actions to help their country. The government doesn't have to tell people to hack into systems in other countries to collect useful information (which they also do), they just have to make it known that the information is desirable, then not block the attempts by the "non-government" hackers (see my first paragraph). If a citizen later has come into possession of valuable information which they choose to share with the government, then they are just being a good citizen. We call it hacking, China calls it patriotism.

So why does China now respond? Because they are walking a tightrope. They are seeing how far they can push things before it has an unacceptable consequence. That is also why I think we chose to speak up this time, because to always remain silent just lets China continue doing their antics with no real consequences. So why this time and not others? Because if you keep telling the attacker what you saw, and by implication what you didn't, you give him valuable information that can make him more effective and more stealthy.

It may not be the classic form or war, but it follows a lot of the same rules. And because of the difference of philosophies, it is a somewhat asymmetric war.

Re:Can't fault China on this one (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916611)

Do you know what the "state firewall" is for?

By your logic, even if it was a firewall its facing the wrong way (preventing OUTBOUND hack attempts).

Its more a content filter, not really a "firewall".

Re:Can't fault China on this one (2)

Zontar_Thing_From_Ve (949321) | about a year ago | (#43916845)

Heh... actually, that wouldn't be a bad official response. Puts the Chinese in the position of either accepting responsibility for hacking, or admitting that their state firewall is actually pretty porous.

Not really. They can do any of the following, including perhaps more than one of these.
1) The Beavis and Butthead defense - "Those were some other kids, sir" meaning non-Chinese people leaving a trail pointing back to China to deflect blame to there.
2) The Bart Simpson defense (denial) - "I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything."
3) "Evil Chinese hackers did do it and yes, they got around our precious firewall. But we won't admit it to our own citizens. That's for external knowledge only."
4) "The Chinese military did it, but unfortunately they operate without our oversight." I guarantee you that no government person in the US or China wants that to be true. The Chinese military is a bit of a loose canon and the fear on the US side is that the civilian government in China may be not be as much in control of them as they would like. The Chinese government probably fears that they don't control them as much as they are supposed to either. The problem is that according to the Chinese constitution, the PLA (People's Liberation Army) swears allegiance not to China or the government but to the Chinese Communist Party. That's a really important distinction. The government is a subset of the CCP so in theory it could be possible that the government's interests could run counter to the CCP's interests if the CCP was under the control of some non-government whack job.

Re:Can't fault China on this one (1)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about a year ago | (#43917031)

It's not that kind of firewall. It isn't design to keep stuff out or in, only to block people inside China from accessing certain foreign sites. There isn't one big server handling it all, they just require ISPs and search engines to implement the blocks for them.

Re:Can't fault China on this one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916533)

China is like any one party state, the biggest thug will always be the party/government. Everything needs to be done with the approval of the party/government. China's ban on the search of "big yellow ducky" is a good example of how much power it exercises over its people, especially in cyberspace. There is no non-state sponsored hackers in China.

Re:Can't fault China on this one (1)

fredprado (2569351) | about a year ago | (#43916739)

As there is no Chinese mafia, no crime, and nothing outside of the government's control. Please... We are talking about a country whose population is 1.3 billion people. Total control is impossible no matter how bully you are.

There's no money in peaceful solutions (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916455)

...that's why the US administration won't talk - they're the biggest money generator for the Military Industrial Complex.

Still waiting for the pin to drop in the US, all the while TV produces shows about terrorist threats, anyone that questions the government line being a conspiracy theorist (and therefore insane) and revolution being bad.

Re:There's no money in peaceful solutions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917109)

Got a tinfoil hatter here! Thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

Well someone has to be demonized. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916491)

We've got a lot of more tech to buy and dollars to spend and need an enemy to justify it. The middle east isn't a viable technological terrorist...China is.

So they are the new corner stone of the next Axis of Evil. I'm not saying China isn't trying to pentest our stuff. I'm sure they are, and we are reciprocating. I just know we are going to exagerate to subsidize the raytheon's and bae systems et al.

Re:Well someone has to be demonized. (1)

prefec2 (875483) | about a year ago | (#43916797)

Yes, and they are not that menial that they can be overrun with the army, like Iraq. They are even better than the Russians, as they do not collapse after some decades. Instead they grow and they are big and they are investing in new weapons. All this allows to increase the military funds again. Who cares for health care or any other shit as long as we have BIG guns. Great!

I don't get this. (3, Interesting)

wcrowe (94389) | about a year ago | (#43916547)

I always thought it was a rule from Espionage 101 that you don't let the other side know when your side has been compromised. You use it as an opportunity to start sending out false information, and to learn their tactics and precisely who is involved. I don't understand why we are telling everyone in the world that the Chinese have stolen our information. It just makes us look inept in all sorts of ways.

Re:I don't get this. (4, Insightful)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about a year ago | (#43916687)

To harm China diplomatically and economically. If they get a reputation for underhanded spy games then businesses will be more reluctant to do business there for fear of having their designs shamelessly copied and research stolen, and nations will be less willing to allow free trade if it is known that China seeks to favor domestic industry by impeding the operations of overseas competition.

Re:I don't get this. (4, Insightful)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | about a year ago | (#43916979)

The problem with this position is that they have HAD a bad reputation for stealing IP for over 20 years now. And it hasn't changed anything.

People still do business with them. People still ship designs and formulas to them to produce.

What will reduce IP Theft is higher chinese labor costs which make local manufacturing a better solution than offshoring. And we've probably got another 8 years before chinese wages + fuel transportation costs == local labor costs.

Re:I don't get this. (2)

rahvin112 (446269) | about a year ago | (#43917195)

The problem with this position is that they have HAD a bad reputation for stealing IP for over 20 years now. And it hasn't changed anything.

Hasn't changed anything? Are you insane. One small example is Russia won't sell the Chinese ANY advanced weapons. After the Chinese copied some older model Soviet weapons the Russians refused to sell them ANY advanced weapon systems. This little detail has crippled Chinese weapon advancement for more than a decade, and only recently after realizing they can't create the same 50 years of Russian innovation on their own they are only now at the point of a new arms deal with the Russians with guarantees that the designs will not be copied. Even with firm contractual guarantees the Russians are still not sure they want to execute the contract because they don't trust them. I'd wager the contract is about 50/50 that it will ever happen.

Wholesale theft of IP has harmed China in almost as many ways as it has helped them and they have started to realize the damage they've done.

Re:I don't get this. (2)

erice (13380) | about a year ago | (#43917093)

I always thought it was a rule from Espionage 101 that you don't let the other side know when your side has been compromised. You use it as an opportunity to start sending out false information, and to learn their tactics and precisely who is involved.>/p>

I think this has already happened. They traced the attacks to a specific building in Shanghai operated by the Chinese military [nytimes.com] and learned a great deal about the operations taking place there.

I don't understand why we are telling everyone in the world that the Chinese have stolen our information. It just makes us look inept in all sorts of ways.

Probably because all the useful counter-espionage plays have been done. Now the biggest payoff is from using the information for political leverage.

Re:I don't get this. (1, Interesting)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about a year ago | (#43917105)

It's to gain political currency. Make China out to be the bad guy, try to rally international sympathy for the US. Part of an ongoing narrative.

The US loves bad guys. They justify spending and fear. The USSR fell apart, Iraq has been dealt with, Bin Laden is dead and his organization seems to be ineffectual these days. China is the new bad.

Re:I don't get this. (1)

DMUTPeregrine (612791) | about a year ago | (#43917255)

They already got the plans for the F-35. That's a terrible plane that it a horrifically expensive money sink and under performs on almost every aspect.If we give them the F-22 plans too we can watch their pilots die from hypoxia!

China acting responsibly (1)

skywire (469351) | about a year ago | (#43916575)

Any nation-state that does no espionage is irresponsible. They all do it. It's a game, and someone on the US side made a poor move.

Re:China acting responsibly (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916793)

It's a propaganda move, it has nothing to do with responsibility.

It's all about reinforcing the idea that you can't trust the Chinese.

The reality is you can't trust any government.

But we mustn't say that.

"sophisticated weapon design" (1)

beefoot (2250164) | about a year ago | (#43916603)

You think US would allow their most sophisticated weapon design to be stolen by kids in China? No. I think what's really happening behind the scene are: a) the designs are faked -- it wants to drain Chinese resources on building something that never works b) US government wants to introduce a legislature to curb on internet activity. They put out this type of news to support their intent. c) all the above

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (1)

gstoddart (321705) | about a year ago | (#43916673)

Well, b) might be incidentally true ... but I'm more inclined to believe they really were incompetent enough to let this stuff get broken into and stolen.

Some elaborate conspiracy to appear incompetent while fooling the Chinese hackers is a little harder to believe.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (2)

Nidi62 (1525137) | about a year ago | (#43916807)

Some elaborate conspiracy to appear incompetent while fooling the Chinese hackers is a little harder to believe.

If there is anything that government as a rule is good at, it is incompetency.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | about a year ago | (#43917027)

Exactly. And why do you a think that the US plans actually work?

If the Chinese stole the entire plans for the F-35, do you think they could actually make it fly? What they could do is whack out the bad parts, make it simpler and cheaper.

And then we can buy it from them.

Win. Win.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (1)

DMUTPeregrine (612791) | about a year ago | (#43917273)

Well, it's the F-35, of course the plans don't make a working plane! Maybe they can figure out how to get one to perform to spec.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917095)

Some elaborate conspiracy to appear incompetent while fooling the Chinese hackers is a little harder to believe.

If there is anything that government as a rule is good at, it is incompetency.

Exactly. Never attribute to malice what can otherwise be attributed to incompetence. Incompetence wins every time.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916777)

I remember reading a story about how the US basically let the USSR steal a piece of 'important' software and the software started reporting back to the US gov with the USSR's secrets. I'd love to think this was happening here but I have a hard time believe any politician in the last 10-20 years is that competent or forward thinking.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (1)

fredprado (2569351) | about a year ago | (#43916789)

Yes, because the Chinese government wouldn't ever identify a fake design. You overestimate your country and underestimate your enemies too much.... It is much more likely that someone in management messed up and left classified information where it shouldn't be.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917479)

Propaganda is a two way street.

There are a lot of wonderful "stories" about the US outsmarting the Soviets.

Wonder if the Soviets have similar stories?

We have mountains of data (1)

mhesd (698429) | about a year ago | (#43916799)

The obviously count every single automatic attack on the sshd port, made from millions hacked zombie computers from all over the world, as 'data'. Not serious.

I'm American and So Am I... (1)

ilikenwf (1139495) | about a year ago | (#43916893)

These machines shouldn't have been connected to the internet... They also shouldn't have been running OSX or Windows. From there, freaking use LUKS to prevent physical threat and otherwise don't allow Chinese nationals to come into rooms with sensitive data.

I wish my country would come up with a decent security policy...of course, this could've all been a trick, and they could have potentially placed these in a convenient location with compromised plans designed to just cost money and explode...but I don't give the bureaucrats that much credit.

Yeah, whatever China. (1)

CreamyG31337 (1084693) | about a year ago | (#43916901)

The Mandiant report was pretty damning.
"In over 97% of the 1,905 times Mandiant observed APT1 intruders connecting to their attack infrastructure, APT1 used IP addresses registered in Shanghai and systems set to use the Simplified Chinese language."
Oh, sure, it's probably just random hackers that really like that network...

Here's an update:
https://www.mandiant.com/blog/apt1-months-significantly-impacted-active-rebuilding/ [mandiant.com]

Re:Yeah, whatever China. (1)

flayzernax (1060680) | about a year ago | (#43917347)

If I was a Chinese government payed hacker I just use some fairly Anonymous or hard to follow accounts to just purchase access to U.S. hosted servers. Or the U.S.s favorite enemies of the day, which don't really have good internet access.

This is pure political bullshit to keep the masses confused. It is unlikely really anything more. Probably equally participated in by both sides.

Making them stealable? (1)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about a year ago | (#43916929)

Holy crap! Even more reason to ensure my car doors are locked, lest it end up in China.
[ and a car analogy to boot :-) ]

Let them steal the plans (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43916937)

Let them steal the plans, but use a honeypot of plans that when implemented don't work or leave traces that they were stolen.

Outsourced R&D (5, Insightful)

Scot Seese (137975) | about a year ago | (#43916957)

WalMart has outsourced the production of plastic flower pots and patio furniture to China for decades - the Chinese are simply reversing the process! By letting U.S. taxpayers fund the billions of dollars per year we pour into military R&D, they save massive amounts of money and man hours, and are guaranteed the best designs that 17 year old Chinese Red-Bull & Cheetos-fuelled hax0rs can steal.

Take a copy-catted F22 Raptor, paint a Chinese air force insignia on it, and * VOILA! * Fifth generation air superiority fighter MINUS the 20 years of research and testing.
What you say? Their copy is only 85% as good as ours because they made shortcuts in the radar, or avionics, or missile systems? That's OK, our congress will keep paring down the final platform order until our air force ends up only getting 200 F22s, while the Chinese will manufacture 1,150 of theirs.

The current US military philosophy is starting to look more and more like WW2 era Germany, with absolute faith placed in a relatively small number of extremely expensive, extremely high quality weapons systems, which ultimately were smothered and overrun by a developing nation (the U.S.) with phenomenal industrial capacity capable of running M4 tanks, jeeps, B17 bombers, and numerous other things off assembly lines faster than the Germans could destroy them.

The comparative ironies to today's military situation are incredible.

Re:Outsourced R&D (4, Interesting)

rahvin112 (446269) | about a year ago | (#43917283)

Arm chair generals. Although the information they stole is valuable they haven't stolen information that's going to have them building Raptors. China has been trying to copy SU-27 jets for about a decade now, they can't get the engines built right and are at the point of having to go back to a Russia that vowed never to sell to them again to beg them for rights to purchase more advanced systems.

Even though they have working Russian built engines to compare against they weren't able to duplicate the engines. Any Engineer can tell you why, even with detailed schematics, if you don't understand the design you don't know where the critical sections of the design are or what processes to use during assembly that prevent catastrophic failure later. Most of these highly advanced weapon systems have decades of incremental experience built into the design. Even small differences in manufacturing can render parts unusable and it's experience that teaches you that, not schematics and working samples. Though the design information and working samples accelerate learning they don't do away with it.

Re:Outsourced R&D (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917485)

Can you be more specific? I thought designs and schematics would detail all of these things to make sure someone else knows what to do. It's a bad idea to let critical information get stuck in the heads of your scientists and engineers in case they, you know, die.

Of course, if all you have is a physical engine and nothing else, it's not going to be easy to replicate it especially if your engineers have been copying instead of designing their on own.

Re:Outsourced R&D (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917351)

Even the government doesn't have the full plans to make an F-22. They know how to perform final assembly and have most of the technical drawings for individual parts, but almost all of the manufacture is done by independent corporations who have much better security policies.

So what if this engine is made out of titanium rings held +/- 0.005". That doesn't tell you how to forge a ring or how to test it. It doesn't give you all the schematics for assembly tools or processes. Everything is spread out over a thousand different companies contracting to each other, many of which even have individuals who are reluctant to part with their little secret which keeps them employed.

Much of our old space travel technology, including the construction of the original Apollo capsule, is lost to time and bureaucracy. Being able to completely copy, standardize, and scale up a process is the wet dream of aerospace executives everywhere, but it's a lot harder than you might think.

hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war (0)

jsepeta (412566) | about a year ago | (#43916999)

Ready the bombers!

Although really, the only way to take down China is to release a virulent and deadly virus attack in their top 20 cities.

Re:hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war (2)

gary_7vn (1193821) | about a year ago | (#43917143)

What a brilliant idea.

Or you could put them in camps and gas them.

People like you are the reason we are fucked.

Re:hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917465)

Agreed, arrogant thinking "the bombers" are the answer. Maybe in the year 1500 going to "war" was a solution to the worlds issues but haven't moved past that? Perhaps some Chinese is posting on a blog that releasing a deadly virus in the top 20 US cities is the only solution to take down the US (which spys on china pretty heavily).

As the art of war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War) says "know your enemy".

China has bombers as well..

Is__el (1)

gary_7vn (1193821) | about a year ago | (#43917125)

Israel has been caught, many times, stealing and spying. Yet, I have never seen a US President complain about this. Why?

The next enemy for America is China. Right now the US is in cold war with them. But it's going to get hot soon. Much of what is happening in the Middle East is about controlling the oil and thus, China.

The next battlespace will be Africa.

America is sleep walking, as usual, into a war with China.

US Infosec Incompetence summed up in one sentence! (4, Funny)

endus (698588) | about a year ago | (#43917313)

'Even following the general principle of secret-keeping, it should not have been linked to the Internet.'"

You think so??? Really? This is a novel concept to our American Information Security Industry, please, tell us more! Surely you don't mean that power plants and water treatment facilities and power grids and other sensitive facilities should not be linked to the internet...HOW THE FUCK ARE THE OPERATORS GOING TO GET TO FACEBOOK IF WE DISCONNECT THEM!?!?!?!?

I have little sympathy for the US government (1)

Karmashock (2415832) | about a year ago | (#43917363)

Listen. I am an American citizen and I do not want our secret whatever weapons plans stolen by ANYONE. We paid good tax money for those space lasers and trained velociraptor dragoons. I'd like to think we could actually go to war without all our wonderful toys being obsolete.

So why is the US government putting our top secret hush hush designs ON THE F"ING INTERNET LIKE DRUNKEN COEDS POSTING THEIR BOOBS ON FACEBOOK!

From here on out... lets just make a rule. If you're just straight up illiterate of computer science then do the universe a favor and don't get put in charge of computer ANYTHING. The degree of ignorance and incompetence out of government lately seems almost comical. Its as if the point is to illistrate that you're stupid. Is that what I'm to take from these events? I should hope not. Because if you can't be trusted with something as basic as keeping a few weapons plans secret then you're not capable of actually doing anything. Keeping a couple secrets is fundamental. Do it or its time to just dissolve the whole thing and start over.

You are embarrassing yourself and us by extension. Stop it. Are the Chinese spying on you? Do men look at a women that runs naked through a park? Put your damn clothes on.

Quantity Advantage (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about a year ago | (#43917385)

China has about 3 times our population, which means they have about 3 times as many skilled hackers (or will soon). This doesn't bode well for US in a cyberwar.

Immigration amnesty is starting to look more attractive.

I hate to say it but I agree (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43917481)

'Even following the general principle of secret-keeping, it should not have been linked to the Internet.'

I realize, in this day and age, it's much more convenient and (maybe?) necessary to have documents available for download to various people across the states that are involved. But how many times has this happened? If someone discovered a hide-key on your front porch and used the key to break into your home. Would you just continue to leave the key in the same place? Maybe hide it under a rock rather than the flower pot they found it under? More importantly once they broke into your home and stole all of your stuff the 3rd or 4th time wouldn't you realize that there must be a better way to let your family/friends/neighbors etc... have access to your home?

Is there really no other way, in this day and age, that our government can share classified documents other than Windows computers connected to the rest of the world via the internet?

tell it like it is (1)

noshellswill (598066) | about a year ago | (#43917501)

So the slants tell-it-like-it-is ...  yeah we steal yo shite ... and  how basically pathetic globalist sympathizers go coweyed googoo. We had a couple prime chances to bytchslap the mandarins ( LeMays Korean war nukes etcetc! ) and never took them. Gawd help-us if the chi.coms ever get as corrupt and pussy-azz as modern emotocentric Amerika. 
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