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NSA Surveillance Heat Map: NSA Lied To Congress

timothy posted about a year ago | from the hey-dad-what's-up-with-that? dept.

Communications 385

anagama writes "NSA officials have repeatedly denied under oath to Congress that even producing an estimate of the number of Americans caught up in its surveillance is impossible. Leaked screenshots of an NSA application that does exactly that, prove that the NSA flat out lied (surprise). Glenn Greenwald continues his relentless attacks with another bombshell this time exposing Boundless Informant. Interestingly, the NSA spies more on America than China according to the heat map. Representative Wyden had sought amendments to FISA reauthorization bill that would have required the NSA to provide information like this (hence the NSA's lies), but Obama and Feinstein demanded a pure reauthorization of FISA, which they got at the end of 2012." And if you don't mind that you might have your name on yet another special list, you might enjoy this Twitter-based take on the ongoing news.

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And we all know what will happen... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951795)

Absolutely nothing to nobody.

The United States of Apathy.

That happened when ... (4, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year ago | (#43951833)

The PUTUS lied to the congress

The congress lied to the people ... and the people ... becomes sheeple

Re:That happened when ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951845)

There were 8 AC comments before your comment. Combo breaker.

Re:That happened when ... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952053)

Yeah, but c'mon guys, he didn't lie about anything IMPORTANT. Like, y'know, whether he fucked or just fingered an intern...

No apparent lie (4, Informative)

Geoffrey.landis (926948) | about a year ago | (#43952127)

Wait-- "NSA officials have repeatedly denied under oath to Congress that even producing an estimate... is impossible. "

They denied that it's impossible? So, it's possible.

This may be the worst-written summary ever, since it says exactly the opposite of what the headline says. Could slashdot find some people who understand double negatives?

Re:No apparent lie (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952173)

no, they can't not find them.

Re:No apparent lie (5, Funny)

ColdWetDog (752185) | about a year ago | (#43952243)

Could slashdot find some people who understand double negatives?

I don't doubt it.

NSA spied more than China ? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951887)

Interestingly, the NSA spies more on America than China according to the heat map

I thought my eyes had fooled me, and I ended up re-read that sentence 5 times ...

What the fuck is going on ?

Did we elect the WRONG president ?

Re:NSA spied more than China ? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951949)

In this case, as with most cases, there was no right president to elect.

Most of this sort of thing is no longer under the President's or even Congress' control as you'll find out if enough of Congress actually get together and back a bill to end this. Martial law will certainly be the result. Like most large events in history, they are not recognized in their time but someone will look back at the decade just past and say, "The experiment called American Democracy died here."

Re:NSA spied more than China ? (4, Insightful)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43951973)

Correct. Obama is merely continuing and expanding on Bush's policies (while simultaneously blaming him for the resulting effects). McCain would have done the same, perhaps more, perhaps less. This is a farce unlike any seen on this planet for more than a thousand years.

Spoiler alert: It ends badly.

The only way to end without losing everything to hyperinflation and confiscation by the police state is to vote third party. ANY third party. Honestly, even the Socialist Party would be better than this. At least they wouldn't cloak their socialism or national socialism in the guise of capitalism.

Re:NSA spied more than China ? (4, Informative)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about a year ago | (#43952031)

The only way to end without losing everything to hyperinflation and confiscation by the police state is to vote third party

And because of Duverger's Law [wikipedia.org] the only way for that to happen is to get Approval Voting [indiegogo.com] * implemented.

But the odds of that happening in time, against the hegemony, are asymptotic to zero. Since the last time it happened the two big parties have spent more than a century and a half ensconcing their rule in law.

* or more other more-difficult-to-understand-and-implement Condorcet method

Oh another fucking goldbug (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952125)

Spare us, goldbug. To you all, if it aint gold standard, it's the Weimar Republic.

Re:Oh another fucking goldbug (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952155)

Whatever you say, troll boy. You just ignore all the money printing that is keeping this shitshow afloat. I'm sure that we can ignore the consequences of ignoring reality indefinitely. Also, assume the position for your daily fingerbanging by your TSA overlords.

Re:NSA spied more than China ? (4, Interesting)

superwiz (655733) | about a year ago | (#43952367)

Correct. Obama is merely continuing and expanding on Bush's policies

Bull shit!! Bull shit!!! Bull shiiiiit! Bush hired enough lawyers to make sure he walked just on the line between legal an illegal. He chose to stay within the law and to demand that laws change just so that the head of state of this nation would still be bound by the laws of this nation. Obama does not even pretend to be restricted by such frivolities as the law. The obsequious news media is what does it. No benevolent dictatorship stays benevolent for long.

Re:NSA spied more than China ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952337)

When I heard how a lot of people vote, "pick the one that supports the most number of your viewpoints", I knew that we were screwed. This is possible the worst way ever to pick the next president. Vote for who you believe in most and who you think would make a strong and great president. Not someone who looks like he's going to win and matches the most numbers on your card. Vote for the underdog even, if he would make a great president.

Re:NSA spied more than China ? (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about a year ago | (#43952113)

Interestingly, the NSA spies more on America than China according to the heat map

I thought my eyes had fooled me, and I ended up re-read that sentence 5 times ...

What the fuck is going on ?

The answer to you question on Twitter :

@PRISM_NSA: He who would trade liberty for security deserves great customer service

Re:And we all know what will happen... (4, Informative)

Mashiki (184564) | about a year ago | (#43952025)

Absolutely nothing to nobody.

The United States of Apathy.

People like to say that, but it helps when the media isn't in the tank with the government. Much like the media today is, and spinning for all it's worth trying to cover up *insert issue* though the last few things like the AP wire tap, and attacks against Fox News by the Obama admin seem to have gotten the press against them. This is followed by the realization of a lot of people that the government was/is/continues to target conservative groups. AKA "Where were the tea party groups in 2010? That's simple, being silenced."

Well not to forget that the low information voters are simply a curse on everyone. But even they've started to realize exactly what Obama is, worse than Bush. And for many people, that's rather surprising, unless of course you were paying attention and did digging on your own. A lot of people have realized that the current administration is actually worse than Nixon. What are we upto now? 8 or 9 scandals? I'm sure there's at least 3 to 4 more out there, especially now that the Obama admin is targeting whistleblowers.

Re:And we all know what will happen... (4, Interesting)

Pav (4298) | about a year ago | (#43952209)

Today is the day I start slowly cutting my ties with Facebook, learning the ways of secure chat, email etc... Unfortunately Slashdot is most probably part of the problem. Perhaps current governments honestly do think they're serving the greater good, but that's an an awful big carrot sitting there waiting for the next Napoleon, Hitler, lesser psychopath etc... I can make it less enticing in my small and probably largely ineffectual way, but we can only do what we can. I actually already have a Diaspora* account, though Friendica looks interesting. It's way past time I learned about these technologies anyway.

Re:And we all know what will happen... (1, Flamebait)

craigminah (1885846) | about a year ago | (#43952325)

I've distrusted Google since for many years but there's no way to protect yourself on the Internets except to be a law-abiding person.

There's been a trend on /. where security-related or anti-governmental stories get pushed off the /. front page quickly; hidden by a sudden influx of other stories in an effort to bury them. Presumably, by US governmental /. posters to protect the US government and it's interests.

Re:And we all know what will happen... (2)

stanIyb (2945195) | about a year ago | (#43952371)

but there's no way to protect yourself on the Internets except to be a law-abiding person.

It's difficult to be a law abiding citizen because there are so many laws that it's difficult to not run afoul of at least a few. And really, you also have to hope that the government is made up of perfect angels who would never abuse their powers or make mistakes; otherwise, you may get hurt despite being a law-abiding person...

Re:And we all know what will happen... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952287)

Nothing would happen elsewhere either dumbass. ( except perhaps the 'vanishing' of anyone who leaked, or discussed it ).

And since you don't have a clue: *ALL* federal level governments in the world are out of control. But at least in the US we don't get killed for protesting abuse when it's discovered, for now. ( we just get audited.. )

Re:And we all know what will happen... (1, Flamebait)

superwiz (655733) | about a year ago | (#43952339)

The United States of Apathy.

Bull shit! Every time news 1/100th as damaging as these came out under Bush, there was an outcry. Wasn't because we hated Bush. The news controls the narrative. They beat the drums of panic under Bush and try to play the lullabies now that they got a Communist in the White House. It's not the people who apathetic. It's the story tellers who control the story.

Re:And we all know what will happen... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952381)

Every time news 1/100th as damaging as these came out under Bush, there was an outcry.

Mostly among non-republicans. Now that a democrat is in power, fewer democrats are speaking out when said democrat abusing his power. It's what happens every single time.

Germany (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951797)

Germany is yellow. Just mentioning...

Re:Germany (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951959)

It's yellow to prevent it from being red. Or it's the industrial espionage, who knows.

D'uh (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951799)

Professional liars lying, who would've thought?

This is impossible. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951801)

This is impossible and I am willing to believe everything the NSA said.
And if you do not believe the same you are very unpatriotic.

Re:This is impossible. (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | about a year ago | (#43952027)

...you are very unpatriotic.

I'm very patriotic. I'm wearing my government issued microphone shaped lapel pin right now while singing the B-52's Love Shack out of tune and with incorrect lyrics.

I'ts a little old place where we can buy a sweater, LOVE SHACK BAYAAABEEEEE!

Uncommon patriotism from a common citizen.

Re:This is impossible. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952363)

The "out of tune" offset and incorrect lyrics is actually a coded encrypted message! After him! He's in a sleeper cell!

Yeah. You'd better have a wide smile on your face and mean it. Anything 1% outside of the norm is going to be the next "evil". Think happy thoughts.

Required viewing (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951807)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veag-ptUkXI

Saw that movie years ago. (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951895)

The Lives of Others [imdb.com]

There's a big difference,though.

Aside being complete fiction, the monitor was directly listening in, empathized with the folks he was spying on, was disillusioned with his cause and leadership and basically burned out with the whole job - IIRC.

With the NSA, they have mostly automated systems that are listening in on everyone in a mechanical way that doesn't allow for empathy and identification with the vict...subject, you have monitors that believe that they are "protecting" the US from its enemies (drank the Red, White and Blue Kool-Aids),and add in bureaucrats who have to cover their asses in order to keep their over paid cushy jobs (please, getting chewed out by a grandstanding toothless namby pamby Congress that would NEVER think of really doing anything for fear of being labeled"Soft on Terror" by the morons on Fox News and the idiots who watch it? Entertainment for the grillee! ).

The other thing is, where's the Jewish community? Why aren't they up in arms over this? Doesn't this feel like Nazi/East Germany?

Never forget indeed.

Re:Saw that movie years ago. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952073)

The other thing is, where's the Jewish community? Why aren't they up in arms over this? Doesn't this feel like Nazi/East Germany?

Never forget indeed.

Hello, welcome to the Internet. I will be your guide.

If you haven't noticed it yet the Jewish community is only against fascist dictatorships and genocide as long as it is pointed at them.

RIAA: IP:==person. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951809)

"NSA officials have repeatedly denied under oath to Congress that even producing an estimate of the number of Americans caught up in its surveillance is impossible.

They probably matched one IP to one user to get their numbers.

Too Late To Stop It (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951831)

It's too late to stop this or even do anything about it. The only actions that can be taken would be to physically destroy the facilities that handle this data gathering and store the harvest.

It's clear that the US government doesn't care about our laws of Constitution. They lie to the people, to Congress, to judges and even to each other. This crap started late in the GWB's second term and our current administration of "change" has done nothing about it except to expand its reach.

Re:Too Late To Stop It (2)

stanIyb (2945195) | about a year ago | (#43951875)

This crap started late in the GWB's second term

Are you talking about a specific event? If not, well, the government has been violating the constitution in a number of ways for a very long time...

Re:Too Late To Stop It (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952343)

Considering this story is about the current government data gathering projects (FISA, PRISM, Operation Citizen Scan, Bend Over and Take It, etc), I'm guessing that's what OP is referring to.

Re:Too Late To Stop It (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951965)

well, that would put a lot of used hard drives on the surplus market. I've begun to wonder that there are ant left for consumer use these days.

Re:Too Late To Stop It (1)

Shavano (2541114) | about a year ago | (#43952135)

Call your Congressperson and demand that he do something... No wait, not the telephone; that's bugged. Send him an emai... dammit!. OK, send him a letter. They still (we think) won't open that without a warrant.

Re:Too Late To Stop It (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952199)

They don't have to open it. They can use infra-red imaging to see the pen marks on the paper inside the envelope than use computer software to unfold the letter inside and read it plain as day.

Hey, did you see the hyper speed book scanner that the Japanese guy developed? Just riffle the pages under the high speed camera and the computer program unbends the pages to make them flat again.

captcha: papers (as in show me your _____ , maggot)

Re:Too Late To Stop It (4, Interesting)

Nerdfest (867930) | about a year ago | (#43952205)

I found this lying around on the internet. It looks like at least some of the people at the NSA know damned well that what they're doing is wrong, but don't seem to care (or didn't understand that what is described in 1984 is bad): I'm making the assumption that this [cypherspace.org] is true.

Re:Too Late To Stop It (1)

Pav (4298) | about a year ago | (#43952303)

...and in the meantime become more security conscious and learn the ways of more secure technologies, and perhaps more secure and fedorated social networking platforms such as Diaspora*, Friendica etc... Duckduckgo for search (although who REALLY knows if these guys are honest). Any more tips for the SaaS (Spying as a Service) refugee?

Finally (5, Insightful)

lesincompetent (2836253) | about a year ago | (#43951843)

I hope you americans now realize what you let happen.
Inaction is no worse than active support.

Re:Finally (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951893)

Let happen?! Inaction??? The Hell, my friend, we all but demanded this happen. We have a bad habit of believing liars in America, so long as they have the right party letter after their name. It's long past time we wake up and realize they all, Dems and Reps alike, lie to us for their own profit. We've opened Pandora's Box and it's highly likely it cannot be closed.

Re:Finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952023)

Welcome the the ranks of the practical curmudgeon.

Re:Finally (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952253)

It's disingenuous to claim that his is primarily or only an American problem. I'd suggest that all members of what they consider open democracies have a look at their own houses and see what's going on there.

It will sound like conspiracy theory but the current experiment with what we might call western style democracies is just about to come to an end and the normal end to a democracy is a new tyranny. Of course, there are those whose heads are firmly wedged up their butts who will believe that our new instant communication and information technology will allow us to choose a new path into a somewhat romantic anarchy where everyone is well informed and makes the right choices about what to do nest, like a giant shared mind commune, but, sadly, these people have no real grasp of the human condition and how it works.

(I know it well. I've been on your planet for thousands of years watching you all fumble along. Things went differently on my planet but then we weren't human. ;-)

Re:Finally (1)

thorax' pap (2946661) | about a year ago | (#43952309)

Get back to the farm. The cows need milking before we leave this place.

Is anyone surprised? Honestly? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951877)

No one?

The only surprising part is the Congress citters seemed to believe them. After all, they are politicians themselves, they should know NSA lied, each time, every time.

Twitter != news (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951883)

you might enjoy this Twitter-based take on the ongoing news.

From the twitter:

Declassified: our research indicates that 95.9% of Americans who claim to be LOLing are in fact L-ing silently, if at all.

News indeed.

Re:Twitter != news (1)

JustOK (667959) | about a year ago | (#43952137)

Were they or were they not actually rolling on the floor?

So Germany? (1)

eddy (18759) | about a year ago | (#43951891)

I'm the reason they're yellow is because of NSA industrial spionage?

Call me cynical, but... (1)

theillien (984847) | about a year ago | (#43951899)

I have a hard time believing the US performs more domestic surveillance than Putin's Russia.

Re:Call me cynical, but... (1)

Dthief (1700318) | about a year ago | (#43951929)

Well, we could go ask the NSA, I'm sure they have gathered information on this.

Re:Call me cynical, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951939)

Data is easier and cheaper to get in the states than in Russia

Re:Call me cynical, but... (1)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43951981)

That's not cynicism. That's denial. But at least you get to be the Queen!

Re:Call me cynical, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952037)

WTF does that have to do with anything?

Re:Call me cynical, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952061)

Why, because its easier to do nowadays?

Re:Call me cynical, but... (5, Informative)

cdrudge (68377) | about a year ago | (#43952067)

You're reading the heatmaps wrong. It doesn't indicate what each country has collected on itself. It indicates what the NSA has collected on each country.

Re:Call me cynical, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952103)

I have a hard time believing the US performs more domestic surveillance than Putin's Russia.

You don't see a problem with having Putin's Russia as a frame of reference?

One should always strive to be among the best. When you start to say "At least I am better than some of the worst." you are in pretty deep trouble.

Not A Lie (1)

jlaprise1 (1042514) | about a year ago | (#43951907)

Knowing how many people in the USA are surveilled is not the same as knowing how many Americans are surveilled. Two very different numbers. What's more, without breaking privacy by looking at the content, the NSA cannot be absolutely sure. Statistically confident but not without the element of uncertainty.

Congress should ask better questions. They are mostly lawyers after all.

Re:Not A Lie (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951997)

And when they ask better questions, I suppose you're going to say that it depends on what the definition of 'is' is.

Re:Not A Lie (5, Interesting)

Immerman (2627577) | about a year ago | (#43952003)

Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how difficult it was to come up with "scathing" questions that could be lied to with the technical truth? I seriously doubt any but the most naive in Congress are at all surprised by these events, but obviously they have to *act* surprised on camera or there might be public outcry that could damage their own boat. Meanwhile they also need to give the folks being questioned plenty of wiggle room as a professional courtesy, after all any one of them could be the next victims of some inquest or other. Plus you know, NSA. They almost certainly have career-ending dirt on every major politician in the country, you gotta be sure that in the back-room after-meeting you can make a good claim that you did everything you could to protect them or your own face may feature in the next front-page scandal.

Re:Not A Lie (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952059)

Congress should ask better questions.

And make sure they're asking the right people. My old boss was subpoenaed a few years ago in a civil case to answer some questions about how a piece of our software worked, and ended up giving completely false information because the boss was a clueless nimrod. (We had nothing to gain or lose either way though)

Re:Not A Lie (1)

oodaloop (1229816) | about a year ago | (#43952167)

Not only that, but the chart only shows pieces of data, about 2 billion for the U.S in a 30-day period. It does not show how many people at all. The NSA officals' statements were probably literally true: they can't know how many people are connected to the vast mountain of data they collect.

Re:Not A Lie (4, Informative)

Shavano (2541114) | about a year ago | (#43952169)

The 4th Amendment says

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Citizenship is not mentioned and the clear intent of the Amendment is to limit the kinds of things the government can do. In a reasonably broad interpretation, it means that whoever the person is, regardless of citizenship, a warrant is required. In a reasonably narrow interpretation, "the people" means everybody who lives or does business in the United States. Remember that at the time this was written, the notion of citizenship was not sharply defined. There were many people living under the jurisdiction of US law whose status wasn't entirely clear. What people cared about was what the government had power to do in the States.

Who will be hanged for this? And why no one? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951909)

Who will be hanged for this? And why no one?

It's time to show them their place.

Lies? (1, Flamebait)

Obfuscant (592200) | about a year ago | (#43951961)

"NSA officials have repeatedly denied under oath to Congress that even producing an estimate of the number of Americans caught up in its surveillance is impossible. Leaked screenshots of an NSA application that does exactly that, ...

They denied it was impossible, and they have a tool that does it. Where's the lie? Where's the source for this to see what the real claim is?

The closest source says that NSA has said it cannot tell "with certainty" who or where all the participants in a communications are. They have the IP address. They're admitting that the IP address doesn't identify the user, which is what we yell at **IAA when a story of them suing someone for megabucks based on identification via IP appears here.

The IP address doesn't tell you where they are at more than sometimes the city-level. Even with that, you don't know if the person is there or on the other side of the planet bouncing their communications through that address. I log in to my home from all over the world when I travel, so do you know where I am when I send mail from "home"? I use my work IMAP server for work email -- am I at my desk when I send an email through there from Brazil? No and no.

Not who, not where. What lie?

Re:Lies? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952007)

Double negatives, dude. It's a mistake in the article. They have denied that it's possible to estimate, however they are doing just that behind the scenes. There's your lie.

Re:Lies? (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year ago | (#43952219)

There's an enormous difference between "no, we cannot tell you how many Americans" and "yes, but IP addresses aren't 100% accurate"

The lie is using weasel words to avoid admitting to Congress "yes" they had the capability to do what was being asked about.

Re:Lies? (1)

phayes (202222) | about a year ago | (#43952311)

Now that you've set your conclusions in stone & you've denounced the NSA for lying, would you mind giving us the proof that what your basing all this on is actually from the NSA & not some disinformation? What? You don't actually have any proof & all your conclusions are based on hot air? I'm astonished, astonished, I tell you...

Re:Lies? (1)

Shavano (2541114) | about a year ago | (#43952355)

But you don't think that the NSA possesses the technology to give an ESTIMATE of how much information originates where?
  • That is incredibly naive and
  • That presumes the NSA is not in the business of analyzing intelligence.

Congress should have held the witness in contempt the moment such a statement came out of him mouth, charged him perjury and had him fired for being a lying piece of shit.

China (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43951989)

If we're going to go the way of China, could we at least have some of our manufacturing jobs back?

"Dog bites man" is not news ... (1)

houghi (78078) | about a year ago | (#43952021)

"Man bites dog" is news. Please come back when they tell the truth.

Big F'ing surprise. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952039)

one: that they lied about being able to report on how many Americans are being spied upon. "We cannot determine WITH ANY CERTAINTY..." - right, that's what error ranges are (ie: approximately 90,000,000 +/- 5%) The whole issue is now not the spying, but the evasive tone of all their answers. They obfuscate the truth and give answers that completely deflect the question under the guise that even ANSWERING would somehow compromise their program.

two: that they cannot come up with relative locations. Please. I can run a list of IP's through my system and come up with countries of origin in seconds, so I can't imagine how the freaking NSA (with ITS resources) can't come up with something far more comprehensive.

This whole line by the NSA about doing this for our protection is a complete joke. According to that map, they're spying more on us than many of the countries out there. If anything, we should be at a virtual zero level, and everyone else should be lit to some degree.

What REAL Americans would do... (4, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | about a year ago | (#43952069)

Contact your Representatives and DEMAND that the PATRIOT act be repealed. It is wrong that it ever became permanent and was supposed to only be a temp measure.. IT is being abused and is an abomination to everything that america holds dear.

Write a LETTER and an email you your representatives now and demand they repeal it. Without the PATRIOT act, Everything crumbles at their feet.

Action summary (2)

Okian Warrior (537106) | about a year ago | (#43952255)

From a previous post, here's the collected list of suggested actions
people can take to help fix the government.

Have more ideas? Please post below.

Links worthy of attention:

http://anticorruptionact.org/ [anticorruptionact.org]

http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html [ted.com]

http://action.fairelectionsnow.org/fairelections [fairelectionsnow.org]

http://represent.us/ [represent.us]

http://www.protectourdemocracy.com/ [protectourdemocracy.com]

http://www.wolf-pac.com/ [wolf-pac.com]

https://www.unpac.org/ [unpac.org]

http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ [thirty-thousand.org]

Suggestion #1:

(My idea): If people could band together and agree to vote out the
incumbent (senator, representative, president) whenever one of these
incidents crop up, there would be incentive for politicians to better
serve the people in order to continue in office. This would mean
giving up party loyalty and the idea of "lessor of two evils", which a
lot of people won't do. Some congressional elections are quite close,
so 2,000 or so petitioners might be enough to swing a future election.

Someone added: Vote them out AND remove their lifetime,
taxpayer-funded, free health care. See how fast the health care system
gets fixed.

Someone added:You can start by letting your house and senate rep know
how you feel about this issue / patriot act and encourage others you
know to do the same.

If enough people let their representivies know how they feel obviously
those officials who want to be reelected will tend to take notice. We have
seen what happens when wikipedia and google go "dark", congressional
switchboards melt and the 180's start to pile up.

I added: Fax is considered the best way to contact a congressperson,
especially if it is on corporate letterhead.

Suggestion #2:

Tor, I2dP and the likes. Let's build a new common internet over the
internet. Full strong anonymity and integrity. Transform what an
eavesdropper would see in a huge cypherpunk clusterfuck.

Taking back what's ours through technology and educated practices.

Let's go back to the 90' where the internet was a place for
knowledgeable and cooperative people.

Someone Added: Let's go full scale by deploying small wireless routers
across the globe creating a real mesh network as internet was designed
to be!

Suggestion #3:

A first step might be understanding the extent towards which the
government actually disagrees with the people. Are we talking about a
situation where the government is enacting unpopular policies that
people oppose? Or are we talking about a situation where people
support the policies? Because the solutions to those two situations
are very different.

In many cases involving "national security", I think the situation is
closer to the second one. "Tough on X" policies are quite popular, and
politicians often pander to people by enacting them. The USA Patriot
Act, for example, was hugely popular when it was passed. And in
general, politicians get voted out of office more often for being not
"tough" on crime and terrorism and whatever else, than for being too
over-the-top in pursuing those policies.

Suggestion #4:

What I feel is needed is a true 3rd party, not 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th
parties, such as Green, Tea Party, Libertarian; we need an agreeable
third party that can compete against the two majors without a lot of
interference from small parties. We need a consensus third party.

Suggestion #5:

Replace the voting system. Plurality voting will always lead [wikipedia.org]
to the mess we have now. The only contribution towards
politics I've made in years was to fund Approval [indiegogo.com]
Voting video. It's the best compromise for a replacement
system. Work to get it allowed at your Town or City level, then we can
take it higher.

Suggestion #6:

Paraphrasing: Start a social perception that working for evil is
evil. Possibly connect this to religious beliefs, but in general shun
people who have worked for the system as promoting evil (both in
hiring and socially).

The post:

1) this kind of sht is morally wrong

2) thus, working for this kind of sht is morally wrong

3) thus, anybody who works for this kind of sht is going to hell, for
whatever your value of 'hell'.

4) you might say that 'i need the money from this gig', but

5) anybody who works for this kind of sht is feeding their kids but is
at the same time fscking over the kids' future bigtime. Your kids will
not forgive you for being the AC IRL.

From this, it should easily emerge that everybody should just stop
working for this sht. No workers, no NSA. There needs to emerge a
culture and a movement to encourage it. Shame the spineless coward who
works for the Man! Shun him or tell him what he does is evil and his
country hates him for it. Spread the word!

One question.. (1)

3seas (184403) | about a year ago | (#43952091)

With all the spying and lying going on, have those spying really learned anything at all, or do they believe the lies they are collecting?

Wrong question anyway... (5, Informative)

bradley13 (1118935) | about a year ago | (#43952097)

Wrong question anyway...

What is it with the apparent belief that the US Constitution is only supposed to guarantee rights for US citizens?

This seems to be an implicit assumption in the public reaction to the NSA spying scandals. The Constitution makes no such distinction; it is intended to limit the power of the government, period, regardless of who is affected. If this were not the case, the US government could do anything it wanted to foreigners: search without a warrant, detain them indefinitely without charges, torture them, even murder them.

Oh, right...

Sorry for the cynicism, but the point should be obvious: This is clearly not the intent of the Constitution. The US government is out of control, but too many Americans excuse this by saying "well, it's mostly them foreigners, so it's ok". It is not ok. Anyway, it is now beyond obvious that the US government routinely violates the rights of everyone including US citizens.

Re:Wrong question anyway... (2)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about a year ago | (#43952361)

The point is that most Americans don't care if it's not them. But now we see that it IS them. That's the point of this leak... Even YOU are being targeted by your government now... what are YOU going to do? And voting wont help... Both parties were in on this. What are you going to do when your entire government is a corrupt mess that has more of your population in prison than any other government in history, manipulates your elections in such an efficient way most people feel like they're actually making a choice when no real choice actually exists and feels it's within their power to imprison you indefinitely, torture you, and even murder your entire family via missile strike? How is this country different than North Korea (other than the mass starving and such)? At least in North Korea you know that when the police arrive you should just run... I guess a lot of people in our poorer communities already have this figured out.

Re:Wrong question anyway... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952377)

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Perhaps the belief exists because those are the first words written in the fucking document. I don't see anything about the "people of the earth/world"

It explicitly states "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves".

"Impossible to conduct a reasonable discussion.." (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952141)

"She [NSA spokesperson] added: "The continued publication of these allegations about highly classified issues, and other information taken out of context, makes it impossible to conduct a reasonable discussion on the merits of these programs.""

Oh. Oh really? Well, that's really a shame, given that you should have conducted a reasonable discussion on the merits of these programs BEFORE implementing them!

People might even be okay with these programs depending upon the nature of what's being done and the rationale for it. People already accept things such as the need for police to conduct wiretaps if the case is good enough for a judge to issue a warrant. But we're in a democracy. If you don't even talk to the people about this kind of widespread sweep, and get feedback on whether it is acceptable to them or not, then of course they're fricking angry when they find out how far you've gone without consulting them. This thing has long been suspected by plenty of people. It's not a big surprise. But why the hell are you surprised that it's a freaking mess to try to sort things out after the fact becomes official? I mean, I know the "act first, ask for forgiveness later" approach might be deeply engrained in the intelligence community, but you're talking about wholesale monitoring of people's communications. Of course there is going to to a be a lot of misinformation and confusion when you don't provide any information yourself about it. Deal with it. Properly. Please. Correct the inaccuracies.

This is one of those situations where if you don't get out in front of the thing with some factual and specific information promptly, then nobody is going to believe you even if you do tell the truth.

How can public relations people working for an intelligence agency be so clued out about how to handle this? Oh, there's misinformation? No kidding? And you think not saying how the program actually works will cure the problem? Bizarre.

Re:"Impossible to conduct a reasonable discussion. (1)

SylvesterTheCat (321686) | about a year ago | (#43952221)

Very well stated. I wish I had mod points now.

Speculation on Attention Attracting Keywords (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952143)

So does anyone have any suggestions on what keywords I should be avoding in my posts.
I suppose
        Jihad
        9/11
        Al-Qaida

would be some, are there other's?

The country voted for these clowns (1)

Horshu (2754893) | about a year ago | (#43952145)

We got the Congress we deserve, so we have no one to blame but ourselves. How many times did the electorate fall for commercials saying "vote for me, I'll make the country safe"? Time and time again, politicians go to the law and order/kill the bad guys card, and the public falls for it every...single...time. Instead of being outraged, the country should be planting a giant palm on its gigantic face.

It's all about (0)

dammy (131759) | about a year ago | (#43952151)

Name of the game is, "Control." The Elites have complete control of the Democrat Party and a strangle hold on the GOP via the GOP Establishment because the Elites cover their bet on elections. Whomever wins, will be their puppet from either party to further the Elite's agendas. Elites also own and control the mainstream media and that is why we have to get any real information on what is happening in the US Government from the UK or, surprise, Russia. If you starting to think something smells in America, it's the stench of Fascism (under which government and corporations combine) as they prepare for control of American society when economic chaos begins. Aren't you glad the US Government that monitors you also has your complete medical records and is dictating on what medical treatments you may receive under Obamacare? Good sheep will get limited health care, bad sheep, well the paperwork is somewhere, just have to wait till they find it and correct it and the IRS has questions for you on your premiums.

Who ordered? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952153)

Butlerian jihad, anyone?

Re:Who ordered? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952297)

Butlerian jihad, anyone?

Where are the freeman when you need them ?

Population explosion? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952177)

"Leaked screenshots of an NSA application that does exactly that..."
"...producing an estimate of the number of Americans caught up in its surveillance..."

Going by the summary and the only readable screenshot in the links, approximately 3 billion Americans are under surveillance! That's three times the reported population of the United States! The Census Bureau must be part of the conspiracy! Just how deep does this rabbit hole go?!

I would wager that the screenshot is showing total connections or pieces of data being monitored, not individuals.

Liars call out liars who aren't liars. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952185)

Apparently none of you read the statement by James Clapper outlining exactly what prevents NSA/CIA from gathering intelligence on U.S. citizens. You love reading out of context documents. Perhaps it gives you a reason to go into the kitchen and get your tin foil. Go read the FISA, and you'll see exactly what protects your 4th amendment rights. Of course you probably won't go and read the document because you're too busy basking in your dystopian fantasy.

Re:Liars call out liars who aren't liars. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952227)

Apparently none of you read the statement by James Clapper outlining exactly what prevents NSA/CIA from gathering intelligence on U.S. citizens. You love reading out of context documents. Perhaps it gives you a reason to go into the kitchen and get your tin foil. Go read the FISA, and you'll see exactly what protects your 4th amendment rights. Of course you probably won't go and read the document because you're too busy basking in your dystopian fantasy.

FISA court rubber stamps any request, wether well founded or not. They are even worse if it's humanely possible than the US Patent Office in this regard. FISA is a fig leaf, it offers no protection at all against unwarranted surveillance. None whatsoever.

Re:Liars call out liars who aren't liars. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952319)

Bull fucking shit. Did you ever think that maybe the lawyers and professionals writing the warrants have their paperwork in order? Perhaps the targeting is focused on individuals and organizations that are either agents of foreign governments or terrorist organizations. Perhaps the warrants that are written are backed up by evidence and paperwork that provide probable cause for that type of involvement. What do you want the judges to do? Throw a bunch of warrants out every year to satisfy your desire to feel safe from the black helicopters in the sky?

Re:Liars call out liars who aren't liars. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952349)

And just recently, we found out that they're collecting information about Verizon customers; the warrant isn't specific at all. People with power will abuse it; bet on that. How can you be so disgustingly naive?

I hope (1)

John Chu (2706345) | about a year ago | (#43952197)

I could get that software.

Crooks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43952251)

But you forget to mention that most of Congress are crooks. Democracy in the west isn't real - you get a choice between two fascist figureheads. It all boils down to money and corporate influence.

Data crunching perspective (1)

stevez67 (2374822) | about a year ago | (#43952265)

The NSA Prism program began in 2007 under Pres. G.W. Bush and was authorized by Congress and has been reauthorized. It's not a Democratic or Republican program, it's bipartisan. Anyone who thinks the NSA is finding and listening to their phone conversations (2B/day), reading their emails (144.8B/day), or reading their txts (6B/day) would have to be awfully vain.

Pessimism (1)

tukang (1209392) | about a year ago | (#43952277)

A lot of pessimistic posters are saying how nothing will change and people don't care. I wonder if this is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're one of these people, have you done ALL of the following?

  1. Donate to the ACLU and EFF
  2. Stop supporting BOTH Democrats and Republicans and start supporting a third party
  3. Write all of your representatives in Congress and the Senate

If the answer is no, then YOU are the problem.

Speaking of lying (1)

ckedge (192996) | about a year ago | (#43952289)

..way back in the 90's for a while it was "a thing" to attach fake "false positive" sentences and words to online posts and e-mails to "gum up" the data collected by echelon. How come American's haven't immediately started that up again? I haven't even heard the idea mentioned. You'd think Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert would think of and be on board with something like that.

They could call it "talk like a terrorist" month.

whats going on (1)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about a year ago | (#43952305)

Can anyone explain to me why all this shits coming out now? All at once? From several different agencies? This can't be a coincidence. Is the NSA stuff getting leaked on purpose to get the media off the IRS story? I really don't get this. I could see all the NSA stuff coming from one source. But the other stories? Clearly we're being manipulated, but by whom and for what purpose?

I don't get it; why the need to lie? (4, Insightful)

Bearhouse (1034238) | about a year ago | (#43952333)

Urm, we're supposed to live in a democracy, right?
If there are real threats, (and seems to be plenty of them), that this technology can efficiently and effectively combat, then explain it to the people who vote and also pay for the damn thing.
Don't give me BS about how that will somehow "compromise" the security of the system; specific facts (like the names of agents) compromise security, not generic information about what information you are gathering, on whom.

These people lie to avoid oversight, is all. That way leads to tyranny.
If they cannot explain why this is in our interests, then it's not.

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