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The Free State Project, One Decade Later

samzenpus posted about a year ago | from the power-to-the-people dept.

Politics 701

Okian Warrior writes "About a decade ago Slashdot ran an article about the Free State Project: an attempt to get 20,000 liberty-minded activists to move to one state (they chose NH) and change the political landscape. Eleven years on, the project is still growing and having an effect on statewide politics. NPR recently ran a program discussing the movement, its list of successes, and plans for the future. The FSP has a noticeable effect on politics right now — still 6,000 short of their 20,000 goal, and long before the members are scheduled to move to NH."

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701 comments

"Liberty-Minded"? (2, Insightful)

TWiTfan (2887093) | about a year ago | (#43960875)

WTF does that even mean? That could be anything from Libertarians who don't want to pay taxes to hippies wanting to set up a socialist utopia.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (5, Insightful)

Jawnn (445279) | about a year ago | (#43960953)

Never mind. If you can't be bothered to, you know, actually educate yourself you are definitely not someone we'd want participating in a truly representative government. The link is right there in TFS, BTW.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

beamin (23709) | about a year ago | (#43961059)

The more that people educate themselves, the less likely they'd be to swallow the bullshit that the FSP is serving.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (4, Insightful)

Archangel Michael (180766) | about a year ago | (#43961233)

Indoctrination is not education. They often call it that though. Being told you have to submit to the state authority on all things is exactly what is wrong with our current system. IRS, NSA, DOJ scandals all presuppose power to the state.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961413)

Yeah, but it's the same old libertarian-party bullshit wrapped up in a fake facade.

When libertarians use the word "liberty" they mean it a lot like when scientologists use the word "ethics" or a lot of their other word misappropriations [xenu-directory.net] and catchphrases.

It's always funny listening to them speak. The average libertarian screaming about how government is always evil, taxation is always theft, how no entity but the government could ever have an impact on the "liberty" of another person. You know what? I prefer a world where segregated lunch counters don't exist, where there's someone who has my back to say the MY money is just as good as anyone else's rather than some kkk asshat being able to tell me to move to some other city where my "kind" is tolerated. Libertarians are so hung up on eliminating government that they'd gleefully go back to the days where I could be pushed out of a store with a shotgun just for being the wrong skin color.

Fuck them and fuck their racist bullshit [ronpaul.com] .

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (5, Interesting)

Nadaka (224565) | about a year ago | (#43961507)

The state is not the enemy of liberty (or more accurately, it does not have to be, and should not be).

Your liberty can be infringed by the action of any powerful entity, be it the state, a large corporation, a wealthy person or a simple thug.

The role of the state should be to protect your liberties, not just in theory but in practice. And that means regulating markets, providing a social safety net and providing a framework of laws that protect workers from abuse.

I agree with basic libertarian principals. Where you fail is economics. Despite popular belief, Adam Smith was not an advocate of the unregulated market. He wrote it as an overly simplified and imperfect model, nothing more. He also wrote extensively on its risks and limitations, which libertarians completely ignore in an irrational quest for dogmatic purity.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961303)

May your chains rest lightly upon you, my friend.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961071)

We get plenty of the "I'm/we're not telling you; you figure it out." song from bureaucracy already, might wanna pitch something new.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961197)

[...] you are definitely not someone we'd want participating in a truly representative government [...]

Ironically, a "truly representative" government should represent all the citizens, not just the ones who "can be bothered to educate themselves", or any other self-appointed subgroup.

FREEDOM!!!!1111!!11 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43960971)

What are you talking about, Commie????? It means Freedom!!!11!!!! God bless Ay-Murrrrka!!!111!!11

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961041)

According to the project page, it means people wo wish to take responsibility for themselves, rather than have the government run their lives.

While get your point that liberty-minded by itself isn't very specific, one thing it can't mean socialist. From Merriam-Webster:

Socialism: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
Liberty: the quality or state of being free

Obviously if everything is owned and controlled by the government, that's not freedom, liberty. Government control (socialism) is the precise opposite of liberty (control of your own life).

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (4, Insightful)

TWiTfan (2887093) | about a year ago | (#43961275)

I don't consider a system where the rich rule over the rest of us like unchecked gods to be very liberating (unless you're rich, of course--then it's pretty damned sweet).

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (3, Insightful)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961337)

Those that don't understand the difference between fascism and libertarianism are destined to live under fascism.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (3, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | about a year ago | (#43961559)

The economic aspect of modern libertarianism will inevitably leads to fascism.

Absolute economic "freedom" grants absolute economic license of the plutocrats to control every aspect of life for the people.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (3, Insightful)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961711)

The economic aspects of cleanliness inevitably lead to dirtiness.

You are currently claiming that a totally different economic system from what we have now will inevitably lead to the economic system we have now.

I've seen your argument a thousand times, and it just keeps getting more idiotic every time I see it.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (4, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | about a year ago | (#43961795)

We have had unregulated markets before, this is not new. They have always resulting in absolute concentration of wealth at the cost of the liberty, health and safety of the common man.

Many of the problems we currently face as the plutocrats grow in power are a result of deregulation, pushed by people who foolishly think they will get more liberty when in reality it just means that the powerful have more license to infringe on your liberty.

I've seen your argument a thousand times, and it just keeps getting more idiotic every time I see it.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961509)

That's libertarian utopia, though...

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | about a year ago | (#43961285)

Socialism: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

That's interesting. Which of the current socialist countries fit that definition?

(Not a rhetorical question.)

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

Nadaka (224565) | about a year ago | (#43961583)

Someone changed the definition of socialism.

Its ok, double think solves all these problems citizen.

Good enough for me (1)

pavon (30274) | about a year ago | (#43961077)

There will always be disagreement on some issues of policy. Unfortunately, preserving our fundamental freedoms and the checks and balances that ensure them seems to continually take backseat to all these other disagreements. Committing to uphold the constitution should be a prerequisite to serving in government, not something that is so low on people's priority that none of the candidates even discuss it in their campaign, and all of them violate it when elected. Assembling a large number of people who will put freedom first when deciding who to vote for will be a wonderful influence on our government, even (and perhaps especially) if the people they elect are split on other economic and social issues.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961085)

What it has meant in the case of the Free State Project is quoting Rush Limbaugh a lot and censoring the posts to the website whenever they are critical of behaviors of the 'liberty-minded' overlords, like for their frequently quoting Rush Limbaugh and censoring posts to the website. I'll have to admit it's rather amusing reading what the 'liberty-minded' write to defend censorship.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

PhilHibbs (4537) | about a year ago | (#43961117)

I thought this was an interesting idea, until I looked at the web site and all those things in that animated slideshow at the top say "Tea Party" to me. Guns, low taxes, no seatbelts, no state schools, that sounds like a nightmare to me. If you're going to go around with no seatbelt on, whose taxes are going to pay to clean up the mess when you spread your brains on the pavement? Or when you blow someone's head off?

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (4, Interesting)

mhajicek (1582795) | about a year ago | (#43961223)

There's a huge difference between not wanting to wear a seatbelt and not wanting to be forced to wear a seatbelt. I wear a helmet on my motorcycle, but I'm happy I'm not required to do so by law.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961243)

Since you obviously don't get it you won't be moving here - fortunately.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

mwvdlee (775178) | about a year ago | (#43961451)

How about the current citizens of NH that "don't get it"?

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961345)

Also, imagine the variation in education by locality. So this neighborhood has ex-professors. This neighborhood has ex-cops. Guess which neighborhood will have better educated kids?

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961383)

"Who pays?"

The individual, via insurance premiums.

Also, guns don't need to be legal for someone to use them to blow your head off. If you paid any attention AT ALL to actual crime statistics, you would see that the correlation is actually inverted (ie more guns==less crime).

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

Daemonik (171801) | about a year ago | (#43961605)

Except you go to make a claim against the insurance company and find out that surprise, they have no intention of ever paying you anything and have more than enough lawyers to keep you tied up in courts for longer than you'll live so go die already. Oh and your account has been canceled, because how dare you!

As for your statistics, stastistics are bullshit and I can pull enough statistics together to prove that the rise in Bronies is lowering crime stats if I want. Anybody can cherry pick stats.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961741)

I see you refuse to accept reality. I wonder if you can refuse to accept the consequences of refusing to accept reality?

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

Captain Hook (923766) | about a year ago | (#43961439)

If you're going to go around with no seatbelt on, whose taxes are going to pay to clean up the mess when you spread your brains on the pavement? Or when you blow someone's head off?

Well, in a proper Libertarian society, it would ultimately be the person who is held responsible for the accident who should be made to pay for all costs associated with putting the damage right. Although it would probably be something which has to be covered by private insurance because I don't think many individuals could afford the full costs, at least not at short notice.

Of course then you run into the problem of what happens when someone causes damage to infrastructure that everyone uses but doesn't have insurance which covers it. Should insurance be mandatory or should the state be the insurer of last resort, paying for repairs out of taxes? both of which in theory goes directly against the Libertarian ideal.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

jythie (914043) | about a year ago | (#43961141)

'Liberty' means having the government do what you want it to do and meeting your lifestyle choices, stopping other people from impacting your life while not preventing you from impacting other people's lives. Oh, and in the FSP's case, liberty also means taking away local's ability to form a government of their choosing and replacing it with one of their design.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961403)

So you are saying that we have perfect freedom right now? The Nazis were a free society too? Jesus Christ, you fucking people and your twisting of words to suit your feelings.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (5, Informative)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about a year ago | (#43961155)

WTF does that even mean? That could be anything from Libertarians who don't want to pay taxes to hippies wanting to set up a socialist utopia.

Liberty means that both of those groups should be able to do those things that they want, short of hurting others.

I'm a long-time NH resident, and have met several of the FSP early movers. That pretty well fits each one of them - let people do what they want, short of hurting others (oh, the horror). They're almost all strong on property rights (except for the odd Georgist or two) and favor peace and tolerance as the prevailing basis for society. Most favor sound money and work hard for private charity. There are already a few that live in something like a commune and the ones that are pro-markets and free enterprise are completely down with that - they think it's silly, but the commune-ists pose no threat to them.

It's probably a safe bet that none favor Greek-style central control, central banking, and a pervasive regulatory environment, or the US-style warfare/welfare state (corporate welfare being tops among them). Their statement of intent [freestateproject.org] says, "the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

I've worked with some of them at the State house on issues like the right to record public officials in their official duty, the prosecution of victimless crimes, and legalizing industrial hemp. The Earth is "full" as there are no unclaimed jurisdictions, so the new reality of the past century is that one cannot simply move to settle a new area with like-minded friends (e.g. Utah) - the only option left is to move en masse and gentrify an existing area.

It's certainly not for everybody - those who would rather be kept as pets should not move here, and that's the beauty of political migration - those who do wish to "Live Free or Die" can move here with the FSP and work to make this one beautiful spot of nine-thousand square miles the freest place on Earth.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1, Offtopic)

BigTunaTim (2777397) | about a year ago | (#43961355)

those who would rather be kept as pets should not move here

Jesus Christ. Can we cut off New Hampshire's access to the rest of the internet once these people are all corralled in a known location?

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961405)

It's certainly not for everybody - those who would rather be kept as pets should not move here

Ah, so they're just as bigoted and exclusionist as everyone else.
"You're welcome to live here as long as we like the way you live."

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961595)

"the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

It's that second one that's the doozy, because the LSP/Libertarian definition of "liberty" is to the rest of us about as relevant as when scientologists use the word "ethical." It's a "you keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means" moment when you realize what they really call "liberty."

The "libertarian" idea of liberty is that "government" becomes small. What happens then? Basically, all the abuses of the Gilded Age come back. Company towns and debt traps? You fucking betcha. Child labor abuse? Right back. Structures designed to prevent collective bargaining, which is the only answer to "take it or leave it, fuck you" level wages and the steady decrease of appropriate benefits and safety protection? All you have to do is look at the shitty state of labor in GOP-led states, where real jobs are abandoning Tex-ASS for minimum wage crap.

Libertarianism is the race to the bottom to benefit the oligarchs, nothing more and nothing less. The only people who have "liberty" when they're done are the rich, everyone else is chained by debt or abused by privatized thug enforcers. We have no further to look than our own history to see how it was and to see the sort of fucked-up world the libertarian morons idolize.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961713)

Unfortunately you don't represent my towns views, whose selectboard you attempted to stack with questionable tactics such as slandering sitting members through the illegal use of stacking post boxes without postage, a violation of federal law and common decency.
Freedom to do whatever "you" want?

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

bradgoodman (964302) | about a year ago | (#43961237)

As an NH resident - the view is that they are typically more extreme right wing. Gun-carrying, anti-government, militia-forming.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (1)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961445)

Right, because there is exactly "one" view.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (2, Informative)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | about a year ago | (#43961365)

Their definition of 'Liberty' is to submit to group think. They pretend that you are free to vote as you want (wink wink) but the idea is to transplant 20,000 libertarians into New Hampshire and introduce their political beliefs into that state. If you read the FAQ, you will notice that they don't consider current residents of New Hampshire as full members (they are allowed to subscribe to the newsletter). They do everything they can to not openly declare their intent since they don't want to be considered a political organization. They assume that the 20,000 members (i.e. artificially introduced voting block) will vote for the Libertarian candidate within the voting district that all 20,000 members agreed to reside.

The ability of a long time residents to continue to have their desired form of local government is not included in this group's definition of 'liberty'.

They are libertarians... (1)

denzacar (181829) | about a year ago | (#43961627)

Also, Ron Paul supporters... [nationaljournal.com] apparently gravitating to the Republican side.

Though, my favorite quote is this:

"A lot of people who follow the rabbit hole of liberty have already lost their friends and family to begin with, because they're willfully ignorant of something we believe very strongly in," he said. "And what we're creating is an individualist, intentional community, and I point out the individualist part because we're not a commune or a cult or anything; people can live wherever they want."

In other words, these are folks who are too radical for their own friends and family due to their extremist political beliefs.
They also find themselves to be the only "sane" people around.

Re:"Liberty-Minded"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961657)

More the former, it is a bunch of big "L" Libertarian party of America fascists. The liberty minded people they speak of are ultraconservatives who would like to pay no taxes, while simultaneously believing it is OK to persecute anyone with a differing opinion on things like religion, personal liberty, etc. There is also a subset of completely stupid, Objectivist gulchers who want to live on a gold economy, and want a completely unregulated business landscape, because rich people are naturally better than everyone else and will not mistreat workers.

big effect (-1, Troll)

slashmydots (2189826) | about a year ago | (#43960877)

Just think of all the additional government funding that will be needed for mental health services when all the people stupid and deranged enough to actually do this move there. They must be really pro-big government.

Re:big effect (1)

Jawnn (445279) | about a year ago | (#43960959)

They must be really pro-big government.

Couldn't be bothered to RTFA, eh?

Re:big effect (1)

Captain Hook (923766) | about a year ago | (#43961031)

*whoosh*

Re:big effect (0)

slashmydots (2189826) | about a year ago | (#43961047)

Perhaps I need to spell it out for you. Are you one of those people by the way? Anyway, all these lunatic mental patient activist hippie ass clowns move there. Then the government needs to dump more money into mental services for these idiots. So the joke is that they're all for big government with lots of services because they're causing them by putting so many deranged people in one area.

Re:big effect (1)

Dthief (1700318) | about a year ago | (#43961143)

Probably would be more efficient to have one literal "crazy town" with 20,000 "crazies", than to have services spread across the country......sounds to me like they are all about cost-cutting.

Re:big effect (1)

NatasRevol (731260) | about a year ago | (#43961363)

Make them responsible for themselves, with no gun laws.

Should sort itself out pretty quickly.

Re:big effect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43960973)

There is a stretch of highway in southern NH (state road 101 I believe) that is actually sponsored by the Free State Project.

So yes, irony is still dead.

Liberty loving? (2, Insightful)

Nadaka (224565) | about a year ago | (#43960905)

These are libertarians, While they do support many liberties, they utterly fail on economic concepts, and are looking to negate liberty through plutocracy via corporate proxy.

Re:Liberty loving? (1)

Errol backfiring (1280012) | about a year ago | (#43961063)

In other words, they're just like any existing western country.

Re:Liberty loving? (1)

tmosley (996283) | about a year ago | (#43961489)

>libertarian
>using corporations

Pick one.

You people keep lying about libertarianism is, trying to conflate it with its opposite. What is your motivation in doing this?

Re:Liberty loving? (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about a year ago | (#43961515)

That's not what they think they're doing (assuming they're not cryptofascists), they deny the existence of economic power and think that widespread deregulation will lead to more personal liberty.

Re:Liberty loving? (1)

Nadaka (224565) | about a year ago | (#43961677)

That may be what they think they are doing, but that is a grossly uninformed belief.

Re:Liberty loving? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961769)

Please do no paint all libertarians with the same brush. You are describing the Libertarian Party of America a conservative organization that has usurped the name for obvious doublespeak reasons. Classical/Left Libertarianism, believes in self ownership, total social liberty and the collective ownership of natural resources by the people of a nation.

Seriously? (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | about a year ago | (#43960915)

Okay, now how do you stretch "News for Nerds" to this?

Re:Seriously? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43960977)

They're hacking politics.

Re:Seriously? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961005)

Slashdot has been filled with the THEYLL TAKE 'ER GUNS! libertarian crowd for years and years.

Re:Seriously? (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | about a year ago | (#43961329)

Slashdot has been filled with the THEYLL TAKE 'ER GUNS! libertarian crowd for years and years.

Interestingly, they don't dominate the discussion around here anymore, like they did at the time of the original article.

Re:Seriously? (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | about a year ago | (#43961055)

A large majority of nerds seem to appreciate having freedom. The populace at large could learn a lot from those then ridiculed in school.

Re:Seriously? (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | about a year ago | (#43961119)

A large majority of nerds like cereal. Doesn't mean random news stories about cereal movements are relevant either.

Re:Seriously? (4, Funny)

Qzukk (229616) | about a year ago | (#43961159)

cereal movements

Thanks to my big bowl of fiber every morning, I can move mountains!

Re:Seriously? (1)

Nerdfest (867930) | about a year ago | (#43961359)

If nerds like cereal, that would be relevant.

Re:Seriously? (2)

NatasRevol (731260) | about a year ago | (#43961401)

gluten-free is our battle cry!

Re:Seriously? (2)

The name is Dave. Ja (845139) | about a year ago | (#43961517)

There you go, pouring cold water (or milk) all over our Freedom to enjoy news stories about relevant cereal movements. You sir are a ... cereal killer.

Re:Seriously? (1, Informative)

Daemonik (171801) | about a year ago | (#43961187)

A large majority of nerds are anti-social, high on the autism spectrum and have never lived outside of their parents house while they read Randian screeds how they'll one day take over the world as the 'parasites' burn and masturbate to the photos from the hidden cam they installed in the girls restroom at school. FTFY

Re:Seriously? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961593)

How "social" is it of you to generalize an entire group of people? Perhaps you should look in a mirror to find those anti-social tendencies.

Re:Seriously? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961597)

A large majority of nerds seem to appreciate having freedom. The populace at large could learn a lot from those then ridiculed in school.

That's a huge assumption. Using your unfounded statement as a launching point, I could say that since a large majority of nerds have underdeveloped social skills, they tend to favor libertarianism since they rather be left alone. Of course since these same nerds are young adults that spent most of their lives living with their parents, they have no concept of what it is like to actually have to support themselves or start from scratch.

Their parents purchased their first computer for them and supported their education, they lived off of student loans, and for the most part haven't actually faced their first financial crises as an adult. Despite the fact that they always depended on their family and governmental student loans, they pretend that their life would be better off if the government programs didn't exist.

If you ask a young adult libertarian what their political motivations are you'll be disappointed to find out that their only concern is the ability to self medicate.

Re:Seriously? (4, Interesting)

thrich81 (1357561) | about a year ago | (#43961079)

An AC basically just said the same thing -- Slashdot seems to have a very large contingent of "Libertarians", some rational, some unhinged. How this happened continues to be a subject of discussion among my techy friends. This isn't "News for Nerds" but it does cater to much of the Slashdot readership, both the Libertarians and we who are interested, but not convinced, by their arguments.

Re:Seriously? (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about a year ago | (#43961565)

I know that conspiracy nuts who happen to be libertarians are quite common in the tech field, even far from the US where the "distrust government WITH THE FORCE OF A THOUSAND SUNS!" culture doesn't exist.

Re:Seriously? (4, Insightful)

fallen1 (230220) | about a year ago | (#43961145)

It is easy to equate this with "News for Nerds" -- they are hacking a system while attempting to use the system against itself in order to bring about change. It is also a learning process. This is the epitome of what hackers and other creative people used to embody -- and what many of us should strive for now. Learn, grow, change (for the better, we hope) instead of just maintaining the status quo.

All it takes is one "domino" to fall the right way and systemic change is created - even if it takes years for that domino to fall. The things get exciting.

Re:Seriously? (3, Informative)

jythie (914043) | about a year ago | (#43961247)

While not tech specific, the libertarian movement has pretty strong representation among the tech community. It is a very popular philosophy among people who make a bit more then the general public, live a comfortable lifestyle, and generally do not interact with other segments of the population.

Re:Seriously? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961487)

They have a website! duh

Answer: "Your Rights Online" (1)

SirGarlon (845873) | about a year ago | (#43961497)

A lot of people who work in technology care about the impact it has on society and on individuals' lives. To me, for example, the dumb pipes of the Internet are only interesting because of what you can *do* with them: from checking the basketball scores to organizing the Arab Spring. This is why Slashdot as a "Your Rights Online" category.

So to get to "news for nerds" to "update on the free state project" is about 3 hops: nerds -> Internet freedom -> libertarian platform -> libertarian group.

Disclaimer: I don't call myself a libertarian but I agree with some libertarian policy goals.

I am not from USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43960925)

But if i had a chance, I'd move in there. Not that i am not happy here in Germany or something... I like idea.

Re:I am not from USA (1)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about a year ago | (#43961305)

The FSP's president is a political refugee from South Africa. It's still in the US, so you have to take your chances with the work visa lottery, but give it a shot! The potential downside is wasting time with some paperwork.

Re:I am not from USA (1, Insightful)

Daemonik (171801) | about a year ago | (#43961319)

Libertarianism sounds like a nice idea, on paper. Until you get sick from the unregulated chemicals in your Libertarian Utopian job, discover that your Libertarian Health Care determines this to be a pre-existing condition and drops your coverage, your at will employer fires you from your non-union job (remember, you have freedom but don't even think about forming a Union, Liberty!) and all your savings are wiped out in yet another unregulated stock market collapse. Then you're cold, sick and homeless and wondering why nobody cares that you did everything the way you were supposed to and still failed miserably so go die in a hole and by the way there's a $10 hole fee.

Re:I am not from USA (3, Insightful)

metiscus (1270822) | about a year ago | (#43961771)

don't even think about forming a Union, Liberty!

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free")[1] is a set of related political philosophies that uphold liberty as the highest political end.[2][3] This includes emphasis on the primacy of individual liberty,[4][5] political freedom, and voluntary association. A voluntary association or union (also sometimes called a voluntary organization, unincorporated association, common-interest association,[1]:266 or just an association) is a group of individuals who enter into an agreement as volunteers to form a body (or organization) to accomplish a purpose.

Sounds like Unions are fine so long as they are voluntary.

Good luck... (2)

magic maverick (2615475) | about a year ago | (#43961065)

I'm an anarchist. I want a society free from capitalism, the state, and other forms of hierarchy. (Oooh look, communism.)

But even so, I can see benefits in working within the state while we wait for the mythical general strike that will bring down the government and implement the seeds of a new society.

And so I can see the benefits of this style of mass migration. Except, good luck. It ain't working is it. They don't even have 20 000 people after ten years!

Besides, they are still capitalists most of them aren't they. They don't want true liberty, just liberty to accumulate wealth and oppress others that way. And any attempt to go against the wishes of the actual rich (as opposed to the merely wanna be rich) will result in them being shutdown by whichever police force got the bribe quickest. Freedom doesn't just come, you have to fight for it.

Re:Good luck... (1)

moeinvt (851793) | about a year ago | (#43961361)

"It ain't working is it."

I dare say that the Free State Project and New Hampshire liberty activists have accomplished more than the Libertarian party and many other "liberty" organizations.
The NH activists have been engaging in steady civil disobedience on a number of fronts, suffering harassment and arrest from the government. I call that "fighting" for liberty. How much have you been doing to "fight"? Working within the state apparatus is just a side show. These folks have been working to make the government irrelevant.

Re:Good luck... (2)

Black Parrot (19622) | about a year ago | (#43961447)

And any attempt to go against the wishes of the actual rich (as opposed to the merely wanna be rich) will result in them being shutdown by whichever police force got the bribe quickest. Freedom doesn't just come, you have to fight for it.

If you're a bank executive you can make unethical gambles with other people's money, try to hide your losses, and bring down the world economy putting millions of people out of work. Go to jail? No, you don't even lose your annual bonus that's worth more than most people earn in 50 lifetimes.

But if you paint a sign and get out in the streets to protest, you run a serious risk of being billy-clubbed and pepper-sprayed by the police.

Re:Good luck... (1)

Daemonik (171801) | about a year ago | (#43961783)

If you're a bank executive you can make unethical gambles with other people's money, try to hide your losses, and bring down the world economy putting millions of people out of work. Go to jail? No, you don't even lose your annual bonus that's worth more than most people earn in 50 lifetimes.

But if you paint a sign and get out in the streets to protest, you run a serious risk of being billy-clubbed and pepper-sprayed by the police.

Guess which one of those two is most likely to be a Libertarian.

Re:Good luck... (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about a year ago | (#43961625)

You'd need either another form of hierarchy or a preferable alternative (post-scarcity stuff) to be free from capitalism. Capitalism is as natural as predator-prey relationships. Even some animals practice capitalism (penguins paying for sex with good nest-building rocks, for example).

The Free Staters chose my town as the test bed (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961091)

They chose my home town as the test bed.
They attempted to stack the select board with their members using unscrupulous means such as slander stuffing mailboxes without stamps in violation of federal rules.
There is some good as they oppose wind development which largely benefits out of state interests and decimates local ridgetops. As a group they seem like nice folks, kind of like right wing hippies ; )
However they are subverting the will of the public by attempting to hijack local and state politics and a similar bunch has devastated the legislature at the state level and made many questionable laws in defiance of the majority of the electorate.

Re:The Free Staters chose my town as the test bed (1)

Nimey (114278) | about a year ago | (#43961249)

So they're of the "our kind of freedom whether you like it or not" school of libertarianism. Can't say I'm surprised given that their plan was always to coopt the NH state government.

Re:The Free Staters chose my town as the test bed (1)

CodeBuster (516420) | about a year ago | (#43961521)

Can't say I'm surprised given that their plan was always to coopt the NH state government.

And the left hasn't done the same sorts of things in other places, notably in California? Getting enough people who vote a certain way so as to consolidate political power in a particular area or state has long been a tactic employed or at least taken advantage of by the left, so why should we criticize these Americans for moving, as is their right, to a state of their choice in order to concentrate their voting power?

Re:The Free Staters chose my town as the test bed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961531)

Kinda like what the left did in Vermont!

Re:The Free Staters chose my town as the test bed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961621)

I question how they have done what you claim in a democratic republic.

I think the majority of people simply don't care enough to do anything about it. You know, the same reason we now have universal wiretaps and multiple anal probe stations in every airport. So it seems to me that you can sit back and let these guys bring the power back to you, or you can fight them (which you have shown you have no will to do), or you can move to Dumfuckistan or the Democratic Republic of Libtardia. Those are your options.

If all else fails... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961137)

...you can always flee across the border to Canada.

Moving from Ohio I hope (0)

RPGonAS400 (956583) | about a year ago | (#43961157)

I can only hope the "liberal-minded activists" are moving from Ohio. We can use less of them here. I am always embarassed for people with Obama bumper stickers still on their car.

A curious thing about NH... (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about a year ago | (#43961185)

Curiously, for a state whose motto is "Live free or die", NH continues to permit a government monopoly on the sale of any booze punchier than beer or wine. Those two can be purchased at grocery and convenience stores; but if you want the hard stuff it's off to one of the state's state-owned liquor distribution facilities.

We'll change that! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961357)

And that's what we're trying to change!

When we're done, you'll be able to get hard liquor at any store, guns at any store, and ammo at any store and none of this horseshit of IDs to see if you're old enough or any of this back ground check crap!

Government will be completely voluntary and therefore free.

Law enforcement will be done by the individual - caught breaking into grandmas? Well you're gonna get yer ass shot off! Young hoodie wearing suspicious looking kid? Well now, boy! WTF are YOU hanging around here fer? You're obviously up to no good - boy. Look'in at me like that - boy - is gonna get yer ass shot off.

My land is my land. If I wanna dump anti-freeze on my property or other peoples anti-freeze, it's non of yer bizness. Neither are my hand-grenades and rocket launchers.

Yeseree bob, I can't wait for the Freedom!

Live Free or Die... (1)

MachineShedFred (621896) | about a year ago | (#43961205)

So you want to show a difference in libertarian policy, and you choose New Hampshire as your test bed? New Hampshire is already one of the most libertarian states out there, and the capitol of "retail politics" due to it's state in the primary process. The state's motto is "Live Free or Die" already (joked to be changed to "Live Free or Cheap"), you think they come about that one by accident, or because they already espouse these values?

Tainted data from the start.

Re:Live Free or Die... (1)

Entropius (188861) | about a year ago | (#43961433)

The FSP'ers have said that they've picked NH because their views are already fairly well-aligned with what the FSP wants to do.

Re:Live Free or Die... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961547)

So in slashdot terms...

"We're gonna test how well our car works by using this road that is already slanted and going downhill in the general direction we want"

Too bad they chose NH.... (5, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | about a year ago | (#43961371)

AS there are no JOBS in NH... From the beginning this "project" screamed, "for rich people only" because those are the only ones that can just uproot their lives and move without having to have a job.

Re:Too bad they chose NH.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961571)

Or poor people who live off the government teat.

Re:Too bad they chose NH.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#43961615)

Or poor people who live off the government teat.

New Hampshire has some of the worst welfare programs in the country -- there are very few people who do so there. Northern NH is poor, but largely unsupportedly poor.

Somalia? (1, Flamebait)

PineGreen (446635) | about a year ago | (#43961457)

I don't know what these people are trying to prove. We know communism doesn't work, because we've tried it in eastern Europe. We also know that libertarism doesn't work, because take any failed African state and you see that people don't self organize into well-functioning society.
Besides, I really despise these smug libertarians, who thump their chests about liberty and privacy and are not even remotely aware how much they got from this society, not to mention they they are not willing to give any of it back in taxes... Big egos, little brain and compassion.

 

Re:Somalia? (3, Interesting)

moeinvt (851793) | about a year ago | (#43961737)

"failed African STATE" (emphasis added)

Let's overlook the fact that European interventionism disrupted the natural development of African societies. You take a country in Africa, force the people to live under a brutal dictatorship until a civil war eventually topples the dictator. Then, subject the state to multiple foreign military invasions.

THIS is your anecdotal evidence to "prove" that libertarianism doesn't work and that people can't possibly self-organize?

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