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KWin Maintainer: Fanboys and Trolls Are the Cancer Killing Free Software

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the also:-language-arguments,-phone-debates,-console-wars dept.

Open Source 406

An anonymous reader writes "Martin Gräßlin, maintainer of the KWin window manager, writes an informative blog post about his experiences with the less favorable pockets of the Free Software community. Quoting: 'Years ago I had a clear political opinion. I was a civil-rights activist. I appreciated freedom and anything limiting freedom was a problem to me. Freedom of speech was one of the most important rights for me. I thought that democracy has to be able to survive radical or insulting opinions. In a democracy any opinion should have a right even if it's against democracy. I had been a member of the lawsuit against data preservation in Germany. I supported the German Pirate Party during the last election campaign because of a new censorship law. That I became a KDE developer is clearly linked to the fact that it is a free software community. But over the last years my opinion changed. Nowadays I think that not every opinion needs to be tolerated. I find it completely acceptable to censor certain comments and encourage others to censor, too. What was able to change my opinion in such a radical way? After all I still consider civil rights as extremely important. The answer is simple: Fanboys and trolls.'"

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406 comments

Wow, just wow. (0, Troll)

mcgrew (92797) | about a year ago | (#44044023)

I read it. Pretty lame, and I've been using KDE for ten years (skipped 4, it sucked). There wasn't one rational reason stated why censorship is a good thing, just WAAH!! OMG, TROLLS AND FLAMERS!

I can't agree with a single thing he said in the article. If you get even the tiniest bit of recognition you're going to have that. From 1998 to 2002 I had a fairly popular Quake site that was popular enough that every mega site wanted to host me. Yeah, I got hate mail, but not much, and so fucking what anyway? 95% of the mail was YOU ROCK, DUDE!!

This guy needs to grow up and grow a pair. Haters don't hurt open source, and BTW, I HATE GNOME!

Re:Wow, just wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044071)

I don't get it. What does free speech have to do with censoring comments on a website? He seemed to be talking about government censorship being bad, and then he said that.

Re:Wow, just wow. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044287)

It's simple.
In the wake of the NSA scandals, you have all sorts of people who want to support their side (aka the good guys) and make sure the other side (aka the bad guys) don't score political points on them.
So you see all these new and interesting mental gymnastics: "I supported free speech, but honestly it's over-rated. It's no big deal really. Illegal search and seizure?It's been going on for a long time now and we're safer! People are happier with fewer rights!"

And then because these thoughts become a total mess in their minds, they start making arguments that make no sense - like TFA. If it's your server, feel free to say whatever you want and let speak whoever you want. You have a right to to say whatever you want - but you do not have the right to force yourself to be heard. If you say something dumb on another person's server, it is their property and they can expunge it. If you say something dumb on your server, feel free to do so - no one can stop you - but there's no one who will be forced to visit your site to actually read it.

The point of the free speech amendment is make sure THE GOVERNMENT cannot decide that YOU will say whatever THEY want on YOUR servers.

Re:Wow, just wow. (4, Insightful)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a year ago | (#44044571)

In the wake of the NSA scandals, you have all sorts of people who want to support their side (aka the good guys) and make sure the other side (aka the bad guys) don't score political points on them.

It's older than that: this is exactly how so many Obama supporters went from being pro-transparency, anti-wars, anti-Guantanamo, anti-torture, etc. to anti-transparency, pro-wars, pro-waterboarding. They have to support their "side" at all costs, even when it means reversing their opinions.

The point of the free speech amendment is make sure THE GOVERNMENT cannot decide that YOU will say whatever THEY want on YOUR servers.

Exactly. Free speech is something we should uphold, but it doesn't mean that any private party has a responsibility to provide a platform for someone they don't agree with. If I have a blog, I can say whatever the hell I want on it. If people make comments on it, and I agree with them, I'll let them stand. If some troll (or anyone else I disagree with) says something I don't like, I'm free to delete it, because it's my blog, not theirs. If they want to exercise their free speech, they can do it on their own blog. It's only censorship when the government prevents you from exercising your free speech rights.

Re:Wow, just wow. (4, Insightful)

causality (777677) | about a year ago | (#44044635)

I don't get it. What does free speech have to do with censoring comments on a website? He seemed to be talking about government censorship being bad, and then he said that.

If you believe that censorship is fundamentally wrong then you have two choices: 1) Be a hypocrite and pretend it's different when you do it, or 2) don't censor content on your own Web site either. This KWin maintainer is choosing the first option. What he doesn't seem to appreciate is easy enough to understand: if the trolls can cause him to abandon one of his core beliefs and make a hypocrite of himself, then that's a victory for the trolls and a defeat for himself. It reminds me of how certain nations respond to terrorism by eliminating freedoms -- if the terrorists want to do as much lasting harm as possible, then they must be delighted by that.

This near-obsession with treating government as a special case even when the discussion is about abstract principles is why you were confused. Government is only a special case when the discussion is about censorship via the legal system, because government is the only entity legally allowed to use force or threat of force to achieve its goals. A Web site operator isn't going to arrest a troll and throw him in jail so that just doesn't apply here. Said operator might, however, delete certain posts or ban certain users to effect censorship.

I think our society in general is losing the ability to think in terms of abstract principles (part of why privacy is eroding). This is why we have to rehash the same old "but but .. government!" discussion every single time censorship is mentioned regardless of context. It's a nearly indestructible meme it would seem. You will probably be fired if you tell your boss to go fuck himself and that, too, is a form of censorship. Anyway, this is like a GPL vs. BSD license discussion -- check the Slashdot archives and you'll find that every conceivable point and counterpoint has already been debated ad nauseum.

Re:Wow, just wow. (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | about a year ago | (#44044117)

Exactly. Trolls and fanboys are a signal-to-noise issue, nothing more.

Re:Wow, just wow. (1)

MobSwatter (2884921) | about a year ago | (#44044203)

Yep, declaration of war on a war tactic worked so well the first time huh?

Re:Wow, just wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044237)

The fact that Firefox likes to antagonize their users by playing musical chairs with their UI components every release isn't really a user-antagonizing hassle, it's just trolls and IE fanboys who think so.

Trolls and fanboys, by the way, are everybody who doesn't agree with me. Except the fanboys who do agree with me. Some fanboys are okay, when they're mine.

In other news, Obama and the NSA dismissed mounting criticism of sweeping spy powers and unpopular intervention abroad, jointly stating that, "It's just a bunch of trolls and fanboys" complaining "against the greater good" of what's best for them.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Wow, just wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044547)

What about astroturfers? People who are paid to show FOSS projects in a bad light and have teams of researchers backing them?

Re:Wow, just wow. (1, Interesting)

icebike (68054) | about a year ago | (#44044131)

Agreed, it was obviously the first time this kid (he acts like a kid) got his feelings hurt by the very
free speech he has been championing all along.

Welcome to the internet kid, grow a skin or log off.

KDE 4 deserved all the badmouthing it got in the early days. Its fine now, stable and works great very well.
But back then it needed a bashing, and it generally got it. And the arrogant spew that was returned
in the face of any criticism pretty much set the tone for the long fight that followed.

Disclaimer: I like KDE, I've used every version, I still use it today.
I was very vocal against the near death of KDE caused by the developer's arrogance.

Re:Wow, just wow. (5, Interesting)

Moryath (553296) | about a year ago | (#44044181)

There wasn't one rational reason stated why censorship is a good thing

Really? How about the idea that having a bunch of lame-ass mooches, trolls, and flamers causing nothing but drama increases the stress level of developers and causes them to abandon projects entirely?

That's a net loss for EVERYONE. The projects don't complete or get kicked way back on deadline waiting for someone else to pick them up, learn the code, learn to extend it, and finish it off. If they ever do, since those same lame-ass trolls and flamers are waiting to pounce again.

This guy needs to grow up and grow a pair.

OR, the lame-ass trolls need to grow up.

Look, I get it. You're 14, you live in your parents' basement, and to you swearing is only nominally less exciting than a furtive glimpse at a pair of tits. You think it makes you sound grown up. Used in moderation, it can. But there's a right way and a wrong way to phrase things, a right way and a wrong way to handle conflict, and a right and wrong way to deal with drama.

The problem with trolls, fanboys and flamers in this context is that they increase rather than decrease the drama levels and stress levels. Rather than putting out fires and being a little diplomatic, they throw gasoline on fires and expect the house to still be standing after the inferno.

Bad move. It destroys projects and drives people away from open source. Hell, the reason I never made the jump to using Linux on the desktop was my own experiences trying to set up a Mythbox in my living room; because I didn't have the exact hardware that one of the developers had, asked for some help, got shouted at "RTFM you fucking loser" over and over again when the documentation was crap and had no relevance to the situation I was asking about... screw it. I'm not going to try to navigate the 300:1 odds of finding someone helpful among that lame-ass crowd in order to try to use F/OSS and I can understand why it drives developers away too!

Re:Wow, just wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044359)

This applies to many projects that are decentralized and community based. Generally the people who create the most grief and drama are the ones contributing the least, and the contributors end up chasing the fires the trolls create instead of working on the real problems. It burns people out and they want to stop helping.

Re:Wow, just wow. (1)

oldhack (1037484) | about a year ago | (#44044375)

Look, I get it. You're 14, you live in your parents' basement... The problem with trolls, fanboys and flamers...

You are a case of a flamer flaming flamers. :)

Re:Wow, just wow. (2, Insightful)

Nyder (754090) | about a year ago | (#44044379)

OR, the lame-ass trolls need to grow up.

Sure, trolls need to grow up (I know i need to grow up and I like to do my fair share of trolling), but to expect everyone else to change is stupid. This is the internet, this is how it is. You get trolls, fanboys and corporate shrills in forums. If you want to moderate your forums, cool, have fun. But to bitch about it ruining stuff? Really? You just told the trolls that they won by publicly bitching about them.

 

Re:Wow, just wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044517)

Shrill shills?

Re:Wow, just wow. (5, Insightful)

icebike (68054) | about a year ago | (#44044405)

Look, I get it. You're 14, you live in your parents' basement,

Way to improve the level of discourse.

On the other hand, you've pretty well proved your own point about trolls and moochers causing drama.
Well played sir.

Re:Wow, just wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044481)

If you run a site, you set the terms of service. Yes, your software is free. But you decide what offenses qualify for THE HOLY BAN-HAMMER OF JUSTICE. I used my quite liberally. Sometimes comedically. Don't be whiny. I don't consider their opinions any less valid. That doesn't mean I have to let trolls run rampant on my site.

Re:Wow, just wow. (1)

Kjella (173770) | about a year ago | (#44044551)

Yes, and I think his description of the passive-aggressive attitude of fanboys are pretty spot on too, particularly this bit:

Obviously GNOME Shell and Unity are only an example. We can observe the same kind of cognitive dissonance with KDE fanboys. An example I can observe in regular intervals is that "the next version is much better and solves all problems" whenever a user is reporting about instabilities or other problems. The fact that another user is experiencing problems is challenging the beliefs of the fanboys which can be resolved by stating that the next version resolves it. We can see these comments for each version since 4.1.

Also known as "the boy who cried wolf" and you can only take so much of it before you go into "stop wasting my time trying to make me try the same broken thing you lying sack of shit" mode. Note that the same argument is also automatically used to invalidate any opinion that is more than five minutes old, since things are "totally different" now. And that attack is the best defense is popular in all walks of life, if you find your choice hard to defend go attack everything else as being worse. Another thing I see in forums that don't have moderation like /. does is trying to win by flooding the comment field, like there's 300 comments and 50-100 are from the same person aggressively assaulting anyone that posts anything that doesn't fit his opinion. It certainly makes it a total waste to read the comments.

On the other hand, a filtered version of the truth isn't the same as an unfiltered version. If you see a blog with nothing but praises, it's rather obvious comments are being moderated and that you won't be able to read what people really thinks about the subject. If you want constructive discussion you moderate to stay between the extremes where it is wiped out by the mud slinging and being wiped out because dissenting opinion is not permitted. But if you want public debate, well it's often not very constructive it's more of shouting match, people with closed minds and no intention of changing their position trading blows. Not too much different from politics really.

He needs to grow up (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044589)

"How about the idea that having a bunch of lame-ass mooches, trolls, and flamers causing nothing but drama increases the stress level of developers"

It's just that - an IDEA. I read things on the internet all the time that I don't agree with. If I post on certain forums I get flamed for daring to THINK too much, I get accused of being a 'troll' (which means "He made me THINK too much, and I can't defend my insane brainwashing, so I have to silence him"). I get banned all the time from various forums, despite the fact that my posts are always polite, no swearing, no threats, no personal attacks - but I dare to question the 'truth' as the scum who run the media tell you, and since most people are brainwashed cretins who can't think for themselves, most forums will ban you as soon as you start to question the rubbish that the T.V. told you. But so what - I feel NO emotions at all when I read these personal attacks, or get banned, etc. It's only words on a computer screen.
Of course, for the cretins who can't think, words on a computer screen are too much for them to bear, so they have to BAN people for making them think.

Re:Wow, just wow. (1)

oldhack (1037484) | about a year ago | (#44044263)

American perspective vs. German(/European).

Yeah, yeah, stereotypes are evil, yaddy yah, but you know it's true.

Re:Wow, just wow. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044307)

There wasn't one rational reason stated why censorship is a good thing

That's because he doesn't understand that "censorship" is a vague term which he failed to properly define.

I am a civil rights activist. Your right to be free from government sponsored censorship is, IMHO, a fundamental pillar of Liberty. That is not at ALL the same as a non-government entity choosing what comments it wants to display. Don't get me wrong, in many cases I despise the way server and forum owners try to regulate discussions and information... but it's their right to choose what is said in their name, or hosted on their forums.

And if you're going to be hard-line like you seem to be, you'll browse slashdot at -1 and never rate comments.

Re:Wow, just wow. (4, Insightful)

I'm New Around Here (1154723) | about a year ago | (#44044471)

And if you're going to be hard-line like you seem to be, you'll browse slashdot at -1 and never rate comments.

I browse at -1 (damn that goat.cx bastard, that lame posting is over a decade old), but I use the mod points I receive. Just a few days ago in fact. I modded up 3 posts I don't agree and 1 I do agree with, because they all made good arguments for their position.

The fifth one was a mod down for a crap argument. I debated whether I should let it pass, but it was a really bad argument. I didn't mod it down just because I disagreeed, I modded it Overrated in the hope the writer will improve his rhetoric down the line.

Even for civil rights activists, I think rating comments is fine as long as you mod up or down based on the post itself, not on your own views.

Re:Wow, just wow. (4, Insightful)

Z34107 (925136) | about a year ago | (#44044337)

Except he doesn't give two shits about trolls. He's worried about fanboys:

I can tolerate trolls as itâ(TM)s much easier to handle them. But fanboys are only there to harm you to diminish your work so that their world view doesnâ(TM)t break.

His point is that fanboys take as a given that their favorite software is perfect, and then engage in rabid apologetics to justify their position. In the face of change, they will quite literally invent reasons as to why their worldview is still correct.

Put another way: To someone who thinks "GNOME rocks => KDE sucks", nothing you can do to KDE will change their mind--it's still not GNOME, therefore it still sucks, and they'll create another justification as to why that is, forever and ever.

Since whatever purported problem isn't a real flaw, and fixing it won't make the fanboy happy, fretting over their posts is probably the worst thing you can do as a developer. And if listening to a fanboy can only do you harm, why let them derail all discussion and rob you of your chance to hear from those who can help you?

TL;DR--fanboys don't help discussion, and that's a problem if you depend on that discussion. It's not just butthurt.

Re:Wow, just wow. (4, Interesting)

icebike (68054) | about a year ago | (#44044577)

Put another way: To someone who thinks "GNOME rocks => KDE sucks", nothing you can do to KDE will change their mind--it's still not GNOME, therefore it still sucks, and they'll create another justification as to why that is, forever and ever.

Actually it can be read exactly the opposite:

The fanboy, (often the developer, or the developer's hangers on) won't hear any criticism, because such people are trolls, and instead make up any excuse and call anyone names who dares complain about any change, or point out the the emperors new clothes lack certain key features. There then ensues a great shout down from the developers inflicted on their own user-base. The perfect storm of bad user relations.

Instead of saying,

ok, yeah we can see how that might be counter productive for your use case, so lets put in a switch that you can continue to use the rest of the new package but fall back to the old method till we get this new stuff up to your liking

the developer community ends up saying

hey, its free software, download it and fix it any way you want, otherwise STFU or go run Gnome or Windows

Even when they happen to take the latter approach with a coder capable of digging through the mountain of code and making the change, they will not accept and merge the outside coder's changes, and they will apply patches to their branch that render the coder's changes impossible in the future.

Case in point: The Dolphin file manager in KDE4 couldn't begin to match all of the powerful feature of Konqueror of KDE3.5. Early KDE4 adopters were opting to still use Konqueror file manager (as well as bitching vocally). So the developers, instead of spending their time bringing Dolphin up to Kong's capabilities, went in and gutted Kong, and piped it over Dolphin wearing Kong's clothing. Rather than admit Dolphin wasn't ready for prime time, they maliciously removed any ability to make a comparison, any bridge that would keep the users happy. Sabotage! Utterly childish, utterly unnecessary.
 

Re:Wow, just wow. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044467)

I'd be okay if things were improving with KDE; they're not (always). I see a lot of tunnel vision.

I read some of his retorts to commenters on his site.
I think he's too sensitive. Talented people tend to be this way. In the olde days,
those types of people never saw the light of day. Now, they''re thrown into the light
and they're not prepared. It's not a knock against them, it's a skill they lack.

But censoring stuff like that is counter-productive. Just sayin' Even if it's his name on the site.
Then don't run a site if you're every one to be gentile and polite with you. I worked with
some very smart people who had the social skills of a badger. You just accept them
for who they are.

Re:Wow, just wow. (2)

sootman (158191) | about a year ago | (#44044611)

Some people act out of pure malice. There IS such thing as people who not only don't contribute, they have a SUBSTANTIAL net negative effect on a project, and they are doing it on purpose. This is destructive behavior and it should be eliminated. Period.

> Yeah, I got hate mail, but not much, and so
> fucking what anyway? 95% of the mail was
> YOU ROCK, DUDE!!

Well good for you. What if it was 95% negative? 98%? 99%? 100%? At what point would you decide "fuck this, it isn't worth it."? What if all your mail was "you're wasting your life, how can you waste time on a game when people are starving? go do something useful!"

Also: different people are different. It's not up to you to decide how much crap anyone should accept, because I guaranfuckingtee you, there are some things that piss you off ROYALLY that I don't mind at all, and you wouldn't be very happy if it was up to me to decide how much of that you had to deal with. How would you like to work with a dead, maggot-infested cat on your desk, or in a room with flickering lights, or with loud rap/country/ska/harpsichord/whatever music playing, or surrounded by ugly naked people? What if you sat on a barstool and your boss kicked it out from under you every time he walked by?

Finally: he has facts on his side. Ask any sociologist "do negative people have a negative effect on a group's performance?" and you will hear a "yes" EVERY FUCKING TIME. No argument here -- it's fucking MEASURABLE. It's fucking REPEATABLE. It's fucking SCIENCE. Asking people to put up with bad behavior when they don't have to is STUPID.

CUZ KDE SUX !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044025)

And anyone related to it and your family tree !!

Fanboi ?? Moi ?? Troll ?? Moi !!

Love to hate !!

1st troll (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044033)

1st

fanboys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044035)

They're a plague on everything, not just open source stuff. Pick a product, look at related forums, fanboys (and paid astroturfer (used by Apple and Microsoft)) will be waiting, defending any issue you have. Likewise, anti-troll accounts deliberately drum up fans to defend positions. The trick to avoid the corporate control and sheeple? Don't bother with online information, it's not real, it's fake, or excessively biased, paid for positions, with a smattering of reality drowned in BS.

Re:fanboys? (1, Offtopic)

dugancent (2616577) | about a year ago | (#44044191)

Easier way to avoid such things, look for people who use the word "sheeple", then disregard everything else they say.

Re:fanboys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044409)

Easier way to avoid such things, look for people who use the word "sheeple", then disregard everything else they say.

Just feed transcripts from Rush Limbaugh's radio show into a filter, and you'll weed out most of the really crazy assholes. Or if you're more lazy (like me), just filter on "sheeple", "O'bummer", and "military industrial complex".

Re:fanboys? (1)

dugancent (2616577) | about a year ago | (#44044511)

Touché

Re:fanboys? (1)

I'm New Around Here (1154723) | about a year ago | (#44044493)

I'm sorry. What was the end of your argument? I drifted off after you said "the word".

Re:fanboys? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044297)

Your quote : >paid astroturfer (used by Apple and Microsoft))

You mean Samsung. They were cought in the act and do actually pay for trolls and loudmouth.
Neither Apple nor MS need to do that.
Apple had (back in the 90s) paid evangelists, but those were more directed towards developers to convince them to write software for the Mac. Not to troll forums.
 

Re:fanboys? (1)

visualight (468005) | about a year ago | (#44044479)

Samsung is all over the xdeveloper forums. I complained about my bootloader being locked OTA and within hours there were dozens of haters on me. That kind of shit didn't happen with Transformer.

And that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044043)

Is why there will never be the mythical 'year of the linux desktop'.

This isn't a 'free software' problem. Plenty of 'free software' devs in the world have no trouble with the shills and trolls.

Anything connected to linux however. Does. Bigtime. I'd also extend that to anything that labels and pushes itself under the term "OPEN SOURCE"

Why? I don't know. Noticing reality does not give me the power to understand why, or how to fix it.

fuck me ive had linux desktop for like 10 years. (0)

decora (1710862) | about a year ago | (#44044113)

ubuntu baby. ubuntu.

its from africa.

Re:fuck me ive had linux desktop for like 10 years (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044325)

its from africa.

like obama!

Huh? (2, Insightful)

Brett Buck (811747) | about a year ago | (#44044051)

What the heck does this have to do with civil rights? Is some governmental agency preventing him from voting or serving on a jury?

Re:Huh? (1)

I'm New Around Here (1154723) | about a year ago | (#44044523)

Yes, I believe he wasn't allowed to vote for president last fall.

perhaps the problem is with the maintainer? (2, Insightful)

stenvar (2789879) | about a year ago | (#44044061)

I don't know either Gräßlin or KWin. But I get the impression from his blog post that he is unable to separate his personal and political opinions from his role as software maintainer. Perhaps that's the reason he experiences problems and has abuse targeted at him? Or maybe it's just his personality.

Re:perhaps the problem is with the maintainer? (1)

amiga3D (567632) | about a year ago | (#44044107)

I don't know about any of that but I don't see a problem with censoring crap on your own site. If people are rude or crass or even just annoying you have every right to not put up with them. Everyone has a right to his opinion and the right to voice it. Everyone also has the right to ignore the opinions of people he finds objectionable. Just because you have the right of free speech doesn't mean I have to listen to you.

Re:perhaps the problem is with the maintainer? (0)

stenvar (2789879) | about a year ago | (#44044159)

Of course he has a right to delete crap from his blog.

democratic elections (4, Insightful)

csumpi (2258986) | about a year ago | (#44044065)

Democratic elections are also decided by "fanboys and trolls". Campaigning is the art of getting most of them on your side.

Re:democratic elections (1)

Stan92057 (737634) | about a year ago | (#44044133)

No its not. They are decided by people who VOTE. If you dont vote then you have nothing to say or criticize.

Re:democratic elections (2)

sconeu (64226) | about a year ago | (#44044205)

Not voting is also a vote. When there is no real difference between the candidates offered, how do you protest?

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice" -- Rush.

Re:democratic elections (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044361)

An invalid vote is also a vote, not voting isn't a vote.

Re:democratic elections (1)

Comrade Ogilvy (1719488) | about a year ago | (#44044381)

Not voting is also a vote. When there is no real difference between the candidates offered, how do you protest?

Not voting is a vote, but it is usually interpreted in the opposite way to what you prefer.

There are usually third party candidates. And you can write in. Either proves genuine commitment.

Lack of personal commitment makes for an easily discouraged voter. Being an easily discouraged voter tends to encourage the worse kind of behavior in campaigning, in particular vicious negative campaigning. Negative campaigning is primarily about "suppressing" the other guys' likely voters through emotional arguments, not convincing anyone of anything meaningful about policy.

"Aw shucks...I do not really like anyone, I will not vote" is interpreted by political consultants as a definite positive for the person you disagree with more.

Re:democratic elections (3, Interesting)

Trepidity (597) | about a year ago | (#44044461)

Getting onto a tangent, but I think the Rush quote is sort of expressing the opposite sentiment, that you can't wash your hands of making a choice you don't want to make by failing to decide, because that's still in effect making a choice in the matter.

Re:democratic elections (1)

lgarner (694957) | about a year ago | (#44044503)

When there is no real difference between the candidates offered, how do you protest?

By effectively giving more influence to those who do vote?

Re:democratic elections (1)

Rob_Bryerton (606093) | about a year ago | (#44044597)

Not voting is also a vote. When there is no real difference between the candidates offered, how do you protest?

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice" -- Rush.

Oooh, ooh, yeah! Freewill! Off-topic to be sure, but I just love Geddy's bass riffs before, and especially during Alex's guitar solo. Great stuff...

Re:democratic elections (1)

Stan92057 (737634) | about a year ago | (#44044605)

Go to meetings,get involved. Quoting rush gets zero points.

Re:democratic elections (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044215)

What you're saying is that if you don't vote you're not a citizen.

Fortunately it doesn't work that way and your opinion can be safely ignored.

Re:democratic elections (1)

Comrade Ogilvy (1719488) | about a year ago | (#44044407)

People who do not vote are very safe to ignore, that, at least, is obvious.

sconeu's opinion may be right or wrong. It may matter only a little. But a little is infinitely times bigger than zero.

Re:democratic elections (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044227)

And, typically, it's the fanboys and trolls who vote. It's everyone else who doesn't bother.

Re:democratic elections (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044459)

No its not. They are decided by people who VOTE. If you dont vote then you have nothing to say or criticize.

Your attitude is most likely the biggest problem facing our country today. People choose not to vote for a variety of reasons, and a good number of people have had that right taken away. The politicians aren't supposed to only represent the Party they ran under, they still represent everyone. Likewise, every person has the same right to criticize regardless of how they voted, even if they didn't vote at all.

OP is flawed: Open source is not a democracy. (2, Insightful)

optikos (1187213) | about a year ago | (#44044067)

Open source is Ayn Rand's 1949 movie & 1943 novel The Fountainhead: be your own independent architect, do what you love to do, put it out there, see if anyone else loves it too, find your birds of a feather, flock together, and f— everyone else, especially your competitors on similar projects.

Re:OP is flawed: Open source is not a democracy. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044333)

Ayn Rand was an idiot, her theories flawed and they don't work. Provable.
Anyone who subscribes to her objectivism doesn't have two brain cells to think it through.

Re:OP is flawed: Open source is not a democracy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044435)

In a perfect world they might.

In our world, no. Ayn Rand was a deluded sycophant and I'm embarassed anytime some 12 year old her quotes her drivel.

Note: If you're over 12 and quote her, wow. Nothing to say to that level of retarded.

Re:OP is flawed: Open source is not a democracy. (1)

I'm New Around Here (1154723) | about a year ago | (#44044579)

Ayn Rand was an idiot, her theories flawed and they don't work. Provable.
Anyone who subscribes to her objectivism doesn't have two brain cells to think it through.

So, if he had said he follows Linus Torvalds because of his method of

be your own independent architect, do what you love to do, put it out there, see if anyone else loves it too, find your birds of a feather, flock together, and f— everyone else, especially your competitors on similar projects.

Would you have the same vitriol against him?

Because you don't sound like you have two one brain cells to figure out some philosophies are common among quite different people.

Re:OP is flawed: Open source is not a democracy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044423)

I'm looking forward to all you open-source nerds going Galt!

dude needs to chill the F out... (1)

SethJohnson (112166) | about a year ago | (#44044077)

Seriously. Who cares about this guy's rant?!?!? Yes, this is the tired meme of the internet giving voice to annoying people.

Deal with it or avoid the internet.

Another jaded developer (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044081)

We get it: you're tired of people not directly involved with your project offering opnions. Hey, everyone's been there. Relax, take a deep breath, and step back from the mess for a minute. "Fanboys"? "Trolls"? When you start flinging epithets around the situation gets worse. Suddenly everyone who disagrees with you is a troll, or everyone who is not persuaded by your arguments are fanboys. Don't give in to the dark side.

Boo hoo? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044091)

I'd say he should get a thicker skin, but then he'll just be a thick skinned fascist instead of a whiny fascist apologist.

civil rights doesn't preclude different forums (4, Insightful)

Trepidity (597) | about a year ago | (#44044103)

The idea of free speech is that the state can't outright ban certain kinds of speech. It does not mean that every bit of speech must be included in every possible discussion forum. In some, you might want to be as open as possible in order to allow the widest range of unmoderated discussion. That was the goal of many of the early discussion fora like the WELL. But in others, you might want to restrict discussion more narrowly. This could be based on topic: on some Usenet groups, mailing lists, and webforums, there are ranges of topics considered on-topic, and others considered off-topic. How narrow the on-topic range is varies, and how strictly it's enforced varies (do you politely ask off-topic discussions to knock it off, do you axe them outright, etc?). It also could be based on behavior standards: do you ban people for personal attacks, for aggressive behavior, for doxxing, or any range of other activities? It depends on the community and their goals.

But the point is that these are all tradeoffs that vary by community, and don't have much to do with civil rights. It is your right to publish a shitty book of poems, but that doesn't mean you have the same right to email every poem you write to the Linux Kernel Mailing List. This is a pretty basic distinction, no?

The correct opinions, of course, are never censore (2)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | about a year ago | (#44044119)

"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"
-- George Orwell, "Animal Farm"

censoring hateful expression is acceptable (3, Insightful)

RLBrown (889443) | about a year ago | (#44044125)

In the quoted blog, Martin Graesslin is basically asking if censoring zero-content hate speech from fanboys and trolls is a compromise on supporting full freedom of speech. It is not. In the USA, we make this differentiation. You are free to express any opinion, but may not do so with "hateful" language. "Fighting words" are forbidden in public forums. In addition, advocating illegal action is not the same as expressing an opinion. Saying something like "The bums in Congress should be removed from office, one and all" is okay, whereas "grab your gun, we march tonight" is not.

Re:censoring hateful expression is acceptable (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044627)

Saying something like "The bums in Congress should be removed from office, one and all" is okay, whereas "grab your gun, we march tonight" is not.

Why? The latter is the only way anything will actually change.

No, politics (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044129)

TFS is hideous and spot on all at the same time... The first 11 sentences of the quote talk about politics and not a single mention of software, and if anything kills free (sic) software it'll be politics. Back in comp.sources days I participated a lot in open source software. I did that to make computers easier to use and more accessible to others, and that's the only reason I did it. I didn't do it for that fucking bullshit "democracy" that's become the religious mantra of the westerners, I didn't do it for the pirates or some lame "free as in frieh, oh but not free as in frieee" movement. Only because I'm a human and as a human I like to help others with my skills.

Are you human?

Cut the fucking politics, cut the fucking play on words with "free", and just write good open source software.

Yes but... (5, Insightful)

countach (534280) | about a year ago | (#44044139)

Censoring other people in your own domain IS A FORM OF SPEECH!

The Neo Nazis can go spout their nonsense, but it doesn't mean I have to let them do it in my own home. Neither does Martin censoring his own blog mean that he is against free speech. He is exercising his own free speech in his own domain by censoring trolls.

There are any number of reasons to censor people in your own domain that doesn't indicate that you think their ideas are dangerous in themselves. You simply are telling them to take their ideas somewhere else, which we all have a right to do.

Re:Yes but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044545)

AC can do nothing but clap.

Re:Yes but... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044617)

Nice try. How typical that you are anti-white, pro white genocide. How pathetic.

Of course he against free speech - he can't win the debate, so he silences the opposition. It's as simple as that.

I can demolish you in a debate about (LOL) 'civil' rights (you mean the right for non-whites to FORCE themselves into the living space of white people who clearly don't want them around, and then the 'right' of non-whites to essentially hold the same white people hostage with the never ending use of the magic word, 'racist', the 'get out of jail free' card for non-whites who fuck up.) so you'll either run away, refuse to debate, or try to silence me.

Hence you are an idiot who can't think for himself. You are terrified of the truth, you are not even a human because the thing that distinguishes humans from animals is that humans can THINK and DEBATE and REASON, and animals can't.

Slashdot has plenty of fanboys and trolls... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044161)

Look how well it is doing!

Iterative introspection (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044165)

Posting rants and opinions on a blog is a waste of time. Commenting on the same is a productive use of ones time.

Which is great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044167)

Except way too often "trolls and flamers" comes to mean "anybody whose opinion disagrees with mine".

work with the public for a year or two (3, Interesting)

decora (1710862) | about a year ago | (#44044169)

and either you will burnout or none of this shit will bother you anymore because you will have seen everything.

you think trolling is bad? flameboys? how about someone dumping their whole tray of food in front of you and screaimng at you as they walk out over a $2.20 item.

how about people calling you up and cursing you out because they got the wrong phone number?

how about a convicted rapist coming into your store and flashing people?

how about getting robbed at gunpoint at 3 in the morning for $7.00/hour?

how about your former manager getting pulled into a freezer and shot to death, 2 weeks after you quit a fast food joint?

first world problems baby. first world problems.

Censorship or moderation? (1)

kajsocc (2955535) | about a year ago | (#44044173)

I find it completely acceptable to censor certain comments and encourage others to censor, too.

There's a difference between doing it on your forum or blog, which you own, and doing it for your whole country and everyone in it, which you don't.

Never expected to defend trolls and fanboys... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044175)

We need them, if only to show how idiotic we can be. And then we mod them down, where they belong.

This guy can censor his own forum, I can appreciate that a developers forum does not want them.

As long as there are places like /. where trolls and fanboys can say whatever they like for the enjoyment of those who read at -1, everything is ok.

Aka the "Greater Internet Dickwad Theory" (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044183)

Accessibility is great, but sometimes we forget that when we bring the internet to everybody, we also bring everybody to the internet.

Lots of places I frequent are closing comment sections (Especially youtube channels. There is no greater indictment against humanity than youtube comments) because the robust moderation required to keep public commentary civil is simply not available.

I really do want to give people a chance, but the proliferation of social media and internet access has unfortunately proven what we've known all along.
People are dumb. Really, really, really, really dumb. Worse, the dumber you are the less likely to know that you are indeed dumb, and the louder and more narcissistic you become in order to leave your mark on the world.

I'm not claiming to be smarter than everyone else, but at least I know when to shut up.

Expect to see heavy handed moderation and tightening of public forums. Expect to see trust and reputation systems. Expect to see a drastic reduction in linking to social media and other toxic entities.

One begins to see why the founding fathers of the US didn't opt for a direct democracy. People really do need to be saved from themselves.

Nothing is "killing free software." (1)

erroneus (253617) | about a year ago | (#44044193)

Free software, as good as it often is, does not do well in a consumerist society. We believe that anything good costs money and inversely, if it costs money it must be good and the more money it costs, the better it must be. What's more the implied belief is that if it's free, it can't be good.

But depite all that, it's not just people that are increasingly using it, it's that business is increasingly using it. I don't mind, terribly, that commercial software business actually uses free software to make their stuff... I do but I don't. VMWare still pisses me off in the sense that their product is Linux all over and yet they won't make a Linux client for it. (Way to take without giving back VMWare!!!)

But where the whole industry is going is changing. Where things will be in 3 to 5 years will be quite telling of where we're going and whether or not Microsoft will remain relevant into the future and all that. But one thing I know is certain: Things will not stay the same simply because Microsoft doesn't want them to change. And as Microsoft is apparently terrible at change, a pretty dismal picture is being painted for them. And seriously, are people really buying into the "cloud" nonsense?! Especially now with the NSA controlling the world's data?

Free software is and will be the way forward. Nothing is killing it. And I'm pretty sure open source software will be the way to restore trust in computing and in the internet.

It's the price. (2)

Ateocinico (32734) | about a year ago | (#44044197)

A german saying:
"Wer will bauen an der Straßen, muß die Leute reden lassen."
Who builds on the street, must let people talk.

Open source is somewhat self defeating (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044239)

The thing that kills free software is not fanboys or trolls, it's that it's free and doesn't come with enough support for the developers.

The flame wars exist everywhere in life with proprietary closed software and open source. The difference is that in the open source world, you don't have any entity or departments shielding developers from it all.

As free software gets more accepted and popular, community expectations also increase adding more pressure on the developers on one hand, while the difficulty of maintaining and organizing a coherent plan gets harder and harder. It's hard enough managing a project and a team in an environment where you're paid to do so, I can only imagine how much more difficult it is in the open source world.

Translation: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044253)

"I was totally in favour of free speech until I couldn't shut people up I don't agree with."

Tldr (2)

TheEffigy (2666397) | about a year ago | (#44044259)

TLDR: Was hippy, got better.

Fanboys and Trolls (1, Interesting)

Murdoch5 (1563847) | about a year ago | (#44044269)

The amount of people who don't actually know what a troll is, is mind blowing. Having a completely different opinion does not make you a troll. A troll has to without any attempt at valid point formation for his / her side, argue with the attempt to instil negative feelings or total false hood on the given topic. I hate trolls but I also hate people who don't know how to recognize a troll, having been modded down on this side many times for making good and logical arguments, I'm actually worried that people have lost the ability to distinguish a troll from someone who has a valid differing opinion.

As for Fanboys, well if you can make me a good set of points on why your product is better and if you can properly discuss them all with me and make me see that your not just a Fanboy without reason then your okay! The Fanboys I can't stand are the ones who talk about product X like it's the coming of Jesus but then can't talk about why they don't actually like Y, Z and T without saying they just suck.

The best part is, this works with everything! I don't care if your a software developer, home baker, car mechanic or just a noodle enthusiast, you need to be able to form proper reasons behind the things you do and why you do them. I'm not a musical fan but if you can sit down and explain all the reasons you like musicals then I'm not going to argue, we might differ entirely in opinion but at least you have good reasons and I can respect that.

Project Management (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044275)

The real problem in OSS is that you have really talented programmers trying to be software and system architects with no managerial, leadership, or PM experience. Say what you want about MBAs, but it is the combination of soft skills, the ability to have a strategic vision, and the leadership (or charisma) that results in people wanting to work for you that yields success.

I am not downplaying the importance of brilliant coders, but the problem with the "cult of genius" that OSS subscribes to is that the "genius" is only relevant so long as the tools he uses to program are not made obsolete.

What a place to complain (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44044289)

Is an article on Slashdot complaining about fanboys and trolls ironic or just plain futile?

Re:What a place to complain (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044411)

Slashdot has one of the oldest and most robust moderation systems on the internet, period.

Back in the 90's, browsing at -1, you'd think the whole place was about Natalie Portman, grits, and GNAA. The trolls have moved on because their stuff never becomes visible for more than a few seconds. (I've seen some shit, son)

  That, and there are lots of other places to get your rocks off now.

Not worth the read (1)

Stonefish (210962) | about a year ago | (#44044301)

The guy is a free software developer and his ego is getting in the way. Essentially its "prima donna" syndrome where the reviews are only important when they bath the individual in glory. Yeah none of those reviewers know anything.... but you still read them ;-)
The short story is that ICT in general has more people with ego problems than most segments of industry. Poor social misfit is valued by the company/organisation ego blooms, man-boy finds himself isolated and lashes out, discovers others are stronger, fiercer etc. Shrinks back into shell butt filled with hurt and rage ;-) .. Writes a blog...
 

He's pathetic (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044309)

Because he has categorically decided that KWin will unequivocally NOT support Canonical's Mir, no matter how many Ubuntu/Canonical devs offer to help with support, he's beginning to receive criticism from so-called "Ubuntu fanboys" for basing his decision on personal grounds rather than technical merits. So he has basically decided he wants to delete any of those criticisms from his blog, and he wrote this pathetic, lame-ass blog post as a justification for censorship. Make no mistake, this is about his irrational hatred of everything Ubuntu, and not about a larger philosophical debate over free speech. I really doubt anyone would fault a person for exercising the right to moderate his blog as he sees fit, but this isn't about reigning in trolls, but simply censoring opinions from people who he has some weird personal animus against. Like I said, pathetic.

Censorship v. Forum Moderation (1)

Bob9113 (14996) | about a year ago | (#44044327)

Nowadays I think that not every opinion needs to be tolerated. I find it completely acceptable to censor certain comments and encourage others to censor, too.

And from the article:
We need to find solutions to the fanboys and one of the solutions I came up with is to block them on my blog posts.

Moderated forums are not identical to censorship. Censorship is the attempt to prevent an opinion from being expressed. Moderation can have the objective only to prevent disruption of a particular forum, and not be an attempt to suppress an opinion. It is certainly possible for moderation to approach censorship in effect, depending on the prominence of the forum to the topic in question and the concentration of the authority to moderate, but moderation is not necessarily censorship and should be considered in context.

Moderation works. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044385)

Slashdot is an excellent example of a self-moderating system. It has survived the test of years. I nearly always find I learn something of value on any given article by reading through the comments and discussions here, and the trolls are managed so that they don't disrupt real conversations.

There is a human ingredient necessary, however; mod points are awarded to people who have demonstrated rational, fair thinking. I get a ton of them to spend on a regular basis and I use them judiciously, often giving a +1 "Interesting" point to both parties in a hot debate if I feel they both make valuable contributions which the larger community can benefit from considering. I make a point of not rewarding people just because I happen to agree with their points of view.

Once you set up mod points to a few committed members who have proven themselves, the system is pretty good at self-regulating with relatively low effort.

Other forums which don't use a slashcode moderation format can still benefit from smart moderators who are not afraid to ban disruptive members. There are a number of excellent forums out there which host well behaved members and thus are able to provide useful, informative discussion.

But without moderation and the ability to downplay or outright terminate trolls and fools, a forum will invariably go to pot.

Youtube comments, and many news sites using basic unthreaded comments are often hopelessly overwhelmed by crass idiots. But that's what meta-news sites are for. Link to the original article or video and host discussions elsewhere.

Let the trolls eat each other while the adults talk off to one side.

The pockets of discussion on the internet seem to work out naturally, finding their own balance.

I'd say that open source forums might need an adjustment to better moderation systems if the OP's experience isn't what he'd prefer. There are models which have proven themselves to work.

Stubborn guy needs to take a hint. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044393)

Most of the time fanboys and trolls and just noise. But.... there comes a time when the trolls are right.

If suddenly you are overwhelmed by trolls, maybe, just maybe, you are doing something wrong. Take Ubuntu/Unity/Canonical or Windows 8 for instance. They inspired intense criticism and hate, and plenty of it. Why? Because the designers were fundamentally wrong and stubborn and refused to actually listen to the user community.

This really looks like it's one of those cases. A guy with horrible ideas gets criticized and then cries and throws tantrums because most people including actual potential users disagree with him. I wholly agree with the sentiment of "grow a pair". Admit you might be wrong and that there just might be actual reasons behind the hate. Otherwise you're just old, crufty, stubborn, and really should quit what you do.

Obviously...... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044399)

He is a person that looks for things to find offensive, reasons to dislike things, and will do anything for a reason to cry foul. He just strikes me as one of those people that always has this need to seek out a "personal conflict" to wage their own crusade on to satisfy some subconscious need to project themselves as the hero who really knows whats going on and show everyone how awesome and correct he is.

And the term troll is pathetic at best. Because anymore troll means "Person who has a differing opinion than your own". If someone on the internet says its cold out and someone says "No I think its warm" then that person is a troll. Everyone who doesn't agree 100% with someone else is always a troll.

Moderation != Censorship (1)

B1oodAnge1 (1485419) | about a year ago | (#44044455)

Sounds like he's having trouble differentiating between government censorship and non government moderation.

Free speech has nothing at all to do with moderating a privately owned forum in such a way that the conversations are productive.

the (re)definition of troll (2)

epyT-R (613989) | about a year ago | (#44044513)

The problem is that the term troll is now thrown around by oversensitive moderators/operators to silence people who offer alternative opinions, whether they be well reasoned or not. This is not trolling, period. Trolling is a deliberate attempt to derail the conversation. However, a troll only has as much power as you let him have. Moderator or user, both can deny the troll his power by sticking to rational arguments, correct facts, and the truth. See a post that pisses you off? Don't censor him, respond! As long as this concept is held in esteem, the only people the troll will piss off are the irrational users who are too embedded in their guilds to care (politics, cars, computing etc all have these). Just dont worry about them. It's not worth punching a hole into free speech that'll just get widened to the point where the forum becomes useless; where the whole site is sliced up into separate guilds that the administrators appease with nonsensical bans on certain terms or subjects because they're afraid to lose users.

slashdot suffers from this too, with people abusing the 'troll' moderation to knock down positions they don't agree with. It's the electronic equivalent of an ad hominem.

John Scalzi on censorship (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044527)

John Scalzi says it best on his blog ...

That said, I reserve the right to edit all comments, and to moderate all comment threads, as I see fit. Your comment is more likely to be edited, moderated or deleted if it contains phobic content (based on race, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, religion, etc), is a personal attack or threat toward another commenter, is entirely unrelated to the entry topic, features more than a “fair use” amount of someone else’s copyrighted work, has such poor grammar and spelling that it annoys me, is an obvious piece of trollage, or if I find it or you obnoxious and decide I’ve had enough. Don’t like it? Don’t comment. Simple.

A good rule of thumb is to comment as if the person to whom you are commenting is standing in front of you, is built like a linebacker, and has both a short temper and excellent legal representation. If you would a longer, more nuanced idea of what I think makes for good comments, here’s an entry on the subject.

Rest of text here ... http://whatever.scalzi.com/about/site-disclaimer-and-comment-policy/

What a wimp. (1)

Rob_Bryerton (606093) | about a year ago | (#44044539)

He thinks he has it bad? Hey, at least he's not on the Gnome dev team. Instead of crying to us, he'd be sobbing in his mother's arms!

HEADLINE: Paradise Lost!
[Germany]
Today, a naive idealist crashed headlong into reality, and his youthful dreams of utopia were shattered. No more Unicorns and skipping down candy-colored, lollipop lanes for this disillusioned, sensitive soul! Turn to page 6 and read all about the injustices this poor individual has suffered because of some mean old trolls on the Internet, and how his "everything should be like, free, man" world-view has been turned into "ve must rule with an IRON FIST, ja?".

Classic.

Come on Klaus, man up, hold your head high, and delete those posts. It's gonna be ok... they're just trolls and fan-boys, right? Right? And for the love of FSM, stay out of politics; we remember last time some sensitive budding artist got involved in politics there. (OK, that last part was uncalled for...)

Fan site vs Dev site (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44044569)

When I was running a popular open source mod, we drew tons of Fanboys and Trolls. We created a fan site and a dev site. The fan site was open the dev site worked along the lines of StackExchange. I rarely visited the fan site, it was infuriating and demotiviating.

Well, (2)

roc97007 (608802) | about a year ago | (#44044641)

What has changed is that now you're one of the builders, rather than one of the activists.

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