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Brazilian Government To Monitor Social Media To Counter Recent Riots

samzenpus posted about a year ago | from the big-brazillian-brother dept.

Government 126

First time accepted submitter prxp writes "Recent riots in Brazil have taken the Brazilian Government completely by surprise, since most of its intelligence personnel have been assigned to work on the security of Fifa's Confederations Cup, according to 'O Estado de São Paulo' (Google translation), one of Brazil's major newspapers. This is particularly ironic, since protesting against the way Fifa has managed Confederations Cup in Brazil accompanied with overspending by the Brazilian Government is in the heart of these riots. Because of that, ABIN (the Brazilian equivalent to CIA) "has assembled a last minute operation to monitor the Internet" where intelligence officials have been tasked to monitor protesters' every move 'though Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and WhatsApp' in order to "anticipate itineraries and size of riots" among other intel. The legality of such action is unknown, since Brazilian laws prohibit this kind of wiretapping."

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126 comments

BR huehuehue (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067547)

Damn!!! I AM A BRAZILIAN.. and our government is FUCKING with us!!

Re:BR huehuehue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067559)

Good luck to you all

What the hell is a " Fifa's Confederations Cup"? (2)

cayenne8 (626475) | about a year ago | (#44069175)

What the hell is a " Fifa's Confederations Cup"?

The google translation didn't come up for me...

Re:What the hell is a " Fifa's Confederations Cup" (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44070677)

Its a warm up for FIFA's World Cup which will happen in Brazil in 2014.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_FIFA_Confederations_Cup

Germany spent like 1.6 Billion dolars in their world cup in 2006. South Africa spent 1.8 billion in 2010. Brazil spent 16 billion so far, and more costs are expected.

Re:BR huehuehue (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067825)

its ok, soccer comes first, the govmt will shoot to kill until peace is restored - and you guys will go back to your slave job with slave pay, since its all you are worth anyway.

One of many currency war protests. (5, Interesting)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | about a year ago | (#44068187)

If you do not get what the problem is, see: Stop bankers betting on food - What is the problem?. [wdm.org.uk]

Also on Brazil: Currency War Rattles Brazil, Wakes Up the People [testosteronepit.com] :

The spark that lit it – after price and asset inflation had made life too expensive for the middle class – was an increase in bus fares.

[Brazilian Finance Minister Guido Mantega] taken aim at the Fed’s “bold” efforts to hand trillions to the big players – the hot money – who didn’t invest it in production and jobs in the US but plowed it into every conceivable “asset class,” such as commodity and currency speculation and similar productive uses. It hit prices in Brazil and drove up the Real.

Brazil counterattacked last year. The Real plunged 24% against the buck. Prices of imported goods soared – adding to the inflation that had already been zigzagging up from 3.7% in 2007. In May, it hit a red-hot 6.45%.

It was just too much for the 40 million people who’d made the transition from poverty into (barely) the middle class since the turn of the millennium. Products they buy on a daily basis have jumped: tomatoes are up 96% over last year, onions 70%, rice 20%, chicken 23%. Since 2008, rents are up 118%.

Of course, bankers do what they like, own the politicians and sit on the board directly or indirectly of nearly ever major news source out there - so move along, no currency war to see here...

Re:One of many currency war protests. (2)

Mashiki (184564) | about a year ago | (#44068557)

There's a lot more going on besides food and currency. Mass corruption is the name of the game. The irony of course is they recently held a international "anti-corruption" gathering. Brazil is one small step, a very small step above China in terms of throwing money at someone to make "things" happen.

Re:BR huehuehue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069971)

Good.

Brazilians are the worlds biggest douchebags online.

Bout time someone fucked with you all.

O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (5, Informative)

Shoten (260439) | about a year ago | (#44067567)

"The legality of such action is unknown, since Brazilian laws prohibit this kind of wiretapping."

I'm sorry...you'll have to repeat that once more. I couldn't quite hear you over the sound of my brain cells committing suicide one by one.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (4, Insightful)

AK Marc (707885) | about a year ago | (#44067661)

How can it be against the law to look on Facebook for "Rio Riot Tuesday 3 p.m."?

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (1)

buchner.johannes (1139593) | about a year ago | (#44068817)

Well, presumably it is legal to look at public web content (Twitter, public Facebook events). Monitoring private communication by analysing data streams would clearly be illegal (not just in Brazil). Joining the events with a fake profile to follow communication would presumably be ok for the police to do.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (2)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about a year ago | (#44067739)

It probably means there are no laws specifically addressing this situation.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (1)

murdocj (543661) | about a year ago | (#44068865)

The situation of reading public posts on Facebook? I sure hope there aren't any laws on that situation.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44072543)

It probably means there are no laws specifically addressing this situation.

"Brazilian laws prohibit this kind of wiretapping" - it's quoted in the GP's post.

Now maybe they phrased it wrong - but that reads to me that they explicitly do have laws addressing this situation. The only reason there is any confusion is because no-one actually expects a Government to follow it's own bloody laws any more!

Re: O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067879)

Agreed. Had to read it twice to be certain.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (2)

Arker (91948) | about a year ago | (#44067899)

"The legality of such action is unknown, since Brazilian laws prohibit this kind of wiretapping."

This caught my eye too. Poster needs to make up his mind. If Brazilian laws prohibit this then the legality is not "unknown" it's illegal. I have no idea what the relevant Brazilian law says, and I am guessing the submitter doesnt either.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (4, Informative)

BlueStrat (756137) | about a year ago | (#44068045)

"The legality of such action is unknown, since Brazilian laws prohibit this kind of wiretapping."

This caught my eye too. Poster needs to make up his mind. If Brazilian laws prohibit this then the legality is not "unknown" it's illegal. I have no idea what the relevant Brazilian law says, and I am guessing the submitter doesnt either.

No, the poster is correct. Obviously, the Brazilian government holds to the same school of thought as the US government. It's not unlawful/un-Constitutional if we do it because of the current scary and propaganda-hyped boogeyman-du-jour.

Civil rights are taking a beating everywhere these days along with those advocating for them, it seems. All the recent US government "scandals" are actually just symptoms of the government attacking and violating civil rights in general. Every one of the so-called "scandals" are actually the government violating/ignoring/abusing/attacking/denying the civil rights of all the people, not just a particular group.

We need *real* civil rights leaders. Not the current jokes that bill themselves as such. It's time for another civil rights movement (NOT some "Arab Spring" violent revolution based on hate). Everywhere.

Strat

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (3, Informative)

Grashnak (1003791) | about a year ago | (#44068471)

No, the poster is correct. Obviously, the Brazilian government holds to the same school of thought as the US government. It's not unlawful/un-Constitutional if we do it because of the current scary and propaganda-hyped boogeyman-du-jour.

Civil rights are taking a beating everywhere these days along with those advocating for them, it seems.

Without talking about what the US government is doing, I would just point out that what is nonsensical in the original post is that monitoring what people say on Twitter isn't "wiretapping" any more than reading what you chose to post on this forum is "wiretapping".

Civil rights may well be under attack, but not by people looking at a Twitter or Instagram stream, looking for comments about where protests are being held.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (1)

Sarten-X (1102295) | about a year ago | (#44069219)

My kingdom for mod points...

This is exactly right. Sure, Brazilian laws might outlaw some kinds of wiretapping, but I'm going to need a bit more than a Google translation of a news article before I form an opinion on whether this specific action is illegal, when done by these specific agents, in this specific country, at this specific time.

I know it's cool for Slashdotters to shoehorn every kind of observation into "wiretapping", then assume that all wiretapping laws prohibit it, but that's just not the case. Then again, factual accuracy has never been one of Slashdot's strongest traits.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44071677)

Its people like this that split hairs and let the government get away with anything because they use circle jerk reasoning to justify why they appreciate licking masters boots.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (1)

Zaatxe (939368) | about a year ago | (#44069045)

If Brazilian laws prohibit this then the legality is not "unknown" it's illegal.

That proves you know nothing about Brazil, Jon Snow!

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44071079)

Illegal legalities are the stuff that powers the blades of the helicopters of the über class.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (1)

geekmux (1040042) | about a year ago | (#44068719)

"The legality of such action is unknown, since Brazilian laws prohibit this kind of wiretapping."

I'm sorry...you'll have to repeat that once more. I couldn't quite hear you over the sound of my brain cells committing suicide one by one.

Horrid sentence structure aside, the issue is no longer questioning what is legal. The issue is what the hell are you going to do about it when you find the activity...isn't.

Legality smegality...doesn't really matter when as a citizen you no longer maintain control or have a say in the matter.

Re:O que? ("what?" in Portuguese) (2)

mjwalshe (1680392) | about a year ago | (#44071113)

open source intelligence on publicly available information is not illegal

They Aren't Already Doing That? (1)

CodeBuster (516420) | about a year ago | (#44067591)

Really? What are their intelligence agencies doing, twiddling their thumbs? Epic Fail.

Re:They Aren't Already Doing That? (5, Informative)

AHuxley (892839) | about a year ago | (#44067707)

Brazil has a past with its https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_military_government [wikipedia.org] so the gov wants to try and move away from the optics of a CIA backed counter-insurgency.
You also have a generation of young people who grew up in democratic Brazil with the internet and they still cling to the idea they have rights and freedoms.
In the old days technical help for the USA would ensure a few government-sponsored political assassinations and disappearances would find the trouble makers and solve any issues before they got any support.
Their intelligence agencies will be doing what any intelligence agencies do, make lists and wait for the political cover for targeted or mass arrests.
The last thing intelligence agencies want is a "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popieuszko" ie some priest/press/student is beaten and murdered for the gov-
Suddenly the intelligence agents are in a very public court after just doing their 'jobs'.
Expect to see a lot of tear gas, spray, small tanks, rubber/live rounds at any protests but a long slow hidden harassment of protesters by every gov department.
Tax problems, university problems, press card is not valid, banking issues - just until a protest leader gets the message to stay home.
If that fails, active surveillance until the person does something wrong. Then a very legal night raid that the individual may or may not survive.

I, for one... (5, Funny)

notequinoxe (2668889) | about a year ago | (#44067655)

Since this is becoming a global trend, I for one, DO NOT welcome our orwellian state overlords

Re:I, for one... (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44067851)

Since this is becoming a global trend

Agreed. Earlier someone wrote about India that people shouldn't be too US-centric in thinking about the motivation for their wire tapping. But now? Two countries doing the same thing is a coincidence, three is a trend. On the bright side, the USA still leads the way! Oh, hold it ...

Not FIFA (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067679)

As corrupt as FIFA might be with its match-fixes, the root of the problem in Brazil is the dishonesty of the politicians (who would sell their mothers/wives/daughters for a quick buck) and the complacency of the population (who whine, but vote for the same politicians every year).

"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067727)

Monitoring and wiretapping aren't the same thing. I expect any decent state intelligence agency to have the ability to go on Twitter and read public tweets.

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (4, Insightful)

beaverdownunder (1822050) | about a year ago | (#44067803)

> Monitoring and wiretapping aren't the same thing. I expect any decent state intelligence agency to have the ability to go on Twitter and read public tweets.

Exactly -- making the argument that monitoring public information is somehow 'eavesdropping' or 'wiretapping' just because you don't want the authorities to see it is pretty weak. I question the relevance of this article full stop -- it's simple prudence to assume that if you post something in a public feed, anyone -- including the government, cops, whoever -- could be reading / watching / listening.

Suggesting that is somehow 'illegal' is just childish and silly.

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (1)

oreiasecaman (2466136) | about a year ago | (#44072447)

Yeah but the story mentions wiretapping of WhatsApp, which is not "open" like Facebook or Instagram

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (0)

cheater512 (783349) | about a year ago | (#44067895)

Ah so the NSA is merely monitoring the whole world's communications. Got it.

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44068055)

Yes, monitoring public forums and collecting information about private phone calls are *exactly* the same thing. You got it.

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (1)

Grashnak (1003791) | about a year ago | (#44068479)

In this case, they are "wiretapping" in much the same way that I am "wiretapping" the comments on this forum.

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (2)

murdocj (543661) | about a year ago | (#44068869)

If all the NSA was doing was monitoring public posts to Facebook & Twitter no one would care. You might want to glance at the news to see what they are really doing.

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44070655)

Quick, somebody come and arrest me! I am wiretapping your posts! I am doing something illegal!

You f**king moron. Think things through before you type this mindless bulls**t.

Re:"Monitoring" or "Wiretapping"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44070237)

Yes. But do you expect any state intelligency agency to read your WhatsApp messages?

legality shmegality (3, Insightful)

stenvar (2789879) | about a year ago | (#44067747)

Didn't you know? We must destroy democracy and civil liberties in order to save them. One life saved is worth all our civil liberties. Our voters expect no less (and sadly, they really don't).

Re:legality shmegality (1)

ae1294 (1547521) | about a year ago | (#44073073)

Didn't you know? We must destroy democracy and civil liberties in order to save them. One dollar made is worth all our civil liberties. Our voters expect no less (and sadly, they really don't).

Fixed it for you...

The lesson to learn (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067757)

Why can't people learn from past mistakes? Do not under any circumstance let your city or country host one of these once every 4 year politically charged sporting events. They are way too expensive for the average citizen, and they're just a get rich quick scheme for a few and a way for politicians to make the naive feel good about them and re-elect them. These events funnel way too much money into building infrastructure that rarely gets used again after the event, and wrecks the local culture by taking away sponsorship money.

You're much better off getting on a regular championship circuit where you can invest in the infrastructure once and profit from it annually. And the championship circuits are much less politically charged, so the politicians don't gain much from meddling with the events.

Re:The lesson to learn (1)

jasper160 (2642717) | about a year ago | (#44069171)

Very true, economic studies of past Olympic cities do not show the big numbers promised.

Dark Web: Where anyone can host a hidden forum! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067791)

Might want to include "dark web" forums, too, like:

HackBB
http://www.tinyurl.com/hackbbonion [tinyurl.com]

Above tinyurl requires Tor as it's a link to a Tor hidden service .onion discussion forums site.

just some background (1, Troll)

stenvar (2789879) | about a year ago | (#44067819)

I think the causes and the protesters are interesting:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/19/us-brazil-protests-impact-analysis-idUSBRE95I1LQ20130619 [reuters.com]

That is, the protests are a noisy sign of discontent among a swath of the population that is on average richer and better educated than average Brazilians. A survey of demonstrators in Sao Paulo on Monday by polling firm Datafolha indicated they were three times more likely to have a university degree than the rest of the population.

Causes:

Just a quarter of demonstrators told Datafolha they were protesting against politicians - behind bus fares (56 percent), corruption (40 percent) and police repression (31 percent).

So, it's educated middle class people in the city protesting that politicians aren't giving them stuff cheaper and that politicians are wasting their money. Remember that Brazil is under a left-wing government headed by the PT (Worker's Party). At least it's not Venezuela, where the left wing government managed to produce a shortage of toilet paper; you really don't want to have riots involving large numbers of people lacking toilet paper; it's likely to be smelly.

Of course, if Brazil had a free market kind of government, some people would be protesting against that as well because they think they aren't getting their "fair share". They'd want a left wing government that gives them "free stuff", until that left wing government predictably fails to be able to deliver, and then they protest against that. Well, as long as the stay away from fascist or theocratic government and don't run out of toilet paper, the Brazilians should still be mostly OK.

Karma karma karm karma karmawhoring (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067869)

Has a link: CHECK
Has blockquotes: CHECK
Has blatant stab at Lefties: CHECK

You, sir, will have +5 in mere seconds. You've been paying attention.

Re:just some background (3, Insightful)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44067877)

So, it's educated middle class people in the city protesting that politicians aren't giving them stuff cheaper and that politicians are wasting their money. Remember that Brazil is under a left-wing government headed by the PT (Worker's Party). At least it's not Venezuela, where the left wing government managed to produce a shortage of toilet paper; you really don't want to have riots involving large numbers of people lacking toilet paper; it's likely to be smelly.

Of course, if Brazil had a free market kind of government, some people would be protesting against that as well because they think they aren't getting their "fair share". They'd want a left wing government that gives them "free stuff", until that left wing government predictably fails to be able to deliver, and then they protest against that. Well, as long as the stay away from fascist or theocratic government and don't run out of toilet paper, the Brazilians should still be mostly OK.

Silly question: do you actually know much about Brazilian politics and economics, or did you just use a sound bite statistic from one article to justify your generic ideological rant?

Re:just some background (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067925)

So, it's educated middle class people in the city protesting that politicians aren't giving them stuff cheaper and that politicians are wasting their money. Remember that Brazil is under a left-wing government headed by the PT (Worker's Party). At least it's not Venezuela, where the left wing government managed to produce a shortage of toilet paper; you really don't want to have riots involving large numbers of people lacking toilet paper; it's likely to be smelly.

Of course, if Brazil had a free market kind of government, some people would be protesting against that as well because they think they aren't getting their "fair share". They'd want a left wing government that gives them "free stuff", until that left wing government predictably fails to be able to deliver, and then they protest against that. Well, as long as the stay away from fascist or theocratic government and don't run out of toilet paper, the Brazilians should still be mostly OK.

Silly question: do you actually know much about Brazilian politics and economics, or did you just use a sound bite statistic from one article to justify your generic ideological rant?

That is a silly question. He's clearly pro-free-market-captialism which we all know solves all the world's problems and makes milk and honey fall from the sky. Of course he's trying to justify his ideological rant man. This is slashdot. Almost everyone here thinks they know how to run the world a lot better if we'd only come to our senses and declare them absolute ruler of the universe.

Re:just some background (1)

stenvar (2789879) | about a year ago | (#44068705)

Silly question: do you actually have a better explanation of what is going on, or do you just jump on anybody who mentions the words "left wing"?

Re:just some background (1)

bradasch (516015) | about a year ago | (#44069959)

The latter. He clearly is against it, or not. He sounds just like the common brazilian "educated middle class" he refers at the beginning, ignoring real politics and economics and focusing on his navel gazing views.

* And when I say "He", you know, could be a "She". Doesn't matter.

Your "background" and conclusions are wrong (4, Interesting)

Camael (1048726) | about a year ago | (#44068063)

stenvar says:

So, it's educated middle class people in the city protesting that politicians aren't giving them stuff cheaper and that politicians are wasting their money.

If you had done some proper research, you would have discovered that the "middle class" did not support the protest, it started off peacefully and only gained traction after abusive police crackdowns. [nydailynews.com]

The marches began this month with a small protest in Sao Paulo against a small increase in bus and subway fares. The demonstrations initially drew the scorn of many middle-class Brazilians after protesters vandalized storefronts, subway stations and buses on one of the city's main avenues. But the movement quickly gained support and spread to other cities as police used heavy-handed tactics to try to quell the demonstrations. The biggest crackdown happened on Thursday in Sao Paulo when police fired rubber bullets and tear gas in clashes that injured more than 100 people, including 15 journalists, some of whom said they were deliberately targeted.

There's even a eyewitness report, together with pictures and videos of the police brutality by the poster "Canslli" here [abovetopsecret.com] .

But the problem, again, was the government and it's police. They cowardly shot tear gas and rubber bullets on people who were peacefully protesting or just passing by (many reporters say that the police shot first, creating chaos)...

A journalist from Folha de São Paulo was hit in the eye by a rubber bullet while she was sitting on a sidewalk talking with some other journalists...

A lady who was just passing by, also hit by rubber bullets...

Protesters surrendering to the police, only to be shot after...

A homeless boy, that lives on one of the streets engulfed in chaos, was shot in the leg by a rubber bullet. Some people took him to a drugstore to receive treatment...

Here is a video of some people who were chanting "No Violence!" until the cops shot rubber bullets at them...

So while you sit safely at home smugly spinning lies to support your ideological war against the left, understand that there are real people with real issues who are bleeding and dying in the riots. At least respect that.

Re:Your "background" and conclusions are wrong (1)

stenvar (2789879) | about a year ago | (#44068721)

So while you sit safely at home smugly spinning lies to support your ideological war against the left,

So you say it's a "lie" that the protests started the way Reuters says they started? They didn't start because of bus ticket hikes? They aren't occurring among more educated groups, as opposed to among the poorest of the poor?

If you had done some proper research, you would have discovered that the "middle class" did not support the protest, it started off peacefully and only gained traction after abusive police crackdowns. [nydailynews.com]

Of course, the middle class doesn't like violent protests. It also doesn't like price hikes on government provided services. And it doesn't like higher taxes. You don't expect any kind of consistency in people's political choices, do you?

understand that there are real people with real issues who are bleeding and dying in the riots. At least respect that.

So maybe you can explain what those "real issues" are, because from the news reports, it looks like what I described. The fact that protests over public service fee hikes sometimes gets violent is not an explanation for the cause of these unrests in the first place.

Oh, and knock off the self-righteous indignation. No, you are not morally superior because you weave feigned compassion into your ideology.

Re:Your "background" and conclusions are wrong (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069183)

So you say it's a "lie" that the protests started the way Reuters says they started? They didn't start because of bus ticket hikes? They aren't occurring among more educated groups, as opposed to among the poorest of the poor?

You need to be pay more attention to the situation. To find out what's really going down in Brazil, you need to watch Hillbilly Mutt 20's reaction to your comment. This protest is not happening because people want free stuff.

Re:Your "background" and conclusions are wrong (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44070637)

Its not government provided services. Its fully business, owned by corporations. People cried the prices were way too expensive, they (the corporations) demanded tax cuts in order to cut prices, they got it and then they increased the prices instead of lowering it.

You are factually wrong and way off the target with this bullshit "BUT THEY WANTED FREE STUFF!!! SOCIALISM!".

Re:Your "background" and conclusions are wrong (1)

ae1294 (1547521) | about a year ago | (#44073319)

Oh, and knock off the self-righteous indignation. No, you are not morally superior because you weave feigned compassion into your ideology.

Fucking sociopath..

Re:just some background (1)

lvxferre (2470098) | about a year ago | (#44068119)

Actually, PT is centrist - the name only means that it has roots in "trabalhismo" (labour movement).

I'll just mention that a right-wing or a left-wing party in this circumstance would have the same kind of trouble, as long as it was so incompetent and dishonest as PT (PSDB, center-right, I'm looking at you).

Re:just some background (1)

stenvar (2789879) | about a year ago | (#44068741)

Actually, PT is centrist - the name only means that it has roots in "trabalhismo" (labour movement).

In what way? They are generally described as "center-left" or "social democratic", which makes them a left-wing party.

I'll just mention that a right-wing or a left-wing party in this circumstance would have the same kind of trouble, as long as it was so incompetent and dishonest as PT (PSDB, center-right, I'm looking at you).

Well, yes, it would have the same kind of trouble, as I said in my message: "if Brazil had a free market kind of government, some people would be protesting against that as well because they think they aren't getting their 'fair share'".

The question is: how do you avoid this kind of trouble? Any suggestions?

Re:just some background (1)

alexgieg (948359) | about a year ago | (#44069641)

Actually, PT is centrist - the name only means that it has roots in "trabalhismo" (labour movement).

Incorrect. If you read PT's internal documentation you see references to left wing intellectuals for everything, and nothing from right wing ones. It goes from Marx, Lenin and Trotsky to Gramsci, passing through Frankfurtians and a few others. To be very technical, PT is a middle-left party composed of internal tendencies that range from the extreme left to center left.

I'll just mention that a right-wing or a left-wing party in this circumstance would have the same kind of trouble, as long as it was so incompetent and dishonest as PT (PSDB, center-right, I'm looking at you).

And that's incorrect too. PSDB's intellectual references range from Fabianism to contemporaneous social democracy and a range of 3rd ways. Now and then they reference some non-left-wing intellectual, but its quite rare too. It's a center-left party.

If you want actual center parties, look at DEM, PP and the majority of the smaller parties.

As for right-wing parties, similar to the Republicans in the US, we have none. Yes, we do have a few right-wingers scattered around in smaller parties, but the parties themselves have no ideological tendency, so they're all programmatically center.

Re:just some background (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44070751)

Actually, on the average, PT's politicians tend farther to the left than you would think from looking at Presidents Lula and Dilma. When Lula rose to power, he showed the finger to the more radical members of the Party, by embracing the economic reforms introduced by his two immediate predecessors Itamar and FHC. Since Dilma took Lula's place, she has been mostly following suit.

Re:just some background (1)

oreiasecaman (2466136) | about a year ago | (#44072505)

I'd definitely classify DEM as right-wing. Also PSC (whacko evangelical right-wing).

Re:just some background (1)

alexgieg (948359) | about a year ago | (#44072745)

I'd definitely classify DEM as right-wing. Also PSC (whacko evangelical right-wing).

You'd because we lack what to compare them to. If you compare the DEM or PSC side-by-side to the US GOP or UK Tory parties, both fit squarely in the center of the political spectrum. This is easy to see when you also consider that for a party to really be "in the right" it must have clear political goals based on clear right-wing political theories. DEM has none, literally. Many years ago they had a small tendency towards adopting some libertarian ideals, but they gave up on that. PSC, on the other hand, has some vague Bible-based moralism, but that's that, no overarching ideological positions on anything else. Republicans and Tories, on the other hand, have whole libraries of political theory, full blown house intellectuals, active think tanks producing papers and policy proposals etc., plus competing internal tendencies as varied and complex as those we find within PT. Thus, there's no real right wing party in Brazil, only a few wannabes and tons of centrists.

MOD PARENT UP! (1)

Zaatxe (939368) | about a year ago | (#44069073)

I don't get why the parent post got a Troll modding. I live in Brazil and I think I wouldn't have described it better.

Re:just some background (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44070519)

Ok, since you don't know what happened and/or is blatantly trolling, let me explain a bit...

The bus companies fat cats got some tax cuts from the government in order to lower their prices... they laughed at it and increased their prices instead. And if you are thinking why buses are important in Brazil, keep in mind cars are much more expensive than in the US.

The fact that we have lots of teenagers without school (because simply there is not enough school for them) and instead of building new schools they handed the money (billions) to a foreign entity (FIFA) to make stupid sports events didn't help either.

So people protested... they got arrested, shooted with rubber balls, beated, and sprayed with pepper gas. Then the whole country started protesting...

Re:just some background (1)

ae1294 (1547521) | about a year ago | (#44073187)

When are people like you going to learn that the "free market" is a fucking lie. There will never be such a thing. Once one company gets big enough it will starve out every other company and then you will just have that one monopoly.It will charge whatever it likes and pay off / sue whomever it needs to in order to maintain its positions. Advocating any extreme position is stupid. You can't have a perfect free market just like you can't have a perfect socialist government. The answer is always somewhere in the middle...

Monitoring public areas.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067861)

is the only way to get usefull information and fight back crime ! : Camera [youtube.com]

solving a problem by... burying your head (1)

Tastecicles (1153671) | about a year ago | (#44067907)

There are two ways to deal with civil protest.

The first, is to put down any protest with violence. Let the peons know who's boss.
The second way, and the one more likely not to get you murdered, is to find out what the problem is and sort that out.

Re:solving a problem by... burying your head (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44068005)

unless "the problem" is you, the politician as the protesters seem to suggest.

this is typical (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44067927)

this is very common for socialist governments -- the Soviet Union started this way -- Communist China does this every day -- North Korea does the same -- problem is leftist regimes kill more people than Hitler -- Sorry for people killed under that regime but Communist regimes did worse. It is time they are recognized for such crimes.

So why is Obama kissing Russian/Chinese/North Korean ass?

He is

Re:this is typical (2)

Issarlk (1429361) | about a year ago | (#44068007)

> So why is Obama kissing Russian/Chinese/North Korean ass?

Because they have nukes?
Next question please.

a local look (5, Informative)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#44068027)

brazilian here:

The main problem, as far as I see, it's not the federal government: are the states and municipal ones.
The main riots begun against the price of the bus in the main cities (first in Porto Alegre in April, and took a big shape after Sao Paulo tried to raise the price of the bus ticket in may-june). People are beat by the local polices without clear reason (plus rubber bullets and moral gas) and lots of arrests are being made without a reason (in Sao Paulo the local police arrested hundreds of people with possession of VINEGAR*).

But look how crazy this sounds: the mayor of Sao Paulo (the city) is a left-wing (or center-left) workers party. The governor of Sao Paulo (the state) is a right-wing almost tea-party-look-a-like. The riots were against the mayor, but the state used its force (police). In porto alegre, the mayor is a center-right-wing and the state government is a left-wing workers party. The same: the riots were against the mayor, and the police (controled by the governor) was used in a brutal way (not so hard as sao paulo, but brutal) against the rioters.

Now that the main cities agreed to lower the price of the bus ticket (porto alegre in May and several other cities in the last few days), the riots looks more like french 68 riots than anything else. It's not about the price of the bus ticket anymore, but about the political and social culture in Brazil (corruption, a lack of social control, etc).

*Vinegar is used to decrease the effects of tear gas.
** One last thing: be careful with brazilian newspapers. Most of them will stand for its own agenda and they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Re:a local look (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44068073)

The governor of Sao Paulo (the state) is a right-wing almost tea-party-look-a-like.

This is complete and utter bullshit. You either have no idea who Alckmin is or you have no idea what the tea party is.

Re:a local look (2)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#44068085)

What is outside always look worst, isn't? ;)
But back to reality: Alckmin is a religious political figure from the right-wing sector of a right-wing party. Maybe he don't act like the tea party - and of course, he isn't so dumb as Sarah Palin - but at the end, it's not so different.

Re:a local look (1)

FrangoAssado (561740) | about a year ago | (#44068149)

You're delusional. Alckmin is right-wing for Brazilian standards, but his social programs would be considered borderline socialist in the USA.

Just look at how Obama is accused of being socialist for Obamacare, which is not even universal healthcare.

Re:a local look (2)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#44068181)

You should know that Alckmin have a program to create vouchers insted of public healthcare.
This is EXACTLY what Friedman suggests (a right-wing intellectual, even for USA standards).

Otherwise, Alckmin several times said He is against welfare - the 'bolsa-família' - (that even the right-wing governments in USA keep as 'food-stamps').

So, as you see, he IS right-wing for brazilian standards and he is right-wing even by american standards.

Re:a local look (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44068221)

Alckmin is against "bolsa-familia" only because that's a hugely popular program from his opposing party. His government has its own share of welfare programs, so he's obviously not against welfare in general.

he is right-wing even by american standards

That's insane. You're talking about a country who thinks that universal healthcare is socialism.

Re:a local look (1)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#44068263)

Don't think everyone in USA thinks the same. Lots of people there support universal healthcare (including co-ops of New York Times, for instance).
The american right-wing-bat-shit-crazy thinks universal healthcare is socialism. And, yes, they have lots of voice there - but still, it's not the 'country'.

Re:a local look (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44068185)

Alckmin is a religious political figure

Are you sure you know what that means? Alckmin is religious, but he is in no way a religious political figure.

Re:a local look (1)

lvxferre (2470098) | about a year ago | (#44068197)

I guess he means that people see Alckmin as a "religious" solution for the problems.

(At least, from what I see, only for Paulistas.)

Re:a local look (2)

lvxferre (2470098) | about a year ago | (#44068143)

** One last thing: be careful with brazilian newspapers. Most of them will stand for its own agenda and they are part of the problem, not the solution.

Agreed. AND TVS, SPECIALLY GLOBO. That... thing manages to distort news even worse than newspapers.

Piá, at least us Southerners have some [small] hope with the possibility of independence (although O Sul é meu País is lazy as fuck), but what worries me most are the others...

Re:a local look (1)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#44068195)

I don't think the south-Brazil will become independent. Maybe is even more possible that other countries will merge Brazil (not now, of course, but in the long term).
As I see, in 50 years, all the Mercosul will be one country. And maybe that's when this country will be trully federal. (Actually, I think the main hope for south-Brazil it's not the independence, but the real federalization of the country).

Just guessing.

Re:a local look (1)

lvxferre (2470098) | about a year ago | (#44068239)

I disagree, since I've seen more often larger countries breaking into smaller ones (Yugoslavia, South Sudan, etc.) than countries merging, thus seeing an Araucárias Federation of sorts or even three Republics spawning from former South wouldn't be improbable. Also, economic blocs aren't replacing the countries, but making countries matter less and less.

But my point is more along those lines: worst hypothesis, if shit hits the fan that bad, we still have this possibility, and enough political power to do so. But what about the others? Specially, what about the North, the often forgotten region, in some aspects more in need than Northeast?

Re:a local look (1)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#44068287)

I think the main problem of the north and northeast is exactly the budget help they receive from the south and southeast.
The owners of the northeast (oligarchies) steal money exactly because this money came from elsewere. If it come from the pockets of their own people, probably this people will be very pissed off.

Re:a local look (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069485)

You do realize that the "Sul é meu paÃs" is one of the most fascist movements still in existance today in Brazil, right?

Re:a local look (1)

tequila_j (1989882) | about a year ago | (#44068607)

The main problem, as far as I see, it's not the federal government: are the states and municipal ones.

No, it is not, and the President's speech being booed at the opening of the world cup is a good example. The problem with the bus ticket price, by the other side, is a municipal and state problem ** I am not sure that left/center/right still exists. There are the ones that control (more), and the ones that want to control (more), and somehow they got scared together this time.

Re:a local look (1)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#44070891)

I don't like anedoctes to understand the reality - Statistics are always better. So, let's see:
The personal aproval rating of the president is 71% - yes, it was 79% one year ago, but is still a very high aproval rating.
In the government aproval rating, ONLY 13% thinks it's 'bad' or 'terrible' (in pt-br: ruim ou péssimo). It was 7% at the beggining of the year, but is still a aproval.
If you want to look by yourself: http://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2013/06/aprovacao-do-governo-dilma-vai-55-aponta-pesquisa-ibope.html [globo.com]

Re:a local look (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069287)

"almost tea-party-look-a-like" are you out of your mind? they're right wing and that's it... not tea-party-wackos alike in any way! just because he doesn't follow your (or mine for the matters) ideologies, doesn't mean you can compare him to the biggest bunch of wackos there's is like he is some kind of universal evil been!

Re:a local look (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069749)

Another brazilian here.
Obligatory view for anyone wanting to understand the situation, AND for anyone planning to go to Brazil on the next few years (including world cup)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7t60-ro_5U [youtube.com]

Point (1)

Optimal Cynic (2886377) | about a year ago | (#44068057)

Yet another case of a government Missing. The. Point.

Re:Point (1)

lvxferre (2470098) | about a year ago | (#44068165)

Yet another case of a government Missing. The. Point.

Latin American governments more often than not miss completely the point. And this goes beyond the old right vs. center vs. left discussion - it's about competence.

Equivalent to the CIA? (1)

Seumas (6865) | about a year ago | (#44068543)

I'm sorry, but the CIA is not supposed to collect intelligence to operate against its own citizens. Since that sounds like what ABIN is doing, it is therefore not the "Brazilian version of the CIA".

Unless ABIN is also not supposed to spy on their citizens, but is doing it *anyway* and doesn't give a fuck, in which case they are exactly equivalent to the CIA.

Re:Equivalent to the CIA? (1)

xvan (2935999) | about a year ago | (#44068665)

Most countries don't have the USA way of having multiple agencies that in the end take care of the same thing.
Like CIA, NSA, FBI bullshit.

They also don't have budget to have several and need to optimise resources.

make it a non issue (1)

hurwak-feg (2955853) | about a year ago | (#44068845)

How about governments stop riots by doing what is in the best interest of the population they are responsible for? If people think their government is fair and acting in their best interest, there is no reason to riot.

Re:make it a non issue (1)

ScentCone (795499) | about a year ago | (#44068941)

If people think their government is fair and acting in their best interest, there is no reason to riot.

The problem is that some people's idea of "fair" is "getting free stuff paid for by other people." When the taxpayers are out of cash to buy the free stuff, the people used to getting the free stuff get mad and burn the town they live in to show how upset they are. Quick! Give get some money from the guy whose store is being trashed, and use it to give the people who are smashing his windows some more free stuff! Whew. Crisis averted.

Ok, here is an account from someone from the riots (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44068849)

Look, there are two things that must be kept in mind about how things works in Brazil.

1. The police _really_ doesn't know better. They are ill trained and scared of riots. This means it is rather easy to start a major mess unless specific pressure against the use of rubber shots/tear gas is issued. That explains what happened in the first days.

2. We have quite a large amount of bandits that are just waiting for an opportunity to strike. And I don't mean the government (although the description fits all the *four* "powers" in Brazil just fine: press, judiciary, executive and legislative).

Yesterday, there were hundreds of thousands protesting in my city. It was peaceful, it was beatifull, and the police was prepared ahead of time to NOT go bonkers. After the main body of people went home, malcontents and bandits decided to start destroying public buildings in order to create a diversion. Their objective is only to destroy in order to create enough of a mess to be able to pillage stores. The bus fare was ALREADY reduced from R$ 3.30 to R$ 3.00 in the previous day, so there really wasn't much of a reason to protest[1]

The end result? People injured, lots of property destruction, and the city I live in is a major mess. The police was told to not shot the criminals dead just in case there were decent people caught in the middle. In Rio de Janeiro, it was MUCH worse yesterday.

It will get worse.

following in the footsteps of giants. (1)

nimbius (983462) | about a year ago | (#44069077)

the US did this during the occupy protests. to their credit, it was a largely successful means of quelling civil unrest in New York, preventing unrest in other cities, and downplaying the message that the united states class is a lemon socialism designed to perpetuate a class stratification of the rich and the rest of us.

Huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069263)

If Brazilian law prohibits "this kind of wiretapping" how would the legality be unknown. Is there some question whether listening in on social media is illegal -- or not -- because there may not be a phone connection involved? They're going play the "semantics" card? No phone call therefore legal?

Neither competence nor budget... but (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069449)

Off the small budget they've got, most goes on salaries for technically incompetent people, while the remaining is diverted to "ghost" companies registered in the name of relatives or deceased people. Through a few more operations, that cash disappears somewhere in Switzerland. That said, nothing stops them from requesting the help of other nations, as it happened in 1964 when the US stationed 2 aircraft carriers, oil tankers and generous amounts of weapons and ammunition (Operation Brother Sam)*.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat [wikipedia.org]

Re:Neither competence nor budget... but (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44069951)

By "they" I mean ABIN.

The Summer of Riots has only begun. (3, Interesting)

Remus Shepherd (32833) | about a year ago | (#44069997)

Doesn't everybody remember last year, when multiple reports came out from sociologists saying that food prices cause riots, and that food prices worldwide were expected to peak in the summer of 2013? Headlines like 'We have until August 2013 before riots sweep the globe', and 'We have one year before everything explodes' -- that doesn't ring a bell for anyone else?

Social unrest is correlated to the price of necessary commodities. When the poor cannot afford basic necessities, they have no choice but to get violent. Because of crop failures last year, this year is primed for social unrest EVERYWHERE.

The Arxiv paper demonstrating the correlation, based on data from the 2008 food riots. [arxiv.org]
An article warning us from last year. [technologyreview.com] And another. [inhabitat.com] And another. [aljazeera.com]

Sociologists have known this was coming. Governments should have known this was coming. It's going to be a brutal, bloody summer. Get ready.

smart move there, Brazil (1)

slashmydots (2189826) | about a year ago | (#44070365)

Everyone knows the age old strategy that they're using. Whenever your people are super mad at you and rioting and protesting, the first thing you should do is something to piss them off more.
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