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US Hacked Chinese University Network

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the plot-thickens dept.

China 330

An anonymous reader writes "Hong Kong's South China Morning Post reports that Tsinghua University, widely regarded as the mainland's top education and research institute, was the target of extensive hacking by U.S. spies this year, according to information leaked by Edward Snowden. The information also showed that the attacks on Tsinghua University were intensive and concerted efforts. In one single day of January, at least 63 computers and servers in Tsinghua University have been hacked by the NSA. The university is home to one of the mainland's six major backbone networks, the China Education and Research Network from where internet data from millions of Chinese citizens could be mined. Universities in Hong Kong and the mainland were revealed as targets of NSA's cyber-snooping activities last week when Snowden claimed the Chinese University of Hong Kong had been hacked." The U.S. government is reportedly hacking into Chinese mobile phone companies as well for access to text messages. In related news, the U.S. has asked Hong Kong to extradite Snowden, and the petition to pardon him has met that 100,000 signature threshold required for an official response from the administration.

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330 comments

Snowden is on a flight to Moscow (2)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year ago | (#44083607)

Re:Snowden is on a flight to Moscow (2)

Catmeat (20653) | about a year ago | (#44083677)

Presumably a deal has already been struck with the Russians -Âa debriefing in exchange for sanctuary.

Given his alternative is likely 50 years of solitary confinement in a concrete box in a Supermax, it's hard to blame him.

Looks like Moscow ain't the final destination (3, Interesting)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year ago | (#44083687)

BBC is reporting that Moscow may NOT be the final destination for Snowden

BBC is speculating that Snowden is heading to either Ecuador or Cuba

Re:Looks like Moscow ain't the final destination (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44084033)

CBC is reporting that it is to Cuba and from there to Venezuella

Traitor on the run! (1, Informative)

arcite (661011) | about a year ago | (#44083721)

He can run, but he cannot hide. South America is American's backyard. There will be no safe harbor there. Any country that shelters Snowden in SA will feel the full diplomatic weight of the great Empire breathing down their neck.

**WHO** is the real traitor ? (5, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year ago | (#44083729)

Snowden a traitor ??

What about the government of the United States which has violated the Constitutions of the United States ???

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083749)

standard operating procedures?

Re: **WHO** is the real traitor ? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083755)

Snowmen. His rant about an "architecture of oppression" generates some empathy, but this is straight up treason.

Re: **WHO** is the real traitor ? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083853)

Ahhhh bullshit. Snowden is a true patriot. It's the NSA who are the treasonous cunts.

Re: **WHO** is the real traitor ? (4, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084027)

Indeed. He committed treason against those who, from many appearances, have committed treason (using the same definition).

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (-1, Troll)

arcite (661011) | about a year ago | (#44083757)

Communist China steals our IP and infiltrates every major American corporation. The NSA is there to protect American interests and maintain a technological and strategic edge over rivals. This is the cost of remaining the sole superpower in the world. So people give up the semblance of privacy, in exchange for global dominance of American policy - a fair trade.

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (2, Insightful)

c0lo (1497653) | about a year ago | (#44083781)

Communist China steals our IP and infiltrates every major American corporation.

Uh, oh... and NSA wanted the IP back, I see.

The NSA is there to protect American interests and maintain a technological and strategic edge over rivals.

If you call China a rival already, why do you complain when China hacks you?

This is the cost of remaining the sole superpower in the world. So people give up the semblance of privacy, in exchange for global dominance of American policy - a fair trade.

I wonder how much of this post is kidding? Poe's law at it's best.

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (1, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084039)

I'm favoring it as satire.

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about a year ago | (#44084069)

I wonder how much of this post is kidding? Poe's law at it's best.

You might find that has an unexpected application.

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (1, Troll)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about a year ago | (#44083847)

China is about as much communist these days as the US is a democratic free state in the spirit of the Founding Fathers. Also, your still have that "IP", go put it to some good use. And also, "remaining the sole superpower" is difficult when the horse has already left the barn. Tough luck.

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083917)

Learn your own history:

Piracy and Fraud Propelled the U.S. Industrial Revolution

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-propelled-the-u-s-industrial-revolution.html

I guess it was different then, a young nation trying to catch up. Are you able to see any parallels?

What Hamilton’s Manifesto? When the "founding father" pitches that piracy is ok is is different when a head of the Chinese government makes the same statement?

 

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (4, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084031)

So...why does the NSA help build back-doors into our products? This makes them less secure, not more so.

No, this is not about good guy versus bad guy. It's about two people fighting to see who gets to be your master.

Re:**WHO** is the real traitor ? (1, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | about a year ago | (#44084053)

**WHO** is the real traitor ?

Snowden a traitor ??

What about the government of the United States which has violated the Constitutions of the United States ???

Let me see.....

Snowden took highly classified information, fled the country to a communist nation with nuclear weapons pointed at the United States and 3,000 front companies conducting espionage within its borders, from there he started off by revealing highly classified intelligence programs intended to safeguard American live, then went on to reveal details about the highly classified operations of an American ally. Up to this point some people could talk themselves into the position that he was performing some sort of service to Americans. He then proceeded to expose American intelligence operations with no direct impact on the constitutional rights of American citizens, and then fled extradition. He has caused both potential security and diplomatic problems for the US, and there may be significant economic fallout as well.

The US Congress, on the other hand, has passed various laws both empowering and regulating the behavior of the executive branch intelligence agencies. Many of those laws have been tested in courts and survived the challenge. The courts have overseen the actions of the intelligence agencies, as has Congress, and the executive branch. Accepting this is unpopular with some people, especially for those whose sole recognized authority is the pristine Constitution as written. They can't find the basis for these actions in their personal copy of the Constitution, and probably find current revelations objectionable under at least the 4th Amendment, maybe the 5th, and possibly others. Of course they are overlooking the President's Article II powers which have been recognized in courts, as well the Law of War and the differences between it and ordinary criminal law in terms of the constitution. Unable to recognize why the gap between current practice and their document from 1789 exists, the explanation becomes corruption and traitors instead of 220 years of jurisprudence, precedents that must be considered, and the collective experience of the nation and its judiciary in applying the Constitution, not to mention the Authorization for Use of Military Force the Congress passed which is legally a declaration of war. (And no, the fact that the conflict might last a long time doesn't change anything in that regard, nor does the fact that it is al Qaida.)

Although I believe that the national security apparatus in a democracy must be watched, and some of the revelations to be disquieting in light of what has been going on at the IRS, I don't find this a hard choice.

Re: a true american hero like... Neil Armstrong (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083807)

I'm quite sure most people who've ever heard of him consider him being a true american hero.
 
 

Especially Edward Snowden is a hero to many young Americans, poll suggests [yahoo.com] . Edward Snowden performed a public service in leaking information about NSA programs, say 60 percent of Americans age 18 to 29, according to a poll. Tea partyers and liberals also approve.

Re:Traitor on the run! (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#44083925)

Yes because the US controls all of SA, sure that is why Chavez was allowed to control Venezuela turning into a communist nation in our own back yard and why his chosen successor was able to take power after his death. Its also why Cuba managed its continued existence thru the entire cold war.

Re:Snowden is on a flight to Moscow (1)

Pathoth (2637433) | about a year ago | (#44083939)

Don't be surprised when he then reveals something about us spying on the Russians- in the hope that their outraged citizens will lobby their government to give him asylum. If Russia doesn't work, I wonder where he'll go next... *hop* *hop* *hop* "Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wabbits"

big effing news (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083641)

Everybody is hacking everyone else, enemies, neutrals, friends allies.

By getting rid of spy agencies, we'd probably be able to do away with more than 99% af all cyber crime.

Re:big effing news (5, Insightful)

Luckyo (1726890) | about a year ago | (#44083737)

But only one nation rides around on a high horse openly accusing others of it all the time. And that nation just got caught doing the exact thing it accuses everyone else of doing, and doing it on the scale that many didn't even think possible.

Re:big effing news (0)

Servaas (1050156) | about a year ago | (#44083775)

Why is Luckya not voted through the roof for telling the truth??

Re: on a high horse openly accusing others (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083829)

Oh come on, for pity's sake, show a little intelligence, can't you? All governments spy on all nations including their own, regardless of their politics. Every government is certain that it is rightly in power and should rightly remain there "for the greater good"; all those holding power will only grudgingly ever give it up.

If a nation thinks it's some kind of "democracy" then a rigged election might take place; otherwise force will be required, and that always boils down to blood, agony, torture, mass murder, pillage, rape, mutilations, and harm to enormous numbers of human beings both guilty and innocent. Once the revolution / uprising / coup / civil war / extermination / ethnic cleansing / police charge / insurgency / call it whatever you like stumbles to a pause because everybody involved is either dead or sick of the carnage, it's then just a matter of time before it all starts up again.

Now, can we all get over ourselves and talk about something more interesting please?

Re: on a high horse openly accusing others (4, Interesting)

Luckyo (1726890) | about a year ago | (#44083973)

Sure. Let's talk about Stasi and how they could only pull spying on much lesser scale. Surely that was also justified?

Re:big effing news (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083901)

All the nations ride that high horse. We just don't get to see the Chinese/Russian/etc. propaganda about the evil West - only our propaganda about the evil East.

Re:big effing news (1)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084045)

The right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing. This works sometimes to the government's benefit, as uninformed members can truthfully say "I have no knowledge of us spying on foreign nations," giving that much needed air of confusion / doubt.

Re:big effing news (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44084111)

It's the purpose of the NSA to spy on other nations. The US is neither hiding it nor apologizing for that. The NSA scandal is about the NSA spying on US citizens, something that is quite illegal under US law.

As for spying against other nations, what crosses the line is government-sponsored industrial espionage. It's clear Europeans and the Chinese have been doing that. Whether the NSA has been doing it remains to be seen.

Re:big effing news (1)

aliquis (678370) | about a year ago | (#44083769)

Exactly:
http://www.fra.se/omfra/fragorochsvar/spaningsomraden.90.html [www.fra.se]
http://www.fra.se/omfra/myndighetenfra/uppdragsgivare.87.html [www.fra.se]

Would be pretty weird if the NSA didn't spied on anyone ..
Just interesting to know how much or little if it there is.

We've all heard the old Echelon talk and I guess many of us has typed things just to make it react if it exist :D, does that mean I'm not welcome to the US any more? :/. I'm actually no terrorist! Honestly! I don't even have a beard :/, just somewhat unshaved/trimmed.

Was this NSA stuff not mentioned in the stats Google posted even before telling how many requests they got from different states (or whatever to call them/it)?

Re:big effing news (1)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084041)

I doubt that, but we will be able to do away with the 2000% projected increase that comes with them deciding that 'we need a cyber-war.'

If China (5, Funny)

purnima (243606) | about a year ago | (#44083665)

got nothing to hide, then China has nothing to worry about.

I am guessing that you have nothing to hide (0)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year ago | (#44083681)

Am I right ??

Re:I am guessing that you have nothing to hide (1)

purnima (243606) | about a year ago | (#44083705)

snark. humour. of course, it's ridiculous. But I guess it is far harder to detect humour aimed at US exceptionalism when it is so engrained.

Re:I am guessing that you have nothing to hide (2, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | about a year ago | (#44083845)

So you see no difference between a random internet poster and the most populous nation on earth, Communist China, which has nuclear weapons pointed at the United States, 3,000 front companies in the US conducting espionage, and which is actively encroaching upon the territory of its neighbors, some of which are US allies?

You see no way in which they might be approached differently?

Re:I am guessing that you have nothing to hide (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083937)

China, that is the nation which pledged a no fist strike policy under with absolutely no conditions back in 1964 an the US later adopted in 2010?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use

How many nuclear weapons does the US have "pointed" at China? I suppose "US the good" so its OK to have a vast nuclear arsenal but "china the bad" so its not OK?

The US, isn't that the nation which bombed Japan not once but twice, when many thought they would have surrendered anyhow?

As I posted elsewhere, the US is pretty active when it comes to espionage going back to its founding:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-propelled-the-u-s-industrial-revolution.html

What do you call it when "tourists" travel to another nation explicitly to steal technology and import said technology when its against the law?

Re:I am guessing that you have nothing to hide (2)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#44083951)

I see no reason we should fight a dangerous shadow war, while we continue to pump billions into there economy every year with free trade agreements. No I don't get that. Infact as hard as US manufacturing has been hit, China probably still needs us more than we need it.

We *could* produce everything we need. Prices would soar it would severely stress our economy but it would probably collapse China's if we simply cut off trade. If their behavior is really belligerent if they really are working against our interests than we should seize the moral high ground call it out in public and deal with it. Fighting where we provide the enemy with wealth and technology; has to be the stupidest foreign policy ever tried.

Re:I am guessing that you have nothing to hide (2, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | about a year ago | (#44084117)

So do you have any policy recommendations for handing the 3,000 front companies that China has in the US for espionage, or their continuing efforts at hacking to both steal valuable data and establish control of systems for future use?

So far you seem to be advocating that the US simply be a target. That tends to not work out well in the long run.

Re:I am guessing that you have nothing to hide (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44084127)

Unification of China = 221 BCE, US independence = 1776
China has been around for a VERY long time so they might know a thing or two about being self-reliant.

We *could* produce everything we need..

You pump billions into their economy for one simple reason, corporate profits. How many goods could be manufactured in the US without having prices soar but corp profits fall?

Ever wonder what the markups on some of these goods is?
Walmart and the Walton family are not rolling in cash because importing Chinese goods is a low margin business.

Re:If China (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year ago | (#44083859)

got nothing to hide, then China has nothing to worry about.

yeah but what's usa gonna do when they start asking nsa operatives to be extradited to china for spying charges...

This just proves Snowden is working for red China (1, Troll)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083679)

You can argue that exposing NSA's domestic spying operation is for the good of US people, but exposing hacking of a Chinese university serves no US interests whatsoever, it only gives China the moral high ground to continue its cyber attack against the US. If this is not planned by the central committee of the communist party, I don't know what is.

Whoa, hold your horses !! (1)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year ago | (#44083699)

Snowden is reportedly heading for Moscow, as we speak

http://slashdot.org/submission/2747589/us-pressuring-hong-kong-to-arrest-snowden-while-snowden-has-flown-to-moscow [slashdot.org]

Are you going to change your tune now, buddy ?

Re:Whoa, hold your horses !! (1)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083751)

So you think China would be stupid enough to protect their spy openly? They will just use one of their allies to do their bidding.

Re: This just proves Snowden is working for red Ch (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083707)

It's the reason why China has hacked back.....

Re:This just proves Snowden is working for red Chi (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083715)

Yeah, that's it. Because the NSA and US government has the moral right to hack everybody and lie, even to their own citizens. Hypocrisy up to 9000.

Of course they have the moral high ground (1)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083759)

against China, you couldn't even have this conversation on any Chinese network, that's why US government has the moral high ground against communist China.

Re:Of course they have the moral high ground (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083883)

against China, you couldn't even have this conversation on any Chinese network, that's why US government has the moral high ground against communist China.

Don't you find it disheartening at all that this is always questioned?

When it comes to how the nation treats its population you seldom see the U.S. compared to civilized nations.
If you use the worst nations in the world to justify what your government does then you will end up among the worst.

You can tell a lot of man by the people he compares himself to.

Re:Of course they have the moral high ground (3, Insightful)

Bert64 (520050) | about a year ago | (#44083895)

Blocking a conversation is obvious and the people know exactly where they stand...
Allowing the conversation to take place, while secretly monitoring it could be far worse, people could receive subtle comeback for expressing their views and have no idea why its happening.

Re:Of course they have the moral high ground (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#44083959)

Being better than a bunch of totalitarian scum bags is hardly a thing to be proud of. Morals and Ethics are not supposed to be relative. Its like saying a guy who only beats people is better than rapist. It might be true but you still lock both of them away.

Re:Of course they have the moral high ground (1)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084067)

But we aren't China, we have Freedom of Speech and a much higher moral pedigree to hold ourselves up to, so what's up this that?

"Children are starving in Africa, so eat your lima beans." Non-sequitur "The Chinese government oppresses / censors its people. Be thankful the American government lets you talk as freely as it does."

Re:This just proves Snowden is working for red Chi (1)

Goaway (82658) | about a year ago | (#44083733)

Remember, truth is entirely irrelevant. What is important is to not let anyone know you are a hypocrite!

No, what's important is not let anyone know you're (1)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083763)

a Chinese propaganda officer, so called "50 cents".

Re:No, what's important is not let anyone know you (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083941)

a Chinese propaganda officer, so called "50 cents".

As opposed to a US propaganda officer that leverages software to allow one person [guardian.co.uk] to impersonate multiple people at the same time [rawstory.com] ?

Of course, they couldn't possibly be on US social sites, just like the NSA cannot and does not spy on US citizens. The intelligence service said so and if you can't trust our intelligence agencies, then who can you trust.

Re:This just proves Snowden is working for red Chi (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about a year ago | (#44083747)

You can argue that exposing NSA's domestic spying operation is for the good of US people, but exposing hacking of a Chinese university serves no US interests whatsoever, it only gives China the moral high ground to continue its cyber attack against the US. If this is not planned by the central committee of the communist party, I don't know what is.

Nice... It's Snowden fault that NSA hacked the Chinese university, isn't it?
Or... having NSA hacking the Chinese is a patriotic gesture now?

He shouldn't reveal the hacking of Chinese (0)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083849)

Of course NSA hacking the Chinese is a patriotic gesture, Chinese government is evil, it's as simple as that.

Re:He shouldn't reveal the hacking of Chinese (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083967)

You must be a troll..

What you are saying is that action A done by nation X is bad, but when action A is done by nation Y its good? You must be a real hoot to be around!

Or the NSA lied (again) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083765)

You only have the NSA words that China is behind all the hacking and they've proved to be consistently liars, even to Congress, even when under oath:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/seanlawson/2013/06/06/did-intelligence-officials-lie-to-congress-about-nsa-domestic-spying/

I know my data logs always showed USA and Eastern europe as the major sources of attacks to my SSH ports. China was there but not much.

So Occam Razor suggests NSA made another false flag operation, which in turn gave them the $4 billion extra cyber-budget needed to build all those big data centers. How does big data centers fix hacking again? It doesn't. Neither does tapping US networks, or grabbing phone meta data and phone calls.

Remember 'Stuxnet is a wakeup call?'... except we know suspect NSA made Stuxnet to attack Iran!

So try the 'Red Menace' if you will, but their your biggest supplier, and you are their biggest customer in which they've invested a lot of money, and none of these claims make sense.

Nobody can tell bigger lies than communist China (2)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083865)

They killed millions of their own people and get away with it, comparing to them NSA is just child's play. So NSA lied to congress, at least the US has a congress which can catch NSA lying, there's an oath which NSA is supposed to be following. There's no such thing in China, the party determines everything, and if you don't agree with the party, it's the labor camps for you.

Acceptance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083913)

"So NSA lied to congress,"
Accepting there's a problem is the first step in any fix. Good.

I don't care less about China. The same applies to whether it was NSA's claim about Russia, or KajiggyStania, or Eurasia. The claim the NSA made no sense, they used the claim to justify the massive data center, we find the massive data center is for domestic spying, ergo Occams Razor suggests the claim was false for the purpose of getting budget.

The idea that we should support the NSA lies (and surveillance of *us*) because KajiggyStania is run by evil Baboon people makes no sense.

Re:Nobody can tell bigger lies than communist Chin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083979)

That is the beauty of being an independent nation. They are able to run it how they see fit and the beauty of not being there is it doesn't impact you.

If you are so concerned with the "millions they killed" why didn't you "liberate" them similar to what happened with Iraq instead of joining forces with them against the Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers)

China is quickly becoming the new US "enemy". Can you name a period in US history where there wasn't an "Enemy" of some type (either real or imagined).
Heck, they even have the "war on drugs". Its catchy as it has the word "war" in there too.

The Cold war was perfect, no actual fighting but still a "war". Now the US needs a new target and a model based on "hacking" works well. It is "cold war part 2" against one of the remaining communist nations.

Haven't you seen enough of the US justice system to know the outcome already? Over time the case will fade out of the spotlight and everyone will forget about it. The US has a very high incarceration rate for petty crimes (mostly a result of the WAR on drugs) but what of the serious ones committed by the wealthy/powerful? Anyone in jail over the US financial meltdown yet?

Joe public gets caught drinking and driving - jail time. "Famous" Hollywood A-Lister, suspended sentence.

Re: This just proves Snowden is working for red Ch (0)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#44083833)

No it exposes the fact the NSA is endangering us all by escalating an unauthorized war.

Re:This just proves Snowden is working for red Chi (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083835)

And, of course,only US interests are valid. Exposing wrongdoing is of no value when the wrongdoing is directed against dirty foreigners.

Re:This just proves Snowden is working for red Chi (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#44084085)

exposing hacking of a Chinese university serves no US interests whatsoever

I don't agree I think it serves this interest of every citizen, who wants their vote to count, who expects to have representation in our representative democracy. During the cold war, if you had asked a military commander or the President, "Do we conduct espionage and or spying operations against the Soviet Union" they wouldn't have gone into detail but they would have answered that we do.

We were able to have a sane public debate about our policy position toward the USSR.

What have today is all this secret crap. If prior to last week you'd ask "Do we conduct espionage and or spying operations against the People's Republic of China", the nearest thing to honesty you would have gotten is "I can't answer that' but most likely you'd get some propaganda about how they are a valued trade partner. This is not how a free society is supposed to work, you can't have franchise if you don't know what your representatives actually do.

Seriously if you look at the situation with any objectivity at all there is no way the NSA is on the side of "truth justice and the American way" here. Supporting what they have been doing is nothing more than a response to fear, which is sad in a place that is supposed to be the "land of the free and the home of the brave."

Cyber war (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083727)

The whole cyber war agenda makes no sense. You get hacked from a computer in Romania, so you counter-attack Romania? When its just a Russian or Chinese script kiddie that's hacked a Romanian computer? It made far more sense to move critical systems off the internet so they couldn't be hacked! But the agenda pushed was 'cyber-war' with 'cyber-counter-attacks', but 'attack' makes no sense if you don't know how the underlying attacker is and the attack doesn't fix the problem in the first place!

Now the 'cyber-war' agenda makes perfect sense. The cyber war agenda is just cover for cyber-attacks. The cyber attacks are not aimed at hackers, they're aimed at databases. It's all about seizing data.

Re:Cyber war (3, Interesting)

Luckyo (1726890) | about a year ago | (#44083741)

You almost make it sound like US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq didn't make sense. They got attacked by guys from Saudi-Arabia, not afghans or iraqis.

Re:Cyber war (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about a year ago | (#44083789)

You almost make it sound like US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq didn't make sense.

Did they actually make sense?

Re:Cyber war (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083805)

Where's the mod for '-1 Whoosh'

Re:Cyber war (2)

Cenan (1892902) | about a year ago | (#44083961)

To be fair, Afghanistan is really, really close to Pakistan, where the "bad guy" ended up being located. Also, Iraq is really, really close to Saudi Arabia, where the "bad guy" came from. They didn't invade Poland or Kenya - points for effort at least?

Re:Cyber war (1)

Luckyo (1726890) | about a year ago | (#44083989)

Smart weapons that can hit within meters of intended target, but human error margin is in thousands of kilometers.

I suppose that gets points for being both poetic and scientific way to express reality.

Re:Cyber war (1)

chill (34294) | about a year ago | (#44084113)

Poland agreed to the advanced missile defense systems, including advanced radar stations. They get a pass.

Kenya is safe as long as our coffee prices remain low. Starbucks just announced a price increase, so they better watch their asses.

Re:Cyber war (1)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084095)

More along the lines of the NSA / CIA have been antagonizing the hell out of other countries for the last decade through the internet (we're talking about going well above the spying stuff....we'll say they've done some stuff that is just plain mean), then, when the other countries figure out where the majority of these attacks are coming from (surprise), they run and tell the Pentagon ("OMFG, Armageddon is coming this way. No, we don't know why. But you might want to put together a cyber-army or something quick"), then report then need for a cyber-army to the Press, looking like fortune-tellers when the attacks seem to materialize out of thin air. Reminds me of a 7-year old that beats a hornet's nest with a stick, then comes running / screaming past you as a cloud appears on the horizon.

I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (0, Troll)

Bruce66423 (1678196) | about a year ago | (#44083783)

When he was revealing actions by the US government that were clearly unconstitutional - at least on any reasonable reading of the constitution - then he could legitimately claim the status of whistleblower. But to reveal the intelligence gathering activities of your own government that are aimed at those who are clearly your enemies is an act of treachery. Which is a disaster, because it reduce the odds of the criminal actions of the Bush/Obama government being challenged, let alone punished.

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (5, Insightful)

purnima (243606) | about a year ago | (#44083813)

When did China become an enemy of the US? As far as I know it's a competitor, it is a steadily growing economic giant. Yes, but hardly an enemy. Unless, of course, we're back to 1972 when everyone not in the English speaking world that is not a CIA run dictator is an enemy. Frankly, the US is too small and becoming too irrelevant to safely classify the large chunk of humanity called China as an enemy.

It's a potential enemy, happy now? (1, Insightful)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083899)

It competes by illegally copying other's designs, and keep the wages of their worker really low, the only thing growing in China is their military and pockets of top party leaders.

Re:It's a potential enemy, happy now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44084015)

It competes by illegally copying other's designs, and keep the wages of their worker really low, the only thing growing in USA is their military and pockets of top party leaders.

FTFY

Re:It's a potential enemy, happy now? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44084043)

First, you are aware the US spends significantly more on military spending then any other nation right? IN fact they spend more then most of the world combined.
If US military spending is good why is Chinese military spending bad?

Next, are you aware of the US' long history of copying others designs and keeping wages low (you think the industrial revolution was from US know how and not piracy?)

You could always try and reverse the whole "offshoring" of your manufacturing base to them. I guess then the US corps wouldn't be able to import items for $0.04 and sell them to the american people for $10.

Lastly, you say the top leaders are growing. Do you have any facts/citations or is this just conjecture?

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (1, Insightful)

ljhiller (40044) | about a year ago | (#44083985)

China became the enemy of the United States in 1949. Don't you have Wikipedia where you live? Or books?

Oh, you mean NOW. How about a Chinese general advocating a nuclear first strike policy against the United States in 2005? This is not a friendly nation. This is an expansionist, dare I say, imperialist, nation, that expects to go to (nuclear, see above) war over Taiwan, disputes territorial claims (violently) with almost all of its neighbors, including the ridiculously large south china sea "exclusive economic zone", using cheap currency to buy influence and soft-power through-out oil-rich Africa, supporting violet Maoist rebel movements in Asia, basically, acting like post-war US and doing everything the US was so heatedly condemned for.

Frankly, the US is too small and becoming too irrelevant to safely classify the large chunk of humanity called China as an enemy.

So, what you're saying is, they are a dangerous enemy. Okay.

1972 called (4, Interesting)

purnima (243606) | about a year ago | (#44083997)

"This was the week that changed the world, as what we have said in that Communique is not nearly as important as what we will do in the years ahead to build a bridge across 16,000 miles and 22 years of hostilities which have divided us in the past. And what we have said today is that we shall build that bridge" I think that other corrupt president of the USA said that. Tricky Dick Nixon,

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (1)

DKlineburg (1074921) | about a year ago | (#44084001)

I still hear people tell me English is the most widely spoken language. Anyone feel free to direct me to source stating so. Anyone else feel free to point to source siting Chinese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers [wikipedia.org]

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (2)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about a year ago | (#44084051)

When did China become an enemy of the US?

Quite the opposite, Congress granted China "Most Favored Nation" trading status in 1997.

It's only the war mongers who call China an enemy. They like to speak of boogeymen who may come in the night, to scare little children-like citizens into behaving for their benefit.

And you think that means they don't get spied on? (4, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | about a year ago | (#44084099)

Spying on foreign nations is the NSA's business. If you don't like that, then it is something to take up with your representitive, but I would have to ask why all of a sudden you have a problem with it, since that has ALWAYS been its business. The NSA is the US's signals intelligence agency. It's reason to be is to spy on the electronic communications of foreign powers.

Now, you can argue the US shouldn't spy at all if you like, but you do have to realise that would put the US at basically the only major nation that didn't. More or less all nations have intelligence agencies. The UK has the SIS (and the Security Service to an extent), France has the DGSE, Canada has the CSIS, Switzerland has the NDB, Finland has the SUPO, China has the MSS, Russia has the SVR (and realistically the FSB, FSO and GRU as well). Nations spy on each other. They have for a long, LONG time.

The flap with the NSA is that they have been spying on American citizens. That is something they are not supposed to do. While some countries, like China, have a unified intelligence apparatus (the MSS is their spy agency, secret police, all that jazz), the US purposely has divided agencies. The NSA, CIA, etc are not supposed to collect intelligence on Americans. That is only supposed to be done by law enforcement, and then only in compliance with court orders.

That the NSA would spy on other nations is not only unsurprising, it is the reason they exist.

In terms of China being an enemy, well you can't really think in those terms. Nations don't have friends and enemies so much as they have interests. As such other nations can align or not align with those interests to different degrees. If you mean an enemy as a nation they are at war with then no, but of course they US hasn't officially gone to war in a rather long time. However China is certainly a nation the US would have many reasons to watch. They are quite authoritarian, the military is heavily mixed up in their economy (I'm talking direct ownership of things), they have imperialistic ambitions and they have a lot of weapons. Thus it should not be surprising if the US has interest in watching them.

Also if you think the US is irrelevant, you need to wake up and have a look at world affairs. The US is an extremely influential country in a tremendous amount of ways. It is the only military superpower at the moment, it controls the world's reserve currency, it has the largest economy in the world, it exports culture (in the form of books, TV movies, video games, that kind of thing) like no other in history and so on. You might wish the US was not relevant, but it is, very much so.

Also it isn't small. Buy a globe. Or use a search engine. The US is the 4th largest country in the world by land area, and 3rd largest by population. If that is "too small" by your metric, then I don't want to know what you rank most countries (which are, by definition, much smaller).

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year ago | (#44084135)

Snowden's crime is sharing information with everyone.

Snowden has been referred to by such luminaries as Dianne Feinstein, who can't keep her finger off the trigger of a rifle in court, as a traitor for doing this.

Everyone is the enemy of the US government. Some of you don't know it yet. Some of you may even think that it's your friend because you work for it, or pay your taxes on time. But they have let us know otherwise. Don't ignore it.

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083821)

Two words:' Fuck' and 'You!'

F*ck off, PLA propoganda officer (0)

Su27K (652607) | about a year ago | (#44083903)

Go F*ck yourself, there will be a day when Chinese people will hung you outside Tiananman square.

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (0)

Demonoid-Penguin (1669014) | about a year ago | (#44083933)

Two words:' Fuck' and 'You!'

Dear Dick, and other, like minded North Americans. Back at you - with interest. Sooner or later. Yours sincerely, the rest of the world (your allies for the time being).

We're not at war with China (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083843)

Freedom fries soundbites aside.

1) We're not at war with China
2) The claim that China is hacking critical infrastructure that could kill people makes no sense. Critical infrastructure should NOT be on the net at all, let alone on a net connected to China. So NSA likely lying.
3) If America is hacking China, and hacking can kill people, then NSA hacking can kill Chinese people.
4) So either the 'kill' claim is false, or NSA has declared war on China.
5) How is hacking the Chinese SMS databases some sort of counter attack against Chinese hackers?
6) See point 1.

"Which is a disaster, because it reduce the odds of the criminal actions of the Bush/Obama government being challenged, let alone punished."
If the government was behind General Alexanders NSA actions, then he would have to lie to them in Congress. Obama has hired an anti-surveillance FBI head, which suggests he's been lied to aswell. So the chances of getting the lying toerags prosecuted is as high as it always is.

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083863)

If the US can moan and cry over Chinese state-sanctioned (and likely state-run) hacing of US companies and interests, then for the US to be at the same time doing exactly the same thing smacks of double standard, and certainly a heavy dose of hubris.

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year ago | (#44083873)

so who are you in war with?
your own citizens are now the enemy?

anyhow, it's illegal for the president to wage a secret war as well. because decision to go to war is not just up to him. that's why you have abstract "wars" against abstract things like "drugs" and "evil people" - and then you have "military interventions" when you're waging an actual war.

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083949)

Following your reasoning, if you own a cell phone, you're also a traitor, since you're helping chinese (the "enemy" country) economy.

Of course NSA can and should, by its mandate, spy on foreign countries, like intel agencies do around the world do. And, granted, they spy both friends and enemies. But calling your biggest economic partner as an enemy is uter nonsense.

Re:I was entirely sympathetic to Snowden (1)

jovius (974690) | about a year ago | (#44083987)

Wars (and threats) only exist as long as there's enough people who believe in enemies. Sometimes it only takes a few to install the images in the minds of millions.

When the facades come down it's obvious that everybody does everything, and the useful illusions are no longer valid as a control mechanism. It's therefore paramount to control the information, and the ultimate construction to achieve that is basically a totalitarian state.

To enable the p2p control and loyality to the leader and the state measures have already been taken - Insider Threat Program [mcclatchydc.com] for example.

The changes are slowly creeping in. The problem is that an individual is impossible to control in the end, so the measures are also tightened to infinity.

Nice one, nobody found the sarcasm use more tags! (1)

burni2 (1643061) | about a year ago | (#44084019)

Ok, why is this comment sarcastic and contradicts the expressed meaning with an underlying meaning

For those that need explanation:

1.) he is a saint and needs to be protected, because he reveals efforts against "his own" countrymen
2.) then he is a traitor because he reveals efforts against "other countries" involved
3.) the turning part: the current and former ruler of the country to be criminals that should be prosecuted
4.) the irony one of those supposed criminal rulers is prosecuting the saint-traitor-disaster (a criminal prosecutes a criminal)

An illegal war? (5, Interesting)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#44083809)

Our own military brass has spoken publicly about how state sponsored hacking might constitute an act of war and could result in a Kenetic response. In that context the NSA has endangered our nation by potentially starting an unauthorized war with China. When will these dangerous criminals be controlled.

Re:An illegal war? (1)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44084119)

Obviously we need to introduce them to the South Korean Air Force, and send them a few thousand copies of StarCraft. That should keep them occupied for some time.

If they somehow manage to beat them, repeatedly, then we can introduce them to Wikipedia Wars, and let them try to take back Project Gundam from the Japanese Ministry of Agriculture.

nsa prosecuted (3, Informative)

geekymachoman (1261484) | about a year ago | (#44083811)

The real question is - will the US Gov be prosecuted for their crimes ? At least these ones this guy Snowden made public. We can talk about thousands of other crimes against humanity and life later.

Nobody is talking about that.. why ? What the hell is wrong with you people ?

The 1970's is long gone (3, Insightful)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about a year ago | (#44083919)

The real question is - will the US Gov be prosecuted for their crimes ? At least these ones this guy Snowden made public

Buddy, the 1970's is long gone

The United States of America is no longer the United States of America of yesteryears

Our journalists no longer have the professional zeal as their peers back in the 70's

Our congress is filled with scoundrels that are as bad as the scoundrels in the White House

And most importantly, our judiciary system can no longer be as unbiased as before --- no judge would dare to rule against the man in the White House, no matter who he or she turns out to be

And our court system is no longer unb

What were they trying to do (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083907)

get /phppath ? WootWoot?

Is Snowballs gay? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44083965)

is this guy gay?

whenever i see clips of him in the media it looks like he's wearing lipstick, go watch them and tell me. he kinda looks more like a corpse to me after being embalmed. a gay corpse.

Bet the Whitehouse will reject the petition? (4, Interesting)

srijon (1091345) | about a year ago | (#44084079)

From petitions.whitehouse.gov: "In a few rare cases (such as specific procurement, law enforcement, or adjudicatory matters), the White House response might not address the facts of a particular matter to avoid exercising improper influence."

This allows Obama to simply say "We cannot comment on the Snowden petition, since he is subject to an ongoing legal enquiry, and we must avoid exercising improper influence."

Meanwhile, several members of government have already declared Snowden guilty of treason without trial - no improper exercise of influence there, right?

Anyone with thoughts about how the petition might have been worded to avoid this loophole?

Didn't Obama say something about such acts? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44084123)

Oh yeah, cyber attack = attack = retaliation with force is justified.

So, when will the rest of the world accept America's declaration of war and defend itself?

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