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Immigration Bill Passes the Senate, Includes More H-1B Visas

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the no-word-on-more-h-1b-mastercards dept.

Businesses 274

An anonymous reader writes "While the landmark immigration bill (full text PDF), which recently passed the U.S. Senate, is being hailed as bringing crucial reforms that will vastly improve the state of immigration in this country, there is a provision in it that is seeing relatively little discussion: section 4101, a 'market-based' increase in the amount of H-1B visas for skilled workers. 'The pitched arguments of both sides, which are likely to resurface in the House when it takes up its version of an immigration overhaul, cloud a complicated reality. There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole. If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.'"

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There are three kinds of lies. (1, Redundant)

Kaenneth (82978) | about a year ago | (#44136403)

Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (5, Interesting)

hedwards (940851) | about a year ago | (#44136487)

Precisely, I'm curious as to how they explain all the people that give up on the IT sector because they can't get a job due to the ridiculously narrow job requirements that even entry level positions have.

I'd be fine with a lift on the H-1B visa limits if it required them to actually demonstrate that they had made real efforts to hire Americans first. And that the requirements they were posting were reasonable for the job they were hiring for.

As it is, the job requirements seem more there to show that they're "trying" to hire Americans while ensuring that as few Americans as possible are actually qualified for the job.

Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffing f (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year ago | (#44136527)

Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffing firms that seem to only do keywords or say take down a list of things that IT does even if it's a one off or just helping out and put it on the need 5 years list.

Re:Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffin (1)

Kaenneth (82978) | about a year ago | (#44136813)

Like the HR person after confirming more than five years of experience with C# asking if I have any .net experience...

Re:Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffin (1)

Shados (741919) | about a year ago | (#44137433)

At least they didn't ask you for 10 years of hands on .NET experience in 2005....

Re:Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffin (5, Insightful)

Ryanrule (1657199) | about a year ago | (#44136947)

people that companies REALLY want to hire talk to the group who needs the help, THEN they get sent to HR for a nice rubber stamp. HR is for the cattle.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (0)

Trailer Trash (60756) | about a year ago | (#44136531)

Precisely, I'm curious as to how they explain all the people that give up on the IT sector because they can't get a job due to the ridiculously narrow job requirements that even entry level positions have.

Well, they'll give up and go work in a grocery store or something. At that point, it will no longer affect them.

ban some stuff like (0)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year ago | (#44136609)

need any degree
degree that is only called that that way at 1 or 2 schools
need very off topic stuff / skills

as an starting point.

Re:ban some stuff like (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136665)

How's that BA in English working out for you?

That's right! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136897)

How's that BA in English working out for you?

You tell 'em!

There's only 3 degrees universities should offer:

1.Engineering - ONLY Electrical, chemical and petroleum.

2. Computer science.

3. Nursing.

And there's only 3 universities worth going to: Harvard, Yale and MIT. Everyone else should just close down.

Other than that, college is just a waste of time and money.

We need a society of technologists and people to clean the bedpans of the old people.

For all the stupid people who couldn't get into those programs, well, there's always Walmart. And if you speak Spanish, McDonalds.

The World needs ditch diggers too, ya know!

IT needs apprenticeships / trades schools as CS (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year ago | (#44137041)

CS is not IT and going to school for Computer science will give you skill gaps.

It has lot's of hands on stuff that is a good fit for an apprenticeships.

OK, man, You got me ranting! (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137177)

CS is not IT and going to school for Computer science will give you skill gaps.

It has lot's of hands on stuff that is a good fit for an apprenticeships.

Ok, I posed the GP and it was meant to be satire.

You're right, Actually, back in the old days, college WASN'T for career training. It was for an education to better and refine oneself.

Engineer? You apprenticed or went to a TRADE school because engineering is a trade.

So is medicine.

Law? Read about the founding fathers. If they went to college, they would get some liberal arts degree and then apprentice with a lawyer and "read law" - no law school. See. Bio of John Q. Adams.

CS? I'm on the fence on that one. On one hand it's a branch of math on the other, let's face it, it's almost an engineering discipline - apprenticeship career.

Business school? Please! Apprentice.

And also, our colleges and universities have become High School prt 2.
Freshman English?! WTF is that? That shit should have been taught in high school! Same for Bio, Chem, Physics I&II.

It's a symptom of how our schools have failed and how corporate America has turned our education system into one big trade school to benefit them at tax payer's cost.

Re:OK, man, You got me ranting! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137567)

Here's how they (businesses and government) can solve everything and everyone would be more or less happy:
1. All jobs must be apprenticeship style, eg you must learn on the job
  via going to a school to support that job.

  So to enter that job you must either go to the supporting school, as stated by that job. Pass all the exams/experience tests, and then you get to entry level on that job.
2. H1B/Foreigners can do the same. In their home country they must apply, at their own cost, to go to that school.
3. The number of positions at the school must directly correspond to the employers supporting them.

So the end result is the the H1B process is passed to the schools, and if there is a LACK OF AMERICANS applying for the program, they are free to let in as many H1B's as the employer states they will take.

Now what about retraining? Yes Americans who have older versions of the skills can simply go back and take the exams, and automatically qualify, as long as it's taken at the school for which that job is supported by. No tuition costs apply if only the exam is taken.

What about new companies? That's solved too, they can support whatever existing program from another employer (eg Microsoft certification is an example) exists that also applies to them, but bump up the urgency to "exam passed by (date)"

Re:ban some stuff like (1)

kilfarsnar (561956) | about a year ago | (#44137575)

I have a BA in Psychology and my Sys Admin career is going fine so far.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (5, Insightful)

TWiTfan (2887093) | about a year ago | (#44136673)

The ridiculously narrow job requirements are specifically designed so they *don't* find Americans to fill their jobs. They want an excuse to hire H1-B indentured servants, and to go to Congress claiming that there are no Americans to fill them.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (1, Interesting)

goruka (1721094) | about a year ago | (#44137293)

You should look at it from the other side, It's not a matter of not finding americans to fill their jobs, it's a matter that Americans easily become too costly to fill the jobs, and a cheaper alternative is requiered for business to happen.

I have friends who worked on H1Bs at plenty of Silicon Valley companies, where a lot of the workforce were not Americans. Their salaries were not that of slave workforce at all, but still allowed the companies to reduce cost a lot in their intial stages, then they grew and hired more Americans.

Americans have to understand that they are easily becoming too costly, with unheard of salaries anywhere else in the world, you are choking your own business, which would rather outsource or hire H1Bs than hiring you.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (4, Insightful)

frinsore (153020) | about a year ago | (#44137071)

My issues with the H-1B visa program is that it doesn't fix any of the problems that it tries to address and probably creates new issues.

The basic problem H-1B visa tries to address: "There are not enough mediocre engineers for our current business needs." The H-1B visa brings in some temporary employees to fix the short term shortage. But when the visa expires they go home and the company has to hire a new H-1B employee to replace him (remember there is a shortage of qualified applicants) and probably has increased their need of mediocre engineers during the past few years. There is no incentive for the company to fix the problem but instead to just apply the H-1B bandaid to it.

If the company hiring a H-1B visa holder was forced to train workers that would take over the position then the H-1B visa program would probably be rarely used and only when there was an actual need. Or if the company could only use H-1B visa employees/contractors every 2 years out of 5 so that they knew that they were ineligible for the H-1B bandaid when the current employees leave. Or even make the visa permanent, the visa holder isn't forced to leave the country and is free to find other employers whenever they wish; broader immigration issues this would fix the short term problem by just importing more people.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (5, Insightful)

hairyfeet (841228) | about a year ago | (#44137175)

Watch How not to hire an American [youtube.com] to see how the whole H1-B system has become a scam, they rig the requirements of the job so its impossible for ANY American to meet the requirement (such as demanding 10 years exp on a tech that has only been around 5 years) so that they can hire more indentured servants through H1-B.

For those that beat the globalization drum all you are doing is killing our future, these guys will go back to their own countries and come up with the next new things while we will be left a husk. in my own area the local college is getting ready to pull the plug on their entire IT program, why? Because students have found they can't compete with a guy that paid less than we pay for a new car for a master's degree so are no longer even attempting to go into tech fields, they know it will just leave them buried in debt in a dead end job.

I wish i could take all those that constant scream "free trade" and "free markets" and drag their sorry asses through middle America to see the seeds they have sown, where there is more boarded up businesses than open ones and the business districts look like Escape From New York thanks to all the abandoned factories. there is NO SUCH THING as free trade, all you are doing is exporting misery and pollution, and all you are importing is more indentured servants.

They won't stop until the highest paid IT jobs are less than the manager at a Mickey D's, and when the day comes that countries stop taking our overprinted money they will all leave and we'll be left with another dead sector. Of course it won't phase them as they'll just move, as Thomas Jefferson wisely pointed out :"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (1)

Synerg1y (2169962) | about a year ago | (#44137341)

A system with too many H1-B's will implode onto itself when communication becomes unmanageable. Same thing as outsourcing being brought back on shore after a massive exodus and a plethora of unmanageable code.

Want job security? Support that code, the $5 an hour savings translate into a $40-$50 support person later.

Also, managing Mickey D's sounds pretty easy... if it paid more... hmmm.

No it won't (2, Informative)

rsilvergun (571051) | about a year ago | (#44137521)

That's not what happens. It's just wishful thinking. Outsourcing isn't being brought back on shore because of communication problems, it's because a few of the outsourcing firms got greedy and cut corners a little too thin. They'll learn.

Plus code written by slaves is cheap. So Cheap I can throw out your old code and start from scratch and still come out ahead. The last piece to the puzzle is to remember that for the top 1% who are pushing these things through they own a piece of just about every major company. So if company A overcharges company B the 1% still make gobs of money.

And Managing a Mickey D's is incredibly hard. First it's brutally difficult work. 50 to 60 hours a week. Next, you're constantly jockeying to keep your employees because you don't pay them enough to have anything near a stable lifestyle (and no, they're not all kids. That workforce is graying too).

Basically, the world doesn't work the way you think it does. I'd be OK if you were only hurting yourself, but when you go and vote you hurt me too...

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (2, Insightful)

istartedi (132515) | about a year ago | (#44137523)

drag their sorry asses through middle America to see the seeds they have sown

It is really, Really, REALLY hard to convince the people who believe in Free Trade. They were taught the theory in school. Often they were taught it or had it reinforced in Comm school while getting an MBA. I had an argument about this with somebody taking Comm school while I was an undergrad. This was back in the 90s, when Perot was running. It was all "why should I listen to an undergrad. What do you know?" and I was like, "our grandchildren are going to hate us". It looks more like our children will hate us. I had no idea how fast it would happen.

Finally, a lot of these guys are doing well for themselves. Even if they see other people doing badly, they still buy into the "they're just not working hard enough and smart enough" meme. It's waaaay too easy to believe something when you're paid to believe it. The people who are doing well are often paid to believe in Free Trade.

Finally, the middle class can indeed get a temporary boost from Free Trade. It's the macro economic version of selling your house and using the money to take trips and throw parties. We sell our production capability, the middle class gets $20 microwaves at Wal Mart for a few years, while ignoring the relatively small number of people who used to work at the microwave factory. Then, we cut another trade deal.

Eventually we run out of new trade deals to cut, just as you run out of possessions to sell. Then the party is over.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137233)

When the stupid party and the evil party "reach across the aisle" they're usually trying to get to your wallet.

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (1)

Synerg1y (2169962) | about a year ago | (#44137453)

"trying" to hire Americans sounds unenforceable, thus it got removed.

Here's my view on the disconnect in skills though... we're trying to hire an ERP person, we had a home grown person who's gone. We've been unable to do so... why? ERP systems are popular and common at large organizations, but who thinks of listing ERP on their resume? SAP sure, ERP no. There is so much crap floating around that after a job I've gone back to my notes to figure out all the little things I've done that can land me somewhere else (who would've thought sitefinity would be one).

So, people are qualified, they don't know it, and the org doesn't know it... nor do I know how to fix it, just an observation.

There are law firms (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | about a year ago | (#44137473)

that exist for the sole purpose of teaching businesses how to do an end run around every rule regarding hiring H1-Bs.

Saying "I'd be fine with a lift on the H-1B visa limits if it required them to actually demonstrate that they had made real efforts to hire Americans first." is pointless. It's not just wishful thinking, its fundamentally ignoring the purpose of the system...

Re:There are three kinds of lies. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136787)

There are 3 kinds of liers, HR, Congress and corporate heads. Since Congress doesn't do shit we could cut budget by out sourcing them and use the money to do something useful.

Yep... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136455)

im sure all the transgendered albinos are happy with this decision.

And there is a lot of empirical evidence that... (-1, Redundant)

Macchendra (2919537) | about a year ago | (#44136481)

...a lack of pirates causes global warming.

H-1B have much lower school cost (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136497)

and they are not loaded down student loands

Re:H-1B have much lower school cost (3, Insightful)

Tailhook (98486) | about a year ago | (#44137095)

and they are not loaded down student loands

And therefore what? Shun foreigners to help perpetuate wildly excessive [wikimedia.org] education cost growth? Or ...and here comes a new thought... change domestic education to stop the relentless growth of costs.

We flail about trying to pin the costs of healthcare and education on each other while the costs of these products annually balloon to record breaking levels. Educated people somehow elide any thought about why the costs of these things compound themselves while honing ever more hate filled arguments about who is supposed to pay to a fine point.

That relentless growth (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | about a year ago | (#44137533)

is because we started letting private businesses run schools for profit. You want to curb that? Turn them back into real public institutions instead of quasi-private ones where the costs are paid by you and me and the profits go to 1%.

Oh Sure. More Supply == More Demand (4, Insightful)

helixcode123 (514493) | about a year ago | (#44136515)

> If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers

Of course. Isn't that a basic law of economic theory? As the supply of labor increases so do salaries.

I have some doubts.

Re:Oh Sure. More Supply == More Demand (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | about a year ago | (#44136835)

Of course salaries increase when immigration increase - in their countries of origin...

Re:Oh Sure. More Supply == More Demand (3, Interesting)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about a year ago | (#44137323)

"If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers"

Not only do I find that claim dubious, it's completely beside the point. At least one recent study discussed here on Slashdot, possibly more, said THEIR IS NO SHORTAGE of qualified technical workers in the United States. Some corporations just want more H1-Bs because they're cheaper.

Bullshit. (-1, Offtopic)

killfixx (148785) | about a year ago | (#44136519)

That's the nut of it... I call bullshit.

WHAT?!?!?! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136539)

The increase of H1B visa has absolutely.... affected pay rates. Which in itself....affects jobs.
Why pay an American ENG more than what you will pay a H1B visa?
It's all about profits and does affect american jobs. Salary surveys should prove that point, given the fact we are getting paid less to do more....
What is different now...versus 5 years ago...more h1B visas every year...the same skills are still required....you're just worth less in america and there is also inflation.

All the politicians have vested interests in increasing the H1B visa's....they get more $$$ in profits/kickback....while existing american's lose opportunities...and jobs to feed their family with.

How can increasing the amount of immigrant workers ACTUALLY solve the job crisis with AMERICANS?
Increasing the immigrant workers....only allows companies to pay them less...and lay existing older employee off...who currently make more the h1B visas

Re:WHAT?!?!?! (2)

pr0fessor (1940368) | about a year ago | (#44136751)

I used to tell people computers, tech, programing were the way to go when they told me they were starting college now if they ask I tell them to find something that can't be outsourced.

Re:WHAT?!?!?! (2)

Culture20 (968837) | about a year ago | (#44136825)

Plumbing. Except they can always bring in cheaper plumbers on H-1B Visas and name them sanitation engineers.

Re:WHAT?!?!?! (1)

pr0fessor (1940368) | about a year ago | (#44137067)

My father did plumbing/heating and air conditioning and made good money but I went into computers because he told me every day "Don't be like me, work smarter not harder".

Re:WHAT?!?!?! (1)

zlives (2009072) | about a year ago | (#44137443)

i wonder if there is a degree to get unemployment benefits. you won't get a job after graduating might as well use the tax dollars the h1b will generate to sit on your ass and get unemployment. /facetious

Re:WHAT?!?!?! (1)

hedwards (940851) | about a year ago | (#44136869)

Actually, they are required to pay the H-1B visa holders the prevailing wages, the real advantage is that they don't have to give them raises or as many perks to get them into the job. And can use those workers to then hold back the prevailing wage, since they're unlikely to demand a raise, even if they would normally have earned a raise for their work.

Re:WHAT?!?!?! (5, Insightful)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44137157)

Actually, they are required to pay the H-1B visa holders the prevailing wages

Laws are meaningless if they're not enforced, and that one isn't.

HAH (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136551)

There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.

Written by someone that obviously has never worked in the tech industry.

Fact: H1-Bs are abused to artificially suppress wages in sponsoring countries. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a program to help immigration, but the way it has been implemented, enforced, and maintained is causing serious harm to the U.S. economy.

If you need citations for this, you're at least as clueless as the bought and paid for government approving expansion of this legitimized abuse.

Re:HAH (5, Insightful)

SirGarlon (845873) | about a year ago | (#44137099)

Actually, if you need citations for this, you're thinking critically. Are you suggesting we should believe every unsupported opinion by every AC on Slashdot, or just you?

Re:HAH (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44137213)

Actually, if you need citations for this, you're thinking critically.

If you don't think many citations have been posted here in the past, you're being deliberately obtuse. For starters Google "Norman Matloff" - hours of fun reading. I used to post specific links and quotes, but at this point it's ridiculous. "Prove it" is a zombie line, killed a thousand times and still coming back.

Re:HAH (5, Insightful)

Shadow99_1 (86250) | about a year ago | (#44137237)

Slashdot alone has been collecting anecdotal evidence for... 15 years now...? I think it's been 15 anyways...

There have also been videos of presentations by firms who work in this area that teach companies how not to hire americans (You can google that). If their really was no advantage to hiring H1-B over a US worker, then why would companies go out of their way to disqualify US workers...?

I think they real factor in "recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers" is that the few who do get in as US workers are the top of the crop and the rest simply are left to pick there way through other fields after getting their expensive degrees.

Re:HAH (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137507)

News for Nerds: Denial is Insightful!

If you need citations for this (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | about a year ago | (#44137561)

you're too lazy to google. [google.com]

Re:HAH (1)

d34thm0nk3y (653414) | about a year ago | (#44137291)

The summary alleges that there is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.

Perhaps if you wish to argue agains that statement you could provide some empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.

Re:HAH (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137355)

"There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole." Can I cite myself? Rather than hire Americans, my prior Fortune-100 company brought in IBM-oid subcontractors from India. Obvious to everyone with a pulse they were indentured servants who would get their H1-B's yanked if they wanted first world working conditions. Anyone worked with Tata? "Little empirical evidence" statement is absurd.

Here are the rules (0, Troll)

The Cat (19816) | about a year ago | (#44136579)

There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.

This is blatant propaganda.

If you use the word "empirical" in a sentence for no reason, or start a sentence with "actually" you are a dickbag.

Thank you.

what a load of crap (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136601)

no apparent impact on older workers, as I've been out of a job for over 8 months. somebody needs to get punched in the mouth.

Discrimination... (1, Offtopic)

Rockoon (1252108) | about a year ago | (#44136623)

Did the Senate pass another bill that would discriminate against specific countries where many people desperately want to come from, particularly Mexico and China?

The "Diversity Visa Program" passed in 1990 does exactly that, as it forbids people from particular countries from qualifying for 50000 Visa's annually.

..of course when the GOP tried to end this program, the Democrats called the Republicans trying to end it racists. [thehill.com]

Notice how nobody turned around and called the Democrats racist for supporting the obviously racist program.. but hey.. its got "diversity" in the name.. and diversity is good, even if you have to discriminate based on shit like skin color.

Re:Discrimination... (1)

geekoid (135745) | about a year ago | (#44136667)

IT's not racist by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Stop forcing things to fit into you narrow, preconceived, notions.

Re:Discrimination... (0)

Rockoon (1252108) | about a year ago | (#44136723)

IT's not racist by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.

The U.S. government runs a lottery that gives out an additional 50,000 VISA's per year beyond the level playing field of normal immigration, but people from Mexico arent allowed to win any of them, and you are there claiming its not racist by any stretch of the imagination?

Really?

What fucking distortion field do you live in?

Re:Discrimination... (4, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#44136797)

I don't think Mexico has only people of one race in it. I am pretty sure there are Mexican citizens of many races.

I oppose that program as well, but I am not sure it is racist. I think those who implemented it were trying to be racist, but were too racist to know that Mexico has other races.

Sorry, but you're wrong about discrimination. (3, Informative)

tlambert (566799) | about a year ago | (#44137103)

The U.S. government runs a lottery that gives out an additional 50,000 VISA's per year beyond the level playing field of normal immigration, but people from Mexico arent allowed to win any of them, and you are there claiming its not racist by any stretch of the imagination?

Really?

What fucking distortion field do you live in?

He's probably living in the distortion field perpetuated by both the CIA World Fact Book and Wikipedia, in which it is well known that Mexico isn't comprised of a single race any more than Los Angeles is comprised of a single race, thus making it impossible to discriminate against a particular, single race by discriminating against all of Mexico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_people#Today [wikipedia.org]

Or maybe it was the one where, under NAFTA, there's already an economic agreement in place for non-professional workers, and professional workers get TN-1 visa rather than H-1B visa?

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1274.html [state.gov]

You know what? Those TN-1 visas discriminate against Europeans, who are require to return to their own countries after a period of time, whereas a TN-1 can be renewed again and again, indefinitely, without ever actually leaving the US. Those bastards! Favoring Mexico and Canada over Germany and New Zealand!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status [wikipedia.org]

Re:Discrimination... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137183)

We have enough Mexicans.

Re:Discrimination... (1)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | about a year ago | (#44136847)

It's not 'racist' to try and diversify your immigration policy. If 90% of your immigrants are from one or two countries it's not racist to put a cap on any one country's applications in order to give others a chance as well.

"Racist" would be negatively discriminating against a race. Mexico and China aren't being discriminated against in the slightest, if anything they are getting preferential treatment. In exchange for the status quo which is preferential, they save a few spots for everyone else.

Re:Discrimination... (0)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about a year ago | (#44136925)

"Positive discrimination" is just regular discrimination by another name, when you reverse the labels on who is discriminated against and who is not to present it as palatable.

Re:Discrimination... (1)

Rockoon (1252108) | about a year ago | (#44137147)

Mexico and China aren't being discriminated against in the slightest, if anything they are getting preferential treatment.

What preferential treatment is that?

Surely you dont mean how these same people are also limited by the 7% cap?

When did treating each personal equally start being called preferential treatment?

have an H-1B min wage and or open job swtiching (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year ago | (#44136663)

have an H-1B min wage and or open job switching aka the (worker owns the H-1B).

The min wage can be like 50k+ forced overtime pay maybe at the 100k+ level no forced OT pay.

Some H-1B are abused with low pay and or lots of foreced OT.

Re:have an H-1B min wage and or open job swtiching (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#44136831)

I agree if you double or triple those numbers.

For type H1B tech jobs $50k is basically a pittance.

Re:have an H-1B min wage and or open job swtiching (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a year ago | (#44137011)

Well at least 50K + ot is an min and under that it opens room for US workers to have a good starting wage.

Re:have an H-1B min wage and or open job swtiching (2)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#44137047)

Depends on the job. It might quickly mean lots of jobs now only pay $50k when they used to pay more.

Simply make them pay some multiple of the current labor board numbers for that job avoid this. Index it to inflation and compare 5 years down the road. Any slip in wage would mean reducing the number of H1Bs.

High Unemployment Levels? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136671)

Well I, for one, am glad that the Senate has finally agreed on a solution to our immigration problem and that it includes more skilled foreign labor. We really need people to fill all of these available jobs!

Since that's taken care of, maybe they can focus on fixing the economy, and creating jobs for all of the unemployed?

Re:High Unemployment Levels? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136695)

... more skilled foreign labor...huh? I thought this was AMERICA.....where are all the american jobs? Given to India?...or other immigrants?

Shortage? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136747)

Ah, if there's a shortage of skilled workers requiring an increase in H-1Bs, we must be seeing huge increases in salaries to fill all the openings.

Re:Shortage? (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44136841)

Ah, if there's a shortage of skilled workers requiring an increase in H-1Bs, we must be seeing huge increases in salaries to fill all the openings.

Shhh, economic principles should only be applied when they benefit the top 0.01%. In all other cases they may be ignored.

Evidence cuts both ways (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about a year ago | (#44136757)

There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole

There is no evidence that there is a general "shortage" of tech workers either. Sure, there are spot shortages, but those are necessary to give the flooded niches room to move. If you plug the spot shortages with "guest" workers, then citizens in flooded niches can't get them.

No Worries (0)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about a year ago | (#44136761)

Boner, er, I mean Boehner has already declared that he won't introduce the bill in the House.

Combine that with the 33 seat advantage that Repubs have... not gonna happen.

Re:No Worries (4, Insightful)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44136819)

You mean there's an opposition party? Wow. Normally I side more with the D's than the R's (not that I have much faith in either), but this time I'm damn glad there's an R majority in the House.

Re:No Worries (1)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about a year ago | (#44137189)

You mean there's an opposition party

When it comes to 'hot-button' issues like immigration and gun control, yes.

I know, I find it surprising as well.

Care to mention which study? (5, Insightful)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44136775)

There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.

Apparently the author is unfamiliar with Internet search engines and/or the name Norman Matloff. You'll find plenty of empirical evidence.

If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.

Would the author care to mention the name of the study, who it was performed by, or even (*gasp*) provide a link? Otherwise a reference to "one recent study" has no credibility whatsoever.

If you're going to shove a line of bull at people, at least have the respect to make it seem a little credible. Propaganda like this is just plain insulting. I'd rather have somebody be honest enough to say "Screw you, the tech billionaires won, courtesy of the propaganda they pay for and the bribes they give their sycophants in congress. If you don't like it you can eat sh*t."

Re:Care to mention which study? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136907)

"If anything, one recent study suggests"

This makes it sound like they had to dig through a lot of studies to find one that supported their belief.

Re:Care to mention which study? (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44137241)

"If anything, one recent study suggests"

This makes it sound like they had to dig through a lot of studies to find one that supported their belief.

I doubt they bother. It's so much easier to pull a study from one's posterior, or call up your favorite lobbyists paid by tech billionaires. 2+2=5? No problem. How many studies and experts do you want?

Re:Care to mention which study? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136951)

Submitters fails the "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" test.

Or even any evidence at all...

Not going to pass the House (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136777)

Sorry this is not going to pass the house. Here's why: It is voted by Republicans who hate minorities and any body who does not speak English. (Here's another fun fact I learned livng there they always try to outdo one another for example many only accept the King James version of the Bible even though none of them speak that way).

This is not going to pass the house. A shame, America is a nation built by immigrants. I guess Canada will lead the way while America devolves into a cesspool of stupid white inbreds. Idiocracy.

Re:Not going to pass the House (5, Insightful)

darury (1235658) | about a year ago | (#44136931)

The reason it shouldn't pass is it rewards those who broke the rules instead of those who actually try to follow the process. I'm not saying we shouldn't have immigration, but I don't see how rewarding someone for bad behavior won't increase the amount of it. This isn't the first time the "amnesty" idea has come up and each time I was going to address the issue of illegal immigration. And each time, it just makes it worse.

Re:Not going to pass the House (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44137031)

America is a nation built by immigrants.

If you had any understanding of what's being discussed here, you'd know that people are complaining about guest worker programs, not immigration programs.

I guess Canada will lead the way

Lead the way in what, Ph.D.'s driving cabs?

America devolves into a cesspool of stupid white inbreds

News flash: America is not a "white" country. The fastest growing "racial" group is Hispanics. Even without any immigration it won't be long before "white" people are not a majority in this country, and anybody with half a brain doesn't give a damn one way or the other.

I also find this obsession with artificial constructs like "race" to be offensive. Roll back the effects of Bacon's Rebellion. The whole concept of race was always a bunch of bull used in a divide and conquer strategy to keep the peasants from revolting. It has no other significance or meaning.

Re:Not going to pass the House (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137109)

Uh huh. You sir are a super-genius. By the way, how are all the native Canadian people treating you up there?

Do you know what party in the US pushed the civil rights act to protect minority rights? I won't tell you and spoil your day.

Oh, get yourself some Browndo, it's got electrolytes.

H-1B are a tool to keep salaries down (1)

anlashok (120734) | about a year ago | (#44136791)

There are qualified people looking for work that are ignored, because of age or length of time unemployed. There are plenty of people out in the employment pool, but this is a way to keep salaries down and not to do any spending on training. Where has all the spending for training gone? No company is willing to invest time and money into existing employees. Plenty of recruiters have told me that companies want a 20 out of 20 in their wish list.

Re:H-1B are a tool to keep salaries down (2)

Shados (741919) | about a year ago | (#44137051)

What field and what location are we talking about? Lack of willingness (or simply not being able to for various reason) to relocate is definitely the only reason a qualified IT worker would have trouble getting a job.

Even if you were out of the market for 10+ years (I had a male friend who decided to raise his daughters at home instead of the stereotypical mother doing it...and he was able to come straight back in. It took a few months to get back into the interviewing groove, but not all that long compared to people generally complaining about having a hard time getting a job).

In the big tech centers, the qualification required to get a high paying job is "being able to breath". And sometimes they'll waive that one too, or so it feels.

Even factory workers and whatsnot will generally have an easy time if they can relocate, but that's the kicker: relocating for a low paying job is rarely an option.

Thats the main issue. There's plenty of jobs. They're just not always at the right places. In the IT sector, that can be solved by pushing telecommuting more. Other sectors are harder (you may be able to do a surgery remotely with modern tech, but doing nurse work remotely is probably a lot harder...).

More H1B Directly Translates to More Unemployment (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136821)

Headline says it all.

H1B visas mean importing talent that is willing to work for rates at or below the going market rate, which is already artificially depressed do to the number of current H1B visa's in the USA today.

Putting more water in the boat is not the proper way to bail.

Slave labor (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136853)

This is about greed and slave labor. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.

And they aren't displacing Americans because no one is hiring Americans in the first fucking place.

They Took (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136875)

They took our JOOOOBBBBBBSSSSSSSS!

Back to the pile!

Call Now! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136937)

Call your congressperson, not email but phone, and tell them to junk this when it comes to the House.

hire americans first (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44136973)

any House GOP member voting for this abortion is going to get skewered

What difference does it make? (2)

bigsexyjoe (581721) | about a year ago | (#44136993)

The number of CS undergraduates closely mirrors the demand for workers. Hiring H1-Bs just reduces the number of young Americans who study CS. In the end, it doesn't really effect people already working in the field.

Re:What difference does it make? (1)

goruka (1721094) | about a year ago | (#44137383)

That is absolute bullshit, your country does enormous amounts of outsourcing, H1Bs are not even a single digit percent of the American jobs lost to outsourcing.
It is *very* clear that there aren't enough American workers to supply demand, which is why they quickly become too expensive.
H1B solves this for companies, because talented foreign workers will do their jobs for less money, but in the end that only helps a little and the rest goes to outsourcing.

Stop being stupid, H1Bs are good for the US. (-1, Troll)

goruka (1721094) | about a year ago | (#44137173)

Reality is that there is plenty of skilled people and companies everywhere around the world, and that nothing prevents investors, companies and corporations in the US to hire them instead of Americans companies, nothing prevents them to travel to the US looking for jobs (then then go back to their country with a juicy contract), and nothing prevents the money leaving the US banks to foreign banks.

I've been to plenty of business conventions in the US and most business developers were foreigners. Yes, they don't even need to be in America to steal your jobs.

So, do you want money and jobs flying away from your country, or do you want talented people settling in America, where the standard of living is higher, and help retain the jobs there?.
I can understand some people being pissed because they can be replaced by foreigners who are equally talented who don't pretend to earn as much, but the net result is that more talented people allows more business to happen in the US, and more business in the US equals to more American jobs in the long run.

This is why your government is pushing for this, so stop being paranoid.

Re:Stop being stupid, H1Bs are good for the US. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137369)

H1Bs eliminate jobs in the US.
The issue is "the US" is being lead by corporation figure heads(false or real) who are not interested in american jobs...american workers...or ANY employee/contractor/ICE rights, they are interested in profits.

Tell me how H1B visa create american jobs?

The only thing that would prevent this from NOT happening is to restrict H1B visa's...instead of increasing them.

Re:Stop being stupid, H1Bs are good for the US. (1)

goruka (1721094) | about a year ago | (#44137389)

answer: read my post again.

Companies are already taking this into account!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44137179)

Accenture, for example, announced a sharply downward revised forecast!

you know what this means right?

Lay off even more US 'employees'. WHY? because we had to lower our forecast, we are in bad shape, boo hoo....

Why worry!? H1 limit has increased, we can get their replacements from India/Philippines/ whatnot..!

So the effects are already being felt!!

Wait, what? (3, Insightful)

s.petry (762400) | about a year ago | (#44137221)

If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.'"

Those same people seem to think that NAFTA really helps American's as well, but our economy in shambles for well over a decade seems to prove them wrong. And no, I will not bend logic to suit their purposes as they do to suit themselves.

Providing lower paying jobs for non citizens while taking away jobs from US Citizens does not increase pay for US Citizens. The fact is that it reduces US jobs and harms the economy. The Henry Ford model was right and we have Detroit and Flint's economy and collapses to show he was correct. These people are just idiots, and it's too bad that so many suckers actually believe their bullspit.

Karma, it hurts. (2, Insightful)

Inka22 (2831951) | about a year ago | (#44137235)

Too bad there aren't even more (unlimited) H1-Bs.

Then all the left wing techies who are all happy and gang-ho about a bunch of low-skilled immigrants flooding USA (because they don't hurt their precious white collar jobs) would suddenly realize that Yes, People Get Hurt when you import a bunch of cheap workforce in a bad economy.

At a time when we need it most, we're sold out (3, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | about a year ago | (#44137379)

This isn't even so much about "individual" needs of individuals. This is about the health of a nation's economy. People who understand that money is more about flow than about hoarding (accumulating wealth) also understand that when people are not working and are not making enough money, they aren't spending money. This causes a reactive affect which radiates out everywhere in every direction.

Now we're opening the doors even wider to bring in more people which will put more locals out of work, raising unemployment and underemployment and those people reacting with the rest of the economy. Additionally, this brings a much larger number of people who will require social/government programs to survive.

This feels "intentional" and if feels planned. But one part isn't planned -- it's corporate greed and short-sightedness. They have no sense of responsibiity for what they are doing to the economy -- an economy in which those very businesses cannot exist for long without. That's a kind of given natural law. The real decision makers, the same ones who spend orders of magnitude more money than they collect in taxes on weapons we don't need, have decided they would rather help a small few at the expense of the nation's economy.

Meanwhile? The people who are the most affected? They're bitching about what's on "reality TV" and the news of the latest xbox. Sheeple.

It can't be stopped because not enough people are going to actually do anything about it. A person writes "shame on [the banks]" in chalk and getting charged with a crime that could end up with years in prison. We're in a real problem situation and the leadership of the country is unable to stop the train wreck that is happening all around us.

Have a nice weekend.

Green Card (4, Interesting)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | about a year ago | (#44137569)

If they still don't make it easier for people who go there LEGALLY to work to eventually get a green card (no tons of money, no company sponsorship or getting married, no years of waiting) then fuck it, it still isn't worth going there to work. I worked there for six years and moved back to Canada because it would have taken forever to get a green card and being indentured to a company for the duration. Fuck that. If they can give green cards to illegal immigrants and not those there legally, fuck them.

Most countries will give you a landed immigrant status (same as a green card) if you work there LEGALLY more than a set time (usually four or five years), keep your nose clean, and don't mooch off the government for anything. If that isn't the case, even though I get recruiters calling me from there regularly because of my good reputation in the city I worked in, I won't go back there to work ever. The odd vacation maybe but that's it. Not worth the stress of worrying about having to relocate your family out of the country within a month if the contract ends suddenly. Nor the stress of companies feeling like the fuck you because they think you are captive for the same reason. A big three letter telecom convinced me of all this because of the last statement.

bs (3, Insightful)

superwiz (655733) | about a year ago | (#44137577)

There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.

If this were true, they'd be given green cards instead H1B. With H1B, they are indentured servants. Getting fired means getting deported for them. Stop forcing Americans to compete with indentured servants in technology and then you'll see more Americans going into those fields. Even if you accept that they don't compete on salary, they still compete on work conditions.

Nothing to see here. Move along... move along... (1)

mpaque (655244) | about a year ago | (#44137579)

And in other news, the bill has been declared DOA on arrival at the House of Representatives, where the Speaker of the House has announced that they intend to do their own thing, perhaps later this year, or possibly next year where a bill can be used as fodder for the 2014 campaigns.

Meh.

Multiply by 3 (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | about a year ago | (#44137581)

That's the number of actual H1-B workers in this country. E.g. take the legal limit and multiply it by 3. We don't send them home when their Visas expire, so lots of them stay. The estimates are around 3 times the limit. 180,000 today. Once we raise the limit to 300,000 we'll have a million new tech workers hitting the economy within 3 years. Forget the tech economy, that'll depress _everyone's_ wages.
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