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FWD.us Remixes the Statue of Liberty Greeting

Unknown Lamer posted about a year ago | from the business-people-doing-business-things dept.

Businesses 160

theodp writes "In the days leading up to the Senate's passage of the landmark immigration bill, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg unveiled a new ad from FWD.us, his pro-immigration reform PAC. The ad, 'Emma', contains an altered version of Emma Lazarus' famous 1883 poem 'The New Colossus' ('Give me your tired, your poor...'), which is engraved on a bronze plaque inside the Statue of Liberty. 'In doing so,' notes the Latin Times, 'it [the ad] departs radically from the meaning of Lazarus' original — which exalted the Statue of Liberty as a "mother of exiles" and redeemer of the world's rootless poor — to accommodate the PAC's call for more high-skilled workers from abroad be allowed to work and live legally in the United States.' Instead of the original's call for 'the wretched refuse of your teeming shore' and 'the homeless, tempest-tossed', the FWD.us remix asks for 'the influencers and the dreamers...talent that is searching for purpose...those dedicated to the doing'. Here's a YouTube Doubler of readings of both versions — pick your fave, kids!"

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The poem was already a perversion of the idea... (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160461)

The idea was that the USA would be a shining city on a hill, an example for other nations.
It wasn't supposed to be a beacon for immigrants.
"Hey, you can do this too"... not "Hey, come over here cause you can't get your shit together over there"...

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (5, Insightful)

Black Parrot (19622) | about a year ago | (#44160595)

The idea was that the USA would be a shining city on a hill, an example for other nations.
It wasn't supposed to be a beacon for immigrants.
"Hey, you can do this too"... not "Hey, come over here cause you can't get your shit together over there"...

Whose idea?

Why did the people who wrote our constitution include a clause granting citizenship to those who are born here? Had *they* already perverted the idea?

When I was a schoolboy we were taught to take pride in the fact that we were and always had been a melting pot. Somehow we've run off the rails since then.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160719)

Why did the people who wrote our constitution include a clause granting citizenship to those who are born here?

Maybe because they wrote it more than two and quarter centuries ago when it wasn't so easy for people to migrate. Anyone who thinks America should adhere only to the original wording of the declaration and the original constitution is an idiot. Basing society which has experienced 237 years of social change on an equally old document is ludicrous.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (3, Funny)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44160763)

Anyone who thinks America should adhere only to the original wording of the declaration and the original constitution is an idiot. Basing society which has experienced 237 years of social change on an equally old document is ludicrous.

You want to discard the Constitution? Sorry, but the NSA beat you to it.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160773)

Society has changed, but human nature has not changed in our entire history. When those documents were written, they were written with those things in mind.

You might as well argue we shouldn't ground our engineering in physics because the position of the planets has changed.

Re: The poem was already a perversion of the idea. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160793)

Ah good, please remove Scalia and Thomas and Alito from the Supreme Court due to their idiocy.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161435)

Maybe because they wrote it more than two and quarter centuries ago when it wasn't so easy for people to migrate. Anyone who thinks America should adhere only to the original wording of the declaration and the original constitution is an idiot.

I don't know, the constitution has barley been touched in 200 years for good reasons and even then it was mostly for making social statements to reiterate what it already says in very simple language.

The guys who wrote it were a lot more thoughtful about what they write than you or I and they envisioned a lot more than we have realized in those 200+ years I'm ashamed to say.

Immigration built this country, how dare we inherit such a beautiful land at such great costs from such a successful idea and throw it out the door the second we are in charge. I can say that clear of all bigotry being 1/6 native Cherokee, 2 parts German, 2 part Irish and 1 missing part but I have some ideas from my music tastes.

Idiocracy at large here.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44160735)

Why did the people who wrote our constitution include a clause granting citizenship to those who are born here?

To ensure that former slaves and their descendants were considered citizens. You're talking about the 14th Amendment, which was ratified 3 years after the Civil War. I believe in birthright citizenship for the children of immigrants, but as a matter of historical fact that was not why the 14th Amendment was enacted. In fact children of white immigrants were considered citizens by birthright long before the Civil War.

When I was a schoolboy we were taught to take pride in the fact that we were and always had been a melting pot.

They told me it was a salad bowl (seriously). The idea that "we were and always had been a melting pot" is seriously idealized, but I will say that I believe in the ideal (even if it, to put it mildly, wasn't always practiced). Does that mean though that the US shouldn't place any limits on immigration, or that the US doesn't have the right to determine the criteria for immigration?

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

SylvesterTheCat (321686) | about a year ago | (#44161419)

They told me it was a salad bowl (seriously).

I had a history professor who referred to it as a "giant tossed salad."

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

davester666 (731373) | about a year ago | (#44162277)

Gives an entirely new meaning to "having your salad tossed"...

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

readin (838620) | about a year ago | (#44162689)

It wasn't where I grew up in the Midwest. We had two ingredients that could be considered separated like the ingredients in a tossed salad - there were blacks and whites. Have ingredients act like a tossed salad wasn't working out so well.

On the other hand, the people from all over Europe, as well as native Americans and people from other places too, were pretty thoroughly mixed and there were no other ethnic tensions to speak of. It was very common for people to have a little bit of Cherokee in them (a result of the trail of tears). People had German, French, English, Polish, Irish, Welsh, Mexican, Swedish, whatever ancestry and nobody cared much. It might occasionally be a fun parlor game to discuss ancestry - which usually meant guessing based on last names of grandparents, but other than that we didn't have people whose families had been in America for generations making absurd statements like "I'm Italian" the way I hear people do on the East Cost. The melting pot works. I've seen it.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (2)

lightknight (213164) | about a year ago | (#44160837)

The melting pot thing has been, IMHO, always been more an observation of fact, rather than an ideal. That is to say, the melting of several different kinds of metals together does, at times, give birth, to a stronger alloy. You don't want to use a weapon of pure iron up against someone using a blade of forged steel...your blade will crack in two when the blades meet. Unfortunately, the process is, as we've seen, closer to serendipity when a new alloy is discovered, especially since the science is still maturing; in other words, the US may be creating a lot of useful alloys, so to speak, but at times the furnace is running too hot for the right crystalline structure to appear for one alloy, or too cold for another. And that's not even touching on the madness of Uranium-type alloys (people) who are allotropic, and damn near impossible to work with / alloy with except under certain time-based circumstances.

And simple teaching of the US being a melting pot is not the same as it in action. In much the same sense as identifying programmers who are struggling (an earlier article) is not the same as finding a way to help them succeed. Identifying the alloys that are coming out of a furnace is one thing...improving the alloys that flow out of it is something else.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (2)

readin (838620) | about a year ago | (#44162645)

Whether or not the melting of metals together creates a something stronger than the original metals may be chance. But certainly an alloy is better than blade composed of various chunks of unalloyed metals barely attached to each other.

The alternative to the melting pot isn't the salad bowl, it's the Balkans. Or pick your favorite salad bowl. Pretty much anywhere in the world where various cultures and peoples have become mixed they've either assimilated to the point of no longer being able to easily distinguish, or they've maintained tense relations centuries occasionally flaring into wars and massecres.

I grew up in the midwest and really liked he model there. Unlike the east coast where I hear Americans whose families have been in America for generations utter nonsense like "I'm Italian" or "I'm Polish", where I grew up everyone was just American. There was tension whenever blacks and whites interacted, but embracing mutual assimilation can even erase that even as it erased the differences between the Germans, French, English and others who settled the area. Instead we have America-haters saying we should exclude blacks from being full Americans - we have to treat them like some alien hybrid of African and American (thus the term "African American" even though most of their families have been in America longer than the families of most white people.

So by all means let's have a melting pot. Even if melting two metals together forms a blade weaker than either of the two metals, that blade will still be stronger than a blade made of two separate pieces of metal or a blade made from metals that have not thoroughly blended.

Borg Immigration (2)

Roger W Moore (538166) | about a year ago | (#44160857)

When I was a schoolboy we were taught to take pride in the fact that we were and always had been a melting pot.

Yes - I've always found it amusing that the US is so proud of being a "melting pot". This suggests that all cultural distinctiveness will be lost and you have to become just like everyone else - it's the Borg approach to immigration. Not sure why you would want to be so proud of that but, having once been a US resident, I'll grant that it is an accurate metaphor.

Re:Borg Immigration (2)

0123456 (636235) | about a year ago | (#44160917)

You're right. Ghettos, no-go areas and riots are much better than assimilation.

Re:Borg Immigration (2)

Your.Master (1088569) | about a year ago | (#44161451)

False dichotomy. Can't you think of any alternatives?

In Canada (not sure about other places) they often contrast the tossed salad with the melting pot. In a tossed salad, there is distinction without separation (no ghettos yet no assimilation).

Of course these are both metaphors and we can argue about reality, but surely you can at least conceptualize two distinct cultures living together without race riots. Realistically, swathes of the US are like that, regardless of the melting pot metaphor.

Re:Borg Immigration (1)

0123456 (636235) | about a year ago | (#44161555)

In Canada (not sure about other places) they often contrast the tossed salad with the melting pot. In a tossed salad, there is distinction without separation (no ghettos yet no assimilation).

And what makes you think there are no immigrant ghettos in Canada?

Re:Borg Immigration (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44161003)

Yes - I've always found it amusing that the US is so proud of being a "melting pot". This suggests that all cultural distinctiveness will be lost and you have to become just like everyone else

Nice try at snarky low-level anti-Americanism, but it means no such thing. It does not mean that any more than being, say Polish, means that Poles have no individual identity. It does mean that our culture is an American alloy.

Re:Borg Immigration (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about a year ago | (#44161287)

This suggests that all cultural distinctiveness will be lost and you have to become just like everyone else - it's the Borg approach to immigration. Not sure why you would want to be so proud of that

Because it's the only solution that works long-term.

(I am an immigrant in US, so I would dare say that I have the moral right to judge.)

Re:Borg Immigration (1)

flimflammer (956759) | about a year ago | (#44161337)

You really think crossing the border strips any and all cultural identity from everyone? The whole melting pot metaphor is supposed to represent how culturally diverse we are, and it's true almost to an annoying level in some places.

If you really were a US resident, I don't know where you lived to feel so disconnected from the amplitude of intertwined cultures, but it's certainly not the norm.

Re:Borg Immigration (3, Insightful)

readin (838620) | about a year ago | (#44162739)

When I was a schoolboy we were taught to take pride in the fact that we were and always had been a melting pot.

Yes - I've always found it amusing that the US is so proud of being a "melting pot". This suggests that all cultural distinctiveness will be lost and you have to become just like everyone else - it's the Borg approach to immigration. Not sure why you would want to be so proud of that but, having once been a US resident, I'll grant that it is an accurate metaphor.

Although the metaphor isn't perfect, part of the idea of the melting pot is that you take the best parts from every culture. As for the cultural distinctiveness, the original cultures remain in whatever land they came from - where they still fight with their neighbors over those differences.

If you're born here, you're not losing your culture - you're living the culture you were born to. If you came here, well, why did you come if you didn't think the culture had a lot to offer? If you want to come here and embrace American culture while keeping a few of your own things that you honestly think are better, great! But if you want to come here and make is just like the place that was so much worse that you wanted to leave, then WTF?

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1, Insightful)

gandhi_2 (1108023) | about a year ago | (#44160879)

They were the Enlightenment ideas. Voltaire, Rousseau, Locke, Thomas Jefferson.
The United States of America was the first nation in history to be founded on ideas.
Every other country that ever existed was based on ethnicity. Even today we see people trying to break away to form ethnic homelands.

What Idea? The idea that the people allow a government, rather than the government allowing the people. The idea that a government was a social contract among free people in a state of nature. Personal sovereignty. Enumerated powers assigned to the government to secure life, liberty, and property.

Every other form of governance starts with some all-powerful people bequeathing to the subjects their privileges. Fucking Guevara wasn't a "revolutionary". There's nothing revolutionary about a government telling you what you can have, what you can do with what you have, or what you can get. It pretty much sums up most of the world's lives before the enlightenment.

The melting pot idea was introduced by people who had something to gain. It is perpetuated today by people who have something to gain. Companies who want cheap labor and politicians looking for a dependent population come to mind. Of course schools teach hooray-for-the-melting-pot. You are talking about the democrat party and unions. They teach constitution-as-a-living-document for the same reason: the document that constitutes what the government is can be molded to advance their leftist proclivities.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (5, Insightful)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44161053)

Every other country that ever existed was based on ethnicity. ... The melting pot idea was introduced by people who had something to gain.

First you praise the US for not being based on ethnicity, and then you criticize the melting pot. Talk about a confused argument.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161617)

Um, perhaps the parent is referring to the idea of the Massachussettes Bay Colony's John Winthrop that America should be a "city on a hill." You know, a theocracy where church membership and the proper ethnic background ae required to vote. Sounds about right.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161621)

You can't have both multiculturalism and the "melting pot".

Celebrating the culture of the ancestor's homeland has displaced the American culture, since it focuses on persisting the injustices on the past and not the solutions of the present.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year ago | (#44161699)

When I was a schoolboy we were taught to take pride in the fact that we were and always had been a melting pot.

Anti-immigration sentiment has run high and low to varying degrees since at least the 1890s, when we essentially shut down all immigration for China, and much for the same reasons, "they are taking our jobs." Somehow we still have jobs in America, even after four centuries of immigration......

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

davydagger (2566757) | about a year ago | (#44161929)

we do?

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year ago | (#44161951)

Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but almost all the anti-immigration sentiment that you see is because 'they' are taking our jobs.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

BitZtream (692029) | about a year ago | (#44162599)

At what point in your lifetime has America not had jobs? I'm only in my mid 30s, but at no point in my life has America not had jobs.

In the past few years there were plenty of lazy fucks who were unwilling to work a job that was 'beneath' them.

The people 'taking our jobs' are taking jobs the complainers are unwilling to work for pay they are unwilling to accept.

Foreigners don't take American jobs, American's are too fucking lazy to do them in the first place.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

hairyfeet (841228) | about a year ago | (#44161877)

Uhhh when they wrote that they not only had slaves, which were required because frankly there wasn't enough backs to do all the work, but they had hundreds upon hundreds of miles of open country, minus the Indians they slaughtered of course.

Today for every one you have climbing the fence to look for a job (which honestly I've had more than a dozen Americans ask to cut my mom's grass because they can't find any work, its fricking bad in the flyover states folks) you have probably a dozen criminals [immigratio...ancost.org] coming here to ply their "trade" because they know with all these "safe havens" its easy to set up camp here, you have whole busloads filled with those needing ultra expensive medical treatment (its gotten so bad in some places they are basically knocking them out and slipping them on a plane or bus, look up "guy goes into coma, wakes up in Poland" for just one example) and we have H1-Bs killing any chance of Americans learning those skills because they pay less for a master's than we do for a new econo-car.

We can't even feed our own (look up "face of hunger in USA" to see how many of our citizens go to bed hungry each night) or pay our own bills, we just can't support the damned planet folks, we just can't. Meanwhile while they open the floodgates they have sent more than 42,000 FACTORIES [businessinsider.com] overseas since 2001, you have nearly half the population getting handouts or aid, its just not sustainable folks, its gonna collapse and when it does its gonna be REALLY ugly, worse than NO after Katrina ugly.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

Conspiracy_Of_Doves (236787) | about a year ago | (#44161925)

Unless you were born before the early 20th century when Irish were considered second-class citizens, I'd say your statement is a bit late.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

nbauman (624611) | about a year ago | (#44162597)

When I was a schoolboy we were taught to take pride in the fact that we were and always had been a melting pot. Somehow we've run off the rails since then.

The idea of a melting pot was first popularized in the play, The Melting Pot (1908) by Israel Zangwill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Melting_Pot_(play) [wikipedia.org] The famous line is:

"America is God's Crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and reforming... Germans and Frenchmen, Irishmen and Englishmen, Jews and Russians - into the Crucible with you all! God is making the American."

If you read the play, you'll see that he was talking about what became a popular idea of assimilation, while preserving some of the native culture. Don't worry, we're not going to take your Christmas trees away.

Emma Lazarus wrote her poem in a climate of socialism. She was a supporter of the immigrant poor.
The Latin Times is correct to identify Zuckerberg's ad as a shameless distortion and exploitation of Lazarus' poem. He's using her name to bring about exactly the opposite of what she fought for. She wanted to bring the poor and desperate to America as a place of refuge. Zuckerberg wants desirable skilled labor because they'll work cheaper for him and he can make money out of them. But what do you expect from a billionaire?

"The New Colossus"

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

evilviper (135110) | about a year ago | (#44160611)

The idea was that the USA would be a shining city on a hill, an example for other nations.
It wasn't supposed to be a beacon for immigrants.

"The shining city on a hill" is very recent, far more so than massive US immigration promoted by the US. The US desire for immigrants dates back at-least to the Louisiana Purchase (1803), where it was acknowledged that holding the land against other powers with colonial ambitions required occupation by US citizens, with economic ties to the east coast.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160647)

The idea was that the USA would be a shining city on a hill, an example for other nations.
It wasn't supposed to be a beacon for immigrants.
"Hey, you can do this too"... not "Hey, come over here cause you can't get your shit together over there"...

Are you Native American? If not, you're a hypocrite.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (3, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | about a year ago | (#44160715)

Are you Native American? If not, you're a hypocrite.

Do you seriously think the Native Americans don't regret the way they left their borders open to anyone who turned up?

If they could go back in time and build a wall to keep Europeans out, I suspect most would eagerly have done so.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160929)

Chief Gillespie, I didn't know that Sparta had gotten the Internet.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

Sarius64 (880298) | about a year ago | (#44161263)

Are you Native American? If not, you're a hypocrite.

Do you seriously think the Native Americans don't regret the way they left their borders open to anyone who turned up?

If they could go back in time and build a wall to keep Europeans out, I suspect most would eagerly have done so.

That's some looney stuff. Native Americans didn't worry much around their immediate tribal grounds. There wasn't a single tribe with the political or physical capacity to project the power your suggestion would have required.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (2)

dcollins (135727) | about a year ago | (#44161443)

Walls are a sign of a society in decline: Great Wall of China, Hadrian's Wall, Berlin Wall, etc. They say: "here was our high-water mark, then we were swept back out".

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (2)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44161641)

Walls are a sign of a society in decline: Great Wall of China, Hadrian's Wall

The "Chinese" starting building those walls several centuries BC, before there even was a China.

Hadrian's Wall was built in 122 AD, 354 years before the fall of the Western Empire, and 1331 years before the fall of the Eastern Empire.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (1)

readin (838620) | about a year ago | (#44162713)

Walls are a sign of a society in decline: Great Wall of China, Hadrian's Wall

The "Chinese" starting building those walls several centuries BC, before there even was a China.

Would there even have been a China without those walls?

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160975)

Native American's are immigrants too. There are no native peoples, only naturally born.
 
Your argument makes you look like a dumb prick.

Re:The poem was already a perversion of the idea.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161927)

That apostrophe immigrated from a possessive. Using it to make a plural makes you look dumb.

At least be consistent: immigrant's, people's, make's.

An Important Inaccuracy (3, Informative)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44160489)

From the summary:

Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg unveiled a new ad from FWD.us, his pro-immigration reform PAC.

This is inaccurate. The main focus of the PAC is on guest workers, not immigrants.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (5, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | about a year ago | (#44160599)

"Guest workers" is such a euphemism, we should use something more accurate:

out-sourcing trainees
skill exporters
wage reducers
foreign vulnerables

Don't get me wrong, I welcome actual immigrants. I don't even have a problem with individuals who come here for temporary jobs of any sort. I just think that a system where the top 10 h1b employers - accounting for half of all h1b visa holders are outsourcers [motherjones.com] is in any way good for americans citizens or immigrants. If anything it discourages the next generation from even considering the idea of going to school to learn how to be an engineer which just makes things even worse for us down the road.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (1)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year ago | (#44161047)

If Big Business was serious about their rhetoric, they'd be trying to expand the E-visa quotas [state.gov] instead of the H1-B quotas.
That would allow us to truly recruit the cream of the crop instead of trying to vacuum up even more of the 1~1.5 million engineers that India graduates every year.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161143)

You want accuracy? Here's what you call them:

invaders
colonizers
conquerors

Yes, I *do* have a problem with immigrants. We don't NEED any more. Our unemployment is high, and rising. Our economy is moribund. We're already borrowing money from other countries to afford to feed the wretched refuge (both native and invader) that is already here!

The Stupid party wants more wage slaves to drive down all salaries to a pittance, and the Evil party wants more vote slaves to assist their clinging to power. Neither cares a fig for the actual current American citizens.

Let all those supposedly wonderful skilled and talented people stay home and improve their own countries! Wouldn't that help make the entire globe a better place? The whole damn human race can't live on this one part of the North American continent.

The "American experiment" is over, and the results are in: failure. Utter and complete failure of a people to govern themselves. Slavery is returning, just now with better marketing and labeled "new and improved"! All that's left is to see who builds and runs the death camps, and who dies in them.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (4, Interesting)

Black Parrot (19622) | about a year ago | (#44160625)

From the summary:

Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg unveiled a new ad from FWD.us, his pro-immigration reform PAC.

This is inaccurate. The main focus of the PAC is on guest workers, not immigrants.

Yeah, "pro-immigration reform" is a bit of a stretch for "pro-cheap-foreign-labor reform".

"Give us your (somewhat) skilled workers willing to work for a sub-standard wage.
  Or rather, just loan them to us long enough for the next group to be ready."

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (3, Insightful)

TubeSteak (669689) | about a year ago | (#44161087)

"Give us your (somewhat) skilled workers willing to work for a sub-standard wage.

The thing is, it doesn't even have to be a sub-standard wage.
They can pay the market wage, but the market wage is significantly suppressed by the influx of X00,000 new workers every year.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (2)

the_other_chewey (1119125) | about a year ago | (#44160781)

From the summary:

Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg unveiled a new ad from FWD.us, his pro-immigration reform PAC.

This is inaccurate. The main focus of the PAC is on guest workers, not immigrants.

That always works so well. To alleviate a shortage of workers after WW2, Germany had
a "guest worker [wikipedia.org] " program, inviting over a million of mostly young
men to work in German industries, for what was assumed would be a limited
time, after which they would return "home".

Guess what: Germany became home, and over 60 years later, there are now
millions of third-generation descendants of those guest workers living in Germany.

"There was a call for workers, and there came people." – Max Frisch

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (1)

hjf (703092) | about a year ago | (#44161723)

But it did turn out pretty well for germany! The whole fucking country was destroyed after war and it's one of the most industrialized countries in the world now!

Let's not forget: the problem with immigration in the US is not the illegal immigrants. It's the non white immigrants ;)

Don't believe me? Look at the linked facebook page "boo hoo, these are not Ellis Island immigrants, they are southern border" Wow. Come on. We all know it's a racism issue, but at least try to keep pretending it's about illegal immigration.

Ellis Island immigrants. As if the scum of Ireland, from 2 centuries ago was any better than the scum of Mexico. Oh yes - there is a difference: The irish were white.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161999)

Well, even after the first World War, their economy was crippled by sanctions and hyperinflation and their military was restricted and put under surveillance (although, it was incredibly lousy surveillance), yet they managed to come back for round 2 with even more ambitious world domination goals.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (1)

davydagger (2566757) | about a year ago | (#44160811)

of course it is, its a PAC, promoting the self-intrest of facebook's CEOs, as well as the intrests of other corporate and stockholders of various tech companies.

The message is simple: more cheap foreign labor

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161175)

Also how was this exactly Mark Z's doing? I see Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, the CEO's or founders of YouTube, Netflix, Groupon, Yelp, Yahoo, etc etc listed on the website.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about a year ago | (#44161305)

This is inaccurate. The main focus of the PAC is on guest workers, not immigrants.

If by "guest workers" you mean all H-1Bs, then you should understand that for many people this is, effectively, the only viable path to green card and citizenship, so they're guest workers in name only (and, coincidentally, handling this is precisely why H-1B is considered a "dual intent" [wikipedia.org] visa).

I can't say for Facebook specifically, but if they're anything like Google and Microsoft in that regard (and I would expect that to be the case), then they sponsor all their H-1B employees for green cards as soon as they're eligible. In which case their stance would be very much pro-immigration in practice.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (2)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#44161789)

If by "guest workers" you mean all H-1Bs, then you should understand that for many people this is, effectively, the only viable path to green card

Why is that effectively the only viable path? Because there are limits and quotas on immigration to the US, and there are many more applicants than available slots. So why are H-1B's entitled to special consideration? There's no objective evidence that their skills are in short supply in this country.

In which case their stance would be very much pro-immigration in practice.

No, the H-1B doesn't increase chances for immigrants in general, it just skews the selection of immigrants in a way that's to the advantage of tech billionaires. If you believe that Zuckerberg, Gates, and the rest of these oppressed billionaires have suddenly passionately embraced our immigration tradition from a sense of patriotism and moral obligation, then I've got a bridge to sell you. If that were the case, they'd be talking about refugees and so forth, instead of people who can only afford one live-in servant in their country of origin.

Re:An Important Inaccuracy (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about a year ago | (#44162435)

Why is that effectively the only viable path? Because there are limits and quotas on immigration to the US, and there are many more applicants than available slots. So why are H-1B's entitled to special consideration?

Your logic is flawed. It's not that "H1Bs are entitled to special consideration". It's that people who want to immigrate take whatever paths are available to them, and for people without relatives in the country, H1B is often the only track available.

And what is wrong with that, exactly? Most other countries that do immigration also provide the work-to-citizenship track.

Fuckerberg (4, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | about a year ago | (#44160497)

Seriously fuck that guy. I'm sure that if it wasn't him, some other unscrupulous douche would be in his place doing basically the same shit but he's the one here and now so fuck him and his abuse of the powerless.

Can I pick (2)

rsilvergun (571051) | about a year ago | (#44160517)

whichever one doesn't involve me competing head on with 1 million new (and desperate) working in the worst economy since WWII?

Re:Can I pick (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44162289)

Oh, so now we don't want to compete in an open market with others? Dey took ur jerbs, much?

The corporate version (5, Insightful)

evilviper (135110) | about a year ago | (#44160527)

"Keep your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
Send me your young, your rich,
Your highly skilled, willing to work 18 hour days.
They will soon be returned to you as wretched refuse,
on your teeming shore."

Re:The corporate version (1)

shoes58 (1203522) | about a year ago | (#44160583)

Oh, but for the lack of mod points! Upmod Insightful+1...

Re:The corporate version (2)

FuegoFuerte (247200) | about a year ago | (#44160631)

Sadly, this is probably the most accurate version of what's happening today. The immigrants cheering this on seem to not realize that the immigration reform currently in the works is merely a way to legalize and increase the exploitation of those already here illegally. This will not end well, for anyone. We'll bring more tired and poor from overseas, as long as they have barely sufficient technical skill to push the right buttons at approximately the right time. We'll displace skilled workers with cheap, barely adequate labor, while working the cheap, barely adequate labor until they burn out and go home with their relative riches.

In the end we'll cheapen the skilled jobs to the point no one bothers to acquire the skills, and bring them down to the pay scale of a waiter at a middle-class restaurant, but working double the hours.

Re:The corporate version (4, Informative)

adisakp (705706) | about a year ago | (#44160713)

Here's the original for those too lazy to search:

"The New Colossus"
Emma Lazarus - 1883

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Re:The corporate version (1)

Swave An deBwoner (907414) | about a year ago | (#44161259)

I'm actually crying when I read this, but thank you for posting it.

Re:The corporate version (4, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year ago | (#44161907)

You can see the difference between the original and the Zuckerberg version.

The original version says, "all those people that you rejected, we can see that, even though on the outside they like worthless, they have good in them. Send them to us and we will help bring out their greatness."

Zuckerberg is saying, "Hey send us all your good people, who everyone knows is good. We want them."

The generosity of the first is easily matched by the selfishness of the second.

Re:The corporate version (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161063)

Dumb fucks.

Keep dancing on America's grave (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160571)

This news may be one of the most offensive things I've read all year.

the plaque itself is a remix (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160619)

The statue of liberty didn't originally have that inscription, that was added later and itself had nothing to do with the symbolism of Libertas.

Re:the plaque itself is a remix (4, Informative)

adisakp (705706) | about a year ago | (#44160737)

The statue of liberty didn't originally have that inscription, that was added later and itself had nothing to do with the symbolism of Libertas.

The poem was written in 1883 and read at the Opening of the Statue of Liberty to the public in 1886. While it took almost 20 years before a plaque was added to memorialize the poem in 1903, it was very much in the original spirit of the the Freedom the Statue represents.

It was not like the addition of "In God We Trust" on our money, or "Under God" to the Pledge during the McCarthy era of rampant fears of God-less communism.

Re:the plaque itself is a remix (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161967)

"In God We Trust" is a pretty interesting statement considering the statue of Liberty is not just a nod to the concept of liberty but also a depiction of the ancient Roman goddess Libertas.

God is a vague term to begin with, whose god are we talking about? What's its name? A title is not a name, we might as well say "In President We Trust". See how grammatically atrocious that is?

When you see the statement "In God We Trust", this god in question is not your god.
When children say the pledge of allegiance, the god they reference is also not your god.
If anything, the god in question here can only be Libertas. [wikipedia.org]

Re:the plaque itself is a remix (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44162565)

>What's its name? A title is not a name, we might as well say "In President We Trust". See how grammatically atrocious that is?

For some reason I don't think you get too huffy when asked "do you believe in god?"

Should be (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160639)

I am a brazen giant of Geek fame,
Who conquered networks astride from lan to lan;
Here at our white-washed, paywalls shall stand
A nerdy man whose torch lights flame wars
Master of walled gardens
Father of social Exiles. From his mouse-hand
Glows the world-wide web; his code wileding minions command
The air-gapped harbor that geocities frame.
"Keep, ancient pictures, your funny stories!" cries he
With silent lips. "Give me your engineers , your admins,
Your huddled masses yearning to code C,
The wretched refuse of your Mac store.
Send these, the clueless, tempest-tost to me,
I need more fodder for my golden horde!"

The added lines (2)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year ago | (#44160643)

Here are the added lines:

And give me the influencers and the dreamers/
Talent that is searching for purpose/
Those dedicated to the doing
...
Send all these, the boundless born to me


I guess that's what you get when your writers are unaware of meter......I'd really like to know who thought the word 'influencers' meant anything. Woodie Guthrie could improvise more poetic speech live.

Re:The added lines (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161585)

Why isn't he hiring Harvard grads instead of immigrants? Perhaps the cost of a US education has inflated to such a level that the payback required to justify the expense makes you unemployable. Perhaps we need to deflate the cost of the US education system because it's economically unsustainable.

Re:The added lines (2)

Arker (91948) | about a year ago | (#44161947)

"Why isn't he hiring Harvard grads instead of immigrants? Perhaps the cost of a US education has inflated to such a level that the payback required to justify the expense makes you unemployable. Perhaps we need to deflate the cost of the US education system because it's economically unsustainable."

Insightful. Education has become such a racket in this country. The lefties thought that if everyone had a college education it would make us all richer. Nice thought but it doesnt work that way, it just leads to inflation. You have to spend more money and more time acquiring a college degree to get the same menial job you would have gotten with a high school diploma or a GED before all the good intentions were inflicted on us, and wind up carrying a heavy debt burden. Once again good intentions prove no substitute for understanding what the heck is going on.

Re:The added lines (3, Insightful)

nbauman (624611) | about a year ago | (#44162677)

The lefties thought that if everyone had a college education it would make us all richer.

Don't blame the lefties for that one. I remember reading the Wall Street Journal editorial page during the 1970s, and their solution for all the problems of poverty was that anybody in this country could get a college degree if he worked hard enough, and a college degree was the ticket out of poverty. No need for the federal government to order desegregation, they said. If the negroes want good jobs, all they have to do is go to college. (Like Condi Rice, playing Chopin for success.)

The idea that education solves all problems is a popular one and appealed to liberals and conservatives alike.

To people on the left (not liberals), education was desirable but education alone wouldn't solve the fundamental problem of an unequal, unjust society.

Once again good intentions prove no substitute for understanding what the heck is going on.

You're right about that one.

Re:The added lines (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161881)

sorry, could you provide a diff?

Re:The added lines (1)

Laxori666 (748529) | about a year ago | (#44162305)

influencers: those who influence.

Re:The added lines (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year ago | (#44162469)

Believe it or not, I didn't ask for the definition.

Re:The added lines (1)

mako1138 (837520) | about a year ago | (#44162433)

Those dedicated to the doing

How transcendentally awful. Adding lines to a sonnet and not respecting the structure. Was it too much effort to do it in iambic pentameter?

Clearly we would rather other countries rich get. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160707)

Richer than to put in place the tools to hand up our own.

Don't worry the engineers your looking for are working in the mail room or some such shit.
Not even listed on their resumes so they could get the job.

Or we paid to train him and he argued with his wife one day and now has a felony for no playing ball with a DA with a stick up his ass.

Don't worry Lots of people are deciding it is your big company that they dont need it is just not worth it.
You job is just not worth my life without a pension. I am better off even if I fail at my own thing. At least I tried.

Of course it is worth it to the person you bring into this country to transfer the knowledge to their county I mean terrorist.

The King Is Wearing No Clothes (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | about a year ago | (#44160755)

Mr Zuckerburg would throw the statue of liberty in your face with his ad. But when I see the H1B's roll in, I see no families. Why?

As for India, isn't it time to let them be free, of us? Canada's oil pipe to Huston Texas can only help the buyers in Brazil; are they not able to be free of us?

Re:The King Is Wearing No Clothes (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about a year ago | (#44161321)

But when I see the H1B's roll in, I see no families. Why?

Because you aren't looking hard? I'm an H-1B employee, and I moved with my wife (divorced since). Every single person on that visa I know who is in a relationship (which is most of them) have their partners, kids etc with them.

Should read (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160761)

"We know who you are, we know where you came from and we know where you're going"

This is an attempt to get us to give up (1)

pudknocker (516571) | about a year ago | (#44160909)

We don't have enough "influencers and dreamers" so we need to get them from somewhere else. Instead of working to generated increased interest in STEM and increase the number of skilled workers here, keep college tuition unaffordable to even further discourage our youth from pursuing tech careers.

Who gives a fuck? Bush killed America (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44160915)

Fucking bible thumping conservative whores have lowered this nation into a quagmire of hell.

Zuck him (2)

Ryanrule (1657199) | about a year ago | (#44161115)

Zuck him. He can go zuck himself. What a motherzucker.

It Is So Over, Isn't It? (1)

Zontar The Mindless (9002) | about a year ago | (#44161177)

I try to tell myself it was all an illusion in the first place.

But it doesn't feel that way.

Re:It Is So Over, Isn't It? (2)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about a year ago | (#44161363)

It wasn't this way until after 1980 or so when everything became all about the DOLLAR.

It could easily swing back. All it would take is another activist generation. The seeds for that already exist in the current abuses.

Let's become a giant shopping mall (2, Informative)

hessian (467078) | about a year ago | (#44161247)

We'll invite everyone in.

Culture? We have none. We are all citizens of the television.

Heritage? None. We are arbitrary, gray and without origins. We need government, television and shopping to feel a sense of place.

Values? We have nothing in common except that we like money, we like sex, and we like to shop.

It's the path to Idiocracy + Brave New World.

Why does Zuckerberg support it? Cheap labor. People who permanent vote for no majority rule. And more customers who haven't yet gotten jaded about the decay.

Re:Let's become a giant shopping mall (1)

game kid (805301) | about a year ago | (#44161591)

Values? We have nothing in common except that we like money, we like sex, and we like to shop.

...as long as no tits pop out at us on the TV through all the sex, or the National Security Federal Bureau of Intelligence Agency Communications Commission may get angry.

Re:Let's become a giant shopping mall (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44162519)

No, it's okay for tits to pop out, as long as it only happens on the paid channels. Gotta make that money!

Anything for more cheap labor, eh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161273)

Zuck's astroturf campaign rolls on...

New and Old (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about a year ago | (#44161307)

The new one to makes me want to puke.

The old one is genius, and what my great-grandfather lived.

FUCK.US (3, Insightful)

Required Snark (1702878) | about a year ago | (#44161369)

Zuckerberg spelled FWD.US wrong. He got lucky and made billions, and now he wants the rest of us to go fuck ourselves so he can make ever more billions.

I think that he is the one who should get fucked. If he was on fire i wouldn't piss on him to put him out.

No contest (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44161503)

I'll take brainers over beaners. Of course, my idea of brains doesn't mean indentured indian servants.

FWD.us made me think of FreeWorldDialup (1)

kriston (7886) | about a year ago | (#44162073)

FWD.us made me think of the defunct VoIP service known as FreeWorldDialup and run by Jeff Pulver. Nevermind, then.

The Statue of Liberty (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44162171)

Isn't there where Liberty is buried?

I Think The More Accurate Version Is... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44162521)

Give us your frightened, your desperate, your exploitable masses,
Willing to work like slaves for nothing while we use them,
As platforms for political power and a permanent underclass,
'Til amnesty shears one flock of sheep to make room for the next.

I can dream (2)

readin (838620) | about a year ago | (#44162693)

I dream of someday being rich enough to support more immigration and even illegal immigration like Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg.
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