Beta

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

EU To Vote On Suspension of Data Sharing With US

timothy posted 1 year,27 days | from the but-we-thought-you-wanted-to-share dept.

EU 330

New submitter badzilla writes with a story from ZDnet that says a vote is scheduled in the European Parliament for today, U.S. Independence Day, on "whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents should be suspended, following allegations that U.S. intelligence spied on EU citizens." One interesting scenario outlined by the article is that it may disrupt air travel between the U.S. and EU: "In the resolution, submitted to the Parliament on Tuesday, more than two-dozen politicians from a range of political parties call the spying 'a serious violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations,' and call on the suspension of the Passenger Name Records (PNR) system. Prior to leaving the airport, airlines must make passenger data available to the U.S. Names, dates of birth, addresses, credit or debit card details and seat numbers are among the data — though critics say the information has never helped catch a suspected criminal or terrorist before. Should the PNR system be suspended, it could result in the suspension of flights to the U.S. from European member states."

cancel ×

330 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Microsoft (-1, Offtopic)

Microsoft YEEAAH (2973055) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187361)

Microsoft. Microsoft Microsoft?

Ouch! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187367)

Quite a mess this Snowden is creating huh!!

Re:Ouch! (-1, Troll)

Microsoft YAH! (2973129) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187377)

Microsoft. Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft!

Re:Ouch! (5, Insightful)

moronoxyd (1000371) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187381)

Don't blame the messenger.

The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.

Re:Ouch! (-1, Troll)

Microsoft YAH! (2973129) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187417)

Microsoft? Microsoft Microsoft!

Re:Ouch! (3, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187449)

Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.

Re:Ouch! (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187521)

Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.

Bring out the proof then.

This isn't the first time that the US has been caught with this kind of shit and there have been several cases where the US has used illegally gathered information to get favorable deals during business negotiations rather than to just use it for national security issues.

I suspect that you only can find information of French being in the same club and even then only as a response to shit the US spies did against them.

Re:Ouch! (4, Informative)

amiga3D (567632) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187711)

All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies. I think it's expected to happen and only when it becomes public do the players pretend to be outraged.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930418&slug=1696416 [nwsource.com]

Re:Ouch! (1)

BioTitan (2624413) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187815)

This is true. Basically all countries in the world run some level of monitoring through their consulates and embassies—this includes US allies spying on the US. Few have the ability to tap everything, but they all do it. For them, it's just basic intelligence gathering. http://news.yahoo.com/obama-suggests-spying-nations-allies-common-210845024.html [yahoo.com] [AP via Yahoo]

Re:Ouch! (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187787)

Seriously? MI6 has been world-renowned as a leader in intelligence gathering for both above- and below-the board purposes since WWII. Recently, the UK was caught working with the US to capture digital information from in-country diplomats during a number of conferences.

Everybody who can afford it does it -- that's common knowledge and common sense. Russian and Chinese spies are routinely caught in the US and traded for US spies caught abroad... and let's not even get into the kind of shit that Mossad does. If you're seriously claiming to be ignorant of this stuff, you should probably just steer clear of these conversations.

All of this ballyhooing is just political hand-waving. Everyone pretends to be so upset that they're willing to break ties and blah blah blah, just to have something to hang over the head of the other guy at the negotiating table. Watch... you'll see.

Re:Ouch! (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187559)

It's not "nations" that are doing the spying. Overwhelming majority of a nation is not spying on anyone. Governments are doing the spying, nations are the victims of spying. What they should do is place an information embargo on each other's spying asses and leave the rest of both nations out of it. I do not agree to be dragged into this mess.

Re:Ouch! (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187567)

They aren't pissed off about the spying and our privacy being violated; they're pissed off that someone else is doing it.

Re:Ouch! (5, Interesting)

gl4ss (559668) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187665)

Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.

for most european countries citizens it wouldn't be even legal to be spying on other countries(to do espionage abroad). for NSA faculty it's legal.
so a lot of the intelligence - which isn't a lot at all - we gather is by trading information with others.

however, this isn't about even that kind of information trading. this is just about the EU providing things like flight passenger lists for european flights to americans, providing our bank statements to americans.. that was done pretty much just as goodwill for the "war on terror" effort. now it's getting obvious and over the table that the data isn't being kept with any sanctity - that once the data goes to usa they don't give a fuck about where it came from since it's from outside the usa they think they can do anything with it.

so yeah, fuck off. abusing privileges tends to end up in losing them. if you can't be bothered to put on any legal rules on access to the data even then why the fuck should we be providing you with all our data which could be used among other things to manipulate stock markets? why?

Re:Ouch! (2)

spartacus_prime (861925) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187615)

yes, but to deal with that problem would be too difficult for most, so it's easier to blame a whistleblower.

Re:Ouch! (4, Insightful)

Black Parrot (19622) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187659)

Don't blame the messenger.

The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.

I wonder how many of the politicians (domestic & foreign) who are demanding investigations based on his revelations are stepping up to the plate and trying to keep him out of prison.

Re:Ouch! (3, Insightful)

MrDoh! (71235) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187761)

I wonder how many of the politicians who won't help him are scared silly on what secrets of theirs may be revealed.

Re:Ouch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187717)

that's no plane!

Re:Ouch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187767)

Well now we have France in the game as well. Looks like more and more of the EU is getting out.

The US isn't the only western country with an all-seeing digital eye... at least, according to Le Monde. The news outlet claims that France's General Directorate for External Security has a PRISM-like system that captures and processes the metadata for "billions and billions" of communications, including internet messaging, phone calls, SMS and even faxes. The goal is ostensibly to track the behavior of terrorist cells, but the Directorate allegedly shares the anonymized information with other intelligence services, including the police. Whether or not residents can do much about the snooping, if real, is another matter. One source believes that it exists in a gray area, as French law reportedly doesn't account for the possibility of storing personal data this way. We're skeptical of claims that the Directorate can spy on "anyone, anytime," especially without official commentary, but we'd suggest that locals be careful with their secrets all the same.

Re:Ouch! (1)

erroneus (253617) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187467)

Indeed. All those secret things the governments have been doing are all getting exposed and the people aren't prepared and processed yet. You know, disarmed, pacified, collected into groups, camps, re-educaiton facilities and the like?

I call for MORE insiders to expose what's going on.

They want to call this treason? They want to call it espionage? Treason and espionage is precisely what they are doing.

Re:Ouch! (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187513)

They want to call this treason? They want to call it espionage? Treason and espionage is precisely what they are doing.

Espionage? Probably, although when it's being done with the full knowledge of the other government using that term is a bit of a stretch.
Treason? Under US law no it's not. Our Constitution defines Treason very specifically as giving aid or shelter to an Enemy. You might not like it, it might violate our Constitution or our laws, but those things aren't enough to be considered Treason.
Or in other words, if you're going to call any possible Constitutional violation "treason", then you're violating the Constitution's definition of Treason and therefore guilty of it yourself.

Re:Ouch! (4, Informative)

Jeremy Erwin (2054) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187685)

Our Constitution defines Treason very specifically as giving aid or shelter to an Enemy.

or in levying war against the united states. However, there is an additional element to the "aid and comfort" clause.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

From Cramer v US 325 US 1 (1945) [wikisource.org]

Thus the crime of treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy; and rendering him aid and comfort. A citizen intellectually or emotionally may favor the enemy and harbor sympathies or convictions disloyal to this country's policy or interest, but so long as he commits no act of aid and comfort to the enemy, there is no treason. On the other hand, a citizen may take actions, which do aid and comfort the enemy-making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason.

Luckily for the authoritarians, sedition laws--in particular, Seditious Conspiracy [wikipedia.org] have filled in the gaps.

Re:Ouch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187715)

Legal terms frequently have no relation to how those terms are used in the actual English language. Think of legalese as an entirely separate language that just happens to use many of the same words and grammar. You are writing about what treason means in legalse, yet that has no bearing on what treason means in English.

Re:Ouch! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187719)

> Espionage? Probably, although when it's being done with the full knowledge of the other government

Except that it's not. It's with the limited knowledge of a few people in the other spy groups, and it's segmented off into walled compartments. So very, very few people actually know the full extent of such data sharing, even among the legislative bodies that fund it or the courts that rule on it.

And yes, it's often treason because the agencies engage in *exchange* of such information, with governments that are enemies or contain enemies of the US. Take a good look at the nuclear technology trading by Pakistan, who are lauded as allies to the US because they let us use airbases there for the Afghanistan, then Iraq wars.

The "calling it treason is itself treason" is just a kindergarten game of "I'm rubber and you're glue".

Let me get this right (4, Interesting)

Chrisq (894406) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187383)

The British GCHQ taps fibre connections, collects data on EU citizens and shares it with US intelligence services. In response the EU wants to stop sharing information on passenger records for people flying between the EU and the USA. .... Well I suppose its easier than suggesting that EU governments should not spy on its citizens.

Re:Let me get this right (-1, Troll)

Microsoft pwns (2973133) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187405)

Microsoft. Microsoft.

Re:Let me get this right (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187419)

The British are not the EU, in fact they are viewed by most as an US shill inside the EU. In the area of surveillance they are ahead US by quite a bit.

Re:Let me get this right (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187651)

The British are not the EU, in fact they are viewed by most as an US shill inside the EU. In the area of surveillance they are ahead US by quite a bit.

We need another De Gaulle. He gave the finger to the US and to NATO in the sixties, and he absolutely didn't want the UK in the CEE (later to be known as the EU). We don't need Turkey nor Israel in the EU and we certainly don't need the 51st american state either (aka the UK).

Re:Let me get this right (4, Insightful)

xaxa (988988) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187861)

The British are not the EU, in fact they are viewed by most as an US shill inside the EU. In the area of surveillance they are ahead US by quite a bit.

We need another De Gaulle. He gave the finger to the US and to NATO in the sixties, and he absolutely didn't want the UK in the CEE (later to be known as the EU). We don't need Turkey nor Israel in the EU and we certainly don't need the 51st american state either (aka the UK).

Please don't make us (the UK) leave! The EU's the only thing with a chance of preventing further erosion of British citizens' working rights, civil liberties, environment, etc.

Unfortunately, many of the uninformed voters here want to leave :-(

Re:Let me get this right (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187621)

The US is spying on EU citizens.

The Brits are spying on EU citizens.

Therefore, for the EU to be upset at the US is foolish.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Is it the "everyone else is doing it as well" argument the rest of us grew out of when we were 3?

Re:Let me get this right (4, Informative)

ledow (319597) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187683)

Britain and the EU have an odd relationship unlike almost any other country in the EU.

Yes, technically, we are part of it. But we're exempt from other parts associated with it (we don't use the Euro, etc.). We pump more money in than some others and, as compensation, we're allowed to opt-out of certain things.

Also, if you ask people in Britain what it means to go to Europe, it doesn't include touring around Britain. Britain and the EU are - to the British - two separate entities. Even more confusing you have things like the EC and the continent of Europe and lots of other definitions over the years that we are sometimes in, sometimes out.

However, GCHQ has hit a LOT of flak for its actions. The question really is - if what the US does is illegal, and the EU is doing it back, why do we have a formal legal statement of something else entirely? Why bother? Why not just legalise what we do or not? But, ultimately, the attitude is - if we DO share things with you, why distrust us and find things out illegally for your self? And if you do that, why should we bother to trust you or give you anything anyway?

The GCHQ involvement is a side-issue, and you can guarantee that whatever sanctions the US has imposed on it, those on GCHQ will be worse.

But, politics what it is, I find it hard to believe that anything will happen, certainly anything that will affect air travel. More likely a few trade agreements will have more lenient terms than they would have otherwise and promises to clean up, and that'll be the end of it.

Though, I swore off going to the US many years ago after they basically took liberties with what rights they think they have (which include this EU passenger data crap). If I was forced to enter the US now, I'd do so for as short a time as possible and carry no electronic equipment whatsoever and encrypt all communications home. That's the only sensible business choice and has been for years, and it just happens to be the complete antithesis of the intention to collect that data in the first place.

Legalize it? No, prosecute it! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187897)

"Why not just legalise what we do or not?"

You GCHQ/NSA lot don't get it do you?? It's written right into your constitution, it's written right there into EU rights law. It's not limited to the spying on politicians. They spied on EVERYONE and EVERYONE is protected from this surveillance. Both in the USA and in Europe.

So GCHQ collected this data, and gave a feed to the NSA and NSA is collecting exabytes of data too. They stick it in a database.

The General in charge come along, today he's decided to examine people who visited the NRA website, because he decided that pro-gun lobby might be terrorists and he wants to see who they are.
Or he doesn't like Occupy Wallstreet because his broker thinks they're bad, so he spies on them.
Or he decides that victims of medicine side effects might terrorize a pharma company and so pulls up those who sent emails to the class action lawyer representing the case.
Or he sees people on Slashdot think he's a dick, and are angry with him, so he decides to spy on Slashdot.
Or he decides mums on Mumsnet are complaining too much about some contaminated baby food, those domestic extremists!
Or he decides uppety Brits are voting for a leader he doesn't like, so he leaks some emails (that's how the last leader took over in New Zealand, someone leaked private embarrassing emails).

The law protects ordinary people from people like him. Its there for a reason. Since 2010 alone, there have been 20 military coups in the world. There has been no successful takeover of a nation by a foreign terrorist group since... well the middle ages? The vikings maybe? It's always the dull boring grey Putin figure that ends up grabbing the power.

" If I was forced to enter the US now, I'd do so for as short a time as possible and carry no electronic equipment whatsoever and encrypt all communications home."

I cancelled my Thanksgiving visit to USA, it's not a safe place now.

Re:Let me get this right (5, Interesting)

gstoddart (321705) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187713)

The British GCHQ taps fibre connections, collects data on EU citizens and shares it with US intelligence services. In response the EU wants to stop sharing information on passenger records for people flying between the EU and the USA

Well, it's right there in the article:

Meanwhile, Reuters reports that the European Commission is examining if the U.K. broke EU law, which could lead to an infringement procedure against the British government. This could lead to financial sanctions imposed by the European Court of Justice.

That the UK did this is also something they're looking at.

Well I suppose its easier than suggesting that EU governments should not spy on its citizens.

That's exactly what they're suggesting.

There's also this:

I can not understand why a U.S. citizen has the right to redress in the EU, but an EU citizen does not have the right to redress in the U.S.

As usual, the US won't sign an agreement which says a US entity would have to face laws in other countries, but expect they will get access to those laws when convenient.

It's a one-sided arrangement that isn't working for anyone but the US, and I believe you're going to start seeing countries deciding they're not going to sign up for any more of those. I think people are getting fed up with having terms dictated to them, and aren't going to be willing to keep doing it.

Re:Let me get this right (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187921)

As usual, the US won't sign an agreement which says a US entity would have to face laws in other countries, but expect they will get access to those laws when convenient.

It's a one-sided arrangement that isn't working for anyone but the US, and I believe you're going to start seeing countries deciding they're not going to sign up for any more of those. I think people are getting fed up with having terms dictated to them, and aren't going to be willing to keep doing it.

This. I think as a European it is high time we wean ourselves from our dependency on the completely untrustworthy U.S.. Yes, we'll have to pull our fingers out of our asses and create a common EU foreign and defence policy that actually deserves the name (and we just may have to give the UK the boot), but I think in the long run that's better than depending on the pathological liars on the other side of the Atlantic who can only be trusted to violate any treaty they sign before the ink is even dry.

To any offended Americans: I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Americans don't fit the above description, but when all is said and done it is your government, operating in your name. If you don't like your reputation dragged through the mud, elect a better government.

Re:Let me get this right (4, Informative)

Psyborgue (699890) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187725)

France too [lemonde.fr] . It was reported in Le Monde this morning but hasn't hit the international press yet in full force. Here [thelocal.fr] is an English article from a local French paper. Apparently the whole assembly (congress) knew about it and was on board.

In other words... (1)

JMJimmy (2036122) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187393)

The equivalent of recalling an ambassador for the "intelligence" community.

Re:In other words... (-1, Offtopic)

Microsoft YES (2973135) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187409)

Microsoft? Microsoft!

Contients? (0, Flamebait)

moronoxyd (1000371) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187401)

"whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents"

I wasn't aware that the EU is a continent. So far I thought it's just an organization of some 20 states from one continent, leaving out a few other states from the same continent.

And the USA isn't a continent either: Canada would likely object, and Hawaii might, too.

Re:Contients? (-1, Offtopic)

Microsoft YES (2973135) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187439)

Microsoft? Microsoft. Microsoft!

Re:Contients? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187545)

This is proof that Microsoft engages in unethical behavior.

Re:Contients? (1)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187771)

We didn't have that already?

Re:Contients? (1)

cold fjord (826450) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187479)

I'm curious - how many people did you think were really going to be confused by that, keeping in mind it was a politician speaking and they are prone to use symbolic language?

Re:Contients? (1)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187793)

And moronoxyd takes the lead for the daily pedants award.
But the race is still early, who will knock the front-runner out of place?
Stay tuned!

Dear Pedant Troll (1)

tomxor (2379126) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187813)

<pedantry> "Continent" is an ambiguous word, it's explicit meaning can only be derived through association with one of the defining conventions. Also the non-"member states" are known as countries. EU !== US </pedantry>

Given that "continent" in the least strict sense just means very large land mass, it's not much of a stretch to loosely describe the EU and US as two continents given the proportion of land or definition of continent they occupy (Europe, Americas).

Re:Contients? (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187853)

So far I thought it's just an organization of some 20 states from one continent,

28 at the last count.

(A real pain for school kiddies - each time they learn how many countries there are in the EU it changes).

Can we get Pakistan to stop providing data? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187413)

That would interfere with their trade in nuclear secrets, the money laundering for the remaining Taliban and Al Queda refugees holed up there and stop pretending that they're an ally in the "war on terror" as they carefully play both sides against the middle to handle so much of the spy traffic there.

Or the EU could just follow the Pakistan lead and make all the data they provide fake, while they sell yet *another* set of data under the table, that is also fake.

Harmless? (-1, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187429)

Well, it looks like Snowden's actions continue to bear fruit in harming both the US and its allies. I suppose the US could start exposing the spying of various European countries occurring in the US as a "teachable moment." There is plenty of it going on. Of course that would probably result in considerable unpleasantness.

Whomever Snowden's handler is will probably receive a commendation. The Soviets tried for years to split the US and Europe, and never really managed it.

Re:Harmless? (-1, Offtopic)

Microsoft pwns (2973133) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187457)

Microsoft? MS!

Re:Harmless? (5, Insightful)

serviscope_minor (664417) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187487)

Well, it looks like Snowden's actions continue to bear fruit in harming both the US and its allies.

Bull-fucking-shit.

Oh, unless you mean that stopping them from pulling illegal stunts is harm, in which case, fuck you.

What caused harm was the US and UK doing illegal stuff. Do not confuse the messenger with the message.

As a citizen of the UK and therefore EU, I assert that these leaks did good, not harm. How can bringing criminals to account be considered "harmful". How on earth can stopping a massive US over reach in wanting to pile the old haystack every higher with data on EU citizens be considered "harm"?

Re:Harmless? (5, Interesting)

dunkelfalke (91624) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187609)

I second that. There is no harm here, only good. It is long overdue that the EU starts crawling out of the American arse. The only EU country that is an ally to the USA is the UK. Everyone else are more like vassals.

Re:Harmless? (2)

cold fjord (826450) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187749)

That is nonsense. Most European nations are part of NATO [nato.int] and allied with each other, including the US and Canada. If all of Europe were vassal states to the US this wouldn't be an issue, nor would many other things. The fact of the matter is that Europe has long been dependent on the US for filling the gap in Europe's defenses since European nations for the most part don't meet the level of defense spending agreed to by treaty.

Re:Harmless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187657)

How can bringing criminals to account be considered "harmful".

If you are the criminal, you certainly consider it harmful.

Re:Harmless? (3, Insightful)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187941)

Cold fjord (826450) writes "Snowden's handler..." is deceitfully supporting the new official narrative sound bite is that Snowden is a spy as apposed to a whistlblower. This is despite the fact that Snowden fits the very definition of a Whistblower in every respect, with no "grey area" in sight:

This narrative is being repeated by US military propaganda machine, which unfortunately also includes most of the worlds mass media corporations (I just watched a EU news presenter refer to Snowden as a spy in the same breath as feigning outrage over EU diplomat spying by the NSA).

It is unfortunate that shill accounts like cold fjord (826450) are being given increasing airtime on slashdot, with a long list of incorrect, misleading, and downright deceitful stories [slashdot.org] being promoted to the front page in this accounts name (with some infrequent light hearted ones sprinkled I for good cover/measure), all with the same or similar propaganda message. Not to mention the untold number of minion accounts used to harvest and mod up the posts.

My only question is, are the slashdot editors complicit? We have already seen multi million dollar propaganda software is up and running [slashdot.org] to manage accounts like Cold fjord (826450), what is the slashdot moderation system doing to counter such technological advances?

Re:Harmless? (5, Insightful)

msobkow (48369) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187497)

The US harmed itself with it's egregious spying.

All Snowden did is expose the bullshit. He didn't cause the bullshit. That's squarely on the backs of the NSA and the US government's "secret" legislation.

Re:Harmless? (3, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187823)

Yes, but to certain people, it's not that they committed a crime that's the problem, but that it has been reported. The US, and various government agencies, enjoy charging others with crimes...they do not enjoy being charged with crimes themselves...and they react like anyone who has enjoyed privileged immunity to the negatives of their actions for a long period of time, as in, they do not know how to react to being on the other end of the sword, and thus, act like the criminals they've sought to prosecute. It's especially demeaning and humbling to them, as it overturns their own self-image as crusaders of justice ("Wait, we're the villains? That can't be! We're the good guys! You must be the villain!"), as well as forces them to realize that their character assassinations are just that, character assassinations (it's so much easier if the Judge / Jury has never been on the other end of the sword, ever, and thus do not know the effects of even a threat of its use; this makes it easier for the DA to paint an image of a person having criminal mannerisms and behaviors; now they are finding that they've been misled, for much of their lives, about what is and is not evil...and admittedly, that frightens them; what Judge / Jury wishes to admit that they fell for the DA's theatrics, time and time again? Or that innocents were sold into slavery, executed, or otherwise imprisoned on their watch, and with their gracious consent?).

Snowden is not hated because he 'betrayed' the US in any sense of the word, but because he showed people that the US has a dark underbelly. The people copping the 'betrayal / traitor' talk are the people who are afraid...they don't want to be seen not taughting the official story line; keep your head down, repeat the lies that you are told, believe them if you have to, and you will get through this...this is their thinking. To that end, there are, perhaps, more than a handful of politicians who are scared sh*tless that their watercooler talk on their cellphones / secure lines is sitting in a special folder on the NSA Director's personal computer; that fear alone is enough to guarantee their loyalty. And that's not accounting for the digital trickery that a thousand or so programmers, under control of the NSA, can achieve if evidence ever needs to be manufactured.

So this is the problem the NSA is faced with: they are breaking the highest laws of the land to achieve their ends. Theft, murder, rape, lies...all of these are considered necessary in the course of their actions. And no one is willing to tell them "Give it a miss."

Re:Harmless? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187499)

So it's not harmless solely because the US is getting called out on it's international bullshit after it has been revealed?

Re:Harmless? (4, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187507)

Not like this. Only the US and its technology companies have the presense and ubiquity to pull something off at this level and scale.

These are reasons to dump Microsoft and Cisco ASAP. Additionally, to begin looking much more carefully at all US products including cars and aircraft. They should all be treated with suspicion at this point.

Re:Harmless? (0)

cold fjord (826450) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187675)

Another wonderful example. A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe. Well, remember to send your annual thank you cards to Putin for the natural gas, and hope you stay on friendly terms with Russia while and after they finish rearming. You know they are rehabilitating Stalin, right?

Re:Harmless? (3, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187825)

The US government has tainted just about everything it touches. In situations like these, a wise person would be more interested in integrity than the pain of change.

Can US based technologies be trusted knowing the things we know? I'm not asking if there are "better alternatives." I'm asking if, knowing what we know today, you have 100% trust in US technology products.

As for better alternatives? There are. Free alternatives. The REAL problem is the pain of transition. And seriously. Pain of transition pales in comparison to the pain of other things to come while we use the tainted and compromised products like confused addicts.

Re:Harmless? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187827)

Another wonderful example. A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe.

If the alternative is to get spied on then a massive trade war at least works out better for Europe. The best option would naturally have been if it was possible to trust US products with your information but when that no longer is the case then a massive IT transition is a better option.

It is a bit like choosing between a frontal collision or driving off the road. Neither alternative is a good one but one is clearly better than the other.
Remember, the best alternative is not always a good alternative but when you are in a shitty situation you still have to choose the lesser evil.

Re:Harmless? (1)

jkflying (2190798) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187839)

A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe.

More Linux development. Awesome.

You know they are rehabilitating Stalin, right?

OK, now you're just sounding stupid.

Re:Harmless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187935)

Again BS. Typical US propaganda: "What would become of you without our protection, hmm? You really want the Big Putin Cock instead? Now suck deeper."

Re:Harmless? (1)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187531)

I suppose the US could start exposing the spying of various European countries occurring in the US as a "teachable moment." There is plenty of it going on.

Is there? My impression was always that the balance of power in these matters rested very firmly with the US - I'd be quite surprised to hear about a German or Italian spy ring within the US. It's been that way since WW2, there are no European military bases within the USA. However that balance may now begin to shift as trust fades in a way nobody can ignore.

Re:Harmless? (1)

geekymachoman (1261484) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187535)

It's not Snowden's action, it's NSA's action..or Obama, Bush.. whoever approved this.

Also, this will not split US and Europe. Europeans where never really in-love with you Americans anyway, but common roots, religion(you would think it doesn't matter...) and.. economy(money) is keeping US and Europe.. close. Economic reasons for the most part.

Finally.. I don't think that Europe wasn't aware of this happening.

Re:Harmless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187551)

"Whoever", not "whomever". If you want to look like an illiterate idiot, don't try to outdo yourself.

Re:Harmless? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187561)

Lord, I can't tell if this was good troll or not. But leaving that kind of reasoning unchallenged might let unsubtle people accept it as a thought, a "meme", without even realizing it.

So I'll say "Yes, and the rape reports will continue to interfere with the college's NCAA rating and the ability of the fraternities to get the *best* pledges from the wealthiest alumni families. And having their sexcapade victims believed will reduce the manly bonding among the teams and frat houses." And if you don't think that disciplinary committees and college boards don't think this way, then you've never been involved in the closed door meetings. I'm in the midst of this kind of disciplinary action right now in a non-profit organization, and it is *nasty*. I'm saying "if we don't protect the victims of abuse, we don't deserve to have members".

As a citizen of a country that has engaged in, and been caught engaging in this kind of behavior, I'm disgusted at it. If we want a rule of law, and freedom of speech and belief, it has to begin with our own policies. And it's clear that just like the "war on drugs" and every other "war on [political cause]" campaign, it's being used to justify all sorts of governmental abuse and political manipulation at odds with our published, core values. I'm not sure anyone on Slashdot can remember prohibition, but a few of us can remember the anti-Communism campaigns of the 50's and 60's, and far more of us remember the "war on drugs" and its resulting racial division and huge number of people in prison.

This is just the next round of the same policies.

No just the NSA liars (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187667)

New polls show the majority of Americans now think the NSA went too far, so no, not US and its allies, an out of control General who lied to Congress and the EU and kept all of the illegal stuff he was up to secret from everyone, including the legislative branch who WERE LIED TO.

Snowden let Americans find out what the lying toerag was up to, he also let EU see what the lying toerag was up to.

If they choose to end the data sharing agreement I will feel safer in Europe, because when I'm in Europe I get to vote for my leadership and the data protection is done by them. I don't get to vote for an out of control lying General in the USA appointed by Bush and able to hang on by deception.

If I was American, I don't even get to vote for General Alexander, and the people I do get to vote for are lied to by him.

" The Soviets tried for years to split the US and Europe, and never really managed it."

The USA and EU are united, we both have privacy protection and democracy. Putin on the other hand has spoken out defending General Alexanders spying.
So fuck off.

Re:Harmless? (1)

gl4ss (559668) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187691)

Sure you can try to bust our spies.

have fun! can't be done! our number one spy is one Linus Torvalds - that guy has access to source code used on most military bases!

Re:Harmless? (3, Informative)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187695)

Of course that would probably result in considerable unpleasantness.

The unpleasantness goes back decades. Look, here's a Slashdot story [slashdot.org] about the EU investigating it from 1998.

This time around they learned that NSA/CIA is spying on their governments, not just their citizens. That's what they're really tweaked about. They've been complicit in spying on their citizens all along - that's what the 'data sharing' agreements are for.

This is just self-appointed elites getting mad at other self-appointed elites for doing to each other what they do to everybody else. You can put the US or the EU in either the subject or the object there and it still works just fine.

What Snowden did is get the elites' press talking about the extant unpleasantness - fifteen years after the alternate press.

Re:Harmless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187797)

If you have nothing to hide, there is no harm. That's what they have been telling us.
They accuse China of cyber attacking the US and yet it is revealed that US has been actively attacking other countries including China.

US is doing this to itself and all by itself. This is real and not just some propaganda or plants.

Re:Harmless? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187887)

The Soviets tried for years to split the US and Europe, and never really managed it.

Complete BS. It is the US that for years tried (and still tries) to fragment the EU and prevent it from growing too powerful.

Re:Harmless? (1)

oztiks (921504) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187937)

Just a question. Are you a SOPA supporter? If the answer is no then I ask you. Do you think any politician at this point has a remote chance of passing through a SOPA-like bill through any Govt. abreast the Snowden debacle?

Here's some food for thought. The EU has decided to vote against sharing data with the US and you also have Google and other large internet providers seeking to fight FISA restrictions in court so they can show the public untainted numbers in relation to requests made by the NSA.

You may be right, there may be some harm done but harm to who? At this stage the fallout is only affecting the NSA. Should further harm incur who do you believe will suffer?

Time for some Threatre (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187453)

They knew it all along... This "pause" is to show Europeans they still have the power over the government so please don't rebel!
Europe is US's bitch.

Re:Time for some Threatre (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187643)

And US is Israel's bitch, so everyone is Israel's bitch or grand bitch.

It's cute... (1, Troll)

Type44Q (1233630) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187491)

It's cute to see Swede^H^H^H^H^H the EU pretend it has balls and stand up to the Reich^H^H^H^H^H United States. ;)

Face it, guys; the Fascists have already got their One World Government; they've even given it a warm and fuzzy Progressive/Socialist facade that everytbody on both sides of the ocean (whether they love it or hate it) has bought hook, line and sinker.

Re:It's cute... (1)

wmac1 (2478314) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187679)

You found this just now?

US has been putting unilateral sanctions on different countries (like Iran) and forcing every other country to execute the internal laws of the US. Everyone (Japan, Europe, Korea, Turkey, India and even China) is competing to conform with the B.S.

The problem is that every B.S. is fine until it involves us. Then it is not!

Suspended travel (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187519)

Yeah, like this is going to happen. The most affected airlines would be US owned ones. Do you think they will let their trained terriers in the US Govt. allow that? Can you calculate the odds between zero and none?

Kettle = Black (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187547)

We spy on them, they spy on us.. Everyone spies on everyone else, get real.

Re:Kettle = Black (1)

ISoldat53 (977164) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187593)

I wonder how much of the information the US collected was industrial intelligence and found it's way to companies like Boeing?

Re:Kettle = Black (1)

gl4ss (559668) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187701)

I wonder how much of the information the US collected was industrial intelligence and found it's way to companies like Boeing?

possibly plenty. which is at the gist of the issue - eu had been providing banking data which could be used to deduce corporate contracts.

not only that but according to US legislation they were even free to give it to any party they wanted since NSA can do whatever they want with "foreign intelligence".

Re:Kettle = Black (1)

spartacus_prime (861925) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187623)

Spying on civilians that pose no threat to the United States (to say nothing of spying on American citizens) is immoral, if not illegal.

Re:Kettle = Black (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187875)

Spying on civilians that pose no threat to the United States (to say nothing of spying on American citizens) is immoral, if not illegal.

Strange way to express oneself.
It is not even a gray zone, it is clearly illegal and highly immoral.

Evidently... (4, Insightful)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187565)

Evidently, the US doesn't need the data sharing agreements. They seem to be pretty good at getting the data they want with or without any agreements.

Re:Evidently... (4, Interesting)

tsa (15680) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187637)

Indeed, so we will have to do something with more impact, like not buying any US fighter planes anymore. That JSF is expensive rubbish anyway, so that's a double win for the EU. Bit of course nothing like those will happen. The lap dog will yap a few times, growl a bit and then curl up in the US's lap again.

Re:Evidently... (4, Insightful)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187779)

Indeed, so we will have to do something with more impact, like not buying any US fighter planes anymore. That JSF is expensive rubbish anyway, so that's a double win for the EU. Bit of course nothing like those will happen. The lap dog will yap a few times, growl a bit and then curl up in the US's lap again.

You might want to be careful about that. If you cut off the US military-industrial complex, they might find another way to secure their funding, like start another needless war. They're already salivating with what's going on in Egypt right now.

Good riddens (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187587)

We are far to extended anyway and need to be more of an isolationist. AND secure that damned border while we are at it.

The only way to teach the police statesome respect (4, Insightful)

trifish (826353) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187611)

Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.

Re:The only way to teach the police statesome resp (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187753)

Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.

But the US has Guns and bases in europe. How I wish the europeans would grow a pair of balls and kick the americans out of europe. Sixth fleet go home. No more american nuclear submarines stationed in Sardinia. No more bases in Germany, Italy and Spain, Turkey, and the UK. We also need to rediscuss what NATO is about and why the hell we're spending money on this cold war era relic.

Re:The only way to teach the police statesome resp (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187759)

Thats funny. From the place that tried to exterminate Jews just a few decades ago, and to this day continues to say they need to be exterminated so the Palistinians will be happy.

I don't think anyone in the EU can stand on any high ground when it comes to morality. Not that the US government can either, but at least the US government isn't trying to exterminate millions of people or helping those who are.

Re:The only way to teach the police statesome resp (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187811)

You're a paranoid idiot.

Re:The only way to teach the police statesome resp (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187819)

That's some remarkably racist shit coming from a slave owner.

A constitutional amendment (2)

onyxruby (118189) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187649)

The US needs a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy.

Nevermind the NSA conspiracy theories, the corps are already doing it almost everything and what they aren't doing the cops are.

Nothing else can stop the march of technology that can and is wholesale systematically slaughtering our privacy. Technology makes it possible to systematically monitor your every move from the time you leave your house to the time return and every interaction you make when you go online, every phone call, instant message, email and mailed letter.

Frankly I can't blame the Euro's for withholding the data, we have jack for data privacy protection, nevermind the whole NSA bit. Almost none of our data has to be encrypted and our standards for protecting data are a joke. We collect everything, dispose of almost nothing and sell or rent it all to the highest bidder. sigh...

Re:A constitutional amendment (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187837)

.... because those constitutional articles and ammendments about unreasonable search and seizure, habeas corpus, and presumption of innocence worked so well ....
I think the tangible effect of an amendment would be approximately zero.

Right set of circumstances (1)

Bert64 (520050) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187663)

Other countries would be monitoring communications in just the same way if they had the opportunity to do so...

By making use of and becoming dependent on US products and US services you walked right into it, and the US government doesn't even pretend to offer any rights to foreigners located outside its borders. The constitution is for US citizens.

If you don't like being spied on by the US government, don't use products from companies under their jurisdiction.

OK, but when will it stop? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187681)

Normally, when someone gets caught doing something that is really, really wrong, stopping doing it is the first response. However, the discussion so far has focussed on some random details of the systematic warrantless wiretapping, not on how and when it is going to stop.

So again my question: when will the U.S. and other 'free' countries stop spying on innocent civilians, companies and governments?

Side effects (4, Insightful)

eulernet (1132389) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187703)

There is an interesting side effect about this data problem: the cloud.

Currently, the biggest cloud providers are based in US.
But due to the NSA disclosure, most companies cannot afford to give their data to outside countries, especially since it's now clear that NSA spied european companies economically.

So local cloud providers will quickly emerge, and this will directly impact Google and Amazon's services.
US clouds cannot be trusted anymore.

And another.. (4, Insightful)

SlashDread (38969) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187785)

Very luke-warm response from the EU politicians. France will "consider suspending trade negotiations for 2 weeks", The EU will now "suspend data sharing talks". Well 2 big woopdiedoo's. The real trade negotiations are well hidden from the EU PUBLIC (Not he NSA of course :), and the snoopers from the NSA already have our data, there is no need to share. We already give it!

THATS the real issue for Europeans people... WTF don't our politicians CARE about this? That scares me more then the whole snooping.

First p0st (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,27 days | (#44187817)

the hard drive 7o about who can rant

So Supend the Flights (4, Insightful)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187871)

If the EU stops providing the data, and the U.S. blocks flights, how long do you think it will last. The U.S. will realize how much they are being harmed by their tantrum and be forced to stop it. Sure, the EU will suffer a few problems too, but I would think it is more closely linked to other countries in Eurasia and Africa than with North America. America is more reliant on connections to other continents (requiring a lot of air travel) than is Europe. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope America lets its business leaders make it a true second rate nation by outsourcing everything. Then they won't have as much weight to throw around. In any case, it's time to stand up to their bullying. The white hat they think they wear has turned dirty grey, at least. It's amazing how treating your friends like enemies can change opinions.

Doesn't Change Anything (4, Funny)

RivenAleem (1590553) | 1 year,27 days | (#44187967)

I had no intention of going to the US in the first place. I won't go there as long as the fingerprinting, cancer machines and other general invasions of privacy are cut out. It's a shame, as I'd love to do a coast to coast road trip in a lovely rented Cadillac.

(don't get me started on the amount of information my Polish wife has to provide the US embassy just to get a visa)

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?
or Connect with...

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>