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India To Overtake US On Number of Developers By 2017

Soulskill posted 1 year,20 days | from the america-projected-to-maintain-lead-in-professional-Whopper-eaters dept.

Businesses 157

dcblogs writes "There are about 18.2 million software developers worldwide, a number that is due to rise to 26.4 million by 2019, a 45% increase, says Evans Data Corp. in its latest Global Developer Population and Demographic Study. Today, the U.S. leads the world in software developers, with about 3.6 million. India has about 2.75 million. But by 2018, India will have 5.2 million developers, a nearly 90% increase, versus 4.5 million in the U.S., a 25% increase though that period, Evans Data projects. India's software development growth rate is attributed, in part, to its population size, 1.2 billion, and relative youth, with about half the population under 25 years of age. Rapid economic growth is fueling interest in development. India's services firms hire, in many cases, thousands of new employees each quarter. Consequently, IT and software work is seen as clear path to the middle class for many of the nation's young. For instance, in one quarter this year, Tata Consultancy Services added more than 17,000 employees, gross, bringing its total headcount to 263,600. In the same quarter of 2010, the company had about 150,000 workers."

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They Took our Jobs! (0)

thepike (1781582) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242703)

Re:They Took our Jobs! (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243357)

As long as the US has Nerf superiority, we will rule the cubicles. They can take our plush toys, but they will never take our freedom... management did that a long time ago.

Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (3, Interesting)

OverlordQ (264228) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242711)

~nt~

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242777)

This exactly. What are all these developers doing? I don't see an explosion of Indian-made software that matches these numbers.

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (5, Funny)

aardvarkjoe (156801) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242945)

What are all these developers doing?

In my experience, they're ensuring that U.S. developers have poorly-designed software to fix.

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243537)

Quantity, not Quality

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (5, Funny)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243713)

This is much incorrect! Indian designers are most making with excellent design and superiorest documentation! Their English is excellent handsome!

Re: Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44244093)

I see what you did there.

Re: Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (2)

FuegoFuerte (247200) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245963)

I am not knowing what is it wrong with that?

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (4, Informative)

pspahn (1175617) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242947)

That's because the software they help write has already been branded by a start up in LA or New York.

The stuff you do see them building is plugins and modules for various platforms where they can take the idea of another developer, add a new logo and what not, and repackage it for sale as their code.

I have worked with many different "One Step Checkout" for the Magento platform that were developed in India. They are all basically copies of each other, with only one version (developed I believe in Ukraine) standing out as being solidly developed and easy to work with.

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (1)

sasquatch989 (2663479) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243715)

Having lived there for a short while, this seems to be on par with just about everything India produces. India is no threat to the US

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243689)

In my experience most software is Indian-made, you just didn't realize it because it has an American brand name on it.

(also, most of the comments on this thread seem pretty racist to me)

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (0)

RightwingNutjob (1302813) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245451)

(also, most of the comments on this thread seem pretty racist to me)

Sigh...that didn't take long.

My dear fellow, you need to comment out the hard-coded link in your head between disparaging comments about nations and disparaging comments about ethnicities and replace it with some logic in compliance with best practices developed in, among other places, the American software industry.

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (4, Informative)

Kjella (173770) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243861)

You don't see what's happening on the back-end and they don't want you do know. Most consulting companies are now a shim layer of local people who outsource the actual coding, that's at least how Accenture, Deloitte, PWC, Ernst & Young, KPMG, Capgemini, McKinsey etc. operate. Other big companies just go directly to Indian consulting companies like Tata or get their own local staff in India. Locally, they still have the same brands, the same "local" image but in reality they're getting Indians to take over piece by piece. In-house development is slowly being phased out, in reality what's left is a sales front like a sophisticated version of Walmart. I was at an interview for a position like that, I'd be the only local resource and leader keeping up appearances while eight people in India would be doing all the actual work. Didn't get the job and in retrospect glad I didn't.

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (5, Insightful)

Rob Y. (110975) | 1 year,20 days | (#44244409)

It's worse that just the offshoring aspect.

When my company decided to outsource, they fired pretty much all the local developers except for one 'business analyst' who knows the code and how it works. That wasn't me, but they also kept me on as a 'consultant' to the outsourcers so something still gets done and the whole project can be viewed as something other than a total failure. The Indian devs were not great, but I figured that at least they'd be captive. Prior to outsourcing the company had taken to hiring (cheap) young programmers, and (surprise!) had a retention problem. But Indian programmers are 'happy just to have a job', right? Wrong - if anything, they're more mobile than their American counterparts, because the big outsourcing firms want it that way. They're constantly moving people off of our project, and bringing in new people to learn it all on our dime.

So the one expected productivity benefit is not there - but it's even worse. Since these guys don't hang around, there is no next generation coming up with the in-depth knowledge of these products to become the 'business analysts' and senior devs to replace us. So when I and the other guy who are still sustaining the whole contraption retire (and we're both older than 55), the whole thing sinks. Prior to outsourcing, there were other dev's with seniority that could've stepped in to take our places.

In today's world of perverse incentives, though, this isn't a 'problem'. The company is owned by a private equity firm that expects to dump it long before that final crash. But if I were a private equity firm looking to buy a piece of crap like this, I'd certainly ask what plans exist to produce the next generation of senior techs to keep the place going. As it is, it's musical chairs, at some point a buyer will get stuck with no chairs left.

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44245645)

This is nonsense. All of the firms you listed have very large american presences, and can't do without them.

The thing is, they fire the bottom 20% of americans and replace them with the top 20% of Indians. Its not a bad choice.

Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44245235)

Indeed...

n * suck = SUCK

College Costs and Preceived Value (4, Interesting)

gpronger (1142181) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242755)

Could part of this be the cost of college here in the States? Also, would be the question, that a decade ago, a position in software development was seen by HS age individuals as strong career move; is that still the case (I think not).

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (4, Insightful)

SirGarlon (845873) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242833)

I am not convinced the US has a problem. TFA projects the number of developers in the US will grow by 25% over the same 5-year period, which is pretty darned robust. That growth looks feeble only by comparison to India.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (2)

Rockoon (1252108) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242897)

Indeed. How about letting us know when India has 400% as many developers as the United States, which is just about an equal proportion of the population.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

SirGarlon (845873) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242925)

I am not convinced the US has a problem.

Edit: I am not convinced the US has a problem with *the growth in number of developers.* It has lots of other problems. :-)

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

roc97007 (608802) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243195)

I am not convinced the US has a problem.

Edit: I am not convinced the US has a problem with *the growth in number of developers.* It has lots of other problems. :-)

One of which is that a company can save loads of money by offshoring all their development to some place where they can pay them in bottle caps.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

roc97007 (608802) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243227)

Should have been "one of which is *the perception* that..."

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243475)

The Capitol Wasteland?

"Yeah, I'll do your coding job for 1000 caps and those 30 rounds of .44 caliber ammunition"

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243775)

India isn't cheap anymore is the problem. China is quickly becoming not cheap as well. American developers are absolutely cheaper then Taiwanese, South Korean, or Japanese developers. Maybe you can start outsourcing to Nigeria or Pakistan if you want ultra cheap labor for your programming needs.

or bring it back to the US to Mississippi or Alabama. The people are dirt poor, not very well educated, and still have the accent problem, but at least the time zone and payment issue is easier to deal with.

(I am a developer in MS, and I am not sure if I should be happy or sad that my Indian Counterparts have a better quality of life then I do)

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (3, Interesting)

roc97007 (608802) | 1 year,20 days | (#44244167)

India isn't cheap anymore is the problem. China is quickly becoming not cheap as well. American developers are absolutely cheaper then Taiwanese, South Korean, or Japanese developers. Maybe you can start outsourcing to Nigeria or Pakistan if you want ultra cheap labor for your programming needs.

or bring it back to the US to Mississippi or Alabama. The people are dirt poor, not very well educated, and still have the accent problem, but at least the time zone and payment issue is easier to deal with.

(I am a developer in MS, and I am not sure if I should be happy or sad that my Indian Counterparts have a better quality of life then I do)

If I'm understanding this, one possible conclusion is that offshoring is to a certain extent self-leveling. Offshoring your development causes prices in that market to increase, and prices in local markets to decrease. At some point offshoring no longer makes economic sense, and there might be a general tendency to migrate back to dirt-poor onshore communities, paying them in cigarette wrappers instead of bottle caps, I guess. And so the wrecking ball swings back and forth.

In the meantime, someone local at the company has to deal with the ramifications of code generated on milk crates in a lean-to made of roped together tin sheets.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

pspahn (1175617) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242985)

The US will still have plenty of developer jobs, though, it may get retitled to reflect the fact that the work done in India is development. The work done in the US is simply refactoring, adding legible comments, fixing poorly named variables, etc.

The last few months of my previous job were basically nothing more than fixing bugs introduced by the Indian team. Good training I suppose, but not my cup of tea.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243099)

"Hi, my name is Typical American Developer, and my job title is Shit Shoveler. I shovel the shit code and try to make a sandcastle with it."

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (2)

ArsonSmith (13997) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243037)

India will grow 90% over the next 5 years, almost double. At that rate in in 45-50 years everyone in India will be a software developer.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

FuegoFuerte (247200) | 1 year,20 days | (#44246041)

Guess what... a lot of that is probably people on H1-B visas, who will very often work more hours for less pay. It's not that the number of American developers will grow by 25%, simply that the number of developers in the US will grow by 25%.

Well CS is not IT and trades / apprenticeship / te (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243103)

Well CS is not IT and trades / apprenticeship / tech schools get over looked.

As well loads of fluff and filler classes.

To many people are going to collgle and colleges are turning out people with skills gaps.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243467)

Could part of this be the cost of college here in the States?

I think the percentage of college students who major in a technical field such as CS or engineering has been decreasing.

Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (3, Informative)

AuMatar (183847) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243535)

And most of them made horrible developers. There's basic bits of theory and knowledge that most (not all, but most) self taught and high school educated developers never learn. The move to requiring a CS degree wasn't due to degree inflation, it was to get more knowledgeable developers.

They have already overtaken on shittines of devs (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242759)

If you want to catastrophically ruin your project, outsource it to India.

"The requirements called for an application that did not work and is impossible to maintain, sir."

"Have you tried unplugging the computer, and then plugging it back in?"

Re:They have already overtaken on shittines of dev (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242895)

Looking at you, Bethesda.

It's all relative (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242769)

I could call myself a car mechanic. But just because I can change my oil and brakes, doesn't mean I'm doing it efficiently or even properly. So while they can claim there's that many software developers, the percentage of them that are competent is probably quite low.

Re:It's all relative (4, Insightful)

lxs (131946) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243223)

That's exactly what the people of Detroit said about Japanese car manufacturers way back in the 1970s.

Re:It's all relative (3, Interesting)

ebno-10db (1459097) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243461)

That's exactly what the people of Detroit said about Japanese car manufacturers way back in the 1970s.

No, it isn't. What American car manufacturers said (actually more in the 60's and than 70's) is that the Japanese and VW imports were small low-powered cars that would only appeal to a small (and not very profitable) segment of the American market. They generally did not disparage the design or manufacture, just that they wouldn't appeal to many Americans (toy cars). By the mid to late 70's that was obviously nonsense, with the Japanese market share increasing and the Japanese going up-market. The increasing price of gas in the 70's also made small cars much more attractive.

Re:It's all relative (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243727)

Not to mention these days they simply destroy anything in the performance realm.....

Nothing under $40,000 can touch a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution on a race track.... (Unless the track has few turns of course).

For instance in 2008 Ford was selling a 4.6 liter V8 Mustang making 305 horsepower and 305ft/lbs of torque for $35,000 that hit 0-60 in 5.7.
Mitsubishi in 2008 was selling a turbocharged 2.0 liter I4 making 291 horsepower and 300ft/lbs of torque for $35,000 that hit 0-60 in 4.7, with full-time AWD, four doors, and a better 1.0g skidpad rating compared to Fords 0.8g.

For $120 you get a cable that provides full ECU control. The Ford requires a $300 unit just to load a tune, $600 for the software to build a tune.
Bolt on capability leaves the Mitsubishi easily able to 330-380whp on the stock turbocharger. The Mustang with full exhaust and bolt ons will only put down about 330whp on that motor. (No forced induction, $5K+ for a kit, where as the Mitsu comes factory turbocharged)

The Mitsubishi has four wheel drive, active center differential, and yaw control (specifically for cornering performance) and the Ford has a solid stick rear end.

The Evo during the lighning lap in 2010, ran within 2 seconds of the V8 Mustang 5.0 while weighing 74lbs less, down 121 horsepower.

Conclusion? Americans hate 4 cylinders, reminded of guys in slow hondas, while ignoring the better performing Evo and STI to buy a 2 wheel drive tank with less handling, mpg, traction, horsepower potential..... It's rather amusing currently to watch a four wheel drive 2.0 modded to 450 horsepower lay waste to a 660hp GT500 that just spins the wheels even at 80mph.

Nothing beats power AND traction. Americans still haven't figured that out yet.... (I own an Evo and paid $41K for it and destroy V8's all the time yet Americans hate my car)

How was this data calculated? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242771)

The article doesnt say how it came about this data.

Re:How was this data calculated? (5, Funny)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242797)

They don't know either, the survey was outsourced to India.

Suspicious! (was:How was this data calculated?) (2)

davecb (6526) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242991)

Not too long ago The Economist noted the lack of new graduates in India to take up the development jobs the outsourcing companies had on offer. Comments from an individual outsourcer seemed to support that...

I'd take this one with a mine of salt, and speculate that by "developer" they mean "someone who wants to be a developer", without consideration of whether they have experience or training.

--dave

Re:Suspicious! (was:How was this data calculated?) (1)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | 1 year,20 days | (#44246085)

Not too long ago The Economist noted the lack of new graduates in India to take up the development jobs the outsourcing companies had on offer. Comments from an individual outsourcer seemed to support that...

I'd take this one with a mine of salt, and speculate that by "developer" they mean "someone who wants to be a developer", without consideration of whether they have experience or training.

--dave

It doesn't help much to have a population of 1 billion people if 90% of them are subsistence farmers with caste and class that make it difficult or even impossible to even get into college.

It's probably not quite that bad, and upward mobility in India has, I think, improved a lot these days - in part, no doubt to the fact that a lot of people have expanded into computer technology.

Nevertheless, comparing raw population figures or projected population growth between the US and India is not something I'd recommend doing.

Will they stop invading white countries then? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242775)

Or are they not needed 'back home' any more...

software development (0)

Ratan Gharami (2979397) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242787)

Could part of this be the cost of college here in the States? Also, would be the question, that a decade ago, a position in software development was http://computersbds.blogspot.com/ [slashdot.org] ">please visit it

India Has More People Than USA! News @ 11! (4, Insightful)

Z_A_Commando (991404) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242805)

When one country has a billion more people than another country, what do you expect? A better comparison would be the percentage of the population for each country who are considered developers.

Re:India Has More People Than USA! News @ 11! (1)

pr0fessor (1940368) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243139)

Yes as for percentage by population the US would be more than double. Also it can't all be outsource they have to be developing something for their own 1.2 billion possible consumers.

Re:India Has More People Than USA! News @ 11! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243187)

As I have experenced then we will have a bigger booming software market in usa, that is mostly fixing off-shore shit that don't work.

Re:India Has More People Than USA! News @ 11! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44244949)

Precisely. India is known for corruption, and generally SHIT programming work. Might have something to do with the fact that it's full of INDIANS - who aren't the same as white people.

What about 'precious' Africa? Has it got ANY programmers?

Re:India Has More People Than USA! News @ 11! (1)

dadelbunts (1727498) | 1 year,20 days | (#44244275)

Thats the same thing i was thinking as well. It seems pretty logical that a country with a much larger population is going to have more people working in a certain field, simply because they have more people.

"Tata Consultancy" giggle (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242809)

Now that is just funny

indian programmer domination ... (1)

swframe (646356) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242839)

I'm a little concerned about the growing "influence" of Indian programmers. First, like all groups, when they are the majority they can become biased against others (i.e. non-indian). Second, they are willing to work for less, so they can push down salaries; just look the consulting rates these days.
To be fair, it has been a pleasure to work with them, for them etc. I don't see any alternative to employing them. I don't want them to go away. But there is a cultural adjustment that I feel is necessary but doesn't happen when they are majority in a software organization.

Re:indian programmer domination ... (1)

Trimaxion (2933647) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243331)

Second, they are willing to work for less, so they can push down salaries; just look the consulting rates these days..

What rates are you observing these days?

Re:indian programmer domination ... (2)

swframe (646356) | 1 year,20 days | (#44244593)

I used to see rates in the $100/hr+ in the SF bayarea. When I consulted in the dot com bubble, it was expected that consulting rates would be double a full-time salary. Not any more.
Recently, I've seen rates in the $50/hr to $60/hr range. But my 27 year-old friend has a full-time bayarea job that pays $180k so it makes no sense to take a $50/hr contract without benefits, vacation, etc.
The connection to 'Indian programmer' is that most of the recruiters I run into are indian and state strongly that a $100/hr+ rate is unrealistic. I suspect that is the case given the number of Indian programmers who are happy with $50/hr.
(I am consulting now but my long-term employer lets me work overseas so I travel a lot and I am willing to accept a lower rate in exchange for that perk).

Re:indian programmer domination ... (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243487)

it has been a pleasure to work with them

Who is them? Are you talking about immigrants, H-1B's, or people in India? This discussion has everything to do with location and economics, and nothing to do with ethnicity.

Re:indian programmer domination ... (1)

swframe (646356) | 1 year,20 days | (#44244913)

"They" are Indians on H-1B/immigrants that work at major software companies like google, oracle, yahoo, etc. I'm also not concerned/worried with their ethnicity or their culture. It is truly a pleasure to work with the programmers from India that I've met. I've, however, noticed that they can form work teams/groups in which there are no non-indian members (or no non-indian lead developers). Maybe it is because there are few non-indian developers applying for a position in their group but I suspect it is more than that. I've also noticed, in my conversations with them, that they feel that non-indian developers are not as smart as indian developers. In fact, there was a article a few years ago about India based software companies having to lower their standards to accept non-indian developers. I suspect that the Indian programmers I've worked with, have on average a higher CompSci GPA than the american educated software developer population because the H-1B visa selection process means we get the brightest people on average. At google, there there was a time when it was felt that the fact that most Indian people speak 3+ languages also meant (correlated) that they had higher IQs than the average amercian educated developer. When those India developers form a team/group, they can get to a state where they don't feel a non-indian developer is good enough to join them. It is not a social, ethnic, cultural conflict in that they are very respectful and enjoyable to work with. But I don't think the minority non-indian developer in majority indian group will not get the same opportunities as the indian members. This was probably true when there were large concentrations of white software developers in the top software companies. I am just curious if others have noticed this (It wouldn't be the first time I got it wrong :)

Re:indian programmer domination ... (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245043)

I've, however, noticed that they can form work teams/groups in which there are no non-indian members (or no non-indian lead developers). ... I've also noticed, in my conversations with them, that they feel that non-indian developers are not as smart as indian developers. ... When those India developers form a team/group, they can get to a state where they don't feel a non-indian developer is good enough to join them. ... I don't think the minority non-indian developer in majority indian group will not get the same opportunities as the indian members.

What you're describing is prejudice and discrimination, plain and simple. Were a white American man to even hint at doing something like that, he'd have his head handed to him (and deservedly so). I think such a standard of conduct should apply to everyone.

Time to fight back! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44242891)

We need to start training snake charmers, magic carpet makers, sitar players and yogis. That way we can outsource to the outsourcers!

So they are are going to add 2-3 million more? (1)

CQDX (2720013) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242933)

So that's 2-3 more million "developers" that don't know what they are doing. Seriously, how many of these new so-called developers really know what they are doing and can code with a passion as opposed to those that are in it just to get a paycheck and hope they can CYA wrt to bugs.

Re:So they are are going to add 2-3 million more? (1)

i kan reed (749298) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243057)

And that's unique to India, how?

Re:So they are are going to add 2-3 million more? (2)

CQDX (2720013) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243183)

It isn't unique to India. Never said that. But it does become a problem from my end (the US) because India is pretty much the out-sourcing capital so if/when my company decides to shift some development and testing over there, I have to deal with their sub-par work.

Re:So they are are going to add 2-3 million more? (1)

spiffmastercow (1001386) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243345)

And that's unique to India, how?

It's not, it's just much more prevalent in India because the culture there has not attached a negative social stigma to being a tech worker.

You get what you pay for... (3, Informative)

Old VMS Junkie (739626) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242983)

As long as they're willing to work for peanuts, regardless of the crap they produce, US CEOs will keep hiring them. I'm watching an outsourcing fiasco in progress at my company. The "smartsourced" apps are blowing up like crazy and executive management screams at the PMs and middle management, neither of which wanted these barely-trained, fundamentally incompetent programmers to begin with.

Re:You get what you pay for... (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243623)

neither of which wanted these barely-trained, fundamentally incompetent programmers to begin with.

Err.. If YOU hire someone who cant perform a particular job, its YOUR fault, not the fault of the person who was hired. There is no one else to blame but you Americans. You have a shitty process in place to determine competency. Makes me wonder how how YOU got hired too. Maybe you're shitty and are right where you belong.

Depressing wages further (1)

EMG at MU (1194965) | 1 year,20 days | (#44242993)

Our outsourcing "partners" in India cost about .25 of what an average American developer would cost. They earn far less as the outsourcing pimp takes their cut. I don't predict that the amount of developer jobs will grow at the same pace as the amount of developers. Therefore I predict the affect will be that wages are suppressed further, probably resulting in poorer quality of developers.

Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (1, Insightful)

goruka (1721094) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243009)

Every time there is a bit of news about H1Bs or immigration on tech sites, most Americans display their usual xenophobia and blame immigrants for the lack of jobs in the US.

At the same time, every single of them fails to realize that there isn't even a need for foreigners to be in America to take away their jobs.

There are plenty of countries with great universities, which are either free or where students don't have to pay with their life for tuition. India is one of the most extreme examples, but places like eastern Europe or South America are also full of software factories that work for American companies and clients.
The quantity over quality argument is also moot, foreigners not only keep improving but their low cost allows them to make mistakes while still being more affordable than Americans.

So, for the Americans here, the question you should be asking yourself, next time you hear news about H1B and immigration is not whether or not you want your job taken by someone else, but if you would rather to have that people live, contribute and keep most the industry in your country, or not.

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (1)

sapgau (413511) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243329)

And how is this related to the quality of programmers on ANY country?

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243659)

The quantity/quality argument is not moot. It's just not as cut and dried as everyone seems to believe.

I've worked with programmers from India that are good. Damned good, in fact. I've also had to clean up shitty outsourced code from some Indian dev sweatshop. I've worked with American programmers that are good, too. I've also had to clean up shitty code from "cowboy" Americans that was completely unfit for purpose.

There are good and bad programmers from all walks of life. We need to stop blaming India or China or Russia or wherever, and start blaming people who are incompetent. Starting with the shitty developers, up through the ranks of shitty HR that hire shitty developers, and all the way up to shitty management that allows shitty HR to hire shitty developers. Name and shame. Post bad "recommendations" to LinkedIn profiles of these nitwits. As in, "I recommend you don't hire this incompetent boob." This needs to be done without any regard for where they were born and raised or the color of their skin. That's what "meritocracy" means, after all.

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (4, Insightful)

ebno-10db (1459097) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243669)

Every time there is a bit of news about H1Bs or immigration on tech sites, most Americans display their usual xenophobia and blame immigrants for the lack of jobs in the US.

Dismissing legitimate economic concerns as "xenophobia" is either a false assumption on your part, or a common but cheap trick. Sorry, ain't buying it.

At the same time, every single of them fails to realize that there isn't even a need for foreigners to be in America to take away their jobs.

True only to a certain extent. Being on-site, meeting face-to-face, and understanding more about a customer and a culture so that you can be more than a code monkey, are still useful.

The quantity over quality argument is also moot, foreigners not only keep improving but their low cost allows them to make mistakes while still being more affordable than Americans.

Of course "their low cost allows them to make mistakes while still being more affordable than Americans". It's the very fact that they do make so many mistakes that's part of why they're so affordable! If what you meant was that some people will always buy cheap crap, then that's an obvious truism. Whether or not that's penny wise and pound foolish is another story.

As for "foreigners not only keep improving", or more accurately the quality of foreign sourced work keeps improving, I've found just the opposite to be true. I don't know why, or even why the foreign sourced work is often of such poor quality, and I have little interest in debating theories about why. What I do know is that it's true.

would rather to have that people live, contribute and keep most the industry in your country

No, not if it means sacrificing my job for that. Save the "it's good for the country as a whole" garbage for the congressional hearings. Bonus points for honesty if you say "for the good of the American economy we must screw American programmers, IT people and engineers". Really, go ahead and say it, because it won't matter. The hearings are a formality and congress will just vote however the people that bribe them want congress to vote.

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44244637)

The deeper question is "Why is it OK for the rest of the world to be xenophobic when the same is disallowed for the Anglosphere?" There has been a war on the white male since the signing of Hart Celler by LBJ in 1965.

--
You can't handle the truth...because the truth is RACIST!

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (4, Insightful)

ebno-10db (1459097) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245157)

There has been a war on the white male since the signing of Hart Celler by LBJ in 1965.

As a white American man who has been around since the civil rights era, I must say I've never noticed that. If they're waging war against me, they're sure doing a lousy job.

The deeper question is "Why is it OK for the rest of the world to be xenophobic when the same is disallowed for the Anglosphere?"

There is no such deeper question because xenophobia, by or against whomever, has nothing to do with this subject. It's about economics. It's the H-1B proponents who frame it as a xenophobia issue, and thus try to distract from what's really at stake.

BTW, it's not clear how excessive guest workers in a particular field targets white males. It targets Americans in the 99%. Last time I checked though, not all Americans are white, and they're not all male. Get your categories straight.

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44245991)

You must be a Baby Boomer. Sounds like you got your bachelor's degree before Reagan gutted student aid. Minority American males and all females are part of the PROTECTED CLASS. White non-ethnic (those whose pedigree render them unable to qualify for expedited citizenship under the laws of the nation(s) of origin) males are the NON-PROTECTED class. These are expected to exist and compete as INDIVIDUALS ABSOLUTE whereas women and minorities have advocacy groups and a more collectivist worldview.

FTFY

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (0)

goruka (1721094) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245695)

True only to a certain extent. Being on-site, meeting face-to-face, and understanding more about a customer and a culture so that you can be more than a code monkey, are still useful.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Companies don't offshore the code monkeys, they offshore entire experienced teams, including their leadership and creative talent. As I said, India is an extreme, but other locations like South America and Eatern Europe are much more in tune culturally, or time-zone wise.

Of course "their low cost allows them to make mistakes while still being more affordable than Americans". It's the very fact that they do make so many mistakes that's part of why they're so affordable! If what you meant was that some people will always buy cheap crap, then that's an obvious truism.

The only truism here is that you don't have a single clue about how the outsourcing industry works. I was trying to explain that people outside learns and becomes really good, yet still much more affordable than the average american worker. I worked in plenty of companies making products for the US market, and the industry is huge.

I have little interest in debating theories about why. What I do know is that it's true.

You are afraid of something you don't understand, that's from outside your territory, and you used pejoratives such as crap against it. That, my buddy, is a book example of xenophobia.

Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243901)

I often use GURU.com to have work done for US based companies I work for. I hire people from all over the world, including recently India and Romania. I have hired many different people and am usually amazed at how much better these foreign individual communicate, how quick they get the work done, and how easy it is to convey what I want done and for them to understand. The price is always a fraction of what I pay US individuals.

I am a programmer who outsources portions of my own work. It does scare me to think that at some point these companies may eliminate me and go directly to foreign programmers. Hopefully these countries standards of living will increase, bringing their salary in line with the US and others.

Developers? Yeah. Okay. (4, Insightful)

Chas (5144) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243047)

Sorry, the educational system over there is little more than a diploma mill.

The quality of developers over there is somewhere between "bad" and "not qualified to sell slurpees".

Yes, as with any group, there's always the exceptions. A few, here and there, with a knack for doing good, solid work.
But that's just what they are. Exceptions.

Anyone can play baseball/football/soccer/hockey.

A much smaller contingent of the population do it well.

An even smaller contingent of that sub-population do it well enough to warrant getting paid to do it.

Long ago India surpassed the US (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243125)

in the number of shitty programmers.

Hmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243159)

How do you say "Developers! Developers! Developers!" in Hindi or Kannadan?

Re:Hmm (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44244561)

How about Punja^B^\ç
Sikh Error reading drive 3HO: [A]bort [R]etry [I]gnore [F]uddu-panchod! I
Sikh Error reading drive 3HO: [A]bort [R]etry [I]gnore [F]uddu-panchod! F
Found Sonia_Gandhi in LOK_SABHA.EXE [INC]
Found KPS_Gill in HOCKEY_IN.DLL [Murderer]
Found Caste_Inspired_Corruption in NEW_DELI.BIN [ShivSena_BJP_RSS_VHP]
Sangat fault, Kaur dumpedCUT THE WORD 'S'HaltCatchFire!%$!|ó
NO CARRIER

Not trying to pile on.. (4, Interesting)

stillpixel (1575443) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243317)

But, my current experience has been much the same as many here have stated.

Many Indian developers seem to me to lack some critical thinking skills when it comes to working on projects. Perhaps it's a cultural issue that needs to be worked out, but it's like they know how to code.. but there is no thinking going on besides blindly following a written requirement without asking questions or trying to get clarity on something that isn't clear. Instead they code code and code until they are 'done' only to have wasted time coding something that doesn't actually meet the requirement because they didn't ask questions.

But then again.. I am dealing with developers who aren't Indian.. and well they suck too.. but I can't tell if it's their incompetence, their project manager's or just their whole company.

Programmers, not Developers (3, Informative)

Wokan (14062) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243419)

I'm not saying India doesn't have any developers, but I have seen a lot of programming defined as copying and pasting the code of someone else and testing that it "works as required". I couldn't understand why the JavaScript countdown timer we were supplied by an Indian company was written in Spanish until I caught on to how they "fulfilled" their contract obligations. I'm sure a lot of that goes on in every country with programmers (and developers). My point here is that we should be careful how we define developer vs programmer (not to mention the ongoing debates regarding the phrase "software engineer").

If their headhunters are any measure (1)

bsdasym (829112) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243449)

then we have nothing to fear from the developers. I am bombarded with "job offers", usually 3-5 a week, always from Indian people/firms who are completely illiterate. Over the past 5 or so years I've gone from politely declining, to ignoring, to insulting, to now intentionally misleading them and stringing them along just like 419 scammers.

when will I buy my first Indian killer app? (1)

peter303 (12292) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243511)

I probably use some software with Indian work done on it. But I dont recall anything originated and marketed in India. But I expect soemthing to come sometime.

Re:when will I buy my first Indian killer app? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243675)

You probably already have. Most companies have a presence in India.

And databases screeeeeeech to a halt everywhere (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44243741)

And databases screeeeeeech to a halt everywhere under the weight of trying to fit object orientated programming methods into a relational data. I am kidding of course, I do realize there are database developers in India that are much better than me, but I'll be dammed if I have met one yet. Maybe they charge to much? Or they might just be to good to work with me... it's possible... ok maybe likely.

Well sure... (1)

Twizzle4Shizzle (1252100) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243753)

We can double the number of developers here in the US right now... problem is half of them are going to f'in horrible at it. The total number doesn't matter but the quality does.

Is it me or... (1)

OrangeTide (124937) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243863)

are half of these posts thinly veiled racism? I used to get annoyed when people made broad statements that my countrymen are xenophobic, but if that's the persona we use online maybe we deserve the moniker.

Re:Is it me or... (4, Insightful)

betterprimate (2679747) | 1 year,20 days | (#44244799)

It's not racism. It's resentment and entirely justified. From my experience, here's how it grows:

1) Bids and proposals are submitted to American client 2) Middle management of said American client decides to go with lowest bidder (typically from India) 3) Lowest bidder can't satisfy contract due to incompetence 4) 1 year later, project still can't satisfy requirements. 5) American client back peddles to find American developers to fix and complete project 6) American developers review the code... it's a steaming pile of shit. 7) If American developers have sense, they decline the project and quote the client for the whole project

Now, if you're working in-house, the same thing happens except that you can't politely decline the project and are forced to deliver on a steaming pile of shit and you have to have your name attached to garbage.

It's not racism. Developers are objective; if it were good, quality code there wouldn't be any pushback or resentment.

Re:Is it me or... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44246037)

"Racism" is a word used by collectivists and the ruling class to disparage and discredit who must compete as individuals by reason of issues beyond their control (race, creed, color, national origin, etc.)

A big so what... (1)

Steve_Ussler (2941703) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243923)

US developers will ALWAYS have more creativity...that is what counts. Support...India rules. Design/new ideas...USA BABY!

Re:A big so what... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44245793)

US developers will ALWAYS have more creativity...

Why?

India's developers are largely of poor quality (2)

ebusinessmedia1 (561777) | 1 year,20 days | (#44243981)

Once you get outside the realm of graduates from the IIT schools, the quality is not very good. Don't believe me? Go ask almost anyone who has worked with an H1-B software engineer when they first arrived? Add to that the incredible inefficiencies and top-down authoritarian environment of most Indian software shops - independent thinking is not even considered.

Re:India's developers are largely of poor quality (2)

zenyu (248067) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245807)

India today is more akin to Japan in 1945 than Japan in 1975. I've worked with a dozens of Indian developers when some shops in India reported to me. Only a few were worth their salt. With few exceptions those were western trained developers that were forced to go back to India by family obligations. Of the good ones, one was a woman who I think was later fired for being a woman (after I left) and the other never got the training he needed but was boosted to Sr. Dev prematurely. On the other hand, great developers in the US of Indian extraction are very common and a fair percentage of the sysadmins I met in India were pretty good. I don't think it is fair for me to speculate as to the why's; I'm sure there are plenty of people from India that can speculate.

Mexico (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44244025)

Mexico just displaced the US as having the most obese population.

Decline and fall of the USA?

Numbers are not everything (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44244115)

Takes 4-5 of them to one of US...

we are cheap labor (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44244473)

We are cheap labor just like 18th century's Chinese railroad worker ..

Re:we are cheap labor (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245177)

We are cheap labor just like 18th century's Chinese railroad worker ..

Nonsense. At least railroad construction can't be outsourced.

Re:we are cheap labor (1)

cold fjord (826450) | 1 year,20 days | (#44245591)

Maybe you missed some history. Cheap foreign labor was brought in for railroad construction before. It could be done again. Nothing says that they either have to be citizens, or remain in the country, they could be admitted on guest worker visas. That is close enough to not only out-sourcing, but off-shoring, that it hardly matters.

Transcontinental Railroad Recruits Chinese Laborers [pbslearningmedia.org]

What constitutes a "developer"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44245065)

Most of the "talent" I have seen from the Indian software shops is anything but talented. It is usually 1 guy who mostly knows what he is doing and 3 - 4 of his friends. To the PHB's it looks like "productivity", man look at that teamwork. Reality is very different.

Not just that... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,20 days | (#44245717)

Not just youth and population size, but companies in the US (and Canada) are *actively* outsourcing jobs to India. Banks in Canada have had entire divisions handed to 'onshore' companies, and locals train their half-pay onshore coworkers. Then, after about 5 years, the contract is no longer 'onshore' but 'offshore'. The coworkers return to their families in Bangalore, and the assume corporate offices there. They have 'foreign worker' experience, and are considered executive material. North Americans who trained them need not apply. Rinse, repeat. All the national banks in Canada have done this. I've heard (way too many) stories like this from Americans I know. This story isn't news about mere observation, this is a story about outsourcing, offshoring, and the willful destruction of an industry.

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