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Visual Studio vs. Eclipse: a Programmer's Comparison

timothy posted about a year ago | from the nothing-beats-a-good-punchcard-maker dept.

Programming 543

Nerval's Lobster writes "Developer and editor Jeff Cogswell is back with a comparison of Eclipse and Visual Studio, picking through some common complaints about both platforms and comparing their respective features. 'First, let's talk about usability,' he writes, 'and let's be frank: Neither Eclipse nor Visual Studio is a model for sound usability.' That being said, as an open-source project, Eclipse wins some points for its customizability and compatibility with languages; it's more difficult to modify Visual Studio to meet some programmer needs, which has led to any number of abandoned projects over the years. Microsoft choosing to eliminate macros in recent versions of Visual Studio has also led to some programmer frustrations (and a need for external tools)."

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Happy Tuesday from The Golden Girls! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298691)

Thank you for being a friend
Traveled down the road and back again
Your heart is true, you're a pal and a cosmonaut.

And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say, thank you for being a friend.

Re:Happy Tuesday from The Golden Girls! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298901)

Classic!

Re:Happy Tuesday from The Golden Girls! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298921)

*confidant

Not cosmonaut.

Re:Happy Tuesday from The Golden Girls! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299027)

Being that Bea Arthur looks a lot like Brezhnev, it is a very easy mistake to make.

Re:Happy Tuesday from The Golden Girls! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299083)

I masterbate to Bea Arthur.

Studio v. Eclipse (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298697)

Wait, what? There's a comparison to be made there?

Re:Studio v. Eclipse (2)

kthreadd (1558445) | about a year ago | (#44298739)

I believe so, or do you suggest that they are equal?

Re:Studio v. Eclipse (3, Insightful)

Vanderhoth (1582661) | about a year ago | (#44299023)

Is it important that a tree is equal to a fork? I know it's an exaggeration, but both are useful in completely unrelated ways that doesn't require comparison.

Re:Studio v. Eclipse (5, Informative)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#44298753)

Eclipse struggled a bit with the Eclipse 4 release but the new version Kepler is fantastic.

Visual Studio is great if you're developing for Microsoft platforms.

Fortunately, Microsoft platforms are growing less relevant by the day.

Re:Studio v. Eclipse (3, Informative)

lgw (121541) | about a year ago | (#44299571)

There was a time that VS was just the best C++ IDE around. The best library docs, the best source debugger, and pretty decent at being an extensible editor with auto-complete for names. The peak was probably ~10 years ago, and Eclipse back then, well, it had a long way to go.

Apparently "developers, developers, developers" didn't end well for developers using VS. It became less customizable each release, the focus shifted away from C++ (that part I can understand), and it kept getting more heavyweight. WTF? VS2010 at last seemed to be a step in the right direction, finally, but then the ribbon happened.

Let's stop using "That being said" (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298763)

Okay, people, let's all stop using "That being said." It doesn't make you look smarter. That being said, it makes you look less smarter.

Out of the box (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298767)

Out of the box, VS wins hands-down.

Re:Out of the box (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298991)

Your mom jumped out of a box at my bachelor party.
And put her hands-down my pants.

Re:Out of the box (0)

Vanderhoth (1582661) | about a year ago | (#44299133)

Until you add the extensions to Eclipse that let you program in several different languages, maintain different forms of content management systems, include issue tracking systems and run the programming environment on several different platforms. Eclipse is light years ahead because if it's modularity and extendibility.

Re:Out of the box (3, Interesting)

Shados (741919) | about a year ago | (#44299207)

Of course everything you described is the bare minimum for a modern IDE. Eclipse does have an advantage because it has more extensions written for it, but both IDEs have a ton (VS is also extremely extensible and has countless extensions written for it too).

But you're not helping your case if you only mention core IDE features. Issue tracking integration? ::GASPS:: stop the press!

Re:Out of the box (2)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#44299253)

Effective project management is pretty hard to implement properly (ask most developers).

Eclipse's Mylyn integration goes a long way towards making that aspect easier.

Re:Out of the box (1)

TheDarkMaster (1292526) | about a year ago | (#44299375)

If you can make it work right. (and in some cases is a lost cause.)

Um excuse me ... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298771)

A developer with sufficient skills can be productive in ....

A developer with sufficient skills can be productive in anything.

vi.

gedit.

emacs/xemacs

Pencil and paper.

And on very VERY rare occasions, I've seen developers who did everything their head and just typed in any old text editor.

Re:Um excuse me ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298825)

The point of an IDE is to make a programmer more productive. I bet you're a "real" programmer writing in emacs from your moms basement though.

Re:Um excuse me ... (0, Flamebait)

kthreadd (1558445) | about a year ago | (#44298975)

Emacs is pretty much an IDE; an IDE with a suboptimal text editor I would say, but the SCM integration is quite neat.

Re:Um excuse me ... (1)

K. S. Kyosuke (729550) | about a year ago | (#44299479)

an IDE with a suboptimal text editor

Only until you turn on Paredit.

Re:Um excuse me ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298993)

The point of an IDE is to make a programmer more productive. I bet you're a "real" programmer writing in emacs from your moms basement though.

No. That's not it at all - and I really come across like that?? (i need to work on that)

Anyway...

My point is - when you are comfortable with a system of development, you know the ins and outs of that system.

I've seen folks who can make Visual Studio sing to the point that it looks like developing software is just dragging and dropping objects and inserting a statement in a generated method.

I have seen embedded developers make their MAKEFILEs sing with just a text editor.

Because that's how they've been working for years.

Personally, I'm an Eclipse/PyDev fan - BTW, the dev for PyDev is sucking wind and asking for donations. I'm doing what I can and if anyone else thinks his work is worthwhile ....

Frankly, when I'm working with C/C++ code on Linux, I love Netbeans. It has wonderful makefile conversion abilities - I hate makefiles, especially GNU make - don't get me started. I "grew" up with IBM makefiles and GNU's - arrrrrrg.

Re:Um excuse me ... (4, Funny)

kthreadd (1558445) | about a year ago | (#44298843)

Forget text editors. Real developers adjust bits directly in memory using the switches on the operator panel.

Re:Um excuse me ... (5, Funny)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#44298885)

Fuck that shit bitch, butterflies for life.

Re:Um excuse me ... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299561)

Yeah, never forget the good old C-x M-c M-butterfly.

captcha: bearded, just on the day I decided to shave. FML

Re:Um excuse me ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299005)

Hells yeah bitches, don't forget cable re-wiring as well. Its all about Skillz, and you spoiled IDE babies need them.

Re:Um excuse me ... (0)

lgw (121541) | about a year ago | (#44299659)

Bah, you're only a real developer if you use the operator panel to patch running programs in memory!

Sadly, I've actually done this. It's sort of the opposite of "productive". It's not about what tools you can live without, it's about what makes you fastest, and that's usually about debugging, not typing in code.

Re:Um excuse me ... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299145)

Wow. I wish I were that elite. I mean, changing the world with out tools? That's like fixing a car with your mind.

Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298775)

And I *freeze*refu*freeze*se to h*freeze*ave anyo*freeze*ne tell me di*freeze*fferently. *freeze*.

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (5, Informative)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#44298823)

Check out the new Kepler release. Kepler was an iteration with a focus on improving the performance issues Juno had.

http://eclipse.org/kepler/ [eclipse.org]

Kepler is pretty nice UX wise.

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (4, Informative)

Githaron (2462596) | about a year ago | (#44298951)

I think I will stick with Intellij. It and its family are easily the best IDEs I have ever used.

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#44298961)

IntelliJ is definitely a great IDE as well.

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (0, Troll)

0123456 (636235) | about a year ago | (#44299039)

Does copy and paste work yet?

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (1)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year ago | (#44299529)

was it somehow borken? except that it copies(guesses) imports wrongly for snippets sometimes..

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299405)

Check out the new Kepler release. Kepler was an iteration with a focus on improving the performance issues Juno had.

http://eclipse.org/kepler/ [eclipse.org]

Kepler is pretty nice UX wise.

http://waynebeaton.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/eclipse4css1.png [wordpress.com]

Look at the grey and white areas around the toolbar and window controls and tell me that it's a "pretty nice UX". Seriously, have they actually tested using this on Linux?

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#44299423)

FWIW I use Eclipse on Linux doesn't have that issue.

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299585)

UX != "oh, pretties!"

Re:Ec*freeze*lip*freeze*se works (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299617)

Yes, the performance is much better, but the bugs, oh the bugs. It crashes twice everyday for no apparent reason. It causes massive glitches in graphics driver (Windows and Nvidia, so mostly very stable) while drag-dropping tabs and open files. Perspective switching fracks up the markup every now and then, warranting a restart. I'd love to say thanks, but this one's a no thanks.

No point (1, Insightful)

keltor (99721) | about a year ago | (#44298781)

There's no point in comparing the two. There's almost 0 crossover between what they are developing for except for a few Node.JS and C++ developers and even those are pretty rare.

Re:No point (2, Informative)

BitZtream (692029) | about a year ago | (#44299069)

C++ developers are rare? In what world do you live in that most of your computing doesn't depend on C/C++ code?

Just because you play with a few scripts for your website doesn't mean the rest of your software is written in some crappy scripting language.

Re:No point (0)

Shados (741919) | about a year ago | (#44299163)

Between web development, mobile development (mainly objective c and java), line of business apps, plugin devs, IT admins, database devs, etc, C/C++ devs are brutally outnumbered. Then of that small subset, take the ones that would use a full fledged IDE, and you end up with a VERY small subset. So yeah, when comparing IDEs, C++ devs are almost irrelevent.

Re:No point (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299221)

Funny I wrote an Objective C/C and C++ combo app (.mm). I guess I'm rare n outdated n all of that.

Re:No point (1)

kthreadd (1558445) | about a year ago | (#44299559)

I often get that reaction from people that can't see the difference between C++ and let's say MFC.

Re:No point (2, Insightful)

lgw (121541) | about a year ago | (#44299699)

The bulk of new development is Java/C# these days. It's for the best really - have you seen the sort of C++ a "Java programmer" will write?

Title not a good start (2, Insightful)

Captain_Chaos (103843) | about a year ago | (#44298815)

A developer with sufficient skills can be productive in both Visual Studio and Eclipse, ...

This is not a good sign. A developer with sufficient skills can be productive using vi as her IDE...

Re:Title not a good start (3, Insightful)

Jawnn (445279) | about a year ago | (#44299311)

This is not a good sign. A developer with sufficient skills can be productive using vi as her IDE...

Yes, but not as productive. Yes, it's true. It's been measured. A skilled coder, working in an IDE, can run rings around the coder working in a text editor when the "product" is something more sophisticated than "hello world".

Re:Title not a good start (0)

cusco (717999) | about a year ago | (#44299613)

I'm not sure anyone can be productive using vi . . .

[shudder]

WTF? (4, Informative)

TheDarkMaster (1292526) | about a year ago | (#44298819)

Eclipse IS slow, period. I work with him for over six years and has ALWAYS been slow compared with a similar IDE that is not based on Java. And not only slow, but terribly buggy. TFA sounds more like an article made by an eclipse fanboy than a developer trying to make a truly honest comparison.

Re: WTF? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299061)

I got the same impression. Regardless of what some fanboys want to believe or say about it, Visual Studio is simply a great IDE for Windows development. If there are usability issues it is because the user simply hasn't taken the time to learn, I haven't had any issues.

Re: WTF? (0, Troll)

TheDarkMaster (1292526) | about a year ago | (#44299189)

And I just got moderated down by fanboys. Damn humans, they prefer theirs private fantasy worlds than reality.

Re: WTF? (4, Funny)

thewils (463314) | about a year ago | (#44299387)

Actually, Microsoft have been working on this aspect to try to slow down VS to compete with Eclipse. VS2012 for instance now has a pause built in where you can't do anything for about 10 seconds when you open up an aspx page, presumably while it parses the file for you...even when you don't want intellisense and just want to copy some code out. It gets really annoying after a while.

Vanilla VS2012 won't let you build an installer for a Windows service either, which you could do with VS2010, so I have to maintain both of them on my dev box, unfortunately.

Re:WTF? (1)

nwf (25607) | about a year ago | (#44299309)

Eclipse IS slow, period. I work with him for over six years and has ALWAYS been slow compared with a similar IDE that is not based on Java. And not only slow, but terribly buggy. TFA sounds more like an article made by an eclipse fanboy than a developer trying to make a truly honest comparison.

I've got Eclipse Juno and a later version of VS installed on the same relatively fast PC (solid state disks). Neither are speed demons, but I think VS is slower, particularly when building. It's somewhat amazing how fast Eclipse builds my project with over 1000 classes, whereas VS takes about the same amount of time to build a C project with 10 files small files.

Re:WTF? (1)

TheDarkMaster (1292526) | about a year ago | (#44299513)

Depends on what VS you are talking. If you mean the VS 2005 or newer, it is also very slow. As for Eclipse, it is slow in general: Slow to load a JSP, slow to load an auto-complete, slow for any operation more relevant. It may not be obvious on a computer for $ 6,000, but anything below is easy to see happening. And some important things are terribly buggy and poorly performing, such checking the correctness of a JSP file.

Netbeans! (5, Informative)

bigsexyjoe (581721) | about a year ago | (#44298889)

It isn't nearly as popular (and I don't know why), but Netbeans kicks Eclipses ass. True, they are both memory hogs. But Netbeans doesn't drag and freeze as much. Its commands and interface are a lot more intuitive. Netbeans is also a much better IDE for the web. It handles JavaScript way better than Eclipse and even allows you to debug your JavaScript through a Chrome extension.

Drag and freeze (1)

phorm (591458) | about a year ago | (#44299105)

I haven't had this issue with Eclipse for quite awhile (at least not the Linux version).
Actually, I was just discussing the other day how I'd started using it again in the last few months and how it seemed much more stable these days, as previously it used to lock up or crash quite regularly (often on code-completion, etc). I'm particularly impressed by how well it generally handles C++ and not just Java. I tried Codeblocks for awhile and while project setup was easier, code-completion was hit-or-miss for various libraries.

Comparing to Visual Studio... well no comparison for anyone who isn't a Windows user.

Re:Netbeans! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299609)

If you're working with PHP, Netbeans is great. Install xdebug in your local web server, and then you can do line-by-line debugging just like you would with Java or C# in Eclipse/Visual Studio. Being able to debug your client-side Javascript and server-side PHP in the same window is web developer enlightenment. Netbeans beats everything for me.

Re:Netbeans! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299675)

I use both of them for my work all the time. NetBeans is much simpler. The dialogs boxes aren't as insane as in eclipse. It understands Maven a bit better. Although the newest version of Eclipse (kepler) seems to do an OK job. I love the editors in NetBeans. Eclipse has much better support for repository browsing. NetBeans basically doesn't have any. I think that's the main reason I keep eclipse running. That said, a nice feature of NetBeans is that you can checkout a project from the command prompt and then load it into NetBeans and NB will carry on from there w/o a problem. I don't think Eclipse will let you do that. You can also drop back down to the prompt and commit and NB will deal with it properly. The last time I tried that with Eclipse, it didn't work right. Eclipse does a better job with maven where you've got project A relying on project B. Changes to project B will cause project A to refresh (for example, reload a webapp where the webapp is A and B is a library that A uses). That can be a show stopper for NetBeans. Not to date myself too much here, but I liken them to old televisions. When the TV wouldn't sink the horizontal signal, you'd have to smack it on the side in the right spot. With Eclipse you wack it on the right, with NB's you smack it on left.

Reviewer doesn't know the first thing! (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298895)

"Studio also requires a working set of about 250 megabytes of memory, while Eclipse requires about 3 megabytes of memory..."

Erm, working set on a newly launched eclipse (no project) takes 13x,xxxK.

Plus working set is actually a GOOD thing - in theory. Imagine two programs which each take 700 megabytes running on a machine with only 1000 (and 24). Imagine them sharing some ... libraries, we could call them, of 500 megs each. So the working set would only be 900! Yay! Disk thrash averted :)

Oh, DLL hell? Ah.

Yes.

Re:Reviewer doesn't know the first thing! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299235)

The autor of TFA is just a dumb fanboy, nothing to see here.

Visual Studio always just works (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298903)

Eclipse is like, first you waste half an hour trying to get all the RPM and JVM dependencies fixed up, and no, that's not just a matter of running yum.

Then you launch it and are immediately dazzled by a web portal-style desktop app, which obviously was designed so that everyone's pet feature is available within 3 mouse clicks. The problem is that there are 100's of these features.

Then you get their "hello, world" app to run and debugging, and it works fine.

4. Then you try to debug your app and it runs out of Java heap space.

Then you google and find where in the .ini file you're supposed to increase the memory parameters, so you go do that.

Goto step 4 and repeat. I've given up on Eclipse.

Re:Visual Studio always just works (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#44299443)

Whats that thing they say about poor workmen?

From C++ perspective (2, Interesting)

postmortem (906676) | about a year ago | (#44298905)

Eclipse's gcc code parser integration is better than IntelliSense. It actually understand OO code. VS struggles badly with understanding OO code. for example, if every class re-implements one virtual function, VS cannot figure out usage of one particular implementation; even if there are object declared with that class.

Thus VS is good for debugging, for everything else in C++... not much so.

Re:From C++ perspective (2)

BitZtream (692029) | about a year ago | (#44299035)

Ironically, everyone else who makes IDE's doesn't use GCC for code parsing because it sucks ass ... Maybe when you get around to using LLVM, you'll really that Eclipse is actually the shitty one.

Re:From C++ perspective (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299357)

Maybe when you get a few more years of experience under your belt, you'll realize that this style of speaking makes you come off as a douchebag who is incapable of considering that he might not be the smartest person in the room.

Re:From C++ perspective (1)

shutdown -p now (807394) | about a year ago | (#44299709)

Which version of VS was your experience with?

In my experience, VS has the single best C++ IDE parser out there. It's the only one of two IDEs that seems to be able arbitrarily complicated template metaprogramming code thrown at it (e.g. Boost.Lambda). The other is KDevelop.

Qt Creator!! (5, Informative)

goruka (1721094) | about a year ago | (#44298915)

For all of those that love Visual Studio for C++ programming, and having used eclipse for some time, I believe Qt Creator is by far a much better alternative, as it has around the same level of functionality of VS+expensive commercial plugins.

Even letting the Qt integration out, It has excellent code completion, shows warnings and errors as you type, provides great refactoring tools, It's extremely lightweight, works with any compiler and any build system, in any platform, integrates with a wide array of debuggers and profilers, has a high degree of customization, and some unique features like the best search/replace I've ever used and the locator (ctrl-k).

The only reason it's not more popular is that most people believes it's only useful for writing Qt applications, which couldn't be further away from the truth. It's simply awesome. If I worked for Digia, I'd try to change the name and promote it to something unrelated to Qt, that way it would be really easy to bring new developers to their platform.

Re:Qt Creator!! (2)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year ago | (#44299645)

you going to code java with qt creator? only an idiot - masochistic glorious idiot - would try to code qt with eclipse.

which pretty much gets us to the point of why the fuck make this comparison? really, the c/c++ in eclipse is horrible and you most definitely are NOT going to be coding .net in eclipse.

I've used both eclipse and visual studio for the past year.. and just as well. the other for android stuff and the other for windows phone development.

trying out the new android studio now though.. now there's a comparison that could actually be useful: comparing another hammer to another similar hammer, so compare eclipse with idea because that's something a lot of people are contemplating now, if they should switch. but I guarantee that pretty much nobody was trying to decide if they should do what they do in visual studio in eclipse or the other way around. what's next, a compiler comparison between rcvt and intels compiler? oh wait I think we had that already..

A real study is needed (3, Insightful)

mlwmohawk (801821) | about a year ago | (#44298919)

As far as I am concerned, IDEs are largely similar in their view of software development. They are like bloated bureaucracies that one has to deal with to do anything constructive. If you dare have a project format that VS, Eclipse, or what have you, doesn't understand, and you have to set up the environment to do everything manually. I know I sound like I am saying "Get off my lawn," but I am really saying we need to understand the development process better. IDEs obscure it too much. Tools like VIM and Emacs expose 100% of it. (In full disclosure I use VIM, ctags, make, etc.)

We need to come up with the programmer's equivalent of the SAE and define basic tools of the trade. It will never happen, of course, but that's *really* what we are fighting about.

Re:A real study is needed (2)

BitZtream (692029) | about a year ago | (#44298995)

There is no benefit to knowing how to make a Make file if you're only going to compile a Windows app. Pretending that we all need to know the inner details of make is retarded.

Protip: You can edit visual studio project files in VIM!!!! So its pretty hard to say it hides stuff from you when you have access to everything in a .proj file that you do in a Makefile and can use the same editors.

I guess you think visual studio hides stuff because it doesn't require you to use a shitty editor for the project files? You seem to think using a shitty editor is a good thing?

Very differant experience (3, Interesting)

doas777 (1138627) | about a year ago | (#44298957)

The author and I have had a almost oppositionally different experience with the platforms I've had. Visual studio, for all its flaws, feels smooth and solid, with prompt code assistance features and a generally good approach to code organization. It has its share of issues, but it seems to be clearer and more directed.

Eclipse however just feels generally clunky. I pause for 20+ seconds just to get code completion prompting to come up in python or java, and half the time its in the wrong context. the perspectives is also really annoying. everytime I go to debug, it halts everything to tell me it wants to switch, and then gives me a 2inch high window for viewing the code, anchoring is weak, and it always seems like I never get back the space I should when I dock a sub-window. Personally I really don't care how extensible my IDE is. any given ide is not going to be able to support all langagues and technologies, so why try to shoehorn it in?

Re:Very differant experience (0)

inasity_rules (1110095) | about a year ago | (#44299273)

I haven't used eclipse, but I have found Visual Studio to be a memory hog. Sure, the code completion works instantly(and well), but on occasion I have found myself stepping over the code and then between two simple lines waiting some seconds while the disk thrashes a bit. To be fair, I only have 4Gb of memory and normally at least one VM running, but still... 1Gb for windows 7, 1 for the VM, and 2 for Visual Studio? Apparently not enough....

Re:Very differant experience (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299635)

What are you doing that causes VS to use 2gb of memory? I have a project with 1million+ lines of code over thousands of files and it's sitting at 300mb.

Pretty sure you're using it wrong or your antecdote is fabricated.

Re:Very differant experience (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299447)

-1 for making me read "almost oppositionally different experience"

Conclusion: meh (5, Insightful)

Aviancer (645528) | about a year ago | (#44298969)

So the conclusion is "both work; each has some flakiness".

That's a long-winded way of saying "meh".

vi or emacs debates anyone?

Why are you surprised? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299175)

This is the same Jeff Cogswell that has been making the other brain dead comparisons in articles recently. Nerval's Lobster has repeatedly accepted postings from this dolt since Dice bought /. so I assume there's some kind of business relationship Jeff has with Dice.

Re:Conclusion: meh (1)

UnknownSoldier (67820) | about a year ago | (#44299679)

> vi or emacs debates anyone?

Yup. Meh. Only the immature junior programmers flame each arguing over which editor is better instead of channeling their energy into _writing_ code. /flame They ALL suck. Some just suck less then others.

JetBrains (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44298987)

Absolutely no tool stands up to JetBrains. It is hands down the best software for development. I've recently switched back to Dreamweaver for PHP and Javascript, and realized it's basically just a bloated syntax highlighter. I will stop using it as soon as I get a moment to install something better. It is hands down the WORST IDE. Resharper for Visual Studio makes Visual Studio an excellent IDE. IntelliJ from JetBrains makes it better than any tool-set available in eclipse. And I'll bet you it never takes a day to load. I have no affiliation with JetBrains other than I bought their product.

PostSharp & Reflector (1)

whitedsepdivine (1491991) | about a year ago | (#44299001)

I run VS Ultimate withe PostSharp and RedGate Reflector. It is really the best set of tools you can get. PostSharp completely helps with cleaning code. Reflector help debug what 3rd party assemblies are doing.

Left out MyEclipse and IntelliJ (4, Insightful)

Kagato (116051) | about a year ago | (#44299045)

You're comparing an expensive IDE to a free one. I'd be more interested how it compares to a curated Eclipse experience like MyEclipse or a closed source IDE like IntelliJ. All that being said, Eclipse is mostly used by folks using Java or languages that run in the JVM. Visual Studio is going to be used by those on a Microsoft stack.

refactoring (2)

swan5566 (1771176) | about a year ago | (#44299065)

MSVS needs to get refactoring. This is huge for maintaining large software projects.

Re:refactoring (1)

Shados (741919) | about a year ago | (#44299097)

You have to be more specific when you say stuff like that. VS does have all the basic refactorings, and has more in every version (not really worth talking about 2010 and earlier when we're in 2013).

Of course, whats build in is primitive compared to other IDEs, because of all the plugins and extensions that fill the gap. If you're one of the 2-3 VS users who don't use Resharper or other plugins, well, tough.

Debugger (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299077)

Has anything come close to matching Visual Studio's integrated visual debugging capabilities yet? The only reason I stick with VS (Express) is because I haven't been able to find anything that matches the power of the debugger. If there's an IDE with a better integrated debugger I'd love to know about it.

Re:Debugger (1)

ifrag (984323) | about a year ago | (#44299147)

Not really, and the article neatly avoids this issue by not even mentioning the word "debug" once.

Re:Debugger (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299349)

This is a biggie. I wrote stuff in C that ran on *NIX and Windows. On those occasions when the bug could only be reproduced on *NIX, I felt like I was bombed back to the stone age with GDB. I'm not sure what Eclipse has to offer because it ran... like... this... on my hardware and VS wasn't broken so why fix it?

Side note: We had a would-be "project manager" who interviewed at the same company. Big Java guy. When we told him the software ran on Windows, FreeBSD and Linux he was like, "so it must be written in Java, right?". Met with astonishment that it wasn't, yet *still* followed up with, "Why aren't you using Eclipse?". I'm sooooo glad I didn't have to work with that guy. He would have rammed all that down our throats no doubt, if given the authority.

On Comparisons (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299079)

Visual Studio is a sloppily put-together car. Eclipse is a well-designed and beautifully-crafted horse-drawn carriage. Actually, never mind, it's not well-designed or beautifully-crafted. This guy (an obvious Java-booster, if you've read his previous articles) tries to deal with Eclipse's speed issues off the bat by blaming it on "slow systems." I'm sorry, but taking 500 MB of RAM with nothing loaded is crazy. Eclipse crashes, it hangs, it's just not usable to the same degree as Visual Studio. At home I have a choice of environment, and I choose VS if it's even remotely possible. I'd rather use nano or emacs than Eclipse, and code::blocks is a genuinely viable alternative for the Linux crowd. Just because something doesn't come from Microsoft doesn't mean it's better.

Needed a bit of editing. (1)

ndykman (659315) | about a year ago | (#44299091)

"Eclipse requires about 3 megabytes of memory (depending on what you're using it for)."

If you are using it for anything, I think it probably does use more memory than that. The only other thing I'd note is that the Python Tools for Visual Studio work with CPython, not just IronPython.

The rest of the article isn't that bad, but it does seem like a lot of words to say that both have advantages and disadvantages and are targeted towards different use cases and environments.

I'm still using VS 2008... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299109)

The newer versions of Visual Studio have some great features unfortunately, usability isn't one of them...

Here is a minor example but exemplifies the entire experience. On windows there is this feature where you can right click and drag an object. Then you are given the choice of copying or moving the object. In VS 2008 that same feature exists within the editor but later versions have removed that feature... Remember, that feature is common throughout MS software but has been removed from their front line development environment. The list goes on... but this example really emphasizes the point.

One more thing, with VS 2008, I'm still able to write software for all platforms with the exception of windows phone... (Since no one uses windows phone... I think I'm safe for a few more years.)

IDEA & ReSharper (1)

Cheburator-2 (260358) | about a year ago | (#44299215)

Google threw out Eclipse to replace it with IntelliJ IDEA as a basis for its Android Studio. Why didn't author consider comparison with IDEA instead of Eclipse? Also Visual Studio is commonly used together with ReSharper, it made sense at least to mention it.

Re:IDEA & ReSharper (1)

N0Man74 (1620447) | about a year ago | (#44299461)

Google threw out Eclipse to replace it with IntelliJ IDEA as a basis for its Android Studio

Threw out? It certainly seems like they are in the transition, but they also give a pretty strong disclaimer that the new Android Studio might not be ready for primetime, and advises that some might want to stick to Eclipse.

Both are good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299251)

Visual studio works, with any of the languages and works well, Eclipse works well, with Java, anything else its a fight for stability especially if targeting some obscure runtime like MinGW or something, Eclipse is also a pain in the ass to configure for paths and libraries, when it works it works well (with Java).

Getters and setters (3, Insightful)

MemeRot (80975) | about a year ago | (#44299293)

"One full-time Java programmer told me that he hasn’t had to manually type in any setters and getters in years, and he has a template from which all his objects are typed in automatically, thanks to the code snippet tools in his favorite editor (which isn’t Eclipse—he uses IntelliJ). Clearly, methods of automated typing seem to be a favorite among a lot of programmers. So why did Visual Studio remove a feature that facilitated this? Who knows."

Let's not mention the fact that in C# you don't need to manually type in all the getter/setter junk, just public int MyField {get; set;}

Re:Getters and setters (4, Interesting)

AdamHaun (43173) | about a year ago | (#44299603)

Tangential question: What's the advantage of having getters and setters vs. just accessing the variable directly? If automatically generating getters and setters is just an easy/common thing, what function do they really serve?

I've only done OO programming in college (I do embedded C now), so I'm assuming there's some real-world advantage that I'm not aware of.

QtCreator (1)

protomala (551662) | about a year ago | (#44299307)

The best IDE I've used is QtCreator, just because it is simple, the UI is clean and it does not get into your way. Lets use the points on this article to add it to the comparsion: - speed: much faster/lean than Eclipse, netbeans and Visual Studio. - usability: second place, have a nice debug view, but nothing as flexible as Eclipse perpective. - overwhelming: first, as I've said, have lots of features that do not make the UI big/fat/dirty. - customizability: last. You basicaly don't, just some panels you can change/add. But this is actually part of it's beauty: keeping the UI clean. - code: while it supports basically C/C++, Qt Crerator is one really good IDE. In one project, made in C++/Boost, that we used VS to build, we had to use QtCreator, as VS could not follow functions/symbols correctly, while QtCreator did without any delay. Plugin support is there, but you will only find a few like doxygen. But I would put it in second, as perspectives and custom-builds (like the Flex Builder IDE) makes Eclipse an all-in-all language and coding support. QtCreator is a really decent IDE, that sadly is not known by most people, but if you are developing a project in C/C++, I recommend you give it a try, you could end up being in love with it ;)

Would you rather be hung or gassed? (0)

Maudib (223520) | about a year ago | (#44299453)

Really, two of the worst IDEs out there. Of the memory bloated ones out there, I can really only stomach the Jetbrains stuff.

This article lacks the most important thing: debug (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299523)

Yes I use IDEs for coding, and I want to be confortable using syntax highlight, shortcuts and fancy tools. But the most important feature I want is to have a professional and versatile debug interface.

This article sounds like the propouse of an IDE is to be super fancy text editor.

From my point of view, the capabilities of Visual Studio for debugging are far better developed than the ones in Eclipse.

- My two cents.

Abandoned projects (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299567)

>it's more difficult to modify Visual Studio to meet some programmer needs, which has led to any number of abandoned projects over the years.

I really doubt any worthwhile project was abandoned because the user wasn't bright enough to handle Visual Studio without modifications.

I haven't read the article yet.. (1)

Sla$hPot (1189603) | about a year ago | (#44299593)

But at this very moment i'm about to fire up my gold old blow torch..Nah!

Biggest Visual Studio defect: Runs on Windows (3, Informative)

swillden (191260) | about a year ago | (#44299595)

The biggest problem with Visual Studio, for me, at least, is that it only runs on Windows. I use a lot of different operating systems, but Windows isn't among them.

Why compare? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299629)

Visual Studio is for MS environments, Eclipse is for the rest.

The worst reviewer (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44299663)

Please stop even mentioning Jeff Cogswell. Every final word from him is like "Meh. You could do this or that," and he has little to no integrity to his research. He's just a guy giving his unwarranted shitty opinion, and should be relegated to this comments section, not given his own article in the main feed.

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