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Ingy döt Net Tells How Acmeism Bridges Gaps in the Software World (Video)

timothy posted about 9 months ago | from the one-for-all-and-all-for-one dept.

Programming 164

Ingy döt Net (yes, that's his name) likes to bridge gaps in the software world. People get religious about their favorite programming languages, he says, but in the end, no matter the language, the methodology or the underlying OS, all programming is about telling computers what to do -- from "add these numbers" to complex text manipulation. Ingy compares a new app or module in the world of Free and Open Source as a gift that the creator has given to others; if that gift can be simultaneously bestowed on users of Perl, Python, and Ruby at the same time, its worth is amplified. So he proposes (and provides a growing set of tools) to make programming language irrelevant, by the sly means of encouraging people to write software using whatever their favorite tools are, but with a leaning toward using only language features which are broadly available to *other* programming languages as well. He's adopted the term Acmeism to describe this approach; Acmeists who follow his lead strive to create software that is broadly re-useable and adaptable, rather than tied only to a single platform.

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164 comments

Been doing that since ages... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373111)

That's called "using C"...

Re: Been doing that since ages... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373413)

hey, don't tell them...

Re:Been doing that since ages... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373783)

Or Microsoft's "Common Language Runtime", or is it "Common Runtime Language"?

Re:Been doing that since ages... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374195)

Common Language Runtime - CLR

Re:Been doing that since ages... (2)

istartedi (132515) | about 9 months ago | (#44373829)

The problem with that is when I said, "Why can't we just put C on web pages?" all the people who make the decisions laughed at me.

You, me, and a bunch of other people would be quite happy with a sandboxed general-purpose VM in the browser, which we could target with anything, including C. We would have been VERY happy with a shell account and a compiler on our web server back in the day.

We didn't make the decision though. Collectively a decision was made to make JavaScript and Perl widely available on those platforms. On the server, they eventually moved away from Perl; but the original decision to keep C out of our hands remained intact. The initial excuse of "they'll run wild and consume resources and/or access some forbidden APIs" was never really valid for a properly run *NIX system, and is even less valid now.

Nevertheless, these decisions have been made. It's out of our control, at least for now. Even if it's technically possible; it's still socially impossible. They'll just laugh at you for generating web pages in C. You can do it yourself as a hobby. On your own server... if your ISP doesn't shut you down for running a server. More stuff that's out of your control.

Re:Been doing that since ages... (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 9 months ago | (#44374131)

" Collectively a decision was made to make JavaScript and Perl widely available on those platforms. On the server, they eventually moved away from Perl; but the original decision to keep C out of our hands remained intact."

But those decisions were not made randomly; they were made for reasons.

"The initial excuse of "they'll run wild and consume resources and/or access some forbidden APIs" was never really valid for a properly run *NIX system, and is even less valid now."

That's because a "properly run *NIX system" is not what everybody has, and probably won't be what everybody has for the foreseeable future. The internet is not exclusive to Techies. And it would be a disaster if it were.

Re:Been doing that since ages... (3, Insightful)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about 9 months ago | (#44374087)

That's called "using C"...

Kind of. What you actually end up with is "the lowest common denominator"... a language that does everything, but with none of the advantages other languages are known for.

That's why you never see survivalists and electricians both using Swiss Army Knives as their primary tools.

Ingy döt Net (1)

Shortguy881 (2883333) | about 9 months ago | (#44373113)

He must have a very loving family

Re:Ingy döt Net (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373159)

Over indulgence. The result is a very smart man who has no real value to society. Perhaps he will write an opus...

Re:Ingy döt Net (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373193)

His birth name was "Brian Ingerson". He changed it.

Re:Ingy döt Net (2)

Megane (129182) | about 9 months ago | (#44373221)

All I can say is, nice metal umlaut, [wikipedia.org] bro.

Re:Ingy döt Net (1)

arth1 (260657) | about 9 months ago | (#44373707)

Dear Americans:
When you have two dots over a vowel, and the character immediately to the left isn't also pronounced as a vowel, it must be an umlaut. And in all languages that have umlauts, the pronunciation changes - that's why it's called an umlaut.

So he wants us to call him "Ingy Duht Net", and when only ASCII is available, rewrite his name to "Ingy Doet Net"?

Anyhow, if he really is, as he claims in http://ingy.net/resume/ [ingy.net], the creator of YAML, he needs a swift kick in the buttocks on general principles. How is Yet Another Markup Language compatible with his views that things should be simple subsets?

Re:Ingy döt Net (1)

mwvdlee (775178) | about 9 months ago | (#44373869)

Not all double dots on a vowel are umlauts, nor should they all be treated as such: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic) [wikipedia.org]

You're right on YAML though; started out as an interresting file format, but has grown into something overly complex.
I just use JSON instead; it's syntax is a lot more human writable and machine readable.

Re:Ingy döt Net (1)

TWiTfan (2887093) | about 9 months ago | (#44373955)

Something tells me that there would be no shortage of people who would line up to kick this guy in the nuts.

Re:Ingy döt Net (1)

umghhh (965931) | about 9 months ago | (#44374091)

Dear arth1,

It may be that the term metal umlaut is not known to you which is OK. Not everybody has to be fun of Motorhead, Blue Oyster Cult etc or know that these and othe rmetal bands use this freely to express whatever they think they are expressing with this sort of fonts. In case you did not know GP provided a link to an article in wikipedia that explains this quite nicely.

This thing about yaml is odd I admit thou.

Re:Ingy döt Net (1)

SleazyRidr (1563649) | about 9 months ago | (#44374283)

Dear umghhh,

Words have meanings, letters have sounds. Motorhead sounds different to Motörhead. I think the letter w looks cool, but I can't go around calling myself SlwazwRidw. No one would understand that.

Also, to stay on topic, obligatory xkcd: http://www.xkcd.com/927 [xkcd.com]

Re:Ingy döt Net (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374211)

Anyhow, if he really is, as he claims in http://ingy.net/resume/ [ingy.net] [ingy.net], the creator of YAML, he needs a swift kick in the buttocks on general principles. How is Yet Another Markup Language compatible with his views that things should be simple subsets?

I believe his birth name is Brian Ingerson. You are correct he is not the creator of YAML. He is the third author of the YAML spec that was written by Oren Ben-Kiki, Clark Evans, and Brian Ingerson. YAML was a product of the SML-DEV group and he was asked to join their efforts when they noticed his Data::Denter module in CPAN.

He overstated his claim by declaring himself the "Inventor of YAML" on his resume.

Re:Ingy döt Net (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373461)

I guess silly vanity names are the tattoos and spikey neon hair for the digital age. If you can't shock 'em in person, shock 'em with a ridiculous name.

Facepalm.

Re:Ingy döt Net (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373853)

Silly names are all the rage [babyzoink.com] these days, doncha know?

Re:Ingy döt Net (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374021)

I met him at a party in Portland several years ago, I was the only man at that party who wasn't wearing a dress.

Acmeism? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373123)

try{ ...
}
catch(roadrunner)

Always seems to fail for some reason, though.

Re:Acmeism? (3, Funny)

suutar (1860506) | about 9 months ago | (#44373417)

that's the problem. Roadrunners don't get thrown, so they can't get caught this way. He should be catching Anvil, Fire, MeWhenSteppingOffCliff, and some other stuff. But for the roadrunner issue he needs to be using roadrunner.halt(). The problem, of course, is getting a handle to the roadrunner instance.

Yay, another hipster programming messiah!!! (3, Insightful)

TWiTfan (2887093) | about 9 months ago | (#44373145)

He's going to overturn decades of experience, hard work, research, and language development because HE'S A REBEL!!!

Re:Yay, another hipster programming messiah!!! (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 9 months ago | (#44373811)

Yes, he has a PhD in Spontaneous Maverickism.

(So did Palin, but nobody can find her school.)

Re:Yay, another hipster programming messiah!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374375)

To be fair, she earned it by going to 8 different schools in 6 years.

Re:Yay, another hipster programming messiah!!! (1)

Bill_the_Engineer (772575) | about 9 months ago | (#44374327)

Or he will just reiterate what we known all along that Perl is the glue that combines multiple executables together.

Re:Yay, another hipster programming messiah!!! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374497)

I believe that's precisely opposite his point.

Consider for instance, his Jemplate system that compiles (perl) Template::Toolkit templates into javascript.

Or his YAML markup language that lets several languages exchange/share data.

Lowest common denominator. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373155)

Let's limit all software features to that which was available in GW BASIC.

Re:Lowest common denominator. (1)

nojayuk (567177) | about 9 months ago | (#44373429)

God's Wonderful BASIC... I was very disappointed to find it wouldn't run under Windows 8.

Re:Lowest common denominator. (1)

HornWumpus (783565) | about 9 months ago | (#44373711)

Sure it will. Dosbox runs almost everywhere. Which makes GWbasic truly cross platform.

Re:Lowest common denominator. (1)

nojayuk (567177) | about 9 months ago | (#44373753)

Yeah but the performance would suck under DOSbox. I wanted it to run native on the bare metal OS.

Re:Lowest common denominator. (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about 9 months ago | (#44374085)

The performance of DOSBox is quite good actually. It even has a "dynamic" core which means parts of code is executed on the host when possible.

But then again, many BASIC interpreters are not very high-performance to begin with.

All in all, you should get a rather nice authentic GWBASIC experience under DOSBox.

Who the f*** is he? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373199)

Never heard of him, so why should I take his ideas seiously?

Re:Who the f*** is he? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373247)

In my opinion, if the ideas are good, you don't have to have known the person before. I don't know if they are, though.

Wait, what (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373229)

This is easily the worst piece of non-news/mattering stuff ever.

This person has no clue (2)

gweihir (88907) | about 9 months ago | (#44373261)

Other than going back to assembler (or rather its modern equivalent "C"), there is no way to do what he proposes even if we stay in the imperative class of languages. OO is also possible with C, but no compiler support whatsoever and that means most people cannot do it. Then we have functional languages which cannot reasonably be emulated in C. And we have logical languages, with the same problem. With a bit of a broader focus, CA systems like Mathlab also qualify as "programming environments", and again, they cannot reasonably be emulated in C. And don't even get me started on things like garbage collection, weak pointers, coercion, multiple inheritance, static type safety, dynamic type safety, covariant or conform inheritance (Eiffel), etc.

So while this person may have a fancy (or rather stupid) name, he has no clue about programming and this is about the most stupid thing one could propose.

Re:This person has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373327)

But he's young and hip, so he must know programming right? Let's give this guy a job!

Re:This person has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373375)

C stopped being like assembly decades ago. Modern assembly is all about SIMD which C has no equivalent.

Re:This person has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373553)

I guess I'll go remove all that __m128 garbage. Thanks for letting me know that it wasn't doing anything.

Re:This person has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373675)

You mean a non-standard compiler extension which is not part of C? What next? C is like GPU assembly because you can point to an OpenCL data type? Are you a mental midget or do you just play one for fun?

Re:This person has no clue (1)

gweihir (88907) | about 9 months ago | (#44373751)

Nonsense. You are thinking about special hardware. Ever tried to program x86 in assembly? It is a pain. But doing it is C is fine and pretty efficient.

Re:This person has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374287)

win32 x86 Macro+asm is better than C IMHO
but if you are talking about something like a SPARC and raw X11, I guess that being fisted in the ass is just a little bit less painful.

Re:This person has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373437)

It seems like he is saying, instead of using coredata or other platform centric things, use cross compatible data structures that can be one for one replaced on another language fairly easily.

Whether it can be done or not is arguable, but it is a fairly good idea to try and have that argument and see what comes of it.

But go ahead, bring the hate.....

Further proof that Igny has no clue (3, Informative)

xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) | about 9 months ago | (#44373463)

From his web site:"Most computer programmers learn one programming language."

Umm...I'm sure I've ever met a programmer who only knew one language. Even in college, I had to navigate six (mainframe and PC assembler, COBOL, C, C++, FORTRAN) in coursework and 3 more (Perl, Java and Javascript) in my campus job, not to mention all the scripting and compiling environments I had to navigate to get things to work.

Re:Further proof that Igny has no clue (1)

grasshoppa (657393) | about 9 months ago | (#44373533)

I'm not even a developer/programmer, just a lowly network admin, and I know almost dozen languages ( java, c#, c/c++, javascript, bash, perl, ruby, python, php, SQL, vbscript ).

While I'd like to dismiss his claims that most programmers know a single language, I'm forced to accept it as a possibility given the number of apps and their "behavior" that i've had to support.

Re:Further proof that Igny has no clue (1)

Desler (1608317) | about 9 months ago | (#44373551)

His view of "most programmers" seems to be limited to the hipsters he meets at Starbucks that own MacBook Pros.

Re: Further proof that Igny has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374003)

I'm guessing a developer/programmer might define "know" a bit differently.

Re:Further proof that Igny has no clue (1)

gweihir (88907) | about 9 months ago | (#44373699)

Well, most incompetent programmers learn only one language, he is right about that. But just as learning another spoken language broadens your horizon and makes you realize more about the thing you are actually dealing with and that language shapes your view, all reasonable programmers know several languages and do not think in their programming language but in actual concepts. I thing of the one-language programmer just as I think of the 1-trick pony: They have no clue whatsoever.

Come to think of it, there actually seem to be no-language "programmers" out there: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2010/02/the-nonprogramming-programmer.html [codinghorror.com]

Re:Further proof that Igny has no clue (1)

CODiNE (27417) | about 9 months ago | (#44374271)

I just met this guy the other day at Starbucks, he's a comp sci major. Knows 2 whole languages. C# and Java.

Seriously. CS major, managed languages. I really hope he's using "unsafe" and pointers but I doubt it.

Re:Further proof that Igny has no clue (5, Funny)

mcmonkey (96054) | about 9 months ago | (#44374451)

I just met this guy the other day at Starbucks, he's a comp sci major. Knows 2 whole languages. C# and Java.

Seriously. CS major, managed languages. I really hope he's using "unsafe" and pointers but I doubt it.

The important question is, did he get your order right?

Re:This person has no clue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373559)

I think you rather missed the point. He is trying to say that if you write an markup interpreter (reinventing XML) that works in Ruby AND Perl AND PHP then everyone (surely everyone uses one of those languages right?) can use it to serialize more shit that they have no actual need for.

Plan 9 called... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373319)

They want their idea back:
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.html

Wow, what a new idea (1, Insightful)

grasshoppa (657393) | about 9 months ago | (#44373431)

...or, you know, not.

Christ, what a douchebag.

"Everyone, wait! It's all just 1s and 0s! I'VE SOLVED ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS!"

Re:Wow, what a new idea (1)

TWiTfan (2887093) | about 9 months ago | (#44374059)

This is just the kind of brilliant insight you get after smoking weed all night, only to wake up the next day and realize that none of what you wrote down even makes any sense.

Way back in the dark ages... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373433)

We were taught to create things called flowcharts. Then we moved to writing algorithms, which was just writing the program in your natural language (english for me).

If you did it correctly, you could easily pick whatever programming language you wanted and type it up. Most of the time your errors were just typos, and not logic errors.

Re:Way back in the dark ages... (1)

Saethan (2725367) | about 9 months ago | (#44373617)

We did this when I started college in 2005. One class was pure flow charts and Warnier/Orr Diagrams(and the professor of the class wrote the book for the class, so, generally, he was right), the next class we had to diagram out all our C programs before writing a line of code. Then we finally got into OO programming and the diagrams kinda went out the window.

the troll is strong with this one (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373445)

I wonder if Ingy stopped for a minute to think why people create different programming languages. They sure did it to make things harder for programmers right? Who would think that non ordinary language features might help anyone do his work better / quicker / use less resources?

Why is this idiot in the front page?

He says people get religious with programming languages. Keeping with the metaphor, this guy is a crazy iconoclast that will dynamite the Budhas in Afghanistan or all art in the Byzantine empire just because "he doesn't get it"

now get off my lawn

Re:the troll is strong with this one (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374281)

Being a perl programmer he has heard of the Tao of programming. He is repackaging the philosophy as his own and renaming it Acmeism.

From The Tao of Programming (4, Funny)

BenSchuarmer (922752) | about 9 months ago | (#44373481)

The Tao gave birth to machine language. Machine language gave birth to the assembler.

The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages.

Each language has its purpose, however humble. Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao.

But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.

Re: From The Tao of Programming (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373599)

Or embrace COBOL if you want a good state government IS job making ObamaCare changes to 40-year-old healthcare programs.

We are all... (0)

Virtucon (127420) | about 9 months ago | (#44373483)

Dumber for watching that vid! What a piece of drivel! All that was missing was fucking Sitar music..

I can say this in a Kathy Bates accent "Ingy döt Net is da debil!"

Most computer programmers learn one programming la (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373509)

Most computer programmers learn one programming language.

Utter, insulting, nonsense.

Re:Most computer programmers learn one programming (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374259)

It depends on what you mean by "learn". If you consider it to mean grasping the basics and banging out some code with the reference book by your side, then I've "learned" a lot of languages. If you consider it to mean developing an understanding of the obscure points and having enough expertise to navigate an unusual stumbling block in five minutes that might confuse a journeyman for days, then I've really only learned one. Also, I've had one as my primary for a few years and then gotten away from it. I would consider my knowledge there to be so rusty that I would be back to beginner level.

In other words, if you approach the semantics in a certain way I think he's right. Most programmers have dabbled in dozens of languages; but dabbling isn't necessarily what he means by "learn".

Summary for the time-constrained (2)

OscarGunther (96736) | about 9 months ago | (#44373517)

I actually listened to the whole thing (and that's a few minutes of my life I wish to have back) and he seems to be focused on scripting languages -- PERL, Javascript, PHP, etc. I'll save you a few minutes: he wants us all to focus our dev efforts on only those language features that are common across his in-scope languages. Further, once you've written something in your favorite scripting language, you should port that "gift" to the other in-scope languages to give your "gift" the widest possible distribution.

In short, Acmeism consists of a quintupling of your workload by asking you to port everything you write multiple times. The whole language evangelism thing apparently bugs him and he's opting out.

Re:Summary for the time-constrained (1)

idontgno (624372) | about 9 months ago | (#44373573)

Irony: opting out of language evangelism by loudly evangelizing language neutrality.

Put that in your unspecified recreational pharmaceutical apparatus and consume it, Alanis Morissette!

Re:Summary for the time-constrained (1)

ZombieBraintrust (1685608) | about 9 months ago | (#44373977)

Sounds like he doesn't have an employer. No way my boss would let me code something 4 times just so its language neutral. I think its a good idea not to go into the weeds of a programing language.

Re:Summary for the time-constrained (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374545)

No, he is (to the best of my knowledge) currently employed and has been employed for the great majority of at least the past ten years.

Acmeism.org quote.. (1)

N0Man74 (1620447) | about 9 months ago | (#44373561)

Most computer programmers learn one programming language.

I think the technical term usually referred to those programmers is "unemployed". It could be argued that other acceptable terms are, "lazy", "dinosaurs", "students", and "People who switched to a major like Business or Human Resources after they realized Comp Sci was too tough for them."

I don't know a single good programmer who only knows 1 language... Many I know will try to at least get familiarized with a new language 1 or 2 years.

Comparing knowing a number of computer languages to a number of spoken languages is absurd.

Two computer languages is probably closer to the difference in writing a novel in English vs a screenplay in English. It's mostly format and structure for most languages.

Re:Acmeism.org quote.. (1)

dkleinsc (563838) | about 9 months ago | (#44373643)

It's mostly format and structure for most languages.

Not quite: For wildly different families of languages, there's significantly different structures. For example, if you're proficient in Python, switching to Ruby isn't that big a deal, but switching to Haskell is challenging.

Re:Acmeism.org quote.. (1)

SleazyRidr (1563649) | about 9 months ago | (#44374377)

Kinda like spoken languages. Knowing one romantic language and learning another is much easier than trying to learn an Asian language.

Re:Acmeism.org quote.. (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 9 months ago | (#44373861)

Actually one can make a decent living knowing almost nothing but the Microsoft "stack". It's not exactly "one language", but pretty close.

(And I am not saying it's pleasant, only that it's fairly common.)

Re:Acmeism.org quote.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374291)

Actually one can make a decent living knowing almost nothing but the Microsoft "stack". It's not exactly "one language", but pretty close.

(And I am not saying it's pleasant, only that it's fairly common.)

I haven't done it myself, but living off the Microsoft C# stack doesn't sound a too bad career to me. There's also a lot of jobs available.

Re:Acmeism.org quote.. (1)

neminem (561346) | about 9 months ago | (#44374403)

It's really not. It's a super pretty language. And if you did ever have to leave, the migration path to Java seems pretty easy, just depressing, because Java is like C# only with all the pretty replaced with ugly.

(Though if you're doing anything web-related, it's not *really* just the Microsoft stack anyway. The backend might be Microsoft stack, but the UI still generally hits tons of Javascript. You're probably going to use tons of Javascript in any web site regardless of backend.)

Re:Acmeism.org quote.. (1)

sensei moreh (868829) | about 9 months ago | (#44373987)

Even I know more than one programming language, and I'm not even sure I qualify as a good programmer (my first professional research publication included a horrible piece of spaghetti code written in HP BASIC for the HP 9845).

A Perl/Unix Way of Thinking (5, Informative)

srollyson (1184197) | about 9 months ago | (#44373639)

For those who don't know, Ingy is a fairly prolific Perl developer [1]. The position he espouses here is quite typical of folks developing modern Perl. The crux of it is that it is better to provide an interface or API for a smaller bit of code that is easily spoken with than one tucked away in the bowels of a massive framework that's tied to a specific language. This position is really a reiteration of Ken Thompson's Rule of Modularity within the Unix Philsophy [2].

To me, this is a noble design goal because it allows developers to use the programming languages they're comfortable with and/or those that best fit the task at hand. I feel that this general principle has been the guiding force behind Google developing Protocol Buffers [3] and Facebook developing Thrift [4]. Software seems easier to build in small pieces that interoperate than if the developers try to build a monolithic and homogenous system all in one go.

It saddens me to see so many folks dismiss this position as a "fad" when it's one of the points to the open source movement.

  1. https://metacpan.org/author/INGY [metacpan.org]
  2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy [wikipedia.org]
  3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Buffers [wikipedia.org]
  4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Thrift [wikipedia.org]

Re:A Perl/Unix Way of Thinking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373723)

/aol

Re:A Perl/Unix Way of Thinking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373941)

if what you are saying is what he meant, he communicated it very very poorly. What I get from that vid is that he doesnt want people to use language specific features, which is orthogonal to modularity / lego blocks.

Re:A Perl/Unix Way of Thinking (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374083)

With the exception of people who work in MS languages or on MS OSes, I thought this was pretty standard. What always bothers me about Windows is that everything is a monolithic executable and that mentality tends to extend to the developers one such a system. This is further reenforced in by the fact that MS OSes haven't really shipped with a "standard" scripting language until, recently (if you call PowerScript standard). Windows is also very tied to the user interface. You're more likely to find someone on Windows using a macro language that can push buttons on a GUI than someone who can write scripts.

Yep, when I do find someone that uses Perl or scripting on Windows, they're usually from a unix background. I've only met one Windows person who used scripting extensively and he used Batch Command Language.

Funny most posts... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373701)

There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

Acme already exists...it's called BSD/Linux/POSIX (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373725)

First language I learned was BASIC, like a lot of people. Then I picked up C++, Pascal and Objective C in high school and college. Once I got out into the real world, there were other languages I absolutely had to learn on the job, such as Java, SQL and C#. Along the way, I picked up Perl and Python since these two languages are the Swiss army knives in my toolbox.

Lately, I have found the only time I actually delve back to write anything in C++ or Objective C is because I absolutely need to be closer to the metal. Otherwise, I'm writing it in Python or Perl. I know that there is a lot of debate between these two languages. I like them both, and I have found it to my advantage to keep both available.

As far as the "Acme-ization" effect...I've been doing this ever since I fired up my first BSD box many many years ago. Bash or Perl make it so very easy to create a quick workflow of existing tools. And if you don't have a tool to do what you need, you get down to thumbtacks and write one, and then fit it into your workflow. Truly the first Rapid Application Development Framework before RoR was an itch in daddy's pants.

@$@#$ or get off the pot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373765)

Cool bro, go ahead and go nuts. #$## There is nothing worst in the programming world then the "Intermediate Developer". Lets use the same language to handle raw sensor data, stateless web applications and statistical and data transformation in wholly different contextes. Hell coffescript compiles to such nice debuggable code and i cannot be bothered to learn all these "languages". But i prefer Dadaism 4.5.

Ingy döt Net tells how Acmeism.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44373833)

As soon as I saw the title I thought this must be another sterling example of "news for nerds" presented by the wonderful mind of none other than Timothy.

Acme Acne (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#44374317)

I read it Acmeism first ... it made perfect sense.

This thread reminds me of Autsin Powers (1)

imatter (2749965) | about 9 months ago | (#44374363)

There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch. - Nigel Powers
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