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Apple Retailer Facing Class Action Suit Over Employee Bag Checks

Unknown Lamer posted about a year ago | from the unpaid-labor dept.

Businesses 353

aitikin writes "Former Apple employees say the company requires workers to stand around without pay for up to 30 minutes a day while waiting for managers to search their bags for stolen merchandise." The filing. It looks pretty illegal: mandatory unpaid checks of personal belongings before and after work and all breaks.

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The incredible irony of.. (4, Insightful)

assemblerex (1275164) | about a year ago | (#44420207)

hiring people to work in your store who can't afford the product. Ford paid his workers well so they could afford his card. Apple store has to search it's workers to prevent theft. Maybe if they paid them better they wouldn't have to worry about this.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (5, Interesting)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year ago | (#44420219)

hiring people to work in your store who can't afford the product.

Ford paid his workers well so they could afford his card.

Apple store has to search it's workers to prevent theft. Maybe if they paid them better they wouldn't have to worry about this.

well, they're geniuses, so they might get sneaky!
how they think this isn't unpaid overtime though... it's pretty fucking obvious.

also, who is checking the managers bags? they must be managers only in title because I've never seen a real manager do shit like bag checks.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420421)

> also, who is checking the managers bags?

Obviously, VP of Bag Checking and Chief Bag Checking Officer, duh.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420457)

Given that this is only at two stores, I would bet heavily that this is two managers' policy, not Apple's. Certainly at previous crappy jobs (not at apple) I've met managers that have thought it was entirely okay to try and make you turn up half an hour early for things like team briefs and bag searches. The head office HR department had a shit fit, and said it was nothing to do with the company when I phoned up and suggested that that violated minimum wage law.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420241)

Apple just want "da muney". Pay as little as possible in salaries, taxes, or any other expenses. I really hope this bites them, and other multi-national mega-companies that are strangling the world's economy to death.

capcha: "razors" .. i wish them an accident with a very sharp one.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (3, Insightful)

show me altoids (1183399) | about a year ago | (#44420245)

Too bad I don't have mod points, I get them very often. Treating your employees like criminals is stupid. And you are 100% right about Ford, but for better or worse the world is different now in many ways, Apple's employees are a tiny part of the total population.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (1)

SuperTechnoNerd (964528) | about a year ago | (#44420319)

Treating your employees like criminals is stupid
I fail to see the difference.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (2, Funny)

SuperTechnoNerd (964528) | about a year ago | (#44420339)

OOPS I meant to say:
Treating your employees like criminals is stupid
. Our government spies on us every day.
I fail to see the difference

Re:The incredible irony of.. (4, Insightful)

Artifakt (700173) | about a year ago | (#44420427)

The difference is, the people in government are supposed to be our employees, not us theirs, so it's even worse.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (5, Insightful)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420499)

you are 100% right about Ford, but for better or worse the world is different now in many ways

Corporations now expect a profit margin so large, the only way to make it happens is to produce their products in low income countries... very VERY sad.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (4, Insightful)

Sockatume (732728) | about a year ago | (#44420293)

The Apple Store wages are plenty to buy a lot of products they sell. Not everything, but I doubt that 90% of electronics store employees could buy the most expensive 20% of the products on sale either. That's besides the point because retail theft isn't about "oh, I can't afford this and want to own it" anyway. It's about "oh, I can resell this and supplement my income quite handsomely". Most of the stuff people shoplift from supermarkets (staff or customers) isn't stuff that's very overall expensive, but stuff that's easy to steal and fences well like batteries and razors. High value per unit volume, lots of volume available, fungible.

Apple basically has no reason to be doing these checks because there's nothing about their employees or product that makes it any more likely to be stolen than anywhere else. They hardly keep anything out on the shopfloor for deus' sake.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (5, Informative)

jjohnson (62583) | about a year ago | (#44420309)

Most loss in retail is employee theft. When I worked at a department store, the loss prevention guys were at the doors at closing, letting employees out and checking their bags. When they were patrolling the floor during business hours, they kept a closer eye on employees than on customers. That's just a fact of life no matter what your retail segment is. In fact, I'd bet it's worse for Apple stores because their products are small, easily stolen, and fetch much higher prices than razor blades.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (2)

YukariHirai (2674609) | about a year ago | (#44420537)

Most loss in retail is employee theft.

That's just a fact of life no matter what your retail segment is.

Not necessarily. It may depend on the size of the store and how it's managed, but in my more than a decade of working in retail the shoplifting has been by customers, not staff.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420295)

it's just a LITTLE bit easier to smuggle an iPod out of the store than a car. Or in more realistic terms, a muffler.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (2)

sjames (1099) | about a year ago | (#44420359)

One piece at a time?

Re:The incredible irony of.. (2)

oobayly (1056050) | about a year ago | (#44420463)

It worked for Radar O'Reilly in the 50s.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (1)

sjames (1099) | about a year ago | (#44420519)

And for Johnny Cash.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (4, Interesting)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420523)

We caught an employee stealing many $K worth of specialized maple sap pumps at my job. There is no use for them nor black market for them (tracability and all). I would be more inclined to believe most stealing is caused by cleptomania than poverty. After all, all he stole was not worth more than 6 weeks of pay, and he could not move the stuff (we got it all back...).

Re:The incredible irony of.. (5, Informative)

0123456 (636235) | about a year ago | (#44420357)

Ford paid his workers well so they could afford his card.

No, he didn't. He didn't even pay them well so they could afford his cars.

Ford paid them well because he was suffering horribly from employee turnover as they worked for him long enough to learn their job and then moved on to a better-paid job elsewhere. Increasing their wages lead to a dramatic reduction in employee turnover, and increased productivity enough to justify the extra pay.

I've no idea why this urban legend continues to flourish when it's so clearly retarded. If he'd paid them more so they could afford his cars, they were at least as likely to spend the money with a competitor, or spend it on something more useful to them.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (2)

91degrees (207121) | about a year ago | (#44420513)

I've no idea why this urban legend continues to flourish when it's so clearly retarded.

Wasn't it simply because Henry Ford himself used that as a justification.

I have an idea (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420541)

I've no idea why X when it's so clearly retarded.

It's because retarded people naturally gravitate to retarded ideas. Apple haters are naturally retarded, being unable to process any information that is not negative about Apple, therefore it is quite natural that the Apple Hater would propagate a retarded myth.

It's nice of you to try and fix things but Apple Haters cannot be fixed; they are immutable.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (4, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | about a year ago | (#44420697)

I've no idea why this urban legend continues to flourish when it's so clearly retarded. If he'd paid them more so they could afford his cars, they were at least as likely to spend the money with a competitor

Highly unlikely, a few years back I was doing some work for Volvo and in the parking lot there was a rather overwhelming share of Volvos. Sure, nobody expects you to sell or scrap an existing car that works well but somehow I don't think a Ford worker arriving in a new non-Ford car would get very well received by neither coworkers nor management, it's a pretty clear message you wouldn't want to eat your own dog food. That they could use the money for other things sure, but if they bought a car I'd say it was a very safe bet it'd be a Ford.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (2)

Kjella (173770) | about a year ago | (#44420401)

Maybe if they paid them better they wouldn't have to worry about this.

You expect people in a jewelry store to afford all the jewelry in the store? If you handle one of Intel's E7-8870 processors it sells for $4616 in bulk, a pretty solid post-tax income if you could say it broke and sell it on eBay instead. Sure bring out the Apple hate but I'm thinking they DO have to worry about this almost regardless of how much they pay them. Never mind that I've had a friend that's been a grocery store manager, even for absurdly small sums you have employee theft. As long as they think they can get away with it, it seems some have no problem making themselves a crook over petty change.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (0, Flamebait)

mjwx (966435) | about a year ago | (#44420467)

hiring people to work in your store who can't afford the product. Ford paid his workers well so they could afford his card. Apple store has to search it's workers to prevent theft. Maybe if they paid them better they wouldn't have to worry about this.

Ford made the car affordable and raised workers wages. Apple has done the opposite.

Re:The incredible irony of.. (1)

c0lo (1497653) | about a year ago | (#44420637)

It's not affordability, it's fashion [nymag.com]

Sounds like a slam-dunk (5, Informative)

billstewart (78916) | about a year ago | (#44420225)

If Apple's actions are being described correctly, that's time that clearly belongs to be on the clock.

Re:Sounds like a slam-dunk (1)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420527)

THIS!

Why don't they just ban the bags? (0)

epyT-R (613989) | about a year ago | (#44420235)

Why don't they just ban the bags from the stores in the first place? A lot easier to enforce, a lot less time consuming, and a lot less legally dubious. I wonder if Apple management just enjoys lawsuits as well as any opportunity to violate the privacy of others.

Re:Why don't they just ban the bags? (1)

Architect_sasyr (938685) | about a year ago | (#44420267)

I don't care what they say about me, just make sure they spell my name right! - P.T. Barnum



*Disclaimer* I may not be quoting directly/ correctly from memory :)

Re:Why don't they just ban the bags? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420289)

I think executions at the spot on styled iGallows controlled trough the cloud. Alternatively guillotine wiith an iPhone interface. Or just throw random people to the lions and put it on tv. The way justice system and state in general tend to work this little entertainment is the best we can hope for anyway.

Re:Why don't they just ban the bags? (1)

Sockatume (732728) | about a year ago | (#44420337)

Depending on where the Apple store is relative to your home/other jobs/schooling, employees might not relish the thought of going all the way to work and back every day with nothing but the contents of their pockets and wearing their work outfit.

Re:Why don't they just ban the bags? (1)

epyT-R (613989) | about a year ago | (#44420385)

I don't think they should be searching or banning the bags, but it would've been easier from their standpoint to just ban them. Their policy exposes them to unneeded legal risk.

Re:Why don't they just ban the bags? (2)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year ago | (#44420441)

I don't think they should be searching or banning the bags, but it would've been easier from their standpoint to just ban them. Their policy exposes them to unneeded legal risk.

the policy is so that the "managers" can feel like bigshots. it's not about easy. that's why they went along with it despite it being illegal.

Re:Why don't they just ban the bags? (5, Insightful)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about a year ago | (#44420445)

Depending on where the Apple store is relative to your home/other jobs/schooling, employees might not relish the thought of going all the way to work and back every day with nothing but the contents of their pockets and wearing their work outfit.

They don't need to ban bringing the bag to work, just ban bringing it into the inventory control area. They could provide a locker room where people can lock up their bag before their shift, outside the inventory control point (the place where they were inspecting the bags). This is common practice at plenty of retailers, warehouses, and manufacturers. Try this: Go to Walmart and walk around. Okay, now how many employees do you see walking around the store with backpacks, purses etc? Answer: zero. They are in the locker room.

another reason to patronize an Apple VAR (1, Funny)

Presto Vivace (882157) | about a year ago | (#44420237)

I never go to Apple stores.

Re:another reason to patronize an Apple VAR (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420269)

Trouble is that I'm yet to find a VAR that does the VA bit of the acronym.

Re:another reason to patronize an Apple VAR (2)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420573)

WTF is a VAR? GIHA (God I Hate Acronyms...)

Not surprising. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420251)

I've worked at a few retail companies that do this. CVS was the biggest offender. The CVS I worked at has the only cameras in the building facing employees, and a mandatory bag check on the way out, every shift. Switching out at 2:30 and ready to go home? Lets hope your store isn't busy or you will be sitting there for a while.

Re:Not surprising. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420373)

Half Price Books does that too. Cameras mostly all pointing at the employees, while valuable books go out the door stuck under customers' shirts.

Re:Not surprising. (1)

viperidaenz (2515578) | about a year ago | (#44420539)

You can't put cameras under peoples shirts. Well you could but you'd get in even bigger trouble.

Class action suit vs a corporation (1)

Kartu (1490911) | about a year ago | (#44420263)

Considering it is now legal to prohibit class actions in EULAs, it won't take long to put that into most job contracts. At least for Apple.
But then IANAL, so pardon my ignorance if EULAs are somehow less restrictive.

Re:Class action suit vs a corporation (1)

SnarfQuest (469614) | about a year ago | (#44420287)

Bit, to be like most software EULAa, they will have to agree to it before they can read it. Just like a congressional law.

Re:Class action suit vs a corporation (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420317)

if you ever read those bans they just say they wanna go to a arbiter first at that point the decision can be taken to court. and really if such a eula was put to the test im pretty sure it would get shot down fast.

Re:Class action suit vs a corporation (2)

Gogo0 (877020) | about a year ago | (#44420331)

not sure when that happened, but about seven years ago i was a security guard and we werent paid for the time we werent working our station. approximately thirty minutes both before and after work spent gearing up, signing in/out and unloading our firearm, and driving to/from the site to relieve the previous team was free time to the company. we had a three-week paid training period prior to working, and frequently were let out early. site supervisor kept bringing that up, said that things 'evened out'.

after i had moved onto another job, someone filed a class-action lawsuit against the company (alaska native corporation) and i received nearly $1000 compensation (lawyers got over half of it -but not bad for something i didnt have to go to bat for).

though mind that if it is indeed illegal to file a class action suit if prohibited by your corporate overlord, it is still legal to file a complaint, compile evidence to demonstrate the problem persists, and file your own lawsuit. someone had to go through those steps for the class action suit, its not unreasonable (though admittedly a huge PITA) to do it oneself. for the record, i think its inane to disallow class action suits when individual suits are allowed.

Typical (1)

jjohnson (62583) | about a year ago | (#44420277)

2/3rds of loss in retail is from employee theft. At a place like Apple outlets, where the products are small, expensive, and easily turned over for cash to friends or pawn shops, I'd imagine it's even higher. Not that this fact excuses forcing unpaid overtime on your workers, but I'm not surprised they're doing bag checks.

Re:Typical (5, Insightful)

mjwx (966435) | about a year ago | (#44420415)

2/3rds of loss in retail is from employee theft. At a place like Apple outlets, where the products are small, expensive, and easily turned over for cash to friends or pawn shops, I'd imagine it's even higher. Not that this fact excuses forcing unpaid overtime on your workers, but I'm not surprised they're doing bag checks.

The bag check isn't the problem.

Employers reserve that right even in countries with real employer protection. What isn't Kosher is the fact they have to do it unpaid. If an employer wants to screen you on your way out that time must be paid for by the employer.

Same for when an employee takes a break. In retail environments your breaks are timed (I've even heard they are even unpaid in the US), so a screening should not be permitted to detract from that time.

I work in a secure facility, I clock on from the first the moment I enter the building. Even if it takes me 5 minutes to get to my desk. Then again I work in a country that punishes employers for taking advantage of employees.

Re:Typical (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420591)

What country is this - I'd love to move there.

Re:Typical (1)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420611)

I work in a country that punishes employers for taking advantage of employees.

May I cordially ask which country is it? (Germany is my 1st bet...)

Re:Typical (2)

Kjella (173770) | about a year ago | (#44420641)

May I cordially ask which country is it? (Germany is my 1st bet...)

From his posting history I'd say Australia is a safe bet - but same here in Norway. Currently they don't have a wall clock where I work so I'm awarded five minutes on the online check-in to compensate me for the time to take the elevator, get to my office, log in to my computer and sign in. So if I check in at 8:05 AM wall time, it registers as if I arrived at 8 AM sharp. First place I've worked that actually have a clock system though, usually I've just filled out time sheets manually.

I have no sympathy (2, Interesting)

cwebster (100824) | about a year ago | (#44420285)

No sympathy whatsoever.

As an airline pilot I do not get paid while I wait in line and am checked by the TSA. I do not get paid while I wait in line for customs. I do not get paid while I get the flight paperwork and verify it is safe and legal. I do not get paid while preparing and inspecting the airplane for flight. I do not get paid while I wait for everyone to get on the plane and coordinate with gate, ramp, fuel, maintenance and catering to ensure an on-time departure.

Re:I have no sympathy (4, Insightful)

Jiro (131519) | about a year ago | (#44420343)

I would imagine that aiurplane pilots are not paid by the hour, which these guys are.

Re:I have no sympathy (5, Insightful)

victorhooi (830021) | about a year ago | (#44420351)

Hi,

Hmm, I believe airline pilots are a little bit different to other hourly employees.

They're paid for time "in-flight" - which is why you probably don't get paid for say, the TSA security checks. However, apparently there's a minimum base amount they're paid, even if they sit around doing nothing.

So we're not exactly comparing apples to apples here (that, and I suspect pilot salaries probably aren't exactly the same as retail employee salaries).

Last time I heard, airline attendants were the same (http://mentalfloss.com/article/31044/10-shocking-secrets-flight-attendants).

Cheers,
Victor

Re:I have no sympathy (2)

BZ (40346) | about a year ago | (#44420449)

> and I suspect pilot salaries probably aren't exactly
> the same as retail employee salaries

Not exactly, but closer than you might think. A look at the numbers: http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/06/16/pilot-pay-want-to-know-how-much-your-captain-earns/ [wsj.com]

The upshot is that variability is high, but for junior pilots pay is between about $20k (for regional airlines) and $50k (highest starting pay at a major ariline). Average major airline starting pay is $36k. Of course pilots fresh out of school don't get those major airline jobs.

Retail salaries also vary widely. Minimum wage is 7.25/hr, which comes out to $14,500/yr if we assume 40-hour weeks and 2 weeks unpaid vacation. On the other hand, Costco pays $11.50 an hour for a starting salary: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/03/06/of-course-costco-supports-a-higher-minimum-wage-it-already-pays-above-it/ [forbes.com] and average pay for Costco employees is around $45k (see ), which is admittedly rather high for retail.

Re:I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420543)

What's your vector, Victor?

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

dragonsomnolent (978815) | about a year ago | (#44420355)

Question, as an airline pilot are you given a flat salary, paid per mile flown, or per hour at the controls?

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

julesh (229690) | about a year ago | (#44420361)

No sympathy whatsoever.

As an airline pilot I do not get paid while I wait in line and am checked by the TSA. I do not get paid while I wait in line for customs. I do not get paid while I get the flight paperwork and verify it is safe and legal. I do not get paid while preparing and inspecting the airplane for flight. I do not get paid while I wait for everyone to get on the plane and coordinate with gate, ramp, fuel, maintenance and catering to ensure an on-time departure.

I though airline pilots were paid an annual salary, not an hourly rate...?

Re:I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420453)

Not to mention that the daily pilot salary is probably getting close to what these apple employees get in a week...

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

BZ (40346) | about a year ago | (#44420459)

Airline pilots are typically paid an hourly rate, but only for flight hours. It's pretty messed up.

Re:I have no sympathy (2)

agendi (684385) | about a year ago | (#44420369)

Comparing salaried pilot to paid by the hour retail floor monkey. Totally the same thing. For what it's worth, I have sympathy for them and for your work conditions as you describe them. I think it sucks that you aren't paid time spent waiting on the TSA or flight paperwork etc. I think it is odd though that you complain about off-the-clock working, as they do, and you don't think it's okay for them to try to redress this?

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420371)

As a regular business traveller, I do get paid for all those things.

This is why, when you announce a three-hour flight delay, I just sit back and think of all the overtime I'm making.

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420647)

THIS is why we can't have nice things... ;-)

You're wrong on all counts. (3, Interesting)

raehl (609729) | about a year ago | (#44420397)

As an airline pilot, you've (well, your union, on your behalf) negotiated a contract with the airline where your pay is based on getting the plane where it needs to go, and you are paid for all activities necessary to accomplish the task for which you are paid for.

Also known as, AIRLINE PILOTS ARE NOT HOURLY EMPLOYEES.

I am sure that, once you add up all the time you spend on all of your job-related activities, your wage + time and a half for hours over 40 per week, greatly exceeds the minimum wage.

Just like every other salaried employee who doesn't make any more money when it's crunch time and you have to pull 10-12 hour days to get shit done. It's called a job description, and being paid for the job (get plane from A to B) instead of the time (you were in airports/planes from 9 AM to 8 PM.)

If you don't like the terms of your contract, either renegotiate it so you are paid by the hour instead of by the trip (or flight hour), or work somewhere else. I hear Apple stores are hiring.

Note that Apple stores probably don't have benefits like medical, dental, or free flights on any domestic carrier on a space-available basis, and your hourly wage will plummet vs. your flight-hour wage, but at least you'll get a slight increase on your paycheck if customs takes a little longer to clear!

Re:You're wrong on all counts. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420657)

I'll just leave this here...

http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/professional-pilot-salaries.html

Re:I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420409)

Doing paperwork, preparations, and inspections sounds a lot like work. You do all that for free, in addition to waiting around for all that other shit for free?
No wonder pilots don't make any money. They're retarded.

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

mjwx (966435) | about a year ago | (#44420431)

No sympathy whatsoever.

As an airline pilot I do not get paid while I wait in line and am checked by the TSA. I do not get paid while I wait in line for customs. I do not get paid while I get the flight paperwork and verify it is safe and legal. I do not get paid while preparing and inspecting the airplane for flight. I do not get paid while I wait for everyone to get on the plane and coordinate with gate, ramp, fuel, maintenance and catering to ensure an on-time departure.

Do you get paid by the hour?

If not these duties are part of your regular salary. Get a better union and negotiate

If so, get a better union and make sure you get paid for it.

I've got no sympathy for an employee who wont stand up for themselves. At least these retail staffers are willing to fight for fair pay and conditions.

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

lxs (131946) | about a year ago | (#44420433)

I bet that when you do get paid it's far more than minimum wage, which is compensation for your terrible inconvenience. Besides, your lack of sympathy for people with worse jobs than you makes you a selfish dick.

Re:I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420443)

Let's just read this comment for what it is: Mr. C. Webster letting everyone know he's an airline pilot. Mr. C. Webster has a really cool, important job and he's a really cool, important person. Not like the poor schmucks working by the hour in the Apple Store. Mr. C. Webster has Made It.

Re:I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420451)

Quit wining bitch, you get paid too much already.

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420655)

Go and yell it through the cockpit door next time you fly, or get surgery for all that matters (both have your life in their hands after all)... Let me know how it goes for you.

Re:I have no sympathy (4, Insightful)

rtb61 (674572) | about a year ago | (#44420545)

That is like saying "I'm a whiny gutless arse hole" because "I'm a whiny gutless arse hole" every one deserves to be like "whiny gutless arse holes". Sorry pal that's now how it works in a fair society. If an employer makes demands upon your time, you deserve to be fairly compensated for it.

I have sympathy for anyone who gets ripped off by their employer or in any way abused. It's pretty lame to be a cowardly victim and then thinks it fair for every one to get abused that way. Gee's dude I also hope they grope your genitals, radiate you arse and probe you upon a regular basis because it sounds like they should as for the rest of humanity any employer that treats it's employees like that deserves to be run out of business by vengeful unions.

Re: I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420547)

That sucks because it incentivizes you to cut corners. Bt then air Canada Jazz removed all the life vests on their planes to save a few bucks on weight, so I guess that's industry for you.

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

mendax (114116) | about a year ago | (#44420559)

I believe that you are paid far more than the lowly Apple Store clerk, unless you are one of those pilots who work for one of those awful regional airlines. I find your lack of sympathy to be quite callous and arrogant. But I am hardly in a position to judge you.

Re:I have no sympathy (2)

Kjella (173770) | about a year ago | (#44420589)

No sympathy whatsoever. As an airline pilot I do not get paid while I wait in line and am checked by the TSA. I do not get paid while I wait in line for customs. I do not get paid while I get the flight paperwork and verify it is safe and legal. I do not get paid while preparing and inspecting the airplane for flight. I do not get paid while I wait for everyone to get on the plane and coordinate with gate, ramp, fuel, maintenance and catering to ensure an on-time departure.

With all due respect, it's the flight industry that's got this backwards not the other way around. Is it your fault if the plane has a problem and you're grounded for half an hour extra? No, you're on the job, in your job uniform, ready to do your job but the risk is now transferred to you so now you're working half an hour "overtime" for free. That's not how it should be. I'm a strict believer in the "any time spent at work is work" principle, you should be able to clock in when you walk in the door (or paid from the required attendance time to pass that door) and clock out when you walk out the door. And for a pilot I consider that to be entering the airport, the time required to get to your pilot's seat and from your pilot's seat to the exit and any part you spend idling in your seat is downtime at work, plain and simple.

Obviously the hourly compensation would change to reflect that, in itself the pay might be the same. But now it's the employer's job to minimize the whole time you spend on your job, not just the "active" time. They take the risk of any delays, now they're wasting their money instead of your time. That is how it should be, but being such an international business as it is they've been able to evade many regulations simply by moving crew to work from whatever jurisdiction offers the least worker protection and is thus cheaper.

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

FuzzNugget (2840687) | about a year ago | (#44420593)

Uh, airline piloting is a wee bit different than retail.

Salaried positions often give you more freedom and flexibility, a perk which is offset by additional occupational obligations. If you think you should be paid overtime for those additional requirements (and I'm not disagreeing with you), you or your union needs to negotiate a better contract.

Retail is generally a wage position: the job says $start-o'clock to $end-o'clock, those are your hours, anything more is overtime.

Oh, and you get to fly planes, not deal with idiots in a shitty retail position.

Re:I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420609)

No sympathy whatsoever.

As an airline pilot I do not get paid while I wait in line and am checked by the TSA. I do not get paid while I wait in line for customs. I do not get paid while I get the flight paperwork and verify it is safe and legal. I do not get paid while preparing and inspecting the airplane for flight. I do not get paid while I wait for everyone to get on the plane and coordinate with gate, ramp, fuel, maintenance and catering to ensure an on-time departure.

So because you allow yourself to be taken advantage of everyone else should to? Can you clarify your logic?

Re:I have no sympathy (1)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420627)

I know airline pilots are vastly underpaid, and mostly work out of passion. I am the same in y own field... But it is not a reason to let the whole society go down the spiral of the lowest denominator. If you want to have some shards of equality and fairness in your job one day, NOW is the time to take a stand.

Re:I have no sympathy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420693)

Oh look it's a race to the bottom. i wonder who'll win. Oh right, everyone loses.

Ubuntu LiveCD: Bring to Apple and Microsoft Stores (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420297)

bring it and with their permission test it on their demo systems. engage in conversation with associates about Linux, especially Ubuntu[1] and speak clear enough for customers around you to hear and understand. you might want to wear a Linux shirt, carry a Linux mug, and/or more merch.

You might mention on how you don't need a Linux store because Ubuntu[1] Linux is free to install on as many computers as you wish and you never have to pay for it.

[1] or your favorite distro, but Ubuntu may be more familiar to customers.

Re:Ubuntu LiveCD: Bring to Apple and Microsoft Sto (0)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420667)

Your efforts are well received... but vastly misdirected. DO NOT EXPECT MEASURABLE RESULTS FROM IT.

BS (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420299)

I'd be okay with that if crApple actually paid them, but still I would look at crApple harshly for not trusting the employees.. No payment I hope crApple takes it hard for this one. I don't even see how such a thing is legal..

Re:BS (2)

maliqua (1316471) | about a year ago | (#44420329)

I don't even see how such a thing is legal..

i think the whole point is that it is not legal

Re:BS (1)

gagol (583737) | about a year ago | (#44420675)

So... do you install crApps on your iPhoney?

Don't like then don't work here (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420305)

Simple as can be. I hear Samsung stores are hiring. You sound just right for Samsung. Losers!

hey where are all the apple assholes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420311)

from the other apple article today?

apple is glorious isnt it.

Evil Apple (1, Informative)

mendax (114116) | about a year ago | (#44420321)

In California, under state law it is very expensive for an employer to employ shenanigans like this. The fines can be quite large, the litigation can be quite expensive, and there is a potential for the employees to be paid wages while the issue is being resolved by the courts (at least as I understand the law). There is a reason why employers don't like California regulations, employees have the potential to grab the employer by the balls and twist and twist if the state EDD finds that the charges have merit.

Anyway, this case is just another example of just how evil Apple is as a company. It is unfortunate because I like its products (mostly) and I've owned several over the years.

Re:Evil Apple (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420347)

In California, under state law it is very expensive for an employer to employ shenanigans like this. The fines can be quite large, the litigation can be quite expensive, and there is a potential for the employees to be paid wages while the issue is being resolved by the courts (at least as I understand the law). There is a reason why employers don't like California regulations, employees have the potential to grab the employer by the balls and twist and twist if the state EDD finds that the charges have merit.

Anyway, this case is just another example of just how evil Apple is as a company. It is unfortunate because I like its products (mostly) and I've owned several over the years.

California has good labour laws, as good as they can get in the US of A.
What a pity that the State doesn't let Corporations abuse their employees.

But it's not about the hardware (2)

Vinegar Joe (998110) | about a year ago | (#44420323)

It's about that Apple "Experience"........

not surprising at all (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420367)

What do you expect from huge monopolistic corporations. Don't work for fascist scum.

Apple is just an Electronics Company (0, Troll)

tuppe666 (904118) | about a year ago | (#44420403)

This is the third story in a week, of Apple being an abusive employer, whether you are a top engineer, overworked factory worker, or minimum wage shop assistant. colour me surprised that the Apple treat profits over people.

The bottom line is Apples profits are down! again, its margins are shrinking, its sales are plummeting, its market share is down, its technical edge none existent are they really not seeing that moving manufacturing abroad, becoming a purely (arrogant with out substance) design(sic) company, paying literally zero tax.

Ironically I noticed in Harris Poll EquiTrend has Apple as coming out top for Brand of the Year distinctions in three categories - Computer, Tablet and Mobile Phone. All I could think is how irreparably damaged Apples old Techno Hippy Brand has been, and how actual Apples sales numbers reflect that.

This is Apples sales numbers http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q3fy13datasum.pdf [apple.com] and hoe they comparing at IDC (its only smartophones but Apple is becoming a one product company..the iphone) http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24239313/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24239313 [idc.com] The numbers speak for themselves.

Apple is not newsworthy

Re:Apple is just an Electronics Company (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about a year ago | (#44420621)

wow, you're like the anti-fanboy. Same as a fanboy, but negative.

Check bags after breaks??? (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | about a year ago | (#44420447)

Surely if you're going to steal something, you'd do it on company time.

Not really that surprising (1)

cbope (130292) | about a year ago | (#44420473)

When I worked at Tandy Computers in the late 80's at their manufacturing facility as a motherboard repair technician, they had a similar system to check employees as they left the facility. However, I recall that the time clock was AFTER the checkpoint, so you were being paid while standing in the queue waiting to be checked. This could take 10-20 minutes each shift, depending on how quickly you got to the queue. Most of the workers were relatively low pay, hourly production line workers.

I do think the way Apple stores are handling this is very unfair to employees. You cannot expect that employees come to work without any personal belongings at all, so banning bags is not an option. But, they should be paid while waiting for these checks. They could provide lockers in a secure area outside the "sales area" where employees leave their personal items while at work, and they do not have casual access to these lockers while working.

Best Buy in Los Angeles area (2)

twistedcubic (577194) | about a year ago | (#44420487)

At the West Hollywood Best Buy I saw employees being visually inspected by a manager as they exited the store single file after closing. At a Culver City Best Buy one of the employees told me they get searched. I didn't believe him until I saw it being done at another location. Pretty humiliating. Hopefully the kids who work there now realize this is not the type of job you want to do long term.

It could be worse. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420551)

At least they weren't strip searched like we were in prison.

Are they also suing to be paid to dress in the AM? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420583)

Say what? They have to wait 5 minutes (time from TFA) to be searched on the way in/out to prevent theft? And this search is a known, stated, posted, consistently-enforced policy? What's the basis of the complaint, 'cause I don't see one laid out here. (Hopefully I'm missing a good point, so I can sue my own employer for making me go through security checks on the way in and out of my place of employment without pay.)

Trust (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420661)

Apple trusts their own employee's less than it trusts its consumers.

he who has less gold breaks the rules (2)

epine (68316) | about a year ago | (#44420671)

Jan Wong [wikipedia.org]

In 2006, Wong attracted attention by imitating the work of Barbara Ehrenreich and going undercover as a cleaning lady in wealthy Toronto homes. While employed by the Globe and Mail as a reporter Jan Wong impersonated a maid and then wrote about her experiences in a five-part series on low-income living.

There were many social issues discussed in this series of articles, the majority of which I didn't agree with as framed. One issue she pointed out was that these barely-literate low-income scullery-scrubs few of whom had driver's licences were expected to haul vacuum cleaners through the Toronto metro system between jobs that were not as proximal as a modern UPS delivery route.

Brown Down: UPS Drivers Vs. The UPS Algorithm [fastcompany.com]

No, the scheduling algorithm employed by the scullery-scrub dispatch office involved chewing up small bits of paper and spitting them at a map, because they were getting away with NOT PAYING for the delivery of vacuum cleaners by their downtrodden and raw-fingered cleaning staff. Many of these barely-solvent workers were putting in eight hour on job sites, plus another four hours (unpaid) moving between job sites, toting equipment that wasn't even their own for less than the cost of delivering the equipment by any other business method.

Jan Wong could have gone to war over a clear violation of labour fairness, but she instead decided to do a lot of public hang-wringing over systemic issues unlikely to ever change.

It's Apple's job to politely inform their store managers that this violates accepted labour practice and to put an end to it as thoroughly as they do with unwelcome rumours about unfinished products.

I once spoke to an ex IBM employee in the early 1980s who said he left IBM because he could get anything done. His department was under such tight security that it took him an hour to get to his desk in the morning and another hour to leave it in the afternoon. I think part of that was fetching his work product from a secure area and returning it there again with an inspection. He was well paid for the whole ordeal, until it finally drove him nuts.

The rule in a democratic salary market is that time is money. Even if the money is too small to spit at from the perspective of the person writing the cheques.

An anecdote I liked from that series was the incident(s) where business owners tried to bully her out of using street parking in front of their stores (which they would prefer to see used by customers) on the presumption that she was timid and uneducated. It almost blew her cover confessing she knew how to drive in the hiring interview. I think she had to tell some huge sob story to make her desperation believable to take such a job as a person who could hold down a driver's licence.

self edit: s/could/couldn't (0)

epine (68316) | about a year ago | (#44420687)

... left IBM because he couldn't get anything done ...

Lameness severity is typically evaluated on a scale of 1 to 5, with higher numbers indicating a more significant degree of impairment. A 1 rating suggests a horse with a minor gait deficit, a 5 is "broken-legged" lame, indicating that the horse will not put weight on the affected leg. Initial assessment may include a visual check for outward injuries such as cuts or swelling, observation of a horse as it travels at different gaits, particularly the walk and trot. Flexion tests may also be performed, and hooves will be checked for signs of injury.

Currys UK (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44420681)

I worked in a Currys Wareshouse for approx 7 years, I was searched every time I left the warehouse (this was after clocking out) ......during peak times we were there most days for 45 mins after our shift!

Boring (2)

pbjones (315127) | about a year ago | (#44420701)

This is just a story about 2 stores, and my guess is that it's about paranoid managers who have lost stock in the past. No news here.

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