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QuakeCon 2013: Carmack On Next-Gen Console Hardware

Soulskill posted 1 year,29 days | from the developers-will-make-it-succeed-or-fail dept.

PlayStation (Games) 136

jones_supa writes "QuakeCon 2013 is running full tilt. John Carmack kicked off his speech by addressing the 'elephant in the room,' discussing the arrival of a new console generation to a crowd of attendees at the largely PC-focused event. He's optimistic about the coming console cycle, commenting that it's 'obviously going to be a good thing for gamers, developers, and an excellent thing for AMD.' John said he hasn't run quite enough tests on the hardware for the two consoles, but said they're both 'very close, and very good.' In his traditional long talk (watch on YouTube), Carmack also commented on Microsoft's always-on Kinect, its recently reversed DRM policies for the upcoming Xbox One, the death of optical media, and the state of handheld gaming."

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Little difference anymore between PC/console (3, Interesting)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455687)

Both the PS4 and Xbox One will have s86 architecture, and are essentially just heavily customized PC's (to the point where porting between PC and these consoles will be trivial). So is the distinction between console and PC even meaninful anymore? Aside from the control scheme and openess of software installation, there really isn't much difference.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455695)

oops...x86

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (3, Interesting)

Mike Mentalist (544984) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455759)

Nobody buys a console because they find the internal architecture interesting.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (3, Insightful)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455795)

No, but a common architecture will make it a helluva lot easier on developers, which should result in more and better games (which DO matter).

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456027)

A common architecture means that consoles will continue to hold back the progress of cross platform PC games. My current gaming rig is already an order of magnitude more powerful than either the XBone or PS4.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

Bengie (1121981) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456367)

The newer architectures are using newer designs that scale well. It should be trivial to just add better textures and increase special effects on the desktop version.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457697)

Better textures is only part of it and would be exactly the type of sloppy porting job I'm talking about. What about higher poly models, more objects on screen, better lighting, more advanced shaders, more accurate physics, smarter AI, larger environments, deeper gameplay and controls optimized for keyboard/mouse?

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44459013)

Dev here. Clearly you know absolutely nothing about software development.

All of those items you touched on can be designed in a way to be programmatically scalable. Many commercial engines are already designed to do so out of the box.

The new x86 console architecture is a godsend. We target a high end PC, scale back easy to change dynamic settings, compress/resize textures, and bake for consoles.

What is it that you're not getting here? This change in architecture benefits cross platform as much as possible, minus DRM bits. There is nothing short of making the system itself upgradable that could further balance the gaming spectrum. Yes the past generation halted ONE market from squeezing out another 25% visual fidelity. This generation won't suffer from that. In fact, PC gaming is about to benefit immensly by having to write better code optimized for mid end systems.

Your entire post is nonsense and buzzwords. In context, you are (thank goodness) completely mistaken.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44459573)

Yeah, you're not a dev because I'm a dev AND game artist and I know you're full of shit. This is evident by every single cross platform game that targets consoles getting an absolutely crap PC port, straight with dumbed down console limits.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44460129)

Not a dev here.

By making the next gen console closer to the lower middle end PC, they are raising the lowest common denominator for those crappy ports. The next gen now have decent amount of RAM for your code and textures and not have to worry about when and where they are coming from (DMA from storage or swapped out etc)

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457011)

I don't think you know how the game industry works. A common arch will not make it easier for developers to make better games. It will only make it easier to port more of the same lame franchise product to all the consoles.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (3, Interesting)

spire3661 (1038968) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457665)

Umm bullshit. One of the reasons I bought a PS3 is to run Linux on the exotic hardware.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44455815)

I've been using my Xbox 360 controller on my PC a lot lately, especially with Steam games.
The difference to the console experience is minimal.

I hope the Xbox One controller will be as supported by PC developers as much as the Xbox 360 one is now.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44455865)

It's essentially been like this ever since the original x-box. The distinction is meaningful because the games are still designed with interface control schemes that target one category or the other. Until consoles are shipped with a mouse/keyboard (never), it will remain as a meaningful distinction.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (2)

Verunks (1000826) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457565)

It's essentially been like this ever since the original x-box.

not really, the xbox 1 is x86 but the 360, ps3 and wii are ppc based, and the cell in the ps3 is also quite different because of the SPUs

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (2)

evilRhino (638506) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455875)

Yes, it means that the lazy software developers will for many years hence tailor their PC releases (actually console ports) to whatever outdated hardware is set for these next-gen consoles.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44455967)

Yup, the lazy software developers that get 0 extra time from their manager to work on the PC port because "consoles makes money, so do not spend time on the PC port".

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

pr0fessor (1940368) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456123)

more directly they will use something like the unity or unreal engines so it can be one and done {not really but a heck of a lot easier than not}

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456809)

There are no lazy software developers in gaming. Whatever point you were going for here, you have merely shown your ignorance.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456023)

That's going to make writing emulators much easier. Might even be able to do it using hardware-aided virtualisation, nice and fast, and half the code you'd need is already open-source for PC virtualisation.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

Narishma (822073) | 1 year,29 days | (#44458301)

You'd think so, but, as the original Xbox has shown [ngemu.com] , that's not really the case.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

vux984 (928602) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459563)

But emulating the instruction set shouldn't even be necessary at all. Xbox 'emulation' should really be 'virtualization'. The article you link talks about 20 different variations on the MOV instruction... which is entirely unimportant.

That leaves the audio/video and operating system stuff, which admittedly is still potentially a lot of work but the CPU itself doesn't need to be emulated at all, which saves them a ton of work relative to say what we're going to be looking at for a PS3 emulator or the N64 one.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

swan5566 (1771176) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456065)

One difference still is the price point. Even though the major vendors continue to flirt with "oh, they'll still buy it at this price" type of thinking (and suffer the consequences), they are still a ways off from what a solid PC gaming system costs.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457749)

A solid gaming PC costs only marginally more than either next gen console. A really good gaming PC that will blow away both consoles can be had for about $1000 and can be used for much more than gaming.

Call me when... (2)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456087)

Call me when consoles can do:

          * At least 60 FPS on 4k TVs.
          * Allow upgrading of the graphics, and storage.
          * Allow modding of the games.
          * And most of all, allow keyboard and mouse.

PCs can.

The price, however high, is totally dependent on the buyer.
But the point is that 'the buyer' has choices and features on the PC.

Consoles == No choice (locked in).

Re:Call me when... (1)

Mike Mentalist (544984) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456113)

Many people don't need choices and features like those things.

Re:Call me when... (2)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456179)

Allow upgrading of the graphics, and storage.

If they allowed that, consoles would end up a fractured mess just like PC's. It would be giving up one of the biggest strengths the consoles have (their consistency). One of the best things I love about my consoles is never having to check the "system requirements" section to see if my system can handle the game (and how well), or having to adjust sliders to try and get decent fps, or having to figure out where my current graphics card falls on the "minimum requirement vs. optimal requirement" scale, or having to upgrade yet again.

There is something to be said for just seeing "Xbox 360" or "PS4" on the box and knowing with absolute certainty that I can buy it, go home, pop it in the console, and get the exact same experience as everyone else without any worries or upgrades.

Re:Call me when... (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457741)

There is something to be said for just hopping in my Corolla and knowing its going to start every day for the next 10 years. That doesnt mean its fun or exciting, only consistent. The plain fact is, the PC is a premium experience, but you give up convenience for outright performance and extensibility.

Re:Call me when... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457955)

I see consoles as no different for having to check specs. You still have to make sure you get games that will work with your console and not just with a previous model or a different company's consoles. I don't see how that's any different than looking at the requirements for a PC game.

Re:Call me when... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44458325)

I see consoles as no different for having to check specs. You still have to make sure you get games that will work with your console and not just with a previous model or a different company's consoles. I don't see how that's any different than looking at the requirements for a PC game.

LOL. Then you are a total moron if you can't see a difference. I can tell you in a fraction of a second, while standing 10 feet away, whether a game runs on the 360, PS3, Wii U, or whatever other console. Can you do the same with a PC game and know whether it runs with your nvidia card model A, on CPU model B with clock speed C, and D GB of memory? My grandma could pick out a game for my console. Doubt she could do that for your PC.

Saying you don't see any difference between the two is sort of like telling your girlfriend (yeah, I know...wrong audience for this analogy) that you don't see a difference between seeing a naked chick on TV and banging a naked chick in her bed while she's at work.

Re:Call me when... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456325)

Err, get a PC.

Console manufacturers have zero interest in "calling" *you*.

Re:Call me when... (1)

dnaumov (453672) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456485)

Call me when consoles can do:

          * At least 60 FPS on 4k TVs.

PCs can.

Actually, they can't. With a monster like GTX Titan you would only get maybe 30-40fps maximum when gaming at 4K resolution.

Re:Call me when... (1)

vux984 (928602) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459591)

You could turn off FSAA16 on a 4K screen. :)

Re:Call me when... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44459763)

Try 15 to 20 fps. Titan isn't quite the monster that some people think. You'd need 4 to hold 60 fps. Exceptions exist for light-weight games, of course.

You'd be better off with a bunch of 7970s, if you wanted to have that many graphics cards. Half the price, and nearly the same performance - the Kepler architecture kind of falls on its face at high resolutions compared to the GCN architecture.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

HaZardman27 (1521119) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456271)

Aside from the control scheme and openess of software installation, there really isn't much difference.

Some of the biggest games on PC (Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DotA 2, League of Legends) are derivatives of games which started as mods for PC games. Games like Skyrim and Torchlight II have been greatly expanded by the modding communities. Most of the value of games like the new Shadowrun Returns will be provided by modders. Until consoles support modding communities, there will always be a significant difference between PC and consoles.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

organgtool (966989) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456429)

I thought the same thing when the first generation XBox came out. What I failed to realize was:

- It is a hell of a lot easier to manage updates to the OS, firmware, drivers, and games on a console hooked up to a large-screen tv with a proper 10-foot interface than a PC
- There is a convenience to having a separate box that's DRM'ed instead of having games trying to own my PC
- That DRM allows for the purchase and sale of used games that isn't available on the PC, not to mention borrowing games without having DRM to circumvent
- The console provides a unified interface for social gaming. I can see what games other friends are playing and join in their session or send them a message to try to convince them to play a different game
- I can be sure that games on a console perform reasonably well without having to upgrade any hardware

I'm not trying to say that there aren't advantages to playing games on the PC. I'm just providing counter-arguments to the growing belief that a significant number of console gamers are going to switch to the PC for next-gen games.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

filthpickle (1199927) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459179)

- It is a hell of a lot easier to manage updates to the OS, firmware, drivers, and games on a console hooked up to a large-screen tv with a proper 10-foot interface than a PC

I don't think it is really that much easier. It is somewhat easier, yes. It is bolded hell easier? Not IMO.

The console provides a unified interface for social gaming. I can see what games other friends are playing and join in their session or send them a message to try to convince them to play a different game

You can do this (with any game, steam or not) in steam

I can be sure that games on a console perform reasonably well without having to upgrade any hardware.

PC gamers are also sure. One of the unexpected side effects of consoles taking over. I built my gaming rig in 2009. I upgraded the video card about 6 months ago because I got a 2560x1440 monitor and wanted to run everything in that res. I did not need to upgrade the video card otherwise. I buy any game I like and do not need to even consider whether it will run, it will. If you build a decent machine you do not need to worry about this anymore. Maybe, and I mean maybe, you would run into trouble when the next gen consoles come out and the performance bar gets bumped up a notch...but how often does that happen?

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

rolfwind (528248) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456821)

There is little difference between the two because the Xbox has effectively killed PC gaming as a seperate category for the publisher's intents and purposes. This leads to a more console oriented market whereas before it was a dual console and PC market, both being pretty different and thus allowing different games to thrive within each.

PC are more powerful though but that difference doesn't really matter anymore because the increase visually it buys isn't all that grand for anything under a $1200 machine.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (2)

tlhIngan (30335) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457917)

There is little difference between the two because the Xbox has effectively killed PC gaming as a seperate category for the publisher's intents and purposes. This leads to a more console oriented market whereas before it was a dual console and PC market, both being pretty different and thus allowing different games to thrive within each.

PC are more powerful though but that difference doesn't really matter anymore because the increase visually it buys isn't all that grand for anything under a $1200 machine.

I think the 90% piracy rate on PCs had something to do with it (piracy on Xbox360 was around 10% for comparison). Then publishers put on DRM and you had the whole SecuROM fiasco that burned out optical drives.

All the Xbox did was show that between the Xbox and PS2, consoles were getting "good enough". The PS3 and Xbox360 basically said that things were pretty much there and consoles were no longer the huge compromises they once were when compared to PCs.

Publishers switched over because you could develop for PCs and load it up with DRM crap, or develop for consoles (which were "good enough") suffer less piracy and get more people paying for it. And people were buying consoles as well because it was more "social" and fun to play on the big screen TV than the little monitor.

What's happened since then is the universal DRM for PC now - Steam. And the proliferation of Intel graphics cards (around the time of the Xbox, people still used external video chips) which basically meant 90% of PCs sold were doing fairly poorly in the graphics department (and NVidia and AMD/ATi saw their marketshare dwindle as people rushed for cheaper Intel graphics).

But, the PC adapted - no longer were AAA titles going to PCs, which meant indie games rose in prominence - a good indie game (most are crap, still) now has a huge hungry base to which people would buy them and play with. And since these were low-budget productions, DRM wasn't really an issue, since piracy tended to help. And these games worked even on piss-poor Intel graphics, which meant huge market. Plus the rise of mobile gaming helped.

Consoles this round took notice and if you're paying attention, you'll see both Sony and Microsoft are trying hard to attract indies to their consoles.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456995)

I don't understand why people think this is the problem. The problem when porting isn't the architecture (I mean sure, memory constraints etc come into it), it's the APIs being used. Porting between Windows and Xbox will be trivial, sure. But porting to PS4 or mac will still be pretty much as hard as it ever has been.

Closed everything (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457761)

It's not the hardware that keeps me off consoles.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

Narishma (822073) | 1 year,29 days | (#44458189)

The biggest difference between PC and consoles has always been that consoles have a fixed hardware configuration. That's still the case regardless of what CPU architecture they use.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

TheSkepticalOptimist (898384) | 1 year,29 days | (#44458931)

The difference is value. PC's still cost a lot more (when you get comparatively the same specs) then a game console. I'd rather a $500 investment every 5 - 8 years then $2000 every couple of years to play the current games.

Also, PC's have always suffered from configuritis. When you make a PC game, you have to make the code work on a broad spectrum of hardware configurations, including the shitty budget PC's you get at Best Buy. Even if you just port a PC game to a console, you benefit from being able to streamline the code specifically for a set of hardware that will not change.

Finally, PC's are just not cool anymore. I don't want to have a large empty shoebox connected to my TV, fans whirring away. I also don't want to hermit myself away in a room with a monitor on a desktop sitting in an uncomfortable chair with shitty stereo speakers. I spent' $10k on my home theater system for a reason, not to spend my day in front of a desk looking at 24" TV and think I am cooler than all those people on a console.

Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (1)

khellendros1984 (792761) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459547)

Because keeping around a decent performing PC precludes using it with your overpriced speaker system, and $2000 every 2 years is "required" to keep up with console stats. Right.

You can build a decent PC for under $1000. You can keep it butter-smooth on new games for $300 every couple years for a GPU upgrade, and an additional amount every 5 years or so for a CPU/mobo upgrade.

On a separate note, I still can't get over your quote on your TV setup, though. I couldn't imagine $10k being remotely worth it, to me. Then again, I'm happy with my $800 TV and $200 speakers. To each their own.

Only a console fanboy would state this (1)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459141)

Because to a PC gamer something is VERY obviously different. The specs all the console fanboys are drooling over is for hardware YET to be released. Right now, gaming PC's already surpass those specs. PC specs will continue to evolve, the console specs will be fixed for another half a decade at least if not longer.

Remember, during the hype up of EVERY console launch, people have drooled at trailers and demo's (running often on PC's) and then the games finally launch and it turns out that when you are powering a real game, you can't dedicate all your resources to rendering an amazing demo scene.

I am reminded of commentary by the FEAR developers about how they had to choose for each room how many lights vs AI they wanted. They couldn't have a large number of both. If they wanted to create a big fight in a room with dynamic lights, they couldn't. On a PC, modders often add this, countless projects make games like Fallout and Skyrim harder and more fun by upping the number of enemies (rather then just adding hit points) figuring that gamers who want this have PC's that handle it. On a console you won't see it.

About the only upgrade you can do on a console is to replace the slow as hell HD with an SSD. But PC gamers are already on raid setups. I am only reminded things like loading screens exist when I turn on a console.

My current PC outpaces consoles not yet released. Over the coming years it will rapidly leave console hardware behind until a cheapass dell can run rings out the consoles of this generation.

About the only upside I can see is that now that consoles FINALLY get at least some decent memory (my PC hard 32gb simply because it doesn't cost anything anymore) developers will FINALLY be shifting to 64 bit code and you no longer need to patch PC games to be large address aware.

This generation MIGHT however be rather short IF 4K tv takes off. No way the current hardware can handle that at acceptable frame raters/detail levels. Since 4k tv's are going to launch for less then 1000 before the next generation consoles, it might be intresting to see what is going to happen.

Meanwhile, the modding scene will continue to exclusively cater for the PC crowd and turn average games into brilliant ones for free. And games like "The Last of Us" will sell purely on story because as a shooter it sucks DONKEY BALLS. Do you know what will TRULY revolutionize gaming and making porting trivial?

Allow keyboard/mouse as a standard option on console games. Mind you, Naughty Dog might actually have to create an AI (wait in the first outdoor area with the patrolling soldiers and they will all stop with their back to you, and not respond while you kill them a few meters from each other. But hey, console gamers probably find that a challenge.

So... (2, Insightful)

Type44Q (1233630) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455731)

Well, I RTFA. So both consoles are virtually the same and Kinect kinda sucks.

Somehow I was hoping for a bit more...

Re:So... (2)

Jeff Flanagan (2981883) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456387)

Kinect should be very good on the new console. It's pretty good on the 360, allowing games that make you more fit rather than sitting on the couch, but currently has a slight delay in recognition. This is supposed to be significantly reduced in the new console. Obviously it's not a good fit for many games, but for fitness, one-on-one sports, and dance games it's great.

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456511)

The only way kinect/wii games are making you fitter is if you barely do any exercise as it is.

If you even walk 20 or 30 minutes a day that kind of light aerobics isn't doing anything for your "fitness".

Re:So... (1)

Jeff Flanagan (2981883) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456585)

Why walk for 20-30 minutes when you can be moving much more than walking involves, and not get bored for hours while playing a game?

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456651)

Why walk for 20-30 minutes when you can be moving much more than walking involves, and not get bored for hours while playing a game?

Your crippling addiction to video games, to the point of being bored by absolutely any sort of physical activity, is not our problem.

Re:So... (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44458365)

Why walk for 20-30 minutes when you can be moving much more than walking involves, and not get bored for hours while playing a game?

Your crippling addiction to video games, to the point of being bored by absolutely any sort of physical activity, is not our problem.

It is your problem when his health care expenditures are factored into your health insurance premiums. Is it a bit sad? Sure. But if it improves his exercise habits at all, then good for him.

Re:So... (1)

Narishma (822073) | 1 year,29 days | (#44458417)

If you want more you should watch the video.

Re:So... (1)

Type44Q (1233630) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459815)

Video, what video? (That damned NoScript...) :p

Comments on the poll (3, Informative)

methano (519830) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455901)

So we don't do comments on the poll anymore? Is this where I have to come to comment on the poll? What's going on? Maybe I don't think there are enough options. Maybe I have some random Commander Taco comment. What do I do now?

Re:Comments on the poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44455993)

Especially after 9% of voters (yeah, I know, don't take the polls seriously...) said they come primarily for the polls: http://slashdot.org/poll/2611/when-it-comes-to-slashdot-i-normally

This is the second poll that was immediately archived, too.

Re:Comments on the poll (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44458603)

Yeah, where am I supposed to point out that using a hidden SSID is dumb because it's the wireless equivalent of putting duct tape over a keyhole so no one will find it?

Polls (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44455903)

Why the hell are all the polls being archived as soon as they're created now?

Re:Polls (1)

antdude (79039) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456263)

Ditto. :( /. sucks! :(

well then (0, Troll)

slashmydots (2189826) | 1 year,29 days | (#44455931)

"He's optimistic about the coming console cycle, commenting that it's 'obviously going to be a good thing for gamers, developers, and an excellent thing for AMD"
Well then he's an idiot who lives in his own little fake reality because that sure as hell isn't what's happening.

Re:well then (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456033)

Yeah! What the fuck does John Carmack know about developing videogames anyway??

Re:well then (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457795)

RAGE speaks volumes on Carmack's ability to make games in the 21st century

Re:well then (1)

theArtificial (613980) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459097)

You mean the title that won a number of awards [wikipedia.org] ? Also, I hope you're not referring to the driver issue which was ATI and their glorious OpenGL implementation. Launch day driver issues are a reoccurring theme for ATI [slashdot.org] . Carmack makes engines, not games. You're also conveniently ignoring Doom3 and Quake Wars (mega texture tech was used in this, too). While I don't think megatexture was the best choice simply for accessibility, but it's an interesting concept. You may or may not be aware that the delay for RAGE was mainly due to the art teams, most of the engine heavy lifting was completed years prior [shacknews.com] .

Re:well then (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459303)

Metacritic user score: 4.8

Industry awards mean fuck all when the USERS hate your game.

Re:well then (2)

theArtificial (613980) | 1 year,29 days | (#44459489)

If you read some of those negative comments, you'll see the majority are about graphical issues. Many of these "reviews" are about as insightful as app store comments saying the app sucks because it doesn't run on their device. How is that objective? "Hey, I stubbed my toe, this stairway sucks. Would not walk again 0/10"

Re:well then (2)

Xest (935314) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456091)

I'm not sure, Sony is being more open than ever, a complete u-turn from it's past where it's actually banning online passes and such DRM from it's system and forcing Microsoft to follow suit.

We'll see greater plurality of platforms but increased compatibility with the new console hardware being largely compatible with PC hardware which means we should see far less of the low quality ports of the last generation - porting between the XBox One, PS4, Wii U, and PC will be way easier than between the 360, PS3, Wii, and PC due to the plague of fundamental architecture differences with the existing generation.

Sony realised their biggest fuckup last generation initially was abysmal developer tools and they're working on that.

So yes I think he's spot on, for gamers things are better - less DRM, more platform choices, better quality cross platform titles, easier publishing for indie developers across all platforms now announced. For developers they have better tools, far fewer and much simpler differences between platforms making porting a breeze in comparison and again easier publishing for indie devs.

I'll probably end up buying every platform this generation again (well, I only have the XBox One and PS4 to go anyway) and I'm frankly looking forward to all of them. The XBox One was my only concern but since the DRM u-turn and the announcement of indie publishing and development on consumer consoles, coupled with removal of chief idiot Don Mattrick my concerns have been removed. I was never one for the Kinect/NSA conspiracy theory, really, the NSA isn't going to be able to sneak a live stream of video over my networking hardware without me spotting it and even if they wanted to they could do the same with my webcam or my phone or tablet or plethora of other camera integrated devices that exist nowadays anyway.

It wasn't looking that great a round at first with Microsoft's braindead initial announcement, and the Wii U looking a little pointless but now I have a Wii U and played through Lego City Undercover and Pikmin 3 coupled with the above mentioned policy changes by Microsoft, as well as some decent PC releases at last this last year or so (Diablo 3, Starcraft, Wargame: Airland Battle to name a few) I'm content right now providing nothing stupid happens in the meantime to change that.

What exactly do you think is happening that we should all be concerned about? I still have concerns, I still want way less DRM on PC and yes that includes Valve but things right now are looking better than they were previous gen - the Wii U looks set to have less titles but more quality titles unlike the Wii which was a software crap fest, the PS4 will hopefully be more consumer friendly and is hopefully more polished than the anti-consumer patch-fest that was the PS3, the XBox One is due to run quiet and cooler than the aeroplane sounding radiator that was the 360 and has had to follow Sony's lead in DRM removal and the PC is becoming more competitive in terms of games on offer. I know the fanboys will bitch and moan about opposing systems but if a system has something I like I don't intend to artificially limit myself from not being able to enjoy it based on something as petty as that.

Re:well then (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456849)

Are you serious about Sony? Banning Online Passes... don't fall for their PR. They just included an Online pass with Last of Us... that just came out during E3.

Re:well then (1)

Xest (935314) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456889)

Well you may be right, I don't intend to purchase either right at release so hopefully I'll have time to find out how honest they are before I do decide to make my purchase.

In fact, it sounds like here in the UK we're getting both consoles later than people in North America anyway so even if I was going to purchase at UK release that'd give at least a few weeks to see if there's any suggestion of backtracking.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now, Sony haven't done much to earn people's trust but I do think there are a few signs suggesting they're turning things around a little and learning from their mistakes not just in terms of their console but in their smartphones, cameras, and other products too to be fair.

Re:well then (2)

spire3661 (1038968) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457819)

THe reason i wont buy an Xbox one is that Im tired of Microsoft trying to wring a penny out of EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the console. That and forcing a camera in my living room aint happening.

Re:well then (1)

Jeff Flanagan (2981883) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456415)

Does it occur to you that you probably live in an angry little fake reality, and lash out at more knowledgable people?

Microsoft did not reverse their DRM decision. (0)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456045)

They just directed the decision back to the publishers - it's up to them now if they will require games use an always-on connection, or lock each purchase to a specific console or steam account to prevent resale. Microsoft provides support for such restrictions, but doesn't require they be used.

Re:Microsoft did not reverse their DRM decision. (1)

TWiTfan (2887093) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456097)

That's the exact same position as Sony. Yet another thing both consoles share in common, I suppose.

Would have been nice for at least one of them to take a stand and say "No, we're not allowing publishers to put always-on requirements on any single-player game on our console, PERIOD." But neither wants to risk pissing off the developers.

Re:Microsoft did not reverse their DRM decision. (1)

Pinky's Brain (1158667) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456407)

When a market provides options then those options will be used for competitive advantage ... always online is a competitive disadvantage, prepare to see it not be a problem. Ubisoft recanted on the PC for good reason ...

Only Blizzard is the exception to prove the rule, they have the Apple like halo power to convince the sheep to ignore the cattleprods ... but they saved me from making a mistake and buying Diablo 3, so all's well that ends well.

Re:Microsoft did not reverse their DRM decision. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456833)

Consider Sony's most recent first part published game -- Last of Us included an Online Pass (basically DRM for physical media) -- I don't look for Sony to out right ban DRM. I don't look for MSFT to ban it either.

The problem is.. (1)

AdmV0rl0n (98366) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456301)

That its nice to see this. But Carmack isn't what he was. Nor is quakecon really. Recent ID stuff has'nt shone and the input isn't as valuable as it once was. I kinda have the feeling that ID and Carmack have settled. New upstarts don't have that hunger sated and this is the issue really I have with Carmack - nice guy that he is..

Re:The problem is.. (1)

iMadeGhostzilla (1851560) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457469)

I disagree they have settled. Rage may not have been that well received, but ID have an expertise and interest in certain aspects of gameplay and they are pushing it with their new work. IMO anyone working to go deeper in the area they are best at isn't settling.

Re:The problem is.. (1)

0ld_d0g (923931) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457579)

id Games are not designed by john carmack. The success of modern games is determined by a combination of visual/audio art, game design, and rendering/physics/AI tech. Carmack works on behind the scenes tech stuff (hes not even an expert on AI or physics) that people don't "see" when they play games. Carmack is a technical person giving an informed technical opinion on technical things. The fact that you don't like id games is irrelevant to what he has to say.

Tong (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456315)

Can I plug in a keyboard and a mouse?

Playing these kinds of games with a console controller is like assembling a ship in a bottle with long, clumsy tongs. Without the feeling of pride, just irritation.

Re:Tong (1)

Jeff Flanagan (2981883) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456443)

>Playing these kinds of games with a console controller is like assembling a ship in a bottle with long, clumsy tongs. Without the feeling of pride, just irritation. Not really. The playstyle is just different, and some people have trouble adapting. Keyboard and mouse sucks from the couch, and less and less people game at a computer desk. I'll take a 360 controller with the dual analog sticks over a keyboard and mouse for PC gaming in my home theater.

Re:Tong (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44458795)

Never played counter strike right? I like killing hordes of aliens with a happy trigger while laying on a couch covered with potato chips crumbles as much as any guy, but certain shooters require dexterity that is just not possible to develop with just your thumb as opposed to your wrist, fingers and arm. Is not about adaptability is about not having enough joints and thus not the same degree of motor skill. Most good PC players are also good console shooting players but is not as fun or challenging.

Re:Tong (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456559)

The system you're looking for is called a "PC," and you know it. In fact, just the fact that you've made the "Can I plug in a keyboard and a mouse?" remark indicates that it's 99% likely that you are already a "fucking PC snob prick of a human being." This chance increases to 99.99% if you have ever found yourself lamenting to an uninterested friend at a party about how "Consoles have dumbed down PC games, man!" and to 100% if you have no friends to lament to.

Re:Tong (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457231)

Can I plug in a keyboard and a mouse?

Playing these kinds of games with a console controller is like assembling a ship in a bottle with long, clumsy tongs. Without the feeling of pride, just irritation.

Or like masturbating with a cheese grater: slightly amusing, but mostly painful.

Handheld Gaming Market (1)

zifn4b (1040588) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456739)

I disagree with Carmack's assessment that the handheld gaming market is being consumed by mobile devices. The games available for tablets and phones are VERY inferior compared to handheld gaming devices. There have only been a few worthwhile games for the iPad that I've found such as Tales from Monkey Island, Kingdom Rush and Machinarium are all great games but there are so few good titles to choose from. There are tons of great titles to choose from on 3DS and PS Vita though.

The mobile market is still primarily about casual games like Words with Friends. For games with more depth, you'll be hard-pressed to find that with the exception of a few gems like the ones I mentioned above.

Re:Handheld Gaming Market (1)

UnknowingFool (672806) | 1 year,29 days | (#44458581)

Carmack wasn't commenting about what he wants or whether it is a good thing. The fact of the matter is that fewer people seem to be carrying a game console and a smart phone. At the same time, consumers are buying more games. The quality and type of games for touch phones are different than for a game console. There are not the games you want to play but for most consumers they are.

Re:Handheld Gaming Market (1)

AvitarX (172628) | 1 year,29 days | (#44458661)

Baldur's Gate, Xcom, this is the direction things are moving.

Rage was a horrible game (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456771)

Carmack is a has-been at this point.

Re:Rage was a horrible game (1)

0ld_d0g (923931) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457623)

Carmack did not design it. He did not create art for it. He did not design the gameplay. He wrote the tech-scaffolding that the others in the company created the game around. Atleast try to know something before you go around spewing random comments.

I find it telling that johnc... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44456897)

...doesn't post on Slashdot anymore. Site's dead.

Two consoles? (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | 1 year,29 days | (#44456949)

John said he hasn't run quite enough tests on the hardware for the two consoles

So what, the Wii U doesn't exists?

Re:Two consoles? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457401)

The implication is "Next Gen" consolose, not kiddie devices.

Re:Two consoles? (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457847)

IN the context of 'next-gen' no Wii U does not exist.

relevant? (1, Insightful)

argStyopa (232550) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457273)

John Carmack was a brilliant hardware/software dude in the 1990s and 2000s.
I'm having trouble being certain of his relevance today.

His company produced one of the greatest, genre-introducing games ever ...but what has he done lately?

Cdr Keen - absolutely brilliant
Wolfenstein 3d - 1992 - breakthrough game
Doom 1993? - novel, a big evolutionary step forward.
Quake 1996 - another huge advance in rendering, net coding
Doom 2/Quake 2 were not substantial steps forward. D2 was meh; Q2 I believe did have a rather revolutionarily-open design welcoming modding.
Doom3 - essentially D(1), but on 10 year newer hardware. Gameplay was indistinquishable from D1.
Rage - a flop, from the use of gigantic outdoor textures (whose render-farm requirements pretty much excluded their massive modding fanbase) to a console-focused development, and gameplay that was utterly a repeat of previous iD titles (and other games in the market like Fallout, etc)

More triangles in the scene (and curves, and textures, and lens flare, and 15 different flavors of "pitch black") is more a direct credit to Nvidia/AMD than to Mr Carmack, and I don't see that anything since Quake 2 (arguably, Quake 1) is really a monumental advance forward.

1996-2013...17 years is a helluva dry spell, and the fact he still gets attention speaks more to the reverence the community STILL holds for what he created than anything he seems to be creating.

Don't get me wrong, I still respect the guy, who doesn't? But he's massively rich and doesn't seem to be hungry anymore. He seemed to go off down a "handheld gaming" gopher-hole for a number of years...I guess I just wish he could pull another rabbit out of the hat and make me give a shit about an iD product again.

Re:relevant? (1)

0ld_d0g (923931) | 1 year,29 days | (#44457657)

I'm having trouble being certain of his relevance today.

I'm having trouble seeing the relevance of your criticism since it has *nothing* at all to do with Carmack.

Re:relevant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44459133)

Then you aren't paying any attention. I suggest some basic reading comprehension lessons.

Re:relevant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457747)

his VR / 3D headset? Building rockets?

Re:relevant? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44458297)

"Doom3 - essentially D(1), but on 10 year newer hardware. Gameplay was indistinquishable from D1."

I don't know what game you played but it was nothing like D1. Go back to playing your Halo.

Re:relevant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44460083)

Exactly... Darkness was an occasional surprise in D1, not a gimmick around which the whole game was designed like D3.

Re:relevant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44459157)

You do know Carmack influenced nvidia and amd so that we have the current types of video cards now that are capable of all this cool stuff right?

Re:relevant? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44459593)

Did you play the games you are commenting on, at the time when they were released and had the maximum impact?

Some criticism of your criticism:
Doom2 - Meh? It was a much enjoyable experience than Doom 1. Larger environments, better music, scary as hell and hit closer to home for its premises as "Hell on Earth"
Doom3 - Gameplay indistinguishable from Doom1 - You got to be joking on this one, as the main criticism of this game was that it was nothing like the previous doom games. While previous games had dozens of monsters coming at you, due to graphical or other issues, D3 tried to have some cheap scares and only a few monsters at max at any time.

Carmack is revered for creating an industry. He freely shared each and every of his innovations / discoveries allowing others to build on top of that. He pretty much wrote the book on 3d gaming.

Wright brothers are remembered for their first flight, not on the incremental improvements they made.

Re:relevant? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44459643)

Carmack has always been the engine guy, not the game designer. Engine stuff in Doom3, Rage is still very, very great. I doubt Id Tech 5/6 will let us down either.

Links to Actual Videos (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,29 days | (#44457709)

Gamedev.Com posted a playlist of all the videos on its youtube account here: https://www.youtube.com/user/gamedevofficial

 

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