Ask Slashdot: When Is It OK To Not Give Notice? 892
An anonymous reader writes "Here in the U.S., 'being professional' means giving at least two week's notice when leaving a job. Is this an outmoded notion? We've all heard stories about (or perhaps experienced) a quick escort to the parking lot upon giving the normal notice, and I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired. A generation ago, providing a lengthy notice was required to get a glowing reference, but these days does a reference hold water any more? Once you're reached the point where you know it's time to leave, under what circumstances would you just up and walk out or give only a short notice?"
When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
No notice is probably the biggest middle finger you can give a company and still remain within the bounds of the law.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
Burning bridges (Score:5, Insightful)
I think if you don't give notice then it raises red flags for your new employer.
If you already have a new employer then why would it raise flags? They've already hired you and (probably) have no idea what sort of circumstances you plan to leave your old employer under unless you have informed them and that would be pretty dumb to do.
But industries are so small that why would you want to burn bridges?
Sometimes bridges are worth burning. Not a good idea as a general practice I'll concur but if someone came to me and said I'll triple your salary, you'll work with nice people and you get to work 20 hours a week I'd consider burning a few bridges for that. I've also had the "pleasure" of working for a few real douchebags and those are bridges I wouldn't mind burning either.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:5, Interesting)
If you already have a new employer then why would it raise flags? They've already hired you and (probably) have no idea what sort of circumstances you plan to leave your old employer under unless you have informed them and that would be pretty dumb to do.
Sometimes bridges are worth burning. Not a good idea as a general practice I'll concur but if someone came to me and said I'll triple your salary, you'll work with nice people and you get to work 20 hours a week I'd consider burning a few bridges for that. I've also had the "pleasure" of working for a few real douchebags and those are bridges I wouldn't mind burning either.
1 If I'm the hiring person and you don't give your current employer notice then I'll assume that you are a snake and will do the same to me later, regardless of whether I would need knowledge transition at that point. You're talking a professional (knowledge) position here, right? 2 How sure are you that you won't ever want the old job as a reference? I've been surprised at how well some older references have worked for me.
Presume no notice will be given (Score:5, Insightful)
If I'm the hiring person and you don't give your current employer notice then I'll assume that you are a snake and will do the same to me later, regardless of whether I would need knowledge transition at that point.
You SHOULD assume that any employee might not give you notice. Sometimes employees aren't able to give you notice because they fall ill. Sometimes they get an opportunity and have to act on it immediately. Sometimes things just don't work out between the company and the employee. Plan accordingly. I run a small manufacturing company and I assure you that two weeks notice makes little practical difference. It's certainly not enough to find and train an adequate replacement and if you cannot gracefully transition that person's work then management screwed up bad. In my case that means *I* screwed up since I'm the boss.
The two weeks notice thing is nice and courteous but if someone is leaving without prior notice the first place you should look if you want to know why is in the mirror. I've walked out of jobs without any notice and I assure you that it was because of the unprofessional behavior of those I worked for. It doesn't necessarily mean they are a "snake" but what it does mean is that you have a poor understanding of what at-will employment really means.
How sure are you that you won't ever want the old job as a reference? I've been surprised at how well some older references have worked for me.
I've been in the workforce for about 25 years now. A good reference is NEVER a company. It is a person you know. It is impossible for a company to have a personal relationship with you or to know you. It is always a close colleague or someone I had a good personal relationship with who provided the references. Whether I gave two weeks notice or not has never once been a factor.
Re:Presume no notice will be given (Score:5, Informative)
I've been in the workforce for about 25 years now. A good reference is NEVER a company. It is a person you know. It is impossible for a company to have a personal relationship with you or to know you. It is always a close colleague or someone I had a good personal relationship with who provided the references. Whether I gave two weeks notice or not has never once been a factor.
I've had this exact conversation with many people, and they don't seem to understand that when you put previous employers on a resume, the only information they are allowed to give anyone that calls about your employment with them are things that are a matter of public record: the dates of your employment, and possibly any criminal charges that may have been leveled against you by them, though that last one they may actually have to get from a background check. It's your personal references that they will call to ask more detailed questions about your work history with them.
Not providing notice is rude? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Insightful)
One job I left recently I walked out on. I wouldn't ask them for a reference. They were evil, which is why I walked out. I have references before and after that one, and nobody seemed to care. I only ask for references from people I trust to give a good one.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, I'm the same way: I walked out on a job a few years ago because the boss was giving me shit about coming in late, even though I always came in late, and always left late, and got more work done after 5 when everyone else left. There were a bunch of other factors about that job that I was already sick of (like the idiotic open-plan work environment), so my boss getting on me about being late (and then pulling me into a talk where he asked me why I was there; why else would I be there but for a paycheck?) was the last straw; I tossed a resignation letter at him and walked out.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Insightful)
the boss was giving me shit about coming in late, even though I always came in late
...
asked me why I was there; why else would I be there but for a paycheck?
...
I tossed a resignation letter at him and walked out.
Your former employer is undoubtedly very grateful you left on your own.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Insightful)
you have it all wrong.
we work for our income. PERIOD. if you think otherwise, you are young and, well, hopefully you'll learn what life is about.
hint: its not about work.
I love what I do, but I only do it for the paycheck. you are NOT 'the company' and the company is not you. unless you are the owner or an early founder, you and the company have a work relationship and that's all. if they try to convince you otherwise, they are feeding you bullshit. don't buy into this idea.
Bologne (Score:4, Insightful)
I left a job, where I sometimes arrived 5-10 minutes late. But many days could find myself stuck till late evening finishing up a rush order.
If you want employees to be perfectly timely at 9-5, then it should be reciprocated. 5pm you're on your own boss. If you want to invade that personal time, then you need to be understsanding if they're a few minutes late. (The exception is life critical jobs, nurses, etc. But for most of us, that's not the case.)
The truth is, because of economic recessions and big corporate lobbying, there is an economic environment which mostly favors the employers. The fact that you are in a more powerful position, doesn't make you right in your demands. It simply means you are a tyrant.
A moral employer would say, hey, I respect you. Either by saying I want you here 9-5, and you are not obligated to be here outside of those times. OR we understand life, and the world are crazy. We expect you to normally be in by 9am. Or at least within a few minutes. But we're flexible. Likewise, there will be days when we really need your help beyond 5pm.
And we can all be mutually respectful.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Informative)
"Since the service is so shitty, I'll be improving it by leaving, so have fun".
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Burning bridges (Score:5, Insightful)
Both employee and employer should always leave bridges intact. You never know what the future will be. I have re-hired several "boomerangs" that left, found out the grass wasn't greener over the fence, and asked to come back. Unlike other new hires, they require no training, and often return with a new attitude, and new perspectives. I have also had many good referrals from ex-employes. Every summer we even have an "alumni reunion BBQ" in a local park to keep the network alive. Employee turnover is a fact of life. Treating it as a betrayal is idiotic. Just accept it and make the most of it.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Interesting)
Agreed. My last (large) company's hiring class was over 50% rehires (a group of 100). Despite how small-minded one manager may be, Having such a big company black-mark me would have been dangerous to my future. That company could be the best option for me one day in the future.
Or look at it like a psych experiment: Life after a 2-week notice is fascinating. You can say no to just about anything. "Fire me" can be used freely as a response (and they wouldn't dare pay you severance).
Re:Burning bridges (Score:5, Insightful)
You know how singing one tree can burn down a whole forest?
Bridges connect to bridges, and if you light one on fire, another might catch too.
Bosses have a good chance of being friends or colleagues in the industry.
No, it's not fair.
Re: (Score:3)
Why would that require burning bridges though?
If someone has invested a lot in training you and you jump ship to go somewhere else that could result in some burned bridges. I've seen it happen more than a few times. I've seen sales people jump ship and take customers with them when they get a better deal. That rarely results in fond feelings.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If someone has invested a lot in training you and you jump ship to go somewhere else that could result in some burned bridges.
That depends on how soon after the training you jump ship. If you complete the training and immediately go elsewhere, yeah - they'll assume you were taking advantage of them. If you worked for a couple of years before jumping ship, that just means you felt underpaid or under-appreciated, or got offered a much better position elsewhere, which are the normal, more benign reasons for leaving.
I've seen sales people jump ship and take customers with them when they get a better deal. That rarely results in fond feelings.
That's because customers are a company asset, and quite often the most important one. Taking a company's customers with
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Insightful)
Except that no one invests in training any more; they only want to hire experienced people. As for salespeople taking customers, this is Slashdot, so the main industries being discussed here are IT and engineering (and most of that is probably software engineering). This isn't a forum for salespeople, marketers, etc.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Interesting)
And you will have employees refuse the training, the smart ones anyway. I refuse to allow my employer to put me in any sort of bondage. at-will employment means an employee can walk anytime they want, and the employer can toss them anytime they want. Attempts to put fetters on the employee for leaving is an attempt to circumvent the employee protections of at-will employment.
If I ever found myself working for a company that required me to stay because I received some training or suffer financial penalty, and then made that training mandatory to keep the job, I would resign on the spot.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:4, Interesting)
I hope your also teaching them _wrong_.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope your also teaching them _wrong_.
That's called "Doing the Needful"
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
Flawed issue framing (Score:3, Interesting)
Being a good person is something that will always be good for you.
Demonstrably not true. And giving two weeks notice or not giving two weeks notice does not determine whether you are a good person or not. There are circumstances where not giving any notice is perfectly appropriate and justified. The reverse is sometimes true as well. If someone is treating me badly then I am going to leave. It's MY life and I'm not going to waste it trying to martyr myself proving how much better I am than someone I don't respect.
Being an asshole because you can not see any immediate ramifications of your poor decision does not make it a good one.
Cute (though false) way to frame the issue but first y
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
I take it you haven't worked in IT long - Or have only worked for one, fairly stable company? Because you seriously ask what possible incentive exists in that situation???
Your current employer has outsourced their entire engineering staff to somewhere 10k miles away that speaks a different language and has an entirely different work culture. Put bluntly, can you say "ca-CHING" when the contracting hours start rolling in? Not a "maybe", they will realize they need some of you back on an all-but-permanent basis.
Believe me when I tell you this counts as quite possibly one of the greatest career-advancing opportunities you might have in your entire working life. Don't fuck it up because it feels good to tell your boss off.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
Not a "maybe", they will realize they need some of you back on an all-but-permanent basis.
They may realize it, but that doesn't mean they'll admit it, because that would mean admitting management was wrong, and one of the cardinal rules of management is that Management Is Never Wrong. Employees may be wrong, customers may be wrong, suppliers may be wrong, but Management Is Never Wrong. How could they be wrong? They've studied Management! They know how to Manage Things!
And they will hold to this even as the company collapses, because in the age of the golden parachute, there's no incentive to do otherwise. The company may go bankrupt, but you can be damn sure they'll loot every remaining penny from it before the end. And then go on to an equivalent position at another company where they can do the same thing, because the managerial class looks after its own.
Not that I've ever actually seen this happen, of course. The above is completely speculative. Yep.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
That's only in countries where employee protection is nil, usually because the employees are "too smart" to be in a union or lobby for other job protection legislation.
In most other countries, if you give notice, you are paid for the notice period even if the company decides to walk you out the same day. If they refuse to pay for your notice period, you can bring an unjustified dismissal lawsuit against them as you can treat that as being "fired without cause" and actually get more than what you would've gotten had they just paid you out. (Courts don't generally look fondly on dismissing people who give notice, and often such dismissal comes with severance pay).
Of course, the interesting thing I suppose is how people in the US routinely allow themselves to get screwed over - especially in the IT field. Think about it - in every other profession other than IT, there's typically on-call pay if you have to carry the pager, potential compensation for overtime (yes, even if you're salaried, a lot of places do compensate for overtime) and many other rights and compensation that IT seems to have given up. And we call ourselves "smart" workers. Hell, I'm sure some of the unionized employees at McDonalds get far more rights than we get, only because "we're too smart" and "unions are for idiots" and we let our own labor rights get eroded "because we're better".
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
Last Year I told my old company that I was leaving. I told the new company that I could start in three weeks(I figured two for notice and one to move).
Instead I was told wait in the conference for 2 hours for one of them to drive to the location(we were a satellite branch.) After signing a couple of documents they told me to leave and they would pay the next two weeks as the last of my vacation time.
Well I got three weeks of vacation(I played golf, had fun, partied a few times).
I think you should show your soon to be old employer respect and offer two weeks, just be aware you may not get it.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
You got fucked. They owed you the vacation time anyhow. Basically they told you GTF out and didn't pay you for your notice time.
Basically what you should expect.
You should give that employer a thumbs down if anybody you know ever considers working there. References do work both ways.
Re: (Score:3)
Especially if you work anywhere that has a NDA or any sort of security clearance.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:4, Informative)
That would suck.
In Australia I am required by law to give a notice period to my employer and my employer is required by law to pay me for my notice period. However if my employer wants to terminate my employment immediately, they are well within their rights to frog march me out of the building but they still have to pay me my notice period even though I didn't work it and then pay me my annual leave balance after that. So if I have a notice period of 2 weeks and 2 weeks leave, they have to pay me for 4 weeks.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:4, Insightful)
*must* respect?
you owe me a new keyboard, dude. I'm laughing too hard right now.
its not as simple as that. what's simple is that you are an HR shill or an idiot. or both.
you have as much power to leave on your terms as they have to fire you on their terms.
but keep thinking that they own your ass. yup, you're a good little slave, aren't you.
Sometimes people don't show. Plan for it. (Score:5, Insightful)
No notice is probably the biggest middle finger you can give a company and still remain within the bounds of the law.
I assure you it is not. There are much worse things you can do without breaking a single law. Doesn't make doing them a good idea but no notice is really barely better than 2 weeks notice. Businesses should assume people won't necessarily show up the next day because sometimes accidents happen. I've had employees suddenly get very ill and from the perspective of the operations of business that is really no different. If a company is really screwed by one person not showing up then management did a terrible job of organizing the workload and sharing important information and that is the fault of the company.
Re:Sometimes people don't show. Plan for it. (Score:4, Interesting)
There are much worse things you can do without breaking a single law.
Like scheduling surgery and a European vacation such that your unscheduled (from the company's point of view) paid medical leave and scheduled paid vacation butt up against one another so you miss six months of work? Bonus: get the wife pregnant three months before the surgery and take some paternity leave.
Re:Sometimes people don't show. Plan for it. (Score:4, Insightful)
No notice is probably the biggest middle finger you can give a company and still remain within the bounds of the law.
I assure you it is not. There are much worse things you can do without breaking a single law. Doesn't make doing them a good idea but no notice is really barely better than 2 weeks notice. Businesses should assume people won't necessarily show up the next day because sometimes accidents happen. I've had employees suddenly get very ill and from the perspective of the operations of business that is really no different. If a company is really screwed by one person not showing up then management did a terrible job of organizing the workload and sharing important information and that is the fault of the company.
You, and many others here, sound like you've never worked for a small business. I assure you that for small businesses having an employee quit is often a big difficulty. It often means that others have to step in and do the work of the person who quit until that person can be replaced and the replacement is trained. Small business isn't a football team with a backup quarterback waiting on the sidelines warmed up and ready to play. The margins are tight and there isn't money for extra employees. When someone gives 2 weeks that gives a tiny bit of breathing room for the employer to begin finding someone new, and is the minimum courtesy for a professional leaving a job. Quitting and walking out without notice is appalling rude. I can't blame people for leaving if they found something better, but the way they leave is often more revealing of character than anything else.
Luckily this is something that decent people just know, and just do. If you have to ask then I hope it is because you work for a terrible employer, if not, I hope you aren't applying for a job at my office.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
Respect: It goes both ways.
Considering most companies:
a) have "Human Resources" (as if people are some resource to be exploited) instead of "Human Assets" where employees are viewed as an _investment_,
b) can fire your ass at a moment's notice (i.e. At-Will-Employment)
c) yet still expect the "common courtesy" of two weeks
Maybe companies should get over themselves and learn to treat their employees with equal respect instead of treating them like slaves and be dicks about not giving a reference.
Re: (Score:3)
many employment contracts likely require minimum notice of termination as a condition which you must agree to
Meanwhile, there are some employers who have fired employees for giving notice and their act of disloyalty.
Really depends upon the employer, but trying to avoid burning bridges is generally considered good practice and a respectful thing to do.
The company who picked up my former co-workers forbade them to talk to me under threat of immediate termination - I never worked for them, I just decided not to sign on with an outsourcing company and left for greener pastures.
Probably best to keep track of how your e
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, there are some employers who have fired employees for giving notice and their act of disloyalty.
That's generally a bad idea. If an employer lets an employee quit, there's no loose ends. If they fire the employee who gave notice, that employee is probably eligible for unemployment benefits. The knee-jerk "you're fired" could turn into both an insurance claim and possibly the employee becoming eligible for other company-specific benefits like severance, job placement services, paid medical, etc.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:4, Interesting)
I worked for a small company, reported to the CEO. I gave my two-weeks notice (per written company guidelines), and the CEO terminated me on the spot (basically to save paying medical benefits, I guess). Before I walked out that afternoon, I emailed a carefully worded letter to the CEO and HR, something with all the "in good faith" and "per written company guidelines" legal mumbo jumbo. No threats, just "I await your response." It read like I'd consulted an attorney.
Later, the HR director told me that the letter I'd sent had the CEO asking the HR director, "What do we do now?" Her response, "We? *You* pay him!" Which the company did, and I got two weeks paid vacation. A little later the CEO got canned. Karma, gotta love it.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Informative)
many employment contracts likely require minimum notice of termination as a condition which you must agree to
And wiping your ass with those contracts is probably the most useful they will be.
Unless you want to collect on your unpaid benefit time. Some contracts will "require" two weeks notice, and will pay out any unpaid vacation (and maybe sick as well) if you provide said two weeks notice. They don't phrase it as a tit-for-tat, but that's really what it is in most states (at-will employment, where they can legally fire you without cause at any moment, and you can walk out without notice at any moment).
AFAIK, parent post is absolutely correct in the strict legal sense - you can just walk out, and they can just fire you. Contracts do not trump those laws.
Re: (Score:3)
AFAIK, parent post is absolutely correct in the strict legal sense - you can just walk out, and they can just fire you. Contracts do not trump those laws.
Most employment contracts are "at will", you can quit without cause AND you can be fired without cause. The issue with this surrounds unemployment benefits. Most employers won't fire you unless attendence policies are violated. They would rather work the shit out of you for the money you contracted for which is cheaper than hiring someone else. The next best option is to hire someone else. And they will. Loyalty dosen't exist like it did 30 years ago, although there are those special enclaves where loyalty
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:4, Insightful)
No notice, no reference (Score:5, Informative)
No reference, no big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
As an employer, we don't give references for people who don't give two weeks' notice.
Big deal. Most HR pros will advise you not to say anything more than confirming that the person did work there and for how long and possibly in what sort of general capacity they were employed. Giving a performance review is generally considered a bad idea as it provides no benefit to the former employer but can result in lawsuits if they say the wrong thing. You can of course make exceptions if you like but mostly by not giving references you are just being petty.
It's just common courtesy.
So do you give them two weeks notice when you terminate their employment? That would be quite courteous. Or does the courtesy only get extended if it favors you?
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Interesting)
When I call to get references for a potential employee, I either get "Bob is an ace. Absolute genius. We're gonna miss him totally!" or we get "Bob worked here between August 2010 and July 2013."
While the former may not be completely reliable as to how good Bob is, just getting the latter tends to raise questions.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:4, Informative)
Many companies won't give more information than this. I know Intel doesn't for legal reasons. That's why I list my employers, but my references are colleagues I've worked with.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Insightful)
...That's why I list my employers, but my references are colleagues I've worked with.
If I like the people I work with and want them to give me a good reference then I let them know what's happening before I go to amanagement. Usually it's your soon to be ex-cowrkers who will be the ones impacted by you leaving. Treat them with respect even if you don't respect the company. If management decides to walk you out the moment you give notice, there's nothing you can do about it but at least the people you worked with have had a chance to prepare for your departure.
Cheers,
Dave
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Informative)
Many companies (I would wager every one of the fortune 500 and probably any company larger than about 500 employees) have policies forbidding any information whether good or bad. Judging the employee by the minimal response is a mistake on your part.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:4, Insightful)
I had an employer who told me up front that if anyone called asking for a reference all they would do is say when I worked there, they would not give any information good or bad. Judging people on employers giving the second response is not fair.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, but when people are laid off, they might get walked out the door, but they are still paid the next two weeks wages. At least that is the case in Australia. Yeah, it's certainly not unheard of that folks walk into the office one morning and get told that they have been let go - but they are always paid their two weeks + entitlements that same morning.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Informative)
Laid off means immediate access to unemployment benefits, no questions asked.
Fired/Terminated means the employer must provide cause for doing so. The onus is on them. If they just fire you "for cause" without giving a reason, then protest your unemployment, you'll probably win.
Quitting means you must provide cause for doing so. The onus is upon you. There are legitimate reasons to quit, including following a spouse out of the area, for example. But if you "just quit" and the employer challenges, you'll probably lose.
Depending on the state, employers can be "dollar for dollar" reimbursable for unemployment, i.e.: They pay the full cost. or they can pay a tax as a percentage of wages, with an "experience rating" that raises the tax if they do a lot of layoffs.
If they are in the latter category and you quit or are fired, they probably won't protest because it doesn't cost them one way or another. If they are in the former category, they have incentive to protest because they pay the full cost of your unemployment checks.
So, yeah, these little technicalities can make a big difference.
I worked for the Department of Employment security, Unemployment Compensation Division and learned the ropes, and also worked as a human resource person and learned the other side.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Informative)
Laid off means you begin your 6 week waiting period before you start qualifying for paid employment insurance benefits in Canada.
Fired with cause means you are not eligible for EI benefits, and rarely happens.
Quitting means you aren't eligible for benefits, either.
But if you're laid off, you get your 2 weeks severance plus a payout of vacation benefits. If you quit, you're legally entitled to your vacation benefits. If you're fired, you're still entitled to two weeks severance plus vacation benefits.
Personally I like it when an employer decides they want you to leave now instead of letting you work the two weeks -- they're required to pay that two weeks in that case, because you haven't quit yet, so it's a layoff situation. Truth is, such layoffs are about the only vacations I've ever had -- normally my vacation time gets consumed as sick time due to my migraines through the course of a year.
Ah, to be employable again. Ah well. C'est la vie. 'tis migraine city for me.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, A/C, it is true. I worked for the state unemployment department. They sent me to school to teach me all this stuff, then laid me off. Very funny in hindsight, though I didn't think so at the time. It is, of course, vastly more complex than what I was able to post here, but what I did post is completely accurate. Naturally, I got quite a bit of unemployment out of the deal! :-)
Subsequently I went to work for the firm where I spent the vast majority of my career, and at one point was the Personnel Officer. This was a time when the unemployment rules were changing a bit so, naturally because of my background, I was tasked to figure out what we should do. We had to make a choice between becoming a reimbursable employer or one which paid 3.5% as a tax. I determined the former was better for us because we were fairly stable, and that should we find ourselves in a layoff situation, we should switch to the tax beforehand. By being reimbursable, we saved approximately 2/3rds, so it was a good deal for us. The firm still does this, though I am quite convinced they have no idea why they are or how they got there.
Later computers began to "get big," and once again, because of my prior interest and the fact I had one of the first Apple ][ computers, I wound up in IT, where I stayed 20+ years and wound up CIO. That kind of thing would never happen in today's world, but I was in the right place at the right time, so it did. When I retired we had 500 computers, 40 servers, and a 9 site WAN on fiber optic, a far cry from the single Apple ][ on my desk we started with. What a ride!!
To the other poster complaining about long hours for employees, meh? That wasn't the point of the topic. We were discussing the proper way to quit, right?
TL;DR Bottom line: If you get laid off, it's the employer's fault. If you get fired, it's up to your employer to prove you were fired for cause. If you quit, it's up to you to prove you quit for cause. Saying the right thing and making the right decision means dollars in your pocket--or not. Your choice. It's not up for argument.
Re: (Score:3)
My company's policy is demonstrably variable on the issue of giving notice to employees on layoff situations. None has been given quite often for both hourly and salary employees in many cases, while in others, it appeared that the company let them stay until they could find other work. (It all depends on who you know I suppose)
But the policy on paper is that notice should be given but it is at the company's discretion. But in the event you are notified, you are required to stay the full time and perform
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Almost always.
If you are being fired for cause – that is you are no good at your job – the boss tends to sit down with you to remediate the problem – expectations and deadlines are set. So the sacking is usually not a surprise. Only gross / dangerous actions get you kicked out the door ASAP.
If you are being fired without cause – such as a company reorg – then yes, I have seen people escorted to the door – but almost always with a severance package of greater than 2 weeks
Re: (Score:3)
Shit, being laid off can be profitable.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Funny)
I had a co-worker who got a year’s worth of severance after only working for 2 weeks.
As soon as he was hired the company sold his division to another company and the company offered a blanket severance package to everybody who would stay for the 9 months to close. His supervisor looked at him, looked at the 6 month training schedule, and everybody decided there were more profitable things to do.
Respectable thing to do... (Score:5, Insightful)
2 week (Score:3, Informative)
Re:2 week (Score:4, Informative)
If you're referring to this [virginia.gov] you have an odd definition of "all companies" and should realize that this only applies to mass layoffs. Many layoffs are far smaller.
Re:2 week (Score:4, Interesting)
I am from Virginia. Not only is this news to me, but it's news directly contradictory to my personal experience.
Whenever you know they won't give you a reference (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whenever you know they won't give you a referen (Score:5, Funny)
If the author works for a helpdesk in Louisville Kentucky that has a name similar to a certain muscle do yourself a favor and just get out.
Rock?
Venis?
Bergina?
Janus?
C'mon, man, don't leave us hangin!
2(Wrong) != Right (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, dude, if you want to walk out, then walk the fuck out. Don't look to the community to justify your behavior; obviously you're not 100% convinced that not giving notice is acceptable, otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question, now would you?
Me, I give my two weeks, regardless, because I'm better than that. If they want to let me go then and there, well, that's their prerogative. I get to keep my moral high ground by not stooping to their level.
YMMV.
Re:2(Wrong) != Right (Score:4, Interesting)
The rules change so quickly these days, sometimes it is nice to touch base and see what they are on a given day.
Two weeks notice is not treated the same way it was 30 years ago. Then, in most jobs it was pretty sacrosanct. It seemed to me that after 2000, companies were much more likely to let people go immediately without pay. I think it may be partially due to insurance liability if you are in any kind of sensative job.
Layoffs have legal notice requirements (Score:5, Insightful)
If a large company is going to have a layoff they legally must give notice.
OTH, a friend of mine gave notice trying to be nice because she felt loyal to the company and was immediately fired.
Personally, I think if you give notice and they do not give you two weeks pay, then you should be able to be legally counted as fired. They can't both say you quit and ignore your two week period.
Re: (Score:3)
Personally, I think if you give notice and they do not give you two weeks pay, then you should be able to be legally counted as fired. They can't both say you quit and ignore your two week period.
I agree - if I give two weeks notice, that's me telling the employer that I'm quitting... in two weeks. If they decide to let me go before that period is up, then they are the ones who terminated employment, not me.
Re:Layoffs have legal notice requirements (Score:4, Interesting)
Very true. What most people forget is that when you are laid off you are normally given a couple of weeks or more notice, just that the company doesn't normally expect (or want) you to show up for those two weeks.
About 10 years ago I was laid off from a large company after being given my termination date about a year in advance. If I stayed on for the whole year (to help ease the transition of my job to several sites overseas) then I would get a rather large bonus for staying on.
Of course the last couple of months I was there I was bored to death since my job was already transitioned and I was just sitting on my thumbs in case something unexpected came up and they needed to consult me. I spent my days surfing the web, and doing job searches. When I had job interviews I told my boss and he gave me the time off to go to those. By the time of my exit interview I had a new job and reported to it that job that afternoon. I was able to pocket all of my severance and bonus for staying on until the bitter end, but in retrospect I wish I would have taken a little time off since I didn't take any vacation the previous year.
Re: (Score:3)
That is a very dangerous move for the company, especially if the friend wasn't going directly to another job.
The first and most obvious is the difference in unemployment payments. If you quit you generally don't qualify for unemployment checks. If you are fired you can get them.
Being fired means all kinds of legal requirements. Depending on location on the globe there can be many legal clai
Re:Layoffs have legal notice requirements (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/layoffs.htm [dol.gov]
Basic Provisions/Requirements
WARN protects workers, their families, and communities by requiring employers to provide notification 60 calendar days in advance of plant closings and mass layoffs. Advance notice gives workers and their families some transition time to adjust to the prospective loss of employment, to seek and obtain other jobs and, if necessary, to enter skill training or retraining that will allow these workers to compete successfully in the job market. WARN also provides for notice to state dislocated worker units so that they can promptly offer dislocated worker assistance.
A covered plant closing occurs when a facility or operating unit is shut down for more than six months, or when 50 or more employees lose their jobs during any 30â'day period at a single site of employment. A covered mass layoff occurs when 50 to 499 employees are affected during any 30-day period at a single employment site (or for certain multiple related layoffs, during a 90-day period), if these employees represent at least 33 percent of the employerâ(TM)s workforce where the layoff will occur, and the layoff results in an employment loss for more than six months. If the layoff affects 500 or more workers, the 33 percent rule does not apply.
WARN does not apply to closure of temporary facilities, or the completion of an activity when the workers were hired only for the duration of that activity. WARN also provides for less than 60 days notice when the layoffs resulted from closure of a faltering company, unforeseeable business circumstances, or natural disaster.
Just think of it as a courtesy. (Score:5, Insightful)
Giving notice is a way to give people time to wrap things up -- make sure your stuff is handed off to someone else if needed, start looking for a replacement, or whatever. It's done to be courteous, and to make things less troublesome for other people. I was in a small department where someone just suddenly left one day; out of the blue, email telling us he got a job he likes better and is gone now. Which sort of sucked, because we suddenly didn't have enough people for the workload, and we'd had things like vacations and whatnot planned, and everyone had to scuttle around madly making up for things with no notice, and any recovery plan (like finding a new guy) had to happen on top of suddenly dealing with this. Which sucked. If he'd given us two weeks' notice, we could have done stuff like ask him to update/annotate work in progress so we knew what was happening, and started looking for people, and had time to discuss who was rescheduling what to make up the hours.
So it's a nice thing to do, and if you don't do it, people might be mad at you. Sometimes that might be okay. Sometimes you know they'll be mad at you regardless. Sometimes you just can't deal with someone or something a day longer. In which case, well. You leave.
Think of it like any other courtesy. It's there to make things more pleasant for other people. Usually, things like that are a good strategy because they make other people like you better, which makes them more likely to help you if an opportunity to do so arises. If I run into a job that I know a bunch of my former coworkers could do, and I know a lot of people are looking for work, I might try to put some of them in touch with the prospective employer, right? Well, not the guy who ditched out without warning, obviously.
As with all social niceties, it's somewhat cultural, and somewhat role-dependent. The importance of giving notice is wildly different between, say, the sole sysadmin at a company, and one of a team of thirty junior sysadmins, none of whom ever "own" any project, but who are just going through a series of small assigned tasks which are always done or handed off by the end of the day.
Re: (Score:3)
Layoff... (Score:5, Interesting)
I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired
It depends on the size of the layoff; see: the WARN Act [dol.gov]. I was once given a paid 60 days absence before the actual layoff because they were shuttering the division. Gave me enough time to get another job, and get home from my first day of work to find a FedEx envelope with my final severance check.
That's how you downsize with class. Or, by being legal.
A European perspective (Score:5, Informative)
Earlier this year our head of maintenance announced he was leaving in 3 months time and it was greatly appreciated by the management.
It was very professional of him (that other word in the article) and gave us time to look for a replacement.
Obviously it helped he was going to a totally different industry and he could not possibly be accused of helping the competition.
Besides, a typical European contract has a similar notice for both employer and employee.
Re:A European perspective (Score:4, Informative)
In the US, companies treat people more like interchangeable parts, not as people.
Re: (Score:3)
Besides, a typical European contract has a similar notice for both employer and employee.
Yeah, to give another European perspective: I'm in the UK and I've never had an IT employment contract without a minimum notice period. They generally start at 2 weeks for either side, rising to a month's notice after the sucessful completion of a trial period.
It's A Business Transaction (Score:3)
Leaving your company, whether by your choice or theirs, and whether amicable or hostile, is a business transaction. It should be treated as such.
They have some value that they will get out of concessions you make, and you will get value out of some things that they offer. There is some extent to which you can trust them to be honest, and some extent to which you may believe they will be generous. The corporation has those same perceptions of you. You're both adults, sort of; you can have a frank discussion about the matter without getting hurt or angry.
So talk to them about it. Start with this question; "Does the company have a standard exit package under these circumstances?" Now you're not forcing the issue, and you're signalling your boss to think in business terms. Then you just talk through what each of you thinks is fair.
Want some fun ? (Score:3)
It's not all about you (Score:3)
Even if you don't care about the reference... How about showing your coworkers a little common courtesy? They're the ones who are going to be picking up the extra work you're no longer doing - give them some time to plan.
Just get on with your life (Score:3)
I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired.
I've seen it happen from time to time. Happened to my brother in law actually - he got several weeks notice and severance. Unusual I'll admit but not unheard of. The problem for companies giving notice to someone is that some people don't take it very well and cause problems. I had an employee quite just a few days ago and quietly sabotaged a bunch of stuff as a parting "gift". (nothing really destructive, just time consuming to undo) Most people would be sad to be given notice but would behave like adults. The problem is you can't tell who the ones are who will take it REALLY badly are ahead of time.
Once you're reached the point where you know it's time to leave, under what circumstances would you just up and walk out or give only a short notice?"
If you are leaving because you can't stand the place and there are no contractual or financial constraints on your behavior then just leave and get on with your life
There are only two reasons to give two weeks notice. 1) You are leaving under amicable terms, have the time to spare and out of courtesy want to ease the transition for your former employer OR 2) You need the cash and can't afford to walk out now. Two weeks is almost never enough time to really be of any meaningful benefit to an employer and many employers will escort you out of the building the moment you put in notice anyway. Unless you had a really close and long relationship with your boss/colleagues then you probably aren't going to be asking for a reference in the future anyway so what is to be gained by giving notice? Maybe it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside but the feeling isn't going to be reciprocated in many cases. The business will continue without you and in most cases you giving notice just gives both parties a couple of uncomfortable weeks together.
notice of intent to give notice? (Score:3, Interesting)
Does anyone have a good template for giving notice in such a way that if the employer immediately fires you, they can't say you "quit" in order to deny benefits?
Re:notice of intent to give notice? (Score:4, Interesting)
A CC of your resignation notice to your personal email.
I can see them trying to say "but he sent that email out *after* I fired him".
The obvious retort is "so you let a terminated employee access his computer and email account *after* you fired him?"
"But he could have forged the email..."
Hopefully by then, common sense would prevail.
Don't burn the bridge (Score:3)
Fine, worst case, so you're really pissed off. Your mgmt has royally screwed you and all your coworkers hate your guts.
Take the high ground. You never know if one day you run into them at some other company you being partners, vendors, whatever, and you don't want their last memory of you being the time you nailed your letter of resignation to the front door of the building.
This is probably not the case. So if you have some coworkers that you are ok with, giving 2 weeks notice means you aren't screwing them over.
By now there's probably 100 posts saying the same thing, " Don't be a dick. Give your two weeks. If they walk you out, so be it, who cares if it's corporate policy or not. In two weeks start your new job and move on with your life."
Burning bridges. (Score:3)
Not giving notice is a good way to burn your bridges, even when you're leaving a bad environment. You're not just leaving an impression on management, but your coworkers as well. Even if those coworkers are sympathetic you'd still be dumping your workload on them.
One of my prior employers was terrible. Employees were overworked and under-appreciated and managers were impulsive, emotional and outright incompetent. I was brought on to help improve processes but within weeks it was evident the owners were paying lip service to getting anything fixed. Over the 6 months it took me to secure another job I toyed incessantly with how I'd handle my departure.
I ended up giving these guys nearly a month notice. There was a lot to be done and I didn't want to just dump all this crap on my team. I decided there was no value in venting, in pointing out all the problems there. It would never register and they'd just see me as disgruntled making my viewpoint even easier to dismiss. This way I left with a ton of contacts which may or may not be valuable in the future. At the very least, I don't have people going around behind my back giving me a bad name.
PHBs in charge (Score:4, Interesting)
Giving Notice (Score:5, Insightful)
Many years ago, I used to co-own a restaurant. A sous chef who had worked for us two years gave two weeks notice that would have him leave the day before Mothers Day for a "better opportunity". Since he was an employee in a key position, it would take longer than two weeks to interview, hire and train somone at his level. We asked if he would stay through Mothers Day (so just one more day and we'd pay him double time for that day) since we only had him and the chef (the other owner) to cook and it would place a huge burden on the chef. He declined.
It turned out that he did not have another job but just wanted to avoid working on Mothers Day (the busiest and most harrowing day in the industry). While I never gave him a bad reference (he was an excellent employee), he could not find a job in town because the kitchen staff talked about his day-before-Mothers-Day departure to their friends in other restaurants; they were pissed at him. He finally moved out of town to find employment.
MORAL: Leaving like a douchebag never pays off like you think it will.
Always be professional, Always give notice! (Score:5, Interesting)
When ever you can, do the professional thing and give the two (or more) weeks notice. It is always good to exceed expectations with employers. Go above and beyond what they expect or deserve. Always give proper notice, even when you don't want too.
I know it is tempting.. Man it would feel good to march down there and toss the resignation letter on the bosses desk and just say "So Long Sucker!" However, remember that this guy could be talking about you to some prospective employer in the future or you may run into him some other place. You may not know when or how, but it is *possible* his opinion of you may come around to haunt you. It's a small world. I had an issue with a past employer who got miffed it's not a good thing. I don't know how many jobs that cost me before I found out. Don't just hand somebody a reason to bad mouth you if you can help it because the world is pretty small sometimes.
I was laid off once, and I left my contact information with them. "Call me if you need anything I can help you with." They did call, multiple times. I helped them when I could. They didn't deserve it, having canned me, but I got good references out of being professional and helpful. Yea I was miffed at them for laying me off, but I was professional about it. In the end they realized that they had done the wrong thing and asked me to come back. (No, I didn't take the offer..) Proving that they made a mistake was WORTH the effort. I got lots of satisfaction in turning down their offer, but I still get glowing references from them... :)
Always keep it professional. Always leave on the best terms you can. Go out of your way if only to show them how a real professional acts. It may not pay off, but you never know when it might.
Re: (Score:3)
30 days? If they want 30 days they can _PAY_ and I'll work late hours for them. Very few new jobs will wait a month. What you are suggesting basically implies quitting before you find a new job.
Hypothetically: They should have thought of how dependent they were last round of raises. My loyalty, such as it is, is now to my new employer.
In my experience 30 days would rarely be enough anyhow. Better to leave them an email address/phone number and actually give them 24 hour turnaround answers. Not instant
Re:If you're entering any position where previous (Score:5, Interesting)
It's completely insane, and they missed out on getting a new COO because a decade ago the guy worked there & just gave a standard 2 weeks... And it wasn't discovered until they'd made the decision to hire him...
If neither party wishes to enforce that clause of the contract, and they both agree to ignore it, what would stop them from proceeding with the hire?
Absolutely nothing.
The fact is the company wished to enforce that clause more than they wanted to hire him. The contract did NOT force their hand, it was entirely their choice. Bottom line: the company your buddy works for is managed by idiots.
Places my wife has worked just have a blanket policy that they won't re-hire someone.
That's mostly a statement that:
"Look, if you leave, we're not your safety net while you look for a better job, we'll find someone else who is looking to stay with us."
This is fairly common, especially at, I'll call them less desirable "tier 2" employers that get used like safety nets by the employees. The employee gets a job, works for a while, finds a better job at a "tier 1" company, loses it a few months later, and then retreats back to their original employer. A few months later they do it again. And its not just one employee doing it, but a chunk of their work force.
In reality, the policy is selectively enforced. If they really want someone, they'll hire them, policy or no.
Re: (Score:3)
I saw a person I used to work with, when interviewing. I cut the interview short. Told them if they were the kind of place that hires him, I wasn't interested. Greazy bastard doing the interview acted like I'd just taken a dump on his desk.
Burned that bridge _before_ I crossed it. Dodged a bullet.
_Never_ burn any bridges you've got a period of work associated with. Obvious hell holes can be opportunities for fun and mischief.
Re: (Score:3)
This kind of thing works both ways, at least here in Netherlands. How is it a "human right" to have to suffer your old job for another month when you have a new one lined up. Or worse, having to miss an opportunity because the notice period is too long. As an employee I have nothing but disgust for these types or rules.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Informative)
Having previously quit a job without notice... I can tell you that there ARE good reasons to do it. I would just caution anybody who is considering skipping the common practice to be very hesitant to actually do it. It might seem like a good idea and provide some emotional satisfaction to boot, but the side effects can be far reaching.
In my case, I was verbally abused and threatened by my employer without cause. This was part of a pattern of behavior that included not paying me as promised and infractions of labor laws. One day I got yelled at for an hour for something I didn't do. It was bad enough that I came in that night, packed up my stuff and left my resignation, keys and company cell phone on my employer's desk. Needless to say, they where really upset with me then.
I was justified but I can tell you the ramifications of giving no notice and ticking off a past employer can be far reaching. Future employers are likely going to be checking your past employment history, calling and asking questions. Most employers are careful and don't say much, but some (like the one I had trouble with) where more than willing to dish out dirt, true or not. I'm pretty sure it cost me a few job offers before I found out and it took legal action to get them to stop.
Why do I share this? As a warning. You ALWAYS want to leave in the best way possible. Don't give them a reason to say bad things about you because it may cause you issues with future prospective employers. . Give the two weeks notice, more if you can. As you leave, do your best to keep it positive, give them your contact information and offer to be helpful even after you are gone. Don't burn the bridges unless you *really* have no other choice. Where it might be a nice feeling to just pack up and leave with a "Oh by the way, I'm not coming back. So long suckers!" The negative effects on your future job prospects are hard to know. Don't risk it.
ALWAYS give 2 weeks notice.. Unless you simply cannot stay another day for any reason...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I've walked out with no notice... (Score:4, Interesting)
I was once called into a meeting and told directly to lie to my clients.
I politely explained I could not do that and watched my manager's face turn red as he raised his voice and insisted I would.
The next day I walked out. The company had already bounced a few paychecks so I felt there was no obligation on my part to offer a two week notice.
After I walked out, my (former) manager began calling my client list and started bad mouthing me for my "unprofessional" conduct.
I found this out because later that day I received several calls at home from clients asking me to keep them in mind when I landed my next job.
Two clients even offered me employment. Most of my clients followed me to the next company I went to work for.
Years later, my former manager found me at a trade show where he walked up and directed a few insults my way.
After he walked away someone else remarked, "What a douchebag!" I just smiled and changed the topic.
I've regretted a few choices I've made in my career, but I've never once regretted my decision to walk out.