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Has the Apache Software Foundation Lost Its Way?

samzenpus posted about 8 months ago | from the stopping-for-directions dept.

Businesses 126

snydeq writes "Complaints of stricture over structure, signs of technical prowess on the wane — the best days of the Apache Software Foundation may be behind, writes InfoWorld's Serdar Yegalulp. 'Since its inception, the Apache Software Foundation has had a profound impact in shaping the open source movement and the tech industry at large. ... But tensions within the ASF and grumbling throughout the open source community have called into question whether the Apache Way is well suited to sponsoring the development of open source projects in today's software world. Changing attitudes toward open source licensing, conflicts with the GPL, concerns about technical innovation under the Way, fallout from the foundation's handling of specific projects in recent years — the ASF may soon find itself passed over by the kinds of projects that have helped make it such a central fixture in open source, thanks in some measure to the way the new wave of bootstrapped, decentralized projects on GitHub don't require a foundation-like atmosphere to keep them vibrant or relevant.' Meanwhile, Andrew C. Oliver offers a personal perspective on his work with Apache, why he left, and how the foundation can revamp itself in the coming years: 'I could never regret my time at Apache. I owe it my career to some degree. It isn't how I would choose to develop software again, because my interests and my role in the world have changed. That said, I think the long-term health of the organization requires it get back to its ideals, open up its private lists, and let sunshine disinfect the interests. My poorly articulated reasons for leaving a long time ago stemmed from my inability to effect that change.'"

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126 comments

Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (0, Troll)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 8 months ago | (#44680953)

We all know that the License was chosen to placate IBM, but really it needs to given to the LibreOffice Developers. Anything else is stupid.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (-1, Troll)

AbominousSalad (1774194) | about 8 months ago | (#44681201)

As a user, who finds OpenOffice to be a far superior app, I shudder that your hope might come true. LibreOffice is [expletive soup] crippleware.

LibreOffice team: please quit and join Apache OpenOffice.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (2, Interesting)

dmbasso (1052166) | about 8 months ago | (#44681273)

Could you elaborate on why LibreOffice is so much worse than OpenOffice? I use LibreOffice mostly for opening documents, or making some spreadsheets, so I have no idea what you're talking about (I mean, I'm no poweruser, for any serious documents I use TeX).

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

Lendrick (314723) | about 8 months ago | (#44681343)

Don't bother the guy. He's just shillin'.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

AbominousSalad (1774194) | about 8 months ago | (#44681493)

The hilarity of your comment could only be realized if you looked at my history of flinging hate at Oracle :)

http://thenthdoctor.wordpress.com/?s=oracle [wordpress.com]

http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2928985&cid=40396955 [slashdot.org]

Based on a quick eye-sweep at your recent comments, we seem to agree on some things.

Funny pun, though :)

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44683465)

I'm still waiting to see what becomes of mySQL. Some of my servers are still running 5.1 series and are stuck in the land before Oracle acquired it.

OpenOffice, I just stuck with OpenOffice, since "Apache"'s name to me is more a sign of stability than the developer-led oracle-hating poopstorm that prompted the creation of LibreOffice. Both projects should eventually merge back into one, or become more like FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD and just remain forked as long as each can read each others file formats.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44684261)

LibreOffice was not something completely new, it was based on an LGPL patchset that existed long before the project.
A lot of developers simply decided they'd rather join the _existing_ LGPL project than continue dealing with Oracle being idiots and failing to communicate. Or, if donating to Apache was an ad-hoc solution that wasn't planned before, Oracle was just being through and through idiots.
Either way, almost all Linux distributions have been "LibreOffice" long before the name came up, so which one is more stable can be questioned.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (5, Interesting)

AbominousSalad (1774194) | about 8 months ago | (#44681417)

There are interface bugs (fonts occasionally not appearing in drop down menus). It is crashy with big documents and heavy formatting. They make usability changes based on niche interests (making word counts non-modal, for example) which disrupt power users and can't be turned off.

I quit using OpenOffice on principle when Oracle started FUD'ing commercial users with ad campaigns to sell enterprise editions, but regretted it instantly. I was losing a lot of time to the slow performance, crashes, unreliability and disruption to my workflow. So I guess my only objective measurement is that my job was taking longer at almost every step, and the frustrations were growing with each release.

Now if I need to know what my word count is, Alt-T-W-(glance)-Spacebar is back in effect, which takes about 1 second. Since the non-modal word count was also (surprise!) as buggy as an old corpse, the LibreOffice alternative was Alt-T-W-(glance)-spacebar, crap I just accidentally deleted a paragraph, Ctrl-Z, triple-click paragraph, Shift-Left-Right (in case that would force the word count to update after the triple-click; it usually didn't), close word count, Alt-T-W, move mouse to the Close button, click. Time, about 7 seconds.

I forget most of the outright interface bugs. I do recall LibreOffice-Calc's font on tabs for sheets, is too small to read, and didn't respond to UI scaling.

The crashing was a big thing. TeX was before my time... if I were to use something other than a word processor for heavily formatted documents, I'd use HTML and CSS, which I've considered, except I don't know of a tool as convenient as File -> Export as PDF for making PDFs, from HTML.

That's the list I'm unable to purge from my memory, because of the many wasted hours I can't have back.

Wordcount in statusbar (3, Informative)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 8 months ago | (#44681559)

Now if I need to know what my word count is, Alt-T-W-(glance)-Spacebar is back in effect, which takes about 1 second. Since the non-modal word count was also (surprise!) as buggy as an old corpse, the LibreOffice alternative was Alt-T-W-(glance)-spacebar, crap I just accidentally deleted a paragraph, Ctrl-Z, triple-click paragraph, Shift-Left-Right (in case that would force the word count to update after the triple-click; it usually didn't), close word count, Alt-T-W, move mouse to the Close button, click. Time, about 7 seconds.

I look down at the statusbar 1 second LibreOffice FTW!

Re:Wordcount in statusbar (1)

AbominousSalad (1774194) | about 8 months ago | (#44681983)

Is it reliable about updating for your selection? Whole-document word counts are rarely useful to me, and LO's word count didn't work for selections when I uninstalled it. It always said my selection was 0 words long... or at least that was the case when I'd quadruple-click a paragraph to select it quickly.

Re:Wordcount in statusbar (1)

Trogre (513942) | about 8 months ago | (#44682147)

Perhaps not particularly helpful to you, but it works reliably for me.

On my currently open document my status bar says:
Words:324 Selected: 5

Re:Wordcount in statusbar (1)

IwantToKeepAnon (411424) | about 8 months ago | (#44685571)

... but it works reliably for me

Are "works for me" comments ever helpful? Just because it works for you doesn't mean the OP's complaints are invalid. All it means is that it works for you, bully for you. Obviously you are not in the demographic w/ the configuration that brings out the bug .... so what? So you have contributed nothing by your comment .... and now neither have I.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

pspahn (1175617) | about 8 months ago | (#44681921)

There are a number of libraries that will build a PDF from HTML+CSS. They aren't perfect, but they work.

Alternatively, there's always printing as a PDF, but I've never bothered to see if that treats all your elements properly (I assume it doesn't).

I've always hated the Adobe suite of web tools, but I can't imagine that Dreamweaver (or whatever it may be called these days) would have trouble building a PDF from HTML+CSS. Though, I wouldn't be surprised if that hunk of application did a poorer job than some PHP library.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

wiredlogic (135348) | about 8 months ago | (#44685537)

if I were to use something other than a word processor for heavily formatted documents, I'd use HTML and CSS

I think you'd be more productive writing in Postscript.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (2)

interval1066 (668936) | about 8 months ago | (#44681565)

Nothing wrong with LO. If it was full of bugs and problems we'd have heard about it long before now.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

DrXym (126579) | about 8 months ago | (#44683651)

LibreOffice (and OpenOffice) suffers a death by a thousand cuts. Lots of niggling nuisance behaviours, lack of refinement, lack of usability all make it a chore to use. They really need to make a concerted push at usability and performance.

Okay, you got it! (2)

patiodragon (920102) | about 8 months ago | (#44681679)

I am hardly a 'power' user of office software. I use it at home for some spreadsheats and word processing. The current Libre Office version in my Ubuntu 12.04... release freezes up my whole machine in ways OpenOffice never did.

There you have it. Anectodal evidence, but it is one data point. I could care less which one I'm using, but OpenOffice did work much better for me.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681859)

I don't have a stake in this on either side, but I run LibreOffice on Fedora at home and sometimes look at work pptx files. They rarely render properly, text is the wrong size and overlapped, embedded images are missing. It might be a problem with our corporate template, some of the objects that are inserted, whatever. But it is not useful to me for viewing work presentations.

Incidentally, while on vacation this summer I found google docs couldn't render them right either on my iPad... I had to ask people to send me pdf's to comment on them.

Guess I should have bought a surface!

Google Docs is garbage (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682909)

Anybody who thinks that it is good enough has never done anything but plain text.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

DrXym (126579) | about 8 months ago | (#44683623)

Instead of fighting each other they should be looking at the big picture and fighting the horrific usability that holds both branches back.

I'm using Impress at the moment to knock together a presentation and it's frustrating how many annoyances it has in comparison to Powerpoint - text rendering which jiggles kerning & spacing between chars depending on a box being in focus or not, highly irritating capitalization behaviour (JGit becomes Jgit even when I've added the spelling to the dictionary), numbering which puts the text way to close to the number such that they overlap, bullet boxes that can overflow instead of dynamically resizing, lack of intellisense (e.g. seeing a * or a 1. and knowing begin a bullet / number section), orphan bullets which are left there instead of cleaned up, "New Slide" buried buried in the tool bar when it would be more useful in the slide bar. It just goes on and on.

Both forks should stop back and look at themselves and their usability and dedicate an entire major release to improving it. Hundreds of little things which in themselves are merely annoying but in total sink the product.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (1)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about 8 months ago | (#44684087)

Could you elaborate on why LibreOffice is so much worse than OpenOffice? I use LibreOffice mostly for opening documents, or making some spreadsheets, so I have no idea what you're talking about (I mean, I'm no poweruser, for any serious documents I use TeX).

There is nothing wrong with OpenOffice it is developed, per the linked article, mainly be developers from IBM. LibreOffice is developed mainly by the original OpenOffice developers. Right now there are two similar code bases, but with time they will drift apart and follow the direction and vision of their developers and sponsors. The article about Andrew in the summary has more information on it and other Apache projects.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (3, Informative)

mr_jrt (676485) | about 8 months ago | (#44681319)

As a user, who finds OpenOffice to be a far superior app, I shudder that your hope might come true. LibreOffice is [expletive soup] crippleware.

LibreOffice team: please quit and join Apache OpenOffice.

As a LibreOffice user, I'm genuinely curious why you think this. I switched as I was sick of Oracle's meddling and Java-related issues, but I've found LO to be a much more pleasant product to use than OpenOffice, so I'd genuinely be appreciate if you'd elaborate why you feel OO is superior.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (2)

TheSeatOfMyPants (2645007) | about 8 months ago | (#44681539)

Why, what makes LO's team more worthy? Both suites are in active development, have a distinctly different focus (AOO for general use, LO adds features** for science/math projects) -- and, most importantly, the OO team is responsible for all of the core general-use changes that LO customizes & builds upon. It would make logical sense that the core product aimed at general users would continue having its traditional name, while the derivative (whether it's Libre- or Go-) takes a different newer one.

**which cause a massive performance hit on older hardware; my systems can run multiple 30kb odt files in AOO smoothly, but one instance of one document of any size in LO causes it to slow to a crawl. If the LO people left because they weren't being allowed to do *that* to OO, then it's for the better all around that they created their own derivative project.

Re:Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (2)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 8 months ago | (#44681597)

Both suites are in active development, have a distinctly different focus

Except there is very little Development of OpenOffice and they have the same focus...in fact its ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

AOO =TM + downloads + no diversity + few commits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682887)

Apache OpenOffice like Harmony before - propped up by IBM. LibreOffice has supporters from lots of companies and non-profits. They has 20000 commits per year, under 2000 commits at Apache and is innovating.

http://www.libreoffice.org/about-us/advisory-board/ [libreoffice.org]
http://www.documentfoundation.org/supporters/ [documentfoundation.org]

are any of the LibreOffice bugs filed that are complained about ? those guys need to know them to fix them.

Only an idiot would think that number of commits . (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682931)

... is anything more than just more commits.

You can have 1 million commits and the product doesn't even compile.

Re: Keeping OpenOffice Trademark a disgrace (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682227)

It looks like 50 million users dont give a *shit* about who kept the trademark or the license.
Perhaps its the LibreOffice guys who should going the Apache Way and not the other way around.

50 million cant be wrong (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682981)

I agree. Best make decisions based on historic marketing and brand strength not technical merit ! Why user need feature ? Why user need real community when they have comfortable brand ?

DO NOT ACCEPT THE BLANKETS !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44680987)

They have the pox !!

Re:DO NOT ACCEPT THE BLANKETS !! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681189)

Hahahaha! Ass Creed 3.

decentralized on github??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681045)

if all of the decentralized projects are on github, then they are not decentralized... github is the center.

Re:decentralized on github??? (2)

xxdinkxx (560434) | about 8 months ago | (#44681087)

more like a center. It is trivially easy to add a second or n++ remotes to a git repository. github is hardly the biggest threat to open source.

Re:decentralized on github??? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681945)

so they aren't "decentralized on github", then...

  if pull requests to the master repo of a project can only be made through github, then github is THE center.

Re:decentralized on github??? (1)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | about 8 months ago | (#44683139)

Yeah github... fork projects to your heart's content. After all, "a point in every direction is the same as no point at all." Projects without focus and process are hard pressed to survive. That is the advantage Apache brings. But sure, when process trumps progress, things need to change. But it doesn't change the fact that any process is better than none.

Re:decentralized on github??? (1)

dkf (304284) | about 8 months ago | (#44683969)

if all of the decentralized projects are on github, then they are not decentralized... github is the center.

The repositories are decentralized; losing github wouldn't maroon the code. But other things are still centralized as far as I can see, notably including issue databases. That's not very important for a small project, but for a large one that's absolutely critical.

FUD (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681051)

Look for the mole working hard behind the scenes to make the Apache Foundation flounder.

Name me some quality Apache products (1, Troll)

oldhack (1037484) | about 8 months ago | (#44681055)

The web server glides on pure inertia. The libraries are not much less work than rolling your own. Their documentation is a joke.

Re: Name me some quality Apache products (2, Interesting)

i_ate_god (899684) | about 8 months ago | (#44681063)

Solr for starters

Re: Name me some quality Apache products (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682281)

Solr? That's the software that drove Michael Crawford insane. He used to be the world's best debugger. Now he's in jail, getting buggered.

Stay Away From It.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681135)

The web server glides on pure inertia. The libraries are not much less work than rolling your own. Their documentation is a joke.

Not really any different to the FSF, and all they really have is the userland for GNU/Linux distributions. In 3 decades they *still* dont have a production kernel.

Linus is Awesome (3, Interesting)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 8 months ago | (#44681249)

Not really any different to the FSF, and all they really have is the userland for GNU/Linux distributions. In 3 decades they *still* dont have a production kernel.

The FSF is just doing great, and their kernel is still being developed albeit not on the scale on the similarly licensed and awesome Linux. Which is kind of the point. The reality is the FSF does lots of things. The License still succeeded even if Linus values it for its Tit for Tat qualities as opposed to freedom, but its there, and its close enough to being free software. The also do a little more than a kernel. I someone who is not a Fruit Lover, I personally wished that they had got further with Gnash, a free Flash implementation. I hoped it would open up Flash Development with all the positives without the down sides.

The bottom Line is Linus is so Amazing

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (0)

mark-t (151149) | about 8 months ago | (#44681683)

Oh, just drop the prefix on Linux already. Linux is no more GNU/Linux than Minix is GNU/Minix. Consider that the GNU tools were ported to Minix, just like they originally were for Linux, and in the past, Minix has been distributed with a complete GNU toolchain set, just like Linux is. Linux was and is GPL, but it is not and has not ever been part of the GNU project.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (2)

Clsid (564627) | about 8 months ago | (#44682389)

So I guess by the same metric, Android isn't Linux either. It is called GNU/Linux, not GNU Linux, the difference being that it is the mix of both tools, not saying that Linux comes from GNU.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (2)

mark-t (151149) | about 8 months ago | (#44682793)

Calling it GNU/Linux is suggesting that Linux is just as much a part of the GNU project, as much as gcc, flex, bison, bash, gawk, gdb, and other tools. It is not. It's Linux... not GNU/Linux... the prefix was added by people who simply got tired of waiting for Hurd when Linux did everything that they wanted, and serendipitously was also released under the GPL, but it was not ever part of the GNU project, so GNU/Linux is as much of a misnomer as BSD Linux (since Linux can be distributed with BSD tools instead).

If being distributed with the GNU tools were sufficient to put a GNU prefix on the OS, then, as I said, Minix should be GNU/Minix. The HPUX system that I used in when I was in university had all GNU tools replacing the standard ones, but it would be an error to say I was ever using GNU/HPUX.

The GNU tools were *ported* to Linux... just like they were to every other system, and by virtue of Linux being highly similar to sysv,, and ultimately actually posix compliant, that port was trivial. But that doesn't make it GNU.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

petit_robert (1220082) | about 8 months ago | (#44683607)

"the prefix was added by people who simply got tired of waiting for Hurd"

Wrong : the prefix was added by Richard Stallman himself, who wanted people to remember that if Linus Torvalds did the kernel, GNU built the ecosystem it resides in.

I heard him in person saying this in a speech over 10 years ago.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

mark-t (151149) | about 8 months ago | (#44685327)

GNU built the system that Minix resided in as well.... that doesn't make it GNU/Minix.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

petit_robert (1220082) | about 8 months ago | (#44685477)

I never heard RMS talk about GNU/Minix; I did about GNU/Linux

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

mark-t (151149) | about 8 months ago | (#44685725)

Just because RMS makes up the notion that Linux is somehow part of the GNU project doesn't make it so.

Let's try a car analogy.... I might manufacture almost all of the parts for an an automobile body, but when somebody else puts those pieces together into a single car, the car is still branded with *their* name... not mine.

Redhat Linux, Slackware Linux, Debian Linux, Gentoo Linux, Ubuntu Linux.... these are all reasonable. GNU, however... does not construct their own distribution of Linux, so GNU/Linux is a misnomer (I'm not entirely sure of the trademark logistics if the FSF were to make their own distribution of Linux and in so doing, consider it part of the GNU project, but if they were to... it would seem to be reasonable to call *that* distro GNU/Linux).

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44685979)

GNU is indeed very important for Linux. You need GNU CC (gcc) to build it, for starters. Then GNU does provide lots of little Unix command-line tools, which are essential for practical Linux systems.

So RMS is quite correct in calling it GNU/Linux.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44684655)

Jaaaj that discussion again! Fuck off, retard.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

module0000 (882745) | about 8 months ago | (#44685061)

Are you sure that after you read the facts - you come to that conclusion? I suppose if you have a Freightliner brand semi truck, and a Acme123 Diesel Engine product as the engine - you say you have a Acme123 truck?

You also know you can run Debian(and friends) on a Linux kernel, FreeBSD kernel, or Hurd kernel - with the same user land tools? That's because of GNU! Any of those kernels on their own would be crippled without the incredible suite of userland tools GNU provides. The idea that you don't want to give credit to a core and very important piece of technology that you use each and every moment in Linux is sad.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

mark-t (151149) | about 8 months ago | (#44685401)

I have no problem giving credit to a valuable toolchain... but as I said, I've used other systems that had utilized the GNU tools... but that doesn't make them part of the GNU project. The tools were ported to Linux, just as they were to every other OS that exist for. It's Linux, not GNU/Linux, any more than HPUX, Minix, or AIX become "GNU" simply because the toolchains were ported to them as well.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681177)

Solr, hadoop, activemq?

Seriously.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681289)

Hadoop was based on Google code. Solr was based on CNET's code. I can't really think of much that has come out of the Apache Foundation that is 100% homegrown open source and has a steady, active, mature development cycle. Instead it's all fluff and it just feels like to me that unless you're one of the top 20 Open Source software projects out there, that nothing new is coming across.

Anyone else wonder if this has something to do with App Markets and the ease of which one can make money?

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

exomondo (1725132) | about 8 months ago | (#44681601)

Anyone else wonder if this has something to do with App Markets and the ease of which one can make money?

I'm not sure it can all be blamed on app markets, but in part that could have an effect. In that scenario, given that the code is free the ability to make money is really based on marketing. People will pay a couple of dollars to save them the hassle of pulling down the source, building it on their PC and then uploading that to their phones but anybody can do that and in the end the best marketer will win out. Of course then there is also the person who is happy to publish the binary for free (no cost) which is another competitor. So then how does the original code creator make money from it? Nobody is paying for tech support contracts in that area and additional features are available to everyone because of the nature of free software. I'm not saying it can't be done but the traditional methods of making money from free software don't really apply in that market.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681687)

Hadoop is in no way based on Google code. It is just based on Google paper and theory.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

Pseudonym (62607) | about 8 months ago | (#44682961)

I can't really think of much that has come out of the Apache Foundation that is 100% homegrown open source [...]

...including, I might add, Apache HTTPD.

Of all of the complaints which could be levelled at the Apache Foundation, this one has to be the least relevant. One of the roles that TAF plays is as a place where you can send your code (as long as it's useful and falls under their purview) to ensure that it's looked after.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (5, Informative)

epiphani (254981) | about 8 months ago | (#44681219)

ActiveMQ, Ant, Avro, Cassandra, Derby, Geronimo, HBase, Hive, Hadoop, JMeter, Lucene, Maven, Pig, Solr, Subversion, Thrift, Tomcat, Zookeeper.

Don't underestimate the impact Apache has had.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (2)

RabidReindeer (2625839) | about 8 months ago | (#44681435)

ActiveMQ, Ant, Avro, Cassandra, Derby, Geronimo, HBase, Hive, Hadoop, JMeter, Lucene, Maven, Pig, Solr, Subversion, Thrift, Tomcat, Zookeeper.

Don't underestimate the impact Apache has had.

Subversion was originally tigris.org. Geronimo and Derby were IBM products (all donated). Also log4j.

Apache has developed or adopted more products than I can count. OpenJPA, Apache Commons, Axis, CXF, Velocity, Struts. The list goes on and on.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

dkf (304284) | about 8 months ago | (#44683941)

Subversion was originally tigris.org. Geronimo and Derby were IBM products (all donated). Also log4j.

Apache has developed or adopted more products than I can count. OpenJPA, Apache Commons, Axis, CXF, Velocity, Struts. The list goes on and on.

That's part of what they do — provide umbrella support for projects with things like hosting, governance, legal and stuff like that. They're clear indicators of success, of impact. Coding isn't the only thing that a project needs. (FWIW, CXF has definitely been developed quite a bit since adoption.)

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682777)

ActiveMQ, Ant, Avro, Cassandra, Derby, Geronimo, HBase, Hive, Hadoop, JMeter, Lucene, Maven, Pig, Solr, Subversion, Thrift, Tomcat, Zookeeper.

Just recently I tried downloading Apache for win32 only to find the latest version currently available from their web site does not have any IPv6 support. Very disappointing.

Never had much respect for most Apache Java projects. Tomcat is extraordinarily slow, unreliable and eats ram like its going out of style. Non-sql databases are useless to me and ORM/persistance is too often misused by those with no understanding or respect for underlying coherency model.

Re: Name me some quality Apache products (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44685215)

Tomcat slow, unreliable and fat? Runs in 12MiB heap, competes in performance with httpd and has never, ever crashed in the 32 server-years we have had it running in production. If you werent able to get it to work, it was probably your buggy application.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44683083)

The problem with Apache is that the few decent projects give a better name to some of the utter crap that they push out as being production ready. Even looking at your list, almost every single entry on it has an alternative that is simply better. I'm really tired of having to be the one that's constantly showing people exactly why some Apache library they want to incorporate into our product is wrong-headed or poorly implemented.

Yes, there's a few quality projects, but nothing that's essential. And the amount of garbage that they push out completely outweighs any good they do.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1, Informative)

AbominousSalad (1774194) | about 8 months ago | (#44681225)

Ant, OpenOffice, HTTPD - all of which are best-in-class for serious use. Of course, there are other options for people who like playing with toys that resemble tools adults use.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (2)

Clsid (564627) | about 8 months ago | (#44682437)

OpenOffice is a good alternative, but by no means best in class. Maybe it is the only serious solution on Linux and that is a different thing. Best in class in that area is still Microsoft Office by a long shot, hell and even Corel WordPerfect Office, since it has some really cool PDF editing tools in the word processor itself.

But other than that, I think Apache is doing great, even if I never was a Java fan. They have very interesting projects like Nutch/Solr, Traffic Server and by being the main bastion of heavy Java open source development. And if one thing their projects have is their focus in stability, which is something of a lost art in a lot of places nowadays.

Re:Name me some quality Apache products (1)

kwerle (39371) | about 8 months ago | (#44681501)

Yeah, I guess I feel the same way.

Of the projects that folks have mentioned, there are a few that I would have considered using at one time, but none that I would choose to use, today.

All in all, it has seemed like Apache is where projects go to die for a long time, now.

Most GitHub repos are full of shitty code. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681101)

I just don't understand the arousal that so many people suffer from whenever GitHub is mentioned.

So much of the code there is utter, utter crap. I mean, it's now getting to the point where somebody tosses in some highly experimental code they wrote, with no comments, no supporting documentation, and usually a ton of bugs, yet it's considered a "project".

For crying out loud, GitHub makes the good ol' SourceForge days look good. At least we could count on those SourceForge projects usually being more than just a shitty Ruby script. They'd have at least minimal documentation, and even actual releases. They were, get this, actually usable!

Re:Most GitHub repos are full of shitty code. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681217)

So much of the code there is utter, utter crap. I mean, it's now getting to the point where somebody tosses in some highly experimental code they wrote, with no comments, no supporting documentation, and usually a ton of bugs, yet it's considered a "project".

Its convenient hosting, if youre not interested in being secretive about what youre doing then whacking code snippets (which is often what they are, many dont have any license at all) on public github is an easy way to access them from wherever and to share with people. It doesnt have to be production-level, shipping code, it can be a script you wrote for a very specific case that fails in all others, so what?

Yawn (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681171)

Clickbait article claims major open source software foundation is useless.

We'll always need software foundations -- or did you think people out there will work on open source software for free as their primary occupation?

Yea IIS just tends to work better (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681173)

And updating/patching it is easier.

really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681487)

I haven't had to patch apache.. ever?

Re:Yea IIS just tends to work better (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681693)

Hello Microsoft employee. Give me a break. I support both at work and I find IIS the most irritating piece of software. They still haven't fixed the SSI bug from 10 years ago where it doesn't return the correct status code in some cases.

The UI in IIS7 is dumbed down to a wizard level that I find annoying.

Apache has a superior URL rewriting feature. I'm constantly hitting up against how IIS handles redirects, rewrites and mappings to code.

I can be convinced that apache is stagnating and that other upcoming web server products are superior in some ways, but IIS fails on performance, reliability, configurability, availability of extensions and modules and general support. I'm not even counting that I have to run windows server against it.

IIS reminds me of Netscape Enterprise servers back in the day.. it is shiny and has a dumbed down admin interface, but when you actually start trying to use it, you realize it's lacking features you need.

Re:Yea IIS just tends to work better (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682293)

IIS doesn't lack features, it throws features in your face that you don't need. You spend your time navigating a GUI that is setup to deal w/ situations that you won't see 99% of the time. Then the features that you do need, such as binding to a particular network card, are handled somewhere else, or scheduled tasks are handled somewhere else, or directory security are handled somewhere else. IIS is for corporate LAN file sharing only and .NET LAN corp. intranet apps.

hmmm (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681317)

Apache Software Foundation... hmmm. let me think ... you mean the Java Yank Circle?

Apache and OpenOffice (4, Insightful)

Lendrick (314723) | about 8 months ago | (#44681445)

I've never understood why they were so keen on helping Oracle thumb their nose at LibreOffice the rest of the FOSS community. My opinion of them took a nosedive when they did that, as I'm sure did many others'. What was the point, exactly?

Re:Apache and OpenOffice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682689)

Just a guess - they wanted to remain close bedfellows with the folks who control Java, because they had invested so much effort into Java based applications. This is where the Foundation went astray. They pinned their fortunes on a technology they did not control. Happens all the time.

Re:Apache and OpenOffice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44683825)

Because they are not on the job of censuring content, and by that, i mean that they don't forbid any project to become an apache project just because there is a splinter group elsewhere.

Check in their docs how a project can become an apache project...

Re:Apache and OpenOffice (1)

hey! (33014) | about 8 months ago | (#44685601)

I've never understood why they were so keen on helping Oracle thumb their nose at LibreOffice the rest of the FOSS community. My opinion of them took a nosedive when they did that, as I'm sure did many others'. What was the point, exactly?

Er... You *do* know it was the LibreOffice folks who left the OO community to start a new fork, don't you? The motivation for the fork was that they considered Oracle untrustworthy. I happen to agree, but I don't see that Oracle acted maliciously in its short stewardship of OO. People who expected Oracle to contribute support to an "Oracle is Untrustworthy" OO fork weren't being realistic. Oracle was not obligated to support LIbreOffice, any more than you'd expect Red Hat to support CentOS. And under the circumstances you could hardly expect them to be enthusiastic about handing over a project they were supporting with paid developers to an organization founded on the assumption it was untrustworthy.

When Oracle decided to divest itself of OO, the decision to maintain the original fork wasn't unreasonable, was beneficial to the community, and was not necessarily hostile towards LibreOffice, any more than Canonical was being hostile toward Debian by creating Ubuntu. As long as the maintain file format compatibility, it's a good thing to have competing visions in the office suite space, just like it's good to have competing visions in the Linux distro space. I think two competing projects will be more creative and responsive to user needs than one larger project where everyone has to agree on priorities for the next release.

Betteridge's Law (2, Interesting)

Xtifr (1323) | about 8 months ago | (#44681599)

Once again we have a clear example of Betteridge's law of headlines [wikipedia.org]: "Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

Betteridge's Law (1)

tuppe666 (904118) | about 8 months ago | (#44681659)

Once again we have a clear example of Betteridge's law of headlines [wikipedia.org]: "Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

If it can be "Yes" too. Andrew C. Oliver clearly thinks so "I have a lot of respect for many of the people on the Apache board, but it's probably time for new leadership and a new perspective on what makes a successful project -- and when it should really, truly be allowed out of incubation and how to ensure private interests don't cloud judgement regarding that". The reality is the answer is more complex than that.

I understand Betteridge's law of headlines...I am simply tired of it being misunderstood.

Let's see how well a project does when it's sued (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681621)

Apache is more than just a place to host your code, it provides a lot of other infrastructure, including legal protection. I bet half the projects on GitHub would be dead with the threat of a lawsuit.

Re:Let's see how well a project does when it's sue (1)

Z00L00K (682162) | about 8 months ago | (#44682975)

It is worth to recognize that the licensing provided by Apache is different from the licensing provided by GPL, and that both have their merits and disadvantages.

As long as the organizations of Apache and GNU are aware that their existence depends on the license models they have both will continue to exist along with fully commercial licenses. There are of course a myriad of sub variants of licenses too of all of them.

When it comes to lawsuits - the only winners there are the lawyers. Everyone else will lose. Usually a lawsuit is like a traffic accident on a bridge - it slows the traffic for a while, but the traffic will catch up or find new paths and a few lawyers will get some lined pockets.

From the overall perspective it is important to realize that without the Open Source community the exchange of knowledge would be a lot lower and development in the commercial sphere would stagnate. Don't waste effort in trying to protect old stuff, put effort into going forward.

Why go with anything but the REAL Office (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44681721)

Go with Microsoft, a proven LEADER in office software. Something else is just that, SOMETHING ELSE. Do you support gay marriage? Gay love on the streets? Miley Cyrus on the tube? I didn't think you do, so why support anything but Microsoft, and Microsoft Office. For the professional.

Thank you for your support

Re:Why go with anything but the REAL Office (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44685845)

Ahh, that's a great propaganda opportunity. Microsoft is Anti-Gay. Have fun with taking the heat from that. SUCKER.

Has Teh ASF been infiltrated from within? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44682213)

I believe it has. Is this Ballmer's new gig? Would that be proof enough for the doubters?

Leadership in Virtual Communities (1)

mutherhacker (638199) | about 8 months ago | (#44683329)

Virtual communities like open source software groups or other virtual organizations have an inherent problem with leadership. The main reason is that it's not so easy for somebody to lead unless others see him talk in person. Charismatic leaders build consensus by convincing others partly because they present strong arguments, but also because people like to watch them talk as they are effective public speakers and often of above average looks.

In a virtual community most of that body language, charisma and good looks disappears in asynchronous, e-mail based communication. So for a person to lead a virtual community effectively, he has to be super knowledgeable on the subject and have lots credit to his name. Like Linus does or.. like.. Vint Cerf or, dunno some other famous tech person.

So ..yeah, it's hard.

Re:Leadership in Virtual Communities (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44685869)

What stops you to preach to your audience via youtube ?

Apache httpd (1)

jez9999 (618189) | about 8 months ago | (#44683711)

Where's the progress on Apache's httpd server? It's still mostly configured from a monolithic, messy text file with .htaccess files sometimes strewn around random directories. There is no web-based configuration even though it's a *web server*. There's no other GUI configuration, and building one to work with Apache's text file is very hard at best.

I've now switched to Cherokee [cherokee-project.com] and I'm not looking back. I'm not sure what happened to progress with Apache.

Re:Apache httpd (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44684315)

no web-based configuration even though it's a *web server*

What could possibly go wrong.

Re:Apache httpd (1)

module0000 (882745) | about 8 months ago | (#44685085)

A web server should not have a web server required for configuring said web server. What type of circular logic are you playing with?

On that note, what web server *does* have what you are describing?

Re:Apache httpd (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44685925)

Indeed. httpd.conf poses like sexy XML only to show its rotten teeth when you want to kiss it. Not XML, looks like XML on first look. Arrrrrrrrrrg.

Written by someone... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44683947)

... who is taking the Java perspective on the ASF. Granted, there are tons and tons of Java projects under the ASF umbrella, but the old guard (the seniority in the meritocracy) has very little to do with Java. That's one of them conflict points right there.

No. (1)

vikingpower (768921) | about 8 months ago | (#44684129)

The ASF has not lost its way. It has been overtaken by recent developments, mostly the massive flocking of projects and developers to github, and does not have an answer to that. Either the ASF reinvents itself, or it slithers gently into oblivion within a few years.

You lost me at Serdar Yegalulp (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#44684303)

Serdar Yegalulp has a track record of just making up non-articles as filler for InfoWorld, so why is he getting attention? At least Dvorak could be entertaining - Yegalulp produces endless filler.

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