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Live Q&A With Outercurve Foundation President Jim Jagielski

samzenpus posted 1 year,2 days | from the go-ahead-and-ask dept.

Open Source 98

Jim Jagielski is one of the co-founders of the Apache Software Foundation, a director of the Open Source Initiative (OSI), new President of the Outercurve Foundation, and as we mentioned yesterday, your interview subject for the next two hours. Mr. Jagielski will be answering your questions below until 2:00 ET (18:00 GMT). Please keep it to one question per post so everyone gets a chance.

Update: 2pm ET has come and gone. Mr. Jagielski might stick around for a bit and answer questions later so make sure to check back. A big thanks to him for his time and answers! Here's a link to his user page where you can read all his responses.

cancel ×

98 comments

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New Zealand (1)

schneidafunk (795759) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697255)

What are your thoughts on the software patent ban New Zealand just passed?

Re:New Zealand (1)

schneidafunk (795759) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697269)

*ban, is not the best word... software patent reform law is probably better.

Re:New Zealand (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697291)

Reform is what's required... and if it leads to an actual ban, well ... *grin*

Re:New Zealand (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697283)

My thoughts are that you can't discuss the issue of s/w patents in a vacuum. There are a LOT of bad s/w patents out there, and tend to muddy the water. So I don't have an issue per se regarding s/w patents in and of themselves, but as it is know, things are really broken. So +1 to NZ for taking a stand!

Re:New Zealand (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697301)

That's definitely a statement you've made. I think I can safely say I've read it and have understood it's content entirely.

Way to go, +1 to you for replying to the question.

Disastrous Outercurve outlook on s/w patents (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698653)

So I don't have an issue per se regarding s/w patents in and of themselves

It's quite clear then that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

The problem with s/w patents isn't that some s/w patents are bad or even totally ridiculous, but that the very concept of patenting algorithms is flawed.

Re: Disastrous Outercurve outlook on s/w patents (1)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44700957)

Ahh, but then s/w patents aren't necessarily patents of algorithms. Lets define, exactly, what constitutes a software patent by defining what a "good" one is, and then we can debate whether the concept is OK or not.

Re:Disastrous Outercurve outlook on s/w patents (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44701777)

> the very concept of patenting algorithms is flawed.

Why? Can you not invent an algorithm, just as you would invent a physical machine?

My Question (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697329)

The average Slashdotter is stupid enough to think they are smarter than average. Do you agree?

Re:My Question (4, Funny)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697349)

Only Anonymous Cowards :)

Re:My Question (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697513)

Quip all you want but it's a known fact that Slashdot is a refuge for morons. You being one of them.

Re:My Question (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698553)

And yet, you are here as well...

Strange, huh?

How Separate from Microsoft? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697341)

Outercurve was founded by but supposedly separate from Microsoft. But most of your projects are Office and Visual Studio plugins, Windows applications and .Net. How separate can you be?

Re:How Separate from Microsoft? (5, Interesting)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697405)

Outercurve accepts projects from anyplace, although it's true that many of come from MS or have a distinct MS orientation. But that it common with all foundations when they start. After all, the Apache Software Foundation started w/ "just" Apache; Eclipse w/ Eclipse and even the Linux Foundation was about Linux itself. But foundations grow beyond their initial roots, and that's what we're doing w/ Outercurve.

Apache Harmony (1)

Teckla (630646) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697357)

Are there any plans to ever revive the Apache Harmony project (Open Source Java Platform), or is it dead forever?

Re:Apache Harmony (5, Interesting)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697423)

As long as Oracle controls the EA and JCP, and it does, believe me, there's no way that Harmony could be rebooted since their requirements for access to the TCK would prevent Apache from releasing Harmony as a real Open Source project, no matter what the license of the project.

Re:Apache Harmony (1)

GTRacer (234395) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698027)

In case I'm not the only one abbreviationally-challenged:

EA - ???
JCP - Java Community Process
TCK - Technology Compatibility Kit

Re:Apache Harmony (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698503)

Typo: It should be the 'EC' not 'EA': Executive Committee

Re:Apache Harmony (1)

GTRacer (234395) | 1 year,1 day | (#44709611)

Ah, cool! Thank you!

Apache Harmony is dead, but GNU lives? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698135)

But GNU Classpath does exist, and the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) comes with the GNU Compiler for the Java programming language. And then there is the IcedTea project, based on OpenJDK. So other free software projects do seem to exist. Of course they use the GPL (or a variant with exceptions like OpenJDK). So isn't it just that Apache is prevented but not GNU?

Re:Apache Harmony is dead, but GNU lives? (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698585)

The issue is that Oracle controls who gets the TCK and they put restrictions on it for Apache that they didn't put on for themselves (OpenJDK). Despite having a signed agreement to the contrary as well as agreeing w/ Apache back before Oracle bought Sun.

Weird, huh?

Re:Apache Harmony is dead, but GNU lives? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44700209)

That is weird indeed. But GNU also doesn't have the TCK. It doesn't seem to bother them. Why couldn't Apache do the same?
There are other free compatibility testsuites out there like Mauve. Or was it just that IBM dropped out and then all developers left?

Re: Apache Harmony is dead, but GNU lives? (2)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44701025)

Why? A couple of reasons. First of all, it was the basis for Apache entering into the EC and the JCP. Our involvement was predicted on the ability to obtain TCKs for Apache projects. Secondly, the ASF was promised it, but then denied the TCK (actually, an *open source compatible* TCK), and that's simply Not Right. Finally, the goal of creating s/w is that it be used, and the lack of certification significantly hampers that, as well as opens the project to submarine patents. Think Oracle is going to sue itself?

Biggest Project? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697411)

What's your biggest project right now, and is it Windows related?

Re:Biggest Project? (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697443)

I would say that the 2 "biggest" Outercurve projects are NuGet and ChronoZoom. NuGet is MS related (think Maven for .NET) but Chronozoom is universal

Oracle & NuGet Package Licensing (1)

Tridus (79566) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697413)

Hi. The .net product manager at Oracle recently responded to a request to have the Oracle .net provider put into a NuGet package by refusing over licensing reasons: https://forums.oracle.com/message/11149050#11149050 [oracle.com]

It's not the legal concerns around downloaders. It's the legal rights around how uploaded software is treated.

-----------------

https://www.nuget.org/policies/Terms [nuget.org]
User Submissions.

Outercurve does not want to receive confidential or proprietary information from User through the Web site. Any material, information, or other communication User transmits or posts ("Communications") to the Web site will be considered non-confidential and non-proprietary and Outercurve will be under no obligation of any kind with respect to such information. Outercurve will be free to reproduce, make derivative works from, use, disclose, and distribute the Communications to others without limitation. At our sole election, Outercurve may provide authorship attribution by listing User's name.

-----------------

As soon as I upload something to the Outercurve Foundation (via nuget.org), I've given them plenary rights to the software. That's a big problem for most commercial software distributions, including ODP.NET.

  If you're an open source vendor, then this policy is fine. If Outercurve wants to distribute commercial software, it cannot co-opt ownership rights. This is the biggest issue, but there are others. For example, how can Oracle ensure that no one else on the site represents themselves as Oracle? There's no way to authenticate the "author", especially if you're downloading directly within Visual Studio.

Fundamentally, all these business issues can be boiled down to characteristics of open source (i.e. bazaar, torrents) distribution. If Outercurve introduced closed source/commercial-friendly (i.e. cathedral, iTunes) distribution, it would eliminate pretty much all of Oracle's business/legal concerns. But Outercurve is devoted to working with corporate developers in open source environments. If the component is closed source, then it doesn't fit within Outercurve's mission. That makes me skeptical they would ever support commercial distribution.

Essentially, Oracle would need to open source ODP.NET just for nuget.org distribution. That is like putting the cart before the horse.

Now, if somebody created a commercial software NuGet distribution channel, people could purchase, rent, or try out commercial software from it. That would be something Oracle would consider. That's why I asked about an alternative popular NuGet feed.

Since Outercurve is specifically mentioned here, do you have any comment on this? Is there plans to fix the situation for freely available (but commercial) tools like the Oracle provider?

Thanks.

Re:Oracle & NuGet Package Licensing (4, Informative)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697477)

I am not aware of the details of that situation, but, to be honest, I'm not sure what they are talking about. The policy terms are similar to those of numerous FOSS organizations, which are based around the idea of openness and transparency. That's what the point of that statement is regarding User Submissions.

Re:Oracle & NuGet Package Licensing (1)

Tridus (79566) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697531)

The situation is essentially that the base NuGet repository is a highly convenient way for Visual Studio users to get packages, and people want the Oracle .net provider to be there. Oracle says they can't put it there because it's not open source (it's free as in beer).

Former /. Editor (0, Troll)

Antipater (2053064) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697415)

As a former Slashdot editor, what are your thoughts on the current state of this site, as compared to in the past? Were there true "glory days" compared to today, or is that simply grass-is-greener nostalgia? Do you have any comments or suggestions for the current editing team?

Re:Former /. Editor (3)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697523)

Slashdot is now one of many great places to get info; back in the "glory days" it was one of a very small number.

I think that relevance is hard to gauge in many ways, and that's why more "crowd-sourced" venues are popular, because they allow the masses to determine what's important and not. But, as can be seen w/ Wikipedia for example, the masses aren't always "correct" :) But relying on known experts and people *really* in touch w/ the community is also a Good Thing and could be encouraged a bit more.

Seriously (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697425)

Did you ever consider the the implications that Outercurve backwards is Evrucretou?

Re:Seriously (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697835)

Evah rever on.

Never heard of him or "outercurve" (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697435)

So why should I care? Ohhh, maybe because of this:

"September 2010 CodePlex Foundation renamed to Outercurve Foundation"

Ahh, so it's just Microsoft still trying to re-invent open source to meet their corporate objectives (aka, NO GPL!!!!) and as usual Slashdot sells slashvertisements to the highest bidders.

LAME.

Re:Never heard of him or "outercurve" (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697549)

Actually, they do have a GPL project.

Re:Never heard of him or "outercurve" (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698091)

Uh oh. He's onto us.

Attic (3)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697439)

How tough is it to consign a project to the Attic?

Re:Attic (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698089)

The Apache Attic?

Open Grumpiness (0)

Noodlenose (537591) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697451)

Why is Theo de Raadt so grumpy? NN

Re:Open Grumpiness (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698081)

Who knows... maybe because he lives in Canada

*duck*

I was a *joke*

Software freedom (3)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697453)

If you care about software freedom, why doesn't your organization promote copyleft type licenses like the GPL?
Sadly, the apache license doesn't require others to release the code, and helps proprietary projects.

Re:Software freedom (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697553)

I do care about Software Freedom, but I also care about User Freedom itself. Open Source and Free Software have a lot more in common than people think, but it is the differences which people focus on and which, imo, make it easier for FLOSS detractors to "prove" that FLOSS is broken. Apache may focus on the ALv2, but Outercurve accepts all Open Source and Free Software licenses.

Re:Software freedom (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698545)

Also, to be clear, even though I'm mostly associated with the ALv2, I hack and develop code under a bunch of other license as well, including GPL, et.al.

A license is a tool, and you pick the license based on how you want, or don't want, your code to be distributed, used and shared. There is no one-size-fits-all license, and your choice of license should be done with some thought, not based on who has the longest or bushiest beard. :)=

Re:Software freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44702795)

It's not user freedom which is at risk with the GPL. It's actually corporate freedom which is at risk when their grasp on their proprietary software weakens. If all the software were AGPL for example, it would be harder for a corporate giant to subjugate it's users, and ultimately individual user freedom would be greater.

Re:Software freedom (1)

Teckla (630646) | 1 year,2 days | (#44699757)

If you care about software freedom, why doesn't your organization promote copyleft type licenses like the GPL?
Sadly, the apache license doesn't require others to release the code, and helps proprietary projects.

The software company I work for can't use code licensed under the GPL. Thankfully, Apache projects are not GPL'd, so we can contribute back to them.

Think about that for a minute.

Re:Software freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44701195)

The software company I work for can't use code licensed under the GPL.

Wow! Did a judge issue an injunction or something?

Why so popular? (0)

His name cannot be s (16831) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697471)

âoeMr. Burns, Your Campaign Seems To Have the Momentum of a Runaway Freight Train. Why Are You So Popular?â

Re:Why so popular? (5, Funny)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697763)

Dashing good looks. Expert coding skills. Oratory skills of a god. And exceptional humility.

Any particular targets? (2)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697487)

The OuterCurve Foundation mission statement [outercurve.org] says the Foundation "has no pre-suppositions about particular projects, platforms, or open source licenses." But are there some specific projects that you, personally, would like to work with? Projects you think would benefit the open source community greatly by what you do?

Re:Any particular targets? (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697857)

For me, Open Source is all about empowerment and enabling people to share information for the betterment of mankind. So I am personally drawn towards projects that enable that at some level. I am also about education and advocacy of that empowerment, and that's why I enjoy speaking and presenting about Open Source and communities as much as I do.

Of course, some projects are just fun to hack on and scratch some little itch that I have...

Hadoop's outrageous popularity (2)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697497)

Is Hadoop going to take over the world? Or, I guess an appropriately in-scope question is, do you plan for Hadoop to take over the world? And if so, what happens when it is so aggressively co-opted by private companies that it becomes too difficult to maintain as an actual open platform (ahem Android)?

Re:Hadoop's outrageous popularity (5)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697993)

Open Source will take over the world... Hadoop will be one, of many, open source projects that enable that.

Dla cziego Apache nie robisz DNT? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697517)

See subject-line (jak sie masz/dzien dobre/czesc, Polak - ja jestem polak tesz):

Subject Line Translation (I haven't written polish in 40++ yrs. so pardon it IF it's grammatically "off", thanks) = "Why doesn't Apache honor the Do Not Track initiative?" (in case you don't read/write polish natively, assuming you ARE in fact, Polish as am I, that is).

Is it a conflict of WHOM you cater to? I.E.-> I understand MOST folks are online, especially with servers, to make money... ads money/tracking money, doubtless "talks" (they say 'talk is cheap', but not when "the Holy Dollar/Ca$h" does the talking).

APK

P.S.=> Personally? I don't *mind* that you don't - why?? I wrote up a freeware that helps in that capacity (vs. trackers, spammers/phishers, adbanners (good & poisoned both since they're bandwidth robbers or poisoners of systems), sites/servers/hosts-domains known to serve up malicious content in many forms etc.) - Apache NOT doing DNT only helps apps like mine really (but imo, hurts you some):
---

APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ 32/64-bit:

http://start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5851:apk-hosts-file-engine-64bit-version&catid=26:64bit-security-software&Itemid=74 [start64.com]

* Hosts do FAR more than AdBlock ("souled-out" to GOOGLE, & crippled by default) or Ghostery (Advertiser owned), RequestPolicy etc., do - especially considering the 1st 2 = "Foxes guarding the henhouse".

Hosts gain reliability vs. downed DNS servers & protect you vs redirected DNS servers as well + secure you vs. known malicious hosts-domains http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3985079&cid=44310431 [slashdot.org] w/ far less added "moving parts" room for breakdown, complexity, "Less is more".

---

HOWEVER: I feel, personally, that when your company didn't honor DNT & even patched vs. it http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409527,00.asp [pcmag.com] you hurt yourselves (to end users, NOT "money men advertisers" - the dichotomy you doubtless face)... thoughts?

.... apk

Re:Dla cziego Apache nie robisz DNT? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697649)

why's an honest question down moderated, almost instantly?

Re:Dla cziego Apache nie robisz DNT? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698387)

Because you're a moron known for being a moron, and even ignoring that fact. Your posts are barely intelligible.

Mr. Jagielski understood & answered me (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698621)

"elbigilletni ylerab era stsop ruoY .tcaf taht gnirongi neve dna ,norom a gnieb rof nwonk norom a er'uoy esuaceB" - by Anonymous Coward ANOTHER "ne'er-do-well" /. OFF-TOPIC TROLL on Wednesday August 28, 2013 @02:07PM (#44698387)

"???"

Could we get a translation of that off-topic "troll-speak/trolllanguage" of yours, please?

---

Per my subject-line:

It appears Mr. Jagielski understood me, perfectly (even in multiple languages I suspect) & answered my query... So much for you troll.

---

* QUESTION: Don't you have BETTER THINGS TO DO with yourself, other than "projecting" your OWN inadequacies onto others + trolling?

APK

P.S.=> Yes, it must have just have been another off-topic done nothing of significance with his life troll spewing his off-topic b.s. again & not contributing to the ongoing conversations. Oh well - No biggie!

("ReVeRsE-PsYcHoLoGy" (lol) from above, for trolls - Courtesy of this code by "yours truly" in less than 1 second flat):

---

#TrollTalkComReversePsychologyKiller.py (Ver #2 by APK)

def reverse(s):
    try:
        trollstring = ""
        for apksays in s:
            trollstring = apksays + trollstring
    except:
        print("error/abend in reverse function")
    return trollstring

s = ""
print reverse(s)

try:
  s = "Insert whatever 'trollspeak/trolllanguage' gibberish occurs here..."
  s = reverse(s)
  print(s)
except Exception as e:
  print(e)

---

... apk

Re:Dla cziego Apache nie robisz DNT? (5)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697775)

The whole DNT issue is now over and done...

Thanks for answering (do vidzenje) (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697867)

"The whole DNT issue is now over and done..." - by jimjag (68949) on Wednesday August 28, 2013 @12:52PM (#44697775)

Per my subject: It doesn't harm me Apache doesn't honor DNT (helps folks like myself actually, as I said, who do apps like mine is all).

I.E.-> When webservers don't "take up the slack"? It "opens doors" for apps like mine (or, moreso). I 'gain' (even though it's a freeware).

I was just curious as to "motivations" (money talks, trust me, I understand THAT like anyone else making a living who isn't a "trust-fund baby" etc.) as to the WHY of why Apache didn't honor DNT.

* My guess is that it's money talking (monetized web & all) - must've been a tough decision.

APK

P.S.=> I don't blame you that either - & I hope you enjoy my "attempt" @ speaking Polish (with a name like yours, you MUST be Polish I guess (Jagellonian Kings had similar names iirc, hence my guess on that account): Thanks for answering/dzienkuje... apk

Re:Thanks for answering (do vidzenje) (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697929)

Thx!

Yet another foundation (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697535)

Why do we need another foundation. Couldn't our time and money be better spent focusing on what is already out there?

Re:Yet another foundation (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697593)

In the trenches, it may seem as if FLOSS has won, but it hasn't... at least not yet. There is still quite a bit of FUD related to it, especially in the gov't arena. So any foundation or entity which helps promote FLOSS is useful.

Outercurve sets out to do some of the things that other foundations don't. For example, we are agnostic about governance models and which FLOSS license to use, which separates it from some more well-known foundations :) But also the main focus of OC to to provide in-depth assistance in mentoring projects and helping them reach their potential. It's a much more "hands-on" foundation, and that's why our mentors are so important. Most foundations assume that projects and people have a pretty good understanding of open source; Outercurve actually teaches it.

Benefits to Developers who are mentored by ASF (2)

Michael Van Geertruy (2958383) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697541)

Yesterday there were two stories on Slashdot that made ASF seem like it lost its way. I was surprised that nobody who was mentored through the ASF (as I was) has responded. How do you feel that ASF is when it comes to enriching the open-source developer community through its multiple mentorship programs?

Re:Benefits to Developers who are mentored by ASF (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697597)

Haters gonna hate.

Re:Benefits to Developers who are mentored by ASF (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697661)

But to your question: I feel that the ASF does a great job enriching the community, even if just because it realized that the *power* of the community is what drives open source and open source projects.

Why did you sell out? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697545)

Why did you sell out? M$ has harmed OSS more than any other opponents combined and still continues to do so today. You come from the Apache Foundation and the OSI, so what made you change sides and turn against OSS?

Re:Why did you sell out? (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697631)

What did Spock say was that old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China

Re: Why did you sell out? (1)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44701269)

Just to be clear, I did not "sell out" nor did anyone associated with Outercurve. It's a shame that little brains can only hold so much info before their lower intestines take up the load.

Re: Why did you sell out? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#44704539)

But you did sell out. You are working for M$ now and that's about as far as one can go in selling out. Assuming your intentions were good, what makes you think that you as one individual can turn 30+ years of sloppy coding, bad design, and unethical and unscrupulous business practices? M$ also has a long history of Embrace, Extend and Extinguish of competing technologies. From here it looks like you are helping them on the path. Why not work on bolstering FLOSS instead of helping a hostile entity shut it down. As you point out there is a lot of FUD against FLOSS. OuterCurve looks like part of that.

Re: Why did you sell out? (1)

dp619 (893918) | 1 year,1 day | (#44706873)

But he isn't working for Microsoft. What you're saying isn't true.

Re: Why did you sell out? (1)

dp619 (893918) | 1 year,1 day | (#44706887)

Do you even know what Outercurve does and who in the open source community is working with it? Look at who the project mentors are. Do you know that it will accept any license? Have you read its bylaws? That it provides resources for open source projects from *any* source? Ignorance isn't a virtue.

Re: Why did you sell out? (1)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,1 day | (#44708889)

Here's a dime. Buy a clue.

First of all, Outercurve != Microsoft.
Secondly, I work for Red Hat, which is open as Open Source as you can get.
Thirdly, I am also on the board of Apache and OSI. Maybe you've heard of them.
Fourthly, your ignorance is showing.
Fifthly, Bananas are the Atheists' Nightmare.

Outercurve = M$ (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,14 hours | (#44715035)

Then it looks like M$ has pulled a tooth from RH, AF and OSI in one move. Outercurve is sponsored by M$ [zdnet.com] . It was founded for and by M$. Assisting there further's M$ agenda against OSS. It has been good that you have worked for Red Hat and been at AF and OSI, but why throw that all away in order to further M$ goals against OSS? Their practices haven't changed at all not even recently so why join them? Helping them only hurts OSS.

Ballmer's retirement (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697561)

What are your thoughts on Steve Ballmer's decision to step down as CEO of Microsoft? Will it have any effect on the Foundation?

Re:Ballmer's retirement (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697611)

Outercurve isn't a part of MS at all. So it'll have no impact although, if the new CEO is more "understanding" of Open Source, it's likely that there will be opportunities for Outercurve and other orgs to help MS see the light.

Re:Ballmer's retirement (1)

Princeofcups (150855) | 1 year,2 days | (#44700039)

Outercurve isn't a part of MS at all. So it'll have no impact although, if the new CEO is more "understanding" of Open Source, it's likely that there will be opportunities for Outercurve and other orgs to help MS see the light.

Since MS is a publicly traded mega-corporation. They just happens to sell software as one of their meriad ways to make money, I don't see how they could be made to "see the light." Unless you mean to stop selling software as part of their business?

Re:Ballmer's retirement (1)

Kalriath (849904) | 1 year,2 days | (#44701545)

Open Source doesn't mean stop selling software. Just ask Red Hat, who aren't exactly small. And even being Open Source friendly doesn't mean doing Open Source yourself.

Why Outercurve over ASF or other Foundations? (1)

Michael Van Geertruy (2958383) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697647)

For developers of small open-source projects, how to Outercurve and the ASF differ? What are the strengths of Outercurve that would compel developers to use Outercurve over other foundations like ASF, Eclipse.org, or Github?

Re:Why Outercurve over ASF or other Foundations? (5, Insightful)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697721)

First of all, Github isn't a foundation. It's infrastructure. If all you want and need is someplace to host your project, Github is fine.

If, however, you want to build a *community* around your project, then you need the sort of help and guidance that a foundation provides. ASF, Eclipse, Outercurve, et.al. have some underlying "requirements" regarding that (for example, at the ASF the project must be under the ALv2, at Eclipse it must be the EPL (although there are ways around that)). Outercurve has the lowest barrier to that. OC doesn't force one license or another (it must be an Open Source license though), nor does it force a particular governance model, nor a specific infrastructure. In fact, I would suggest that people who are hosting their projects @ Github and really want them to be a viable Open Source project, *needs* a foundation like Outercurve to help them make that transition. Most projects on Github don't even have an associated LICENSE. Sweet Sassy Molassy!

Full Plate (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697779)

It looks like you have a lot going on already, what made you decide to take on the president job?

Re:Full Plate (5)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697815)

I am passionate about Open Source. So anything I can do to help with that, especially when it's directed towards the grassroots developers and their projects, I am drawn to. Being asked to be President allows for Outercurve to really ramp up the efforts started by Sam Ramji in making Outercurve an influential foundation.

Plus, I'm out of my mind. :)

Still write code? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697803)

It seems most of your efforts these days are focused on organization and leadership. I was wondering: do you still have a chance to write code? Is it something you still enjoy?

Re:Still write code? (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697887)

Yes, I still write a LOT of code, and I really enjoy doing it.

I would be remiss in not saying that I'm lucky enough to work for Red Hat, which is as passionate about Open Source as I am, and they allow me to indulge in all my Open Source efforts, from coding to the speaking/leadership stuff.

I think what's cool is that whatever organizational and leadership stuff I do, or am known for, arose from my actual coding efforts. It was all kind of "placed" on me, instead of me trying to grab it. And I am hardly unique in that regards. I love how open source does that, that the experts are those who walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk and not just talking heads.

HUGE "Amen" to that... apk (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698295)

"I think what's cool is that whatever organizational and leadership stuff I do, or am known for, arose from my actual coding efforts. It was all kind of "placed" on me, instead of me trying to grab it. And I am hardly unique in that regards. I love how open source does that, that the experts are those who walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk and not just talking heads." -

I've been in & around the art & science of computing since 1982 (1994 onwards professionally as both a software engineer & network admin): See subject-line - there's NOT ENOUGH of that which YOU speak of "going around" & it makes for BAD DECISIONS when the head doesn't KNOW what the ass is doing (or, how it does it, or who wants it)!

E.G. #1 (hate to say it almost, huge MS fan here): Mr. Ballmer...

* Man was TOO MUCH "business" stock-price wise, but NOT ENOUGH "in touch" with his actual consumer base & market, hands-on (VERY important, moreso than research by others by FAR).

I've seen it hurt companies, & as we ALL know - for years, and still even now, you have mgt. (especially top mgt.) that are NOT "hands-on" in the trenches. That never helps.

APK

P.S.=> I mean, from another 'field of endeavor', let use investing: Warren Buffet being a PRIME example! He is extremely successful - how/why? HE WON'T TOUCH what he himself doesn't have a FIRM grasp of is why (he steered clear of what dusted a lot of his peers in the world of investing, such as derivatives based on mortgage packages). "Our world" in tech, needs more guys like you, even to this very day (and yes, you've got it right - it makes for more saavy & competent leadership... you're NOT going to get "caught with your pants down" on tech questions, or directions of the market because of it)... apk

Re:Still write code? (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697953)

In fact, I *STILL* hack on Apache httpd... So that's about 18+ years of steady development on that project.

Microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697885)

Microsoft doesn't have the best record when it comes to open source, in fact it's terrible. What made you want to work for one of their projects?

Re:Microsoft (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697913)

Simply because they *don't* have the best record. One can either gripe and complain, or one can spend some effort in education with the hopes that you make some change for the better. No matter what, it's worth a try. And slowly but surely we *are* seeing some positive changes, and that's a Good Thing.

Question for everyone else (5)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44697981)

What efforts would *you* like to see Outercurve (or whoever) take on to benefit the FLOSS community??

Re:Question for everyone else (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698429)

I'd like to see it put more emphasis on the fact that it is a different entity from Microsoft. I think part of the reason that it still has so many MS-centric projects is because people perceive it as being MS, which leads to there only being MS-centric projects. It's a vicious cycle.

Re:Question for everyone else (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698487)

Put up a strong statement against software patents on your front page and make it a key component of your values statement.

What's in a name (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44697989)

I know it was before your watch but why the name change? What was wrong with CodePlex?

Re:What's in a name (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698029)

Mostly it was to disassociate the foundation with the Codeplex hosting service. People would, understandably, get them confused, and it further strengthened the belief that the foundation was a "sham" by Microsoft. So we went with Outercurve to create our *own* identity.

Why do I need a license (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698109)

Title says it all.

Re:Why do I need a license (5)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698271)

Without a license, whatever code you produce is assumed to be under a copyright. That means legally people can't make copies, etc... A License is what provides the freedoms and openness required to allow people to see your code, share your code, distribute your code, etc...

That's why all those projects on Github that don't have a license are soooooo scary. Even though you can fork, etc, you have no real *rights* to do much of anything which the code. It's the license which grants those rights and freedoms.

Would Outercurve have accepted the OpenOffice fork (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698177)

The ASF got a lot of critizism for accepting the OpenOffice fork when Oracle abandoned the project and dumbed it on Apache while the community was organized around LibreOffice at the Document Foundation. Would Outercurve have handled that situation similarly or would they have tried to work with the TDF to transfer the rights to the community?

Re:Would Outercurve have accepted the OpenOffice f (5)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698329)

Well, the question assumes that Oracle would have donated OpenOffice to Outercurve... I think it's kind of obvious that Oracle wanted it to go to the ASF and that other options weren't on the table. Now this could be implied as a Good Thing (a sort of olive branch towards Apache after the Java fiasco), or a Bad Thing (let those SOBs at Apache take all the heat), depending on one's world-view and mindset.

IMO, the "community" is much larger than "just" the LibreOffice community or the old OpenOffice community. The various versions and offshoots of OpenOffice are all part of this larger community, and so the question also assumes that "the community" is just LibreOffice itself, which I disagree with.

In all cases, IMO Outercurve would have handled it similarly to the way the ASF did: accept the code donation and welcome any and all comers with open arms. What would have happened after *that* is anyone's guess.

Shared Source (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44698279)

What are your thought on Microsoft's shared source

Re:Shared Source (4)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,2 days | (#44698519)

Both the Microsoft Public License and the Microsoft Reciprocal License are Free and Open Source licenses (as determined by the FSF and OSI). The others ain't and so there's no need to use them, imo.

Jagubox (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,2 days | (#44701807)

Is the Jagubox in mothballs? On ice? Six feet under? :)

Re:Jagubox (1)

jimjag (68949) | 1 year,1 day | (#44708913)

Ahhh... good ol' jagubox. I recall that old A/UX server warmly and credit it with my 1st real "claim to fame" on the Interwebs. But jagubox is, sadly, no more, having long ago been retired after I left NASA. There are a handful of mirrors around, last I checked.

Thx for the memories!

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