Big Jump For Tablet Storage: Seagate Intros 5mm Hard Disk For Tablets 201
cold fjord writes "ZDNet reports, 'Seagate on Monday took the wraps off a hard drive designed for tablets that brings 7x the storage capacity of a 64GB device with the same performance as a Flash drive. The drive, the Seagate Ultra Mobile HDD, uses software to boost performance. The idea is that Android tablet manufacturers will use the Seagate drive, along with the company's mobile enablement kit and caching software, to up the storage. The 2.5-inch drive is 5 mm thin and weighs 3.3 ounces. As for capacity, the drive has 500GB---enough for 100,000 photos and 125,000 songs.' More at The Wall Street Journal."
no thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
no thanks. I'm more interested in moveing devices from mechanical to solid state, not the other way around.
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Wonder how well the drive can take constant shocks and jostling that tablets are subject to. I may not be a HDD expert, but I wonder if just the tapping on a screen might be enough to cause a head crash, especially on a higher RPM drive.
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Yeah, the iPod was such a huge failure.
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Yes, but compared with what solid stat drives can do, it's a bad idea. Microdrives have been out for years, but outside of studio work, they were never very popular amongst photographers.
5mm? ARTICLE HEADLINE? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, folks, but these editors need to be keelhauled, boiled in oil, or tarred and feathered. When I see "5mm hard disk" in a headline that has no summary on the front page, I think that this is a micro-sized HDD that is 5mm wide. That would be an incredible jump in density! In fact, this is a STANDARD 2.5in sized HDD that is only 5mm thick. They have been making HDDs roughly this size FOR YEARS.
Occasionally, I come back here to read some "news," and I am quickly refreshed on why this site has sunken into
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The hard drives iPods used weren't 5mm thick.
Re:no thanks (Score:5, Funny)
No, they were 5mm thin. It was an Apple product.
Jason.
Re:no thanks (Score:4, Insightful)
Wonder how well the drive can take constant shocks and jostling that tablets are subject to. I may not be a HDD expert, but I wonder if just the tapping on a screen might be enough to cause a head crash, especially on a higher RPM drive.
There is no way that tapping the screen would cause a head crash with any hard drive. Disks inside laptops would be dead too soon if that was the case. However if you drop the tablet on a floor, we can start talking about whether this kind of drive would be damaged. Obviously, flash memory will be better in that kind of situation. Of course there are other components to take into consideration too, such as the screen, which might crack when the tablet is dropped.
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Wonder how well the drive can take constant shocks and jostling that tablets are subject to. I may not be a HDD expert, but I wonder if just the tapping on a screen might be enough to cause a head crash, especially on a higher RPM drive.
Generally, the smaller things are, the better values they have for such parameters as mass-to-cross-section ratio and other stuff related to mechanical sturdiness and shock resistance. I'd expect that smaller disks would be sturdier than larger ones for this reason alone. You don't have to be an HDD engineer for that. ;-)
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Wonder how well the drive can take constant shocks and jostling that tablets are subject to. I may not be a HDD expert, but I wonder if just the tapping on a screen might be enough to cause a head crash, especially on a higher RPM drive.
I still use a HighDef camera to record video and it uses a Hard Drive to store the information. I've shaken it enough to feel that taping a tablet with a HD won't cause it to crash. Shaking it heavily would cause the software on the camera to respond to keep the HD from getting damaged however so I would think a similar situation would happen on a tablet. I'm going to guess that a Hard Drive solution would be fine for a tablet unless you're shaking it violently around. Might be more fragile than a SSD if yo
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My old Palm Lifedrive (4 gig microdrive, CompactFlash sized) got bashed around a bit without a single problem.
They generally include accelerometers in to the drive its self so if extreme motion is detected it can park the head in a couple of milliseconds resulting in no damage at all.
You are right that if it is spinning and reading data when it gets impacted then you have issues, but if it is parked then it is fine.
Re:no thanks (Score:4, Insightful)
why would anyone let aged technologies play an important role in new devices?
Cost and capabilities. Spinny disks will be a lot cheaper, and hold a lot more data. If that's what you need, and aren't as concerned about shocks, durability, longevity, or access speed, then 'yay disks'.
Places where these might come in useful: Low end larger-screen digital media players. Kiosks (think of the tap-your-phone-number-at-checkout loyalty programs.) Smaller shelf signs and advertising in stores, where unit cost is the limiting factor.
Don't get too hung up in the idea that "tablet" means the same thing to everyone. It doesn't have to mean "usage model". Sometimes it can just mean "useful shape".
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why would anyone let aged technologies play an important role in new devices?
Cost and capabilities. Spinny disks will be a lot cheaper, and hold a lot more data. If that's what you need, and aren't as concerned about shocks, durability, longevity, or access speed, then 'yay disks'.
Places where these might come in useful: Low end larger-screen digital media players. Kiosks (think of the tap-your-phone-number-at-checkout loyalty programs.) Smaller shelf signs and advertising in stores, where unit cost is the limiting factor.
Don't get too hung up in the idea that "tablet" means the same thing to everyone. It doesn't have to mean "usage model". Sometimes it can just mean "useful shape".
Why would a kiosk require a 5mm drive? Why not a bog-standard 7mm or 9mm enclosure? The major issue is whether modern touch-based OSs (read: mobile OSs) are comfortable with the seek times of a platter-based device. I'm still unclear as to why this work is even worth it unless you really want to trim costs... especially when you can just outfit a large tablet into a kiosk, install some kiosk-mode interface, and have done.
But even kiosks are taking a hit - the move now is to do what Square has done and tr
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Price, price, price. If I'm buying 15,000 of them for video signs, kiosk usage, mounted-on-wall building controllers, or other non-handheld-tablet usage, you better believe there's a difference between a $179 bid and a $159 bid - and that difference will be a lot more important to me than access speed, G-force protection, or even potential multiple uses.
The thickness of the disk may or may not be important to my use, but if I can get large quantities of standard tablets that don't have to have their cases
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Cost is exactly the problem. It has not fallen in the 2 years since the price spike. Capacity has barely increased - you still cannot buy any internal hard drives over 2 TB for a reasonable price. The whole industry is stuck in the past - even logical 4k sectors that were agreed 2008 or so never materialised.
There is still a place for hard drives, and that is storing media files. HD recordings, picture collections, even large backups. But for most devices, SSD are the better choice.
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Serious question, what is "a reasonable price"? 4 TB *external* drives are about $160 now (amazon price), and internal drives a tiny bit more.. (but if one really wanted to, one could rip out the drive from one of these externals and use it internally).
That seems like a reasonable price to me.
Re:no thanks (Score:5, Informative)
no thanks. I'm more interested in moveing devices from mechanical to solid state, not the other way around.
Absolutely.
My old iPod I treat with utmost care because the little booger has a spinning disc in it. I've seen enough head crashes in my day I don't want one in something without a Field Service Tech a phone call away to handle. Also, I'm rather clumsy with some of my more delicate electronics (hence ordering an Otterbox Defender for my mobile phone) and have been known to damage things with shock.
Why not an SSD at this stage?!? Sure, it's a few extra bucks, but I wouldn't consider anything mechanical storage memory except in a RAID config in a static system.
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I used to speed walk with my old 5th Gen iPod with the 30GB spinning disk in it, tucked it into shirt pocket where it bounced around quite a bit. After all this time it still works just fine, though the age of the battery means I barely get 6 hours out of it and something happened to the audio jack recently so I can't hear anything out of it anymore; I've been debating on getting it fixed because it just works so well.
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Re:no thanks (Score:4, Funny)
At that point in time, the iPod had around 10 GB of storage, which may not sound like a lot, but a lot of other MP3 players at the time had something like 64 MB of storage.
Less space than a Nomad.
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Yes and for the privilege of having less storage space, you get to pay hundreds more and put up with the fugly design.
Sega Nomad (Score:2)
Less space than a Nomad.
A Sega Nomad with an EverDrive-MD adapter has 2 GB. Among iPod products, only the first-generation iPod nano and the first- and second-generation iPod shuffle have less space.
Re:no thanks (Score:5, Funny)
About 8 billion dollars worth of stolen material [ted.com], if we're to believe the lies of RIAA accountants.
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I actually want something to replace my ipod classic..
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But people actually used bought iPods.
that's the point. my ipod classic still works.
can I buy anything, a phone or a tablet, that would have the same amount of storage for media? no, I can not, even if I buy the phone with most built in storage and stick in the biggest microsd I can find.
thus I can see a need for this. the hd needs to be spinning quite infrequently anyways
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no thanks. I'm more interested in moveing devices from mechanical to solid state, not the other way around.
I suspect that you'll have enough change left over to wipe your tears away. They aren't even going to pretend that it's as good; but it'll be markedly cheaper and less awful than those "Just carry an HDD in a battery powered wifi enclosure and access it with our App!" abortions that people market as capacity expansion...
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I feel the same way, mainly because I don't store a lot of really bulky data on my tablet. That would be mainly videos and high res jpgs from dslr. I don't load videos because I don't want to feed the hollwoody mafia, nor do I want to get into surreptious downloading, and I don't want to deal with constant out of space on the flash drive. I don't use the tablet with my camera because connectors are a pain and Google doesn't build camera connectivity into Android because the leading project in that space is
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I was excited to read about this, and I'll cheer on Seagate for advancing this technology. I've owned an old 4th or 5th generation iPod for about 6 years, it has one of the 80gb small disks in it. It's been through everything and I've dropped it probably a dozen times (a couple really bad). Haven't had a single hardware issue with it (don't get me started on Apple's proble
Too bad tablets aren't modular (Score:4, Insightful)
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http://liliputing.com/2013/06/eoma-68-pc-on-a-card-goes-dual-core-supports-debian-linux-has-new-accessories-in-the-works.html [liliputing.com]
But, to take a narrow interpretation of your comment, tablets and cell phones are so monolithic because the big vendors want them to be, so we're forced into their proprietary app store/music store/pay-the-manufacturer-for-flash-memory-at-inflated-prices. It's become a manupulated market segmentation thing. SD card slots have b
The hell is 7x a 64gb drive? (Score:5, Funny)
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I don't know, but 640G would be enough for anyone.
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It's designed to replace the 64G of flash storage used in existing tablets, so comparing the new product with the old one is not unreasonable.
If your new Library of Congress was designed to fit in exactly the same space and have the same weight as a regular library, then saying that it has 6x the capacity of a regular library would be a useful point of comparison.
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Except that this isn't. It's a 2.5" laptop hard drive that's 5mm thick. In other words, they cut the thickness of a laptop hard drive to a little more than half their normal height and cut the capacity in half to match.
By my math, this hard drive takes up about 35 cubic centimeters of volume. A 128 GB SD card takes up about 1.6 cubic centimeters. All told, then, t
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Couldn't we just say 500gb up front and be done with it, instead of having a bogus multiplier on a meaningless size? What's next, "this hard drive holds 30 Library of Congresses, which are each 6x the capacity of a regular library?"
Too close to reality to need meaningless facts...
What is the image size in that newfangled 40MP phone that Microsoft
and Nokia are shilling for? Link a tablet to the auto-down load of
the phone and in no time the 500GB is filled up. Compound that
with HD video and this is nothing.
The resolution of a quality image on an iPad retina display makes a
decent screen to crop images for but no one tosses the master file
so 40MPx24bitcolordepth is a lot even when JPEG encoded.
Clearly the 100,000 photos could fill up
Re:The hell is 7x a 64gb drive? (Score:5, Funny)
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Sorry, Mr. USA translate-everything-into-our-outdated-measurements-standard. That's 1.62 LoCs for you, Yankee.
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Oh c'mon now, don't you always size your hard drive purchases based on the number of (circa-1997 quality) songs it holds? I thought all hardcore geeks did that.
That's 125 Ksongs to you!
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How about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IArxakPsPE0 [youtube.com]
SSD or GTFO (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:SSD or GTFO (Score:5, Funny)
Don't drop one on your nose. (Score:2)
The other night, I was watching Netflix in bed on my iPad. It was propped up on my chest, and I was using one hand to hold it upright. Well, at one point, my hand slipped, and the iPad flopped at what must have been light speed right onto my nose. Ever been hit on the nose by something hard? My eyes were watering, and the pain didn't go away for what seemed like millenia.
Anyhow, I'm not sure what might have happened to a spinning hard disk in this case, but I AM sure my nose would have hurt just as much
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There's "drop" and there's "drop". I don't drop my tablets on the floor on a daily basis. But I pick them up and set them down dozens of times each day. Sometimes I set them down flat, sometimes leaned against a book or sofa leg. Sometimes I throw them onto my bed or sofa. And occasionally I do drop them.
My desktop I pick up and set down approximately zero times a day and my laptop I pick up and set down two or three times a day and mostly it's not running when I do that.
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I'm not keen to have spinning parts in a device that I drop a couple times a day.
So you replace the tablet often??? Tablets screens will crack on a single drop if the screen lands on a hard surface [youtube.com] or usually shatter if the tablet lands on an edge as well.
Re: SSD or GTFO (Score:2)
I bought a cheap 7" Android 4.1 tablet from a company called Mediasonic in July 2012.
I bought it for my kids, and got it on sale for about $80 (+tax & shipping).
My kids are (now) 2 and three years old.
Surprisingly the tablet still works despite constant abuse from my kids. I should havr bought two, but I didnt think my kids would fight over it as much as they do.
Backward thinking?? (Score:2)
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Why?
Folks at Seagate also want to eat.
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The folks selling horse buggies/carriages also needed to eat. Don't tell me nobody working at Seagate saw the writing on the wall: the future is solid-state storage. Seagate, Western Digital and the others should be working with SSD technologies and funding holographic 3D storage technologies, not advances in soon-to-be-dead spinning physical media.
Moving parts in a device I throw around (Score:2)
Literally, throw tables on tables, drop them on the floor, all sorts of shit.
Seagate needs to get on the SSD bandwagon or shut up. A tablet with moving parts is pretty retarded.
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Sounds a lot like what a kid might subject a disk based iPod or Archos to.
We've already been there and done that. Spinning rust is not nearly as fragile as the fashinistas of tech want you to think.
"bandwagon" is the word for it. Usually associated with mindless following and bad rhetoric.
Sounds like a bad idea ... (Score:4, Interesting)
These things better be really reliable, because a tablet is going to get used in all sorts of angles, is likely to be jostled around a lot more, and might find itself in a case where the accelerometer of the device is being used to control a game.
SSD has the benefit of not having moving parts ... a tablet or a phone sounds like the last place you'd want a spinning platter to be used.
And 3oz is, what, just shy of a quarter pound? What does the 64GB of flash memory we're comparing this to weigh?
Sounds like trying to turn a tablet into a laptop or something.
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Oh, wait.
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....snip...And 3oz is, what, just shy of a quarter pound?....snip....
Since when is missing by 25% "just shy".
N.B. You must ante up 33.333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333%+ a bit to break even.
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"Sounds like trying to turn a tablet into a laptop or something."
which would suit microsoft just fine. windows 8 disc images utilize 6 4.7gb dvds 28 gb. just because android can be designed to install a factory image from a 4gb ssd, doesn't mean microsoft can do the same. a 500 gb hdd would suit the next gen surface tablet just fine.
Moving parts is undesirable for mobility (Score:2)
There's are very practical and unchangeable reasons why mobile devices use flash devices for storage instead of hard drives... and I'm really kind of surprised that Seagate would not have already realized this.
Moving parts means that the device is inherently more fragile... less resilient to shock, and introduces points of physical failure that don't exist with solid state storage.
A spinning hard drive means that you're going to be wasting a whole lot of energy driving the motor... probably more than
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We have an iPod 2 that is still functional and for awhile had more storage capacity than any of our fancy new smartphones.
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Moving parts means that the device is inherently more fragile... less resilient to shock, and introduces points of physical failure that don't exist with solid state storage.
Disk drives act like gyroscopes, however smaller drives can stop faster and have less rotational momentum at the same RPM.
Flash is shock sensitive too. I've ruined USB flash sticks by dropping them. I hate moving parts too, but I think it's possible to make a mechanical drive less shock sensitive then flash with the proper safety features. Your experience with standard drives isn't really relevant to these new mobile drives because they are very different physically.
I say give them a chance and we will see
Re:Moving parts is undesirable for mobility (Score:4, Informative)
Flash is NOT shock sensitive, check out this [digitaljournalist.org] link for proof. Cheap USB sticks with bad sodder jobs or cheap PCB's might be subject to shock but the flash itself is most certainly NOT.
Big fail (Score:3)
Storage media with moving parts are bad enough for laptops, let alone tablets that get moved around a lot, dropped, sat on, etc.
If Seagate suits really want to see this thing fly, it'd be much more interesting to put these drives into laptop for some badass RAID arrays.
Will the be as unreliable as CF-HD? (Score:2)
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Yeah, I have one of those. I have beat it all to hell and it still works. It's even one of those 5V ones, as pictured. I believe there actually were some 3.3 volt units but I've never seen one.
I'm just grumpy that my EOS 300D (hey, it was cheap and it still works fine) won't use my fancy UDMA-enabled 8GB card. It supports fat32 so the capacity isn't the problem.
"Solid State" means more than just power savings (Score:2)
And as another perk, strong magnetic fields largely don't affect flash, until you start getting into strengths that pose a health risk to the human using the tablet. The standard method of wiping a HDD uses a relatively weak (on the "causes huma
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The "fragility" posts seem a little off to me... (Score:2)
...because of surface-to-volume and scaling considerations, the smaller these things get, the less fragile they get. I dropped my iPod Mini (rotating drive) at least as often as I dropped my current flash-memory iPod and never had a problem. Yes, battery life is an issue. Quite possibly, service life might be an issue (bearing wear).
Seagate is claiming [seagate.com] 400 Gs maximum operating shock. I, um, gee, well truthfully I have no idea what that means in practical terms but it seems like a big number to me. They are
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Seagate is claiming [seagate.com] 400 Gs maximum operating shock. I, um, gee, well truthfully I have no idea what that means in practical terms but it seems like a big number to me.
A 100G impact will turn a human being into a collection of loosely assembled parts with an infinitesimal chance for restoration to correct function.
A 400G impact will turn a human being into goo.
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Well, typical ceramic/glass/china dishes are generally good for 100-125Gs of impact force. So, about 3x as durable as your mom's good tableware. Which is good, but probably not drive-away-with-it-on-the-top-of-your-car good.
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400G would definitely resolve that complaint, but shoving an enormous HDD into a tablet (roughly 35 cubic centimetres) is silly. That's a laptop-sized drive that would be too big for an ultrabook, let alone a tablet. Shrinking it down from 7mm to 5mm doesn't magically make it appropriate. That's many many times more volume than the eMMC in tablets consume... that's enough for an extra ~26 Wh of battery capacity, which is more than half the battery capacity of an iPad.
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When you're talking about 8mm thick tablets, that's a pretty hefty increase to get some spinning rust in there.
What's the big deal ? (Score:2)
There are already at least 480GB (close enough to 500, in books) **mSATA** SSD drives (Mushkin made the first I know of), which makes the drive in this post positively gargantuan.
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yes but how much do they cost?
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Price. A 480GB mSATA card runs $360+ retail. These drives will be around $90 for 500GB, a quarter of the price.
so why not use a standard (Score:2)
and call for msata to be added to tablets?
There are already 512 gig drives on the msata scale and they're tiny (51 x 30 x 0.8mm) so, why re-introduce mechanical harddrives which are larger?
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Cost. Your 512GB SSD is unlikely to cost $50 or so that something like this spinning rust would.
In fact, most 512GB SSDs cost around $500 or so, so unless you want to double your tablet price and then some (I'm sure Microsoft would love to tell you how well their Surfaces sold back when they were $900), using a huge SSD isn't really practical.
Spinning rust has be
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but the cost has gone drastically down. .50 cents per gig at some levels.
I bought a 64 gig micro sd for about 100$. Now i see it for less than 40$.
When ssds came out they were expensive, like 2-4$ a gig. Now it's less than
An ssd that's 1tb costs around 650$. In a year that will be 400$, in 2 years probably 200$. I don't see how "spinning rust" will ever get cheaper. It'll be replaced by solid state memory in no time.
Same performance as flash? Ha! (Score:2)
Putting 8GB of flash cache in front of a 5400RPM hard drive is not going to give you the performance of a pure flash drive. I don't care how good your caching algorithm is or how many rigged benchmarks you win (comparing only on sequential read/write doesn't count!), you're not going to be as fast. Particularly since flash scales performance with size - a 64GB SSD will be faster than an 8GB SSD of the same type, ignoring any hard drives it may be a cache for.
Will it be "SSD-like performance"? Probably, yeah
Garbage marketing from Seagate (Score:2)
I wouldn't call them desperate but I think they are seriously underestimated the intelligence level of their customers.
-Matt
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what does this have to do with intelligence?
most people i know can't be bothered with "secondary storage". and 32-64GB of storage is "too little". i know at least 2 persons who would like to carry their whole movie collection in their laptop so they bought CD-bay-to-HDD-bay converters to let them install a second 500GB or 1TB disk in their laptops.
Units, much? (Score:4, Insightful)
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I love the jumble of Imperial and SI units in the summary. Great work!
Maybe he's British? They like those kinds of inconsistencies.
Benefits? (Score:2)
I'm genuinely interested in hearing what the benefits of this are. It seems like mSATA drives are more or less on parity with this in terms of size and capacity, but have the benefit of increased longevity, reduced noise, and lower power consumption.
I honestly think spinning hard disks are going to go the way of CRTs within the next 5 to 10 years. And there's a high probability Segate will go with it.
You young whippersnappers... (Score:2)
Back in my day, we used a ragged piece of orange duct tape and a portable mechanical 320 GB seagate for our tablet storage and we liked it.
Silly me (Score:2)
I thought they were talking about a 5mm diameter hard drive, seeing as hard drive sizes have been reported in diameter for as long as I can remember. I was wondering how they were going to engineer something that small and still have a useful storage size. :)
enough for 100,000 photos and 125,000 songs (Score:2)
but how many Libraries of Congress?
Slashdot posts Press Releases? (Score:2)
So if I pay the WSJ to reprint my press release (which is what Segate did), will Slashdot post my marketing copy too?
Let's compare this drive to the size of an iPad mini (because I'm familiar with that tablet, insert your own tablet of choice).
This drive is 2.5" still; that's huge compared to the size of an iPad mini, 512GB of surface-mounted flash is half that size or less.
It is 5mm thick, the iPad mini is 7.2mm thick. Would there even be room for the screen? 512GB of flash is less than half that.
It weighs
Revamp of the "Microdrive" format (Score:2)
It's an iteration of the CompactFlash Microdrive format, really, not so revolutionary. I've got a 4GB Hitachi Microdrive bought maybe 5 years ago. The platter is probably about the same diameter, though with an obvious increase in areal density.
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Addendum: if the tablet makers (and others hadn't turned their backs on the CF format in favor of the smaller-but-performance-challenged SD and MicroSD formats, they would have been better positioned to deal with higher capacity micro-platter storage like this as a consumer add-on years ago. Then we'd now be seeing 500GB user-swappable CF cards instead of this internal fixed storage.
Still too big? (Score:2)
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The problem is he's given it as if they've achieved "7x the storage capacity of a 64GB device", which is quite disingenuous, because the two aren't the same.
It's kind of like saying this dump truck has 13x the storage capacity of your sedan -- which might be true, but you're talking about entirely different things. Of course, there are drawbacks to that dump truck and you can't use it for all of the same
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AC's post was about the "enough for 100,000 photos and 125,000 songs" bit, not the "7x the 64GB device" bit. He seemed angry that the article measured file size in a Common Joe fashion rather than a technical fashion, when in fact the article did both. That's like getting mad if an ad for a sedan claims "comfortably sits 5 people" as well as the actual measurement of interior volume.
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...yes and something you need to be able to express the moment you encounter someone that is not a computing professional.
Although I tend to express these things in terms of movies or TV episodes as that is what tends to take up most of the space on my own 500G Archos.
Plus 'danes can't relate to 100K photos any more then they can relate to half a terabye.
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