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Brazil Announces Plans To Move Away From US-Centric Internet

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the taking-their-toys-and-going-home dept.

The Internet 285

trbdavies writes "The Associated Press reports: 'President Dilma Rousseff ordered a series of measures aimed at greater Brazilian online independence and security following revelations that the U.S. National Security Agency intercepted her communications, hacked into the state-owned Petrobras oil company's network and spied on Brazilians who entrusted their personal data to U.S. tech companies such as Facebook and Google. The leader is so angered by the espionage that on Tuesday she postponed next month's scheduled trip to Washington, where she was to be honored with a state dinner.' Among Brazil's plans are a domestic encrypted email service, laying its own fiber optic cable to Europe, requiring services like Facebook and Google to store data generated by Brazilians on servers located in Brazil, and pushing for 'international rules on privacy and security in hardware and software during the U.N. General Assembly meeting later this month.'"

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Well, obviously (1, Insightful)

hsmith (818216) | about a year ago | (#44887885)

It makes it much easier to spy on your own citizens when you do that. They are just mad they don't have a piece of the action.

Re:Well, obviously (4, Insightful)

geek (5680) | about a year ago | (#44887899)

It makes it much easier to spy on your own citizens when you do that. They are just mad they don't have a piece of the action.

Regardless of their ability to spy on their own people I think this is a good thing and I say that as a red, white and blue American citizen. I don't like that we control the whole ball of wax. Its time other countries stepped things up and built on what the US started. The internet is supposed to be bigger than any one country.

Re:Well, obviously (5, Insightful)

Sir_Sri (199544) | about a year ago | (#44888369)

The internet is supposed to be bigger than any one country.

The Internet isn't supposed to be tied to country at all.

Oddly, I agree with Eric Schmidt on this - the big risk is if every country starts making their own internet fiefdom and it becomes harder to operate and connect internationally. Of course Eric Schmidt said this, as one of the companies responsible for helping with the spying he's worried about the ripple effects from.

Re:Well, obviously (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888573)

Don't think of it as a fiefdom, think of it as a jobs program for Brazil's tech sector. If the big players want a piece of the Brazilian market, and I think they probably do, then they have to have a physical presence there. Ditto the fiber connections to Europe. That has the added effect of making the Internet itself more robust. More transatlantic bandwidth is better, period.

Re:Well, obviously (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888689)

Hmm. A physical presence? No, they just need a VPN service in country so it LOOKS like they are there. Isn't that what all the users do so that it looks like they are in Canada and can watch all the curling events that aren't allowed outside of Canada? Or maybe that was TV shows that aren't allowed outside of the US. But anyway, Google and Facebook can just rent a nice, fast, VPN service in country and they will have a presence there as far as these politicians will ever know.

Re:Well, obviously (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888711)

Politicians have a tendency to hire people to enforce their laws for them.

Re:Well, obviously (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888621)

The internet is supposed to be bigger than any one country.

The Internet isn't supposed to be tied to country at all.

Oddly, I agree with Eric Schmidt on this - the big risk is if every country starts making their own internet fiefdom and it becomes harder to operate and connect internationally. Of course Eric Schmidt said this, as one of the companies responsible for helping with the spying he's worried about the ripple effects from.

What Brazil is doing is creating more direct links to other countries instead of having to route through the US. This increases Brazilian privacy, and helps make the the 'net more resilient (and possible faster) for everyone.

It's not about fiefdoms, but about each country being properly connected through their own resources instead of relying on others. It's just in this case there are other benefits to all the extra fibre as well.

Re:Well, obviously (1)

argStyopa (232550) | about a year ago | (#44888477)

Another American here, and I entirely agree. And I don't really mind the NSA spying stuff. I've just always thought that distributing the infrastructure is a good idea - even if that means that parts of it become shady, dangerous places, other parts are run by their governments, etc. Universality is better than monopoly.

Re:Well, obviously (2, Insightful)

tlhIngan (30335) | about a year ago | (#44888587)

It makes it much easier to spy on your own citizens when you do that. They are just mad they don't have a piece of the action.

Regardless of their ability to spy on their own people I think this is a good thing and I say that as a red, white and blue American citizen. I don't like that we control the whole ball of wax. Its time other countries stepped things up and built on what the US started. The internet is supposed to be bigger than any one country.

What happens is that the internet gets fractured - you'll have the "US Intenret", the "Brazil Internet" just like we have the "Iran Internet", and to a lesser extent, the "China Internet". All little networks running separate and independent.

Today the internet is bigger than any one country - even the NSA can't tap all of it, and it's likely the stuff they tapped they did things like running TOR exit nodes and monitored the data that way.

But tomorrow, the internet will shrivel up (hey, we don't need IPv6 anymore!) as every country runs its own version of the internet, and wanting to connect to the bigger part around it well, you're a terrorist.

Re:Well, obviously (4, Insightful)

s.petry (762400) | about a year ago | (#44887991)

It makes it much easier to spy on your own citizens when you do that. They are just mad they don't have a piece of the action.

Well, they could just be trying to imply that they didn't have a piece of the action. Like the Canada, UK, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, etc.. all acted shocked and appalled until it came out that their people were cooperating and collaborating with the US Agencies.

At least Brazil in this case appears to have some intestinal fortitude. The others I listed are just praying the stories all go away and maintaining business as usual.

Re:Well, obviously (1, Insightful)

Obfuscant (592200) | about a year ago | (#44888553)

At least Brazil in this case appears to have some intestinal fortitude.

Brazil, as a whole, seems rather uninterested in the matter. The Brazilian leader is making hay while the sun shines, as the saying goes. While the concept is interesting, the truth is that once a packet leaves your own wires you have no real control over where it goes.

This is the same kind of action that Brazil took in response to the US creation of a VISA processing fee. Brazil was quite up-front in admitting that their fee of the same amount was a direct response to the US fee for Brazilian citizens going to the US. Us old folks would say they cut off their nose to spite their face.

I'm particularly worried about the statement that they may require servers to keep data in Brazil. I manage a lot of data from Brazil, and their network infrastructure is so shaky as it is that it would be impossible to manage it remotely.

Re:Well, obviously (1)

s.petry (762400) | about a year ago | (#44888585)

I agree with you. I was merely pointing out that Brazil may not be innocent in the NSA spying ring. As far as we know they are, but a few of those countries on the list of collaborators (like Germany) I did find rather disturbing.

Re:Well, obviously (0)

mjwalshe (1680392) | about a year ago | (#44888131)

and Brazil has form in having protectionist barriers which means that pc's are much more expensive in Brazil.

Re:Well, obviously (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888229)

OH SHUT UP!! You fool! Just shut the fuck up already!

There is something called progress. Every step towards a better situation is progress. Dissing everything with your negative cynical attitude is harmful. I don't want to elaborate further and argue with fools. Get the point or get off my lawn.

Re:Well, obviously (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888329)

Well, and are they really that mad? The editor seems to have put quite a spin on the politics here.

"The leader is so angered by the espionage that on Tuesday she postponed next month's scheduled trip to Washington" -- is it so strange to reschedule something like this?

"where she was to be honored with a state dinner" -- she is a head of state... sure, she got invited to the cool kids table, but it's not like she's some city-level flunky.

Re:Well, obviously (2)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about a year ago | (#44888339)

Not every state is obsessed with spying on its citizens. Most, but not all.

Re:Well, obviously (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888367)

Who on earth is anyone kidding? There are far more intrusive options available than those operating every day of the week.

Re:Well, obviously (4, Insightful)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#44888387)

And how that is worse than being spied, controlled, and manipulated by a foreing country, one that had no problem supporting the overthrow of a democratically elected president in Brazil in 1963, and that don't have clear hands on the recent revolutions in the middle east. Remember, they are reacting to what US is doing, place the fault where really is.

Re:Well, obviously (5, Insightful)

X.25 (255792) | about a year ago | (#44888543)

It makes it much easier to spy on your own citizens when you do that. They are just mad they don't have a piece of the action.

You are an idiot and you don't realize that NSA has been intercepting SMS messages (by means of breaking into mobile operator network(s) in Brazil) of Brazilian president. And probably much more (other targets were not named).

Where does that fit into?

War on terror? War on child pornography, perhaps?

Intercepting Brazilian oil company mails/traffic is required in order to fight... terrorism?

Americans still do not understand the consequences of their actions (well, NSA's and government actions). People have given their trust to US government and their agencies, and USA has betrayed them at all possible levels.

USA has now publicy said that they are ok with what NSA has been doing - things that USA themselves consider to be 'acts of war'.

I presume now everyone else will consider it to be okay too.

Re:Well, obviously (1)

FatdogHaiku (978357) | about a year ago | (#44888559)

I think the move is very enlightened and by having a more Brazilian internet I look forward to seeing many, many more Brazilians on the web... Heck, I'm hoping everything ends up wide open!

ballsy move (3, Interesting)

dmitrygr (736758) | about a year ago | (#44887891)

If this sticks, it will be awesome, not for the security but for the statement it makes. Way to go, Brazil!

Me, too! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44887919)

If this sticks, it will be awesome, not for the security but for the statement it makes. Way to go, Brazil!

I agree! This is awesome! I'm going to start my own internet, too. Take, that Obama!

Re:ballsy move (5, Interesting)

morcego (260031) | about a year ago | (#44887935)

As a Brazilian, I have to say this is just the typical "full of hot air" attitude of the current government.
I don't expect anything more than some noise and a couple news flashes to come out of this. And a lot of wasted public money, probably being spent on companies owned by political cronies.

This is the same president that published an executive order (has force of law) that changed our language to include a female inflection for the word "president" (which was a non gender specific word, to begin with)

Re: ballsy move (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888227)

Even if it happens, it is meaningless in the absence of a Bazilian shadow banking system that competes with the interests behind the World Bank, the IMF and generalized New World Order fascism.

Re:ballsy move (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888321)

Pára de contar mentira na Internet, por mais que 'presidenta' seja feio pra caralho, ela não inventou o termo e ele é documentado na língua portuguesa há séculos. É só feio.

Agora, que ela faz um uso político do vocábulo eu não discordo.

P.S. Eu votei nulo.

Re:ballsy move (1)

eliphas_levy (68486) | about a year ago | (#44888605)

It's commonly accepted that on our brazilian portuguese language we do not change the gender if the article is sufficient to identify it -- "a piloto", "a gerente". Portuguese is sufficiently complicated and too many words as it is.

And yes, she made a law [planalto.gov.br] forcing to "genderize" words, at least on school certificates. Presidenta, yuck.

If you are jornalista or humorista, you are female now. How nice of her :D

Re:ballsy move (5, Insightful)

LostMonk (1839248) | about a year ago | (#44888461)

It might be only hot air on part of Brazil, but you can be sure that most governments of Europe and Scandinavia has similar feelings about it even if they aren't vocalizing it quite the same way.
Every major government right now is doing some serious inspections of where is their data flowing through, where is it stored and how trusty are the interests of those who control them... And you can bet they are not liking the answers they are getting.

Re:ballsy move (1, Insightful)

Tiger4 (840741) | about a year ago | (#44888033)

Its a great thing to decentralize from the US. BUT, it could just as easily mean more fragmentation. Just like China has the Great Firewall, Brazil could as easily make you swim the Great River Amazon. No I don't expect them to, but nothing says they can't. And worse, if more countries follow, more fragmentation of the same could make navigating the internet as bad as in the days of dial-up.
Or, you could get the UN and ITU thinking they know how to govern and make it all one big happy bureaucratic world. Leaving US control is good, but there is a lot of bad out there too.

Re:ballsy move (5, Insightful)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about a year ago | (#44888093)

Lots more international fibre might be a good thing rather that treating the US as a passive hub.

Re:ballsy move (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888451)

Good thing, until they are told that an anchor has broken the cable.

Shortly after, Brazilian deep sea divers find that there is a splitter with a third cable leading back to the USA.

Would could Brazil do in such a situation? would it be seen as an act of war?

Re:ballsy move (1)

ak3ldama (554026) | about a year ago | (#44888649)

Is the US hacking their civilian shit seen as an act of war? What about all the other countries we did this to?

Re:ballsy move (1)

Obfuscant (592200) | about a year ago | (#44888659)

Lots more international fibre might be a good thing rather that treating the US as a passive hub.

My doctor says I should eats lots more fibre, but the international part kinda violates the greenie mantra of "buy local", doesn't it?

Wait a minute (5, Funny)

Dunbal (464142) | about a year ago | (#44887913)

And they're going to do all that with Cisco routers, right? LOL

Re:Wait a minute (5, Funny)

Issarlk (1429361) | about a year ago | (#44888079)

No, don't worry they'll use Huawei routers... oh wait...

Re:Wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888117)

Nah, they are too expensive. They already use the much safer Huawei gear.

Re:Wait a minute (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888313)

We didn't have any cisco equipment when I was there. As far as I know, we used not a damn thing from the USA. We weren't even allowed to use Pascal and were threatened with arrest for using Delphi. Brazil has had heroic leadership for many years and thus anti-American import rules for decades. When I forced to leave Brazil, the company I was working for had just started using Lua. It's so good that several Democrats in the USA have demanded that it be considered a munition and Brazil banned from exporting it. It is that good. We don't need cisco garbage or Windows viruses to be successful. You USAers with your worship of Microsoft is ridiculous, and we laugh at it. Our policy of isolation has made us very successful. I just wish I was allowed to return.

Brazil is like the U.S. in the '50s (1)

KrazyDave (2559307) | about a year ago | (#44887921)

An up-and-coming, self-righteous, loved and respected (pretty much universally except by its indigenous population) economic dynamo with its first Olympics affirming her new stature. Now they just need to solve their local soccer-match dismemberment frenzies, child trafficking and rampant kidnappings of even middle-class targets and it'll be a regular Portuguese-speaking Mayfield from "Leave It To Beaver"

Re:Brazil is like the U.S. in the '50s (4, Funny)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about a year ago | (#44888103)

> "Leave It To Beaver"

The didn't call them Brazilians for nothing.

Re:Brazil is like the U.S. in the '50s (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888331)

*strokes beard*

I see what you did there.

Re:Brazil is like the U.S. in the '50s (1)

vbraga (228124) | about a year ago | (#44888427)

Add to that list massive internal debt, high inflation, sky high interest rates, slow economic growth, a bizarre, stupid and lazy justice system, high taxation, immense corruption, ...

Brazil doesn't resembles the 1950s US at all. And I wish really hard it did...

Re:Brazil is like the U.S. in the '50s (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888483)

You wish. The US was economically, militarily, and culturally dominant in the 1950's. Additionally, the cities were clean, crime was low, and the populace happy.

Brazil has none of these things.

But aside from that, yeah, the comparison is valid.

Re:Brazil is like the U.S. in the '50s (1)

Obfuscant (592200) | about a year ago | (#44888633)

An up-and-coming, self-righteous, loved and respected (pretty much universally except by its indigenous population) economic dynamo with its first Olympics affirming her new stature.

I know Brazilians who are absolutely terrified of how badly Brazil is going to handle the Olympics, and how poorly the incomplete and uncompleted infrastructure is going to perform when scads of people arrive hoping to see sporting events spread out across the entire country.

They are rightly scared that the big O will leave the country with a big black I (eye) in the eyes of the world. It's bad enough that there were mass riots not long ago based, in part, on the money being spent to build Olympic venues instead of on things like bus systems. This "new stature" is very likely to turn out to have scoliosis and club foot.

Won't stop the US, much less the NSA. (3, Insightful)

sethstorm (512897) | about a year ago | (#44887923)

At any point in that chain, the US can still snoop or put US-friendly people/technology in place.

and all of the places you are connecting to (3, Informative)

themushroom (197365) | about a year ago | (#44887933)

are outside Brazil, such as the United States, because beside a small collection of servers you want to call secure and local (Brazil's own webmail server, for instance) everything else is "out there". Including most of the "Brazillian content" such as info about the Rio '16 Olympics and all those hot photos of women at Carnivale.

(addenum) (1)

themushroom (197365) | about a year ago | (#44887987)

also wanted to add: Learn from China, Brasil, that while you can go at it alone, your people will still go under the wall for what they're looking for.

Re:(addenum) (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888119)

the plans are to have more control over where our data are stored and which nation can peek into it
there is nothing there about censorship

Re:(addenum) (2)

petermgreen (876956) | about a year ago | (#44888551)

The article is kinda vauge but AIUI they are talking about forcing american companies to store data about brazillians in brazil. Well that raises a few issues.

1: what are they going to do if some of those american companies tell them to go pound sand? Unless the company in question has a direct buisness presense in brazil it seems their choices are to either block connections (the "great firewall soloution) or lets things continue as they are.
2: If the NSA uses a national security letter to order the american parent company to get them some data on a brazillian what happens? Given a choice between breaking brazillian law and being punished for ignoring an american national security letter what do you expect an american company to do?
3: What happens when an amercian user and a brazillian user want/need to work together. For example suppose a brazillian user makes his calender accessible to his american friend. Should that calender be hosted in brazil? the USA? both? How will features like finding a slot where everything is free work if each country's citizens data has to remain within the country.

They are also taking about reducing reliance on the USA for connectivity to the rest of the world which just seems like good sense (afaict they already have one direct connection to europe but I doubt that is really enough) though it may well increase costs in the short term (US internet transit is CHEAP).

Re:(addenum) (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888673)

An American company would have to comply to the NSA letter, and as soon as somehow comes out that they used Brazilian data they would have broken brazilian law.
* The persons + leadership could be extradited (I believe the USA has never honoured extradition treaties so no worries there).
* The persons + leadership could land in jail if they wound up in Brazil somehow.
* Brazil could try to penalise the company if they do business in Brazil.
* Brazil could get economic sanction approved against the USA, like another country is now allowed to completely ignore USA copyrights.
* Brazil can put that company behind a firewall
* At the very least Brazil could educate its citizens that they should not do business with american companies.

From what I understand american companies are starting to feel the economic impact of persons and companies closing down hosting/cloud service contracts out of the USA. The NSA has basically destroyed that growing sector of the USA's economy; pretty much the only growing export sector that the USA had.

Personally I am in the process of removing all my data out of the U.S.A. and host it myself and in my own country.

Re:and all of the places you are connecting to (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888183)

Probably they are more worried about the NSA spying on their government communication than they are on the NSA spying on them as they enjoy sports and babes.

No problem... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888353)

Brazil can just substitute electrons with opposite spin using the southern hemisphere's corriolis force and creating a sub-atomic mirror for the rest of the world.

El Iternet Brazilliano Nuevo!
Todos Informacion: Nunca Riscos

Re:and all of the places you are connecting to (2)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about a year ago | (#44888437)

No, most content of interest to Brazilians is hosted inside Brazil. Even stuff on US sites is served from CDNs inside the country. Brazilians mostly look at local sites anyway, except for search engines and some social networks, and the government has already said it wants to make sure they keep Brazilian data in Brazil.

It's also a nice way to talk down US sites and products so that Brazilian ones can compete with them, similar to how the US has already banned Chinese telecoms equipment because it's too cheap and too good.

Good. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44887957)

And so she should.

And the NSA are the _real_ fucking heroes of the hour here.

If Gen. Alexander and his friends hadn't overstepped the mark so badly, then we wouldn't have this situation where their overreach have scored the USA (and the West) a massive own-goal.

General Alexander should fall on his sword.

Efficacy? (1)

lq_x_pl (822011) | about a year ago | (#44887971)

Outside of costing Brazil a significant amount of cash, I'm not certain what this will really accomplish. Despite all of the publicized outrage, the U.S. still has standing agreements with European intelligence agencies.

Re:Efficacy? (1)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about a year ago | (#44888091)

It's not meant to accomplish anything.

Re:Efficacy? (1)

Khashishi (775369) | about a year ago | (#44888127)

It will accomplish greater redundancy and greater throughput.

Re:Efficacy? (3, Informative)

gl4ss (559668) | about a year ago | (#44888261)

did it say in the story that they would move the datacenters into europe?

besides, unless they got shadow cabling they're not going to send all the data over to usa from europe.. which is what usa gets now when the data is routed through them.

another article said vladivostok for cable end, too.

and heh, this does accomplish money into brazil. by forcing facebook, google etc. to store the data in brazil they have to build datacenters into brazil.

Re:Efficacy? (3, Interesting)

mspohr (589790) | about a year ago | (#44888623)

TFA showed a "BRIC" fiber (Brazil, Russia, India, China) which would take a Southern route from Brazil to South Africa, India, China and Russia.
It will be good to have more connectivity and alternative routes. It also avoids Miami and the NSA where all of Brazil's data goes now.

Re:Efficacy? (2)

vbraga (228124) | about a year ago | (#44888307)

The only thing this is meant to accomplish is allowing the current administration to pose as being interested in protect some sort of "national sovereignty" and transferring some cash to government contractors - the standing Party needs cash to finance it's next run for the presidency. The half dead state owned phone company, Telebras, still exists despite having no customers. The government would finance the new cables, Telebras employees would get their kickbacks and funnel money into shady government contracts. Politics as usual with a little antiamericanism sauce.

A common factor in almost all Brazilian corruption scandals is that somehow the media gets access to "secret" telephone conversations: the country is already bugged (legally sometimes) by the Federal Police and (always illegally) by the Brazilian Intelligence Agency. It's not uncommon for the administration to leak data from legal and illegal bugs to pursue adversaries. It's scarily common and rarely protested by the general populace.

It disgusts me.

Re:Efficacy? (1)

Arker (91948) | about a year ago | (#44888571)

By the time this is done those agreements may well be dust.

Irony (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44887983)

They're just pissed they don't have their own NSA.

I'd absolutely love to see how they plan on making this work.

The US is never giving up control of the internet. The whole point was to secretly get it in everywhere so we could spy on everyone.

Re: Irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888409)

Who is this really... Al Gore?

please o please, (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44887989)

fuck up pings for brazillians playing mmorpgs on u.s. servers.

signed.

the american gamer.

Re:please o please, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888111)

hue

Benders view (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44887997)

I'll build my own internet! With blackjack! And hookers!

Re:Benders view (1)

sponse (1468283) | about a year ago | (#44888235)

And now is when I don't have mod points !
Could someone upvote the parent post?

I Dislike The Gatekeeper As Well But... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888007)

Even if this is done with genuinely good intentions this will only make it easier to keep their citizens from information with whatever rationales they want.

Happening everywhere on all levels (5, Insightful)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | about a year ago | (#44888071)

Our Global Suction strategy is blowing up in our face. We were perceived as an honest broker, now we're going to find our control increasingly challenged and marginalized. I've been reading more and more about everyone from individual users to companies to now nations basically giving us the finger. Any tactic we're employing with geopolitical repercussions that can be blown out of the water by one disgruntled contractor was woefully conceived.

I don't know what annoys me more; the dragnetting or the fact that they did such a crappy job of keeping it under wraps.

Re:Happening everywhere on all levels (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888223)

The dragnetting or the fact they did such a crappy job of keeping it under wraps.

A smart man covers his ass. A wise man keeps his pants on.

Re:Happening everywhere on all levels (5, Interesting)

Wolfling1 (1808594) | about a year ago | (#44888473)

+1
I'm astonished at the posts in this thread that have been modded up, but just don't get this point. This is about the only one I've seen so far that is truly insightful. The NSA's dragnetting is why we can't have good things. It will progressively push all other countries to legislate that information on their citizens must be hosted inside their borders. And Brazil's approach is the right one. They won't go after their citizens, or the big bad NSA. They'll just go after the businesses themselves. For companies like Google, this will be an inconvenience, but for any small company wanting to do international business on the internet, their options just evaporated. Here's hoping that they'll get some international law in place to declare the NSAs actions illegal - and some decent penalties applied at a 'per capita' rate.

Consolidate and fracture (3, Insightful)

steelfood (895457) | about a year ago | (#44888135)

Funny thing is, that's how the internet is supposed to be. The only things that are common are the protocols used to communicate between networks. The idea that everything should be consolidated into one system is not in the spirit of the internet. It is the centralized systems that are ripe for abuse by large organizations. As an aside, terrorists operate in cells rather than with a strong command hierarchy for the same reason.

Now, if the Brazilians can design their own microprocessors and switch to a flavor of Linux, they might have a shot at being secure.

Re:Consolidate and fracture (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888487)

"The idea that everything should be consolidated into one system is not in the spirit of the internet."

It is actually the spirit of the internet, since the people are it's spirit and they use predominantly windows and centralized services. Look at any website rankings and google, banks, commerce sites like amazon is at the top of it. Why? Geometric and mathematical efficiency. In the real world the free market can't really exist because you're actually wasting energy trying to create institutional structures that waste peoples time and energy (i.e. multiple competing businesses, energy expended comparing prices, etc, etc. People tend to form habits (energy efficiency) and stick with one thing when it reaches 'good enough'.

Re:Consolidate and fracture (3, Informative)

Stormwatch (703920) | about a year ago | (#44888619)

Dunno about the chips, but the government has been pushing for free software for over a decade now. Personal anecdote: I worked a temp job in a public organization, and all the machines there ran Ubuntu, except for one with Windows XP (no idea why), and a support guy brought his own Macbook.

Do it! (0, Troll)

onyxruby (118189) | about a year ago | (#44888137)

Do it, do it! While your at it make sure you do the same thing for every other country that spies on other countries on the Internet. Don't forget about countries ranging from France to China to Russia and the vast majority that I haven't named. Take your righteous indignation with you, close your borders and don't forget to ask North Korea how being isolated from almost the entire country is is working out. Dead Dear Leader while be very impressed by his converts on the other side of the world that have taken his lessons about self reliance in stride.

I'm sure Iran can give you pointers about having your own country specific version of the Internet (what do you call that - CAN / Country Area Network?)

Meanwhile the rest of the world that hasn't quite gotten around to ordering tinfoil hats by the pallet is realizing that security actually is an issue and that you can't treat it as an afterthought. Instead people are having a wake up call and starting to realize that security has to be designed into things from the beginning, used throughout the /entire/ process and that you have to stop thinking your going to secure your environment by installing a firewall and the latest antivirus suite.

You have two choices, keep playing the NSA boogeyman card whilst everyone else robs you blind, or get your act together and start doing what you should have been doing to begin with. Blaming the worlds computer security problems on the NSA is a bit like blaming Top Gear for death of old Morris Marina's. There really aren't that many flying pianos and pretty soon you've got to realize that's a lot more to the picture.

Re:Do it! (1)

PhxBlue (562201) | about a year ago | (#44888225)

You have two choices, keep playing the NSA boogeyman card whilst everyone else robs you blind, or get your act together and start doing what you should have been doing to begin with. Blaming the worlds computer security problems on the NSA is a bit like blaming Top Gear for death of old Morris Marina's.

If you're not welcome on the premises, it's still trespassing, whether the door is locked or not.

Re:Do it! (2)

onyxruby (118189) | about a year ago | (#44888349)

Your missing the bloody point. In the zealous desire to make the NSA the world's boogeyman on all things related to computer security the world is forgetting all of the other security issues that is had /before/ the NSA boogeyman.

People are also naively assuming that the NSA is the only agency to go around spying on other countries like that. It only takes a quick google search to reveal spy agencies from just about every nation on earth. Since the Internet is arguably the cheapest and easiest way to gather information for people it is only natural that the same would be true for governments. People forget that governments spy on other governments because - that is their job.

Now you can either get piss and moan about it, or you can do something security in general. Let me explain things to you with your door locking example, it's a bit like putting up a sign banning Bob the burglar while forgetting that you live in a bad neighborhood with thousands of other burglars.

Re:Do it! (1)

LateArthurDent (1403947) | about a year ago | (#44888513)

If you're not welcome on the premises, it's still trespassing, whether the door is locked or not.

Under which criminal code? Trespassing only exists because there's a law in the books that define it. Now name the law book that nations have to abide.

Unless the US signed a treaty with Brazil that say they can't spy on them, it's fair game. I say this is a Brazilian.

Moranic response to story (1)

Uberbah (647458) | about a year ago | (#44888351)

They aren't talking about building their own gated AOL. RTFA.

While Brazil isnâ(TM)t proposing to bar its citizens from U.S.-based Web services, it wants their data to be stored locally as the nation assumes greater control over Braziliansâ(TM) Internet use to protect them from NSA snooping.

So mail.google.com.br should have its servers in Brazil and presumably be subjected to Brazilian oversight. That's not exactly 'turning into North Korea'.

Re:Moranic response to story (1)

onyxruby (118189) | about a year ago | (#44888389)

RTFA, they are also talking about running their own Fiber to Europe and elsewhere. Meanwhile they forget that European governments also heavily engage on spying on the Internet. You did RTFA, right?

Re:Moranic response to story (0)

Uberbah (647458) | about a year ago | (#44888535)

RTFA, they are also talking about running their own Fiber to Europe and elsewhere.

Which is also not turning into North Korea or walling themselves off from the rest of the world. Any other ways you want to highlight the fact that your post was nothing more than a knee-jerk response?

Re:Do it! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888405)

They're talking about not relying on US infrastructure.
Security means absolutely nothing if you're using the systems of someone who has to obey a secret order to hand your data over.

Re:Do it! (1)

onyxruby (118189) | about a year ago | (#44888481)

Yes, and that means connecting to other countries infrastructure in the naive assumption that those other countries don't do the same things the US does. Thus the point on North Korea as if you rule out all of the other countries that spy there is no one left to connect to but themselves. Your not really naive enough to think that countries other than the US don't spy, are you?

Alternate headline... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888143)

Brazil cuts itself off from the rest of the internet... Portuguese speaking citizenry doesn't seem to notice much. Rest of the internet says; meh.

May I be the first to suggest ipv6? (4, Insightful)

mark-t (151149) | about a year ago | (#44888175)

Because if current rates of adoption are any indication, an ipv6 internet won't be US-centric for years to come.

Re:May I be the first to suggest ipv6? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888465)

Mostly we have lowercase-at&t to blame for that. And before that, BellSouth.

SBC (formerly Southwestern Bell) was talking about IPv6 to all their (at the time, well-supported) DSL customers in 2005. Then they "merged" with BellSouth (read: got bought out with their own money by BellSouth) and the whole mess was rebranded as lowercase-at&t. At that moment, all customer support, expansion planning, and any semblance of decent service went out the window. As I recall, BellSouth had a pretty shitty track record before that, too. It seems that lowercase-at&t is just a larger BellSouth.

If I could've opted out of it, I would have. I also would have had an IPv6-capable DSL (and by now, probably FTTP) connection.

This is just showmanship, pantomime.. yawn (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888211)

The Brazilian government was likely a customer of the NSA. This current pantomime is to divert attention from the likely situation.

Brazil's formerly richest man Eike Batista (was $36.4B, now $0.4B) poached a top team of petroleum executives from the state oil company PetroBras. This included their top negotiator who would have had the most sensitive data regarding price points for access to new fields. Having a competitor to the state oil company was an affront to the establishment. The government wanted to know who was taking to Batista, and what information was being supplied.

They'll kick up a stink, make some gestures, but the dramatic fall from grace by Batista was no accident. The authorities have been tightening the vice on him for some time.

Essentially, its one corrupt group in conflict with another, while try to maintain public support.

Re:This is just showmanship, pantomime.. yawn (1)

rsborg (111459) | about a year ago | (#44888271)

Essentially, its one corrupt group in conflict with another, while try to maintain public support.

And how is this different from when our mega corps compete with each other and try to cut off each other's air supply - by lowering prices or making certain things free?

I can't see anything bad coming out of this. I hope more countries do this such that the cost to monitor all packets becomes too expensive for the NSA. Then we might have a more free Internet.

tl;dr - the balkanization of spying is a good thing for Internet users.

Re:This is just showmanship, pantomime.. yawn (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888319)

Yes I agree, to balkanise spying would be a boon, but my point is that this is just hot air, nothing will come of it. They'd rather outsource.

Just some Randian butthurt thrown in. (1)

Uberbah (647458) | about a year ago | (#44888421)

Brazil's formerly richest man Eike Batista (was $36.4B, now $0.4B) poached a top team of petroleum executives from the state oil company PetroBras. This included their top negotiator who would have had the most sensitive data regarding price points for access to new fields. Having a competitor to the state oil company was an affront to the establishment. The government wanted to know who was taking to Batista, and what information was being supplied.

Oh noes!!! Wont someone please think of the billionaire oligarchs who want to privatize national resources so they can cut wages, increase prices and ignore safety and environmental concerns! Let's start a kickstarter campaign for the poor beleaguered billionaire that has more influence than a million registered voters!!!

The rest of the post isn't so bad. Obama fell all over himself during his campaign to assure voters that he would reign in abusing spying, only to massively expand it once he because president. The Brazilian government might be just as full of it here - a little fauxrage to make the homefront happy with zero follow-through.

Cut off the US and UK from the Internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888251)

It's not like they didn't deserve it. They haven't even come down harshly on their NSA and GCHQ!

Brazilian IT industry stimulus (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888279)

This is just the latest article regarding Brazil's attempts to start its tech industry. This time it just happens to have some geopolitical cover.

I called it... (4, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | about a year ago | (#44888285)

Trust in anything connected with the US is done. Other governments and other people are VERY aware of what the US influence has been doing. They are also very aware that Brazil's financial systems didn't crash because they didn't do what the rest of the world did. A lot of things aren't being talked about but the leaders know what's what but they don't know how to escape the net which the powers behind the US have put over everyone else. BRIC will make the changes the rest of the world will be inclined to follow.

I never thought there would be a year of Linux on the desktop, but something like it is becoming more and more possible in other nations.

Things are changing and they're going to change a lot more before it's done.

Good (3, Insightful)

wjcofkc (964165) | about a year ago | (#44888293)

Our government deserves to get slapped in the face at every turn by every other country over the heavy handed and far overreaching actions of the NSA. I hope the condemnations with actions keep rolling in.

Thanks again Snowden. You woke up the world and it's changing for the better because of you.

Dear Facebook.... (3, Insightful)

freeze128 (544774) | about a year ago | (#44888337)

BRAZIL: Dear Facebook, please store your data about our citizens on a server that is located in our Country.

Facebook: No.

BRAZIL: Well, then we will just prevent all our citizens from accessing your website...

Facebook: Darn.

Re:Dear Facebook.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888577)

Pretty sure it will go the other way.

BRAZIL: Dear Facebook, please store your data about our citizens on a server that is located in our Country.
Facebook: No.
BRAZIL: Well, then we will just prevent all our citizens from accessing your website...
Facebook: No.
BRAZIL then Gives in or cut off Facebook. Then people in brazil get upset, and there are electoral ramifications.

Re:Dear Facebook.... (4, Informative)

Uberbah (647458) | about a year ago | (#44888669)

Right. Just like how every time Google has been threatened with having local regulations applied to them in France or Germany or what have you, the for-profit corporation writes off the countries involved and pulls up shop.

Unless they, you know, cave. Which is pretty much every time.

A cable to Europe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#44888397)

...laying its own fiber optic cable to Europe...

Good luck with that. Wherever it makes landfall, the local intelligence service will be happy to take a feed and pass it to NSA.

Quid pro quo...

When will extradictions begin? (1)

X.25 (255792) | about a year ago | (#44888565)

Considering how US asks for extradiction of people who were hacking US networks, are they gonna extradite NSA employees that have broken countless laws and hacked networks in many other countries?

I mean, will people be able to not start manically laughing next time USA asks for someone to be extradited because he/she broke some US law and/or hacked some US system(s)?

I know I'll be rolling on the floor.

People still don't see what's wrong (1)

X.25 (255792) | about a year ago | (#44888611)

What really amazes me is how many people boldy say "I am ok with NSA spying", yet somehow they completely ignore that NSA personnel is breaking local and foreign laws.

Breaking into corporate/private networks and stealing sensitive data, which is a heavy crime in almost every 'modern' country. Crime for which US pressures other countries, to extradite their own citizens. To extradite them to the country that is the biggest cyber criminal in the world. Ooooh, the irony.

Are you really ok with that?

Brazil: take Snowden (1)

DrEasy (559739) | about a year ago | (#44888631)

If Brazil wants to flex it muscles with respect to defending privacy, it should give political asylum to Snowden. Now that will send a message. It's crazy how no supposedly democratic country has stepped up yet.

Symptom (1)

gmuslera (3436) | about a year ago | (#44888703)

Is amazing how much people focus in Brazil the blame, suspect of spying, or ulterior motives, and forget that they are just a symptom, and that more should follow example. But the disease, the one that should take all the blame, is barely named, and even justified when so. Put attention on the original action, not on the reactions thar will keep coming from the rest of the world.
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