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Ubuntu 13.10 Will Not Ship Mir By Default

Unknown Lamer posted about a year ago | from the remember-when-ubuntu-switched-to-wayland dept.

Ubuntu 165

An anonymous reader writes "Ubuntu 13.10 is due for release later this month, and the Ubuntu developers were planning to replace the native X Server with Mir/XMir as Canonical's next-generation Ubuntu display server. However, they have now decided Mir will not be the Ubuntu 13.10 default on the desktop over the XMir X11 compatibility layer suffering multi-monitor issues and other problems. Canonical still says they will use Mir for Ubuntu Touch 13.10 images and remain committed to the Mir project."

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There's hope yet (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about a year ago | (#45012743)

If they continue to have problems perhaps they will go back to the idea of supporting the Wayland project. There's hope for Ubuntu Gnome [ubuntugnome.org] yet.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45012759)

You specified Ubuntu GNOME, yet the article was about Ubuntu in particular. Despite Ubuntu GNOME being Ubuntu based, I had expected that if anything, they would be supporting Wayland. Did the Ubuntu GNOME group express any sort of interest in Mir?

Re:There's hope yet (4, Informative)

Chrisq (894406) | about a year ago | (#45012829)

You specified Ubuntu GNOME, yet the article was about Ubuntu in particular. Despite Ubuntu GNOME being Ubuntu based, I had expected that if anything, they would be supporting Wayland. Did the Ubuntu GNOME group express any sort of interest in Mir?

No the point is that when Ubuntu switches to Mir, Ubuntu gnome will have to replace the whole graphics server and compositor rather than just teh display manager, amd to get advantage of Weyland use Weyland-enabled apps. It probaby won't be worth doing - the resulting system would be so different that you may as well have your own debian based distribution as making a variant of Ubuntu.

Re:There's hope yet (3, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45012997)

They should do that then.

Something will need to replace ubuntu soon as the easy to use grandma friendly linux desktop. They are hell bent on killing that distribution.

Chromebook (0)

tepples (727027) | about a year ago | (#45013807)

Something will need to replace ubuntu soon as the easy to use grandma friendly linux desktop

Would Chromium OS qualify as "the easy to use grandma friendly linux desktop"?

(Before we can identify this "something", we first need to identify what qualifies as a "Linux desktop". Otherwise, we're likely to end up talking past each other [c2.com] .)

Re:Chromebook (0)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45013871)

I think so. I think Chrome OS will be used for that. Mostly because it is sold in stores.

Re:Chromebook (0)

madcat_sun (2812213) | about a year ago | (#45014649)

Chrome OS/Chromium OS is a Linux-based operating system designed by Google to work exclusively with web applications. Its way different than the easy to use grandma friendly linux desktop. Not everyone only needs to surf the net or check their mail,f,y,t* account . Perhaps Mint is more suited to this. PD. I dont support mir

Re:There's hope yet (1)

RazorSharp (1418697) | about a year ago | (#45014533)

Wouldn't Mint be what you're talking about? It's already more grandma-friendly than Ubuntu. Or does it not count since it's based on Ubuntu?

Re: There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45015009)

Something did. It's called Mint.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013605)

This whole discussion is a perfect example of why linux will never be a common desktop OS.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

HaZardman27 (1521119) | about a year ago | (#45013923)

You're right, because there are no technical details about Windows or OS X, and there is likely never any discussion amongst the developers of those operating systems about the use or inclusion of various software packages in the operating system.

The only difference here is that a Linux user has access to this information. Most Mac users don't know anything about the Mach BSD kernel or the Quartz compositor, but it doesn't stop them from using the system.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

Teun (17872) | about a year ago | (#45014829)

Why does a discussion about a single distro with unusual ideas about the DE have anything to do with the general health of Linux?

Re:There's hope yet (4, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45012805)

Or maybe they can stick with X and replace unity with XFCE.

XFCE don't fuck it up, all you have to do is stay yourself.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45012831)

However, they have now decided Mir will not be the Ubuntu 13.10 default on the desktop over the XMir X11 compatibility layer suffering multi-monitor issues and other problems.

Other problems like NOBODY FUCKING WANTS IT. If I wanted shit I never asked for shoved down my throat I'd use Windows or an Apple product.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

LoRdTAW (99712) | about a year ago | (#45013001)

Just use Xubuntu then. Since ubuntu 11.something I have liked the interface less and less. Then that unity/gnome 3.0 mess came about and I switched to XFCE until Mate brought back the good ol days of Gnome 2.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

ottothecow (600101) | about a year ago | (#45015007)

Yeah, I switched to Xubuntu a while ago and haven't looked back. Part of it was that my 10" eeepc (my only computer running linux) just couldn't deal anymore with the bloat, but I also didn't like the non-bloaty changes.

Next step was going to be the xfce flavor of mint...but Xubuntu has been working just fine so I have had no reason to switch. I don't think I am set up on a LTS release, so I might make the switch to mint when the updates stop. The computer is getting pretty long in the tooth though... Bought a new battery and switched to an SSD a while ago which sped it up enough to keep using when I eat breakfast, but websites are getting so filled with javascript that it really struggles. Used to be able to avoid the bloat with flashblock and an ad blocker...but now it's all javascript and html5 junk that I can't turn off without destroying the page functionality. I don't think people realize how much overhead some of those tiebacks to facebook/twitter/etc (for tracking/commenting features) add to their site.

Re:There's hope yet (4, Interesting)

jones_supa (887896) | about a year ago | (#45013003)

Or maybe they can stick with X and replace unity with XFCE.

XFCE don't fuck it up, all you have to do is stay yourself.

A big thumb up for XFCE from me. It runs fast, is relatively bug-free, and has plenty of configurability. However a little tweak which I like to do is turn off the default compositor and replace it with Compton. It is slick, does not suffer from tearing problems, and offers some extra eye candy with fade in/out and shadow effects.

This kind of setup runs as fast as Windows, which is very fast these days. However on that Linux setup you will also get lower memory consumption, I was hovering around 150MB when in an empty desktop. A Windows desktop grabs about 500MB (you can crank that slightly down by disabling some services, but it is usually not worth the effort).

Re:There's hope yet (1)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | about a year ago | (#45013717)

I've switched to XFCE as well. Absolutely no problems. I was up and running at my original Gnome2 spped with half an hour. My only issues thus far have been with 13.04. A lot of the XFCE applets stopped working (as they were actually wrapped Gnome 2 applets), and there were themeing issues.

Personally, I don't care what Ubuntu do anymore. I've spent the last 4 upgrades fixing things they break for no reason and getting rid of horrible UI redesigns. I'm not waiting to see what they've broken in XFCE this time around. I'm moving to Mint on the next upgrade.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

sensei moreh (868829) | about a year ago | (#45013855)

Compton also works nicely with Lubuntu and the Fedora LXDE spin

Re:There's hope yet (3, Insightful)

Teun (17872) | about a year ago | (#45014869)

(First find your bike) and then you should give KDE a go.

Low on memory, totally configurable, really nice well integrated applications and an interface many people will understand right away.
As a bonus it has excellent support and future planning.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about a year ago | (#45015011)

Also, the Qt toolkit is excellent.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013019)

and forever live in the past and make no progress?

Re:There's hope yet (3, Insightful)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45013299)

Not everything newer is progress. Being able to only use one window at a time is not progress.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

Lunix Nutcase (1092239) | about a year ago | (#45013389)

What progress does Unity actually bring? New does not mean better.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

wjcofkc (964165) | about a year ago | (#45013885)

While I agree XFCE is is pretty wonderful, I have been using Gnome 3.10 for awhile and it really is pretty incredible and very stable. I think it would make for a more appealing modern desktop experience. Past that, TWM would be an improvement over unity.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45013925)

I can find a single appealing modern desktop.

Samsung reinvented tiling windows for android! In 2013 they are selling this as a big new feature!

Re:There's hope yet (5, Insightful)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | about a year ago | (#45012819)

Gentoo user here, just to side-step any Ubuntu fanboy responses.

Why are two competing display server stacks considered a problem in this case?

Over the years we've had countless situations like this
The various desktop environments, package management systems, initialisation systems, boot loaders, audio stacks, etc. etc.

Often seen as the benefit of open-source software.
The ability for multiple software components to exist that fulfil the same function. May the best man win.

Innovation and progress comes from each project trying to out-do it's rivals.

Often these competing solutions have a single distro or company behind them, driving development forward.

Why is Ubuntu's new display server, competing against X.org and Wayland any different?

Re:There's hope yet (3, Insightful)

somersault (912633) | about a year ago | (#45013007)

Because fanboys.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

X0563511 (793323) | about a year ago | (#45013119)

Because the userbase for Ubuntu is quite huge comparatively, and Ubuntu seems to like doing shit like this "just because" without any reasoning grounded in fact or reality.

Re:There's hope yet (4, Insightful)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | about a year ago | (#45013181)

Because the userbase for Ubuntu is quite huge comparatively, and Ubuntu seems to like doing shit like this "just because" without any reasoning grounded in fact or reality.

Sorry, I don't understand the comment.
Isn't Doing shit, "just because" a fundamental part of OSS software development?
Do you want to remove the "scratch your own itch" element?

Quick google says that Mir is GPL V3
What exactly is the issue here?
I'm missing something...

Re:There's hope yet (0)

rvw (755107) | about a year ago | (#45013357)

Because the userbase for Ubuntu is quite huge comparatively, and Ubuntu seems to like doing shit like this "just because" without any reasoning grounded in fact or reality.

Sorry, I don't understand the comment.
Isn't Doing shit, "just because" a fundamental part of OSS software development?
Do you want to remove the "scratch your own itch" element?

Quick google says that Mir is GPL V3
What exactly is the issue here?
I'm missing something...

You're probably missing the fact that most Ubuntu users are not able to change their desktop environment without extensive help. They are stuck to Unity, to Mir, or whatever Canonical brings up. Ubuntu is meant for these users. The only problem is that most prefer Gnome 2 to Unity or Gnome 3. And now it seems to get more complicated with Mir if I understand correctly.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013929)

Because the userbase for Ubuntu is quite huge comparatively, and Ubuntu seems to like doing shit like this "just because" without any reasoning grounded in fact or reality.

Sorry, I don't understand the comment.
Isn't Doing shit, "just because" a fundamental part of OSS software development?
Do you want to remove the "scratch your own itch" element?

Quick google says that Mir is GPL V3
What exactly is the issue here?
I'm missing something...

You're probably missing the fact that most Ubuntu users are not able to change their desktop environment without extensive help. They are stuck to Unity, to Mir, or whatever Canonical brings up. Ubuntu is meant for these users. The only problem is that most prefer Gnome 2 to Unity or Gnome 3. And now it seems to get more complicated with Mir if I understand correctly.

Nah. You can change you window manager to whatever you want, easy. E17 probably being best of the lightweight bunch.
Mir,Wayland, whatever_thing_comes_next is meant to replace X server - that has nothing to do with window manager.
And an idea to have all those "mobile touch" features is just a temporary fascination with the medium.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

X0563511 (793323) | about a year ago | (#45014227)

... and a new user is supposed to know what all of this even is, let alone how to install them? Then, once it's installed, they are supposed to realize that "session" actually means "environment" or more newbie-likely "theme" on the login screen?

(the use of "session" for this is completely braindead IMO, I don't understand how your desktop manager has anything to do with the concept of a session)

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014991)

The best part of trying to change your desktop environment on Ubuntu is how it then tries to uninstall your entire operating system. busybox, the linux kernel, and everything else.

The only sane way to install a different DE with Ubunut is by installing Kubuntu, Xubuntu, or one of the other derivatives.

There is a reason why I switched to Gentoo, then eventually Arch. I want to get actual work done.

Zakkudo

Re:There's hope yet (1)

binarylarry (1338699) | about a year ago | (#45013361)

What he's saying is "WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE SHAREHOLDERS?!"

fuck fuck fuck the slashfilter

Re:There's hope yet (4, Insightful)

MBGMorden (803437) | about a year ago | (#45013433)

Quick google says that Mir is GPL V3
What exactly is the issue here?
I'm missing something...

I think the main reason comes down to binary drivers. Neither Nvidia nor ATI have ever released enough specs for a fully capable (ie, respectable 3d support, hardware video decoding, etc) OSS driver to be written. If you actually want to use your video card to its potential you have to use binary drivers.

Having two competing display servers makes the environment more varied and makes the video card makers less likely to support either (whereas a single option would be more likely to be supported).

That said, the hardware companies seem to be fairly committed to Wayland over Mir, so I'm guessing that eventually thats what will eventually end up on top.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013757)

Actually no, as Wayland and Mir could use the same hooks for binary drivers. That is one of Ubuntu's goals.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

Ynot_82 (1023749) | about a year ago | (#45013859)

I think the main reason comes down to binary drivers

Ok, this is at least a valid reason.

I do find it very odd, to say the least, that Canonical is being criticised though.
The criticism should be levelled at the hardware vendors who won't provide open drivers.

I just find it an odd state of affairs when a non-copyleft project (Wayland) is favoured over a copyleft project (Mir) because of proprietary drivers.

Why are we limiting ourselves because of proprietary drivers?
It's all backward.

Anyway...

Re:There's hope yet (1)

ifiwereasculptor (1870574) | about a year ago | (#45014363)

Actually, Ubuntu's Mir uses Android drivers, doesn't it? Ubuntu having been so focused in mobile and Adreno 3xx GPUs being quite able to render 1080p graphics (I'd love to see a comparison between Adreno 3xx and Intel 3xxx, BTW, to have an idea of where mobile GPUs stand in terms of performance), I can see why they'd go that route, to avoid the trap of ending up with good software but no hardware backers nor drivers. And, as shitty as Unity is for the desktop, it seems to work well on phones.

Re:There's hope yet (2)

wertigon (1204486) | about a year ago | (#45013183)

It's good as long as they use a common interface.

KDE, Gnome, XFCE and Unity all use the X display server right now.

However, with this move, some of those will use Wayland, some will use MIR, and some will be able to use both.

As long as the parts are interchangable - great. But as soon as interfaces change, it's generally bad.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

Kjella (173770) | about a year ago | (#45013213)

Competition is great where you can run multiple choices in parallel, it's not so great when you can only pick one. I don't know who the heck considers the ALSA/OSS/aRts/PulseAudio/JACK FUBAR a benefit of open source, I see that more as a bad case of not invented here, reinventing the wheel and lack of cooperation, my gold standard for things like that is Linux the kernel which has kept it all together and still makes great progress. The display server is another one of those mutually exclusive choices, it's not like apps that you can run side by side. Progress is fine, but I think everyone here has tasted the bitterness when choices are taken away. The "old" way, the way you wanted to work, the way you actually liked much better than the new way? Gone. No configurability, no classic interface, can't fix, won't fix, not supported, in short suck it up and like it.

It's a great fallacy to think that people want competition on things that are largely invisible when they do work and a huge PITA when they don't work. When I plug in my speakers or headphones I want sound, when I turn on my Bluetooth keyboard I want it to work, when I turn on wifi I want it to connect and so on and it is not a matter of preference such as with GUIs, it's largely obvious what is meant with working and broken, stable and unstable. I need one stack with a dilligent management that keeps the quality high and integrates the work the community does, warring factions doesn't benefit anyone unless it's a revolt and reformation under new management like xfree86/x.org. I'm glad there's one dominant X implementation and not many.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013233)

Because Ubuntu is becoming increasingly more like Apple. While their basis is in open-source software, they are developing more proprietary or closed-off software. Their server suite, the part that makes the server configurable and, well, useful, is closed source and available for use for a price. Unity is a good exmaple of Canonical breaking away and saying "screw you guys, I'm going to do my own thing and not share/collaborate." Mir, while I agree is good to give X and Wayland competition, is another example of Canonical breaking away to do their own thing and the general impression is they are starting to become a leach and not give back to the open source community. It may or may not be true, but it's the impression they give.

Re:There's hope yet (2)

jedidiah (1196) | about a year ago | (#45013401)

> Why are two competing display server stacks considered a problem in this case?

Device drivers. The display server isn't just another piece of user level software. It drives one of the key bits of hardware in the entire system.

It can quite literally mean the difference between a machine being very respectable or being a doorstop.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

loonycyborg (1262242) | about a year ago | (#45013653)

Why is Ubuntu's new display server, competing against X.org and Wayland any different?

Because Mir is utterly redundant given existance of wayland. Also, contributing to Mir requires you to surrender your copyright to Canonical, something many contributors won't agree to. So it must be forked before it can become proper community project. And nobody will fork it because it's redundant.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014067)

Because Mir is utterly redundant given existance of wayland.

Please explain what will give Wayland competition, if Mir is utterly redundant.

You know, competition, what we love in the open source world. Linux vs BSD, Gnome vs KDE, XFCE vs LXDE...

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014153)

Why are two competing display server stacks considered a problem in this case?

Because Ubuntu removed the previous desktop environments and stopped supporting them due to abandoning a display server in favour of their in-house stack.

These display servers are only competing if you account for other distros. With Ubuntu, they are being forced onto their users, and users don't like it. I'm one of those users. I've been a faithful Ubuntu user since the 5.04 days and these decisions by Canonical lead me to decide that the 12.04 LTE release curently installed on my desktops and laptos is my last Ubuntu. Debian doesn't pull this crap, so I won't take it anymore.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014171)

Why is Ubuntu's new display server, competing against X.org and Wayland any different?

Because one of them is "native" and the other isn't. (See summary.) How that is even possible on a system where everything is a package like any other package, don't ask me. But there it is.

Me, I'm currently using a dual-headed Xorg-with-xinerama set up and suffer from a bug (vanishing mouse clicks) that's been known for at least seven years but nobody saw fit to fix. Too busy with the newfangled stuff, I guess.

Re:There's hope yet (1, Interesting)

squiggleslash (241428) | about a year ago | (#45012835)

I'd rather they stick with X.

Yeah, yeah, cue all the "X11 is crufty and nobody needs all those awesome features it has". Sure. Right. One question: what do you think Wayland and Mir will look like in five years, especially if you're leaving out highly desirable features from day one?

Re:There's hope yet (5, Funny)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about a year ago | (#45012893)

One question: what do you think Wayland and Mir will look like in five years, especially if you're leaving out highly desirable features from day one?

Dude seriously. The latency of X is killing me. Have you seen, the signals have to make 4 extra IPC calls before they're seen by the application. By my count that adds at least 40ms of latency.

Oh hang on a mo.

Looks like the turbo button isn't pressed and my 386 SX/25 was only running at 4MHz.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

fnj (64210) | about a year ago | (#45012921)

Brilliant! Compact and telling. Mod up.

Re:There's hope yet (4, Interesting)

DrXym (126579) | about a year ago | (#45013231)

Yeah, yeah, cue all the "X11 is crufty and nobody needs all those awesome features it has". Sure. Right. One question: what do you think Wayland and Mir will look like in five years, especially if you're leaving out highly desirable features from day one?

The problem is that X11 doesn't have "awesome features". It has a critical path which acts as a bottleneck and a bunch of crap that nobody uses any more. And increasingly it has a bunch of extensions trying to work around the framework's deficiencies which reside in their own processes and increase the render and network latency.

So whatever form Wayland takes the chances are it'll be a damned sight more maintainable than X11.

Re:There's hope yet (4, Insightful)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about a year ago | (#45013381)

It has a critical path which acts as a bottleneck

Bottleneck to what? High performance rendering has been in the X server for ages now. It gets a direct path to the GPU when such a thing exists.

and a bunch of crap that nobody uses any more.

My god the horror. That old line drawing code from the 80's. Sitting all alone, stable and debugged in some source file somewhere. And paged out on disk taking up no resources if it's really not being used.

And increasingly it has a bunch of extensions trying to work around the framework's deficiencies

It's amazing, really. In any other system updating the API to have new features is considered a good thing. The bias against X is so strong that even this is taken as a negative.

which reside in their own processes and increase the render and network latency.

WTF? The extensions are part of the X server and reside in the X server. If you're talking about the input latency to the compositor then you're full of crap. The IPC latency on a 10 year old Linux desktop is down in the microseconds. You won't notice the 4 extra IPC calls.

So whatever form Wayland takes the chances are it'll be a damned sight more maintainable than X11.

Maybe. But the thing is which I find mildly disturbing is that while X11 has many, many defincies, the Wayland folks seem to enjoy making up straw men and picking on things which are easily refutable.

As I pointed out here and in another post, the latency thing is one of the big lies they keep propagating. Yes it exists, but it is so small that it is negligable. So not a lie, more a half truth which is far more dangerous since it's as deceptive but harder to refute.

If Wayland is better, it should be better on its merits.

Re:There's hope yet (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013875)

How mad are you that Valve, like Google and Android, evaluated X and dropped it from SteamOS? You're a lowly system admin and you're living in denial and arguing with people that are your superiors in absolutely every respect.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014875)

And yet,his points are infinitely more valid than those of an arrogant, syncopated moron without a single technical argument, like yourself.

Re:There's hope yet (3, Insightful)

pak9rabid (1011935) | about a year ago | (#45014173)

Maybe. But the thing is which I find mildly disturbing is that while X11 has many, many defincies, the Wayland folks seem to enjoy making up straw men and picking on things which are easily refutable.

You do realize that "the Wayland folks" and the X11 folks are the same folks, right? Perhaps you should give this a watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44 [youtube.com]

Re:There's hope yet (1)

Patch86 (1465427) | about a year ago | (#45014663)

The Wayland folks were the X11 folks. X11 doesn't have any folks anymore.

With a cynic's hat on, Wayland is the new pet project of the guys who used to do X11, and they'll move heaven and earth (including smearing X11) to get people to adopt their shiny new product. It is against their interests for anyone to claim that X11 doesn't need wholesale replacing, or that the replacement should look different to how Wayland looks.

(With the cynic's hat removed- I honestly don't have an opinion. I'm not close enough to Wayland or Mir, nor a powerful-enough X11 power user to really care one way or the other).

Canonical claim that Wayland isn't well suited to their view of device interoperability (a view which is fairly unique to them- none of the other distros/DEs are going in the same directions). No idea if that's true (say what you like about Canonical, they've never been prone to telling outright porkies, especially when the code is open for all to see), but if it is- why shouldn't they roll their own? That's what OSS is all about, after all. No reason they should compromise on functionality just so they can support someone else's pet project, if they've got the resources to do otherwise.

And if you or I don't like it, there's always Mint/Debian/Fedora/whatever. Again, that's the beauty of Linux.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | about a year ago | (#45014265)

X's deficiencies are in its architecture rather than any noticeable performance issues. In many ways its similar to the whole pulse audio thing. The code is going to be much better, provide better capabilities, and introduce a bunch of annoying bugs and other issues along the way.

Re:There's hope yet (4, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | about a year ago | (#45014371)

My god the horror. That old line drawing code from the 80's. Sitting all alone, stable and debugged in some source file somewhere. And paged out on disk taking up no resources if it's really not being used.

Yes the horror. It's junk which must be maintained and tested and impedes development of new functionality.

Maybe. But the thing is which I find mildly disturbing is that while X11 has many, many defincies, the Wayland folks seem to enjoy making up straw men and picking on things which are easily refutable.

They're not straw men and you didn't refute them so much as pretended that the brokenness didn't matter. Many of the people supporting Wayland are former X11 developers fed up with having to work around broken design. There are some good technical articles describing what is wrong with X11 such as this one [phoronix.com] .

Re:There's hope yet (2)

MtHuurne (602934) | about a year ago | (#45013235)

Which highly desirable features are you referring to?

In case you meant network transparency, X11 doesn't have that anymore either. Sure, you can run xterm remotely with decent performance, but as soon as you start using client-rendered fonts (the only way to get anti-aliasing), gradients or lots of images, performance of X11 becomes so slow that the networking can no longer be considered "transparent". Overall you'll probably get better performance from VNC than from X11.

You're wrong, at least for my use-case (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013359)

As someone that uses X network transparancy all day long, every day, I have to say I don't have this problem. I've yet to see any latency issues at all, other than when I connect to a server that is half a planet away from me.

I do use a lot of graphics in my programs. But, that is mostly "business like" graphics, not "holiday pictures" type of stuff.

Seriously, I hear a lot of complaints about X, but I really don't see the problem. Been using it since the early Pleistocene and have been happy ever since.

Re:You're wrong, at least for my use-case (1)

MtHuurne (602934) | about a year ago | (#45013921)

Some years ago I tried using KDE3 from a machine on the same floor, using Exceed and a win32 build of Xorg as the X servers. If I disabled rounded window corners and picked a theme without gradients, it was somewhat usable, but not as responsive as I'd like (this was my main dev box). I ended up switching to NX, which worked very well for me.

Re:There's hope yet (2, Interesting)

jedidiah (1196) | about a year ago | (#45013531)

You have no clue what you're talking about.

VNC is a joke. It can't even manage simple things across a LAN. On the other hand, X can handle media intensive applications under the same conditions.

X isn't designed well for the WAN but it's an easy enough problem to solve.

So X runs better across the Internet than VNC does across the LAN.

Regardless, the X approach to network transparency is now the norm rather than the exception. If you gut Linux in this regard you are putting it at a disadvantage and setting it back 20 years.

You've got to be very effective at insulating yourself from the world at large if you think otherwise.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013935)

Look, I know it's hard for you, but X is getting replaced whether you like it or not. Valve and Google both dropped it and the Xorg developers are all working on Wayland now. It's going to be rough, but we can talk you through the transition and with enough help I think we can stop you from killing yourself.

Re:There's hope yet (2)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about a year ago | (#45014255)

What's with you?

You come into all these threads claiming you do stuff and people keep telling you you don't. You need to start ignoring the flawed evidence of your eyes and accept the fact that X is bad.

Just accept it.

It will make the transition much easier.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014407)

X has been looked at objectively by Google, Apple, Valve, Canonical, Redhat and the original developers of X11 and they all came to the exact same conclusion. Sorry, but the opinions of random Linux zealots and system administrators on Slashdot doesn't hold much weight in comparison. Especially when their primary gripe is "hurr durr mah network transparency."

Re:There's hope yet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014935)

I have a feeling you're going to hate the new Slashdot site design (it's horrible)...

With Wayland, there will still be network transparency, but of a different kind. Where now the DEs use X to send bitmaps over the network (nobody uses the X primitives for this anymore), future implementations (on top of Wayland) will have the opportunity to communicate DE primitives and drawing instructions, similar to what RDP does already.

There will also still be traditional X servers that can be run on top of Wayland, to run existing traditional X applications.

In the short term things will undoubtedly break. Some things will never be the same. There will be some fragmentation. Other things will have a chance to get better: lower bandwidth, lower latency, higher resolutions, auto-reconnecting sessions, local font anti-aliasing... These things are easier to handle at a higher level (NX solves some of these, but that's also no longer standard X).

The drawback of course is that every DE will develop its own thing again, but with time some common libs will undoubtedly arise.

This thing has way too much momentum to be stopped anymore, so we might as well try to make the best of it. I'm sure that in 15 years or so the next generation will come and progress it again.

Re:There's hope yet (0)

deviated_prevert (1146403) | about a year ago | (#45014521)

Which highly desirable features are you referring to?

In case you meant network transparency, X11 doesn't have that anymore either. Sure, you can run xterm remotely with decent performance, but as soon as you start using client-rendered fonts (the only way to get anti-aliasing), gradients or lots of images, performance of X11 becomes so slow that the networking can no longer be considered "transparent". Overall you'll probably get better performance from VNC than from X11.

Harumpf WTF? My wife runs a citrix receiver on linux with an old radeon 7500 stock Xorg on an IBM T42 and guess what the rendering is just fine speed wise just as fast as the exact some rendering we get on the Win7 receiver in her study and in the case of network connection stability the Linux receiver client is BETTER HANDS DOWN.

The client is using X to render a remote desktop with anti-aliased fonts just fine. NO broken delayed image rendering either so how can you say that X is slow on the client side? Server rendering might be different but when I have logged into Citrix server running on a Red Hat the server to client worked even smoother and with nice clean fonts and images than running a client on Linux that was being fed from a Windows Server SO I CALL SHILL BASED BULLSHIT on this.

Re:There's hope yet (1)

atomicxblue (1077017) | about a year ago | (#45014031)

I'm more afraid of what the Linux certification books will look like by then. They might be 7 volumes, covering each distribution.

From the archives: LINUX FOR NIGGERS (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014497)

MARK SHUTTLEWORTH AND CANONICAL ANNOUNCE LINUX FOR NIGGERS

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

ISLE OF MAN - June 1, 2006 - At a press conference today, Canonical CEO and Free Software spokesnigger Mark Shuttleworth announced the immediate availability of version 6.06 of the Ubuntu Linux distribution. The latest version, known by its code name, "The Diaper Drake," includes special features designed to make Linux easier and more comfortable for niggers the world over.

"Niggers have always had trouble understanding new technology," Shuttleworth began. "Computers are no exception. Some people have said this is because niggers are dumb, but I believe the real problem is that technology has traditionally been designed for white people. Ubuntu changes all that. It was developed from the ground up with niggers in mind. It will usher in a whole new era of Afro-ergonomic computing."

Shuttleworth presented an overview of some of the features users could expect in the latest version of Ubuntu, including an Ebonics-to-English converter, African "tribal beats" sound and desktop theme, and a collection of rap music and gay pornography, "which of course will be encoded using patent and royalty-free formats," Shuttleworth added, smiling. He proceeded to elaborate, but OpenOffice.org Impress crashed at that point.

"But this release isn't just about new features," Shuttleworth said, making a quick segue to the humanitarian and ideological concept behind Ubuntu. "This new version brings black men closer together than ever in the spirit of Ubuntu." Shuttleworth then demonstrated the concept of Ubuntu by getting on his knees and sucking a young black boy's erect penis.

About Canonical

Canonical Ltd. is committed to the development,distribution and promotion of open source software products, and to providing tools and support to the open source community. Canonical is a global organization headquartered in the Isle of Man, with employees throughout Europe, North America, South America and Australia. Canonical is a technology partner of the Gay Nigger Association of America, of which it holds a 36% equity stake.

Christ... (4, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about a year ago | (#45012823)

Was it pure failure,or today's sick fascination with 'mobile' that would lead a 'modern-replacement-for-X' project to have "multi-monitor issues"?

I can be sympathetic to the weirdness sometimes experienced in that area with classic X, given that it's a hoary design from the age when 'multi-monitor' meant "Computer that costs more than everybody in front of it" bodged and genetic-drifted into a totally alien environment; but this is the future, the one where you are hard pressed to buy a motherboard without at least two built-in video outputs, not infrequently more, you'd think that that would be a major consideration in any new graphics system design.

Re:Christ... (2)

Chrisq (894406) | about a year ago | (#45012853)

Was it pure failure,or today's sick fascination with 'mobile' that would lead a 'modern-replacement-for-X' project to have "multi-monitor issues"?I

The thing is that Weyland is just as mobile friendly as Mir: The freedesktop site says [freedesktop.org] : "The Weston compositor is a minimal and fast compositor and is suitable for many embedded and mobile use cases".

Re:Christ... (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about a year ago | (#45012991)

There isn't anything necessarily incompatible with 'mobile' use and multi-monitor use (indeed, many contemporary mobile devices have both a screen and a video-out, and some of them can even treat them both independently, rather than the video-out being a fixed mirror of the screen); but, as a matter of priorities (not of actual technical conflicts) the fashion for 'mobile' seems to have led to some remarkably shoddy treatment of multi-monitor scenarios being allowed to ship on desktop/laptop OSes. Not just Ubuntu, either. The UI-formerly-known-as-'Metro' shipped supporting 'apps' only on the primary monitor (WTF, guys? You built explicit support for multiple-apps 'tiling'/'snapping' and didn't allow that behavior to be used across multiple monitors?) and Apple just slapped a grey background wallpaper across your second monitor if you fullscreened anything until either 10.7 or 10.8.

My point was not that the two are technologically incompatible in any way; but that a focus on 'What Would iPads Do?' design seems to be leading to solid support for additional displays, and coherent integration into the UI of that possibility, being ignored.

It's weird because all this is happening just as multiple output support is solidly moving down into even the cheapest and nastiest computers (we can't even buy boring Dell typingboxes with support for less than three heads at work these days) and monitors have never been cheaper....

Re:Christ... (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45013015)

Even in 10.7 you can't extend a single wallpaper across two monitors. You can cut to images from one larger picture yourself and make it look like one wallpaper, or have the same one twice. Both of which would be fine in 1999, but not in 2013.

Re:Christ... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about a year ago | (#45013397)

Good thing that OSX is Naturally Superior for photoshop-wielding 'creatives' so they can handle doing that manually.

And wasn't Apple the company with the reputation for delivering remotely-usable-by-people-who-are-neither-uber-geeks-nor-UNIX-workstation-buyers multi-monitor support atypically early in the game, somtime back in the classic era?

Re:Christ... (1)

tlhIngan (30335) | about a year ago | (#45014821)

Even in 10.7 you can't extend a single wallpaper across two monitors. You can cut to images from one larger picture yourself and make it look like one wallpaper, or have the same one twice. Both of which would be fine in 1999, but not in 2013.

You can't do it in Windows easily either - you have to stitch two wallpapers together in the right order for your monitor configuration. Of course, there are tools to do this, but that's what they do in the background. Though not all of them do it "right", especially when a monitor is to the left of the primary (which means that monitor gets "negative coordinates" as top-left of the primary is (0,0), so the left monitor gets negative X values).

Re:Christ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014485)

> and Apple just slapped a grey background wallpaper across your second monitor if you fullscreened anything until either 10.7 or 10.8.

Not quite. A monitor was a monitor was a monitor in OSX until 10.7. You could run any app on any monitor. You could have 5 maximized apps on 5 separate monitors just fine. What 10.7 added was "fullscreen" (separate from maximized) - suppress the window's titlebar, and make menu & dock autohide. Poor, poor execution. But it's been that way for 2 years, not forever and ever.

Re:Christ... (1)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about a year ago | (#45012937)

Was it pure failure,or today's sick fascination with 'mobile' that would lead a 'modern-replacement-for-X'

Not even that. Maemo/Meego which by all accounts were slick and responsive used X. You could even change the window manager if you liked, since it was standard X.

Re:Christ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014379)

They were slick and responsive compared to other mobile operating systems of the time (blackberry,symbian, and windows mobile).

Re:Christ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45013031)

Well, I mean, the software has multi-monitor issues because it's not done yet, and that's why they're not shipping it.

I'm not seeing the problem here. If they said "fuck it, we'll make it the new default anyway even though it's craptastic on any two-monitor setup" the way Microsoft did for Metro, yeah, that's bad, but instead they're going with "nope, maybe it'll be ready for next release".

I'll never badmouth a group for delaying a release when the product isn't done yet. That's the correct behavior.

I hope not (0)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about a year ago | (#45012825)

Otherwise the Russians will be pissed!

Re:I hope not (1)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about a year ago | (#45014109)

Offtopic? [wikipedia.org]

X is X (3, Insightful)

deviated_prevert (1146403) | about a year ago | (#45012909)

Like Pulse audio it takes a long time to make a WM that does not have some serious issues somewhere. Ubuntu choosing to try to create a WM more suitable to the Unity gui is understandable. But it is no small task. This is the great part about the Linux kernel not a weakness as the nay sayers that peddle the poison crap that Linux distros are too fragmented. Unlike the alternative which is only united by the fact that with a Windows or Apple window manager you have NO CHOICE PERIOD.

Ubuntu is stable and very usable always with the window manager that they choose, so is Slackware, Knoppix, Mint etc etc etc. The detractors and shills do not realize the real significance of this. Which is the fact that different groups can do what they want as witness the Google WM on top of the kernel. Shills that harp that fragmentation there is a problem are starting to be exposed for what they are as witness the fact that Android is kicking but all over the planet.

Re:X is X (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45012949)

Has pulse ever gotten to that point?

Maybe they should first get rid of Unity. It sucks. It assumes you have one app open at a time, so there is no one step way to pick the 4th window of some application you have. It hates tons of apps like Rdesktop. You get a ? for an icon and if you dare open more than one you again have no way to select a single one. Tiling window managers are more useful.

Re:X is X (1)

stewsters (1406737) | about a year ago | (#45013055)

In the version with 13.04 you can click the program icon again, and it hides other windows and pops up all the windows under that application. It makes it 2 clicks, but . There is some weirdness if you have the window in a different workspace, but its not to bad. I have seen a system like this on a OSX a few years ago, I don't remember what they called it (expose?). The part with the question mark icons annoys me, they should do something about that.

Re:X is X (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45013353)

What they should do is simply get rid of it.

It also breaks focus follows mouse. It is not elegant with multiple work spaces, it makes it a pain to use multiple windows at the same time.

Re:X is X (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about a year ago | (#45013179)

Maybe they should first get rid of Unity. It sucks. It assumes you have one app open at a time, so there is no one step way to pick the 4th window of some application you have.

You can click the application icon again and then it shows a thumbnail gallery of all the app's windows.

Re:X is X (1)

h4rr4r (612664) | about a year ago | (#45013327)

Which adds another step! and obscures my view of my current desktop!
What wonderful progress.

Re:X is X (1)

Gavagai80 (1275204) | about a year ago | (#45013753)

Personally, I haven't had a problem with pulseaudio for a couple years -- after having endless problems before that.

Big cudos for trying! (5, Interesting)

zuse (457033) | about a year ago | (#45012911)

Both to RedHat and Cannonical for actually trying to innovate in this space.

At least one of the projects will fail and there will be instability for those trying out the new solutions, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. I love seeing this because whatever happens, it will make desktop Linux more fun!

Re:Big cudos for trying! (2)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | about a year ago | (#45014421)

RedHat isn't the only Wayland supporter. Its more like Canonical is supporting Mir, and everyone else is working on Wayland.

If you dont like Ubuntu's direction.... (3, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | about a year ago | (#45013307)

Go and try Debian. There is a reason why they have a huge following and most of what people like in Ubuntu is there in debian with none of what people dislike.

Re:If you dont like Ubuntu's direction.... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014181)

Yeah, I can't wait to start using the new and exciting Gnome 3.4!

Re:If you dont like Ubuntu's direction.... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014305)

Debian's conventions are good for servers, but for desktops...

"experimental" means "testing"
"testing" means "stable"
"stable" means "old"

Re:If you dont like Ubuntu's direction.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014549)

No. According to the info taken from packages.debian.org:

Stable: This is the latest official release of the Debian distribution. This is stable and well tested software, which changes only if major security or usability fixes are incorporated.

Testing: This area contains packages that are intended to become part of the next stable distribution. There are strict criteria a package in unstable (see below) must obey before it can be added to testing. Note that "testing" does not get the timely security updates from the security team.

Unstable: This area contains the most recent packages in Debian. Once a package has met our criterion for stability and quality of packaging, it will be included in testing. "unstable" is also not supported by the security team.

Packages in unstable are the least tested and may contain problems severe enough to affect the stability of your system. Only experienced users should consider using this distribution.

Oldstable is the previous version of the last stable Debian release and Experimental and "is used for packages which are still being developed, and with a high risk of breaking your system. It's used by developers who'd like to study and test bleeding edge software. Users shouldn't be using packages from here, because they can be dangerous and harmful even for the most experienced people."

So if you were telling a user switching from LTS Ubuntu to Debian, you would tell to use Stable.

Re:If you dont like Ubuntu's direction.... (1)

iggymanz (596061) | about a year ago | (#45014505)

no, while a great server distro Debian does not put the thought and effort to make the common Linux dekstop components work together, it's a ragged mess that needs hours of manual fixing. other distros derived from Debian DO put in the effort so things have some hope of being configured to work together.

Debian desktop is a huge waste of time.

Canonical (1)

kmf (792603) | about a year ago | (#45013535)

Sometimes I wonder why Canonical develops these new things in secret, want to "force" it mainstream, and then discover that maybe it's not as stable, as other tried and tested as technologies that where developed in the open from the start.

Oh Cononical (1)

wjcofkc (964165) | about a year ago | (#45013947)

I understand where they think Wayland falls short, but rather than going off and trying to create there own display server, they could have instead contributed the functionality they wanted to the Wayland project. And if Wayland wouldn't want it, fork a version of Wayland that is compatible but has what they felt was missing.

Re:Oh Cononical (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014147)

Typical. Why have one cool thing when we can have 4 or 5 "hardly holds the water" things.

Re:Oh Cononical (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45014275)

What the fuck do think Mir is? Ubuntu took a bunch (maybe most) of Wayland and started adding the their Mir stuff. IOW, they did exactly as you suggested they should do. The also did it for the reason you mentioned about not getting their patches approved. Seriously, go check the Wayland mailing list archives and read some of the hostile comments by other (particularly Red Hat) Wayland devs made to Canonical devs. It's hard to believe these guys are regarded as professionals.

Re:Oh Cononical (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45015119)

Yeah, those asshats at canonical. Nobody can take those seriously. Unless you decide to disregard that it's probably not that different to how the "professionals" at Microsoft or Oracle works, only you don't get to see that.

Personally, I think it's because software developers are not engineers. They are a crossbreed between artists and academics, both species known for their petty, childish and vicious feuds.

Disclaimer; No, I didn't misunderstand anything

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