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Nobel Winners Illustrate Israel's "Brain Drain"

timothy posted 1 year,10 days | from the various-brains-various-drains dept.

Businesses 214

barlevg writes "Two of the three scientists sharing this year's Nobel Prize in Chemistry have Israeli citizenship, with Dr. Arieh Warshel having been born and educated in Israel, yet both are based at universities in the United States. These two scientists are perhaps the highest profile examples of a growing problem in the so-called "start-up nation," which is known for its high-tech tech companies and scientific innovation, and yet which loses more researchers to emigration than any other western nation. The problem? Large salary gaps between US and Israeli institutions. As Daniel Hershkowitz, president of Bar-Ilan University put it, 'I don't see Israel being able to compete with what they offer in the United States.'"

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Stereotypes? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107009)

Is this an allusion to the cheap Jew thing?

Re:Stereotypes? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107067)

Don't be ridiculous. Fields that are in high demand always lose workers overseas when the pay is better there.

Re:Stereotypes? (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107799)

Don't be ridiculous.

Check the URL atop your browser.

Re:Stereotypes? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107157)

Your stereotypes are just Yellin` out TROLLLLLLOP!
The article is intentionally misleading (as many "journalishtick" works are these days).
Take the CIA and brain-drain for example; the CIA has over 500 agents working in Paris, France, but the ACTUAL data gathered by the CIA Paris offices is slightly less than what mossad gathers, with its 100 agents. The reason for this is because the mossad works within the community, co-opting many people. Heres how it works, most of French-Jewry have some link in the holocaust, and their perception of mossad is as a sort of protector; other people are paid, either in cash, goods, or business opportunities; yet other people are coerced into cooperating with mossad, and yet others are intimidated.

Despite their having a smaller station (and less staff), the data they gather usually surpasses that of the CIA, MI6 or the FSB (and the three big boys usually get most of their data stolen by mossad).
Ask jonathan pollard if he feels he was wrong to do what he did.... the usnavy should run a tightship, but enevitably immigrant and marginalised peoples have greater loyalties elsewhere than to their host nation; that is how mossad works.

Now, israeli brain drain is much, much different from, say, India. The ratio of car-owners-to-households can tell you that.
So these "enterprising young israelis", often with impressive CV`s (resumee) citing "highly disciplined team-player" from their army Kernel, some references from well-respected figure in the target industry, these young israelis get great jobs in the west, they have intricate and infallible social-support-networks.

As the English say (and Sacha Baron Cohen is an israeli, not English), "at the end of the day,"

These perps lie and decieve labour-forces and investors, fraudulently float in IPO`s, make billions off the backs of the aforementioned, and then "retire" or hightail it back to their little tax-haven-offshore-stolen-data-safehouse in the Eastern Medditerranean, juST LIKE MEYER LANSKY AFTER HE RIPPED OFF THE MOB.

Go figure, and stop Yellen "race"!

well fished, Fishman!

Re: Stereotypes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107473)

In what sense is Sacha Baron Cohen not English? Ok he's arguably Israeli too (just as he's arguably Welsh). But why not English?

Re:Stereotypes? (2)

nospam007 (722110) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107479)

"Is this an allusion to the cheap Jew thing?"

Not at all. It's not only Israel, most of the US Nobel price winners cannot become president of the United States.

Re:Stereotypes? (1, Funny)

smitty_one_each (243267) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107807)

That's because the vast bulk of NPP winners don't know how to wage war and then blame their predecessor.
Tricky art, requiring copious support from the codpiece media.

American subsidies (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107015)

With all of the $Billions we send to that country every SINGLE YEAR, they still can't manage to pay their own citizens a decent wage?

Re:American subsidies (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107039)

100 billion to be exact.

Detroit only needed 19 billion to stay afloat.

Re:American subsidies (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107051)

Obviously, Detroit has too few Jews and too many Blacks, and we all know that Barack Bush does not care about Black People.

Re:American subsidies (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107127)

It's true, blacks hate each other. More blacks were murdered by another black this year than blacks murdered by KKK members in their entire history.

Re:American subsidies (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107165)

Check out the stats for white-on-white rape and murder.

Re:American subsidies (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107169)

Brothers! The black on black hatred must end. We must come together in the spirit of cooperation and friendship to dedicate our efforts toward the furthering of science at the Gay Nigger Academy of America. For a Gay Universe!

Re:American subsidies (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107151)

100 billion a year?
I think think you're off by about 96 billion.
nice try though.

Re:American subsidies (5, Interesting)

erikkemperman (252014) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107183)

No need to exaggerate, the published figures warrant GP's question already.

Since 1985, it has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel, with Israel being the largest annual recipient of American aid from 1976 to 2004 and the largest cumulative recipient of aid since World War II.

You have got to wonder why a relatively wealthy and developed nation should be the largest recipient. The same article also answers the question of why this is mostly not being spent on scientists' salaries:

Almost all U.S. aid to Israel is now in the form of military assistance, while in the past it also received significant economic assistance

source [wikipedia.org]

The interesting question is whether this is really in the best interests of the US citizens, or just the senators and congressman who stand to lose their jobs if they get on the wrong side of AIPAC.

In addition many Individuals in the US are helping finance the bits of Israel which (even) the US government refuses to support officially, viz the illegal settlements (according to international law). They get to do this tax free in many cases though, which the elected government could easily stop if it wanted (and dared) to.

Of course there are lot of reflexive Israel supporters on /. so critical questions get modded down. But established political scientists are starting to ask the same things, see e.g. this [wikipedia.org] .

Re:American subsidies (2)

Luckyo (1726890) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107195)

It is in best interest of US, because they effectively provide extremist islamists with a huge target they hate far more then US and that is close enough to be easily reachable, making it a good lightning rod for most of the violent terrorism and extremism of that kind.

There are of course other factors in play, such as power of mostly jewish financial lobby, but realpolitik suggests that Israel as lightning rod-approach largely works.

Re:American subsidies (4, Insightful)

erikkemperman (252014) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107271)

I don't think it works that way. Much of the resentment felt towards the US throughout the ME is not just because of their one-sided support for Israel, but mostly because of their support for the brutal regimes of their countries (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc).

Re:American subsidies (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107257)

Yours was a reasonable comment, rare for the topic on these forums. Let me fill in a bit:
The aid to Israel was tied to the 1978 peace treaty with Egypt. Same with the aid to Egypt. We pay them to keep the peace.
Peace and stability at least on part of the middle east is in our national interest, and many would argue it's worth a few bucks.
The aid is mostly in the form of American weapons, it acts like a subsidy to our own arms industry. Most of the money stays in the US.
It also keeps them from buying weapons from the Russians or Chinese. The region has been an arms sales showroom for a half century or more and we want them hooked up to our brand, evolving our technology.
The crazy thing is the idea of sealing a peace treaty with weapons transfers, but there are numerous social, financial, and geopolitical forces in play to keep it so.
It's far more complex than just lobbyists, not that they don't play their part.

Re:American subsidies (1)

erikkemperman (252014) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107281)

Yes, sure it is more complex than just lobbyists, but I don't think it could have gone so far out of whack without concerted efforts to make it so. Just my opinion, of course.

Re:American subsidies (5, Insightful)

gtall (79522) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107597)

You left out that the result of American military aid is that their armed forces are now dependent on the U.S. This gives the U.S. leverage to tell them to knock it the fuck off when they start getting in each other's business. In short, they have to keep the peace or they won't have much to fight with.

Re:American subsidies (4, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107459)

You have got to wonder why a relatively wealthy and developed nation should be the largest recipient

The answer is obvious given the way Washington works. They have a very well run lobby group with good connections to people that set policy. That's the major difference between Israel and any other country with a large US expatriot population.

helping finance the bits ... the US government refuses to support officially, viz the illegal

Wind back not very many years and there's all those people, including currently serving Senators, that were sending money to the IRA at a time when it was being used to buy materials for bombs. Morality tends to get ignored in US international relations.

Re:American subsidies (-1, Flamebait)

cascadingstylesheet (140919) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107619)

You have got to wonder why a relatively wealthy and developed nation should be the largest recipient.

Um, because they are an ally? Because they are civilization, and not barbarians intent on world domination? Because they are surrounded by barbarians?

It's really not that complicated.

Re:American subsidies (1)

erikkemperman (252014) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107721)

That they're an ally is not disputed but doesn't explain why they were, for decades on end, the largest recipient of "aid". Israel is not a poor country. Lots of other allies, rich and poor alike, get nothing.

It's geopolitical strategy, in other words.

Also you're a bit too quick on the draw with the barbarian rhetoric. Look up "civilization, cradle of". If you are of the persuasion that group A is 100% civilized and group B is 100% barbaric, you're not looking very carefully. In fact it makes me think you're just parroting some talking head with an agenda.

Re:American subsidies (1)

cascadingstylesheet (140919) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107743)

It's geopolitical strategy, in other words.

Well, we can't have that, I guess.

Re:American subsidies (1)

erikkemperman (252014) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107805)

It's geopolitical strategy, in other words.

Well, we can't have that, I guess.

Not masquerading as "aid", in my opinion, no.

social/political situation? (4, Insightful)

j-beda (85386) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107023)

"The problem? Large salary gaps between US and Israeli institutions. "

Nothing to do with the social/political situation in the middle east? I know the USA social and political situation is kind of crazy, but it seems to be a bit saner at the level of organized groups trying to kick each other off this or that piece of land. I suspect that this has at least SOME effect on people's decisions to emigrate.

Lawn darts. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107045)

Missiles landing in one's backyard is the other.

Re:Lawn darts / Pay Gap (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107313)

Missiles landing in one's backyard is the other.

I'm an Israeli and I've had missiles falling near my house and that's usually not the reason.
The pay gap usually isn't either. Senior professors make $75k and above and it goes a long way in Israel.

Unfortunately, the budget of Harvard at $3.7B is higher than the budget of the entire Israeli academia and they only support 21,000 students. Tel Aviv university alone is nearly 30,000. Giving a scientist $5m for a lab is nearly impossible in Israel. That's why they don't come back after the post-doc.

Re:Lawn darts / Pay Gap (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107839)

Missiles landing in one's backyard is the other.

I'm an Israeli and I've had missiles falling near my house and that's usually not the reason.
The pay gap usually isn't either. Senior professors make $75k and above and it goes a long way in Israel.

$75k is starting salary for a first-year assistant professor in America. Senior professors make two or three times that.

Re:social/political situation? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107059)

I wonder what the rate of emigration by the highly educated was from South Africa during the last gasps of apartheid?

Re:social/political situation? (3, Informative)

mi (197448) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107101)

Nothing to do with the social/political situation in the middle east?

Only indirectly — having to spend so much time, money, and effort on national defense is hard economically for a tiny country. Despite all the help from the US, it is still a heavy burden on the economy.

Re:social/political situation? (1)

gl4ss (559668) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107295)

..you mean to say that directly it doesn't affect the motivation of people to stay in a country with instability all around?

btw it's only hard economically if you need to have walls on every border and expect an attack all the time, while occupying parts of your neighbors..

(but the US is a great display of how it can be hard on the economy even for a big country so...)

Aggressiveness (1, Insightful)

dutchwhizzman (817898) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107325)

It may have to do with the aggressiveness that this tiny country keeps using to conquer all the prime farming and building land at it's border for the pas 60 years. People kind of resent it if you do that and tend to attack you to take the land back. They'll stop that after a few dozen years if you stop taking land, usually, if we may believe history. However, if you do it again and again, you just keep adding enemies to replace the ones that have died from old age. Maybe that's a practice Israel should consider, if it has to spend so much money on "defence".

Re:social/political situation? (2)

dbIII (701233) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107463)

That's the price of going to war every time there is an election looming. Even with a shooting fish in a barrel approach at Gaza it's still not exactly cheap.

Re:social/political situation? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107147)

Actually, I would say that socially people are much warmer in the Middle-East (the kind of thing the media wouldn't cover) and it's one thing you'd actually lose out by moving to North America.

Re:social/political situation? (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107199)

No surprise: America is full of greedy selfish people because every greedy selfish person from all over the world has moved to America in search of American Money. So thank you, World, for sending all your assholes to America to ruin America for Americans.

Feel the love (1)

dutchwhizzman (817898) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107333)

Yeah, they are much warmer. They invite their neighbours over for some rockets, or a helicopter attack. Or they assume they can build on their neighbours land. the USA may be not the warmest place socially, but the Middle East isn't that friendly either.

Re:social/political situation? (3, Interesting)

Smauler (915644) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107167)

The middle east is a big place, and the social/political situation is radically different in different places. Israel is currently much safer than it has been for a while.

I grew up in Oman as a kid, and couldn't ask for a more stable and good place to grow up. Though we lived in housing for us, it ended at the bottom of our road, and I used to leave and run about building sites and play with the locals lots.

I agree (Israeli) (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107275)

I tend to agree, this is one of the biggest issues for me personally. There are quite a few other issues such as orthodocs Jews political influence and the fact that there are limited opportunities due to the small size of the country.

But overall the tech industry is pretty much entirely in Tel Aviv/Hertzelia areas (with limited niches in Haifa and even less in Jerusalem). If you look at the voting record the Tel Aviv/Hertzelia area is remarkably left wing liberal (against occupation) while the rest of the country is the exact polar opposite. This generally means the brains (and financial growth) are most likely liberals.

I wanted to immigrate myself but without a foreign nationality starting from scratch is really hard, plus my aging mother is also an anchor. I plan to do it immediately when opportunity presents itself.

Re:social/political situation? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107383)

"The problem? Large salary gaps between US and Israeli institutions. "

Nothing to do with the social/political situation in the middle east? I know the USA social and political situation is kind of crazy, but it seems to be a bit saner at the level of organized groups trying to kick each other off this or that piece of land. I suspect that this has at least SOME effect on people's decisions to emigrate.

They must pay really crappy over there if we can coax them over here with H1B visa pay. :P

Re:social/political situation? (5, Insightful)

golodh (893453) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107515)

Israel's brain drain is serious but it is also one of its life-lines. Whether it appreciates this or not. The constant stream of people traveling between Israel and the West is one of the things that maintain Israel's ties to the US and Europe.

As everywhere in the world the dominant language of discourse in science and engineering is English, and US universities continue to dominate the lists of best and most influential institutions of learning.

If you look around at MIT you will note that 50%-60% of the PhD. students are from abroad. And when they get their degree, they see all kinds of attractive job opportunities right where they live. From start-ups to established companies. And yes, it's one of the ways in which the US attracts talent. It out-competes almost everyone else by offering top-notch education, top-notch research, and top-notch jobs. And that isn't about to change (barring short-sighted politics such as de-funding research).

But perhaps the most important of all: the US really does offer anyone a chance to earn their way solely on personal merit. And that's something very precious that's not available in many other countries where "who you know" counts for more than "what you know".

So yes, there is a tremendous pull. But before you bemoan the big bad US of A luring away all the talent, please realize that there is also (in the case of Israel) a substantial push.

Good friends of mine made Aliyah to Israel about 30 years ago. They were well-educated (an economist and a psychologist) learned Hebrew, did their Miluim (military service), one as a private the other as an officer, and found careers in Tel-Aviv.

What they saw around 15 years ago was a country that increasingly transformed itself from a Western country to a Middle Eastern country. Political polarization, rise of religious ultra-orthodoxy, privileges for religious people (e.g. Torah students exempt from the same military service that takes about a month per year from others), .

What they also saw was a country that was basically unwilling to reach a sustainable accommodation with the Palestinians despite the demographic, economic, legal, and humanitarian issues. They felt the consequences of that in person when their reserve army duties took them to e.g. the Gaza strip where they, in army uniform and armed, would have to face off against 16-18 year old Palestinian protestors / rioters and wield batons (or worse) against people who had no education to speak of, almost no wealth, no opportunities or prospects worth mentioning, no realistic way out, and no serious hopes for improvement. If that were a transitional phase, it would be bearable, but was it? It didn't look that way and it still doesn't.

Attempts to persuade the political majority to reach a sustainable settlement did not succeed (if there were any easy and simple solutions they would have been embraced long ago) and indeed a sustainable settlement seemed drifting further away all the time with the (in part religiously motivated) Eretz Israel (Big Israel) idea.

So they were left with the prospect of staying in an intransigent, polarizing and increasingly besieged country where their children would face the same difficulties, only worse, and without the frictionless alternative of having a double passport.

So they decided to leave and they are not alone. Obviously that segment of the population with the most portable assets (intellect) has the best prospects of leaving.

That's the "push" part of the equation.

So, yes, there's brain-drain but a lively exchange of people and ideas is (as I see it) needed for Israel's mental health. Also there are reasons for the brain-drain that have little to do with big bad US gobbling up all the talent.

Re:social/political situation? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107719)

"The problem?"p>

illicit israeli WMD STOCKPILES, amongst others, VANUNU`s (VAN-KNEW-KNEW) captivity...
also, illicit israeli space-weapon program,
also, polonium poisoning of certain individuals,
also, the homosexual ex-governor`s honeytrap boyfriend

How soon before US Brain Drain kicks in? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107029)

Because the United States is such a fascist shithole that oppresses all the non-foreign non-immigrant non-Israeli Americans, who were, you know, actually born and raised in America.

Israel (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107033)

is an illegitimate and a terrorist state. Boycott Isralie products and political action till they allow Palestinian representation.

Re:Israel (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107077)

is not a western nation, but the summary tries to imply that it is.

Re:Israel (2, Insightful)

landofcleve (1959610) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107119)

I'll second that with my userid visible despite the ramifications.

When jews export terrorism get back to us (2)

Viol8 (599362) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107589)

In the meantime I'll be worrying more about the extremist trend in Islam which - surprise surprise - tends to come from the arab countries and their patsies in the backwards *stan nations. Unfortunately this intolerant dim witted view of morality has now spread to africa.

Re:Israel (1)

gtall (79522) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107625)

All the states in the mid-east are illegitimate, their boundaries were drawn by the colonial powers. They aren't really countries so much, except for Israel, as they are containers for tribes and sects. Oh, and by the way, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem became a gruppen-fuhrer in Hilter's Nazi Germany. He had his own squad of SS in Balkans rounding up Jews for extermination and hoped to export that little policy gem to the Mid-East.

Re:Israel (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107655)

Why AC? Are you confused and believe hate filled anti-Semites are persecuted anywhere? Use your log-in. Collect your karma.

Re:Israel (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107871)

How is he anti-semitic? Palestinians are semites, whereas the people who moved there in the 50s were Poles, Germans, Russians, British, French and American.

Con-science (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107047)

Maybe they don't want to participate in the ongoing Judaization of Palestine.

Israel? Oh, you mean occupied Palestine. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107071)

And stop calling them "settlers." They aren't "settlers" they are land grabbers stealing land from Palestinians.

Re:Israel? Oh, you mean occupied Palestine. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107409)

And stop calling them "settlers." They aren't "settlers" they are land grabbers stealing land from Palestinians.

One could say the same thing of the palestinians:
Stop calling them "palestinians", historically there is no such thing as "palestinians".
They are egyptian and jordanian refugees trying to grab land from Israel, which claim to this land (and more) predates them by 5 millenia.
These people turned into palestinians the day the state of Israel was declared.

which claim to this land (and more) predates them (1)

basecastula (2556196) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107455)

" which claim to this land (and more) predates them by 5 millenia." Woah wait a minute. "them"? Who owns what here.

Re:Israel? Oh, you mean occupied Palestine. (2, Informative)

Gavagai80 (1275204) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107489)

Who do you think palestinians are? They're the descendents of ancient Israel who never left. The fact that they changed religion in the intervening centuries does not invalidate their claim to their own land they've been living on for millennia.

Re:Israel? Oh, you mean occupied Palestine. (1)

gtall (79522) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107629)

And the Jews were carted off by by the Babylonians and forced out by the Romans, they weren't given a choice. And when Islam took over, that peaceful religion, all other religions were persecuted to varying degrees that changed over time. Go ask Saudi Arabia to set up a Christian church and see how far you get. So yeah, the Palestinians are the ones who were left standing after helping to chase out the others.

Re:Israel? Oh, you mean occupied Palestine. (3, Interesting)

dbIII (701233) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107465)

Americans don't care because it reminds them of cowboys and indians.

TFS seems confused... (3, Insightful)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107083)

TFA mentioned 'large salary gaps' as a problem in certain areas (like finance); but other factors in areas like the sciences (a successful academic career isn't penury; but the cash per unit effort and talent is kind of mediocre).

Particularly for the scientists and other less-likely-to-be-salary-motivated types, I have to wonder if it suggests that the quality of life, at least for people of the class who have options, that a small country in a mostly-hostile neighborhood can offer just isn't that high.

In the US, for instance, there is a lot of migration, from state to state, or even within the larger states, that would count as 'brain drain' except that the US is huge so both the origin and the destination are American for accounting purposes.

By area, Israel is just slightly larger than Massachusetts, which isn't exactly a big state(and, although it scores pretty well on academic opportunities, quality of life, etc. is hardly retains all the people born there, nor is it even imaginable how it could be world-class at enough things to do so, you can only fit so much, and there is plenty of competition with other virtues).

Re:TFS seems confused... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107117)

There are plenty of good reasons to live here. Competition for academic jobs here is strong, despite the compensation. But the competition probably helps keep salaries low (although that's true everywhere).

Whatever the reason, low academic compensation helps keep the risk costs low of doing something crazy like founding a startup. So it cuts both ways.

In the meantime, all those drained brains keep contacts with home, meaning Israeli science keeps a higher level of contact with international academia, no bad thing in itself.

Re:TFS seems confused... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107221)

Exemplification of grandeur may imply bank-robbery..braindrain is not applicable to israel, its tactical.
Stop Yellen` Wolf! err. for crying out loud

Compare the CIA station in Johannesburg, South Africa to the mossad station; CIA has ten times as many agents, but mossad gathers more data from its 50 or so agents; "how does that make sense?", one might ask, well, it works because in Jewish communities abroad, there are usually strong links to the "holocaust" (not the African Holocaust, the ashkenaz/sephard won), and many community members perceive mossad to the protector. mossad gets direct input from many community members voluntarily, others may be paid in cash, goods, contraband. Yet others may be given favourable business-OPORTOtunities. Others may be coerced or intimidated until they cooperate.

This has proven extremely effective at gathering information, and if you were to ask jonathan pollard if he feels he did wrong, you will see the mindset at play. The usnavy must run a tightship. immigrant and marginalised peoples usually have loyalties beyond that of their host-nation. That is what mossad relies on.

The so-called braindrain is not applicable to israelis; compare for example the Indian brain-drain.....what is the car-ownership-to-household-ratio?

It is true that these "enterprising young israelis" will get great jobs in the west, they come equipped with resumes (CV`S) showing "highly disciplined team player" from their army Kernel, ample references from well-respected players in the target industry. Upon arrival, they enjoy the benefits of a social-support-network going right over the capitol building.
These promis ing young israelis inevitably trample a labour-force, deceive investors, fraudulently float at IPO, make billions off the backs of the host country, then they hightail it back to their tax-haven-wmd-cache/stockpile in the Easternmost Meditterrannean, juST LIKE MEYER LANSKY AFTER HE RIPPED OFF THE MOB!

something certains smells, sniff, sniff, Fishman

Re:TFS seems confused... (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107391)

Particularly for the scientists and other less-likely-to-be-salary-motivated types

I'm not sure that you understand the amount of variation between countries. The US pays about twice as much as France does for academics, for example. Maybe when you're earning 6 figures a doubling doesn't sound like so much anymore, but for someone that works for a university, it is a hard thing to ignore.

Have some data. [insidehighered.com] You can be the worst in your field in Canada and live nearly as well as an Israeli professor who's the best in the world.

The amount of Socialism... (1, Troll)

mi (197448) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107093)

When we get as much Socialism here, as Israel has, we will not be able to offer as big salaries either... Maybe, another 10-20 years? One more Obama and we are done.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107115)

Don't worry, President Kang will continue the trend. American idiot voters love their tyrants.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (2, Interesting)

sqrt(2) (786011) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107133)

Right, because Europe doesn't have any prestigious academic institutions doing prize winning research. And I'm sure being in a perpetual state of war on their own soil just does wonders for the Israeli economy and ability to fund fripperies like science and technology.

We could do with some real socialism here, instead of the crony-capitalist half-measures we get from our system of compromises.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107175)

Nationalized health care is good for startups, though.

OTOH, Israel has among the strongest protections for investors in the world. Maybe too strong. So it's a strange sort of Socialism...

Re:The amount of Socialism... (3, Insightful)

Smauler (915644) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107189)

You do know the red threat basically ended almost a quarter a century ago? The only thing socialism threatens you with now is better healthcare, and welfare (at a price, admittedly).

Socialism =/= Big government.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107321)

The only way for socialism to work is via big government because it requires that the government take-to-give. Heck, the two largest budget items are Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security, which are both insolvent. And yes, both are even larger than Defense spending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png).

What you meant was Socialism =/= Communism, which is just socialism enforced by a government that controls all of the businesses.

What the US needs is less government, which includes a smaller defense budget, as well as less interference through social programming (intentionally not "programs"). The idea that we cannot go back to even 2008 levels of spending--before the supposedly one-time bailouts and otherwise huge deficits--is ludicrous. Socialism will break the back of an already weakened economy that cannot support the government that does not even bother trying to support itself by avoiding disgustingly high deficits.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (3, Interesting)

Savage-Rabbit (308260) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107441)

The only way for socialism to work is via big government because it requires that the government take-to-give. Heck, the two largest budget items are Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security, which are both insolvent. And yes, both are even larger than Defense spending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png).

What you meant was Socialism =/= Communism, which is just socialism enforced by a government that controls all of the businesses.

What the US needs is less government, which includes a smaller defense budget, as well as less interference through social programming (intentionally not "programs"). The idea that we cannot go back to even 2008 levels of spending--before the supposedly one-time bailouts and otherwise huge deficits--is ludicrous. Socialism will break the back of an already weakened economy that cannot support the government that does not even bother trying to support itself by avoiding disgustingly high deficits.

To tell you the truth all of this conservative right-think vs. liberal wrong-think you Americans have got going is something I'll never understand. I don't really see the difference between parties like your Democrats who adopt many Social Democrat ideas and Conservatives who profess to favor free market capitalism. They both practice socialism, they just do it differently. With the Soc. Dems. it's is usually vote fishing by handing entitlements to groups that didn't earn them, i.e. schemes like "lets take all those fat private pensions and nationalize them, then lets pay out equally to everybody regardless of how much they paid into the system or whether they contributed at all". Another favorite with the Soc. Dems. is taxing the middle classes and businesses to death and levying ridiculous taxes on property that forces people to move out of houses that have been in the family for generations and that have become quite valuable due to real estate prices rising sharply over the decades (in city centers for example) because they can't afford the property taxes. WIth the conservatives it's usually corporate socialism. They deregulate the financial industry, cause a recession, the banks have to write off massive amounts of debt to companies and subprime lenders and it is Joe/Jane Suburbanite (and eventually their kids) plus smaller businesses that end up footing the bill to bail out banks and big byzantine corporations because they are job-providers and not bailing them out would put people out of work and that's not worth many votes in the next election. Mind you, much as they profess to hate things like Medicare, Bush Jr. didn't seem to have any problems fishing for votes by handing out $8.4 trillion in unfunded obligations with Medicare D so it's not as if right thinking Conservatives are above borrowing ideas from evil Socialists.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (1)

dunkelfalke (91624) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107461)

And neither is socialism. The kind of closest thing to socialism that actually exists are employee stock ownership plans. Well, actually worker cooperatives are even closer, almost the real deal, but they are few and far inbetween.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107329)

That depends on how you define big government. There are a lot of people, and indeed even a whole party, who believe that they should be able to leech from society by collecting the benefits of the infrastructure, institutions, and legal framework which makes their businesses and those in which they invest possible, but without being compelled to pay taxes to maintain that society. Having a way to force them to pay taxes is "big government" in their eyes. In short, big government is anything they can't buy shares of with the power to make them do something they don't want to do.

Load of nonsense (Israeli) (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107267)

I actually want to immigrate because of the social issue but financially it would be worse in the states.
Salary gross are higher but if you add to that insurance, kindergarten, rent etc. the differences are effectively eliminated.

Yes the taxes here are ridiculously high but that's because of the army not the social safety net.

Re:The amount of Socialism... (1)

fritsd (924429) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107575)

When we get as much Socialism here, as Israel has, we will not be able to offer as big salaries either... Maybe, another 10-20 years? One more Obama and we are done.

WOW... that's amazing...
A Slashdotter who calls the Likud - Yisrael Beitenu [wikipedia.org] coalition government "socialist". Now I have seen everything.. I bet Avigdor Lieberman [wikipedia.org] would not be impressed if you called him a pussy-footed Socialist to his face.

Strange (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107107)

Aren't we over due for another "US losing its lead in science stories?" You'd think we had a future in science given all the Noble moving here.

Hopefully US will attack Israel (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107121)

and give the land back to Palestine

Rocket science isn't required for this one, folks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107135)

It's a barren desert like Las Vegas, but instead of showgirls and casinos
you have martial law and suicide bombers, along with various neighboring
countries which would like to wipe the place off the map.

The question is not why anyone would leave, the question is why anyone
would stay. I don't pretend to have an answer for that.

Re:Rocket science isn't required for this one, fol (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107207)

As an actual Israeli, I assure you that it is not a barren desert. There are 2 "major" deserts in the South of the country, and even in the desert there are huge green spots. A lot of the country is greener than almost any place you will find. Even some of the drier parts have been made green. For an American, I'd describe it more as the greener parts of Northern and Southern California depending on which part of the country. For a small country, there's a lot of variation.

Why would someone want to stay? As someone who grew up in Israel, left, and came back, I can answer that vs. the USA.

1. A different, more relaxing in certain senses lifestyles. Families in Israel tend to be closer I find, and there's more of a sense of community in most places. Even non-religious people for example tend to get together for Shabbat (Sabbath) dinner every week and eat great food, drink wine, chat, etc.

2. Different pace of life. Faster in some ways, slower in others. I feel people tend to value personal connections more as well. So much so, the entire country works on connections which can also be a problem.

3. Despite the racist and ridiculous posts in this article, Israelis have a deep connection to the land that dates back very far in most cases. It's hard to explain to an outsider, but it's always been our home. You can argue who owns what, but I can tell that a lot of land and other things have been usurped from my own family in the past. Our people have been massacred in Israel as well as obviously abroad, and we have a long memory. We have a tie to our land and for a lot of us, it is the only place we can feel safe. I feel safer in Israel than America, both in terms of crime and in general. No, there aren't suicide bombers and missiles landing everywhere, but on the other hand some places can be rather unsafe at times depending on political conditions. Even so, people fight on.

4. National Health Care and arguably better retirement options. This is just a disaster in America, sorry.

5. More freedoms in many ways. In Israel, you can start a campfire without a strike force of park rangers descending on you asking for permits and other nonsense.For better or worse, many day-to-day laws are treated more as a suggestion. Things get resolve, people get fined or even arrested, but it's a middle-eastern culture with democracy, which encourages a lot of "I'll do whatever I want." Take it or leave it.

6. Great food. I eat better at Cafes and Coffee shops in Israel than in many "fine" restaurants in America.

7. A mix of old world and new. It's comforting to me at least to be able to get things without chemicals, packaged 100 times, and that are actually fresh and homemade. At the same time, it's modern enough I can get most of everything

8. Culture. Israeli culture is very rich, and people don't really realize it until they're gone. This is why you see a lot of Israelis abroad hanging out with other Israelis, going to synagogues when before they were not religious, etc.

9. A belief in ourselves. The nasty things people say about Israel (ex: this thread) bring us closer together and sometimes make us realize it's the only place we can call home. It's amazing so many people care about such a tiny country and makeup such nonsense. You could at least read our history and visit a few times (better yet live here) before you make unfounded ridiculous comments.

10. Hot people. There's a lot of hot people. Really, there are. Good place to find a husband or wife.

Why leave?

1. Everything is very very expensive.

2. Did I mention everything is expensive? Well, maybe not street food.

3. Israeli universities are not be funded well. In fact, they are in many cases funded less than 40 years ago.

4. Children. It's a great place to raise them, but some parents just don't want to send their kids to the army. I view this as a sign of weakness and disloyalty, but on the other hand I can understand parents protecting their children. Mostly the army is not so heroic, rather just a waste of time. Majority of people go from place to place, doing hardly anything but nonsense and getting sleep deprived a lot.

5. Stress. It's relaxing in many ways, but stressful in others. Because of our roots and situation, people tend to be more pushy and hard to deal with if you don't know them. It's annoying to have to fight for everything.

Cue the random Palestinian posts that have nothing to do with the actual slashdot post. Don't even get me started on how wrong 99% of you are anyway if you read some basic history. Spend 2 years here and I guarantee the way you think will be forever changed.

10.

Re:Rocket science isn't required for this one, fol (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107749)

Why is this marked troll? If you disagree, it's hardly a troll. It seems informative and on point to me, vs. the grandparent which is an obvious troll.

Re:Rocket science isn't required for this one, fol (1)

CurryCamel (2265886) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107317)

That is an equally accurate description of both Israel and USA. Only for USA, the neighbours are farther away, and the terrorists seem to prefer automatic rifles.

The same question applies, though. And unlike you, I do know the answer.

Re:Rocket science isn't required for this one, fol (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107767)

Your post makes no sense. How does most of this apply to the US? I'm sorry, you're more likely to be mugged, shot, raped, stabbed, etc. in a major US city than a victim of a terrorist attack. Even then, there's a difference between safer day to day life vs. random violence on the street. Both are frightening, but in much different ways.

Simple Solution (1, Flamebait)

pitchpipe (708843) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107179)

Simple solution: pay your scientists/researchers more. It's only complicated when you have a Republican mindset that idealizes entrepreneurship and denigrates science.

Re:Simple Solution (1)

gtall (79522) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107631)

Well, cut Republicans some slack. They cannot simply support science because it stops them from just making shit up...well, it doesn't stop them but it does hold up a competing standard.

if they can't earn enough in Israel.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107191)

I know of a few Islamic countries that would pay them handsomely for their nuclear experience.

More like a nose drain... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107209)

Ever see the nose on a Jew? Oy vey! And have you ever noticed how they all look alike? Inbreeding!

Most Countries Have Trouble Matching US Salaries (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107229)

and face the exact same problems. It also helps that the US education system is an utter joke, making it easier to get trained elsewhere, and then move to the US for their high salaries.

Well, yeah (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107277)

Where else you gonna get a brain drain from? Africa? Ho ho ho!!!

"any other western nation" (2)

Hypotensive (2836435) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107283)

Israel is not a Western nation. It's in the Middle East.

Re:"any other western nation" (2, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107477)

Of course it's "Western". They are moving the Indians to the reservations and then taking over the best parts of the reservations by force without even handing over a fistfull of dollars.

Re:"any other western nation" (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107693)

got my vote for immigration chief;
next depression, you will know where to deport the traitorous charlatans, AFTER seizing their assets and freezing all israeli-linked accounts.

It's about funding and staff positions (1)

iceco2 (703132) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107305)

a lot more then it is about salary, at least for university professors.
For engeneirs it's more about cost of living and specifically cost of housing

Western? (5, Interesting)

Antonovich (1354565) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107327)

I'm not sure everyone would agree that Israel is a Western nation (not that there is anything wrong with not being Western!!!) but the brain drain in many, many places makes Israel's look pretty meagre. I once read that some of the top Indian publicly funded institutions had 90%+ emigration rates a few years after graduation. Coming from another brain-drain country (New Zealand), these facts ended up changing my view on publicly funded tertiary education - why should a plumber, who started working and paying taxes at 18, pay for me to get a high quality 6-year tertiary education if he is not going to see any benefit from that? Sure, were I to contribute back to society through higher (absolute) taxes, providing employment, leadership or even just being culturally more aware from my education, there is real justification... But I, like many others, simply left straight after 6 years at university to somewhere with more people, closer to "the action" (Europe/US/East Asia). Israel is certainly closer to Europe than NZ but political reasons make it even more isolated...

Re:Western? (3, Interesting)

Kjella (173770) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107511)

Depends on how much the brain drain is permanent, right after their degree I know many, many of my fellow students that were free as a bird and would jump at the opportunity to work abroad, international work experience, culture, language, seeing the world and so on. Then they think about starting a family and homesickness sets in like a homing beacon. It's one thing to travel around as a hired gun to the highest bidder, it's another to raise kids in a foreign culture. Grandparents want to see their grandchildren and so on. Of course there are two parents, maybe the compromise is neither or they both want to stay but if a fair percentage return home with foreign work experience it might pay off well. It shouldn't be ignored that if you have made decent money in the US you're a rich man in India if you choose to return there.

They are also importing (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107497)

Israel may be exporting a lot of brains to USA, but they are also importing a lot from elsewhere. A previous employer participated in a joint project with IBM research lab in Haifa. Of the four persons I personally worked with, three were originally born in Soviet Union and the fourth had immigrated form Australia. When I asked, they said their group is not really exceptional, there are many with similar composition in research institutions in Israel.

Isn't usa part of israel? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107513)

Same people rule both countries, usa's treasury is israel's treasury, u.s. troops are israel's private army, ...

This is just stupid. (2)

Sqr(twg) (2126054) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107543)

Where's the statistics that show this "brain drain"? Sure Israel has a high rate of emmigration, but that's because it also has a high rate of immigration, and a large fraction of dual citizenship holders. One of the Nobel Prize winners from TFS actually illustrates this perfectly. Dr. Levitt was born and raised outside of Israel, but is now a citizen and spends six months a year there (according to Wikipedia.) Counting people like him as "emmigrants" is very missledaing.

capitalistic bullshit (3, Insightful)

Joining Yet Again (2992179) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107563)

It has very little to do with salary. Nobel-level researchers could earn a hundred times as much by going into banking, if that's what they wanted.

It's about living environment, resources provided to academics, political outlook, and any number of things which normal people not simplifying humans to cogs in a machine use when deciding where to settle. America's response to technically brilliant (though rarely to socially brilliant) people has always been, "Sure, come here and we'll let you do your shit. What do you need? No problem."

Re:capitalistic bullshit (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107617)

It works both ways, too. All the fetal stem cell researchers left the US years ago, mot moving to France, where their research didn't get the weird and confusing political ramifications of America's anti-abortion crowd.

Re:capitalistic bullshit (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107781)

I'm sorry, as an Israeli, it most definitely is a question of salary and as you point out, also resources. Politics have little if anything to do with it. There have been many articles each year in every Israeli newspaper about all of this including investigations, opinions, surveys, and more. Every time economics are the #1 factor - salary + research funding. Research institutions are not receiving the funding they once did, which is pathetic that you are getting access to less money now than 40+ years ago when things were far more unstable and the economy was a lot worse in Israel.

Stop sensationalizing; the way western media covers Israel, you'd think there is daily fire fights in the streets of every city in some kind of sandy desert and there's some kind of mass genocide. None of it is true and it is not in the mind of these academics at all because it would be contrary to what it means to be an Israeli and grow up Israeli.

Also, America's response has not always been as you describe. America was isolationist for various periods, and even now, it is still not easy to get citizenship or a proper visa legally unless you have a sponsor. It's not so hard at the university level to come as a guest, but it is definitely not easy to ensure you can stay long-term unless you have an employer that cares enough to help you. I have American citizenship, but my Canadian wife who is a professor with 3 degrees could barely get a work visa and would have had to wait many years to get something more permanent. You would think for Canada it would be easy, but without various technicalities, it was annoying to just get anything other than a temporary visa for her because she was in a less attractive field.

Smokscreen (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45107727)

The US is and has been trashing it's learning and culture - and bankrupting it's students - for most of a decade, or two. It has now decided to leech and destroy the rest of the world's, too.

US and UK universities are now actively campaigning abroad, intensely, with lots of advertising, theatrics and events, to bring in foreign students - and cash. Some UK universities are said to be kept economically afloat on "Chinese" (oriental) students alone. The same is probably true elsewhere. Local enrollment isn't what it used to be. And mostly young women?

There's more at work than the 3 phrases US businessen needed in the last century : "What's the best? How much does it cost? Buy!".

Getting those world brains together would be a good thing, if the whole patent-taboo orwellian big brother thing didn't keep them apart and isolated. Even if it is already rather paleo-orwellian in their own homelands.

Intellectual resources (1)

Reliable Windmill (2932227) | 1 year,10 days | (#45107869)

This has been the U.S game for a long time, importing and collecting the intellectual resources of the world. And god knows they need it, we all know the sad state of U.S public education, and how colleges and universities to a significant degree seem to revolve around "getting wasted, bro", not to mention how American culture is excellent at keeping many Americans young, dumb, aggressive and ignorant. It would be interesting to know how the U.S would have fared had they not been fighting to attract the intellectual elite of the world. This pooling of intellectual wealth in the U.S just furthers an already poor global balance, and countries need to invest in motivating their educated people to stay to work and contribute to better their own country, rather than the U.S.
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