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NSA Scraping Buddy Lists and Address Books From Live Internet Traffic

Unknown Lamer posted 1 year,10 days | from the deep-packet-inspection-for-fun-and-profit dept.

Communications 188

Charliemopps writes that the Washington Post reports "The NSA is collecting hundreds of millions of contact lists from all over the world, many of them belonging to Americans. The intercept them from instant messaging services as they move across global data links. The NSA is gathering contact lists in large numbers that amount to a sizable fraction of the world's e-mail and instant messaging accounts." According to the leaked document (original as a PDF), the NSA is intercepting some chat protocols and at least IMAP, and then analyzing the data for buddy list information and inbox contents.

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Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (4, Insightful)

Noryungi (70322) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130735)

Host your own email server on a Pi. Encrypt everything. Go back to Fidonet or even to snail mail.

I am in the process of doing just that.

Fidonet (2)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130825)

I do not even know if the Fidonet infrastructure is still working or not.

Yes, I was a sysop back then.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (1)

oobayly (1056050) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130855)

It's not a bad idea - I'm pondering doing the same (albeit with a more powerful machine) for a range of domains I have. The reason being it's a bitch to migrate the email when changing providers rather than NSA monitoring.

However, it's a problem when you ISP implements carrier-grade NAT or doesn't allow incoming connections on TCP 25.You could use their MX server and then use something like fetchmail to pull down new mail (we used to do that before hosting our own MX server), but that of course leaves you relying on a 3rd party which will drop their trousers on request.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (1)

Fjandr (66656) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130915)

Then use submission ports if your ISP blocks 25. Most ISPs I've found don't block them, even if they block port 25.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (1)

oobayly (1056050) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131017)

I was under the impression that to receive inbound public mail, TCP 25 had to be used.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (1)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130987)

Why would that help when they're intercepting the email traffic itself?

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131037)

Automatic encryption of all mails, isn't that what he is suggesting?

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (1)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131081)

Yeah, I can't brain today.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131495)

That doesn't encrypt the recipient addresses...

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (3, Insightful)

rasmusbr (2186518) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131057)

Great idea, now all we need is to found a nation based on Raspberry Pi ownership and/or the ability to host your own servers for email and other communication, outlaw communication with foreigners, and then we should be all set!

The world could really use someone or some corporation with lots of resources and no ties to government to fund, and fund indefinitely, an effort at remaking the internet from the ground up. I just can't think of who or what that someone is.

Trying to do it yourself is pointless.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (1)

camperdave (969942) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131231)

Won't help. The data still traverses the NSA monitored infrastructure. Unless you are laying your own cable, your data's being intercepted.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (1)

Pi1grim (1956208) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131255)

And that, kids, is what encryption is for.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (2)

Wycliffe (116160) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131245)

I agree that doing it yourself is pointless but not hopeless. The internet has lost it's goal
of routing around failures. We should try to move to a decentralized internet. The simplest
and easiest way to do this is with sharing wifi routers. Most people in a city can see
multiple wifi routers. If the routers all talked to each other and shared bandwidth then you
have dozens of paths to the internet. This could even be expanded to cars. While
driving on the highway there is typically a string of cars stretching from your car all the way
back to your house. If each of these cars had a router in it you could just hop from car to
car all the way back to your house or all the way across the nation on any major highway.
We need to work on decentralized grid routers to completely remove the internet from any
one entity's control.

Snail mail won't help (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131135)

It's also well known that all metadata of all snail mail packages are recorded, logged, tracked, whatever. On top of that, the ability to open, check contents, and re-seal packages when so desired is there and you'd be hard pressed to detect it in most cases. Snail mail won't help.

Re:Snail mail won't help (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131413)

You can send snail mail to "Current Occupant" and withhold a return a address.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (2)

camperdave (969942) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131183)

Go back to Fidonet...

Riiight! Because the NSA can't decode modem traffic.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131335)

Sneakernet is an option, but then that runs up against the whole "no reasonable expectation of privacy in public" thing.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131517)

Wear a ski mask when you go outside.

Re:Raspberry Pi to the rescue! (2)

sl4shd0rk (755837) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131349)

Encrypt everything.

Indeed. Self-signed SSL certs are going to take on a whole new purpose now since the NSA doesn't hold your CA cert.

Those are pitiful suggestions (1)

Burz (138833) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131699)

For one thing, your email domain is unlikely to be taken seriously by existing email providers if you run a server from your home (and consumer ISP plans won't let you do this anyway); running it from a hosting provider would hardly improve privacy even with encryption. The call to "encrypt everything" would, for email, imply using PGP which leaves the 'who' and subject parts of the messages unencrypted.

If you want to run something really effective against corporate-state mass surveillance, then go for this. [geti2p.net] Everything is encrypted end-to-end by default, and its designed to carry everything from P2P like bittorrent to decentralized email based on DHT. It even runs on Android!

Foreigners (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130741)

I am so sick of hearing this idea that just because I am not a citizen of the USA then somehow I have less rights to privacy.

Re:Foreigners (3, Insightful)

Noryungi (70322) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130751)

Then do something about it and stop using US-based web services.

Re:Foreigners (5, Insightful)

Aguazul2 (2591049) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130851)

Then do something about it and stop using US-based web services.

Also European and Australian ones, in fact any web services that are in a country where there is an NSA-affiliated tap point, or where your traffic crosses one of those countries. In fact, if you are a 'foreigner' best disconnect completely and go live in a cave -- but not one dug by the CIA because then you're a terrorist and we will send drones.

Re:Foreigners (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131085)

Then do something about it and stop using US-based web services.

Also European and Australian ones, in fact any web services that are in a country where there is an NSA-affiliated tap point, or where your traffic crosses one of those countries. In fact, if you are a 'foreigner' best disconnect completely and go live in a cave -- but not one dug by the CIA because then you're a terrorist and we will send drones.

"European" is much too broad stroke here, there are major differences between the countries. If you host online services in Norway fx law enforcement have to go through normal official court proceedings and get a specific court order for a provider to have to give them any information on the customer covered by the court order. No blanket access, they have to go through normal due process in each case, there are no special laws that circumvent this. They/NSA could of course still tap at the network level at some point, but use services that use encryption and that is much less likely.

Re:Foreigners (1, Insightful)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130881)

They're not snooping on one, specific service at a point in the US. They're looking at any appropriate traffic that happens to pass through the US. Any information that passes through the US must be considered compromised by the NSA.

Re:Foreigners (1)

morgauxo (974071) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131047)

Define appropriate

Re:Foreigners (1)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131087)

Email and chat protocols, per the article.

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131211)

Carried on the Internet.

Re:Foreigners (1)

camperdave (969942) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131239)

As per the NSA dictionary "Appropriate traffic" is "Any traffic that traverses a network".

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130893)

You must have forgotten that this is happening all over Europe too and in many countries in Europe they are forbidden by law from even informing their user base that they providing information to their governments.

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130995)

You must have forgotten that this is happening all over Europe too and in many countries in Europe they are forbidden by law from even informing their user base that they providing information to their governments.

Citation needed, which countries you are referring to?

Re:Foreigners (0)

V for Vendetta (1204898) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131139)

Much to my dismay, my own country, Germany [arstechnica.com] .

Re:Foreigners (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131201)

The leadership of NATO will never let their governments escape the NSA. The best that will happen is a very public telco rebuild. From one hub 'known' (Frankfurt) to link to the NSA, new domestic only hubs will open as national 'data' protecting loops. The contractors will have any new systems wired back to the NSA from day one.
"Comms giant pushes anti-spy network"
http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20131014-52385.html [thelocal.de]
http://www.dw.de/telekom-hopes-to-stave-off-nsa-snoops-by-keeping-internet-traffic-in-germany/a-17154274 [www.dw.de]
http://rt.com/news/deutsche-telekom-internet-spies-176/ [rt.com]

Re:Foreigners (4, Informative)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130933)

The article explicitly says this does not appear to be based on the co-operation of US providers but rather international fibre taps - presumably placed or operated by compliant intelligence agencies that are merely extensions of the NSA. The US might be a ringleader in this activity, but other countries have out of control security services as well. After a long period of political silence in the UK we finally got some discussion this week, after senior cabinet members who served on the national security committees admitted they had no clue anything like that was happening. Cameron's response was priceless, he said the agencies would have told them about it if they'd asked!

Re:Foreigners (2)

gl4ss (559668) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130983)

doesn't help when US has taken the liberty of acting like it's legal for them to hack and intercept services that are abroad(even if they themselves declared such actions as comparable to war/terrorism).

personally I think the rest of the world should just declare US services as free targets for hacking(and subsequently deny any extradition requests or information requests for such activities). oh and don't pretend there's not economic impact from hacking ceo's and politicians - and thanks to piss poor inside security and audits inside NSA the NSA operatives are free to play with that information on the stock market or sell it so others can play with it.

Re:Foreigners (1)

morgauxo (974071) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131061)

Even if they are doing the same themselves?

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131353)

Isn't that like saying "I will only email people from my state because I don't want my traffic going to other states?" They've got your traffic either way.

Re:Foreigners (3, Insightful)

MickyTheIdiot (1032226) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130757)

You have *less* rights to privacy than a USA citizen? In this case of privacy is there a number less than zero?

The USA citizen that has no special associations is a peon, pal. We're in the same boat.

Re:Foreigners (3, Insightful)

Noryungi (70322) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130779)

I guess your privacy zero when the Secret Police comes up to your door to arrest you in the middle of the night.

This has happened before, in Europe and in many other countries around the globe.

Funny thing is, the Secret Police was often financed, equipped and trained by the CIA.

Re:Foreigners (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131195)

Drama queen, are you? The CIA wasn't created until 1947, and it was nothing like it is now until about 20 years ago when black budgets went their way.

Re:Foreigners (1)

kilfarsnar (561956) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131603)

Drama queen, are you? The CIA wasn't created until 1947, and it was nothing like it is now until about 20 years ago when black budgets went their way.

Really? The Iranian revolution was in 1953 and the CIA trained the SAVAK, the Shah's secret police.

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130847)

Your country's laws ostensibly protect you in some nominal way. That at least gives you some recourse. As a dirty foreigner, your country's laws don't give two shits about how much of my privacy is infringed.

We caused it. (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131003)

You have *less* rights to privacy than a USA citizen? In this case of privacy is there a number less than zero?

The USA citizen that has no special associations is a peon, pal. We're in the same boat.

We caused it. We elected people that wrote the PATRIOT Act and gave those powers to the NSA.

We are the ones who get all side tracked when a politician says "Look! Some gay people want to get married!" Or look "Abortion!" Or "We need security and we need to make adjustments to our Liberty!" ""If you are against it, you are helping the terrorists!""

And assholes like Hannity and Rush jump on board and their listener/lemmings just nod their heads and parrot the same things and the politicians go along because they want to keep their powerful, cushy, overpaid jobs. And the terror-industrial-military complex rakes it in!

And in the meantime shit like this sails on through.

And we got this mess in Congress right now and it's our fault. We allowed the lunatic fringe to ( less than 0.5% of our population) to fuck it up for everyone else.

As it stands, the Republican party will never - ever get another vote from me - ever. They are too nutty and they need to dissolve.

Re:We caused it. (1)

BobMcD (601576) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131209)

Let's not presume that this has anything to do with parties, lest we fall into the same 'Look!' trap you described above.

Tell me, if this be a Republican problem, what was the Democrats response to it? Tell me about how they cleaned it up once they took control of the white house and the Senate.

Truth be told, your best bet for seeing this fought is through the Tea Party - simply because they'd rather not pay the taxes to fund it.

Re:We caused it. (2)

Bucc5062 (856482) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131359)

No, I don't hire a lunatic to clean up a mess. The Tea Party (as I see them separate from the Republican Party) carries a lot of weight for what has happened in our recent political environment. The RNC would be best served by forcing a split or not recognizing members that associate with the Tea Party. Let them attempt to stand outside the power structure the RNC has built.

As to the Democratic response, it has always been the case that the Democratic party was more fractious, less prone to lock step voting then the republican party members. When the Democrats held power, it was Blue Dog Democrats that stopped the ability of the DP to fully implement their programs. Single payer may have made it through, but for southern dixiecrats that would not support such a bill. Such is democratic politics.

Still, I'd rather a party who attempts to represent their people, then one who primarily represents their backers and cannot have independent voting on issues. At times I was close to supporting some republicans (John McCain in 2000 for example). Later I am glad I listened to my gut for he, like most of his colleagues were blowing smoke to hid their true nature...opportunists.

Re:We caused it. (1)

BobMcD (601576) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131435)

I'll use plain language -

The parties are a ploy to fool the weak minded.

Rather like the illusion in the Emerald City. Never mind the man behind the curtain.

Re:We caused it. (1)

Bucc5062 (856482) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131607)

Of course they are, them who controls the masses, controls the wealth and the power. That is not lost on me. Still they have to work with the system they created. A party sets the tone for how the masses can be controlled. The problem is that when the public apparatus gets out of control it can break things and can do so without discrimination. Think mob mentality gone wild (Lord of the Flies). We would be better off with a party that governs from the left and allows moments of radical right commentary to help adjust law then a radicalized public leadership that incites primal actions instead of conservative, thoughtful ideas to governing.

Stop using plain language, it does not suit you and really obfuscates your point.

Re:We caused it. (1)

BobMcD (601576) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131697)

I'm not aware how you'd have any idea what suits me and what does not.

And you're still laboring under the delusion that Obama's policies were not identical to Bush's, by way of implying there's a 'tone' to be set.

Unless 'tone' is nothing more than 'spin'.

Re:We caused it. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131269)

So in your reality everything bad that happens is the result of those "nutty" Republicans? Did someone not tell you that the Democrats controlled the White House and both chambers of congress for 2 years? And that instead of dismantling the NSA powers, they chose to expand them even further? And that the most egregious NSA overreaches actually occurred during the Obama adminstation?

Re:We caused it. (1)

camperdave (969942) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131281)

We elected people that wrote the PATRIOT Act and gave those powers to the NSA.

Did you? I thought those were artifacts of the Military Industrial Complex hard at work; things above and beyond the power and control of the electorate and elected officials.

Re:Foreigners (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130789)

Somehow, those that defend the idea foreigners have no human rights in the United States don't seem to understand that if it were true, they would also have no rights when visiting other countries.

Re:Foreigners (1)

morgauxo (974071) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131069)

Many of them never visit other countries.

Re:Foreigners (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130811)

*cough* XKeyscore is a joint program with Australia and New Zealand.

*cough XKeyscore has been used extensively by the German intelligence agences BND and BfV (that's foreign AND domestic intelligence agencies).

But tell us again all about how big bad America is the only one doing this.

Re:Foreigners (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131095)

The problem is the US domestic drag net and lack of Constitutional protections. The weak telco laws of other countries are internal issues. If they collect all their telco data at one point and gift to the NSA, thats not a reflection on US Constitutional protections. Other counties give their citizens data away to the USA for many reasons.
They might get better rates on US military upgrades. Their troops get to take part in more advanced projects.
Their experts get something back over the years on unrelated areas of interest.
Their general staff like the travel, US tax payer funded equipment and meetings.
Australia and New Zealand both were signed on early and are addicted to the US data streams. Germany hopes to get something back if they just offer all their data for a few more decades.
The other aspect is the trade deals. With the US gov pushing the privacy and security of buying into US cloud products. Its hard to legally say no.
The NSA could have had it all if they just stayed away from domestic US surveillance as they always trained their staff to.

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130859)

Um. Why should the US gov't care about your privacy? You are not a citizen and aren't provided any special rights by the US gov't. I don't log into Chinese, French, German, or Russian websites and whine about their surveillance activities (pro-tip: they're all doing it too)

The intelligence agencies mandate is to conduct surveillance. This isn't news. The problem arises when they over-reach that mandate and violate the rights provided by our own Constitution. At that point, the citizens of this country should be raising their hands and saying: "Uh...guys? Whose side are you on?".

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131053)

Why should the US gov't care about your privacy?

Because they (pretend they) fight for human rights worldwide?

Re:Foreigners (1)

gl4ss (559668) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131083)

the constitution - if read by anyone who considers all men to born equal - doesn't limit the freedoms and rights to american citizens.

however when they wrote it back in the day they didn't consider themselves to blatantly have any authority over rest of the world.

uh and why should the usa care about international treaties and declarations about crime, property, basic human rights and all that? uh? maybe so that they would have some expectation that the rest of the word cares about those treaties.

Re:Foreigners (3, Interesting)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131121)

The US government doesn't have any special obligations with regards to not stabbing every non-American in the world with a pencil, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable for them to do so.

Re: Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131293)

Also, they don't stab with pencils.

Re:Foreigners (1)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131655)

The US government doesn't have any special obligations with regards to not stabbing every non-American in the world with a pencil,

Pardon me for not performing an exhaustive search, but I'm pretty sure that it would be a violation of some treaty or other for the U.S. to go stab every non-American in the world with a pencil. So there is an obligation, though not one directly sourced from the Constitution.

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131347)

Um. Why should the US gov't care about your privacy? You are not a citizen and aren't provided any special rights by the US gov't.

Because the US likes to tell the world they are a prime example of freedom, democracy and human rights that other countries should follow. If the US say something like that and at the same time spy on the people they're adressing on an unprecedented scale, that somehow makes them look like hypocrites. And don't forget many of those spied upon are supposed to be friends and allies.

I don't log into Chinese, French, German, or Russian websites and whine about their surveillance activities (pro-tip: they're all doing it too)

Not logging into websites isn't enough. Things like this [theregister.co.uk] happen too. Whether or not any of those countries can collect information about you does not only depend on you, but also on busineses and other people you have dealings with, even indirectly.

Re:Foreigners (1)

lightknight (213164) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130875)

Well...from a realpolitik viewpoint...you do. Countries are only interested in protecting their own (f*ck the world...and their allies), and even then, only so much as is necessary to stay in power.

Allow me to explain this to you in more pragmatic terms: if your country could, with reasonable effort, turn everyone outside its borders into slaves, sell them and their children on the open market, as well as anyone inside its own borders (up to 50% + 1 to keep itself in power 'democratically), it totally would. Buying and selling people's information, 'social' justice without any sort of reason...these are simply preludes to what is already here.

Re:Foreigners (5, Funny)

s122604 (1018036) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130895)

You sound angry. I'm glad my NSA is keeping tabs on you, who knows what you are capable of.

Re:Foreigners (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130937)

As a Foreigner, load up your IM with US citizens. 100's of them :) Sit back, be politically active and as you make watch lists, your IM list follows you.

Re:Foreigners (1)

GoChickenFat (743372) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131007)

It's because your a user of technology. Non-citizens are just the excuse used by the US government when we know full well we're all losing our rights to privacy. In fact, I'd suggests non-citizens have more privacy. You're country may not subject you to constant government forced data collection in the form of "insurance" - medical, home, auto, etc. or law enforcement...whatever no privacy exists anywhere anymore.

Re:Foreigners (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131027)

You can break most USA laws and get away with it (assuming they aren't also illegal in your own country), so why do you expect USA protections to protect you? I have no expectations that Congo would do anything to protect me nor do I expect them to kidnap me for not paying any of their taxes. However if I transported goods through their land then I'd expect some amount of government would be involved.

Besides, your government spies on me and then trades that info with my government. You have whatever rights your government decides. Take things up with your government before going after others. You could push for a mandate that all external internet access goes through some government portal to scrub all personal data.

Re:Foreigners (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131029)

Agree to delay the individual mandate, in exchange for a repeal of the debt-ceiling laws.

From US Government Agencies? You certainly do!

Just like *I* have no reasonable expectation of privacy from the GCHQ, the German spy agency, the Russian one, or any other foreign government's espionage apparat.

Or do you really believe that foreigners in foreign countries are bound by YOUR laws?

Re:Foreigners (1)

SirGarlon (845873) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131379)

As a citizen of the USA, I am at least as sick of hearing that as you are. It ain't true, and the US Supreme Court has said so several times.

Re:Foreigners (1)

intermodal (534361) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131679)

I'm sick of hearing that just because there are evil people in the world we must all be treated as suspect. There is no difference in how the NSA treats you as a foreigner and us as citizens. Only in how they describe it to the press.

Isn't it ironic (0, Troll)

Angturil (1276488) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130803)

That when a government department actually does its job, and does it well, everyone seems upset. I want my intelligence community to be competent, get all the information we need to protect our interests, and do it well, and the NSA has done this and then some. Their only mistake was perhaps a lack of internal security. Instead of criticism, they should be commended for a job well done. The world is not a safe place, and information is power. I want the good guys to win. I'm a Canadian, but I support the NSA, and the job it does to protect American (and indirectly) Canadian interests.

Re:Isn't it ironic (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130849)

Shush, you're interrupting the groupthink.

Re:Isn't it ironic (4, Insightful)

durin (72931) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130899)

"I want the good guys to win."

And you think the NSA and the US government are the good guys?

Agh! The stupid! It burns!

Re:Isn't it ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131557)

You must be new here :)

Re:Isn't it ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131637)

Who do you think are the good guys? The EU? Russia? China? The UN? (Sorry, couldn't help but verge into the realm of comedy.) World powers only, please; a toothless good guy is just a nonentity.

Re:Isn't it ironic (4, Insightful)

lightknight (213164) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130913)

You seem to assume that the choices are mutually exclusive: Soviet KGB-style interrogations and intelligence, or total Anarchy.

I ask you, why did we even fight the Cold War, and win it, if we were just going to embrace everything at a later time?

Re:Isn't it ironic (2)

ATMAvatar (648864) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131393)

Maybe the goal was to put the KGB out of business so we could hire its agents as consultants on the cheap.

Re:Isn't it ironic (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130919)

no their mistake was to become one of the very things they where supposed to protect the you from, an abusive conspiratorial bunch of nut-cases that don't think they have to answer even to the politicians let alone the people.

Re:Isn't it ironic (1)

coofercat (719737) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130929)

A little too much efficiency leads to a police state, or a surveillance state, or a security state.

Re:Isn't it ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45130955)

the NSA has done this and then some.

And it's exactly the "and then some" part that is problematic. Especially since that "some" is actually a lot.

Re:Isn't it ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131045)

The world is not a safe place, and information is power. I want the good guys to win. I'm a Canadian, but I support the NSA, and the job it does to protect American (and indirectly) Canadian interests.

What exactly makes you think it's going to do anything to protect Canadian interests? The NSA has already been proven to use the information it gathers for industrial and economic espionage, even against those countries the US considers allies.

The fact is the NSA spying has done irreparable damage to the US intelligence community, and is going to do much more economic damage as countries and corporations stop trusting and using the US for operations, manufacturing or banking.

The apparently infinitely small amount of safety that this spying has granted the US in no way matches the massive damage it's going to do to our economy and our freedom.

Re:Isn't it ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131063)

That when a government department actually does its job, and does it well, everyone seems upset.

You probably also cheer on policemen who beat up and kill demonstrators. The constitution protects private communication. It is not the job of any government department to spit on the constitution and rip it to shreds. Or if it is the job, then the department needs to be put under close supervision until its job description agrees with the constitution and/or get dissolved.

As it stands, the NSA is a terrorist organisation that has duped government and congress into paying them taxpayers' money in order to abolish the taxpayers' rights. They actively thwart and sabotage congressional and government oversight and consider themselves unaccountable. They kidnap and kill people without due process and oversight, and have no qualms killing innocent bystanders in the process. They engage in blackmail and turn the court system into a mockery by feeding it with illegally obtained or fabricated evidence withholding its actual origin.

They are the largest terrorist organisation ever paid by the U.S., and the U.S. has a history of funding a lot of terrorist organizations.

Re:Isn't it ironic (5, Insightful)

jigawatt (1232228) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131131)

I'm a Canadian, but I support the NSA, and the job it does to protect American (and indirectly) Canadian interests.

"But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

Cloud Service Security = Oxymoron (2)

mrthoughtful (466814) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130871)

Yes. Posting all your contacts on the Internet is open to breaches of privacy (regardless of zero-day exploits).

Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft - all of them kowtow to the NSA, the CIA, the FBI. Why?
Because in return their lobbyists get to bend the ears of the legislators.

Why is anyone surprised by any of this?

Re:Cloud Service Security = Oxymoron (1)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130973)

Who said anything about cloud services?

Re:Cloud Service Security = Oxymoron (1)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131197)

If recent revelations are any indication, it's not like the people who didn't have lobbyists had much choice in the matter either.

Most transparent administration ever (5, Insightful)

GoChickenFat (743372) | 1 year,10 days | (#45130969)

I guess "most transparent" actually referred to us and not the government.

Bandwidth? (1)

bornagainpenguin (1209106) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131021)

It's been an open secret for years now that the branches of the federal government tend to "bury" their budget inside of other allocations to hide them from outsiders, supposedly explaining the existence of $500 hammers and $1,000 toilets. Is the NSA also doing this, but with bandwidth rather than dollars? It might explain how suddenly the various ISPs are up in arms about bandwidth hogs and how a small percent are using up the majority of the bandwidth available on the network....

Re:Bandwidth? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131401)

The NSA grew and shaped digital thinking on US domestic telco networks and world wide interconnects. There are no historical usage "bumps" for the NSA inside its own network - the USA.
The only unhappy time for the US and UK was a very short period in the 1950's when the Soviet Union strangely used onetime pads and kept its communications chatter down.
Apart of the odd break down or political issues with NZ or the UK the US has always seemed to keep pace by setting telco standards before bandwidth issues became an issue.
Its easy when the world has to catch up with your systems years later.
The trunk lines are limited in number and the telcos, software and hardware makers tame.
As sudden break downs in bad weather or flooding shows, US public telcos dont really overbuild or diversify their networks much. Just massive local branding duplication in some profitable regions and long isolated interconnect spans. The dream of any surveillance state.
The classic hardened military lines and NSA regional centres would be massively overbuilt with bandwidth wrt the basic public networks they log.

Oh, even belonging to AMERICANS! (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131073)

Now that is an awful thing to do. It may violate the rights of the most important people in the world!
(News-overlay with rotating globe, North-America in full focus, all other continents shrunk down and barely recognizeable...)

Please do only spy on towelheads, frogeaters and sausage-lederhosen- people. And the mostly unknown tiny, untidy, yellow oder brown/black rest...the ones with the banana-skirts, y'know?

Clapper... (3, Interesting)

surfdaddy (930829) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131141)

Clapper was the guy who lied to Congress, saying that the NSA was NOT collecting data or spying on US citizens.

What the FUCK has happened to this country?

Re:Clapper... (4, Informative)

bigtrike (904535) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131243)

For people who aren't aware:
"I responded in what I thought was the most truthful, or least untruthful manner by saying no."

http://www.nbcumv.com/mediavillage/networks/nbcnews/pressreleases?pr=contents/press-releases/2013/06/09/nbcnewsexclusiv1370799482417.xml [nbcumv.com]

Re:Clapper... (2)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131633)

Under his programming it was the most truthful response available:

The First Law of Polticians: A politician must obey the will of the the agencies under his oversight.
The Second Law: A politician must obey the will of his lobbyists, except where this conflicts with the first law.
The Third Law: A politican must obey the will of the people he represents, except where this conflicts with the first and second laws.

Re:Clapper... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131301)

What the fuck happened is people actually thought there was a difference between the R's and the D's and got caught up rooting for 'political' football teams to realize that the end goals of each are pretty much the same with a few shades of differences sprinkled in here in there. Sure the retoric people buy into devides everyone, but in the end has any thing reallly halted in terms of total government invasion of privacy. A lot of these NSA spying programs sprung up out of 9/11 and Bush and have only expanded under Obama. There is no difference these people hate you. There are already so many laws on the books that can ensare just about anyone if they don't like you. You are to be a good sheep and not step out of line for whatever the government wants or you will be handled, they are collecting enough info to black mail you and ruin your life and take you away under one of the many sick laws in this country. Look at civil forfieture, its legalized theft with no due process or even probable cause need, they stole some small grocery's store owner's $350,000 business account for no apparent reason and he has not be charged with a crime under civial forfeiture, and the war on drugs brought you this unconsituational theft under Regan.

Clapper is off the hook. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131543)

I mean, who should prosecute him for perjury? Fast and Furious Attorney General Eric Holder? Eric Holder already has examined his own repeated perjury before congress about his own unconstitutional grab of executive powers and concluded that it's nothing to write home about.

You won't bring justice to other corrupt government officials via the corrupt Department of Justice. Least of all for perjury or overstepping of their mandate or bullshitting congress or evading oversight.

Re:Clapper... (1)

denis-The-menace (471988) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131659)

This is what's happening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=A3BHujm3cpY [youtube.com]

TL;DW: The rich are extracting trillions of $ from us all. Rep. and Dem. parties, Wall Street and regulators are *all* complicit. (How do you think Bernie Madoff got so far?)

The NSA is just helping them figuring out who's life to ruin before the whistle get blown.

But it's only the metadata! (2)

Gothmolly (148874) | 1 year,10 days | (#45131213)

But they're only tracking who is talking to whom, so that's ok right? Right?

IMAP without SSL? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131327)

Which email providers offer IMAP without using SSL?

Or does the NSA perform MitM extensively (it would be easy to detect - just keep copies of the certificates forever and create a white-list of proven certificates)

Games (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,10 days | (#45131701)

The NSA plays their games, and we play ours.

Everybody need to to start useing and exchanging Dis-information. Send the NSA on a wild goose chase.

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