Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Mark Shuttleworth Complains About the 'Open Source Tea Party'

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the we-are-the-knights-who-say...-NIH! dept.

Ubuntu 419

slack_justyb writes "In a blog post, Mark Shuttleworth sends his congrats to the Ubuntu developers for the recent release of 13.10 and talks about 14.04's codename (Trusty Tahr). He also takes aim at what he calls 'The Open Source Tea Party.' He writes, 'Mir is really important work. When lots of competitors attack a project on purely political grounds, you have to wonder what their agenda is. At least we know now who belongs to the Open Source Tea Party ;)' He cites all the complaints about Mir and even calls out Lennart Poettering's systemd, who is the past has pointed out Canonical's tendency to favor projects they control. Shuttleworth continues, 'And to put all the hue and cry into context: Mir is relevant for approximately 1% of all developers, just those who think about shell development. Every app developer will consume Mir through their toolkit. By contrast, those same outraged individuals have NIH’d just about every important piece of the stack they can get their hands on most notably SystemD, which is hugely invasive and hardly justified. What closely to see how competitors to Canonical torture the English language in their efforts to justify how those toolkits should support Windows but not Mir. But we'll get it done, and it will be amazing.' However, not all has earned Mark's scorn. He even goes so far to show some love for Linux Mint: 'So yes, I am very proud to be, as the Register puts it, the Ubuntu Daddy. My affection for this community in its broadest sense – from Mint to our cloud developer audience, and all the teams at Canonical and in each of our derivatives, is very tangible today.'"

cancel ×

419 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Of course... (5, Insightful)

stephenmac7 (2700151) | about a year ago | (#45173975)

You're referring to the fact that both groups like to stick to their values? I may not agree with one of them but they both have a very good record of not switching sides in the middle of a debate.

Re: Of course... (3, Insightful)

Nerdfest (867930) | about a year ago | (#45173999)

I think we'd (the Linux community) be a lot farther ahead if they got together and implemented a single solution that solved all the known requirements.

Re: Of course... (3, Insightful)

houstonbofh (602064) | about a year ago | (#45174079)

I think we'd (the Linux community) be a lot farther ahead if they got together and implemented a single solution that solved all the known requirements.

I agree. As long as it is mine, Mine, MINE, MINE DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!

The picking of that solution is the hard part.

Re: Of course... (5, Insightful)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about a year ago | (#45174119)

I think we'd (the Linux community) be a lot farther ahead if they got together and implemented a single solution that solved all the known requirements.

Except that people don't agree on what the requirements are. Your requirements are not the same as mine. Even people that share requirements may not agree on what is the best solution. Your proposal will likely lead to this [xkcd.com] .

Re: Of course... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174191)

Well, you could always get a set of people together representing one side of the conversation and force something through by a partisan vote that mandates a fine if everyone doesn't participate with solution then provide exemptions for your friends and corporations.

I mean look how well that worked with the real tea party.

Re: Of course... (-1, Offtopic)

Oligonicella (659917) | about a year ago | (#45174217)

Not the party that did that. You either knew that and wrote badly or you are trolling big.

We have. It's called the X Window System. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174355)

We've had the "single solution" you're talking about for many years now. It's called the X Window System and it works very well.

There are free and open source implementations that can run, or potentially could run, on just about any modern OS.

It is well-supported and well-understood by the community at large.

It is extremely flexible and extensible.

It performs extremely well (contrary to the incorrect claims of some very foolish people who never used it just fine on 25 MHz Sun and DEC workstations decades ago).

It can be used over a network without having to resort to hacks like VNC.

Just because some people feel the need to ignore this reality and instead focus on creating a half-assed clone of OS X doesn't mean that the rest of us won't continue to use what we've been using since the 1980s, and what will continue to work very well for us.

Re:We have. It's called the X Window System. (4, Interesting)

Martin Blank (154261) | about a year ago | (#45174615)

I agree that we have an existing solution, but to claim that there's no reason to replace it is to claim that no one can come up with something better. I agree that it's well-supported, that it can perform well, and that VNC is a hack. But I'm not sure that it's true that it's well-understood, especially given that people are far more likely to handle remote desktops with VNC than with X, even in environments where people largely use Linux instead of Windows. That prevalence of VNC over X suggests to me a serious gap in understanding of the community at large.

This leads me to think that while X is still a good solution, it may not be the best solution, and that's why I'm watching Wayland with curiosity.

Re: Of course... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174597)

I think we'd (the Linux community) be a lot farther ahead if they got together and implemented a single solution that solved all the known requirements.

I would completely disagree. Quite often there are compromises when you encounter things "in the real world" where you need to make some kind of trade off of some kind with almost any complex solution.... be that an operating system, a bridge, or an electrical circuit. There is often not an ideal solution which can be found from all known requirements, and it might even be healthy to have several competing "solutions" to the same thing.

Yes, it wastes some resources in the short term with regards to some minor duplication of effort, but in the long run these different approaches end up sometimes enabling other applications and situations to be developed that otherwise couldn't be done with a monolithic approach.

Besides, you are also talking about people who have egos and personalities which can sometimes get into conflict in spite of the best efforts and most charismatic leaders who inspire most people to work together. Letting disgruntled people to run off and start their own project might fail, but often they do succeed as well and on a rare occasion they even surpass the original group. Why work to prevent that from happening at all?

Re: Of course... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174657)

I think we'd (the Linux community) be a lot farther ahead if they got together and implemented a single solution that solved all the known requirements.

You mean, Microsoft Windows? It works on PCs, servers, tablets, and phones. Over 1 billion devices run Windows.

Re:Of course... (5, Insightful)

Lord Kano (13027) | about a year ago | (#45174019)

People with flexible ethics are often inconvenienced by those with principles that they don't compromise.

LK

Re:Of course... (5, Insightful)

Daemonik (171801) | about a year ago | (#45174205)

People with uncompromisable principles are often an inconvenience to everyone.

Re:Of course... (4, Insightful)

Oligonicella (659917) | about a year ago | (#45174235)

Not nearly as much as those who change with the breeze.

Re:Of course... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174315)

Possibly, but still far worse than the other vast quantity of humanity who don't change with the breeze but are willing to compromise.

Re:Of course... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174347)

Without people with uncompromisable principles it's the law of the jungle, and most of us will soon be reduced to serfdom again where might and money makes right.

Shut up and stop trying to sound clever without actually being it. As the last few years clearly have shown, we desperately need more inconvenient people.

Re:Of course... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174095)

He's using a tactic that demeans and dehumanizes his opponents. It is quite common in politics, but now apparently must be used as a litmus test in the open source world as well.

Stupidity deserves to be dehumanized. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174151)

Many of the problems with certain major open source software projects today happened solely because people were afraid to say, GODDAMN IT, THIS IS A FUCKING STUPID IDEA!

The GNOME project is probably the best example. In a few short years it went from being the premiere open source desktop environment (GNOME 2) to a total cesspool of rancid, rotting Mac OS X ripoff and design idiocy (GNOME 3). Today it is unusable.

While people did speak up, nobody really took a strong stance against the bad decisions. Nobody with any power in the community and project loudly and proudly said, GODDAMN IT, THIS IS A FUCKING STUPID IDEA! each time one of the GNOME crew suggested or implemented something idiotic.

Had the stupidity of GNOME 3 been dehumanized early, and shown to be the scam that it is, the Linux community as a whole would have been better off.

So I don't necessarily agree with what Shuttleworth is saying here, but at least he's speaking his mind. If he sees something as stupid, then I hope to hell he does everything he can to dehumanize the opposition. That's the best way to deal with stupidity.

Re:Stupidity deserves to be dehumanized. (3, Insightful)

Oligonicella (659917) | about a year ago | (#45174255)

"That's the best way to deal with stupidity."

Erm, no, it is not and your very post is an excellent example of why. You come across as an adolescent ranting about people who don't do things their way.

Dehumanization is done by those who don't think their idea can stand on its own. Often they are correct.

Re:Stupidity deserves to be dehumanized. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174415)

What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read to the end of the GP's comment? It obviously says, and I quote:

So I don't necessarily agree with what Shuttleworth is saying here, but at least he's speaking his mind. If he sees something as stupid, then I hope to hell he does everything he can to dehumanize the opposition. That's the best way to deal with stupidity.

That's a very tolerant and mature attitude, if you ask me. Your allegations of "adolescent ranting" don't apply to the GP, but rather to what you have written.

The GP is right. Dehumanization of stupidity, like what you're exhibiting, is critical to do.

Re:Stupidity deserves to be dehumanized. (2)

allo (1728082) | about a year ago | (#45174289)

Maybe. But KDE 4.0 was total crap, too. But it had a nice new foundation, and big ideas. with 4.2 they were usable again, with 4.4 they started taking real adavantage of their new frameworks.

akonadi and nepomuk are still both PITA despite having great concepts, but the rest works like a charm. So, doing something new is not the problem. Doing something wrong, is the problem.

Re:Of course... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174111)

You're referring to the fact that both groups like to stick to their values? I may not agree with one of them but they both have a very good record of not switching sides in the middle of a debate.

I thought this was a story about Theo de Raad. Now i am just bored.

So (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45173977)

Mir is relevant for approximately 1% of all developers

So the rest of us might appreciate some hints as to wtf it is. Yeah, I know, Google exists so you don't have to write a decent summary.

Re:So (3, Funny)

allo (1728082) | about a year ago | (#45174301)

Its a german personal pronoun.

Re:So (1)

Kazoo the Clown (644526) | about a year ago | (#45174559)

Mir was a low-orbit space station, a modular design assembled by the USSR starting in 1986, then inherited by Russia after the dissolution of the USSR. After it was deemed no longer safe, it was pushed out of orbit and into the Earth's atmosphere where it burned up in 2001.

B-O-O H-O-O. (3, Interesting)

Wdomburg (141264) | about a year ago | (#45173987)

There is a reason why other distributions - even ones that had switched to Upstart - adopted systemd.

There is a reason why other distributions - and toolkit developers - opted against supporting Mir.

And it has nothing to do with the tea party.

Re:B-O-O H-O-O. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174077)

And it has nothing to do with the tea party.

It has to do with the Nazi party, of which Lennart Poettering is a member of. Do not forget the horror of Pulse Audio. Because you really needed the ability to play audio through another device on your network, but you might not be able to have audio work locally.

Re:B-O-O H-O-O. (1)

bakedbread (2009504) | about a year ago | (#45174321)

And it has nothing to do with the tea party.

It has to do with the Nazi party, of which Lennart Poettering is a member of. Do not forget the horror of Pulse Audio.

Ubuntu was happy to adopt pulseaudio and still uses it. (Yes, I know I'm violating godwin's law)

Re:B-O-O H-O-O. (1)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about a year ago | (#45174165)

There is a reason why other distributions - even ones that had switched to Upstart - adopted systemd.

I was under the impression that the majority of current distributions had adopted sytemd for little other reason than because Ubuntu had done so. Fortunately (for me, at least), Slackware is still an outlier in that Pat [slashdot.org] has (thus far) shunned both systemd and pulseaudio. And (guess what?) my Slackware boxes (!boxen) work perfectly well, regardless.

Re:B-O-O H-O-O. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174169)

yes but, for those don't know those reasons, care to elaborate?

$$ for software (-1)

NineNine (235196) | about a year ago | (#45174001)

I'm SO happy that I pay for software. I don't have to deal with all of this open source drama bullshit, and have to worry about when somebody's temper tantrum decides to end or radically change some software that I rely on for my business. My eyes glazed over halfway through the story summary, and I really don't care.

Re:$$ for software (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174081)

Trust me, it still happens, just behind closed doors but it at least stays internally. Problem with that is there is a hierarchy and you don't get the views from outsiders which can be refreshing in such instances.

Re:$$ for software (4, Insightful)

houstonbofh (602064) | about a year ago | (#45174087)

I'm SO happy that I pay for software. I don't have to deal with all of this open source drama bullshit, and have to worry about when somebody's temper tantrum decides to end or radically change some software that I rely on for my business. My eyes glazed over halfway through the story summary, and I really don't care.

I agree with you in concept, but how does Windows 8 fit in with that world view?

Re:$$ for software (2)

jones_supa (887896) | about a year ago | (#45174101)

Saying something like that is politically incorrect in Slashdot... basically the atmosphere here is "OSS or GTFO". Personally, I like your comment as it balances things a bit here.

Re: $$ for software (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174121)

Windows 8

Re:$$ for software (1, Troll)

Austrian Anarchy (3010653) | about a year ago | (#45174131)

I'm SO happy that I pay for software. I don't have to deal with all of this open source drama bullshit, and have to worry about when somebody's temper tantrum decides to end or radically change some software that I rely on for my business. My eyes glazed over halfway through the story summary, and I really don't care.

I like your idea, but how do you manage to avoid Microsoft, Apple, and Oracle in your process?

Re:$$ for software (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174143)

How happy you are. You pay for software and do not even have freedom to choose whether you want a radical update or not. Since you are slaved you do not need to deal with all the drama bullshit you loathe.

I neither really care. I least care about you. Have fun.

Re:$$ for software (1)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about a year ago | (#45174185)

My eyes glazed over halfway through the story summary, and I really don't care.

So the reason you are posting in this thread is to say "lookatme,lookatme!"

OK.

Re:$$ for software (2)

Crashmarik (635988) | about a year ago | (#45174187)

Remarkably naive.

That attitude works right up to the point where the people who make your vertical market apps decide, you have to much time and effort invested in data and training to go elsewhere. Then they own your business.

Re:$$ for software (2)

Daemonik (171801) | about a year ago | (#45174219)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good troll, good troll sir.

Love the smell of authoritAyrianism in the morning (3, Insightful)

smitty_one_each (243267) | about a year ago | (#45174003)

Smells like Alinsky's dirty socks.
Anybody not agreeing with the Ruling Class is now "Tea Party", huh?

Re:Love the smell of authoritAyrianism in the morn (4, Insightful)

Connie_Lingus (317691) | about a year ago | (#45174097)

hey...it's always good politics to strike while iron is still hot.

the media has force-fed the "Tea Party Is The Whole Problem" narrative into gullible mouths for a few weeks now...why waste all that free brain-washing on just the federal budget?

expect a few more metaphorical comparisons before things cool down...i'm sure they are coming

Re:Love the smell of authoritAyrianism in the morn (2)

smitty_one_each (243267) | about a year ago | (#45174167)

But will the Tea Party succeed in displacing "Da Jooz" as the go-to boogeymen?

Re:Love the smell of authoritAyrianism in the morn (0)

moronoxyd (1000371) | about a year ago | (#45174585)

Anybody not agreeing with the Ruling Class is now "Tea Party", huh?

That would suggest that Ubuntu/Canonical is the ruling class in the Linux world, which is certainly not true.

Re:Love the smell of authoritAyrianism in the morn (1)

smitty_one_each (243267) | about a year ago | (#45174605)

I'm after a more general-purpose observation here.

Yikes (4, Insightful)

cookYourDog (3030961) | about a year ago | (#45174011)

When you can turn a grass roots political party into a pejorative, you have succeeded. Well done American media and the powers that be.

I never thought that desire for fiscal responsibility, constitutional rule, and limited concentration of power would be masked over with such a contrived caricature. Then again, Americans who reveal widespread domestic spying by the government are called 'leakers' and 'traitors'. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

Re:Yikes (4, Informative)

TheNinjaroach (878876) | about a year ago | (#45174141)

Tea Party "values" were the primary cause of a 2-week federal government shutdown. A complete shutdown. That wasted $26 billion. All of those salaried federal employees are still going to be paid for all that sitting around we told them to do. That is not fiscal responsibility, but the Tea Party was right there in the very middle of it. There is no contrived caricature here, the Tea Party is a fucking joke.

Re:Yikes (1, Informative)

sumdumass (711423) | about a year ago | (#45174327)

lol.. I guess news and factual information doesn't get in your way at all. The government wasn't all shut down, less then 25% of it was because of the budget battle. The rest remained open because of a law passed after the previous shutdown that declared certain government services and departments essential to the security and safety of the country and that they would remain open for a period of time if congress fails to provide funding for them.

Also, of that 26 billion spent, a sizable portion was spent on going the extra steps of securing open air monuments that have remained open in previous shutdowns and forcing private businesses near parks to close down for the duration. Or in other words, part of the 26 billion was specifically induced in order to make the people pay for the actions in congress.

Now what is a fucking joke is when an aging war vet is locked out of the war memorials and faces arrest for trying to see what was erected in their honor while illegal immigrants are welcomed to the same area to protest the fact they haven't been granted citizenship for not following the rules to enter the country.

And your version of fiscal responsibility issues ignores the fact that the shut down was an attempt to save loads more then 26 billion. The only reason the $26 billion was wasted is because they failed to accomplish their goals. Had they been successful, the 26 billion would have been less then the amount saved.

Re:Yikes (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174519)

Jesus Christ, you hit all the talking points. Bravo sir.

Re:Yikes (-1)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#45174329)

Incorrect, the conflict between tea party values and those of others caused the shutdown. The tea party folks in the house passed legislation the senate and president were free to inact. They also opted for the shutdown.

Explain why do we even have a bicamera system that explicitly requires appropriations to start in a specific body if it was not the intention said body should be able to use that power as policy tool, a check on the other parts of government?

Unless you have been brainwashed by the Obama apologists the answer is obviously none.
Obama voted against lifting the debt celining when he was in the minority, he along with Reid and Pelosi used budget reconciliation to get healthcare passed in the first place. They are all using the exact same playbook and tactics. So if the Tea Party folks are bad actors for it so is basically everyone else in national office.

No I think you and the MSM just don't like their agenda and resort to name calling rather than debating their ideas.

Re:Yikes (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174389)

It's ignorant people like you that made Goebbels so very powerful.

1. Only 15% of the government was shutdown. Saying a "Complete Shutdown" is absolutely incorrect.
2. It was Obama and Reid that shut down the government. The Tea Party actually attempted many reasonable compromises. Originally they wanted Obamacare killed, then they just wanted the same year long extension that Obama gave to all his corporate and union buddies, and finally they just wanted the President, all aides, and Congress to be forced onto Obamacare with the rest of the country. Your boys in their ivory tower just held their breath and shook their heads at the idea that they would have to live under the same rules they are forcing everyone else on. There is no defense for this ... you people are the fucking joke.

Re:Yikes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174599)

The amount of fake money lost on the stock market was $24billion, not 26.

Re:Yikes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174147)

Later on we're having an Open Source Sex Party, you in?

Re:Yikes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174149)

When you can turn a grass roots political party into a pejorative, you have succeeded. Well done American media and the powers that be.

Unfortunately that does not come across. I don't think it is the media's fault that most representatives of the tea party are complete loons....

Re:Yikes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174155)

Advocating for default isn't fiscal responsibility.

Re:Yikes (3, Insightful)

blahplusplus (757119) | about a year ago | (#45174157)

"I never thought that desire for fiscal responsibility, constitutional rule, and limited concentration of power would be masked over with such a contrived caricature."

Except that's not what it's about, the tea party are willing dupes to D&R. If they were serious they would be voting third party. Not republican. The oligarchy just steers these people into the system and keeps them confused by taking advantage of their hopes.

Not only that, 'limited government' just means even more power for corporations (aka dictatorship and more corporate control of the law, less environmental regulations, more pollution, etc).

There's no good answer because people are immature and desperately uninformed. Nobody should be FOR polluting the fucking planet, but tea partiers definitely are because they don't understand historically GOVERNMENT has been the only force with the kind of power to go after serious polluters. The reason government is so bad is because it has been captured by corporate interests. Tea partiers if they had any intelligence at all would call off the stupid bs between left and right, form a coalition with others and vote both D&R out of office.

Re:Yikes (3, Insightful)

DarkOx (621550) | about a year ago | (#45174573)

Not only that, 'limited government' just means even more power for corporations (aka dictatorship and more corporate control of the law, less environmental regulations, more pollution, etc).

No it does not mean that. That is a lie the Democrats keeps telling to thwart the Republicans who are lying about trying to implement limited government. Limited government DISEMPOWERS corporations. It removes barriers to bring products into the market place which enables smaller cottage players into the game. We only have BIG corporations BECAUSE OF BIG GOVERNMENT. None of the mega banks would have survived the financial crisis without the BIG GOVERNMENT BAILOUTS; without BIG GOVERNMENT we would have nothing but SMALL BANKS today. Without FDIC we could never have had mega banks in the first place.

BIG Government and BIG corporations go hand in hand. Even look back in time. Which industries were most abusive: rail, mining, oil would be likely candidates and hmm which industries did the Government have the biggest roles in....

There are certainly some corner cases like shared resources "environmental regulation" where the free market alone might create some perverse and undesirable incentives, but in the vast vast majority of cases more regulation means more regulatory capture. It reduces competition making incumbent players more secure and lets them get bigger. When they get bigger they get more influence, which they in turn used to get more regulation that they might pretend not to like for public spectral but secretly support because they know it cements them in place.

Look at Amazon they are not even trying to hide it. They took advantage of the sales tax loop hole as a small org but once they go big suddenly they were for closing it because its going to make it easier for them stay on top with their specialty stores. Tax compliance is hard, unless you a big enough operation you can handle the overhead. So now its much much much harder for anyone to start up niche webstore and sell in multiple states, Amazon though just has to register a domain and change some style sheets. Funny how that works....

Re:Yikes (4, Interesting)

maztuhblastah (745586) | about a year ago | (#45174193)

I never thought that desire for fiscal responsibility, constitutional rule, and limited concentration of power would be masked over with such a contrived caricature.

They're not.

The "Tea Party", on the other hand, is -- as well they should be.

It started as a populist movement with some people advocating the things that you stated. And that was a noble goal. But like many "grassroots" movements, it was co-opted by powerful (read: rich) influences, and has been steered instead towards their current position: a rabid, economically-ignorant (yet politically-involved) group for which the merits of an idea are trumped by whether or not their "team" endorsed it (Democrat: bad, "Republican": good.)

I have no love for either mainstream US party, and initially I thought that the Tea Party idea might end up developing into a viable third party platform with values closer to those of classic liberal philosophy. (Note: "liberal" here is used in its original form, not as a synonym for Democrat). Sadly, they turned out nothing like that -- and the folks who currently wear the label are worthy of the scorn they get.

Ideology without pragmatism. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174257)

The Tea Party suffers from the same problem that the FSF and the GNU project suffer from: a reasonable enough ideology, but a total lack of pragmatism.

Without a good amount of pragmatism to go along with their ideologies, they often come off to some as extremists or crazies.

Just look at GNU project versus the various BSDs, for example. They have a similar enough underlying ideology regarding software freedom, but take slightly different approaches to practicing this ideology. The BSD community is grounded in reality, and have created superb operating systems with very reasonable licensing. The GNU project, on the other hand, is not grounded in reality, and instead has managed to only produce rip-offs of traditional UNIX utilities (still without a home-grown kernel!), extremely restrictive licenses, and strife.

Regardless of whether we're talking about politics or open source software, those with pragmatism and ideology always come across as more reasonable and sensible than those with ideology but no pragmatism, who instead come off as zealots and freaks.

Re:Yikes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174317)

Comments like this are what show how "tea party" is pejorative. The actual american tea party is a) not completely grass roots b) not concerned with fiscal responsibility rather a certain set of old fashioned american christian values, c) and are absolutely happy to have lot's of concentrated power as long as they are the ones in control.

Tea party language has always been filled with endless doublespeak and hyperbole. So in a sense the term itself is not pejorative. It is merely refers to groups of people that speak with lots of doublespeak and hyperbole.

Re:Yikes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174489)

"values"

lol.

Re:Yikes (2)

Iskender (1040286) | about a year ago | (#45174595)

This subthread is so political that I suspect nothing of what I say will get across. That said, I'll still try - it won't be a lot of wasted effort in any case.

When Shuttleworth compares people to the Tea Party here, he's not talking about the party's ideals. That would make no sense: how could adherence to the US Constitution be relevant to open source development?

Instead, he's referring to the actions of the party. This is pretty good, really: any party can say nice words, but should really be judged by its actions and results. The Tea Party has been doing its best to retard legislation for weeks.

Co-operation is fundamental to politics, both when it comes to countries and open source software. No matter what the principles are, someone who says "no" all the time will be called stubborn. If the Tea Party wants to get its ideals across, it will have to grow up and negotiate solutions with others. No one else will negotiate for them.

In the same way, the Ubuntu naysayers will have to put up or shut up. I actually think Shuttleworth is pretty arrogant, and that Ubuntu is getting worse. But if Mir ships before Wayland, the latter really won't be looking very good. OTOH, if Mir becomes this thing which only Ubuntu ever supports, then Shuttleworth will be stuck being the stubborn one.

Aaron Seigo's retort (5, Interesting)

Curupira (1899458) | about a year ago | (#45174015)

Seigo has posted on Google+ an invitation [google.com] to Shuttleworth to a public debate on Mir vs. Wayland issues.

Re:Aaron Seigo's retort (1)

jonsmirl (114798) | about a year ago | (#45174153)

That would be fun to see. I still can't see any reason for the MIr split other than Canonical's contributor agreement which lets them sell the code. Does Canonical really think Redhat/Intel/etc are going to write code and then give it to Canonical so that they can resell it as closed source?

But I would much rather have one fully working graphics system than four or five half working ones. Much more interesting would be to work towards a merger between Wayland and Surfaceflinger.

Political grounds? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174017)

I don't consider it political when people complain because to them you seem to act like uncooperative asshats, especially when OpenSource is supposed to be about cooperating. Something not being technical (though I remember quite a lot of technical criticism) doesn't make it political.

Leave politics out of open source please (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174021)

It just makes you look like a jackass to apply a political stigma to an open source group, and stinks of crying about not getting your way.

I know I will get modded down but... (0)

LavouraArcaica (2012798) | about a year ago | (#45174031)

The true is that Ubuntu and Canonical are doing a great job. Unity is not there yet, but will be. Mir is starting, and I would bet that will be good in 2 years.

I loved linux back in '90s (slackware at the time). But after sometime I found that the fanatical community would never do a system intended for non-geeks. For this reason, I stoped using linux in the 2000s. But ubuntu changed that mentality. They have a system that have auto-updates, a good management pack system and a simple and beauty visual. I get things done in the office without going to source code. That's all I require from a computer. And Ubuntu, right now, is the ONLY linux (for desktop) that provide this.

Re:I know I will get modded down but... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174085)

Then you have been out of the loop for about half a decade. Fedora and Suse are literally just as user friendly as Ubuntu is.
There is literally no configuration necessary through the device auto detection, partitioning, they have auto updates as well and fantastic package managers.
They are also much much more closely related to the enterprise distributions making them a better fit for anyone seeking to move in to administration from a professional standpoint.

Re:I know I will get modded down but... (0)

rubycodez (864176) | about a year ago | (#45174145)

Plenty of distros have all those first two without the utter shit UI that Canonical shoved onto users, driving them away.

Re:I know I will get modded down but... (1)

loonycyborg (1262242) | about a year ago | (#45174237)

You are confused. It doesn't matter how fanatical community the community is. Only what matters is their skill and objectives. The only reason it's not the year of linux on desktop is that system integrators decided not to use it. If they did you and other non-geek users would be using it no matter how crappy and geeky it is. There were worse software pre-installed in the past than modern linux distros. And somebody who installs an OS pretty much guaranteed to be a geek. So there's no wonder that OSes that are only available as download and not pre-installed on hardware target geeks. They're absolutely right to do so. Ubuntu is not an exception here.

Politics matter (3, Insightful)

Chemisor (97276) | about a year ago | (#45174055)

When you get to choose which country to live in, you will without a doubt check its politics. An authoritarian regime that can throw you in jail or kill you on a whim is probably not a good place to live. Likewise when choosing an OS or a desktop environment it is prudent to check the worldview and the attitude of the developers to gauge the direction in which these projects are going and decide whether that's the direction you'll want to be pulled in.

Just as moving to another country is difficult and expensive once you put down roots, have a job and a family, moving to a different OS or DE is difficult and painful as you find your favorite progams only work on what you used to use. As things stand, I have no desire to move to Mark Shuttleworth's kingdom.

Even a Tea Party can be right occsionally (2, Informative)

Antique Geekmeister (740220) | about a year ago | (#45174061)

I've done some review of Canonical's license agreements for a Debian compatible software tool. Their licensing is peculiar. While individual components are being published as GPLv3, they're requesting, and getting, written permission from some contributors to re-publish the code under alternative licenses, at Canonical's whim. That is releasing licensing rights to someone else. Even if Canonical proves trustworthy (and they've not, due to their strange browser collection data practices), that goes far beyond most open source or freeware licenses.

Paranoia about open source licensing, for authors, has repeatedly proven justified. Projects released under older licenses have had their licenses carefully skirted, and software effectively encumbered with additional requirements that prevented open development. Examples have included NVidia drivers, which proprietized the OpenGL libraries, and Sun's encumbered licensing for Java. Ubuntu is doing reasonably well riding on the shoulders of the Debian upstream developers, and have been contributing back to the open source world. But this is not the first time Mr. Shuttleworth has made licensing, clearly to Ubuntu's commercial advantage and with the potential for abuse, at the expense of the open source community's safety.

Wait, what? (1)

steelyeyedmissileman (1657583) | about a year ago | (#45174069)

Lennart Poettering's systemd, who is the past

But I thought systemd was the future?

Re:Wait, what? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174377)

Its a piece of crap.

It hangs systems, won't shutdown, and isn't (it cannot be) reliable; and is nearly impossible to debug why the system doesn't work.

It has multiple internal dependancies (dbus, systemd, udev, journald) such that if any single one fails, the system is hung. Or crashes.

And you can't find out why because any logs are locked in a binary format. And, if it is dbus that fails, even the logs don't tell you what happened. It randomly schedules startup tasks, so that you don't know which one may have hung, and are unable to fix it for the same reason.

Re:Wait, what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174545)

Let's say that has shortcomings and the authors do not fix them because they apparently are smarter. (E.G. systemd can't be built statically because they can't get right adding prefixes in C and seal private functions if they are used only once)

nice ad hominem attack asshole! (-1, Troll)

FudRucker (866063) | about a year ago | (#45174091)

shuttleworth labeled everyone that disagrees with him & cannonical a GNU-TeaParty, hey shuttleworth fuck you asshole i would punch you right in the nose if i ever get within arms reach of you

Re:nice ad hominem attack asshole! (1)

CadentOrange (2429626) | about a year ago | (#45174307)

So you respond to an ad hominem attack with a physical one? Well played, sir.

Re:nice ad hominem attack asshole! (1)

Oligonicella (659917) | about a year ago | (#45174353)

His was overreach, but sometimes it *is* appropriate.

Re:nice ad hominem attack asshole! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174413)

Why are you so angry?

Mir and Unity (1)

andrewthomas25 (2555160) | about a year ago | (#45174093)

Mr Shuttleworth can keep his mir and his unity. I am not holding my breath waiting for uPhone to take the world by storm.

Pot, Kettle, let me introduce Mr. Black Hole (1)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about a year ago | (#45174117)

>
By contrast, those same outraged individuals have NIH’d just about every important piece of the stack they can get their hands on

Not Invented Here, eh? Tell me, where's this Mir shit coming from, and Unity? Looks like it's Ubuntu's Daddy is the one with the case of Not Invented Here syndrome. It's called projection. Get bent, Mark, you're a retard.

Re:Pot, Kettle, let me introduce Mr. Black Hole (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174175)

Canonical doesn't have a NIH syndrome. They have something else: the NCBU syndrome (not controlled by us).

For most stuff, they don't care. When they do, they roll their own crap. This applies to Mir, Unity, and a few other components, but it doesn't apply to upstart (check the project history if you don't understand why).

Re:Pot, Kettle, let me introduce Mr. Black Hole (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174179)

If you read the blog post, he's calling Red hat hipocritcal for calling Mir nih, after they developed systems when upstart was already availiblle.

Re:Pot, Kettle, let me introduce Mr. Black Hole (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174439)

And systemd works nothing like it.

Further, if you *really* want to go down that line, you could just as well use that train of thought to discredit upstart in the first place; we already had both bsdinit and sysv init before upstart....

Re:Pot, Kettle, let me introduce Mr. Black Hole (1)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about a year ago | (#45174453)

Like systemd or not, equating systemd and upstart as equivalent is either ignorant or dishonest [gentoo.org] .

I guess saying such a thing will get me labelled an extremist in Ubuntu circles. It's no surprise to me that the gentoo guys do the best job comparing the available choices.

WHO PROOFED THAT SHET !! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174123)

It is Krup !!

No Mark, Canonical the tea party assholes (1)

rubycodez (864176) | about a year ago | (#45174161)

with the crap UI that is shit for all the same reasons the windows 8 one is you are driving people away and doing damage to desktop linux. siding with the gnome3 mentality of screwing the users and saying "it's my way or the highway". Mark, you are the tea bagger of open source

Re:No Mark, Canonical the tea party assholes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174435)

Have you even used Unity? It is much more closer to a standard desktop than the fancy Modern UI of Windows 8.

The reason people attack you, Mr Shuttleworth (4, Interesting)

dkleinsc (563838) | about a year ago | (#45174177)

On the one hand, Ubuntu has seriously improved desktop Linux, particularly in hardware auto-detection and driver support.

On the other hand, you've shown on several occasions that your goal with Ubuntu is to take the effort of thousands of volunteer developers and sell it and the Ubuntu install base for personal profit. That turns those same formerly motivated volunteers into chumps who worked for you for free, and nobody likes being a chump.

And then there's the UI thing, but Ubuntu is hardly the only one making mistakes there (see Gnome 3). The fundamental issue is that a significant portion of UI designers think that making tablets and desktops and phones should all have basically identical interfaces. There's a clear reason why that's a bad idea: Different kinds of input methods demand different kinds of interactions. For example, on a touchscreen the easiest place to interact with is the center of the screen, whereas with a mouse the easiest place to interact with is actually the corners, which means you want to put your icons and menus and such in different places.

Tea Party and Science (1)

Culture20 (968837) | about a year ago | (#45174183)

I wonder if "open source tea party" members know more about computer science than non open source tea party members.

Re:Tea Party and Science (1)

houstonbofh (602064) | about a year ago | (#45174481)

I wonder if "open source tea party" members know more about computer science than non open source tea party members.

Well said!

systemd (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174197)

Well, Mark certainly isn't wrong about systemd, but his message is lost because the NIH-syndrome he suffers from is comparable (if not worse) to Lennart's. Mark is just jealous that Lennart has (somehow) convinced so many distributions to use his "[un]justified" (Mark is completely correct on that analysis), bloated, anti-UNIX-philosophy software. I don't begrudge Mark for scratching his itches, and I praise him for any good things he has accomplished, but I view the projects that Canonical chooses to support similarly to systemd, pulseaudio, and other useless (or destructive) junk: do not want.

Bad analogy (3, Insightful)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about a year ago | (#45174213)

This "Tea Party" isn't getting funding from the execs of the top closed-source megacorps, are they?

Summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174239)

Has any editor even read this summary? I could have written better and more correct English when I was 8.

Shuttleworth = Tea Party (1)

Joining Yet Again (2992179) | about a year ago | (#45174245)

Loud extremist uttering nonsense which has seduced a small but influential minority of idiots, dragging everyone e;se in the wrong direction and making things a lot worse.

It's what Microsoft would have wanted.

invasiveness of systemd (1)

bakedbread (2009504) | about a year ago | (#45174247)

Initially systemd didn't seem invasive. It was comparable to upstart that it could run initd scripts but preferred daemons to support it native. After that it developed a new dynamics e.g. as GNOME noticed that booting had same problems as session management (initializing, monitoring and shutting down processes) and systemd solved it elegantly (however we know that pottering is part of the GNOME universe). So I would say that you can say the systemd is invasive or hardly justified but not both.

Re:invasiveness of systemd (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174429)

No. systemd still hasn't solved it (either "elegantly" or otherwise). Systems still hang because it doesn't properly track processes (and it cannot - that is an impossibility due to the way it is designed). Because of the internal inter-dependencies, it also has trouble shutting down, or even starting. But finding out WHY a shutdown fails is impossible - as the only way to get control back is to crash the system, and loose all information as to what was going on.

It just over complicates something that used to work reliably.

Re:invasiveness of systemd (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45174529)

Amen. I was always a systemd nay-sayer and my first use of it has confirmed all the negativity. Installed the latest Fedora and everything was working well until rebooting after a yum update. Now systemd/journald are completely wedged. I can boot in single-user mode and manually start everything except systemd and journald. (And since journald is hosed, I have no system logs to look at.)

I recently installed a computer newbie (1)

allo (1728082) | about a year ago | (#45174277)

Debian.

Works stable out of the box, printer was usable without even configuring it (i wanted to add it, just to see that its already a registerted printer), everything works. Nice stable versions, with a new release "when it's ready", which does not need to "wait for .1 of it for a stable version".

SysV-init still runs nice on Debian, and they will continue to use Xorg/Wayland.

So, seems a good choice for DAUs, and for experts, too.

Let's pray Lucas Nussbaum is as prud of you too (1)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | about a year ago | (#45174283)

Shuttleworth: "'So yes, I am very proud to be, as the Register puts it, the Ubuntu Daddy. My affection for this community in its broadest sense â" from Mint to our cloud developer audience, and all the teams at Canonical and in each of our derivatives, is very tangible today.'"

Read: http://www.debian.org/intro/organization [debian.org]

Debian's Organizational Structure

Occasionally people need to contact someone about a particular aspect of Debian. The following is a list of different jobs and the e-mail addresses to use in order to contact the people responsible for those tasks.

Please be made aware that mails sent to some of these addresses are publicly archived, especially but not limited to those with the term "lists" in the mail domain part.

        Leader
                  current Lucas Nussbaum
        Technical Committee
                  chairman Bdale Garbee
                  member Russ Allbery
                  member Don Armstrong
                  member Andreas Barth
                  member Ian Jackson
                  member Steve Langasek
                  member Colin Watson
        Secretary
                  current Kurt Roeckx
                  assistant Neil McGovern

Can we expect Nussbaum to say he is proud of derivatives, like Ubuntu?

Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>