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MEPs Vote To Suspend Data Sharing With US

timothy posted 1 year,1 day | from the how's-that-for-gratitude? dept.

EU 180

New submitter mrspoonsi writes with this news, excerpted from the BBC: "The European Parliament has voted to suspend the sharing of financial data with the U.S., following allegations that citizens' data was spied on....The European Parliament voted to suspend its Terrorist Finance Tracking Program (TFTP) agreement with the US, in response to the alleged tapping of EU citizens' bank data held by the Belgian company SWIFT. The agreement granted the U.S. authorities access to bank data for terror-related investigations but leaked documents made public by whistleblower Edward Snowden allege that the global bank transfer network was the target of wider U.S. surveillance."

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The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (0, Redundant)

Langalf (557561) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223591)

and we are all surprised?

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (5, Insightful)

some old guy (674482) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223943)

No, we're surprised that shills keep posting "we already knew this" and thinking they're clever.

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (-1, Redundant)

Kremmy (793693) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224177)

Each and every one of them, another "I told you so, idiot." ... we already knew this.

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (5, Interesting)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224183)

In theory we did. The US/UK NATO crypto offers for friendly embassy use was junk from the 1950-90's. It kept the Soviets out but let the NSA and GCHQ in. The UK and US press often hinted at plain text from embassy intercepts over many years. How far back do you want to go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection [wikipedia.org] 1960?
..."practices the United States uses in gathering intelligence information ... deliberately violating the airspace of other nations ... intercepting and deciphering the secret communications of its own allies ..."
Thanks to Snowden we have the history needed for the dreamy sock puppets. I saw one offer that the US does not really 'use' the info for finance or domestic political needs.
A huge change from its not possible, would never work, would be found out, the data sets are too large, the US brands would never help, the political and legal protections ...:)

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224567)

I saw one offer that the US does not really 'use' the info for finance or domestic political needs.

That most likely would be Cold Fjord [slashdot.org] ... well known pro military drone troll who get more airtime on Slashdot story submissions than he should...

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (2, Insightful)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224287)

How old are you? When I got on the internet in 1992 as a 9th grader, the NSA didn't even officially exist, but I knew full well that the NSA was monitoring foreign and domestic network traffic.

The Room 641A story was on the cover of the New York Times 7 years ago.

I don't think saying "we already knew this" is clever. It's a fact. I knew this. And since I did not have any special access to information, I have to assume that everyone else who paid any attention also knew this.

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (1)

sI4shd0rk (3402769) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224459)

I don't think saying "we already knew this" is clever. It's a fact. I knew this. And since I did not have any special access to information, I have to assume that everyone else who paid any attention also knew this.

Yes, and? Enough with the "Why are you surprised?"-type posts. I agree that it was obvious to anyone with a brain, so there's no point in acting like everyone is surprised (more angry after having seen evidence maybe, but not surprised).

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (1)

Langalf (557561) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224465)

I remember seeing a recruiting brochure for the NSA when I was in college in the late 70's. They touted something like, "Come work for the NSA, we are 10 to 15 years ahead of what is considered state-of-the-art".

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224961)

Yes UK/US magazines and books where hinting at much from public news by the late 1970's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Puzzle_Palace [wikipedia.org] was ~1982.

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (1)

TheCarp (96830) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224859)

Especially since the correct response, if we already knew this, should be directed at the MEPs and it is "I told you so".

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223981)

Surprised at how the NSA got so deep into France/EU and was able to take over their domestic telco system for generations.
For that you would need a Vichy "tech" to actively help and collaborate to hide foreign telco tech within France/EU.
The UK, Italy, Germany is understandalbe as client or defeated nations. France and other more tech savvy EU nations should have been able to understand their own internal (global) telco networks. How is the NSA getting all the data out?
Is France and others looping the bulk of its calls via NSA friendly countries to save in domestic telco interconnect fees?
The US message back is http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57608909-83/intelligence-chief-le-mondes-allegations-against-nsa-false/ [cnet.com]
The French and other EU nations are just talking about weapons of mass destruction too much on the phone? Just a list of US/UK keywords and French people chatting on the phone the wrong way?

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (3, Insightful)

Joining Yet Again (2992179) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224235)

My experience with ISP administration, like my father's experience as a Telefonica engineer, is that you don't have to be a genius to have a very substantial level of technical responsibility - but you do have to be one of the lads.

And that means you're very chummy and utterly loyal to the environment around you. Your god-like powers give you god-like beliefs, especially over your ability to monitor the behaviour of others. After all, you have so much responsibility and so much control, which means you must know best, right?

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (1)

nospam007 (722110) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224533)

"The French and other EU nations are just talking about weapons of mass destruction too much on the phone?"

Yes, they prevented all the terrorist acts Angela Merkel was planning too.

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (1)

jimminy_cricket (139648) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224161)

Yes. Do you suppose the role of an intelligence organization is to spy on its allies? How much of an ally can they really be if we spy on them like we do our enemies? The role of the NSA is not (or should not be) to spy on everyone. Spying is not a friendly activity. Spying is fundamentally a hostile activity and subjecting our allies to hostile activity will quickly result in a loss of allies.

Would you be friendly with someone who was spying on you?

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (2)

Crashmarik (635988) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224229)

Of course you are going to spy on your allies. They can be much more dangerous than your enemies ever could.

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224475)

Of course you are going to spy on your allies. They can be much more dangerous than your enemies ever could.

Yes, take America for example.

America is currently as much of a threat to the rights and freedoms of everyone else in the world as the people they purport to be watching for.

Why would anybody continue to trust the US when they're acting like a bunch of self entitled assholes who think their rights trump ours?

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (2)

sI4shd0rk (3402769) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224485)

Of course you are going to spy on your allies.

I suppose that's why the US government spies on its own citizens. A cowardly way of thinking, but definitely not an excuse thugs would be above using.

Re:The NSA did what they were chartered to do ... (5, Insightful)

Feyshtey (1523799) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224165)

"There's no way our government would do that."
"There's no way we wouldnt already know if they were doing that."
And from the last several years,
"Obama is going to fix all the abuses of the warmongering Republicans. So whatever evils were there they will be going away."

In the end we have purchased what has befallen us, but not through informed consent. It's simply been done through willful ignorance and denial. It takes minimal awareness to recognize how clueless most Americans are, wholly consumed with the mind-rot like Jersey Shore or Facebook.

So yes, most are/were surprised.

Why should Independent nations not react ? (3, Interesting)

no_go (96797) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224209)

The NSA is chartered to do that by a specific nation. The USA.

Why should independent nations not react to the (very real and ilegal) actions ot the NSA against those nations' interests and citizens?

For anyone that is minimaly informed about history and politics, the desire of the NSA (or any other inteligence agency) to have access to EVERYTHING is obvious.
My surprise is limited to the extent to which the NSA as been allowed to gain that information.
The level and volume of information that it is said that the NSA acquires regarding communications inside european countries would'nt be possible without:
- A faily big operational capability (which isn't neither new nor chocking in itself)
- Cooperation from local entities , government and private (which is very unsettling)
- The belief by those that make the decisions, in Europe, allowing access by the NSA to local resources, that that access wouldn't be abused. (which was unbelievable as it is mind-bogllingly STUPID).

Putting it bluntly, these actions by the NSA are illegal in most (if not all) of the european countries.
- It's agents and enablers are breaking laws. Those should be punished legaly when caught (yes, prison).

Also, "good will" with regards to access to some information sources should be re-evaluated.
Those include the aforementioned finantial data and should also include the passenger information now routinely shoveled out by the EU to the US, even regarding flights that don't touch the USAs airspace.

yeah, tit for tat, that oughta teach 'em! (1)

swschrad (312009) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224747)

get caught spying, get expelled from NoValueIstan. this is the same thing.

otherwise known as shit on the neighbors, they won't like you any more.

something three-year-olds catch onto quickly, but governments never do...

The laws! They do nothing! (0)

fustakrakich (1673220) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223599)

How will this stop the US from tapping into their cables?

Re:The laws! They do nothing! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224125)

New EU laws to restrict where EU ISPs can route their traffic, routing to the USA on need rather than a wanting for cheaper rates.

As for undersea cables, we have the Navy to defend those, well in theory anyway.

Maybe Europe could create a super Navy to defend them from foreign evil like the USA.

Re:The laws! They do nothing! (4, Interesting)

no_go (96797) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224405)

The amount of information obtained in the "french affair" isn't attainable via "tapping cables".
It entails access to switching equipment, call detail records, etc.

This access is via either of two ways:
- Backdoors
- Agents in place that have access to those systems.
It also entails some very fat "pipes" connecting to those systems.

These aren't new issues regarding security (and I don't mean "cyber security").

Maybe the powers that be need to start mandating more security to that part of the infra-structure.

That, and :
- Auditing of software and hardware (and not just rubber-stamping)
- Increased security for physical assets (data-centers, overland cables, etc...)
- And active enforcment of anti-espionage laws
will mitigate the problem.

What won't solve it, and will certeanly lead to more abuse and friction between states, is just shrugging
it of or brushing it under the carpet.

Good luck (2)

stewsters (1406737) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223605)

"MEPs vote to suspend US data sharing"

How do they plan to stop it? I am being serious here. It sounds like the NSA has taps on all their data already, whether Europeans give it freely or not.

Re:Good luck (4, Informative)

Aryden (1872756) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223795)

They are talking about a specific program where the EU hands over financial data on suspected terrorists to the US. They will no longer be handing that data over willfully.

Re:Good luck (5, Informative)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224017)

And more specifically, they're talking about a program that undermines SWIFT. As a reminder, in the wake of 9/11 the Bush administration concluded that it could find terrorists through financial transaction tracking. The problem - global wire transfers and other financial messaging is controlled by a Belgian company. The CIA apparently had to be almost restrained from just immediately hacking them outright. Instead the US Treasury got involved and SWIFT were forced to hand over data by virtue of them having a US based datacenter (as a backup for their EU datacenter).

SWIFT have said, several times and on the record, that they are not happy about being abused for political purposes and immediately began constructing a second backup datacenter also in the EU. The USA, seeing that their leverage over SWIFT was starting to disappear, decided to apply heavy pressure the EU in order to avoid losing access to this data source even after the US datacenter was decommissioned. The result was the EU data sharing agreement.

The EU parliament was never particularly happy about this arrangement and insisted on there being auditing, etc, which turned out to be a worthless rubber-stamping exercise in which the EU appointed inspectors tried to visit the US Treasury and get reliable documentation on what the data was being used for, but were told to go fuck themselves and that the information they needed was classified. So basically the EU folded under pressure and was then abused, to nobodies surprise at all.

Now that the TFTP data sharing agreement is suspended, and SWIFT no longer need their US datacenter, the only way back in is hacking. And I'm sure the people at SWIFT know that, and will do their best to stop it.

Anyway, this is a very good thing. Next up - airline passenger data!

Re:Good luck (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224281)

Anyway, this is a very good thing. Next up - airline passenger data!

Now that would raise a stink, EU passengers not being allowed passage on USA soil.

Re:Good luck (1)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224323)

That would NEVER happen. The tourism industry would probably launch a coup themselves if the government even *suggested* the idea.

Re:Good luck (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224351)

The tourism industry VS the USA Government.

Round One.

FIGHT!

seriously, the US government isn't known for its intelligence, they probably will suggest it at least.

Re:Good luck (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224061)

Not true. It's financial data for everyone with bank accounts under the guise of "terrorists". They're also looking for US people with overseas accounts that aren't declared on their tax returns (FBAR).

Re:Good luck (5, Insightful)

ledow (319597) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223979)

Why do they need to even bother to stop it? If the US are doing things that we don't want them to do anyway, why go to ANY effort to help them do them legally? This is about removing our assistance that we give them to do it, not stopping them being able to do it.

Let them take the administrative burden (and I highly doubt they are monitoring every flight and every person on every flight, or else the agreement wouldn't have existed in the first place anyway), let them take the fall when the data is released by accident, and let it look to EU citizens like you're not caving in to the US (which is what we all accused them of when this agreement first appeared).

Nobody expects it to STOP the US stealing the data, but why should we help them do so at enormous expense to us? It's like piracy - the data is going to be stolen anyway, so why bother putting in a system of controls, contracts and everything else to our cost?

But, to be honest, this is nothing to do with data leaks or agreements. If you're not already reading this as the first step to broken EU/US relations, then you haven't been paying attention. That this happened is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than what's actually happened. No more easy rides for the US when they want something from us. (As it should be, because they never play ball when we ask for something).

Even Anglo-US relations are tenuous nowadays. You've just pissed off the French and the Germans. That's pretty much the three biggest economies/countries in the EU. There's not much of a step left until the whole of the EU has problems with the way you do things.

And then you can say bye-bye to us lending a hand for things like extraditions and terrorist bug-hunts. The EU followed the US into a pointless, long and very, very expensive "war" that never was (you can say what you want - it was NOT a war, legally or ethically - it's was a criminal hunt with guns in foreign countries), in the middle of massive economic troubles, and what did we see from it? Much stricter airport controls for ourselves, giving the US all our data (and getting nothing back), and lots and lots of expensive military action.

And what do we get back for our assistance? The US spied on us and then couldn't even be bothered to keep the information properly secret (Note: A whistleblower running around the world telling people all these things is TEN TIMES more damning than the fact that you spied them in the first place - it's just amateur). That's not how you treat an ally.

The biggest thing here is that the EU no longer wants to play ball with the US. If more things emerge, that distrust will deepen. You can play the "most important country in the world" card all you like, the fact is that the EU has more money in trade, and a much greater influence over other countries. It's going to hurt if the US continue to piss off the EU, and there aren't that many people in the EU who would care.

It's a question of how long before this affects US trade and before we're the ones imposing sanctions and forcing agreements on the US. Because, seriously guys, you might be big, but without the co-operation of your allies, you're in serious trouble.

Re:Good luck (5, Insightful)

mythix (2589549) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224339)

As a EU citizen, I can only agree. We're increasingly seeing the US (government) as the actual terrorists, which is the only truth as far as i'm concered. I'm happy these economic and data sharing relations are crumbling down. Maybe it will knock some sense into the US government.

It's a pity for the social and human aspect though, I've been twice and love the country and people.

Re:Good luck (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224035)

Why lock your car since crook will just break in anyway?

Re:Good luck (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224453)

Well the EU telco staff now know. Its not legal and they have to pick a winning team and fast. What do a generation of cleared technicians, scientists, engineers and other graduates do working for their nations telcos?
Do what their legal system says or keep helping a nice 'general', 'political leader', 'boss' who visits from time to time with expensive splitting optical "work"?
Will that 'general', 'political leader', 'boss' protect them from their own internal security forces and any new investigations?
The work orders, files, hardware all exists. ID numbers and names are linked. It all depends on most nations internal security forces and their feelings towards their phones been tapped long term.
Will the 'general', 'political leader', 'boss' win the day or will the internal security forces start interviewing their nations top telco scientists and engineers?
Will the military intelligence services and foreign security forces take on their own and stop anything getting to the press?
If the 'general', 'political leader', 'boss' wins its domestic spying as usual - jobs and huge pensions stay. If the internal security forces win the public trials start.

Next up. (1)

sjwt (161428) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223607)

How long before we hear calls to declare the whole EU as terrorist sympathisers?
As more of this comes out, I hope others join the EU and we start looking at a embargo on sharing information with the US until it learns.

Re:Next up. (1)

scuzzlebutt (517123) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223995)

No need for that. NSA will grab whatever they want anyway. They've been tapping all comms for decades already.

Re:Next up. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224575)

No need for that. NSA will grab whatever they want anyway. They've been tapping all comms for decades already.

They won't be able to grab much if the EU stops ISPs from routing data to the USA and back again for the sake of being a cheapskate.

Ditto for the UK as well, do you want the NSA's twin sister sucking up your data from the boundary of the EU itself?

PRISM is another matter, and needs a completely different approach, like making popular national alternatives over those that are based in the USA, China has a good example with Baidu.

You attack the NSA's capability using a multi-pronged attack not a single one.

So, let the USA ... (4, Funny)

PPH (736903) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223621)

... cut off the reciprocal data sharing agreements with EU authorities. The ones where their intelligence agencies can hoover up all financial data from any US organization associated with any EU citizen.

Re:So, let the USA ... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45223723)

Actually, no, screw you. You just lost the right to take the moral high ground with your snooping and shitty lack of government oversight. Suffer. I hope you lose jobs over this.

Re:So, let the USA ... (4, Informative)

jareth-0205 (525594) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223789)

... cut off the reciprocal data sharing agreements with EU authorities. The ones where their intelligence agencies can hoover up all financial data from any US organization associated with any EU citizen.

I think that's the issue (and why this sharing has been a bit controversial over here), is that those reciprocal agreements don't exist. The US have been given a view into EU data, and the same sharing doesn't come in the other direction. (whether it was sought... I don't know, but one-sided arrangements are troublesome in and of themselves)

Re:So, let the USA ... (1)

PPH (736903) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223987)

That was sort of my point. I just forgot the <irony> tags.

Industrial/financial espionage aside, the USA is instantiating a policy much the same as that of the Warsaw pact nations and the USSR following WWII. The next war, or terrorist activity, will be fought on EU territory as a buffer zone. Not in the USA. Unlike the World Wars, there is no physical 'front line'. But a logical one can be created by making an asymmetrical defensive barrier.

I think the EU is starting to realize this. And they are not happy.

Not hugely suprising (3, Informative)

jareth-0205 (525594) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223635)

The TFTP was a pretty one-sided agreement, and it's therefore politically fragile and the first thing that's likely to be pulled when the trust in the USA's respect of EU data breaks down.

Re:Not hugely suprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45223885)

On the other hand, I wonder what was the point of sharing data, if you don't give a peek at it. How can the EU act surprised at the abuse? Special laws always get abused in the end, sometimes they are conceived to be abused in the first place: nazi propaganda anyone?

Re:Not hugely suprising (3, Funny)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224025)

TFTP is not one-sided, it actually is an ACK'd protocol.

maybe EU should give the US the BOOTP, then. (but even that is not one-sided, exactly).

Re:Not hugely suprising (1)

Sir_Eptishous (873977) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224275)

It was an abnormally long wait until someone made a TFTP joke...

Re:Not hugely suprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224447)

It's not known for having a reliable transport mechanism.

Oh no! (2)

barlevg (2111272) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223649)

The EU members won't share data with us that we want! If only one of our intelligence bureaus had a way to get data from other countries without their consent...

Re:Oh no! (5, Insightful)

gsslay (807818) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223779)

Seriously? The US is in the middle of seriously pissing off all its allies, and your response is simply "We don't care! We'll do what we want and you can't stop us!"

And people use to wonder why the Middle Eastern countries hated America. This is Europe getting some of the same treatment.

Re:Oh no! (1)

barlevg (2111272) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223961)

My point was that telling a robber "You stole our TV, so now we're not going to invite you over to watch the game at our house" is a pretty funny response. If this gesture is accompanied by, say, installing a lock on the back door that you're confident the robber can't break, then that's another matter entirely.

Re:Oh no! (2)

Xest (935314) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224397)

Given that the whole reason this agreement was set up in the first place is because it was data the US felt it desperately needed and couldn't get then I think that lock is already there.

Re:Oh no! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45223977)

Nobody ever wondered why the Middle Eastern countries hated America. Everyone knows the reason. I love how they hate us, but then they let us station thousands of troops in their countries and they sell us all of their oil. I wouldn't mind severing ties with Europe. We've been spending the last 70 years solving all of their problems. It might be good for us to go back to isolationism and let everyone else deal with the bullshit.

Re:Oh no! (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224355)

...It might be good for us to go back to isolationism and let everyone else deal with the bullshit.

Dear America,

Please do.

Love ya, The Rest of the World

Re:Oh no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224687)

Dear Rest of the World,

China called, they say they're taking over next and they won't even pretend to play nice.
Have fun.

America

Re:Oh no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224413)

I love how they hate us, but then they let us station thousands of troops in their countries and they sell us all of their oil.

You are very confused. There's two different groups you are trying to refer to as the same "they" here. Just as in the US, the people of a country and the government of a country are quite capable of disagreeing. The people (at least, some of them) in Middle East may not be too happy about the US troops in their countries, but the governments aren't complaining.

Re:Oh no! (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224059)

middle eastern (what you really mean is muslim) countries hate ALL non-muslim nations. the US is just a proper subset of that.

US spying is wrong and evil, but this has nothing to do with why the disagreement based on religion exists so strongly in the M.E.

Re:Oh no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224591)

No they don't. Iran has pretty cosy relationships with China and Russia, for example, not to mention a bunch of South American countries.

Re:Oh no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224709)

Nice false dichotomy you have there. There are degrees of hatred and the US (+Israel) is right at the top of these people's hate list. Not entirely unjustified, the cynic in me might add.

Re:Oh no! (1)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224327)

Are you aware that Islamist terrorists have attacked London and Madrid more recently than the US?

Re:Oh no! (1)

realxmp (518717) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223867)

"had" being the past participle. You had a way to get data from SWIFT without consent but it's likely that particular doorway is now firmly closed. It's possible that the NSA could attempt to penetrate SWIFT again, but the heightened security measures likely to be in place and the political risks of getting caught again so soon after being caught once mean that's a long term op which is unlikely to be approved in the near future. Realistically though it is unlikely SWIFT data access will actually be cut, and even if it were, they'd still be able to access it through friendly agencies such as SIS and DGSE. The point is it's embarrassing and it slows things down.

Re:Oh no! (4, Insightful)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224065)

Well SWIFT is based in Belgium. Now their failover datacenter is not in America anymore the US theoretically doesn't have much political leverage left, and will have to rely on hacking. How good their IT security is anyones guess, but they've been around a while and more importantly will be on the alert. A lot of this hacking was invisible for so long because nobody was looking for it. You'll notice that once Snowden started leaking the GCHQ operation against Belgacom was busted, Merkel's phone being tapped got busted by German intelligence, etc. Belgian counter-intelligence will probably be a part of defending SWIFT. They know 5 Eyes are coming for them, and when you know an attack is coming it's much easier to fight it off.

Re:Oh no! (1)

Sockatume (732728) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224223)

It costs more time and money to obtain the data covertly than overtly, time and money that would have to be redirected from other parts of the NSA's work.

Children it is your own fault. (1, Redundant)

arthurpaliden (939626) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223663)

Every child knows that if you abuse a privilege it gets taken away.

SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid (2)

lesincompetent (2836253) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223759)

That's THE LEAST that ought to be done.

US credibility has reached parody (0)

ElitistWhiner (79961) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223791)

NSA tapped the firehose ( internet meta-style) getting all EU data. I'd be one pissed EU citizen.

thank you (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45223807)

thank you for this post
http://www.bestofhealthfitness.com/

It's about time (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45223937)

Hopefully, other countries will cease cooperating with the US until we reign in the NSA. Bring on the blowback!!

Can be intellectual property next? (3, Insightful)

gmuslera (3436) | 1 year,1 day | (#45223973)

Why Europe should honor US intellectual property if the US government is officially ignoring the intellectual property of all EU citizens, including the one of their leaders?

Re:Can be intellectual property next? (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224039)

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means. The right of freedom of apeech and the right to speak privately have nothing to do with artificial property rights created to provide invention incentive by restricting copying.

Re:Can be intellectual property next? (1)

Kremmy (793693) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224633)

the United States does not hold copyright over private conversations, but they're copying them all anyway. This is extremely relevant.

Re:Can be intellectual property next? (1)

sI4shd0rk (3402769) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224675)

The right of freedom of apeech and the right to speak privately have nothing to do with artificial property rights created to provide invention incentive by restricting copying.

Freedom of speech is actually relevant, given that authorities utilize censorship to try to combat copyright infringement.

Re:Can be intellectual property next? (1)

gmuslera (3436) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224975)

Who I am, where, with who, doing what, that is privacy. But what i do, what i write, say, draw, etc specially in private or shared with a limited group, that is intellectual property... and that is what is being violated by US official policies.

Re:Can be intellectual property next? (1)

cpghost (719344) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224653)

Since when are leaders intellectuals, to have "intellectual property" in the first place?

FATCA Repercussions (1)

Froggels (1724218) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224037)

I wonder what repercussions this may have regarding EU countries' compliance with FATCA?

Business as usual (4, Interesting)

qbast (1265706) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224047)

From article "The vote is non-binding but illustrates MEPs' growing unease [...]" . So parliament showed right amount of outrage, won some brownie points among electorate and managed to do it without pissing off USA. Good job.

Re:Business as usual (4, Informative)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224407)

It's non-binding because the EU Parliament is not a real Parliament. It's very weak and has limited influence, the real power at the EU level is in the European Commission which is sort of like an executive branch that is directed by national governments. The EU Commission may still decide to ignore the Parliament on this one, but I guess that wouldn't do a great deal for their legitimacy, which is at any rate already heavily weakened after years of sustained attacks on their decision making ...

Re:Business as usual (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224635)

The Commission also exists at the mercy of the Parliament, which can hold a vote of no confidence in its president at any time, which would force the entire commission to resign. It has never been used, but the thread of it has been, in order to replace individual commissioners that the parliament didn't like.

Re:Business as usual (2)

qbast (1265706) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224655)

Exactly. That's why EU Parliament is doing the posturing, not Commission. Because they can do it safely and Comission would be expected to actually do something.

Cuts both ways (1)

david.emery (127135) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224149)

Europe is a lot closer to, and has been more impacted by, terrorist strikes than the US. A reduction in data sharing will impact both sides of the Atlantic.

Of course, MEPs aren't really -accountable- to anyone for their decisions, it's the European sovereign governments who will be left holding the bag if terrorist strikes increase.

Re:Cuts both ways (2)

qbast (1265706) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224419)

No, it does not cut both ways. TFTP is sharing data in one direction from Europe (SWIFT headquarter is in Belgium) to USA.

Re:Cuts both ways (1)

david.emery (127135) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224517)

Why should the US share data with Europe, if Europe closes TFTP? That's my point (albeit perhaps not particularly well made.)

Re:Cuts both ways (4, Informative)

qbast (1265706) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224625)

You don't seem to get it. TFTP is one direction only - there is no reciprocal program which gives EU authorities access to transactions within USA (at least nobody heard about one). So USA gets great amount of data particularly useful for industrial espionage (I am sure Boeing would just love to know how much money Airbus is getting, from where, how much it is paying subcontractors,etc.) and Europe gets nothing.

Re:Cuts both ways (1)

david.emery (127135) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224735)

Well, until there's an Edward Snowden equivalent from UK, France, Germany, etc; I'm not sure I believe there are no reciprocal data sharing agreements.

Re:Cuts both ways (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224827)

Why should the US share data with Europe, if Europe closes TFTP? That's my point (albeit perhaps not particularly well made.)

Your reply is based on the unsupported assertion that the US currently "shares" data with Europe.

Re:Cuts both ways (1)

david.emery (127135) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224943)

Well, there have been indications to that effect. But my response is not -predicated- on the prior existence of such agreements.

Rather it asserts the willingness of the US to share -in the future- would be impacted by an European unwillingness to share.

Re:Cuts both ways (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224421)

What does terrorism have to do with Americans spying on European citizens?

Re:Cuts both ways (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224795)

Of course, MEPs aren't really -accountable- to anyone for their decisions,

What are you wittering on about?

The elections are next year.

What more accountability do you want?

Re:Cuts both ways (1)

david.emery (127135) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224969)

Do you really think a French MEP's re-election will be impacted by a terrorist strike in the UK, or vice versa?

So the US still gets the data ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224333)

but doesn't have to say "Please and Thank you"

The NSA did nothing wrong (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224369)

It is the NSA's job to protect America and adhere to American laws which have been determined by the AmericanSupreme Court as constitutional so what's the problem? There is no mention of any European law in the Constitution so what's the problem? If the US had to abide by other countries' laws we would still be stoning 16 year old boys and girls for sex outside marriage.

The only that that sould matter to the NSA are American citizens and their interests which are financed by the American taxpayer.
France and Germany should get back to their cheese and weinershnitzel sausages and sipping their red wine. Who the fuck cares what Germany and France think? After all they need us more than we need them and if they don't like it they can come up with their own NSA.

liberal Eurotrash bitches

Re:The NSA did nothing wrong (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224541)

I am sure the Chionese government is very happy that you are OK with them spying on anything in the U.S. they like and violating any American law they please, as long as it is in accordance with their own laws.

That is an extremely mild response (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224377)

What about actually arresting and prosecuting the criminals who spy on European citizens, governments and companies, funded by our so-called friends at the other side of the Atlantic?

Re:That is an extremely mild response (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224479)

You actually think the USA cares about what some EU politicians think? even with the implemented EU wide laws, they still lack the jurisdiction to 'arrest' any of the NSA's staff, unless of course they travel to the EU where they could be considered fairgame for an EU arrest warrant.

Re:That is an extremely mild response (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224643)

If it were the other way around, the U.S. would just kidnap the suspects, along with some random other people, and torture them on some island without any form of due process (or outsource the torture to a friendly dictatorship in the Middle East). Unfortunately, Europeans are too civilised for such an enterprise, so I am afraid the NSA criminals will simply get away with it (and maybe get some medal from their government).

Re:That is an extremely mild response (1)

Eunuchswear (210685) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224885)

If you look at the French case it's pretty clear that some people who work for the NSA have been in France.

Some of them are probably still here.

These people, especialy if they are French citizens, should be arrested as soon as possible.

Re:That is an extremely mild response (1)

AHuxley (892839) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224813)

EU NATO command would side with the US. Any "hint" at prosecuting anyone would result in the fall of a gov, early retirement or a perfect scandal until the domestic surveillance networks where safe.
The courts would need the full protection of their respective security forces.
Think Poland ~ 1980 or around East Germany in 1988...

you're either with us or you're with the terrorist (1)

beefoot (2250164) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224449)

That makes EU a terrorist state.

Re:you're either with us or you're with the terror (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224725)

Well it would, if the EU were a state, but the point holds. The War on Tourism is going well.

Translation (1)

Arancaytar (966377) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224483)

"So we found out that even though we're giving you all that information for free, you're also spying on us and taking it secretly. That seems kind of redundant. It'd save money if we just let you steal the info yourself instead of handing it over."

TFTP out, FTP in (1)

cpghost (719344) | 1 year,1 day | (#45224683)

The TFTP is being phased out in favor of FTP. Everyone is tracked financially, not just (presumed) terrorists.

TFTP? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,1 day | (#45224689)

With a name like that it should have been obvious that US was going to FTP all EU data Trivially.

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