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Israel Helped the NSA Spy on Former French President According To Documents

samzenpus posted about 9 months ago | from the with-a-little-help-from-my-friends dept.

United States 215

rtoz writes "It wasn't the US government breaking into the private communications of former French President Nicolas Sarkozy, according to top secret documents unearthed by Edward Snowden and published in Le Monde – it was the Israelis. A four-page internal précis regarding a visit to Washington by two top French intelligence officials denies the NSA or any US intelligence agency was behind the May 2012 attempted break-in – which sought to implant a monitoring device inside the Elysee Palace's communications system – but instead fingers the Israelis, albeit indirectly. A few days back, Le Monde reported that the NSA Intercepted French Telephone Calls 'On a Massive Scale' ."

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215 comments

Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (3, Insightful)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about 9 months ago | (#45257813)

I mean, they paid on the "One day I will call upon you to do a service for me" variety plan, but here we are.

It's too bad that system wasn't trained on the charlatans on Wall Street so their crimes could have been accounted for and punished. You know these guys are stupid enough to brag on the phone and via email about their crimes... All the hysterical email leaks from the last crisis prove that out pretty handily. These guys are so arrogant they think themselves "above the law" because they "figured it out."

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (4, Funny)

i kan reed (749298) | about 9 months ago | (#45257851)

One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock is #2: not to relate your statement to a conspiracy by banks(because stereotypes).

#1 is not to deny the holocaust, but you didn't do that, so congratulations.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45257905)

One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock

One of the rules for thinking for yourself while not being a lemming are #2: realize that a man's hatred or love of a group of people has nothing to do with the factual truth of what is being said. #1 is to let racism or ethnocentrism be HIS problem and stop anointing yourself the arbiter of all that is righteous.

Yes that takes a bit of humility and restraint and those are in short supply these days, for nothing is more fashionable than climbing on your high horse and telling other people how they should be and finding ways to justify it. A person who hates is polluting his own life and is causing misery to himself, no micromanagement from you is needed.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (-1, Flamebait)

superwiz (655733) | about 9 months ago | (#45258159)

One of the rules for thinking for yourself while not being a lemming are #2: realize that a man's hatred or love of a group of people has nothing to do with the factual truth of what is being said. #1 is to let racism or ethnocentrism be HIS problem and stop anointing yourself the arbiter of all that is righteous.

That's cute and all, except European antisemitism is as endemic and as ingrained in their culture as racism is in America. It's a cultural no-no, but it's often still the guttural reaction of choice. And criticizing Israel is the natural outlet for this reaction. That is not to say that Israel doesn't have problems of its own that are worth criticism, but it certainly doesn't deserve all the shit it gets.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258185)

That is not to say that Israel doesn't have problems of its own that are worth criticism, but it certainly doesn't deserve all the shit it gets.

You can probably say that about any other country, too.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (5, Informative)

N1AK (864906) | about 9 months ago | (#45259005)

Israel deserves all the shit it gets and more, not because they are Jewish but because what they are doing shouldn't be tolerated from any country.

Find me a western country with half as much anti-Jewish sentiment as there is anti-Islamic sentiment in Israel and I'd happily ignore their opinion on the matter.

What I don't understand is why it can be stated, without being blanket refuted, that Israel is hated because Jews live there. Hell, if anything, I would think that the correlation is the other way. The actions of Israel may be fuelling hatred or at least dislike of Jews in some cases because people see what Israel does and make the false assumption that as Israelis are mostly Jews the actions of Israel are representative of Jews.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (4, Insightful)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about 9 months ago | (#45258297)

One of the rules for thinking for yourself while not being a lemming are #2: realize that a man's hatred or love of a group of people has nothing to do with the factual truth of what is being said. #1 is to let racism or ethnocentrism be HIS problem and stop anointing yourself the arbiter of all that is righteous.

That's cute and all, except European antisemitism is as endemic and as ingrained in their culture as racism is in America. It's a cultural no-no, but it's often still the guttural reaction of choice. And criticizing Israel is the natural outlet for this reaction. That is not to say that Israel doesn't have problems of its own that are worth criticism, but it certainly doesn't deserve all the shit it gets.

Nonsense. Criticism of Israel is not evidence of anti-semitism--period. If somebody criticizes Israel by saying "all Jews should drop dead" that's not "criticizing Israel," that's racism. A reasoned set of criticisms not based on the race or religion of Israelis (i.e. you can safely ignore as racism anything that attempts to use the word "Jew" as a pejorative,) is not "anti-semitism."

I didn't imply any such thing in my OP, you inferred the lot of it.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0, Flamebait)

i kan reed (749298) | about 9 months ago | (#45258913)

No, it's not evidence of antisemitism, but antisemitism frequently leads to it. There are racists. They do hate Israel just because it's officially Jewish. Those people make it actively harder to criticize a country that is presently engaged in ethnic cleansing.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258639)

I don't think you know much about Europe. Antisemitism in Europe is not endemic nor culturally ingrained. It was a hundred years ago, but now it is only anecdotal in European culture. Events like l'affaire Dreyfus slowly killed cultural antisemitism. Now, because of WW2, being antisemitic in Europe is associated with being fascist... and the witch hunt against fascism is still on. Do not confuse a more neutral attitude toward Israel as antisemitism.

The only ones in Europe who are clearly against Jewish people are Muslim immigrants. Which bring me to another point... The real hatred in Europe is against Muslims (in my opinion, this hatred is somewhat justified, but that's another question).

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45257999)

The Jews are systematically trying to control our banks and media. It's not a conspiracy anymore.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (3, Insightful)

superwiz (655733) | about 9 months ago | (#45258165)

Pretty sure everyone is trying to control the banks and the media. You might as well try to argue that Jews are trying to control Physics. Many try. They succeed.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258283)

Then again, nobody has been able to change the laws of physics. The laws governing money and finance, however...

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258007)

Pardon me but the ONLY rule for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-semite is... not criticizing Israel.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258095)

You are LITERALLY hitler.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258415)

Thanks to Google, I'm no longer certain if you mean LITERALLY-LITERALLY or LITERALLY-FIGURATIVELY Hitler.

'You are FIGURATIVELY Hitler' just doesn't have the same punch to it.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (5, Insightful)

Richard_at_work (517087) | about 9 months ago | (#45258357)

Pardon me but the ONLY rule for criticizing Israel while not getting branded an anti-semite is... not criticizing Israel.

Fixed that for you. And I'm serious - this isn't about actual antisemitism, it's about suppression of criticism by claiming racism.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

causality (777677) | about 9 months ago | (#45258525)

Pardon me but the ONLY rule for criticizing Israel while not getting branded an anti-semite is... not criticizing Israel.

Fixed that for you. And I'm serious - this isn't about actual antisemitism, it's about suppression of criticism by claiming racism.

It's standard fare in politics sadly. If you want immigration laws (even just existing ones on the books) to be enforced, you're racist against Mexicans (an accusation made by people who have never reviewed Mexico's much stricter immigration laws!). If you criticize Israel, you're an anti-Semite. If you're against President Obama's politics or Eric Holder's actions, you're racist against black people. Etc etc. I wonder what such people would say if we ever developed a real problem with millions of white Canadians illegally entering the country, but I digress.

It's a cheap way to shut down all reasonable discussion and put the other person immediately on the defensive, trying to disprove a negative. It comes from people who don't want reason and logic to enter into the discussion because these are threats to their position, a position based on self-interest and not based on what makes good policy or which view is closest to the truth.

A side-effect I consider intentional is that the obsession with group identity is a direct assault on the concept of individuality. Real individuality is a strong threat to the main method of politics today, which is to divide people into multiple groups and gain power by promising to protect each from the others.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

ub3r n3u7r4l1st (1388939) | about 9 months ago | (#45258673)

"It comes from people who don't want reason and logic to enter into the discussion because these are threats to their position, a position based on self-interest and not based on what makes good policy or which view is closest to the truth. "

+1. Trying to steer towards a hidden agenda while making you look like Mother Teresa.

I suggest pick up the book "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258771)

I suggest pick up the book "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein.

He's an antisemite, and so are you for recommending his book.
Anyone who thinks this post is funny is an antisemite, too.
All others as well.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (2)

cbeaudry (706335) | about 9 months ago | (#45258967)

Norman Finkelstein is Jewish.

You are proving the point that any criticism regarding Israel gets you branded as anti-semite, regardless of origin or content.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (4, Informative)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about 9 months ago | (#45258119)

One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock...

There is only one rule for that; preface every criticism of Israel with the following:

"Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, but..."

For example:

Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, bit it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (2, Insightful)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about 9 months ago | (#45258207)

One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock...

There is only one rule for that; preface every criticism of Israel with the following:

"Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, but..."

For example:

Don't get me wrong, I love Jon Stewart, bit it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

This times a million: Distract from the actual legitimate criticism of the NSA (that it would have been better used to track down wall street swine who committing multiple felonies and should have been liable for thousands of years of prison time) by accusing the speaker of an invented anti-semitism.

Congratulations: Goebbels would be proud.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258321)

This is a perfect example of how ideology clouds peoples' judgment and prevents us from rationally discussing the issue at hand, instead producing knee-jerk reactions such as "Israel = Satan", "Israel = Saints", etc.

Re: Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

lightknight (213164) | about 9 months ago | (#45258431)

Remind me...why are they so easily offended?

Re: Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about 9 months ago | (#45258635)

Remind me...why are they so easily offended?

*shrug* try asking them.

Were I to wager a guess, I'd say they don't actually have as thin of skin as they portend to*, but as I said before, pull the race card at every given opportunity because it's handy and convenient - nobody** wants to be thought of as an anti-semite, do they?

* I of course refer to the Israeli gov't when I say this; I've known some Israeli people in my day, and they were just like the people I've met from any other culture: interestingly varied.

** Excluding obvious, overtly anti-semetic groups.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45258619)

... it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

Many people use anti-Zionism against Israel as a cloak for anti-Semitism.

The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews [nytimes.com]

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about 9 months ago | (#45258921)

... it seems to me the Israeli government uses Judaism as a weapon against their detractors, since nobody can say anything about Israel's bad behavior without being accused of anti-semitism.

Many people use anti-Zionism against Israel as a cloak for anti-Semitism.

The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews [nytimes.com]

Yes, but it's also true that many people who claim that anti-Zionism is a cloak for anti-Semitism use it as a club to bash Israel's detractors, regardless of the legitimacy of the complaints.

Basically, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. Point being, just because someone points out the bad behavior of the Israeli government does not make them defacto anti-Semites.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about 9 months ago | (#45258181)

One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock is #2: not to relate your statement to a conspiracy by banks(because stereotypes).

#1 is not to deny the holocaust, but you didn't do that, so congratulations.

One of the rules for not being a sheep is not to let other people's prejudices get in the way of legitimate criticisms of Israel, Wall Street, or anybody else. The perception, that i was connecting the two, is a result of your prejudice, not mine. I made a suggestion for a better use of such spying authority--i.e. point it at actual criminals, not private citizens. You made the leap to some sort of "conspiracy" of Wall Street and Israel.

So take yourself to task for being an anti-semite.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258211)

Rule #1 for not looking anti-Semitic is to know what a semite is, take a look:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite
You see, Arabs are also semites, so Israel looks quite anti-Semitic if you take that on account.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

i kan reed (749298) | about 9 months ago | (#45258785)

I know what a Semitic person is, but "antisemitic" is a term with a clearly understood cultural meaning. Languages evolve. Get over it.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258371)

#1 is not to deny the holocaust

Nobody should flat-out deny the Holocaust. Large parts of it are actually true.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258475)

One of those rules for criticizing Israel while not seeming like an anti-Semitic cock is...

Why would you think this is one of his concerns?

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | about 9 months ago | (#45258983)

Where did he mention the banks? All he said was they should've spied on Wall Street to get evidence for convictions; presumably for the largest financial scandal in US history. You basically back up the fallacy that criticizing Israel will be turned into an antisemitic rant.

He made no mention or illusion of evil Jewish people running our banks, or whatever that conspiracy is.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about 9 months ago | (#45259009)

I guess my benefit of the doubt doesn't extend quite as far as yours.

Turds came out my ASS! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45257879)

I just took a big, nasty, stinking SHIT. It was GLORIOUS!

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

TheCarp (96830) | about 9 months ago | (#45257899)

Right because Isreal is totally the innocent undertaker, who came to the Big Bad US looking for justice that he couldn't get through normal means :)

If I was going to use a Godfather analogy I would go more for:

If Don Corleone had all the judges, and the politicians in New York, then he must share them, or let us others use them. He must let us draw the water from the well. Certainly he can present a bill for such services; after all... we are not Communists."

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about 9 months ago | (#45258463)

Right because Isreal is totally the innocent undertaker, who came to the Big Bad US looking for justice that he couldn't get through normal means :)

If I was going to use a Godfather analogy I would go more for:

If Don Corleone had all the judges, and the politicians in New York, then he must share them, or let us others use them. He must let us draw the water from the well. Certainly he can present a bill for such services; after all... we are not Communists."

I never viewed the undertaker as "innocent," not in the least. I'm surprised to hear you say you did: He was a coward who wanted violence done without having to risk committing it himself--but I don't think that makes him "innocent," not in the least. He contracted for retribution from a murderous mob-boss.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

TheCarp (96830) | about 9 months ago | (#45258811)

He contracted retribution because the so-called justice system failed him. Those cock suckers walked free from court the same day, they even smiled at him. They got off after beating his daughter for resisting their attempt to rape her.

I find no fault at all with him.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about 9 months ago | (#45258917)

He contracted retribution because the so-called justice system failed him. Those cock suckers walked free from court the same day, they even smiled at him. They got off after beating his daughter for resisting their attempt to rape her.

I find no fault at all with him.

"I don't blame him" and "innocent" are two different things.

I'm not saying I might not have pursued similar course of action in the same circumstances, but he was clearly far from innocent. How would he be connected enough to the mob to ask such a favor in the first place? You don't just "show-up" uninvited at the Don's daughter's wedding...

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about 9 months ago | (#45257913)

It's too bad that system wasn't trained on the charlatans on Wall Street so their crimes could have been accounted for and punished.

Think about that for a second......

It shouldn't be hard to understand now.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (3, Insightful)

TapeCutter (624760) | about 9 months ago | (#45258241)

It's too bad that system wasn't trained on the charlatans on Wall Street

Um, hello? The Snowden revelations are almost exclusively about "economic espionage", the headlines are about who's phones were tapped and which boardrooms were bugged. "Wall street" are the people who want this data and the MI complex are delivering it to them on a silver platter. Why the fuck would they want to point a gun at their own head?

There is no conspiracy, just like minded people playing golf and screwing everyone they can, including each other, this sort of spying has been going on forever and it's not going away. Having said that and given the history of the 20th century, you would have to be a fool to be unconcerned when the NSA appear before congress and either lie or refuse to answer questions, then walk away with their career intact. That is a clear sign the MI complex is telling congress to go fuck itself (in polite political language). Whatever the pro/cons of the argument, the current belligerence of these people is a threat to the rule of law and a wedge that will polarise international relations..

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

causality (777677) | about 9 months ago | (#45258609)

It's a shame that Congress doesn't grow a pair of balls and press criminal charges against the liars.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258711)

Israel paid for their french nukes by spying on France?

The Israeli military program started and probably reached actual weapons before Israel and the USA had the "special relationship" they have today. Back then, France was the closest ally of Israel, they also shared nuclear technology with Israel and even built the (research) reactor in Soreq for Israel in 57.

Re:Who Says they Never Paid for those Nukes... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258925)

Edward Teller openly admitted to traveling to Israel and teaching them how to refine plutonium and build a hydrogen bomb. He briefed the CIA on this after the fact.

It's basically the same thing as Fuchs giving away the designs to the Soviet Union, only Fuchs ended up going to prison whereas Teller got to design the SDI satellites and retire in comfort. But hey, Cold War realpolitik was weird like that.

Enough already... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45257819)

We KNOW all about the intercepts now, why is it a headline everytime The Guardian throws-out a new "discovery"?

Re:Enough already... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45257885)

Because the brave journalists with integrity who aren't shills to the broader agenda are staggering their releases over a period of time to keep this in the public eye, the story would be buried with another Miley Cyrus or school shooting distraction if they blew their wad all at once. They are doing the right thing, fighting the good fight, and discrediting and bringing light to the corporatist warmongering pigs and the crypto-Zionists pulling their strings.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Enough already... (1)

Pumpkin Tuna (1033058) | about 9 months ago | (#45258559)

Oh please. They are staggering the releases to do maximum harm to the U.S. and to keep their own names in the news longer. It's showing their blatant anti-us bias more than anything.

Re:Enough already... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258593)

Stop using that signature, I am the real Ethanol-fueled!
Don't listen to the impostor above.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Enough already... (1)

Sarten-X (1102295) | about 9 months ago | (#45258863)

You know, all this confusion could be avoided by having an account and signing in.

-- Ethanol-fueled (Not a signature, just a statement of my condition)

Re:Enough already... (1)

cold fjord (826450) | about 9 months ago | (#45258885)

... the corporatist warmongering pigs and the crypto-Zionists pulling their strings.

I've heard things like that before. You think the ^wJews Zionist are behind it all? Yes, I think I hear music, I'm just not sure if it's from a play like this [youtube.com] , or a parade like that [youtube.com] .

The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews [nytimes.com]

If you are the real "Ethanol-fueled," it's time for treatment.

Re:Enough already... (1)

Austrian Anarchy (3010653) | about 9 months ago | (#45257943)

We KNOW all about the intercepts now, why is it a headline everytime The Guardian throws-out a new "discovery"?

Eyeballs.

Re:Enough already... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45257949)

Keith, is that you?

Re:Enough already... (1)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | about 9 months ago | (#45257973)

We know - yes. Now we want political and legal action, arrests and all round justice served across at last count 35 countries at the very least. That has not happened yet, most countries are feigning outrage by have not tasked their justice system to start prosecuting all those traitors in and out of the telecoms industry hat have helped violated their respective countries sovereignty, or in the US case our constitution and various other laws, lying to congress etc.

My question is: Where are all the nationalistic flag waving types now - usually they are very vocal when our constitution is violated on such a massive scale, or various countries National security is violated in such a brazen systematic way. Has the French right wing press (for example) not turned on the heat to mobilize their outrage - why not?

Re:Enough already... (1)

jobsagoodun (669748) | about 9 months ago | (#45258069)

er... this is /.'s report on these reports - you're going to have to read the dupes too!

Re:Enough already... (1)

Karl Cocknozzle (514413) | about 9 months ago | (#45258071)

We KNOW all about the intercepts now, why is it a headline everytime The Guardian throws-out a new "discovery"?

Correction... WE know all about the intercepts now. But the mass audience the Guardian wants to reach isn't as well informed. Also, they appear to be attempting to leverage pressure from both internal targets of the NSA (i.e. citizens of the United States) and inappropriate external ones to exert more pressure on the government to do the right thing.

Re:Enough already... (1)

causality (777677) | about 9 months ago | (#45258647)

Correction... WE know all about the intercepts now. But the mass audience the Guardian wants to reach isn't as well informed.

What that puerile bitch Snookie is up to (and like-minded garbage) is sadly much more important to them.

The minority who try their best to be aware don't deserve to reap what the majority have sown.

As Jon Stewart said recently... (3, Funny)

Noryungi (70322) | about 9 months ago | (#45257859)

The US NSA is the very first thing you are looking for in a good partner: a good listener!

This is becoming better and better all the time...

Re:As Jon Stewart said recently... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258001)

There's a world of difference between a good listener and a stalker.

Old tune (2, Insightful)

hebertrich (472331) | about 9 months ago | (#45257911)

We all know the Israeli secret services are total bastards , they killed Arafat spy on everyone etc .. We all know the NSA is again total bastards that stop at nothing. What we need to know is how to defeat them and pull the reins back in and get back in control of those gone rogue agencies that have respect for neither Constitution ,Law nor Country . The secret services play by a different set of rules .. you have the right to do everything , as long as you don't get caught .
They got caught , yet face none of the consequences. Game over. Total surveillance is now a reality and that's it. As long as noone marches in on the capitals around the world by the millions , why should they change anything ? Noone opposes . Thank you George Orwell ... but your warning ,in the end , changed nothing.

Re:Old tune (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258183)

Here's your answer: Israel is not one of USA states, and won't be "reined back in control" by US constitution. If someone in Mossad think that it's good idea to spy on whatever French politician, my advise to him/her - "go ahead". That's what we maintain Mossad for, you know.
Now, I don't know about US, but in Israel there are actually real terrorists. The kind of "blow buses/shoot on cars/plant bombs". And yes, I would like to see them all caught and/or executed.

Re:Old tune (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258497)

Now, I don't know about US, but in Israel there are actually real terrorists. The kind of "blow buses/shoot on cars/plant bombs". And yes, I would like to see them all caught and/or executed.

In your opinion, should the Mossad agents who plant car bombs (e.g. in Iran) also be caught and/or executed, or is that a completely different thing because of the Holocaust(tm)?

Re:Old tune (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258681)

And yes, I would like to see them all caught and/or executed.

Because that wouldn't just create more terrorists.

That is the thing with terrorism, when you take extreme measures you only create more.

Re:Old tune (1)

FridayBob (619244) | about 9 months ago | (#45258749)

...What we need to know is how to defeat them and pull the reins back in and get back in control of those gone rogue agencies that have respect for neither Constitution ,Law nor Country...

That may be a tall order in some other countries, but in the United States the way to do it is with Article Five of the Constitution, which says that there are two ways to alter that document, the second one being a national convention assembled at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds (min. 34) of the 50 states, after which the change must be ratified by at least three-fourths (min. 38) of the states.

Article V is a powerful tool that way included specifically to bypass a corrupt Congress. We need to use it now to get money out of politics, which is ultimately reason for our dysfunctional Congress. Our representatives no longer work for us: they work for the big corporations, such as Booz Allen Hamilton (BAH), the company that developed the PRISM program for the NSA. BAH earns almost all of its money from US government contracts, and it is extremely likely that they annually spend millions of their earnings to legally bribe our politicians in order to keep those contracts coming. This situation has become a gigantic self-licking ice cream cone that must be stopped.

If this makes sense to you, I would suggest signing this petition: WOLF-PAC [wolf-pac.com] . Launched in October 2011 for the purpose of passing a 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that will end corporate personhood* and publicly finance all elections**. Article V is necessary because Congress won't pass such an Amendment on its own, but already many states have reacted with enthusiasm, notably Texas. If successful, we should see a much more respectable group of politicians emerge within one or two election cycles -- a group that can be trusted to put an end to this huge spying scandal.

.

*) The aim is not to end legal personhood for corporations, but natural personhood. The latter became a problem following the Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission ruling, which granted some of the rights of natural persons to corporations and makes it easier for them to lend financial support to political campaigns.

**) At the State level, more than half of all political campaigns are already publicly financed in some way, so there would be nothing strange about doing the same for political campaigns for federal office.

PS -- If we do succeed in using Article V for this purpose, it won't be the first time it was used. The reason we can directly elect our senators today is because Nebraska started calling for an Article V Convention way back in in 1893.

Not a big surprise (1, Insightful)

smooth wombat (796938) | about 9 months ago | (#45257925)

Considering how much spying Israel does on the U.S., and all the secrets they've stolen from us in exchange for unequivocal support at the UN, and then ask to have their spies returned to them because they're "heroes", this shouldn't surprise anyone.

Why all of this surprise? (4, Insightful)

Austrian Anarchy (3010653) | about 9 months ago | (#45257929)

From these "world leaders" to journalists, why all of the 'surprise?' Spying is one of the things that governments do, ALL of them. They ALL spy on their allies and foes alike and it has always been this way. In the US/Israel context, we both spy on each other all day, every day, and assist with information on other countries too. France does the same thing, so does England. Nothing new here.

Re:Why all of this surprise? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258195)

I'm sure canabalistic societies use similar arguments when confronted by non-canabalistic ones.

You also seem to be conflating governments with their people.

It would seem that most people actually find this behaviour disgusting.

Of course, you could be arguing that governments shouldn't care about the wishes of its people?

Re:Why all of this surprise? (1)

Sarten-X (1102295) | about 9 months ago | (#45258271)

Remember how the US started throwing political trouble at France after 9/11, when we found out they were selling weapons to our enemies? And remember how we've been poking fun at the Russians for years because of their Soviet history? And remember how we've been complaining about Chinese manufacturing and work conditions while still buying their products?

Everyone else remembers.

Our attitude since the Cold War has been that we are perfect infallible masters of all things political. No revolutions, a stable economy, and generally widespread support for our military. Now we've been caught with our hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, so it's a convenient excuse to vent the frustrations of the past few decades. The US has fallen from its pedestal, and now every country we've ever embarrassed has free reign to do the same right back to us. Of course everyone's spying on everyone, including their own citizens, but we're the ones who got caught.

Re:Why all of this surprise? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258367)

Mind you,... not everyone lives in a police state like yours...

Some of us live in countries where the spy agencies have little capabilities if any.

Btw. don't ever again dare to talk about democracy and freedom in the USA...

Re:Why all of this surprise? (1)

T.E.D. (34228) | about 9 months ago | (#45258877)

This is exactly right.

Of course part of the continual mutual spying is that whenever one country screws up and gets caught spying on an ally, the government of the "victim" has to feign outrage. Public opinion demands it, and a politician either rides the wave, or gets smashed against the rocks by it.

So there's really no point in trying to point out that "everyone does it" to people expressing outrage about spying. Just let the kibuki theater proceed at its own pace. Its nature's way.

Snowden claims he isn't hurting American interests (0)

schneidafunk (795759) | about 9 months ago | (#45257969)

I understand his reasons for releasing information about domestic spying, but what good reason does he have for releasing information about spying on the international scene?

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45257995)

Because the world != US only, and yes, we care.

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (1)

Overzeetop (214511) | about 9 months ago | (#45258013)

Because...Fuck You!

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258105)

trollolol. whine harder fatty.

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258089)

Snowden handed a large set of documents to a few journalists with explicit instructions on how to get it out there without doing unnecessary harm, actually. We won't see this information harming active surveillance or active efforts.

But 'international scene' makes it sound like you think the French are legitimate espionage targets. When they are almost the only state willing to follow you militarily into Syria, it is perhaps not a good idea for it to be shown your intelligence agency is eavesdropping on them. It begins to look like manipulation.

It's good for Europe to know how much not to trust you. It's somewhat hilarious to us in the UK that it was ever even a remote possibility that David Cameron might have been spied on; couldn't they just have phoned and demanded he tell them what they want?

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (1)

schneidafunk (795759) | about 9 months ago | (#45258299)

I do in fact consider France a legitimate target. They spy on the U.S. as well.

"L'Express, the French news magazine, citing intelligence sources in both Paris and Washington, disclosed the French spying operation. It described the cases involving IBM and Texas Instruments, which reportedly took place between 1987 and 1989. The report said that much of the spying was aimed at helping France's Groupe Bull. "
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/14/news/14iht-spy_.html [nytimes.com]

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (2)

Vintermann (400722) | about 9 months ago | (#45258627)

Spied. You had to go back 20+ years.

Sure, other nations have their skeletons in the closet too. But you know, it doesn't justify lying to them. If the Germans are such vile dogs as to deserve no privacy from the US, then let them know. Don't pretend you are the best of friends and would never consider such an act.

If there is no trust between you, very well, state that fact and let it be at that. But if you pretend there's trust, expect reactions when that trust is shown to be broken.

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (1)

schneidafunk (795759) | about 9 months ago | (#45258873)

So you think they suddenly stopped? Here's one from 2009. http://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business [france24.com]

While they are making a public fuss, France and Germany are not really surprised the U.S. is spying on them, just as we are not surprised they spy on us. Business is still pushed forward as usual.

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258093)

I don't know what Snowden's reasons are, but the rest of the world thanks him for giving us proof of what is going on.

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258113)

there IS not good reason. It's The Guardian trying to stir-up shit and get readership.

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258125)

And actually he isn't. He may be hurting the interests of the powerful in the USA. Not those of the people.

If, and once this mess is cleared, the rest of the world might hold citizens of the USA in higher esteem. I know I'm looking forward to it.

So, citizens of the USA: grab this chance. Show that you mean your values, that those values aren't just some marketing terms buried in an old and smelly document.

Go for it!

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258137)

It's because Snowden doesn't consider those without US citizenship as subhumans, like you do.

Re:Snowden claims he isn't hurting American intere (5, Insightful)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about 9 months ago | (#45258151)

I understand his reasons for releasing information about domestic spying, but what good reason does he have for releasing information about spying on the international scene?

Because he's not just an upstanding, patriotic American, he's an upstanding, patriotic human.

Reaction Inversely Proportional to Size of Truth (1)

Phoenix666 (184391) | about 9 months ago | (#45258019)

The thing about all this is, the speed of the reaction is inversely proportional to the size of the truth. When a reality star is caught with drugs, the reaction is instantaneous. When Congress self-destructs, it takes months and years for the reaction and its consequences to fully unfold. What we're talking about here is the ripping away of the entire illusion under which we've been living the past 60 years. It's big, and most people don't even want to try to wrap their heads around what it means; but denial won't make it go away. This is a turning point in history, mark my words.

From here, more forward-thinking people and groups will begin moving in different directions than before and when the changes come they will be breath-taking. Recall the fall of the Berlin Wall. Glasnost and Perestroika had been going on for years at that point under Gorbachev, and suddenly in the space of a few weeks the Berlin Wall fell, and nearly every country locked away behind the Iron Curtain was free. It took another two years for Romania and Russia to sort themselves out, but they did.

What shape will those changes take, exactly? Who knows. But eventually Washington DC must fall and its masters brought to justice. We may suffer through a true police state with gulags before then, but eventually we will have a new social compact. I hope that the reset is clean, with none of the old masters surviving into the new system. Those sociopaths threaten the entire species.

Re:Reaction Inversely Proportional to Size of Trut (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258085)

Yeah, Russia sure sorted itself out, what with Tsar Vladimir's sham elections and everything.

Oh, but they changed their flag back to the old European-style tricolor instead of the big red one, so that makes everything okay.

Re:Reaction Inversely Proportional to Size of Trut (1)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about 9 months ago | (#45258267)

When Congress self-destructs,

Ah, to dream the impossible dream...

Hate to tell ya, bud, but all that 'self-destruction' we've seen of late is nothing but partisan brinkmanship, and has all become just another part of the political game; you can tell by the fact that congresscritters are still on TV blaming each other, rather than hiding from the lynch mobs, in fear for their lives.

I will say, I learned something from this latest government shutdown - we, the People, don't really seem to need feds quite as much as the try and convince us we do.

RTFA! Le Monde does NOT say Israel spied on France (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258023)

If you read the actual source, all it says is that the NSA did not ask Israel whether it was responsible for the tapping.

Even the Le Monde article, a commentary on the source material, does not claim that Israel targeted the french. The strongest statement that Le Monde makes regarding Israel is: "The NSA does not say that the Mossad carried out the attack but nevertheless, seems to consider it necessary to mention the existence of a reasonable doubt as regards the Jewish state."

Thanks Antiwar for another misleading article deliberately trying to blame Israel for something there is no evidence of.

Re:RTFA! Le Monde does NOT say Israel spied on Fra (0)

EmagGeek (574360) | about 9 months ago | (#45258615)

You'll never stop the anti-Semitic Ron Paul dick-sucking brigades from blaming everything on Israel.

US did it, read the whole article (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258025)

Read the last lines.
"The American authorities noted that the activities of the intelligence service "were carried out according to law"."

It's almost like a confession from the US.

Main article says, France evidence points to USA. US denies it. US says it asked 1st and 2nd party countries if they did it, they say no. It did not ask Israel because Israel won't talk to US about France.

Hence finger points to Israel. Israel denies it.

Occams razor.
Look, the evidence says it was US, US spied on Merkel, US practically confesses when asked "it was done legally" and has all the tools and bases and so on.

NSA.

Re:US did it, read the whole article (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258911)

Hush, don't spoil the party.

Israel's at fault, whether it's true or not.

Don't you remember the Dreyfus Affair? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258049)

This is yellow journalism. When you have actual facts (which engineers and nerds actually thrive on) please re-post.

right (3, Interesting)

superwiz (655733) | about 9 months ago | (#45258111)

So this is the "let's accuse the Israelies so that the US would have no choice but to admit that it was really us" trick? Thanks. I think I already saw that episode of West Wing.

freedom isn't free (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258161)

freedom isn't free kids... get used to the price for not wearing a burka.

no surprise (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258179)

Human rights abuses, from a regime that has ethnically cleansed most of the population of Palestine. Is that really a surprise?

Yawn (1)

blanddragon (713514) | about 9 months ago | (#45258353)

So. /.ers should know better than most the the sheeple do not pay attention to security, except for trying to do an end run around it because they can't watch the YouTube vid at work... People posting to FB tells us more than most want to know, and they do freely This is a straw-man story again.

Jewish Supremacy (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258541)

They are above ALL laws. Gentiles will always be their slaves unless we finally rise, resist and purge this cancer.

Re:Jewish Supremacy (1)

Pumpkin Tuna (1033058) | about 9 months ago | (#45258637)

You got the anonymous coward part right. Go dryclean your hood.

Re:Jewish Supremacy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258957)

Hmm, white supremacism vs Jewish supremacism... I don't think I like either of them.

Why shouldn't they pay an agency they own? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258737)

I don't understand your surprise.

Say it ain't so! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#45258753)

Not 'precious' Israel! They can do no wrong!

Helped? (2)

wonkey_monkey (2592601) | about 9 months ago | (#45258793)

Israel Helped the NSA Spy on Former French President According To Documents

Where does it say Israel helped the NSA? The French accused the US, the US denied it, asked everyone else about it (except the Israelis) and everyone else denied it as well. Right?

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