Taiwan Protests Apple Maps That Show Island As Province of China 262
itwbennett writes "Taiwan is demanding Apple revise its mapping software and remove a label that describes the island as a province of China, rather than as a sovereign state. The complaint was lodged after local media reports said that users on the island had noticed the change in Apple's latest iOS and Mac OS versions. 'The maps don't acknowledge Taiwan as its own nation. We voiced our disapproval, and hope Apple will make the change,' an official with Taiwan's foreign ministry said Wednesday. This isn't the first time such a mistake was made. Google also labeled Taiwan as a Chinese province in 2005."
Not a mistake (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not a mistake. China's market is far more lucrative than Taiwan's for Apple, and since they have to choose which one to piss off....
Re:Not a mistake (Score:5, Informative)
In theory they don't have to choose. They could show different things depending on which country the user sets the OS to.
Given that Taiwan's standard script is "Traditional Chinese" script and most of China uses "Simplified", there is additional motivation for Taiwanese to select "Taiwan" for their OS. And the Taiwanese who set their OS to China[1].
Hong Kong and Macau might use "Traditional" too but they can select the correct location if they want.
[1] Note there's a diff between Peoples Republic of China vs Republic of China (Taiwan) etc. ;)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
In practice, though, who they have to satisfy are the governments of the two nations, not the peoples therein.
And government operatives read the news too.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, they do. It's like saying "You can put a nude scene on the disk, and lock it in countries where the censors won't approve".
No .. you can't. Because someone will find a way to bypass your safeguards, and the censors will be angry. It's not a "cultural sensitivity" thing, it's a "this product will get banned from import" kind of thing.
Re: (Score:2)
Came here to say this...easy choice.
Taiwan, just do what you usually do: Just keep quiet and let China believe they own you while you do your own thing.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That issue can be solved easily by using a regional system. So apart from locale, you can just follow national standards for things as defined borders, etc. For instance, in Google Maps in Argentina, you could see the Falklands labeled as Malvinas, while in the UK version you could see the Malvinas labeled Falklands. Same deal for the rest of places in dispute. No more controversy.
Re: (Score:2)
Google is simply agreeing with both of them - it's one China. Let the governments sort out which one holds the legitimate claim to everything. Only if the RoC formally gives up any claim to the mainland will they have a complaint.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Serious consequences (Score:5, Funny)
The mistake is more important than one may think at first, because Taiwan is one of the places the navigator will take you through in the path from your home to the local grocery store.
Re: (Score:2)
Mine just says "Formosa." Isn't that a cheese?
Re: (Score:2)
Mine just says "Formosa." Isn't that a cheese?
It's a historical term from the Portuguese name Ilha Formosa [wikipedia.org], meaning "Beautiful Island".
Re: (Score:2)
Province or nation? (Score:2)
If the map says Taiwan (ROC) is a nation, that will offend mainland China (PRC). If the map says Taiwan is a province of PRC, that offends Taiwan.
Really, they're screwed either way.
At $work, we are mandated to call ROC a "region". That's as accurate as we can go without offending anyone.
Re:Province or nation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
When you are not in mainland China or Taiwan what does it say? I doubt Chinese government would accept that as they have a problem with Taiwan being displayed as a separate country to anyone in the world.
Re: (Score:2)
you label it on chosen locale of the phone - that locale dictates what the countries are called anyways.
it becomes complicated of course, since you have to eventually go as far as to check what every country the locale might be set to thinks about the issue.
OR they could just go the easy way and say that they called Taiwan and they said they were a sovereign country and that be the end of that. eventually china has to concede that it's a different country, since you can do that call from china too. or what
Re: (Score:2)
Well, there is a solution to this. Apple maps is used on a device with gps tracking, so when you are physically located in mainland China you can say that Taiwan is a province of China, and when you are in Taiwan you say that it's a separate nation. Problem solved, everyone happy except fishermen using the app. But get a real waterproof gps if you are on a boat.
Google and China are on "Fuck You" terms so I don't see why Google would bother making China happy.
Re: (Score:2)
This is about Apple Maps not Google Maps
Apple maps? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Apple developed their own mapping app and data over the course of the last 3-5 years....
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Some days it feels like it came from /dev/urandom...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Maps are never a fun job. Especially over disputed regions.
Hell, Microsoft had the problem when they allowed people to select the time zone using the map [msdn.com] (as may Linux distributions do these days). There were huge fights over a few pixels.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd like to see someone produce a map that shows Tibet as a separate country, label China as 'Greater Taiwan' or better still, as 'Taiwanese Beijing' (as a spoof on the IOC's label of Taiwan as 'Chinese Taipei').
In the case of a timezone map the more obvious th
Re: (Score:2)
If the map says Taiwan (ROC) is a nation, that will offend mainland China (PRC).
Apple could have used GeoIP to give the politically correct answer inside China ... not sure if the great firewall is doing deep packet modification yet.
I don't think anybody outside China goes to China first when dealing with Taiwan.
Re: (Score:3)
Just use Google's solution: "Google also sparked anger on the island when the company's maps listed Taiwan as a Chinese province. Now the company's maps simply call the island Taiwan, adding nothing more."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Taiwan should just go to the UN and threaten to bombard China with Iranian nukes until the UN acknowledges them as a sovereign nation.
Really this dispute is so stupid that at this point I'd just launch every ICBM in Taiwan at Shanghai so we don't have to deal with it anymore.
Re: Province or nation? (Score:2)
Re:Province or nation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Facts aren't decided by politics. Can the Chinese government tell residents of Taiwan what to do? If not, then Taiwan is de facto independent.
Binary decision trees also tend to be of limited use in the real world: Does Beijing deliver the mail and fine you for traffic violations in Taiwan? No. Are there things that Taiwan could theoretically do; but never would because that would make China rage out? Quite possibly.
Re: (Score:3)
Even if Taiwan was a province of China they probably wouldn't do those things. Here in England, my local council fines me for traffic violations, and I've yet to see much evidence that anyone delivers the mail.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's common to lable these sorts of places as "governed by X, claimed by Y", "disputed" or something similar. Not difficult at all.
Or, even easier, just mark it as Norway or something.
WTF (Score:2)
Modded down in like ten minutes?
PSA: Don't make jokes about Norway until its the middle of the night there. Sheesh.
Re: (Score:2)
Taiwan is aa souverain nation!
According to who?
Re: (Score:2)
It would help if Taiwan declared itself an independent state. The rest of the world can't treat Taiwan as one until Taiwan stops farting around on this issue.
And if they change it they will still be wrong (Score:3)
Because the PRC has a billion potential customers who think Taiwan is a province of mainland China.
Re:And if they change it they will still be wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Correction: nobody actually thinks that. It's just the official government policy to refer to it that way.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, yes, they do. The Chinese government very definitely regards Taiwan as one of its provinces. Temporarily not under its control, of course, but rejoining the mainland is inevitable. I'm not saying that's true, or right, but there's no doubt they regard it that way.
Re: (Score:3)
ROC government headquartered in Taiwan thinks exactly the same thing. Mainland China is simply temporarily not under its control. Both governments view entirety of China, including mainland and island of Taiwan as their territory.
Re:And if they change it they will still be wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
Not really. The ROC government has for a long time only had seats for districts in Taiwan itself. Really, only the fear of a violent PRC reaction (an invasion would be unlikely but not unimaginable) keeps Taiwan from just declaring itself independent of the rest of China.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Very true, but in this case there's a strong nationalist strain of opinion among the people on this subject. If anything, they hold the idea of China's ownership of Taiwan even more strongly than the government does.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
And coerces the Chinese, to the point that we've had chinese developers walk away from projects that refused to bow to the Chinese version of reality (probably because they were afraid of repercusions if they didn't).
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, that is what governments do in general. The PRC doesn't just coerces the Chinese. Taiwan used to be in the UN until the PRC said "it's us or them."
Meanwhile, Taiwan and Chinese companies happily do business in the high-tech manufacturing industry.
Re:And if they change it they will still be wrong (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, they do. I remember telling a group of Chinese doctors that I thought it strange that Taiwan has its own currency, defense force, and government if it was part of China. Oh, China liberated Tibet from an oppressive regime, too.
Re: (Score:2)
Some of the British Colonies have their own currencies. All of them have their own governments.
Re:And if they change it they will still be wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Similarly, it doesn't matter if a billion customers think Taiwan is part of China. The real objective truth is Taiwan operates independently. The clue might be that the Taiwan Government is the one complaining.
Re: (Score:2)
Taiwan, like Tibet, is a part of China, and always has been. Just ask any PRC sockpuppet.
Editors? (Score:2)
Taiwan is demanding Apple revise its map data
FTFY. There is a difference between data and software and we should understand that.
Isn't this what the Taiwanese believe as well? (Score:5, Informative)
Both the government of the People's Republic of China (which controls the mainland) and the government of the Republic of China (which controls Taiwan) believe that Taiwan is a part of China. The two just disagree about who China's rightful government is. I realize that over the past 60 years Taiwan has grown more and more self-contained and has become a de facto state independent of China, but in theory there's nothing either side should object to in portraying Taiwan as part of China.
Re: (Score:3)
In another sense, China is a province of Taiwan. It just happens to be under the control of a band of rebels at present.
Re:Isn't this what the Taiwanese believe as well? (Score:5, Informative)
My wife was born in Taiwan. She and anyone in her family gets extremely angry if you refer to them as "Chinese," despite being ethnically Chinese, speaking Mandarin, etc. Good luck convincing her, her family, or frankly anyone else Tawainese I've ever met that they're "part of China" and that there is "nothing they should object to."
That said, this is a result of using ISO codes instead of FIPS codes. We had a customer escalation come through a while back about Taiwan being listed as a province of China in our geolocation information. We had switched from a FIPS 10-4 source to an ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 source, which ad the side effect of pissing off our Taiwanese customers.
Re: (Score:3)
"My wife was born in Taiwan. She and anyone in her family gets extremely angry if you refer to them as "Chinese," despite being ethnically Chinese, speaking Mandarin, etc."
My dad's wife is from Taiwan and is exactly the opposite. Although I never asked what she thought about Taiwan being a part of China.
Re:Isn't this what the Taiwanese believe as well? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
And yet the country calls itself "Zhnghuá Mínguó", which means "Republic of China".
Re: (Score:3)
Or, is she one of the 2% of pre-Chinese indigenous population?
Re: (Score:2)
"China" is just a western corruption of "Zhonghua" anyway The "Zh" is pronounched more like a "Ch" or "Jh" sound.
I did once upset an American friend by referring to "European Americans", in an attempt make the distinction from "African Americans" and "Native Americans". He didn't like that!
Re: (Score:3)
The annual independence vs unification poll [taipeitimes.com] was just released recently in Taiwan.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Having spent some time in Taiwan, the people there refer to themselves as Chinese, not Taiwanese. They don't speak Mandarin, they speak Chinese. Which is to say, their national identity is "Chinese" and that's what works for them. They also have a standing military t
Re:Isn't this what the Taiwanese believe as well? (Score:4, Insightful)
During the Cold War, there was a clear advantage - in the beginning, Beijing was allied to the Soviets, and later, even when they got divorced, they still were very independent of the US and ran against US interests all over - like support to North Korea, North Vietnam and so on. So it made sense for the US to still be wary of them, and treat them like an adversary, even though they were the China that the US recognized.
Now, the advantage of keeping Taiwan free is containing China. This is a country that's still expansionist, and has territorial disputes w/ most of its neighbors. Granted, the Taiwanese have the same views on things like Tibet, but if they were to ever take over Beijing, it would be easier to get them to allow places like Tibet to go free and not claim islands that are closer to Philippines.
Of course, if the world is gonna shift all its manufacturing to China, that ain't gonna happen. But it will be funny when China implodes, and there is a major shortage of products due to that
Re:Isn't this what the Taiwanese believe as well? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's actually a topic of controversy in the ROC today.
The ROC and the PRC, recall, were united for a time under Dr. Sun Yat Sen and they both claim the same territory as that original, united ROC claimed. That means both officially define Taiwan as a province of China, and themselves as the lawful government over all the provinces of China. This is not new.
But there is also a significant undercurrent of nativist and japanophile sentiment for independence in Taiwan, and not everyone agrees with that de jure interpretation. This faction is not new either and has actually become popular enough to control the government at least part of the time, so it's not hard to find officials asserting the very opposite. It's a very contentious issue. The apparent impossibility of liberating the PRC held territory, and a strong desire not to be absorbed by it, is probably a main cause of the increase in independence sentiment.
I dont live there and am not pretending to be an authority, just a sinophile sharing what I have observed.
Re:Isn't this what the Taiwanese believe as well? (Score:5, Interesting)
Both the government of the People's Republic of China (which controls the mainland) and the government of the Republic of China (which controls Taiwan) believe that Taiwan is a part of China. The two just disagree about who China's rightful government is. I realize that over the past 60 years Taiwan has grown more and more self-contained and has become a de facto state independent of China, but in theory there's nothing either side should object to in portraying Taiwan as part of China.
This is quite simplistic and as a result a little inaccurate. Taiwan has two major political camps, just like the US. They hate each other. The "pan blue" group is the KMT (currently in the majority and holding the presidency) and some aligned smaller parties. The "pan green" group is the DPP and some aligned smaller parties. The previous president was DPP. The problem is that the DPP in general are crazy, independence fanatics who want to announce at every opportunity that Taiwan is its own nation, even if they die as a result (they are not smart enough to realize this might happen). The KMT is more realistic, and reunification is truly their goal, yes, but not now. They look towards maybe 100 years or more in the future for that. China has to change a lot for them to agree to rejoin it. The KMT interprets "one China" in a very different way from China (they define "one China" basically as "Taiwan"). The problem is that the DPP dummies keep trying to say and do things that might get Taiwan invaded and the KMT is much better at playing the "Whatever you say, boss!" game. The DPP fails to recognize that some of what the KMT does (again, they are currently in charge of the government) is not sincere but just designed to placate China. So the DPP constantly accuses the KMT of "selling out" Taiwan to China and trying to secretly reunify them and the KMT fears that if the DPP ever got control of the government again (this is a very realistic possibility in the next presidential elections), their impatience would lead them to do something stupid and get Taiwan invaded. Given the recent posturing by China in the South China Sea, this is not a groundless fear.
Re:Isn't this what the Taiwanese believe as well? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, just to clarify things a little bit more, and to provide at least some defense to the DPP... while it's true that one of the planks of the DPP is complete independence and autonomy from China, to say that the DPP is "crazy, independence fanatics" is a bit disingenuous.
The majority of the DPP is actually pretty moderate, and while they philosophically would favor independence, they aren't willing to risk death, self-destruction, or losing favor in the international community in trying to do so. Si
Re: (Score:3)
Invaded? China doesn't own troop transport ships of meaningful size. They use cruise liners for simulation which couldn't possibly function against hostiles. What would they invade them with?
Re: (Score:2)
At the same time the two are hitched economically. The long and short of it is millions of jobs in mainland China are at Taiwanese owned companies. An outright war between the two would devastate the Chinese economy. You're seeing more and more Taiwanese companies hedge their bets with new factories in other parts of Asia, India and Latin America.
It's complicated.. (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
But if you want one of the most likely kick-off points for World War III it is the issue of Taiwanese independence..
Strange I always thought it would be "Macedonia" [wikipedia.org] that kicks off WW III
Because China matters, duh (Score:2)
And Taiwan doesn't.
"Mistake"? (Score:2)
I don't think this is a "mistake." Taiwan's status is an open question and Apple is probably choosing whichever side will benefit them more. Where's their bigger customer base, the island or the mainland?
Re:"Mistake"? (Score:4, Interesting)
It is also the position of 22 nations that Taiwan is a separate country.
Treaty of San Francisco (Score:5, Informative)
I suggest reading about the Treaty of San Francisco, Treaty of Taipei, and the Treaty of Shimonoseki before commenting about the Taiwan / PROC dispute...
The current status of Taiwan probably most similar to that of Germany. Where Germany was divided up into 4 zones after the war (US, UK, France, Russia), Taiwan is apparently effectively a US occupied zone until its fate is determined. It was recognized as an occupied territory of Japan before/during the war, but required that Japan relinquish control of Taiwan (and other territories acquired before the war) as a penalty for pre-war territorial aggressions. However, the treaty never specified to which government it was to go to (mainly because of the civil war between the ROC and the PROC which happened at the end of WWII).
The Treaty of Taipei (a separate peace treaty between Japan and the ROC, since abrogated by Japan when they recognized the PROC government), specifically ceded Taiwan to the ROC government. It's sort of a title to Taiwan that the ROC has waived around in the past, but it is unclear how the PROC ultimately winning the civil war affected the status of this document.
The US is pretty much in a conundrum. It could probably legally cede Taiwan to the PROC under the theory promulgated by the Treaty of San Francisco (give the island back to the country had it before Japan took it, this is what the UK wanted to do), or they can do nothing and claim that this is an internal issue between the ROC and PROC governments (I believe this is the continuing official US stance since the treaty), or they might twist the treaty wording and assert that Taiwan has the right to self-determination (which is of course what the US wants to do, but is opposed by the PROC and probably is too far a twist from a legal sense).
Originally, the US was sitting on its treaty status over Taiwan as part of a greater anti-communist sphere-of-influence policy. Now, it is probably merely attempting to get better terms for a PROC takeover by sitting on their hands until they get a deal that Taiwan is okay with. This has basically stalled because Taiwan doesn't appear that it would be happy with any PROC takeover (however, they are no-doubt looking at the Hong Kong 2-system situation with great interest).
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Ugh you are talking like Taiwan is a US territory. They are not like HK was, no US entities pick who runs Taiwan or how.
No Taiwan is not a US territory, that is why I said the closest analogy is with post WWII Germany (which wasn't a US, UK, French, or USSR territory either). It is technically a temporarily occupied territory.
Under well established precepts of international law (e.g., the Hauge convention of 1907), if you temporarily "occupy" a country as a result of a war (as opposed to annex a territory), the occupier (in this case the US) shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible
United Nations (Score:3)
"Taiwan, Province of China" is the official name used by the United Nations: http://www.unece.org/cefact/locode/service/location.html [unece.org]
Other companies also use this same name, such as ebay.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not particularly meaningful, given that totalitarian regimes are to the UN as the tea party is to the US Congress. They've got enough votes to accomplish a lot of things that don't make sense and they vote in blocks.
Easy fix. (Score:2)
In China, the maps should show Taiwan as a province of China.
In the rest of the civilized world, including Taiwan, the maps should show Taiwan as its own entity.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe if the Chinese weren't buying all the U.S. Megacorps (and everything else in the U.S.), this wouldn't be happening.
FTFY
Re: (Score:2)
The largest ever takeover of a US company by a Chinese company is number 213 on the Fortune 500- and this is evidence of China "buying all the U.S. Megacorps".
Seriously?
Re: (Score:2)
> Maybe if the Chinese weren't buying so many U.S. Megacorp products this wouldn't be happening.
FTFY
Re: (Score:2)
It matters very much if you're in Taiwan.
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, your claims are just nonsense.
Taiwan is its own country since WWII ended and certainly so since the early 1950s.
Taiwan cares a fuck about what is going on inside of mainland china.
Re: (Score:2)
Tell that to the government in Beijing. The only thing that has prevented mainland China from taking over Taiwan is direct confrontation with the US. So in a way, Taiwan is a "country" that exists because of the US, very much like South Ossetia exists because of Russia, but in fact it is still part of Georgia.
Re: (Score:2)
Regardless of the legal fantasies of the KMT, the majority of Taiwanese see themselves as independent (not just the DPP and the pan greens, but independence is only one issue, and people aren't going to ignore all of the domestic policy issues of the political spectrum just because of how they feel about independence, so there are quite a few KMT and pan blues who would
Re: (Score:3)
Re:A Breakaway Province (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A Breakaway Province (Score:4, Insightful)
You are wrong according to both Taiwanese and Chinese. Both view themselves as "China that has rights to controlling all of Chinese territory". I.e. Republic of China government that is located in Taiwan claims that entire mainland China is their territory and Taiwan is just one province.
People's Republic of China that is located on mainland has the exactly same claim. It's basically two different regimes that (mostly, discounting Mongolia issue) agree that China encompasses both Taiwan and mainland, but disagree on which government is legitimate one. This is because both claimed to be legitimate governments back in the days of civil war, and one side was simply pushed out of mainland and into Taiwan, but never finished off.
Even Taiwanese tend to forget this because official propaganda doesn't like to talk about this inconvenient truth. However you can check yourself both from history books, or even wikipedia and its sources.
Re: (Score:2)
No, it isn't. Beijing doesn't control anything that goes on in Taiwan, much as they'd like to. Yeah, they used to make hostile noises in the past whenever Taiwan spoke of formally declaring independence, but it ultimately didn't amount to much. But Taiwan controls everything of its own, including its foreign & defense policies - not something that can be said about the province of any country
Clearly you've never been to Texas.
Re: (Score:3)
Taiwan is recognized by 22 countries [wikipedia.org]. Many other countries have trade offices [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)