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Still in DMCA Prison

michael posted more than 13 years ago | from the you-can-get-a-good-meal dept.

Censorship 250

Let's go over the Sklyarov situation. Sklyarov is still in jail. In fact, he's still in Las Vegas, where he is being held without even a bail hearing, much less bail. The excuse given for not having a bail hearing when he was arrested on July 16 was that he was being immediately transferred to San Jose and would get a hearing there. Anyway, a recap of the protests: San Jose, more San Jose, New York, Seattle, Chicago writeup and Chicago pictures, Moscow writeup and Moscow photo and news coverage: New York Times, Business2.com. Wired has Washington's viewpoint - Representative Coble says "there have been very few complaints from intellectual property holders". Well, duh. Linuxplanet has an opinion piece exploring the Digital Millennium Rape Act. Finally EFF has written a letter to U.S. Attorney Mueller, asking for the U.S. to drop the charges against Sklyarov. It seems pretty doubtful that he will, since he won't want to be seen as soft on crime during his Senate confirmation hearings.

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Dmitri to be freed soon? Dream on (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#61701)

I predict Dmitri isn't going anywhere (i.e. home) anytime soon. That would make John Ashcroft look foolish and that's not gonna' happen. Besides, freeing Dimitri would, "send the wrong message"!

Adobe wants to have it both ways -- "we really don't want anybody to go to jail" ("we really don't want the bad publicity") as well as "screw 'em -- he made is look bad!" Adobe's got to reap what they sow.

Boycott Adobe -- this boycot ends when Dmitri is free

Protests... (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#61705)

As one of the protesters this week who showed up at various federal courthouses around the country to plead for his release, I'd first like to say to the EFF - what in god's name were you thinking? Did you honestly believe the government, when faced with an excellent candidate for persecution - unable to adequately defend himself, Russian, and whose crime most people can't even understand... would simply drop it because an activist group and some random corporation agreed to issue a press release asking for his release? We should still be out there informing the public what the DMCA is and what it means, not sitting at home quietly hoping "it'll be all right".

That aside, my run-ins with the public suggest it is easier to explain to them that a russian who (questionably) committed a crime in another country and who came here only to give a speech about how it was done is in jail here seems easier for people to grasp than copyright issues. I suggest we focus on that instead.

~ Signal 11

Turn off the world. (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 13 years ago | (#61706)

We are the geeks. We are the administrators, the scientists, the engineers, the technicians.

We keep the modern world running. We have the power to make a statement.

Other workers have work slowdowns, sickouts, and slowdowns. Why don't we?

We have the power to bring down the internet, stop the email, interupt phone service, turn off power grids, and many other things. and we should do it.

On August 1st, shut down the US. Give Congress, the President, and the Corporations something to think about.

Posted anonymously to keep from being arrested in Amerika

Ethical shopping (1)

teeth (2952) | more than 13 years ago | (#61711)

I will not be buying any US products while the DMCA remains in force.

Held without bail (3)

GeorgeH (5469) | more than 13 years ago | (#61714)

If you want to know how far the government is willing to go to "protect" us from these cyber-criminals, check out the Kevin Mitnick [kevinmitnick.com] case. He was held in pre-trial detention for four years without a bail hearing.

I know it's l4m3 to talk about Kevin Mitnick and I'll get modded down for it, but even if you're with the "He stole millions of dollars by copying source code" camp you still have to agree that being held without a bail hearing for four years is a bit fishy.

Now it's starting to happen to a legitimate software developer. Who's next...
--

Re:Adobe Question (1)

NullPointer (6898) | more than 13 years ago | (#61717)

And given the circumstances, what has Adobe done beyond issuing a press release to secure Sklyarov's release? Have their lawyers contacted the DOJ? I doubt it and I doubt it would do any good if they did.

The next best opportunity may be protests at Robert Mueller's confirmation hearings. Hopefully someone at EFF will be asked to testify if the noise outside is loud enough...

It is called Habeas Corpus (2)

Pac (9516) | more than 13 years ago | (#61718)

and I do not know if it exists in United States law.

Re:Missile defense is a sound idea (1)

Delphis (11548) | more than 13 years ago | (#61724)

China, as an aggressive and imperialist nuclear state, realizes this, and does not like missile defense since it will make thier aggression harder.

A missile shield will do nothing against a nuke in the back of a van, parked on a certain Pennsylvania Ave.

--
Delphis

Re:It is called Habeas Corpus (1)

ethereal (13958) | more than 13 years ago | (#61728)

Not sure if this is an urban legend or not (I'm certain I'll be corrected quickly if I'm wrong :), but I've heard that Habeas Corpus was suspended by President Lincoln during the Civil War, and has never been reinstated.

Re:Picture is Not Getting Any Prettier (1)

ethereal (13958) | more than 13 years ago | (#61729)

Not that I'm that crazy about the Bush administration, but the DMCA passed with flying colors on President Clinton's watch. Neither party appears to be a great friend of civil liberties online.

Re:Technicalities? (2)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 13 years ago | (#61737)

If the government is making procedural mistakes now, won't those mistakes be possible grounds for getting the trial thrown out later?

What a clever way to get away with terrorizing the community, without ever having to actually defend the Constitutionality of the law that makes it possible (DMCA) in court. Lose the case after doing the damage, without ever getting The Supremes involved.


---

US compared to China (1)

Midnight Thunder (17205) | more than 13 years ago | (#61744)

Looks like the Bush administration is wanting to copy China's approach to things: first by making a weapons program that has no point in being in place (missile shield et al.), secondly by trampling on human-rights issues in favour of corporate America (Dmitry vs Adobe/USA) and do nothing to realistically reduce planetary pollution on the USA side (Kyoto). Maybe I am over generalizing, but this is the image that is getting given by the news coming out of the USA and just as the Dmitry case is bad for Adobe, it doesn't help Bush much either.

Re:It is called Habeas Corpus (5)

meldroc (21783) | more than 13 years ago | (#61748)

Habeas Corpus is Latin for "Produce the body". In legal terms, it means that the government can't imprison someone for more that a couple days without charging him with a crime. I do believe that Sklyarov has already had an arraignment hearing where he was formally charged, then denied bail, so he already had his Habeas Corpus rights fulfilled.

Re:Supporting Skylarov (1)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 13 years ago | (#61749)

No I mean the law can be tried with other cases, no use making this kid a experiment, best to get him out as quickly as possible, even if it doesn't lead to an overturning of DMCA, such can be done in the civil courts. :)

Re:Supporting Skylarov (2)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 13 years ago | (#61750)

Yes, but it can be tried in civil court aka DeCSS, without having to risk someone spending years in jail.

Proposed Solution: Boycott Movies & Music (2)

bradbury (33372) | more than 13 years ago | (#61767)

The problem isn't with the Justice Department, the problem is with the law. The solution would be to get the Movie & Music industries to notice we are fed up with the DMCA. Simply stop buying CD's or going to movies for a year. The companies will find their profits drying up, the stockholders will want to know why and the executives will have to come up with better models for selling things to the public instead of sneaking laws like the DMCA under the fence. Enroll your family & friends -- just say no to movies & music. Patronize your library or a used book store instead.

It will not free Sklyarov now, but it will make people think twice about pulling something like this in the future. ADOBE still remains on my "do not purchase list", perhaps forever.

Also, organize concerted efforts to let your local radio and television stations know about this. Have several friends call their "news tips" desk. Point out how the U.S. is volating Sklyarov's rights and creating an international incident all because the record & movie companies want to make you pay every time you listen to, or view, one of their products. The Supreme Court has said if you own it you can use it any way you want.

am i the only one... (1)

ebbv (34786) | more than 13 years ago | (#61769)


totally disturbed by someone quoting thomas jefferson and picard in the same post? i realize it was his sig but, c'mon... gag...
...dave

Re:Technicalities? (1)

muffel (42979) | more than 13 years ago | (#61772)

Maybe they're trying the same as with the swiss boy a year or so ago (the 10 year old who was charged with sexually abusing his sister)? They fucked up, but they don't want to admit it, so instead they intentionally fuck up again on a technicality and then 'have to' let him go...

Re:The best way to expose a bad law is to enforce (2)

Mr. Slippery (47854) | more than 13 years ago | (#61775)

The FBI's job is to enforce the law...Just keep in mind, the folks who made the law are to blame, not the folks mandated to enforce it.

Sorry, but "I was only following orders" didn't cut it at the Nazi war crimes trials and doesn't cut it now.

Separation of powers has a purpose; legislatures can (in theory) prevent bad laws from passive, executives can (in theory) prevent bad laws from being enforced, and judiciaries can (in theory) prevent anyone from being convicted under bad laws.

None of them gets to use the "look what you made me do" [mat.upm.es] excuse.

Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/

Re:More protest coverage: (2)

interiot (50685) | more than 13 years ago | (#61776)

In AAP's case, they're for free speech, but against free beer. It's only ironic if you confuse the two meanings of 'free'. Or if you find it necessary to put everyone into only two groups: agree with us, or disagree with us.
--

MN Activists (1)

underwhelm (53409) | more than 13 years ago | (#61777)

Join DMCA-minnesota [yahoo.com] : DMCA-minnesota-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Heck, if you're closer to Mpls. than Chicago, join. If you live in Duluth, Mankato, Moorhead or Albert Lea, join. You don't have to drive all the way to the cities to change the minds of people around you. The protest groups are sources for information and materials. Signs, fliers, postcards, letters... Hold a one-person sympathy protest in Emily, MN. Put fliers on all the cabin doors in Lutsen. Change people's minds.

You: Do Something (3)

underwhelm (53409) | more than 13 years ago | (#61780)

Declan's article reads a little like propaganda, but I have no issues with being manipulated by it's message: our elected representatives have issued a challenge to the American people. They want to hear that we're upset about losing our rights to free speech and fair use. Like petulant Gods, they are toying with our lives to see if we will offer sacrifices, request forgiveness, or openly defy them in our evolution as a democracy. Only defiance will get the DMCA to go away. Any other course of action will doom us to greater injustice as they extend the boundaries of their unconstitutional behavior.

Americans do not think about copyright, Americans would rather not think about people in prison. Americans have a tendency to think circularly: people arrested must be criminals. All laws passed by congress are legitimate. We have an uphill battle convincing them that Dmitry has done nothing wrong, and that the DMCA is unconstitutional.

Don't accept "the Supreme Court will handle it." Who says they will? Why wait for the justice system? Once a sufficient number of Americans are informed about the existence of the DMCA and the erosion of their rights, we can make congress uphold their oaths and protect the constitiution like they should have done in the beginning.

The system is being challenged in court. Fine. But that is not justification for twiddling our thumbs in the mean time. Action now makes it easier for the judges to strike down the DMCA. Action now makes it easier for shy, right-thinking congress people to speak out about what a travesty the DMCA is.

Tell 3 people today about the DMCA. Join a protest next week, and tell 1,000. Make people think, encourage people to reason.

Free Dmitry.
Repeal the DMCA.

Why wait?

FBI and Confirmation hearings opportunity (2)

oldzoot (60984) | more than 13 years ago | (#61782)

The upcoming senate hearings for confirmation of the new FBI director and regarding the apparent malfeasance of the FBI ( and incompetence ) should provide an opportunity for us to lobby our congresscritters to seek information on why Dimitri is being held without bail etc. This is a real-time example of the FBI not following constitutional guidelines in its daily operations.

Z

Re:Here's the root of the problem.. (1)

bob4u2c (73467) | more than 13 years ago | (#61792)

Geektavist's don't need the cash, since they (we) control the flow of cash they (we) can deprive the use of it. Think about it, Adobe won't be doing any business if all of the sudden all of their bank accounts show a negative balance or if the electric company doesn't recieve a payment. Geektavist's can even go further and shut down the systems they depend on to make all that cash. Something as simple as shutting down the phone lines or black holing their company would do the trick.

They'd (we'd) rather the politicians see the light on their own but if a few interuptions are needed then so be it. Of course there are the morality issues, but after a while of injustice people will find the moral reasons.

More protest coverage: (5)

cananian (73735) | more than 13 years ago | (#61793)

Boston write-up and pictures [freesklyarov.org] , Wired article on the protests [wired.com] , On-line petition [dibona.com] , IDG story [idg.net] , CNN copy of the original Reuters story [cnn.com] (better late than never!), ironic page on the AAP website [publishers.org] (the AAP issued a press release defending Adobe and the DMCA).

My letter to my Senators: (2)

Shook (75517) | more than 13 years ago | (#61794)

I sent this off to Senators Jeff Sessions and Richard Shelby of Alabama yesterday. Feel free to use it as a basis for similar letters to your elected officials.

Dear Senator _____, Recently, Dmitry Sklyarov was arrested and jailed in Las Vegas for distributing a software program. This software is allegedly illegal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Although I strongly oppose the DMCA, I had neglected to write any letters to my elected officials until now. I had falsely believed that violations of the DMCA would be settled in civil court. Only now do I realize what a truly chilling effect the DMCA has on our freedoms. I am very saddened that a foreign visitor with a wife and child can be thrown into jail for what is essentially a thought crime.

Mr. Sklyarov was doing a presentation at a convention on software he had written for his employer in Russia. This software would decrypt e-books created with software by Adobe Systems Inc. Fair uses of these e-books were limited by Adobe's software. The Adobe software limits abilities to print, share, and quote these books. Mr. Sklyarov's decryption software is not illegal in Russia. The software can only be used by someone that lawfully purchases an e-book. If I purchased an Adobe e-book, I could use Mr. Sklyarov's software to transfer this e-book to a handheld computer so I could read it on the road. I could use the software to input the text into a screen-reader for a deaf family member. I could use the software to quote passages for an academic paper. Although some may disagree with me, I believe that these fair uses are within my legal rights.

Copyright infringement is wrong. Mr. Sklyarov is not charged with copyright infringement. He is charged with distribution of software that, in addition to allowing fair use by legitimate consumers, might be used by others to infringe on copyrights. It is ridiculous that this alleged "crime" could result in a five-year prison sentence.

Currently, the office in charge of prosecuting Mr. Sklyarov (the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of California) is headed by Robert S. Mueller III. Mr. Mueller is President Bush's nominee for director of the FBI. Mr. Mueller has shown a special interest in computer-related cases. Please consider how Mr. Mueller handles the case of Dmitry Sklyarov when voting on the nomination. If you have a chance to ask questions during the nomination hearings, please bring up the Sklyarov case.

I do not know how Mr. Sklyarov's case will turn out. Adobe has already dropped support of Mr. Sklyarov's prosecution. Hopefully he will be released and allowed to return to his family in Russia. I find it ironic that someone from Russia can come to America and be arrested for a thought crime. I consider the DCMA an affront to the freedom of all Americans and hope that you and your colleagues will have the wisdom to repeal it.

Sincerely,
Matt Shook

Re:a contrary view (5)

Sc00ter (99550) | more than 13 years ago | (#61801)

Re:to quote... (2)

cybercuzco (100904) | more than 13 years ago | (#61803)

Sir, are you implying that if the opportunity arose, that I would not be willing to give my life in the defense of principles I hold dear? For shame Sir, For shame. Perhaps you are the one who would shirk your responsibility to eternal vigilance, and by implying that I am a coward, you validate your own cowardace.

Re:to quote... (3)

cybercuzco (100904) | more than 13 years ago | (#61804)

Hey, the russians are already doing capitalism better than we are, who put the first paying customer in space? Maybe now they can do freedom better too ;-)

to quote... (4)

cybercuzco (100904) | more than 13 years ago | (#61805)

"The Tree of Liberty must, from time to time, be watered with the blood of patriots"

-Thomas Jefferson

And ill probably be arrested for quoting him.

Yuck! (2)

chancycat (104884) | more than 13 years ago | (#61807)

Issues like this one really make me ache for a time more free and honest. And it makes me send in my EFF donation a little faster.

Idea: If Slashdot is partially about "stuff the matters" how about letting the Slashdot readers voice a public, collective opinion?

When stories like this one come around, where having an opinion bloc to point to can sway others, why not let the collective voice of Slashdot readers be in public view? Say a poll attached to the article, and keep the results out there in front for folks to use as fodder as necessary. We'll all know a bit better where the crowd sits on the issue too. And folks could easily opt-out of the system if they choose.

Bad idea?

Re:Habeus Corpus? (3)

Ethidium (105493) | more than 13 years ago | (#61809)

I'd like to prefix this by saying: IANAL. Just an amateur constitutional scholar. That said, I'd like to try to clarify some of the questions that have been raised in response to this suggestion:

First, from the U.S. Constitution, Article I Section 9:

"The Privilege of the writ of habeas ccorpus shall not be suspended, unless, when in cases of reballion or invasion, the public safety may require it."[Emphasis added]

Notice that it says nothing about applying only to citizens.

A writ of habeas corpus is a court order demanding that the person of the imprisoned be brought before the court, and that the authority who holds him justify itself, usually by filing charges. Habeas corpus is latin for "give us the body!" The privilege of the writ has only been suspended once in US history, by Abraham Lincoln during the civil war. It doesn't say in the constitution who may suspend it, but legal scholars up until that point had always assumed that it was up to congress, for two reasons:

1) Under British common law, from which much of US law is taken, only parliament may suspend the privilege of the writ

2) The above quote is in Article I, which details the congress.

Hope this helps ease the confusion.

Re:Habeus Corpus? (1)

Galvatron (115029) | more than 13 years ago | (#61811)

Doesn't Habeas Corpus just mean that they have to tell him what he's accused of? He's accused of violating the DMCA. I don't see where Habeas Corpus would enter into it then.

The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.

Supporting Skylarov (1)

Dambiel (115695) | more than 13 years ago | (#61812)

I would love to see Mueller drop the charges as much as anyone else here, but there is a problem with that.

In order for the DMCA to be revoked someone has to be brought up on it and appeal to the supreme court. In order for our due process to figure out that a law is unjust, a person must be charged (and most likely held) under that unjust law.

Re:a contrary view (1)

Patoski (121455) | more than 13 years ago | (#61815)

TechTV had a whole show devoted to it a night or two ago on Dvorak's show. I'd say this issue is beginning to see the light of day at least a little.

Re:a contrary view (3)

348 (124012) | more than 13 years ago | (#61817)

I can understand your point givig that any press is good press. I read through the other posts so far and got to thinking. .. Would I want to be a martyr for this cause?, would I risk the pain of eing seperated from my family? Would I rick my job,resulting in lack of vehicle to support my family, pay the mortgage etc.

I don't think so. Not in my case.

I do think that I would go to a high degree of pain for the cause, but in this case there may be better avenues. Eating this much crap to just hopefully get a little press is a little much. I personally would bow out and focus my time and energy on a more controlled campaign.

That being said, just to add my little opinion to the thread, I think what the authorities are doing here is just plain horrible. They're ignoring the constitution on one hand, while referencing and hiding behind it on the other.

More race stuff in one place,

Developers Have a Louder Voice than Speech (5)

StaticEngine (135635) | more than 13 years ago | (#61821)

We lobby Congress, but it has little effect, because money buys legal power, not shouting voices, no matter how Right those voices may be.

But why are we playing by their rules? If we really want to be heard, we should use our abilities to make ourselves heard. America needs the developers, techies, and computer savvy people who oppose the DMCA to function as a country, to remain economically viable, and to remain internationally competetive.

Personally, I think we should show the nation just how much power they've inadvertantly given us. We should strike, or perform some equivalant that cripples the software and internet infrastructure that runs this economy. We should make a statement that shows that unless America listens to the very people who have created this Digital World, we're not going to give it to them anymore.

Sure, we'll get initially labeled as "evil hackers" and social miscreants, but we're educated enough to know that that's the price of freedom. And we're also the only people who can bail the country out of a technical catastrophe. The fact is that America needs us much more than America needs bogus laws that protect the wealthiest of companies. And we're everywhere, in every industry, and influencing every aspect of life.

Like the Patriots who threw tea overboard in Boston Harbor to protest unjust laws, we shall show that without the foundation technology upon which the Nation depends, no law prohibiting it's advancement and the open table research thereof shall survive or be tolerated.

Re:An Intellectual Property Owner Complains (2)

gowen (141411) | more than 13 years ago | (#61824)

Don't tell us, tell your Senator, then tell the attorney general.

Write your congressman (3)

Emugamer (143719) | more than 13 years ago | (#61827)

Yep and none of that fancy email stuff either....
Type or handwrite(if you still remember how) to your "friends" on the Hill and express your outrage. Tell them what you think as a voter and as one of the most in demand workers on the planet (its true) on how these laws are not helpful to the US.

A couple of words of caution for those of you in the thros of rage.
Do not swear
Do not threaten to kill them if they do not comply
Do not include c4 or other explosives "to get your point across"

EFF Taking fight to US AG (3)

EschewObfuscation (146674) | more than 13 years ago | (#61829)

Although I agree with the people who point out that Adobe probably changed their stance fully knowing that they'd accomplished their goal of intimidation (why should they continue to get bad press when they'd already gotten what they wanted?), I'd also like to point out that Adobe, by this, is not longer the proper target for activists.

The EFF has moved to targeting the US Attorney [eff.org] on the case. Further action against Adobe, while perhaps deserved, would be fruitless.

We need to move on to the next step in getting Dmitry released, and in continuing to fight the DMCA. If we do this right, we might be able to get the entire law overturned.

(email addr is at acm, not mca)
We are Number One. All others are Number Two, or lower.

Re:What about a general strike? (1)

Kryptonomic (161792) | more than 13 years ago | (#61831)

Of course this would require monumental organization and a good PR campaign

Which is exactly why there are trade unions for more established industries.

It's interesting that geeks and IT professionals seem to have so far only scoffed at the idea of becoming an organized work force. "We're indispensable, we don't have to become unionised".

Yet, the more idiotic IT bills get passed the more important "organization and good PR" seems to become.

Coble translation for the reality-impaired (5)

TheFrood (163934) | more than 13 years ago | (#61833)

When Howard Coble says:

"The law is performing the way we hoped... As far as I know there have been very few complaints from intellectual property holders."

what he means is

"My customers are very happy with their purchase."

TheFrood

Re:to quote... (1)

PopeAlien (164869) | more than 13 years ago | (#61834)

..Preferebly Russian patriots?

Re:Here's the root of the problem.. (2)

PopeAlien (164869) | more than 13 years ago | (#61836)

..Yep.. In a round-a-bout way thats what I meant. Corporate law is made purely by profit motive.. And what your talking about (in terms of inconvenience) is a form of profit motive. If I paid $200 bucks for a fancy new digital music player, and then find out that it won't play anything but Celine Dion music, I'd be pissed.. Lost money is a negative profit motive, but it's still a profit motive.

The problem here is that there is no profit motive in being right. The funny thing is, the way you get profit motive on this side of the argument is to crack protection, pirate mass quantities of 'intellectual property' and sell it for a profit. Since this is *not* whats happening, there is no cash-payback for fighting the DMCA. The distribution industries have *mucho* profit motive to do what they do, and all you get for all your effort is the same rights you had ten years ago.

Here's the root of the problem.. (3)

PopeAlien (164869) | more than 13 years ago | (#61837)

But in the world of Washington politics, geektivists are woefully outnumbered by the natives who populate and influence confirmation hearings: Corporate, nonprofit and trade association lobbyists.

'Geektivist's' simply don't have the cash to compete with corporate lobbyist. There is no money in being morally right. Money buys laws.

Different?? (1)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 13 years ago | (#61838)

Let's go over the Sklyarov situation.

Haven't we been doing this the past two weeks? Its getting as bad as the napster articles. Can we move on please? Its a tragedy, but I'm finished reading about it over and over.

--

Your Rapes Online (4)

streetlawyer (169828) | more than 13 years ago | (#61840)

Congratulations, Michael. You've managed to link to an article which:
  • Analogises the crime of copyright infringement with the crime of rape.
  • Analogises the prosecution of people for copyright infringement with the wholesale massacre of Jews.
  • Wastes half of its length on a boring anti-gun-control rant utterly unrelated to the topic, and
  • Destroys the entire case for freedom of information by claiming that hackers should be seen as analogous to mobs killing each other in Chicago (I am not making this up -- the fool's argument is that if hackers want to break the law they will do no matter what the law, therefore they should be allowed the tools to do so)
Quotes like "It's impossible to favor gun regulations and oppose computer regulations and remain philosophically consistent. " are calculated to get half the reasonable people in this country thinking that the DMCA must be a good thing after all, and the linked article's author is a prick of the worst kind for trying to hijack a genuine issue of liberty for his own half-assed political program. Even Eric Raymond has always had the common sense not to stoop this low.

I always wondered whether there was a site out there with worse journalistic standards than Slashdot. Michael's found it, and he's linked to it [linuxplanet.com] . Congratulations.

Adobe (3)

Fat Rat Bastard (170520) | more than 13 years ago | (#61842)

I knew as soon as the EFF announced that Adobe were backing off that it was more Adobe hype and PR than an actual attempt to free Sklyarov. I have a feeling they knew that once the justice system took over they had little say in what continued to happen. Its a win-win for them. They (and the whole pro-DMCA cartel) now have an "example" to spook would-be "encryption crackers" (make that tool, go to jail) and they're now trying to put a nice, shiny spin on it: "Oh, we didn't think THIS would happen. Wow, this is bad. The FBI should release Sklyarov." Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if Adobe had some assurances from the JD that this case would be prosicuted before they decided that Sklyarov should be freed.

If you don't have anything nice to say, say it often.

Habeus Corpus? (4)

swm (171547) | more than 13 years ago | (#61844)

Sklyarov...is being held without even a bail hearing, much less bail.

Perhaps someone should file a Habeus Corpus petiton?

Re:The best way to expose a bad law is to enforce (2)

isomeme (177414) | more than 13 years ago | (#61848)

Just keep in mind, the folks who made the law are to blame, not the folks mandated to enforce it.

And, of course, we are the folks who made the law. Big media interests were able to get the DMCA enacted because voters didn't care about it one way or another. There is not a single congressman or senator now in office who thinks his or her reelection hinges on opposing the DMCA or similar legislation. Our representatives can do Big Media's bidding (and collect healthy campaign contributions and other support) without jeopardizing their positions. What do you expect them to do?

For the moment, at least, we still live in something close to a representative republic. Sufficiently irate citizens routinely change government policies and influence important votes. Our only challenge is how to make our case compelling enough to get a groundswell of popular opinion behind it -- people who are mad enough to vote incumbents out of office over this issue. Then we'll see changes.

Intellectual property law is an esoteric enough issue that I don't even know whether this is possible or not. But I do know that we're spending most of our time preaching to the choir. Try explaining the situation to your non-techie friends and family. Write to your representatives, and to the local paper. Above all, vote, and let all the candidates know why you're voting for your choice.

It may be too late to preserve our freedoms; I don't know. But we have to act as if it's not, or it definitely will be too late, very soon.

--

Re:Write your congressman (3)

Prior Restraint (179698) | more than 13 years ago | (#61851)

I was planning on writing to my Congressman this past weekend. Since he's a Republican, I thought I'd point out how Adobe's customers for this product are mostly corporations, and show how much their profits are being hurt by paying $3000/doc for lame encryption (tailor your message to the audience, and all that). I figured I'd end with a write-up explaining just how lame Adobe's encryption was, complete with simple examples even a non-geek could understand. Then I realized that by doing so, I could find the FBI knocking on my door.

I don't have my copy of "1984" handy, but I seem to recall a statement along the lines of:

People might be able to say, "Big Brother is ungood", but they won't have the ability to back it up.

This is the real problem with the DMCA; no one can meaningfully protest it without running afoul of it.

Re:a contrary view (2)

bernz (181095) | more than 13 years ago | (#61852)

but it's not on Regis or the Today show or Howard Stern or Peter Jennings or Tom Brokaw. You see, only Internet savvy people read news online. The average person, who we would need to change the mind of the government, doesn't know and won't know until the MAJOR media really does a story on it.

If madonna was caught, though, then it would make the major press. hmmmmmmmmmmm....

-----

Adler quote (1)

MrTilney (188646) | more than 13 years ago | (#61855)

"There has been a lot of discussion about circumvention and free speech," Adler said. "But I wonder if those same advocates would be as protective of a piece of technology that helps people obtain their personal information online."

I want the technology that protects my personal data to be open. Legal security means nothing to people who are already trying to break the law. This is a whitewash to fool the drones. These people know what geeks really think.

Re:a contrary view (3)

GemFire (192853) | more than 13 years ago | (#61856)

You've provided a lot of links - tell me, are the dead tree news outlets saying the same? What about Television - where has the DMCA and the Sklyarov arrest been mentioned? CNN? NBC Nightly News? Or has it been mentioned anywhere other than the internet? Techies and Geeks and people like me get their news online, most of the rest of the world uses newspapers, news magazines, television and radio.

Re:What about a general strike? (1)

egerlach (193811) | more than 13 years ago | (#61857)

One problem: There are enough geeks out there that care about their pay-cheques more than 48 hours of political activism that this wouldn't be superbly effective. Sad, but true.

Re:Write your congressman (1)

ichimunki (194887) | more than 13 years ago | (#61858)

Do include the following ROT-13 key:

ABCDEFGHIJKLM NOPQRSTUVWZYZ

as an example of the encryption they've just outlawed discussing, cracking, and selling products to perform the decryption of automatically. Then you can thank them for outlawing math class when they discuss factoring and prime numbers (see related "RSA" story).

Re:Write your congressman (1)

ichimunki (194887) | more than 13 years ago | (#61859)

ack. my line break between the M and the N disappeared. That's supposed to read:

ABCDEFGHIJKLM
NOPQRSTUVWXYZ

And there is a typo in the previous example as well. Geez. I think I need some more coffee.

EFF/Adobe joint PR (2)

sulli (195030) | more than 13 years ago | (#61861)

Hey, did you see the joint press release [eff.org] that EFF put out with Adobe? Interesting.

Note in particular their agreement that Skylarov should be freed - but Adobe's insistence that DMCA is okay, along with EFF's mushy "while we don't agree on everything" comment. While this is good for Skylarov, EFF needs to be careful not to concede too much to the supporters of the DMCA here - if the objective is to get it overturned or reformed, they should make that emphatically clear!

a contrary view (4)

rpeppe (198035) | more than 13 years ago | (#61863)

maybe it's a good thing (long term) that he's not being released. at least then some people might see just what a ridiculous thing this act is... and some courts might have a chance to blow the DMCA out of the water.

Join EFF's Blue Ribbon campaign (5)

smagruder (207953) | more than 13 years ago | (#61867)

For those of you who are webmastering (and who isn't, at least on the side), think about placing EFF's blue ribbon [eff.org] on the front page of your site. Besides being really cool, it helps get out the message that the DMCA is curtailing OUR freedom of speech and keeping an innocent man in jail.

Steve Magruder

An Intellectual Property Owner Complains (4)

westfirst (222247) | more than 13 years ago | (#61870)

I use Adobe's PDF format and its Acrobat software to publish texts. If I can't get independent review of the software from noted scholars, then I'm going to be trusting my "very valuable" intellectual property to potentially bad software. That sounds bad for writers and artists everywhere. I also hate the copy protection mechanisms because they gum up the works in my office.

Re:a contrary view (3)

Firedog (230345) | more than 13 years ago | (#61872)

On a similar note, I just did a search on abcnews.com [abcnews.com] to see what they had to say regarding this issue. I came up with exactly one article, this one [go.com] .

Here's an excerpt:

Hackers -- and Cops -- Converge in Las Vegas

At the ninth annual Def Con convention in Las Vegas, thousands of computer hackers and code-breakers gathered to compare notes and tricks on breaking into computer systems. And that caught the attention of some legal authorities.

Dmitry Sklyarov, a 26-year old Russian programmer and one of the convention speakers, was arrested by the FBI at the show. The programmer was accused of creating and selling a software program that lets users copy electronic books. If convicted of violating the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, Sklyarov could face five years in prison and a $500,000 fine.

Convention attendees say they are there to share concerns about computer security issues, and that most of them are not criminals. "There's a lot of intellectual people, a lot of very bright kids who are here," said one attendee who requested not to be identified.

But why do hackers break into corporate or government computers? "The control you have when you get through on a system," said one attendee who identified himself as Netranger. "It's the most exhilarating thing that you can probably get."

To the average mainstream American, what does this look like? A bunch of hacker kids, out to disrupt orderly society, who get off on the adrenaline rush of hacking into systems. Not exactly apt to inspire sympathy in the Heartland(TM).

It's also interesting to note that abcnews.com's top story this morning is a piece on resume padding, by the way.

- Firedog

don't you just love this bullshit! (2)

Dr. Awktagon (233360) | more than 13 years ago | (#61873)

"There has been a lot of discussion about circumvention and free speech," Adler said. "But I wonder if those same advocates would be as protective of a piece of technology that helps people obtain their personal information online."

Reading a book sold in a publicly-accessible bookstore is the same as getting someone's personal information??

The DMCA allowed the Internet to grow and by and large the act has worked.

Please, spare me...

Target Adobe (2)

UdoKeir (239957) | more than 13 years ago | (#61877)

You know it's perfectly legal for you to purchase an Adobe product at your local store, take it home and open it (without breaking the seal on the software) and then take it back because the license agreement renders it useless for your purposes.
Do this 10 times every day and Adobe might start to get the picture.

The best way to expose a bad law is to enforce it (4)

Dallas Truax (242176) | more than 13 years ago | (#61879)

The FBI's job is to enforce the law. Not to enforce only good law that makes sense.

I say, enforce the bad law, expose it for what it is, and get it ruled as unconstitutional. Or, get congress to change the law, in light of the bad ways it is required to be enforced.

It's just sad that some poor sod has to sit in jail while this process goes on.

Just keep in mind, the folks who made the law are to blame, not the folks mandated to enforce it.

Technicalities? (2)

JohnPerkins (243021) | more than 13 years ago | (#61880)

If the government is making procedural mistakes now, won't those mistakes be possible grounds for getting the trial thrown out later?

Re:don't you just love this bullshit! (2)

cavemanf16 (303184) | more than 13 years ago | (#61893)

There has been a lot of discussion about circumvention and free speech," Adler said. "But I wonder if those same advocates would be as protective of a piece of technology that helps people obtain their personal information online."

What a load of bull! We all know that our personal info was hardly kept secretive at all prior to the DMCA as our untouchable credit reporting agencies have taught us through an innummerable amount of junk snail (and now electronic) mail, and screwed up profiles of some of us. The DMCA just makes it harder for us to break through their poor existing encryption and 'protection' of our privacy to edit our personal profiles the way they should read. ;)

Anyways, my personal info isn't copyrighted, so what use in protecting it is the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act)?! If anything, it protects the company that has the system to collect my personal info for credit reporting from letting me break through their 'copyrighted' software to make sure they're not screwing with my personal info.

Re:Your Rapes Online (5)

cavemanf16 (303184) | more than 13 years ago | (#61896)

* Wastes half of its length on a boring anti-gun-control rant utterly unrelated to the topic, and

So you're saying that the proven fact that gun crime in Britain jumped 40% in one year after enacting laws to ban regular citizens from owning guns is not relevant? The fact that enforcing a law that is fundamentally foolish and flawed (DMCA kills fair use copyright law already in place) is therefore a good thing, just because it is now law? That's ridiculous! The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. The British didn't remember that, and today they've got a 40% increase in gun crime (not just crime overall, specifically crimes involving guns). I find that quite relavant considering the DMCA flies in the face of our own Constitutionally granted freedoms.

Re:a contrary view (1)

shaunak (304231) | more than 13 years ago | (#61897)

# Quoted

maybe it's a good thing (long term) that he's not being released.

# End of quote

I don't think this is very fair on him. Lets try this. You claim you did everything he's charged with, lie so that he's aquited, and then you can fight the battle out, hoping that the courts will throw the DMCA out. It's easy, my friend, to see people fighthing. The fun begins when you get close enough to smell blood - you're own blood.

Re:to quote... (1)

shaunak (304231) | more than 13 years ago | (#61898)

#quote

"The Tree of Liberty must, from time to time, be watered with the blood of patriots"

#end of quote

Well, sir, would you care to step this way? And please roll up those sleeves. No, don't worry, those pipes aren't as large as they seem, and that is a very low power suction pump. No, donating some blood does not hurt.

"DMCA allowed the net to grow" (1)

shaunak (304231) | more than 13 years ago | (#61899)

"That act was approved with considerable discussion and the members absolutely knew the balances they were advancing. The DMCA allowed the Internet to grow and by and large the act has worked," Holleyman said.

I want a lot of what this guy has been smoking.
When will these ducks get their bills out of their arses and smell something different for a change? The internet grew on its own, and people like you leeched on it, Mr. Robert Holleyman.

The next time you write circumventing software, (1)

shaunak (304231) | more than 13 years ago | (#61900)

Post it somewhere anonymous, like freenet (I do hope that _IS_ anon, or I'm in deep shit). Atleast untill someone does something about the DMCA.

Imagine ... (2)

shaunak (304231) | more than 13 years ago | (#61901)

Imagine there are no IP laws,
It's easy if you try,
No DMCA to fear below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine no politicians,
Screwing our today, Oh ohhh,

You may say, I'm a dreamer,
And you're probably right on that one,
I hope some day you'll assasinate someone,
Either democrat or republican.

Re:Habeus Corpus? (1)

linuxpng (314861) | more than 13 years ago | (#61904)

perhaps he is not entitled since he is not an american citizen. Who knows?

Re:It is called Habeas Corpus (1)

terrymr (316118) | more than 13 years ago | (#61906)

yes it does is part of the english common law that existed before independance and therefore remained in the US common law. I've heard of several Habeas Corpus pettitions being filed in the last couple of years.

Re:to quote... (1)

crowchild (326687) | more than 13 years ago | (#61911)

"The Tree of Liberty must, from time to time, be watered with the blood of patriots"
-Thomas Jefferson

Yeah, but how about innocent Russians? That quote is totally inappropriate in this situation.

'crow

How do you justify that? (3)

crowchild (326687) | more than 13 years ago | (#61912)

I've actually been hearing this statement made over and over again, but I have to disagree. Is it really fair to want to keep a citizen from another country in lock-up just to prove that the DMCA is bogus? Sklyarov didn't volunteer for this. He has a family and a home, that I'm rather certain he wants to go back to.

If we try and take away Sklyarov's freedom to make a point, how are we better than Adobe and the Feds? Isn't that what they did?

Don't make an unwilling martyr out of Sklyarov. Let him go home!

The U.S. needs to take care of their own problems.

'crow

Re:Here's the root of the problem.. (1)

srvivn21 (410280) | more than 13 years ago | (#61913)

Yes, actually, I did vote Nader. How about you?

Re:Here's the root of the problem.. (3)

srvivn21 (410280) | more than 13 years ago | (#61914)

I think that you are right that we are outnumbered, but wrong on how. Aren't "geeks" some of the most highly paid (and best educated) people on the planet? I really don't think it's a lack of money, but a lack of conviction. I personally find it far easier and convenient to sit on my butt and bitch to the online forums about how the "world is going to hell in a hand basket", then it would be to fly down to D.C. and talk to the Senate in person. Until things become inconvenient enough that it dramatically effects our lifestyles, I really think that little change is going to happen.

Don't get me wrong. I think that the DMCA sucks. I have made monetary contributions to the EFF. I don't like MS. But it is far too easy to take the path of least resistance. 50% voter turnout in presidential elections means that the "dedicated" minorities get their way. Geeks just don't seem to be dedicated enough to the real world.

What about a general strike? (2)

s20451 (410424) | more than 13 years ago | (#61915)

Most slashdotters would accept the following axioms:

Axiom 1: Corporations and nations need geeks to run their information technology systems, which are vital to national economies.

Axiom 2: Geeks have better understanding of the socio-technological implications of technically-related laws than most lawmakers.

Axiom 3: Virtually no non-technical people have adequate skills to replace geeks if the geeks removed their services.

Accepting these axioms, we find that the most logical method of applying pressure on the government is for geeks to embark on a general strike, such as withholding services over a 48-hour period, or suchlike.

Of course this would require monumental organization and a good PR campaign, but I'll leave that for someone else. I'm just an idea rat.

Russia needs to step up to the plate.... (1)

agilen (410830) | more than 13 years ago | (#61916)

Its fairly obvious that the US government is not going to listen to us. They made this law and are quite pleased with themselves and how it helps their big businesses. Right now, the party with the most power is Russia. A Russian citizen is being held in a US prison and not being tried, something that is not allowed to happen to an American citizen. Especially since Russia is being all buddy-buddy with China recently, I think they can do a much better job of scaring the sh*t out of the US government than a bunch of hackers can.

What really bugs the hell out of me... (2)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 13 years ago | (#61917)

... is that the other side of this issue has yet to be defended on its merrits. Anti-DMCA folks have been railing on the way it infringes on First Amendment rights and the "fair use" clause in copyright law, but all the law's defenders have been answering with is "the ends justify the means" and even personal attacks against the detractors themselves. Things like:

"As far as I know there have been very few complaints from intellectual property holders."
--Rep. Howard Coble

"But I wonder if those same advocates would be as protective of a piece of technology that helps people obtain their personal information online."
--Allan Adler

You'd think that if they thought it was such a great and wonderful law they'd be able to defend it on its merrits alone, but I have yet to see that.

Re:It is called Habeas Corpus (1)

KilljoyAZ (412438) | more than 13 years ago | (#61918)

I sure hope it's an urban legend. Otherwise, I sure hope Canada has room for one more :P

Re:It is called Habeas Corpus (2)

KilljoyAZ (412438) | more than 13 years ago | (#61919)

It's in the Constitution. A writ of Habeus Corpus can't be suspended unless there's a rebellion or invasion of the USA.

Whether or not it's applied today is another matter.

Re:a contrary view (5)

KilljoyAZ (412438) | more than 13 years ago | (#61920)

I'm sure his wife and kids would disagree. I've never read that he wants to be a martyr for the anti-DMCA cause, and until I do I'm all for getting him out of prison ASAP.

Coble Is Wrong (1)

John Hasler (414242) | more than 13 years ago | (#61921)

Representative Coble says "there have been very few complaints from intellectual property holders". This is not true. I am quite sure that the vast majority of the protesters have at some time or other written something original and are therefor "intellectual property owners".

Re:a contrary view (1)

masoncooper (443243) | more than 13 years ago | (#61925)

I see the best way to get public attention is to use the media. They're great for scaring the public into caring and blowing things out of proportion. Maybe they can draw enough attention to the issue and make it seem so bad(if it wasn't bad enough already) that the Gov't will have no choice but to face the people.
Unfortunately I have yet to see a single newscast about the DMCA. I personally have submitted a well-written letter to all of my local news stations bringing to their attention the Skylarov arrest, and encouraging them to look into doing a story over Dimitri. I encourage everyone else to do so too. I figure if one station covers it and gets good ratings, the rest will follow like lemmings.

Where's Chuckie ? (1)

beanerspace (443710) | more than 13 years ago | (#61927)

Amazing. Considering all the noise Chuck Schumer made about Windows XP [slashdot.org] yesterday, you'd think this member of the judiciary commitee spend his valuable time on something important like the Sklyarov situation.

What to do about the lack of media attention? (1)

idonotexist (450877) | more than 13 years ago | (#61931)

I, also, have been amazed at the lack of media attention concerning this issue. Writing a letter to a local news station sounds like a good start. Perhaps the letter could also be sent to newspapers so they may run it as an op-ed column?

How else could this issue gain more attention? Anyone know of a friend who knows of Dan Rather, Petter Jennings, Barbara Walters... anyone who can bring light on this issue?

This Is Why Dmitry Is a Bad Test Case for DMCA (2)

idonotexist (450877) | more than 13 years ago | (#61932)

Not what I have read. What is ironic is while many here proclaim the charges against Dmitry should go on in attempt to find DMCA invalid or unconstitutional, Dmitry may ultimately go free for another reason (i.e.: inability to contact the Russian government) and, thus, DMCA will stand.

This case, for many reasons, is not a good test case. Instead, Dmitry should be freed, especially given Adobe's apparent opposition to his detainment.

Picture is Not Getting Any Prettier (4)

idonotexist (450877) | more than 13 years ago | (#61933)

CNN recently posted an interview [cnn.com] with U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft who states "[t]he idea you can get away with it ["cybercrime [tuxedo.org] " (this is an undefined term)] here is an idea we must curtail ... There are no free passes in cyberspace [tuxedo.org] ." Ashcroft comments he plans to create "Computer Hacking and Intellectual Property (CHIP) units staffed by 77 personnel, including 48 lawyers" modeled after the existing unit in California, currently prosecuting Dmitry Sklyarov, created by FBI Director nominee Robert Mueller "whose nomination is expected to receive little opposition in Congress."

The CHIPs plan to hold illegal sites and post "a warning that the site has been seized by law enforcement" and present a "clear message that cybercrime carries real penalties for offenders."

The article further states that current EFF Executive Director, Shari Steele, addressed a letter to Ashcroft requesting the release of Sklyarov. Ashcroft had no comment regarding his ageny's charges against Sklyarov.

It looks DMCA will soon accrue an army or firm of brand new federal government attorneys under the Bush administration.

No, Not with Dmitry. This is Our (US) Problem. (5)

idonotexist (450877) | more than 13 years ago | (#61934)

Ok, and you would not mind to be Dmitry and sit in prison during the duration of such a judgment? I doubt it. This man is not even a U.S. citizen, this is our problem --- this is America's problem that must be settled within our borders and subjecting a non-American to the worse attributes (prison) of such a test is a disgust. Yes, DMCA should be tested. But, not with this case. Dmitry needs to return to Russia to his family.

Let DMCA be tested by Americans. This nation we live in is responsible for this damn law; we should be the ones who deal with it; who correct the wrong.

Re:a contrary view (5)

tsarina (456482) | more than 13 years ago | (#61935)

How will people see what a ridiculous thing the DMCA is if they never hear about this? Few people other than slashdotters and people who have witnessed the protests actually have heard of the DMCA, let alone Sklyarov! In fact, I went to a political gathering last evening, where there were numerous citizens and several politicians, both local and otherwise. Only one of them had heard of the DMCA, and none knew about the Sklyarov issue. The major newspaper here hasn't run a single story on the issue. The media was what was pushing for this dumb act! It's in their best interest to maintain it, to keep the public in ignorance... Anyway, unless this is taken to the Supreme Court, it seems unlikely the courts could find the jurisdiction to squash the DMCA.

Has he had contact with embassy/consulate? (1)

kiwimate (458274) | more than 13 years ago | (#61937)

Does anyone know if the Russian embassy or consulate has been in touch with him? I'm just thinking about the news in recent death-penalty cases that some prisoners were not properly advised of their rights to contact their embassy/consulate. AFAIK, this is a requirement anytime a foreign citizen is arrested, not just in capital cases (can someone confirm this?). One wonders if that would make much difference, but surely it's a potential avenue?

Re:Different?? (1)

Amazing Quantum Man (458715) | more than 13 years ago | (#61940)

Its a tragedy, but I'm finished reading about it over and over.

So don't. Nobody forced you to click on this article.

New song from the Corporate People! (1)

Mu*puppy (464254) | more than 13 years ago | (#61942)

Hacker, there's a need to feel down.
I said, hacker, we'll nail your a-- to the ground.
I said, hacker, 'cause there's a flawed law in town
there's a way to make you unhappy.

Hacker, there's no place you can go.
I said, hacker, trials'll make you short on your dough.
You can fight it, but I'm sure you will find
There's no way you'll beat our law staffs!

It's fun to screw ya with the D-M-C-A!
It's fun to screw ya with the D-M-C-A!

We have good protection, big corporations can enjoy,
We can buy any Congressional ploy!

It's fun to screw you with the D-M-C-A!
It's fun to screw you with the D-M-C-A!

We can get your a-- jailed, copyrights we will seal,
We can do whatever we feel!

Mu*puppy - proof of the effects of boredom, and Altoid dust snorting

yet another irony (5)

rawkphish (465690) | more than 13 years ago | (#61945)

I find it ironic that the current chairman and former CEO of Adobe [adobe.com] was quoted as saying that one of the worst parts of being kidnapped [mercurycenter.com] is the forced separation from ones family. Isn't that what he has ( in part ) done to Sklyarov ?

Re:Technicalities? (1)

javahacker (469605) | more than 13 years ago | (#61947)

The FBI make a mistake? What a concept?

Re:to quote... (5)

javahacker (469605) | more than 13 years ago | (#61948)

Unfortunately, instead of an American patriot, we arrested a foreign national, a man with a family, who is paying the price for the Law purchased by big business in our country.

Sadly, the people responsible for this law will probably never suffer for their abrogation of duties, and they obviously don't qualify as patriots, at least from my perspective.

I know we don't have the votes to really hurt the politicians who voted this law into effect, but we should generate as much attention as we can, and remind people that the Chinese government isn't the only one that detains foreign nationals without due process, as this case shows!

Boycot Adobe (1)

songmeanings (469726) | more than 13 years ago | (#61949)

All the Windows users all start your pirated versions of Adobe software at midnight. Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. all glowing in support of Sklyarov. No legal versions, though... I think we can deal without those 5.
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