The Joys of School And "Website Protection" 333
jeffy124 writes "New Jersey Democratic Senator Bob Torricelli has proposed federal legislation titled the School Website Protection Act of 2001 that would criminally punish students who disrupt school networks, whether it be elemantary, high school, or college. Unfortunately, the legislation makes common acts like sending e-mail to a teacher an offense that can be investigated by the Secret Service and punishable by 10 years incarceration. It almost seems as if sitting at a lab computer and logging in is illegal."
Re:once again... (Score:2)
This law is utterly unnecessary, and the potential abuses far outweigh the potential benefits.
There is no way that ordinary school disciplinary procedures could not handle this stuff. Should side-stepping windows nt permissions & playing Starcraft in the library be punishable by a maximum of 10 years in jail, while writing "PRINCIPL REED IS A FUKWAD" on the bathroom walls (requiring a repaint) will give you at worst a week's suspension? That's not what the bill says, you say, it's just a possible misinterpretation. Well, if a court could misinterpret it that way, then the bill should not be passed in its current form. If it's passed at all.
Schools are places of learning. Therefore we should encourage students to play with the computer systems and learn from them, not subliminally tell them that exploring what is possible on the system could cross a (very vague) line that could land them in jail. In its present form, the bill does that, and clarifying things to the point where the bill is not unacceptably vague would essentially just say "doing illegal computer things is even more illegal if you do them to a computer network."
No?
Ayn Rand (Score:2)
Re:Computers don't belong in schools (Score:3)
As far as the first goes, computers are tools. Whether it helps students in later life to know how to use the computer as a tool, the computer can help them as students. Our school's computer lab isn't primarily there so that students can learn to use computers; it's so that students can do schoolwork between classes, type things up, research things on the internet. At the (private) high school i attended last year, written papers were not accepted; all major assignments turned in had to be typed. Whether this is a good thing (reading typed material is easier for teachers than written material) or a bad thing (it allows kids who have a handwriting problem to remain with a handwriting problem), you can decide. However in my opinion computer labs should be provided as a courtesy to the students, so they don't have to go home to type things or check e-mail. (Especially since some of us live far from the school, and in some areas *gasp* schools and libraries are the only computer access the kids have.) The students need to use computers sometimes. The schools can easily provide computers for student use. How can you possibly argue against that? (if you were, i mean..)
As to the second, if students are interested in something they should definitely be given a chance to pursue that course. Good schools should enable students to grow in the ways they want to grow. (This is why i personally am a big proponent of networked schools giving students administrator powers, and kind of apprenticing them in fixing network problems and helping students and teachers in need. the bill which is ostensibly currently being discussed seems to go directly against that idea.)
As to the third, perhaps you are right; and i don't quite see why they put computers in elementary schools, to be honest. OK, maybe playing Jumpstart 2ndGrade for 20 minutes will give them some math exersize. But most elementary-level computer classes are overkill, and often are taught by teachers who don't know anything at all about the computers. These computer classes are, of course, pure soulfood to those few kids to whom computers seem magic and 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"; 20 GOTO 10 seems at first like the coolest thing in the universe, and they'll just gobble them up; still, for most of the students there, the need for such classes is uncertain. But beyond trying to find a way that the kids who just think "OOH! NIFTY BEEPING BOXES! WANT TO PLAY!" get ample time (if they so desire) to play and grow and gain experience with what the nifty beeping boxes can do (besides games)..
Overall, i'd say that mainly what your arguments seem to work for is the idea that computers used in schools need to be there for a specific set of clearly thought out reasons, not just "Uhh.. computers. There should be computers in the schools." BUT: What *are* you arguing, exactly, and exactly what relevance does it have to the bill this story is about?
Re:Uh-oh (Score:2)
I know it's not an oxymoron, but something about the above phrase is just not quite right
Re:The snowball effect. (Score:2)
Or court fees. You don't object to those, do you? Yet, these are certainly a departure from "publicly funded by all".
Any form of non-publicly funded laws basically ammount to a bunch of libertarians who hire a private army to enforce their rules.
Bullshit. Just because I pay the court $xxx to process the papers I'm filing doesn't mean they're any more likely to rule in my favor -- presuming by non-publicly-funded you mean that enforcement costs (as opposed to the costs of those creating the laws) are paid for by those who initiate action.
Libertarianism is founded on the idea that ownership rights are absolute, and that you don't "initiate" violence. Well, yeah. YOUR ownership rights are absolute, and I should never initiate violence against you.
Hrm? When has a libertarian ever suggested to you that your ownership rights are less absolute than h{er,is} own, or that {s,}he has the right to initiate violence?
Should we respect the ownership rights of people whose ancestors stole land by killing the inhabitants? What if I'm a decendent of one of the original owners?
Incidentally, common law (inhereted by the US from England) resolves issues of this type. A party which has been using land for a long enough time (11 years, as I recall) gains ownership rights. Nothing in my libertarian background compels me to consider this unfair -- so it seems a reasonable means of resolving such a dispute.
Libertarianism is a philosophy of contradiction, Apply harsh rules to them, and make them pay for the privelage, but don't take any money from me or it's government initiation of violence and I'll come out shooting.
Utter and complete bullshit. Libertarianism holds that the same rules should apply to everyone; that people should pay their own actions; and (yes) that any entitiy, including the government, which takes without consent is morally in the wrong. The laws which a Libertarian government would enforce would be far fewer and simpler than those on the books today. It would have those initiating legal action paying for the use of the legal system (as opposed to your implications to the contrary) and is opposed to anyone coming out shooting.
I just don't know what to say .... (Score:2)
I just can't believe that this was even proposed. How do these people stay elected? I really want to say something informative/interesting here, but I'm literally at a complete loss for words.
And people wonder why the education system is a shambles in the USA. Making it illegal to think outside of the box certainly isn't going to help any.
Re:www.lp.org (Score:2)
Re:Why Ayn Rand novels read the way they do. (Score:2)
Re:it's a joke (Score:2)
"No one in their right mind..."
Here on Slashdot, however...
Re:it's a joke (Score:2)
If we keep this up I ain't gonna have no karma left at all. :-)
Re:Obviously you've never read... (Score:2)
Re:Comic book parodies. (Score:2)
Seriously, though, I only read "Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" a couple of years ago, and was amazed that so much critical acclaim had been garnered by what to me read like old sci-fi and comic books with some half-baked political philosophy mixmastered in.
Could it be.. (Score:2)
The lines blur... (Score:2)
Federal legislation like this is even worse in that it might affect not just public schools, but private schools as well. The bill itself refers to the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 8801), section 14101, but I'm not aware of how to track that down (Google doesn't come up with much of interest).
If it refers strictly to public schools, then private institutions (and the home, for homeschoolers) might be the only place where a kid can really be free to learn. This, to me, is ironic and more than a little sad.
I expect two things to happen if bills like this pass:
I don't know about you guys, but it looks to me like the good 'ol USA is slowly turning into its former Communist enemy, the USSR. Oh, there are certainly distinctions (power in the hands of the corps versus power in the hands of the Communist leaders). But I think they are distinctions without a substantial difference.
I think this trend will continue. The laws will get worse over time for the individual. I suspect only armed revolt will be enough to change it, and that won't happen because the general population doesn't have sufficient military strength anymore, thanks to expensive (so the general population can't afford them) high-tech weapons that give the government (and thus the corporations, since they are roughly the same thing these days) a millions-to-one advantage in firepower.
And nobody from the outside would provide military aid to those revolting, since the corporations are multinational and have sufficient influence over every government that matters.
Reading Slashdot is depressing sometimes, because the problems discussed there are usually things we can't do a damned thing about. I have a large sense of inevitability of the corporate police state.
Sigh...
--
On Senators of the Republic and Interrupts (Score:2)
Not that he will ever see this. But what are the chances on the Senatorial Clerk For Web-Based Reading Affairs being much better? Remember, the SCFWBRA is probably a very young, very green, too greedy, very just-out-of-college lawyer.
I think that if you want a good standing chance of being read, understood and even taken into account, you should imagine a world where the only operating system in existence is Windows 98 and the only applications ever written were those in Microsoft Office. There are plenty of examples just as good as the one you used. Even better ones, considering the havoc a kid with VBA and Outlook can wreck.
And by using expressions like "UNIX box", "ssh" and "analyzing the signal" you just marked yourself as the kind of hacker the lawmaker want to see in jail. Funny world, isn't it?
Also, write your senators!!!! (Score:5)
Senator,
I am writing to express my opposition to the the School Website Protection Act of 2001 (S 1252) and to urge you to vote against this bill.
This legislation to stop "hackers" in schools is misguided and (frankly speaking) fundamentally ignorant of the technological issues involved. In particular: Sec. 2 (a)(2) makes it a crime to:
The problem is with the phrase "affects or impairs." This makes ANY unauthorized action on a school computer, whether it is otherwise legal or not, into a criminal act, even if that act doesn't harm the computer in any way. This includes: moving a mouse, sending someone email, or tapping a key on the keyboard. This is because all of these actions cause a command to be transmitted to the kernel of the operating system (called an "interrupt") which causes the kernel to analyze the signal and the operating system to react accordingly. This doesn't slow the computer down by much, but it does slow it down as the processor(s) spend a few clock cycles processing each keystroke or mouse movement.
So let us take the following example: I attempt to log into a school UNIX box, believing that I have an account on that box (when in fact I do not). I create an ssh connection and type in what I believe are my login and password for that box. After being denied access, three times, I cut the connection. However, that UNIX box has been affected by my actions (the internal state of the machine changed as it decided not to give me access). Undoubtedly I intended to transmit the commands which caused this change, and obviously I was not authorized to do so. Under this bill, I have just committed a federal crime. Whether or not I will be prosecuted now depends on how zealous and paranoid the system administrators are, how ambitious the prosecutor is, how much fear the judge has about "evil hackers," etc.
Even if we were to remove the word "affects," it would not be enough; since the computer is slowed down ever so slightly by my attempts to log in, I have now "impaired" the computer also. In fact this legislation is overzealous unless the phrase "affects or impairs" is changed to "substantially impairs or substantially alters information stored on." This covers what I think Senator Torricelli trying to legislate against: denial-of-service attacks, virus transmissions, web page defacements, etc.
I might also point out that there are already several laws on the books which prohibit destruction of school property, in addition to regulations of the school. We do not need a federal law to protect schools; "evil hackers" already are subject to prosecution. If they cross state lines, they may even be subject to prosecution in *two* states. There is no reason for the Federal government to become involved, even on an interstate level.
I urge you to vote against this bill. It proposes a recklessly overzealous change in policy.
signature
Re:Also, write your senators!!!! (Score:3)
We have argued that these laws are overbroad and/or vague: that they make illegal ordinary activities, and/or they are indeterminate by a person of reasonable intelligence as to the applicability of the act.
Overbroad laws lead to "selective prosecution", which is constitutionally disallowed. If every single person who violated ORS 164.377 in Oregon were to be prosecuted (using the most liberal definition of the terms "alter" and "authorize"), the courts would flooded every day. Hence, to even exist, these laws have to be enforced only when there's some other agenda, and that's no longer justice: that's a big stick in the wrong hands.
This is so sad. (Score:2)
Re:Computers don't belong in schools (Score:2)
Our high school last year had a math class that was taught entirely in the computer lab so that the students could use mathematica. Between the ability to deal with high-level concepts quickly that using the computer gave them and a couple of extra periods a week, the students in this class-- despite being juniors-- were able to speed through both the junior and senior years of math to the point where they were all able to capably take the Calculus BC exam at the end of the year.
Meanwhile, the TI-83 calculators that were *REQUIRED* for my 9-12 math classes were as far as i can gather more powerful machines than the Apple IIcs at my elementary school (if you discount the lack of external hardware add-ons like a color monitor, sound, a floppy drive..). Where do you draw the line on "computers are not beneficial to students", when students are carrying around literal computers to help them in math? Where does "follow the steps in your calculus book to find the areas between these two curves" end and "translate the steps in your calculus book into TI-BASIC and use the program to find the areas between these two curves" begin?
Re:What is it with politicians??? (Score:2)
Recent events have tended to confirm this hypothesis. I think that paranoia with delusions of grandeur is the most common psychosis, though certainly schizophrenia of various stripes can also be observed.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
Re:The meat of the Bill (Score:2)
I really believe that we need some sort of technology awareness course in the school system, so at least people don't take the FUD, spread by journalists, at face value.
Re:What the fuck? (Score:5)
I used to go to the midnight movies to see RHPS and HM, now there is a curfew.
I used to carry a pocket knife to school. Doing so now will land you in jail.
When I wasn't feeling well I used to bring aspirin with me to school. Not anymore.
Remember 13 yr old NJ boy who committed suicide (Score:2)
because he was suspended and allegedly threatened, by the his school
principal, to be incarcerated for breaking into his school's computer
system.
The slashdot story here:
http://slashdot.org/articles/01/05/14/0129236.sht
Actual article here:
http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/news/time
This is a prime example of the effects of sever punishment laden on
young children. Instead of channeling their blackhat energies into
something constructive and leaving the punishment in the hands of the
school system, Torricelli, indirectly, wants to build more prisons so
that we can now through more young children into them.... which, by
the way, do a poor job at rehabilitating and sometimes making the
child even worse when he comes out.
Being a NJ resident I am definitely going to write Senator Torricelli
and offer the above story as a prime example of where this type of
legislation could lead too. You should to.
---
Bigup Brick City
Re:Unsolicited email to teachers (Score:2)
Re:Used to happen with telephones (Score:2)
Re:What the...? (Score:2)
--Ben
Re:The snowball effect. (Score:2)
How can someone propose this? Simple. In my eyes, nobody has every gotten mega rich (gates, rockafeller, dupont, etc) without massive abuses of the law, saved in many cases only because they were too rich to prosecute.
That precedent, when viewed along with the fact that nobody requires billions of dollars to live, makes it pretty simple to say that an upper limit on wealth wouldn't be a bad thing.
Re:The snowball effect. (Score:2)
But I still still think that limiting income to a certain value isn't a bad thing.
If I actually thought the system stood a chance of working, I'd vote for it instantly. However, I'm not foolish enough to think that the rich wouldn't find ways around it. It'd just hit a few upper-middle class types who couldn't afford tax dodges. The incredibly-rich would still be incredibly rich, and would continue to get more so.
Re:The snowball effect. (Score:2)
It's, IMHO, a fairly small number. For the rest of them, it might cut into their motivation, but it's motivation for them to do things I don't want them doing to begin with.
I think you've missused a few terms in your post.
You seem to have equated democracy with capitalism, and both of these as the opposites of communism...
1) The USA isn't a democracy. It's a representitive democratic republic. That means it's got a constitution which is mostly untouchable, and you don't get to vote, "representatives" do it for you.
2) Democracy and capitalism are NOT related. In fact, a true democracy would likely be very socialist, because the poor (who vastly outnumber the rich, in ANY system) would vote for more wealth sharing.
3) The USA is a socialism. All we're arguing is the degree to which it is. All those laws a libertarians wants, which keep the poor from taking the means of production away from the slaveholders^H^Howners are publicly funded. No system except an anarchy can exist without some degree of socialism, by definition. (Unless you think 99.9% of the people wouldn't mind the other 0.1% fencing off all the land and renting them the right to use it...)
Re:The snowball effect. (Score:2)
If you want ANY laws, law enforcement, or judicial services, that's a government. For a government to maintain even a semblance of impartiality, it has to be publicly funded by all.
"Paid for by those who use them"... Here's a hint, they already partially are. It's called bribes. You expect a system completely funded this way to be unbiased? What court would EVER find against Microsoft on anything if Bill was paying their bills?
Any form of non-publicly funded laws basically ammount to a bunch of libertarians who hire a private army to enforce their rules.
It's a nice fantasy world you've got there...
Libertarianism is founded on the idea that ownership rights are absolute, and that you don't "initiate" violence. Well, yeah. YOUR ownership rights are absolute, and I should never initiate violence against you.
Should we respect the ownership rights of people whose ancestors stole land by killing the inhabitants? What if I'm a decendent of one of the original owners?
Libertarianism is a philosophy of contradiction, Apply harsh rules to them, and make them pay for the privelage, but don't take any money from me or it's government initiation of violence and I'll come out shooting.
Yawn...
Re:Also, write your senators!!!! (Score:2)
Unfortunately the world is run by C (Not the code, the grade) students. This letter is so far above their heads it might as well be the space shuttle.
Please consider this constructive critisim.
Sorry for the atrocious spelling.
Pete
Re:k12 computer use waiver, anyone? (Score:2)
In this room alone, I've got three machines. One is a triple boot (Dos 6.22, Windows '95, Linux), one Progeny box, and one 'doze '98 machine. Plans include two networked mp3 players (need to find the money for some lcd screens, and then I'm ready to go) and two networked mame cabinets (one standup, one cocktail). And that's before I put all of the wireless shwag I ganked from work into use.
What is somebody in the school supposed to teach my kid?
BTW, in discussions with my wife about when jr. is allowed to hit the net, my response was: as soon as he can figure out how to get root and give himself permission. I've got enough O'Reilly, etc. books that he should be able to figure that out:)
Re:My Thoughts... (Score:2)
Stupid teachers will take advantage of this (Score:2)
I can see a lot of geeky kids who aren't popular with other students or their teachers getting punished ... maybe as bad as what Skylarov is dealing with ... for expressing themselves in a way that many of their dumb teachers don't understand.
Re:once again... (Score:2)
Being from New Jersey... (Score:4)
I sent him a letter:
----
Uh-oh (Score:5)
This is what happens when... (Score:2)
The meat of the Bill (Score:4)
knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally affects or impairs without authorization a computer of an elementary school or secondary school or institution of higher education;'.
This is so vague that doing anything on a school computer could be considered a crime. Back in school, when a CS assignment was due, the entire network would grind to a halt as everyone was compiling their assignments on the server. Now I could have everyone else charged for hindering my work!
My Thoughts... (Score:2)
More than one have I had to break school district policy to make our computers even WORK. One time in AP Computer Science none of the compilers would work. So I generated a fix for them and even gave it to the admin who was SUPER pissed at me. Ended up that they used it at our other highschool because it wasnt working there. He talked to the principal about me "disrupting network operations". Luckly the principal knows me and didn't pursue it further. That would be a Level 4 violation, 5 days suspension..no questions asked.
Another time I used putty to login to my web server during homeroom (we werent doing anything) to both a) restart apache b) download a report for my next hour class. My advisor (total bitch) didn't understand anything I was doing and when she saw the black box popup she thought i was "hacking the grade server" and basically told me to get off before she reports me. I ignored her and again, I was reported. Luckly 5 minutes worth of explination to the principal got me out of it. This law would suck in the hands of people who dont know what they are doing. If my principal didnt trust me I'd probably be expelled by now, and that's breaking policy to HELP the school..damn lawmakers.
Re:My Thoughts... (Score:2)
1) our teacher was gone due to his wife having a baby, projects were due and this affected our ENTIRE class of 30 students, the admin didnt care at all about our network (he's such an ass that one time, he didn't change the toner in the printer in the lab till it printed only white sheets and the principal yelled at him..we submitted our printed out programs to the teacher and couldnt do it for several weeks)
2) the paper was due, i couldnt find it, it was either 1) take a 0 2) print it out..what would you choose?
Re:My Thoughts... (Score:2)
Why Ayn Rand novels read the way they do. (Score:2)
As a friend of mine put it in the '60s:
B-)
Obviously you've never read... (Score:2)
B-)
Comic book parodies. (Score:2)
Actually these ARE unintentional parodies.
Ditko was quite impressed by Objectivism, and wrote and drew two comic books with several stories to try to promote it.
Unfortunately, Ditko was NOT Any Rand and the techniques that worked well for Dr. Strange and Spider Man did NOT work well to get the messages of Objectivism across. It came out as ranting and transparent propaganda. An unintentional parody of Rand in comic book form.
Another crappy bill from Toricelli... (Score:2)
Re:Simple solution (Score:2)
Secondly, your example is easy to figure out. You stood trial for the crime, and were found guilty. Later, the law ceased to exist. This does not automatically grant you freedom from your imprisonment. Consider somebody caught moonshining before the repeal of Prohibition: once Prohibition was repealed the individual might still have to serve out his sentence.
However, if you did appeal and won, you're done. Youv'e stood trial once. Double jeopardy attaches - you cannot be tried again.
Simple solution (Score:3)
Right now, it is almost impossible to get a law repealed. This makes it a lot easier.
It also puts an effective cap on the number of laws that can exist - after a while, Congress spends all of its time renewing existing laws and cannot pass new ones.
In effect, it brings about evolution for laws: survival of the fittest via competition for scarce resources.
at least it makes spam illegal! (Score:2)
[TMB]
Torricelli gets tough on crime (Score:2)
Obviously, some crimes [freerepublic.com] are more important than others... god forbid we allow teens to hack their poorly run high school webserver and post a nasty comment about an unfavored teacher... that'd be criminal!
Now I'm just waiting for the "Condit Child Intern Protection Act of 2001" to get proposed...
*scoove*
Re:The snowball effect. (Score:2)
Oddly enough, while this overreaction (when measured against statistical data showing the actual decline of Colombine-type activities) presumes to prevent youth on youth violence, the actual legislation ends up being a target used to protect the state.
It's time to set aside the tired "Republicans vs. Democrats" misdirections and recognize that both sides are having great success at eliminating annoying liberties under the guise of protecting us.
*scoove*
Re:Unsolicited email to teachers (Score:3)
Civil libertarians need to watch for the same effect happening elsewhere - as it apparently is with Torricelli pushing this case. If teachers are being threatened (both of my folks are teachers as was my wife - and yes, it does and has happened to them as well), there are existing laws that apply.
It's as if we have a con game going on between legislators making unchecked power grabs by claiming to enhance people's "safety", totally backed by the stupid electoral marks that readily give away their rights for a false prize.
I've gotten ISP accounts cancelled, but the person always seems to resurface thanks to netzero Yea, the bad guys sure can be tough to prosecute. But I'm not sure a police state makes things any better, not to mention the cost in sacrificed rights to get there.
*scoove*
Re:Uh-oh (Score:2)
Does this still work with current versions of Windows? AFAIK, a patch for this has been existing for ages, and even the dumbest MCSE should have applied it by now...
Re:On Senators of the Republic and Interrupts (Score:2)
Yeah, but writing virii is doing actual damages. So you'd only confirm the Senator in his intentions.
Or are you somehow implying that writing macro virii is ok, whereas (attempting to) login into a Unix box is not?
Re:Computers don't belong in schools (Score:2)
-----------------------
I would have been jailed : ( (Score:2)
He figured this out about 2 hrs later and I go called to his office and everything got straightened out all fine.
It is really scary to think that I would have possibly gone to jail for this.
Try working in K12 IT, then we'll talk . . . (Score:2)
You know what chews up and wastes more of my time than anything? Fixing machines that some kid has "hacked" (for lack of a better term). Teachers and students expect to be able to use any computer in the district for their work, and rightly so. When someone intentionally breaks functionality (or does it inadvertantly while trying to break something else), it wastes everyone's time, especially mine. And it erodes everyone's belief that computers belong in schools.
Why is this legislation (or perhaps some similar but phrased better) needed? Because while most schools have rules about destruction of school property, they have no idea how to deal with "hacking" (again, for lack of a better term).
If it helps keep my systems running, then I'm fine with it. It's survival for me.
Once More... (Score:4)
Re:Unsolicited email to teachers (Score:2)
Torricelli comment page (Score:5)
Of course, this is the same Senator Torricelli who is being investigated for illegal donations to his campaign. One DOJ official called him the "most corrupt politician in America" [foxnews.com]. And that's with some tough competition, I'm sure!
What a delight this guy is.
What a fool! Affects != damages!!! (Score:2)
If I send email spontaneously to my computer science professor asking him something that I forgot to ask in class, I could now be in violation of a federal statute?!?! It is legislation like this that makes me believe more than ever in Cicero's old saying "More laws, less justice."
Go to Congress.org and email your congresscritters now, especially your senators. Threaten them that you will not vote for them, will campaign for other candidates, will donate to other causes and campaigns.... tell them their getting your vote and money is riding on this bill and that you are watching their every action regarding this bill like Big Brother!
Re:Yep (Score:2)
Good thing this wasn't around in 1999 (Score:2)
What is it with politicians??? (Score:2)
"The more laws, the more corrupt the state."
Re:Unsolicited email to teachers (Score:2)
How much of junk a day you throw in near by garbage can next to your mailbox? Just delete the mail, it won't kill you :)
i guess they just don't understand (Score:2)
I'm thinking perhaps oreilly and the other gangs of conventioneers should start dragging senators (not congressmen their votes don't have the impact that a senators does, the stature) to OSS conventions and dmcs protests and the like and educate them. they won't learn otherwise.
Think of the Children! (Score:2)
"We did, Ma'am. Look, we're sewing little orange jumpsuits, and contracting out their prison terms to a company owned by Disney! Kids love Disney, right?"
-----------------------------------------------
I would take out the "UNIX box" paragraph... (Score:2)
--snip--
For example, I think that I have an account on a school computer, when in fact I do not. This could be because there are multiple computers at the school and I simply logged in at the wrong one. If I attempt to log in at this computer it will "affect or impair" its operation by using its resources to deny my login. I am then prosecutable under this law and subject to the whims of the school administration, system admitstrators, and the District Attorney.
--snip--
Aside from that I recommend you write your senators; include your address (to prove constituency), and use snail mail! They don't pay nearly as much attention to email, even from constituents.
Re:once again... (Score:2)
-= rei =-
Re:once again... (Score:2)
Re:dude. (Score:2)
That's rather naive, and quite a generalization.
-= rei =-
Re:What a fool! Affects != damages!!! (Score:2)
2. Email is rather ineffective against congressional leaders, and neither are threats. A kind, well-worded letter works best for the amount of time it takes.
-= rei =-
Re:The meat of the Bill (Score:2)
Wow, things must've really changed in the past 5 years... my (good) HS of 3,000 students had one computer course - "computer math". It was all about writing the most basic of mathematics algorithms in gwbasic. I spent the class writing games and a login-emulator to "borrow" passwords, including the teacher's. In my final project, I begged her to let me use C and go beyond the scope of the course. She let me
And, oy vey, have I gotten off topic
-= rei =-
Re:once again... (Score:2)
-= rei =-
Re:once again... (Score:2)
As a whole, the democrats support the beliefs of groups like the ACLU. There are exceptions to every group.
-= rei =-
Re:-1 : Totally wrong (Score:2)
2) I disagree with your other post as well, but perhaps you were speaking in the context of a senator. And, senators vary *extremely* in the amount of constituents they represent. Broad, sweeping statements such as yours are innaccurate. Compare the constituents a senator from California has compared to a senator from Idaho. Its not even close.
3) Why are you posting AC? Are you afraid of moderation?
-= rei =-
Re:dude. (Score:2)
1. Not all do. Some try to dodge the issue because they believe in reduced spending.
2. If 1 occurs, 2 will.
3. While most republicans support 3, most democrats don't. The "we'll cut your funding" is almost exclusively a republican (but not every case, of course) maneuver.
4. Silly picture of congress
-= rei =-
Re:What a fool! Affects != damages!!! (Score:2)
Good enough of a reference?
-= rei =-
Re:-1 : Totally wrong (Score:2)
The parent of this thread may have been in error by referring to both the house and senate, but then, your complaints about that should have been to the parent, and not my post.
-= rei =-
Re:This is what happens when... (Score:5)
1. Don't use email. Emails aren't trusted in congress even by the most tech-savvy representatives. Use snail mail (c'mon, its not too hard!). Email is just generally compiled into statistics, which aren't trusted very much themselves.
2. The more personal, the better. The best thing you can do is meet in person with them (and you'd be surprised, they almost always do their best to accomodate their public, though they have incredibly busy schedules). A phone call is probably next best, followed closely by a hand-written letter. A typed letter is still good, though. All of the aforementioned methods of communication will almost certainly be dealing directly with your representative, not a secretary unless they are very busy. Representatives like to stay in touch with their constituency.
3. The less people care about the issue (especially the representative in question), the more of an effect you'll have.
-= rei =-
Far too draconiam (Score:2)
As you said "It won't stop stuff from happening, but it will lessen it..", but shooting people when they jaywalk would lessen that too far.
The intent is not the problem, but the looseness of the wording is. That's like saying I can use "suitable force" to keep robbers away, but not specifying. Maybe I think land mines in my yard are suitable force. Without definition, we cannot determine right or wrong or draw the line for a logical argument.
Re:Sent message to Senator Leahy (Score:2)
Used to happen with telephones (Score:3)
People used to do this via telephone before. Unfortunately it is a standard part of being an educateor at a public school.
Once kids realised the joy of *69 or *53 to return calls or traced them, they tended to stop with the calls. As more students are nailed for doing stupid stuff with computers, then this too will slow.
One recommendation, like everything else. If you deal with lots of people, have a public account and a private account. That way when you want family e-mail, you don't have to dig through as much spam.
An Australian Perspective (Score:3)
My school, after losing their T1 connection to the demise of One.Tel, recently installed a high-speed link from Telstra. This I have no problem with. What I have a problem with is that they have also installed the proxy-based filter WebSense (as in doesn't have any) to censor their access.
This means I can't access my email as the parent website (Subdimension [subdimension.com]) is filtered by WebSense as a "Proxy Avoidance System" because the website has an "anonymizer" feature on the site. I am forced to browsing "forbidden" websites (Slashdot is not one of them, thankfully) through Babelfish.
Needless to say that if this legislation ever catches on in Australia (let's hope it doesn't), it will make my efforts to "bypass" this "feature" illegal. This legislation obviously doesn't come from a mandate from the people. It's a result of technically ignorant politicians with a so-called moral conscience try to run our lives their way.
Self Bias Resistor
Re:What is it with politicians??? (Score:2)
Depends on the law. We need fewer laws that restrict our freedoms. What we need is more laws that limit the power of Government and wealthy corporations: campaign finance reform, "sunshine" laws, laws that hold public officials accountable for abuses of power, consumer protection laws, enviornmental protection laws, and so forth.
The US government derives it's legitimate authority to govern from the Constitution [loc.gov]. The Constitution limits the Federal government's authority to only those powers explictly granted to it (per the 10th amendment [loc.gov]). Unfortunately, Congress frequently oversteps it's Constitutional authority (How many times have they ignored the phrase "Congress shall pass no law..."?). Unfortunately, the Constitution has a bug: any law that Congress passes and the President signs are automatically presumed to be Constitutional until they are challanged in the courts. The president is supposed to Veto any unconstitutional legislation; unfortunately most Presidents seem to shirk this duty in favor of advancing their own political agendas. The whole situation is enought to make you sick.
Re:Unsolicited email to teachers (Score:2)
So? Why destroy our educational system over that?
Re:The snowball effect. (Score:2)
ESPECIALLY if it's "for the children."
The snowball effect. (Score:3)
Okay, that's a bit on the paranoid side, but realistically now that they know they can push us around, having already passed and enforced the DMCA, what'll stop them from passing this law? It reminds me of a quote from the last year's political election. A pollster for one of the two big parties mentioned that he'd discovered that women universally respond positively to the phrase, "For the children," regardless of context. This law's already signed, sealed, and delivered. Forget free speech, forget rights, get ready to be ass-rammed by some guy named Guido for the next ten years.
And usually, by the time a law like this is even announced, the decisions have already mostly been made. "Write your Congressman!" is a naive call to action. What we need are pre-emptive measures to heavily favor our cause. What we should be sponsoring is not ex post facto protests and lawsuits, but making sure that geek-friendly laws are made from the beginning.
The EFF is doing great work, but what we really need is not a legal organization, but a lobbying organization.
Re:School Systems (Score:2)
In any case, any use of nmap is deemed to be a hostile activity, and make sure you have permission of a machines owner before using it on their machine.
---
Stupid lawmakers! (Score:2)
So stupid, it can't even pass. (Score:2)
"Whoever knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally affects or impairs without authorization a computer of an elementary school or secondary school or institution of higher education; [shall be punished by] ) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than..."
It goes on for a bit, title 18 section 1030 is available at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1030.text.h
It's pretty obvious that this bill wouldn't stand up to the simplest constitutional challenge. It's also pretty obvious that it'll never see the light of day-- even the worst bills that get passed make more sense than this. What's possible is that this will get amended to not be so mind-numbingly stupid, and will say something like "threatens or harasses", although a lot of that is already in 1030.
So, can we learn anything useful from this debacle? Only one thing: Bob Toricelli is duller than a bag of hammers.
Yep (Score:3)
(OK, I don't know if he was the one who said this first, but I first encountered this notion, stated more or less this way, in 1984.)
Excuse me? (Score:4)
Hack a school's website with a weekly calendar: 10 years in jail
Look on the 16 year-old's face when the Secret Service are knocking on the door: Priceless
k12 computer use waiver, anyone? (Score:3)
I'd like to see school districts come up with a wavier to keep my kids off their precious computers. I'd sign it in a heartbeat. So should any other person who understands the k12 computer situation.
I want my kids to be something more than monkeys pushing buttons (yep, k12 level computing is exactly that, or your kid's suspended). I'd rather have them playing music, doing art, or learning how to do math.
I have a multi-node network at home with all sorts of boxen for them to play/learn on. WTF does any kid in k12 need a computer for anyway? Teachers don't understand them. Computers are wasted in the classroom. We would all be better off if computers were there for just the memo-fetishists and poledit-fetishists to enjoy.
Unsolicited email to teachers (Score:4)
The end result, though, is depressing. Teachers trying to help decent, hardworking students by offering their email addresses are harassed viciously, and are offered no more defense than any person against everyday SPAM, unless there is a blatant threat.
Twice, emails with full headers in hand, I've gotten ISP accounts cancelled, but the person always seems to resurface thanks to netzero, juno, freei, etc, using a hotmail or yahoo email address. Police can/will/should do nothing unless there is a threat of harm, but it's a shame. I hope this law becomes widespread, well known, and strengthened by numerous precedents to the point that this kind of abuse declines substantially. Educators should not need to take the abuse they are often faced with. These kind of acts, hopefully, will keep the educators who truly care (they're the ones releasing their email addresses in the first places, right?) from taking abuse from students who dont, so that they can concentrate on teaching the students who want to make the best of the sad situation that is our public school system.
Y'know... (Score:4)
---
heh (Score:3)
This would've made my high-school Apple basic program a crime, eh?
Ah it was such pleasure watching from a distance as the librarian tried to get the image to stabilize...and gosh how did the computer know???
So I will join the chorus and say "Thank goodness I'm out of school, because I would probably be in jail now!" (Not for that BASIC program particularly. But then again who knows? Having to adjust the monitor caused the librarian all sorts of harm and damages and theft of intellectual property and loss of wages).
Re:School Systems (Score:5)
The Lottery:
What the...? (Score:5)
Re:What is it with politicians??? (Score:4)
Then vote Libertarian Party [lp.org], doofus.
Alternatively, let's throw all of our politicos into one big room without access to food, water, toilet facilities, phones, net access or law books and get them to write down all the laws that they can remember (50% of them are members of the American Bar Association, they should be up to the job). When the last of them passes out, we hand over their rabid scribblings to the Supreme Court judges and let them vet the whole damn lot (without We, the People having to pay money to argue cases all the way up to that court one at a time). Then we're done. That's the new legal system.