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The Yin and Yang of Hour of Code & Immigration Reform

samzenpus posted about 10 months ago | from the take-this-job dept.

United States 220

theodp writes "The weeklong Hour of Code kicks off tomorrow, with Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates doing their part to address a declared nationwide CS crisis by ostensibly teaching the nation's schoolchildren how to code. But a recent NY Times Op-Ed by economist Paul Collier criticizing Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC as self-serving advocacy (echoing earlier criticism) serves as a reminder that Zuckerberg and Gates' Code.org and Hour of Code involvement is the Yin to their H-1B visa lobbying Yang. The two efforts have been inextricably linked together for Congress, if not for the public. And while Zuckerberg argues it's 'the right thing to do', Collier argues that there are also downsides to the tech giants' plans to shift more bright, young, enterprising people from the poorest countries to the richest. 'An open door for the talented would help Facebook's bottom line,' Collier concludes, 'but not the bottom billion.'"

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YOU STUPID IDOT (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636723)

IT is YING and yang. Get it right or pay the price!

Re:YOU STUPID IDOT (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636739)

An iDot? Is this Apple's new next thing to tell you when you're about to expire?

Re:YOU STUPID IDOT (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636777)

Parasites.

Uses complex offshore shell companies in order to not pay taxes to fund roads, schools, community, civilization.
Wont train Americans (or anyone else) in IT, actively seeking to import labor again that someone else paid for their education

how is this company even got a voice in America? in the old days they would be run out of town or worse

today ? frell you you i got mine and there is nothing you can do to stop me

Re:YOU STUPID IDOT (1)

Fluffeh (1273756) | about 10 months ago | (#45636945)

Actually, the internets disagree with you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang [wikipedia.org]

Mod parent down (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637009)

Couldn't you be more creative than to cite a website that doesn't stop psych ward patients from slinging whatever garbage up on it as they please?

Re:YOU STUPID IDOT (2)

game kid (805301) | about 10 months ago | (#45637183)

To be fair, AC's probably too busy with a Ying Yang Twins [wikipedia.org] track whispering [wikipedia.org] in their ear to think straight.

Re:YOU STUPID IDOT (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45638033)

We really need a -1, Wallows in Wrongness mod.

Two of the most immoral people (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636725)

telling the rest how it's done.

Re:Two of the most immoral people (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636755)

yeah spending hundreds of millions of dollars eradicating diseases like malaria in poor countries is so immoral...oh right but you only care that Windows is closed source.

Re:Two of the most immoral people (3, Interesting)

Okian Warrior (537106) | about 10 months ago | (#45636797)

yeah spending hundreds of millions of dollars eradicating diseases like malaria in poor countries is so immoral...oh right but you only care that Windows is closed source.

To be fair, Gates got that money by breaking the law. His unfair competition resulted worldwide adoption of an insecure system, causing untold hardship across the industry (against more robust systems with few security flaws).

Should we cheer Al Capone for the good he was doing for Chicago?

Re:Two of the most immoral people (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636871)

Should we cheer Al Capone for the good he was doing for Chicago?

Nobody said you should cheer anybody, only that some people clearly have a warped sense of morals when their own choice to use Windows funds cures for diseases in third world countries and they are bitter about it.

To be fair, Gates got that money by breaking the law.

no, to be fair he did it by clever business in the early days (in the days of IBM vs Microsoft there weren't many people cheering on IBM to win) and the later attempts to lock in to internet explorer were the subject of anti-trust trials (and retribution) but this was after he had made his fortune and really MS were simply ahead of the curve, what consumer internet device these days comes without a browser built in? shit even your phone and tv ship with them. private APIs? yep pretty much every system has them too these days.

the reality is the competition at the time was worthless (OS/2) or unwilling to separate hardware and software (the various unixes), by the time a viable alternative emerged (GNU/Linux in the late 90s when it became somewhat decent and supported common hardware) the use of Windows was already the defacto standard and people didnt want to change.

His unfair competition resulted worldwide adoption of an insecure system, causing untold hardship across the industry (against more robust systems with few security flaws).

what a load of crap, Windows may not have been the most secure system but against the horrible burden of IBM and the infancy and general lack of usability of GNU/Linux, Windows was the obvious choice and a choice made by people who were indeed free to choose. To this day some people would rather pretend they were completely helpless and at the mercy of big bad Microsoft than admit they made a poor choice.

That aside it does indeed prove my point that even if you took this "Robin Hood" mentality of doing something "evil" in technology and using the gains to help cure diseases and improve the quality of life in poor countries there are still people who feel that's a terrible thing.

Re: Two of the most immoral people (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636983)

Actually up until the point of the gates foundation, Bill Gates was the ultimate Scrooge. He gae away not one penny, it wasn't until he was called out on that very fact that the Gates foudration was formed.

Even much of the supposedly altruistic efforts also seem to have an angle:
http://m.slashdot.org/story/171367

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/31/bill-gates-corporate-profit-vs-humanity.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Philanthropy

Re: Two of the most immoral people (1)

nbauman (624611) | about 10 months ago | (#45638505)

Actually up until the point of the gates foundation, Bill Gates was the ultimate Scrooge. He gae away not one penny, it wasn't until he was called out on that very fact that the Gates foudration was formed.

Even much of the supposedly altruistic efforts also seem to have an angle

That's right. Gates was hated, and he wanted to do something about it before Congress held any more hearings and found something (like antitrust) to prosecute him for.

The philanthropy thing was created by his PR agency, and they did a good job. At their advice, he did fund some important projects, like international disease programs that were exactly what all the public health people knew would give tremendous returns for only a relatively few (billion) dollars.

He was like John D. Rockefeller, the other billionaire (after inflation) who was also hated, and hired a PR firm to improve his image. They had him give away shiny dimes to little children. He also did some good things, like his medical research. Fortunately cancer is a favorite rich folks' cause (along with opera).

The problem is that he also followed the advice of the corporate right wing. He was part of what Diane Ravitch called the "billionaire boy's club" of school "reformers" http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/sep/29/school-reform-failing-grade/ [nybooks.com] who wanted to privatize public schools, humiliate the teachers, destroy their union, rate them with high-stakes testing, and turn education into an assembly line of short-answer questions.

We've turned this country over to the billionaires. It shows you the benefits and problems of letting dictators run things. Gates did some good things (world epidemics) and some bad things (charter schools).

When he gets involved in (tax-deductible) charities that bring his own interests into conflict with the interests of others, like immigration "reform", you know whose side he's going to be on.

I personally don't think this would be a very good country if we turned it into a billionaire's playground rather than the imperfect democracy it used to be.

Re:Two of the most immoral people (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637203)

No, Okian is right. You and the some of the mods are probably too young to have remembered what MS did in the late '80s and '90s. They (along with Intel) controlled the PC platform, which was over 95 percent of the personal computing market (Apple was a marginal player back then), and MS made damn sure that

1) operating system competitors were crushed - even OS/2, which Microsoft originally co-developed with IBM. Microsoft made PC manufacturers like Dell buy Windows licenses based on the number of PCs they shipped, regardless of whether they had Windows installed or not. Microsoft also made sure that Windows 3.x would only run on MS-DOS, and not DR-DOS from Digital Research, by deliberately introducing incompatibilities.

2) PC application software competitors were crushed - Windows 3.x, although popular, was one of the most unstable operating environments that ever shipped in volume, although I supposed the Mac OS at the time probably gave it competition on that score. There were ridiculously low (often 64K) system-wide limits on several different kinds of resources, and if that resource were exhausted you'd get a blue screen. The COM-based OLE/ActiveX mechanism pitched by Microsoft as the biggest technical advance of the OS was poorly designed and incredibly hard to program. But the Microsoft Office developers worked closely with the Windows team and stayed on top of all the changes in the APIs and got the inside scoop on how to get the best performance and avoid some of the instabilities (I should mention there were thousands of system calls; Bill Gates himself acknowledged during the trial there were about 6000). Microsoft would make subtle changes in the kernel from release to release that would affect compatibility of applications, often timing changes to occur right after a competitor released their product (these were the days where application software was sold via shrink wrap and it was very costly to recall a product). TA guy named Andrew Shulman did some kernel-level hacking and wrote a couple books about this, one of which was called 'Undocumented Windows'.

3) Microsoft came close to stealing IP from other companies, including Go - Jerry Kaplan gave Gates and Jeff Raikes a demo of his pen-operated tablet under an NDA, and discovered six months later that MS had started the Pen Windows project under the direction of Raikes - and Sybase (why do you think both companies sell a database product called SQL Server?).

4) When Netscape made the then-novel decision to release their browser (Navigator) as a free download for a trial period, Microsoft decided to "cut off their air supply" (their words) by releasing Internet Explorer (a browser they purchased from a company called Spyglass after Navigator's release) as part of Windows. Not just as an app that happened to ship with Windows, but as a necessary PART OF WINDOWS - as they claimed themselves, they were unable to satisfy European regulator's demands that they allow manufacturers to ship with Netscape instead of IE. The best they could do, MS told them, would be to allow OEMs to ship with both browsers if they chose.

Gates was a robber baron in the mode of Rockefeller and Carnegie, whose biographies I'm sure he read. And he followed their example of turning to philanthropy later in life.

Re:Two of the most immoral people (2, Informative)

spmkk (528421) | about 10 months ago | (#45637503)

...Microsoft decided to "cut off their air supply" (their words) by releasing Internet Explorer (a browser they purchased from a company called Spyglass after Navigator's release) as part of Windows. Not just as an app that happened to ship with Windows, but as a necessary PART OF WINDOWS...

The skeeziest part of that deal actually wasn't Microsoft's attack on Netscape - it was their raw screwing of Spyglass. For those who don't remember this history, Microsoft licensed Mosaic (which they re-branded as Internet Explorer) from Spyglass for a minimal quarterly licensing fee plus a cut of the revenue from every copy of the browser that they sold. They then proceeded to give the browser away for free** with every copy of Windows, thereby not owing Spyglass any of the commission. Spyglass threatened legal action but apparently never took any, opting to settle for an $8M payout [wikipedia.org] for a piece of technology that made Microsoft hundreds of billions.

** I never understood why Spyglass didn't sue Microsoft on the basis that (by Microsoft's own declaration, as AC pointed out) Internet Explorer was an integral part of Windows, and thus some share of the sales revenue for every copy of Windows was de facto revenue from the sale of Internet Explorer. Maybe someone more familiar with the back-story can fill in this blank?

Re:Two of the most immoral people (1)

Your.Master (1088569) | about 10 months ago | (#45637871)

I'm not familiar with the backstory, but my intuition tells me, and this article agrees (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/january/new0122d.htm), that once the payout happened it replaced the royalty deal. That settlement was January 1997, long predating any serious integration of IE with Windows (IE4 was the first with shell integration in October 1997).

Re:Two of the most immoral people (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 10 months ago | (#45638259)

Gates was a robber baron in the mode of Rockefeller and Carnegie

What was Gates' equivalent to the Homestead Strike [wikipedia.org] ? Please, stop the hyperbole. It doesn't help your arguments. I remember Microsoft in the 80's and (especially) the 90's. Their sleazy business practices should have been stopped. They did economic harm to customers (the main concern of anti-trust law). The company should have been broken up after the anti-trust trial (MS Office on Linux would make Linus desktop adoption much easier). Nevertheless, last I checked, Microsoft IP goons are generally unarmed.

Re:Two of the most immoral people (4, Informative)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 10 months ago | (#45637257)

MS had already engaged in some serious antitrust behavior circa 1990, before they were anywhere near the behemoth they are today.

what a load of crap, Windows may not have been the most secure system but against the horrible burden of IBM and the infancy and general lack of usability of GNU/Linux, Windows was the obvious choice and a choice made by people who were indeed free to choose. To this day some people would rather pretend they were completely helpless and at the mercy of big bad Microsoft than admit they made a poor choice.

Have you considered that the lack of viable competition might have been the result of robust set of anti-competitive practices? Also, by grossly oversimplifying things like you did, you forget that things weren't all that simple. MS was strong-arming OEMs if they dared to install competing OS's or browsers, and they ignored standards in IE while actively breaking compatibility of plugins.

Re:Two of the most immoral people (1)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about 10 months ago | (#45637611)

Clever, aggressive, and at times outright illegal business practices. Windows may have won because of a lack of good competition (in part due to MS efforts to sabotage OS/2), but they also used a bundling technique to kill off competition for browser and media players, and a lock-in technique to achieve dominance for a time in media technology.

The old 'divx ;-)' codec was actually just Microsoft's video codec with a hack. The codec was fine, but the decoder shipped with Windows was deliberately limited to only decode if the data was coming from an ASF/WMV file - so if you wanted to use this very advanced (for the time) codec, you had to use only Microsoft's encoders and playback software. Further, if you actually read the license for the ASF specification, one of the requirements for implementing it was that your software must not save video in any format other than ASF - making it impossible to legally transcode their Windows-playable-only format into anything else. That's why they threatened the creator of virtualdub with legal action. Lock-in tricks like that served to effectively place great barriers in the way of interopability. You could use linux or BSD - but you won't be able to play video, at least until someone cracks and rebrands the codec.

Re:Two of the most immoral people (1)

sunderland56 (621843) | about 10 months ago | (#45638489)

Should we cheer Al Capone for the good he was doing for Chicago?

Many people do. He donated a significant amount of money to charity, and ran several soup kitchens during the depression.

Unlike Bill Gates, he helped people throughout his career, not only after he'd become filthy rich and needed a tax deduction.

Parasites (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636745)

Uses complex offshore shell companies in order to not pay taxes to fund roads, schools, community, civilization.
Wont train Americans (or anyone else) in IT, actively seeking to import labor again that someone else paid for their education

how is this company even got a voice in America? in the old days they would be run out of town or worse

today ? fuck you you i got mine and there is nothing you can do to stop me

Re:Parasites (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636805)

Wont train Americans (or anyone else) in IT, actively seeking to import labor again that someone else paid for their education

It isnt their responsibility to train you, stop being such an entitlist cockbag.

All the big tech companies should just leave America, with all the complaints that they are avoiding taxes and that they are just hiring offshore workers they would be better off setting up in another country anyway. In the global economy you need to give companies an incentive to stay and support your local economy. Why should they even stay in America?

Re:Parasites (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 10 months ago | (#45638301)

stop being such an entitlist

Why? FB/Zuck and MS/Gates are the ultimate entitlists. They think they're entitled to not pay taxes, unlike us middle class schnooks. They think they're entitled to special government programs, like the H-1B visa program, to increase the profitability of already wealthy corporations and their major stockholders.

By contrast, you play the useful idiot [wikipedia.org] , regurgitating propaganda like the "global economy you need to give companies an incentive to stay and support your local economy". As for "why should they even stay in America", they would have left a long time ago if they thought it would increase their profits. They have no commitment to the United States, or the slightest shred of patriotism, or belief in the ethics of reciprocity towards the country that fostered the creation of those corporations and their immense personal wealth.

Re:Parasites (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about 10 months ago | (#45638347)

Its not their responsibility to train you but we probably should ask the question whey they don't want to. Is it because the American education system is not turning out young adults that are even fit for entry level positions in tech firms?

Is it that other nations are turning out young adults that are so much better qualified?

Do companies no longer see a benefit from developing and retaining talent in house? People used to have entire professional careers at just one or two organizations. Why has this changed?

It is a problem that companies don't seem to want to hire anyone without a decade of experience now. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have than but young enough not have ageism close the doors to us as well can do okay, for now...

I like many of my peers I talk to at different organizations, get great reviews but never "promoted" I mean we get title promotions where they add additional roman numerals on our business cards and pay bumps but the job does not really change. When something like a team lead position opens up they almost always hire an outsider. It was clear at one company I spent a lot years at I was never going to get moved up in the organization sense. As soon I left an went somewhere else laterally for a little while though, I saw the position I had wanted their open up and got the job with no more than a phone call "So you want to come back? Great!". I am certain though had I still be occupying my old desk I never would have been considered for the potion.

As I have stated before I have many friends with very similar experiences. Its weird as a policy I don't really understand it. Maybe the idea is it brings outside ideas in. I can understand seeking to do this if the business practice/unit at a given organization is immature in terms of process or unsuccessful but when you have a sub organization that is working why not promote from within?

What is going on?

Re:Parasites (3, Insightful)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about 10 months ago | (#45636855)

Uses complex offshore shell companies in order to not pay taxes to fund roads, schools, community, civilization.

They pay plenty of taxes, including payroll taxes, sales taxes, and taxes on dividends and capital gains paid by their shareholders. They only avoid income tax. But corporate income tax comes out of the pockets of some combination of their employees, customers, and shareholders. If you think employees should pay more, then raise payroll taxes. If you think customers should pay more, then raise sales taxes. If you think shareholders should pay more then raise taxes on dividends and capital gains. Any of those would make far more sense than continuing a poorly designed corporate income tax is easily avoided, collects little revenue, and pushes jobs and investment out of America.

Re:Parasites (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 10 months ago | (#45638361)

They pay plenty of taxes ...

How did you determine it's "plenty", by noting that they pay more in the way of taxes than you do? "Plenty" should be in proportion to income.

But corporate income tax comes out of the pockets of some combination of their employees, customers, and shareholders.

"Some combination" leaves a lot of latitude and the biggest question of all unanswered. You did however make the observation that there's no such thing as a free lunch. Let me add that the sun rises in the east and that water is wet. They're all truisms, but so obviously true as to make the mention of them trite.

If you think customers should pay more, then raise sales taxes. If you think shareholders should pay more then raise taxes on dividends and capital gains.

I'll vote for the last. Taxing "long term" (greater than 1 year is long term?) capital gains at a a max marginal rate of 15%, even if you're a billionaire, while middle class schnooks pay a higher marginal rate on their earned income (IRS term), is obscene. Have you noticed the vast political movement to change that? Or that the average person in the street, fed "information" by the sycophantic media, are even aware of such an absurd disparity?

a poorly designed corporate income tax is easily avoided

To the extent that it's poorly designed, it's because of all the loopholes "requested" by the likes of Gates and Zuck. Despite the bleatings of major corporations and their sycophants, the US effective corporate income tax rate is modest by world standards. I'm all for eliminating the loopholes and reducing the nominal rate, but there seems to be little push for it. Why? Because those that have been most effective in pushing their political/economic agendas are the ones who benefit most from those loopholes.

Re:Parasites (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about 10 months ago | (#45638431)

I'll vote for the last. Taxing "long term" (greater than 1 year is long term?) capital gains at a a max marginal rate of 15%, even if you're a billionaire, while middle class schnooks pay a higher marginal rate on their earned income (IRS term), is obscene. Have you noticed the vast political movement to change that? Or that the average person in the street, fed "information" by the sycophantic media, are even aware of such an absurd disparity?

The problem here is there are people who are middle class and people who think they are middle class. You are middle class if you have a professional job or are a tradesmen with some savings and the ability to make choices. You quit and move to a different city because you want to for example. If you nothing but debts and your credit is maxed out and would be looking at foreclosure after a few months if you lose a job, you are not middle class. I don't care how big your McMansion is or have many SUVs you have parked on the driveway with no equity in. You sir are still poor.

The actual middle class has savings in investments and that 15% tax rates helps them lots. Its what enables them to save enough to retire and maintain their standard of living. Does it also function as give away to the very wealthy yes, but rates should be the same for everyone. Maybe it should be 15% on the first 100K and go up from there but just blanket raising the capital gains would be bad for middle class America.

Re:Parasites (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 10 months ago | (#45638609)

The actual middle class has savings in investments and that 15% tax rates helps them lots.

The vast majority of middle class investments are in IRA's and 401k's, where they should be, and where you don't pay taxes on them until you retire anyway. Very few retirees pay above a 15% tax rate, so the limit on capitals gains rates doesn't help them at all.

Maybe it should be 15% on the first 100K and go up from there but just blanket raising the capital gains would be bad for middle class America.

That's the same idea as the progressive rates on other forms of income. Ergo, there is no need to do anything other than eliminate the 15% ceiling on capital gains rates. Even Reagan thought that was a good idea, and signed into law a bill that did that.

Re:Parasites (1, Insightful)

DigiShaman (671371) | about 10 months ago | (#45637137)

The new America: Crushing the middle class, consolidating wealth to the 0.25% of the wealthy, and importing cheap labor and/or outsourcing work. America is starting to become the new Mexico where we have a new have and have-not society. The middle-class is a threat to those in power and wanting to stay in power. This nation is fucked. And we haven't even talked about soon-to-be hyper inflation spurned by insolvency. But that's ok right? Hyper inflation will just create an even larger disparity in wealthy. By design!!!

Re:Parasites (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637229)

The new America: Crushing the middle class, consolidating wealth to the 0.25% of the wealthy, and importing cheap labor and/or outsourcing work.

I'd suggest you to stay with an eye on the GINI index [wikipedia.org] : it doesn't look that bad (yet).

Talk about blind (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 10 months ago | (#45637455)

Wont train Americans (or anyone else) in IT

What mindless babble is this? It's posted in the VERY STORY about the "hour of code" designed to train young people everywhere (which includes Amercia!) how to code!

As for not paying anything - the U.S. has the highest corporate tax rate on earth. Lots of companies (and people for that matter) don't mind paying taxes but hate being robbed. Can you blame them? Well I know YOU can, but could anyone reasonable?

Re:Talk about blind (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about 10 months ago | (#45638655)

It's posted in the VERY STORY about the "hour of code" designed to train young people everywhere (which includes Amercia!) how to code!

A week long "hour of code" just puts a positive spin on their overall program, which focuses mostly on things like the H-1B program. If you're fooled by that propaganda effort, then I've got a bridge to sell you.

Re:Parasites (1)

Trepidity (597) | about 10 months ago | (#45637717)

how is this company even got a voice in America? in the old days they would be run out of town or worse

Nah, in the old days people would've tried to run them out of town, but they would've hired some private thugs (Pinkertons, etc.) to run the other people out of town instead.

Re:Parasites (1)

couchslug (175151) | about 10 months ago | (#45637943)

" in the old days they would be run out of town or worse"

In which alternate universe were those "old days"?

In the real old days, companies hired Pinkertons etc to kill laborers who resisted them, and had little problem importing coolie labor.

When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (5, Insightful)

cervesaebraciator (2352888) | about 10 months ago | (#45636753)

Consider the interests of the would-be reformer.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (5, Interesting)

Taco Cowboy (5327) | about 10 months ago | (#45636849)

Consider the interests of the would-be reformer

Apparently that economist, Mr. Paul Collier, doesn't even have any braincell to think.

From the TFA:

Collier argues that there are also downsides to the tech giants' plans to shift more bright, young, enterprising people from the poorest countries to the richest

MOST of those young, bright and enterprising people from the POOREST COUNTRIES won't get ANY chance to tap on their potential in their own country, and I am speaking as someone who had been through exactly that scenario.

When I came out of China, back in the early 1970's, China was in a VERY TERRIBLE STATE.

Millions of ordinary citizens had died of hunger.

Social upheaval were everywhere - goons waving that little red book were ransacking/looting people's houses they accused of "anti-revolutionary".

If I WERE to stay in China, I had only two choices: Either joined those goons in doing all the WRONG THINGS they had been doing, or to stay absolutely low key, go into a remote village somewhere, and work as a farm hand.

But I got out of China and ended up in America.

In America, I got to further my education (I already had high school education back in China), I got to learn many things from many very brainy people who came to America from all over the world, I got the chance to participate in the American dream, I got to start my own companies, I got to sell my companies for huge profit and re-invest the monies into even more startups.

I could NEVER do any of that had I stuck in China.

Nowadays I am helping many young, bright and very enterprising people in poor countries in Asia, Africa and South America, by either inviting them to become my co-workers in the companies that I own (full or part), or I invest in their startups.

That Mr. Paul Collier is nothing but a talking head.

Most of the poor countries in the world simply do not have the infrastructure to allow those young, bright and enterprising people to do what they can do.

Most of the governments in those poor countries are mired in unbelievably mountains of bureaucratic red tapes, red tapes that do nothing but making the lives of their own citizens even that much more miserable.

I came from one of those poor countries, I know what was/is happening.

I am not saying that Bill Gates and/or Mark Zuckerberg are right to do whatever they do, but at least they are offering many young, bright and enterprising people from poor countries A CHANCE TO PROVE THEIR WORTH TO THE WORLD, and also to themselves.

As for Mr. Paul Collier, other than being a talking head, what did/does he do to help out those young, bright and enterprising people in the poorest countries in the world ?

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636927)

Nowadays I am helping many young, bright and very enterprising people in poor countries in Asia, Africa and South America, by either inviting them to become my co-workers in the companies that I own (full or part), or I invest in their startups.

Are you helping them IN the poor countries in Asia, Africa, and South America -- or are you bringing them to America and "helping" them here?

If all you ever do is bring people here, how the hell are the poor countries ever going to become anything other than poor? Build things THERE. Don't bring them here, to take opportunities from American citizens. Yeah, yeah, you have your little pity stories to tell about poverty and oppression, and I'm sure it's all true. But I care about that, and your "young, bright, and very enterprising people" from all over the world, to the exact same extent you care about anyone in America -- not at all.

The American Dream was supposed to be FOR Americans. Make your own damn dreams. No, seriously -- make all those other countries WORTH staying in, and living in, and being in. Or can you only have your dreams here in America, with the infrastructure paid for by Americans, with the legal systems built and maintained and paid for by Americans, with the society and ideals fought and paid and died for by Americans?

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (4, Insightful)

king neckbeard (1801738) | about 10 months ago | (#45637063)

Immigrants are an integral part of the American Dream and much of the success America has seen. Also, having success in the US doesn't mean that they can't come back at some point and also try to help their native country.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637255)

Immigrants are an integral part of the American Dream and much of the success America has seen.

Agree. Every time an H1B story is posted here, we get a lot of Tea Party-type comments from people who have the benefit of college educations and should know better. People should go back and look up the Know Nothing party of the 1840's, that was similar to the anti-immigrant stuff in America today.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637333)

H1B is not an immigrant visa.

The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows US employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in specialty occupations. If a foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change of status to another non-immigrant status, find another employer (subject to application for adjustment of status and/or change of visa), or leave the US.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa [wikipedia.org]

Tea Party welcomes LEGAL immigrants (4, Interesting)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 10 months ago | (#45637481)

Every time an H1B story is posted here, we get a lot of Tea Party-type comments from people

No you don't. I've been reading Slashdot for years and have never seen Tea Party members of any kind post against LEGAL immigration, which is healthy. In fact most of us stick up for H1B guys because we know a lot of them... it's the liberals who cry that H1B are stealing jobs from America and need to be banned.

The problem the Tea Party has is with illegal immigrants, which generally are not nearly as desirable or productive members of society (and who would expect they would be when the very act of coming here starts out by committing a crime?)

It's criminal how you and others cannot seem to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, which are vastly different things.

Re:Tea Party welcomes LEGAL immigrants (2)

Frankie70 (803801) | about 10 months ago | (#45637659)

I agree. Go to someplace like DailyKos. You will find a lot of anti-H1B rants by the same people who want illegals to be given amnesty.

Re:Tea Party welcomes LEGAL immigrants (1)

L. J. Beauregard (111334) | about 10 months ago | (#45637967)

Fine. Let's swarm every corner of this country with Homeland Security goons to collar anyone who looks a little brown, ask him Sus papeles, por favor, and beat the mierda out of him when he answers in English, all in the name of freedom. Let's build the Great Wall of Texas.

And the Tea Party can be the ones to propose some taxes to pay for it all.

Re:Tea Party welcomes LEGAL immigrants (2)

DarkOx (621550) | about 10 months ago | (#45638521)

Speaking as someone who would not be offended to be labels a TEA party member my problem with illegal immigration is its a basic question of rule of law. If the law does not work or we don't want to enforce it, than it should be repealed or amended. If its on the books it should be enforced. No exceptions no playing favorites, collar them a prosecute them; deport them. Its a stupid policy but we should change it not just ignore it and fail to enforce it.

Re:Tea Party welcomes LEGAL immigrants (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45638629)

Every time an H1B story is posted here, we get a lot of Tea Party-type comments from people

No you don't. I've been reading Slashdot for years and have never seen Tea Party members of any kind post against LEGAL immigration, which is healthy. In fact most of us stick up for H1B guys because we know a lot of them... it's the liberals who cry that H1B are stealing jobs from America and need to be banned.

The problem the Tea Party has is with illegal immigrants, which generally are not nearly as desirable or productive members of society (and who would expect they would be when the very act of coming here starts out by committing a crime?)

It's criminal how you and others cannot seem to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, which are vastly different things.

Require that EVERY H1B visa holder receives a minimum of $500,000 pay per year, plus remove all job change restrictions, and you will see the sham that is the H1B visa program. This isn't for the "best and brightest". It is for importation of cheap labor.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (4, Insightful)

artor3 (1344997) | about 10 months ago | (#45637319)

Oh for fuck's safe, "The American Dream was supposed to be FOR Americans"?? Which Americans were those? Are the Irish and Italians and Jews allowed to prosper, or is success only for the WASPs? Anyone who's willing to follow our laws and pay their taxes should be welcome. They certainly contribute more than the tax-dodging, money-laundering elite.

dude you are all a bunch of european immigrants (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45638131)

oh man spare me the "usa! usa!" bullshit.
not one of you "americans" can trace a grandparent to anywhere else but europe or asia or whatever.
maybe the natives. not you.

the great american nation... than why the f**k do you speak english (or spanish) !?
tell you what, the american dream was and is a european dream. oh and chinese too. mmm and jewish too ... whatever

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637145)

The issue isn't whether the best and the brightest from overseas should be able to fill the gaps in the demand for skilled workers. The issue is whether they should be doing it through the flawed H1-B program. If Zuckerberg and Gates were arguing for a streamlined path to citizenship or even green cards for workers with skills that are at a shortage in the US, that would be a different matter. But the H1-B allows companies to pay 60%-70% of what they would pay a citizen for 3-6 years before they get sent home.

If the workers could become US citizens, they could build their lives here and be active members of the community invested in our collective future. But the tech giants want disposable talent to use and send home. It's short-sighted and will ensure that we have a lot more foreign competition as skilled talent leaves at the end of their H1-Bs and build competing technology in their home countries.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637671)

I believe you're missing the part where being released/fired from the position is a direct deportation back to the home country. Essentially, the H1B also let's the company hold serious harm over the employee's welfare if they don't conform to whatever is required. Whether that breaks the country's work laws, or the person is forced to work 16 hour days for 8 hours pay, or even reduced wages in reality versus the recorded wages on the H1B application, the world may never know.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45638559)

I'm on a H1B working for Microsoft. My salary is at the same level as my American coworkers, and if Microsoft decides to lay me off tomorrow, I have 30 days to move to another tech company. Furthermore, Microsoft and Intel (I can't comment on the other companies) offers apply for a greencard on your behalf as standard when you start employment.

If you have a Masters degree, this greencard application takes around 2 years to complete.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform (1)

andy1307 (656570) | about 10 months ago | (#45637621)

Zuckerberg is worth 19 billion [forbes.com] . Assuming facebook saves 50k$ per year with every H1B hire...assuming zero costs for the hire...and assuming all of this is going straight into Zuckerberg's pocket, that's still chump change...

Company Towns (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636765)

The Mr. Potters of your nation want to train your children to work their machines.

There are plenty of American coders (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636771)

They just don't want to play American wages.

Re:There are plenty of American coders (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637513)

Turns out that there aren't "American" wages -- just wages.

Fuck you assholes (0, Flamebait)

Jonah Hex (651948) | about 10 months ago | (#45636791)

I taught myself DOS, then Windows, and I'm a rollout, packaging, migration specialist. I get hired to do the hard work and hand it over to H-1B's to do the migration and I'm out of work again. So fuck you guys who'll only pay for quality work for as short a time as possible then dump it to "best shore" people. Fuck you assholes who've screwed over everyone who built America's infrastructure. I'm sick of drinking bitter H-1B tea. /rant

Re:Fuck you assholes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636963)

Sorry you can't compete with people from third world fungus countries. Maybe that says more about you than your employer!

Re:Fuck you assholes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637295)

Yeah mark it troll... wait who is he trolling Bill Gates? lol

Ten years of unemployment as a software engineer (5, Insightful)

GoodNewsJimDotCom (2244874) | about 10 months ago | (#45636811)

I'm just getting off about ten years of unemployment as a software engineer. I'm competent, I graduated from Carnegie Mellon University, and my major pass time at home is programming. For whatever reason I couldn't seem to find a job. I put out thousands of resumes on monster and Dice, but had less than ten interviews in ten years. Thankfully I just recently got a job doing hardware. It is just weird what this world can do to you. No matter how much talent you have, or how hard you work, if no one wants to give you a chance, the world is a rough place. I think lots of people are seeing this today with the lack of jobs for even talented individuals.

Anyway, that is my point. There are plenty of talented and educated people in this country. The tech companies just don't want to pay a fair wage in a regular display of union busting. I know my story might be on the edge of a bellcurve, but I'm just saying I understand personally what it is like to never get a chance at a job. If you don't watch, it can grind into your very self worth.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (1)

fredprado (2569351) | about 10 months ago | (#45636891)

That is weird. Maybe you were asking for too much or your specific area of expertise is obsolete. I say that because I don't see many people having that much trouble finding a programmer job. The programmer market is still very on the side of offer. Outsourcing and H-1B are surely pushing into the other direction but we are not quite there yet.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636937)

bizarre. I get a ton of postings and emails from recruiters all the time and my linkedIn profile is not that good.

I find this hard to believe, but I did not post this, so......

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (2)

Trepidity (597) | about 10 months ago | (#45637733)

There's an odd preference for already-employed people, so there's this kind of self-reinforcing phenomenon where, if you already have a job, you can easily get five job offers, but if you have no job, you can't get any job offers. Especially true if you've been unemployed for a non-negligible period of time: 3 months or something is fine, looks like you're just between jobs, but 3 years and employers start to assume there must be some horrible dark reason, and pass on the resume. Basically a variety [wikipedia.org] of "social proof".

I suspect this is large part because companies have no reliable way of actually interviewing or screening potential hires, so they rely on these kind of tea-leaf-reading heuristics instead. Some of it is also that large companies are mostly looking to avoid bad hires, versus to get good hires. They might be passing up a great hire, but what they really care about is not hiring anyone who will rock the boat and cause problems.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637057)

If you're going to insist that he must be doing something wrong, focus on the fact that he's sending out resumes.

Unless you are very lucky, you don't get jobs by sending out resumes. The only reliable way to get a job is by having friends obtain them for you.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (1)

fredprado (2569351) | about 10 months ago | (#45637263)

In my experience you don't need either. You just need to have your name in any online database and offers will come to you.

Certainly having friends well placed will help you to get better jobs, I do not contend that, but you can manage well even without them.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636931)

At least Zuckerberg and Gates will be among the first up against the wall, come the revolution.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (1)

whoever57 (658626) | about 10 months ago | (#45636971)

Perhaps you should pay for a background check on yourself -- perhaps there is someone with a dubious history with the same name as you?

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636973)

I'm just getting off about ten years of unemployment as a software engineer.

How closely were your loss of your job and subsequent inability to get another one correlated with your claims of God talking to you? http://www.goodnewsjim.com/ [goodnewsjim.com]

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637053)

Sending out 'thousands of resumes' (or even hundreds) is usually a mistake. If you're mid-career (age 30 or above) you need to focus your efforts so you can be genuinely knowledgeable and up to date in certain areas (not just talk a good game, which experienced devs can see through).

There may be thousands of unfilled IT jobs out there, but there aren't thousands of openings for any one individual except perhaps for college interns and (perhaps) freshly minted college graduates with CS degrees.

BTW you misspelled "pastime". That's the kind of simple mistake that can send your cover letter/resume into the trash, so next time make sure someone looks over your resume, and think about hiring a coach.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (0)

phantomfive (622387) | about 10 months ago | (#45637299)

If you're not getting responses to your resume (happens to most people when they first start looking for a job) you need to rewrite your resume until you get responses.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637345)

you can not get a job because you are not as competent as you think you are, and demand too much for your level.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (3, Informative)

csumpi (2258986) | about 10 months ago | (#45637353)

OK, I'll bite No way you go 10 years unemployed as a software engineer in the US. Unless:

a. you are lazy
b. you are incompetent
c. you printed the website you have in your sig on your resume

But most likely, it's just all BS.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee (2)

Tablizer (95088) | about 10 months ago | (#45637531)

You have to remember, companies would rather have an H1B with marginal qualifications rather than a citizen with marginal qualifications. I've seen programmers struggle because they have poor people skills even though they take "people classes". Should they just change careers?

CS degrees come with skill gaps and BS / BA is to (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 10 months ago | (#45636939)

CS degrees come with skill gaps and BS / BA is to much class room time.

also IT jobs do not need CS much less 4 years pure class room

Re:CS degrees come with skill gaps and BS / BA is (1)

DigiShaman (671371) | about 10 months ago | (#45637171)

Credential inflation coupled with supply and demand in the market place. If you have more people looking for a job with CS degrees than positions available as an IT administrator, then a CS is a *requirement* as part of the criteria of not having your resume filtered out. HR has to cut the stack somewhere, or so that's their rational. And yes, a CS degree isn't needed to be an excellent IT administrator. Again, just required to get an interview.

Re:CS degrees come with skill gaps and BS / BA is (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637249)

CS is worthless to an average admin position. Why do you need four years of math and programming for when you aren't crunching numbers or writing code? Four years of classes in business, management, accounting, protocols, standards, and best practices is what IT people need.

Open borders (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636941)

Here is how I have been affected by our immigration "policy".

1) needed a tech from a Canadian company to go to Detroit to fix a system. He got turned back at the border. They had to get an American to come in and do the job days later.

2) a friend had her undocumented husband who lived & worked 20 years in the US and had teenage kids deported without warning after a misdemeanor traffic infraction.

3) A Danish family renting a house I own got thrown out of the country because of an H1B mixup, now I am out a few months of rent.

Screw it. I'm for open borders.

Blue collar society (4, Insightful)

Required Snark (1702878) | about 10 months ago | (#45636949)

The goal is to make every job in the US blue collar with no benefits. This is not hyperbole or metaphor.

I have friend with decades of film production experience and he is de facto unemployable. The jobs are outsourced, or filled by 1H-B holders. He can't find work outside the film industry because he is "overqualified". When he applies for retail like Target or Starbucks, they don't want him because younger workers are easier to push around and abuse.

If you think that you are immune because you are "a professional", just wait. Get 10 or 15 years of experience and watch that become the reason that you won't be hired.

Meanwhile, Wall Street hits new highs on a regular basis. There is a direct causal relationship going on here. The wealth going to the rich is being siphoned from the rest of society. If things don't change the US will have a economic/social structure like the Spanish speaking part of the Americas. Don't be surprised when this happens, you had plenty of warning.

Re:Blue collar society (1)

swillden (191260) | about 10 months ago | (#45637349)

If you think that you are immune because you are "a professional", just wait. Get 10 or 15 years of experience and watch that become the reason that you won't be hired.

Hmm. I have 26 years of experience. How much longer do I need to wait? I work with a couple of guys who've been professional programmers for nearly 40 years. The industry had better hurry up and ruin them pretty quickly, or they'll retire first.

Re:Blue collar society (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637813)

Congrats, you won the friend lottery. Now ask yourself what your position is compared to everyone who is equally qualified. You don't know that, do you?

Here's the cold, hard facts: For every one of you who win that fucking friend lottery, there are thousands of people who don't.

Re:Blue collar society (1)

khallow (566160) | about 10 months ago | (#45638213)

Here's the cold, hard facts: For every one of you who win that fucking friend lottery, there are thousands of people who don't.

That sort of observation is only relevant when a) it's actually a "fact", and b) a different bunch of "thousands of people" for each person who won the "friend lottery".

An actual survey [chicagotribune.com] found that more than half of all jobs offered were filled internally or by referral. That indicates to me that a lot of people, not merely one in a few thousand, found jobs via the "friend lobby".

I personally, have picked up at least three jobs via the "friend lottery". I don't think I'm even remotely unusual in that.

Re:Blue collar society (1)

Osgeld (1900440) | about 10 months ago | (#45637359)

since when is blue collar a problem?

that is right since the 1980's when some wanna be hipppy farts decided we are a country of innovators, repersenting less than 1% of the population, how well has that worked.

the industrial might of the united states was not gained by a bunch of middle managers with their cracker jack degrees bought from the local strip mall, but its downfall most definitely has been

Re:Blue collar society (2)

bickerdyke (670000) | about 10 months ago | (#45637643)

since when is blue collar a problem?

Perhaps the problem is rather "blue collar with no benefits" and perhaps no unions that would pave the way to a new manchester capitalism.

worker shortage and H-1B's (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45636965)

There is no shortage.
There NEVER has been a shortage in 30 + years.
We need to keep fighting this corporate marketing
effort that blights the American workforce.

We must remember that industrial efforts to sell this to
people worked so effectively in the late 80's early 90's
that every electronic and computer magazine, as well
as IEEE bought into this oz-land concept.

Please, people, stop buying this supposed shortage crap !!!

The need four-year degree is the issue as well (2)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 10 months ago | (#45636969)

The need four-year degree is the issue as well.

Most community colleges don't offer them

Lot's of IT / tech classes are offed non degree and some should be able to take classes and get some for doing that with out having to commit to the full degree time table.

Also the college Tenure system leads to people with little to no real IT skills teaching the classes VS community / tech schools with real pros teaching.

What about a TXT or free to cover basic health car (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 10 months ago | (#45636975)

basic health care plan for all you must pay an added H1B tax.

remove health benefits from jobs and that will hel (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 10 months ago | (#45637031)

remove health benefits from jobs and that will help with hiring older people.

"...but not the bottom billion." (1)

spmkk (528421) | about 10 months ago | (#45637083)

'An open door for the talented would help Facebook's bottom line,' Collier concludes, 'but not the bottom billion.'

By this definition of "help", the only way that the US can help even a small portion of the "bottom billion" is by becoming part of them, which isn't in the world's interests and certainly isn't in ours. This video [youtube.com] explains it very succinctly. At current immigration levels, the US population is slated to reach half a billion people by 2070, and top 625M by 2100.

Forget what this will do to our domestic standard of living -- consider what it will do to our ability to continue helping ANYONE in the developing world. With any luck, we will barely be able to maintain a poverty level here at home above that of today's banana republics.

What the hell is so wrong with having a meritocratic immigration system, i.e. an "open door for the talented"? It gives those people who are genuinely pushing the boundaries of opportunity in their native countries a chance to realize their potential, while also enabling them to contribute to developments that will almost certainly benefit those same native countries. Symbiotically, it gives the US an influx of talent that is somewhat less expensive, enabling those developments to take place more rapidly and thus driving commerce both here and abroad.

We can't take in the "bottom billion", and we won't do anyone any favors by killing ourselves trying. They have to, as the saying goes, bloom where they're planted. The best that we can do to help them is continue to contribute to the global economy, which we can do better with an increased talent pool that's achievable in part by being judicious about whom we take in.

Dear people stuck with bad jobs (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45637115)

Get a better job where you are! All the good jobs are for Americans only.

Signed - Paul Collier. American with a good job

WTF, Zuck? (0)

csumpi (2258986) | about 10 months ago | (#45637301)

I thought you wanted kids rotting their brains on your spam network. When would they have time to learn coding? Or you just trying to make it look like you are not just some money grabbing, stop at nothing asshole?

Re:WTF, Zuck? (2)

TheSeatOfMyPants (2645007) | about 10 months ago | (#45637407)

His plan is essentially to produce enough low-quality** "code monkey"programmers to mirror the situation in 'service' jobs (e.g. retail), where there's a great enough excess of would-be employees even without H1Bs to force wages down into the minimum-wage part-time range. The reduction in incomes tends to have a ripple effect up through the ranks, so companies like Facebook couldd be able to slash their payroll/benefits costs down to a tiny fraction of what they are now. The only people fucked over would be the people doing the actual work.

**Keep in mind that people living under those circumstances typically end up working two part-time jobs, under a great deal of stress, and not sleeping or eating terribly well; this means the vast majority of the talented ones too weary at the end of the day to focus on learning new skills, and thus would find it very, very difficult to rise above entry-point. The company wouldn't care, of course, as it will be able to continue hiring skilled/educated affluent new grads very cheaply, and the fear of potentially being replaced the same way is likely to keep them from even asking for a raise for a number of years even as they gain experience & learn new skills.

Re:WTF, Zuck? (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 10 months ago | (#45637495)

His plan is essentially to produce enough low-quality** "code monkey"programmers to mirror the situation in 'service' jobs (e.g. retail)

Come on. We ALL (and that includes Zuckerburg) know what a stupid plan that would be. Masses of simple coders produce only a tangled mess that would never work.

The thing is everyone needs GOOD coders, people who are really good at it are hard to come by. So the plan is to get a million or so people to try coding who would not otherwise, and a small percentage find they like code who would not have otherwise, and are good at it. They aren't thinking they are going to get a million coders out of it because no-one would have any use for them!

Re:WTF, Zuck? (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about 10 months ago | (#45638587)

yes they are trying to get an army of disposable low quality coders. Yes they need some good folks and will always need to some good folks to put together the infrastructure.

A company like facebook though is a little bit of technology developed by good people, and whole lot monkeys that know just enough about it string it together with the presentation layer.

paradoxial (2)

PC_THE_GREAT (893738) | about 10 months ago | (#45637435)

Agreed both Billgates and Zuckererg are great businessmen, but it is pushing it a bit too hard and too far to make them "exemplified coders", because on both of these characters resides charges (or rumors) of "having built an empire by taking other's codes". So I wonder what kind of good example that would be, "yeah son, steal or buy your friend's code, market it and be rich" :p, sure thing if you want to make your kid into a business man, bad if you want to have a bright kid just for the sake of brag right: "I fork problem solver"! +$3|v3n

H-1B cap would make US workers 'privileged elite' (2)

darthlurker (663459) | about 10 months ago | (#45637509)

Re:H-1B cap would make US workers 'privileged elit (1)

x0ra (1249540) | about 10 months ago | (#45637747)

Do you realize that some people might want to get a piece of the cake ? USA used to be a land of opportunities, it has merely became a land of privileges for those rightly born. I will not say that US workers are lazy, but if there is someone equally competent want it hard, there is barely anything you can do but toughen and get better. I know, this is pretty damn difficult. Asking question about oneself, accepting that you are not the best for a task is hard, but this is what make you stronger. If you want to hide yourself behind laws to make you life easier, fine, but don't come and whine when you start losing. All these immigration laws are just artificial protection to a way of life you no longer deserve. Wake up sweetheart !

Re:H-1B cap would make US workers 'privileged elit (1)

x0ra (1249540) | about 10 months ago | (#45637805)

Btw, yes, I am an immigrant in North America, coming from the old' Europe, currently in Canada, but YES, I *am* lurking hard to move south within the next 5 years. And YES, if that mean being a whore to a big tech company, I WILL be, without any remorse.

Looking back, I should probably have moved to the US first, but well... life...

immigration 'reformers'? Hang them for treason.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45638235)

anyone who advocates for more immigration or even advocates for anything less than an immigration moratorium is a traitor and should be tried and convicted of treason, to be punished by public hanging.

Period.

hang zuckerberg for treason (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45638251)

indict, try, convict and hang this traitorous zillionaire zuckerberg for treason.

hang this punk in public. I wanna be there when they stretch this punk's neck for treason.

zuck will twitch at the end of a rope (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 months ago | (#45638269)

zuckerberg should be indicted, tried and convicted for treason.

And when convicted he should be publicly hung. I wanna see this traitor twitch at the end of a long rope.

a public hanging is what he deserves.

and I am not advocating illegal actions here, you miserable punks.

Do it by rule of law. But hang this punk!

Stupidest fucking ad I ever saw (1)

nbauman (624611) | about 10 months ago | (#45638663)

The stupidest fucking public service ad I ever saw was the Hour of Code video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC5FbmsH4fw [youtube.com] on YouTube that Google linked to today on its home page.

It's full of women, minorities, older people, and every affirmative action group that has a lobby or a voting block behind it (with a few prominent product placements).

But it doesn't tell you anything about what code is. (Nor does http://csedweek.org/ [csedweek.org] )

There's nothing in here that would actually appeal to some kid who would be interested in code.

It's like the Richard Feynman critique of physics textbooks. You could replace "Hour of Code" with "Hip-Hop Dance" or "Basketball" or "Porn" and you wouldn't have to change the video.

They're just repeating a slogan.

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